General Exalted Thread XV: "We hate it and it looks adopted"

[Ifni]

...I note the Eclipse-bound oath only says to "report" for execution.

Well, she promised to go find the Chosen of Endings in question and not resist whatever she decided. (Said Chosen of Endings is her friend, and they've had lengthy discussions about trust, which look really prophetic in retrospect.)

... of course, as Maugan points out, her Dragon-Blooded husband made no such promise, and nor did anyone in authority in Lookshy. Since the entire thing is conditional on "when Lookshy has just defeated the Mask of Winters", and the Gold Faction apparently has prophecies indicating that the Eclipse in question will be critical to this victory*, it's possible there may be some other roadblocks in the way of her fulfilling her oath

*Probably because she's a former Thorns resistance leader with friendly contacts in the Silver Pact, the Realm and the Guild, and alliance-building is her schtick. It almost certainly isn't because of her combat capabilities - that's the other thing, if the Chosen of Endings wanted to assassinate her, it wouldn't actually be difficult (although admittedly considerably harder now that she has a Lovers' Oath with the combat-focused Fire Aspect).

[TimeWizard]

Ketchup Carjack hates Solars though, doesn't he? Why would he agree to this deal? I mean, I get selling him on Solars killing Abyssals is an easy sell, but the dude is the most powerful person in creation. You;d think he'd see through the legalese word choices and just convince you all to kill yourselves.

[Exthalion]

Ketchup Carjack hates Solars though, doesn't he? Why would he agree to this deal? I mean, I get selling him on Solars killing Abyssals is an easy sell, but the dude is the most powerful person in creation. You;d think he'd see through the legalese word choices and just convince you all to kill yourselves.

Thank goodness Sagacious Reading of Intent is E1, Linguistics 1, 3m, no prereq.

[The_Snark]

Ketchup Carjack hates Solars though, doesn't he? Why would he agree to this deal? I mean, I get selling him on Solars killing Abyssals is an easy sell, but the dude is the most powerful person in creation. You;d think he'd see through the legalese word choices and just convince you all to kill yourselves.

Sort of. He definitely doesn't trust them, at all, for reasons both logical and emotional, but hate may be too strong a word - it depends on your ST's particular spin on him. I think canon sources lean towards "doesn't hate", but there's room for interpretation.

But in this particular instance, I'm pretty sure he agreed to the deal because he wasn't planning on doing either of the things it forbids anyway. The only meaningful cost is that he has to support the liberation of Thorns, which was probably somewhere on his to-do list.

[Ifni]

Sort of. He definitely doesn't trust them, at all, for reasons both logical and emotional, but hate may be too strong a word - it depends on your ST's particular spin on him. I think canon sources lean towards "doesn't hate", but there's room for interpretation.

But in this particular instance, I'm pretty sure he agreed to the deal because he wasn't planning on doing either of the things it forbids anyway. The only meaningful cost is that he has to support the liberation of Thorns, which was probably somewhere on his to-do list.

Agreed, I think it's certainly a case of "yeah, sure, I was probably going to do that anyway". But (a) IC, the Eclipse wasn't at all sure of that, and (b) there's a gap between "he probably would" and "he's sworn to" - the latter is significantly less likely to change due to changing circumstances. (Similarly, on the Solar's end, she thinks that if he wanted to kill her he could do so pretty trivially, so swearing to make it even easier is not really costing her that much.)

His stated reason for not killing her immediately was that the Gold Faction has information indicating that she's important to defeating the Mask (who is about to try to conquer Lookshy), and he actually does care about defending Creation.

[Ronnoc]

O.k. I've got a storyteller/group herding question. I'm running a mixed splat play by post game in the heaven's reach shard. The circle includes a dawn caste solar hero stylist and a sidereal who has split her charms fairly evenly between violet bier of sorrows and the sidereal firearms tree.

Now we are only barely outside of character creation but looking at the numbers I cannot see how the sidereal is going to be able to stay even vaguely in the same ballpark combat wise with the solar.

Within martial arts and firearms is there anywhere I can point the sidereal towards to keep her relevant without breaking the game horribly. I've heard the horror stories about scroll of the monk content.

P.S. errata and ink monkeys material is in effect.

[Kyeudo]

You want to know how a Sidereal can stay in the same combat ballpark as a Solar without using Scroll of the Monk? I wasn't aware that was possible.

If you want the Sidereal to stay relevant, either get him into another niche (like manipulating people) or have him adopt a support role (such as with Throne Shadow Style) to make the Solar double awesome.

[Drascin]

Yeah, basically, here's the thing. A Sidereal trying to compete with a Solar in the Solar's area of expertise, whatever this is, loses. End of line. As a player, one has to either understand this and be okay with being sort of second banana (because honestly, superpowerful or not, everyone likes having someone having their back), or try for another niche.

[Ronnoc]

My player understands that she isn't going to be competing with the solar. What I am looking for is a cma that's a bit more efficacious than violet beir of sorrows and if possible a non broken sma for her to work towards. If that doesn't work I will recommend she stick to guns.

[industrious]

The only non-broken SMA is Sapphire Veils of Passion...the sex-based SMA.

Regarding great CMAs, Crane is considered among the best.

[Tavar]

Crane does have a few minor balance problems from what I remember, largely due to the 2.5 update and the resulting paradigm shift. Other than that....honestly, my experiences with Martial arts have largely consisted of disappointment. Outside of Crane and native martial arts charms, you generally don't get much, and usually you get a lot of overlap. No one needs 5 different Join Battle Enhancers.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The only non-broken SMA is Sapphire Veils of Passion...the sex-based SMA.

Well duh, that one is the highest priority for Exalted!

[HerrTenko]

Lately I've noticed Black Claw Style and Sapphire Veil of Passions Style tend to synergize very well. Black Claw helps create intimacies to play off of with SVoP.

Otherwise, outside of homebrew SMAs, I don't really see what could cut it. The Exalted Wiki used to have pretty good ones, but they're gone now, and I don't know if there's anywhere else you could find them.

[TimeWizard]

What does the player want? Do they want to be useful in combat, better than the Solar in combat, or better then the Solar in everything but combat?

If it's the first: dodge charms, excellencies, specialties. The Second: Sidereal Martial Arts- Charcoal March of Spiders is my favorite. The Third: invest in things the Solar isn't

[Ronnoc]

What does the player want? Do they want to be useful in combat, better than the Solar in combat, or better then the Solar in everything but combat?

If it's the first: dodge charms, excellencies, specialties. The Second: Sidereal Martial Arts- Charcoal March of Spiders is my favorite. The Third: invest in things the Solar isn't

She's looking for option number one. The sidereal is the only non-solaroid in the circle and I explained what that meant going in. The players are all recent converts from D&D so initially at least the game is going to be more combat oriented as that is a little more familiar to them.

[Tavar]

She's looking for option number one. The sidereal is the only non-solaroid in the circle and I explained what that meant going in. The players are all recent converts from D&D so initially at least the game is going to be more combat oriented as that is a little more familiar to them.

Go Throne Shadow style. Lots of party buffs and neat tricks.

[Guancyto]

Also, it lets you go "Chejop! What does the Lotus Eye Tactics say about his Martial Arts level?"

"It's... over nine!"

"What?! Nine?! There's no way that can be right!"

[TimeWizard]

Over nine? so ten? I don't think even Falafel has MA 10.

[HerrTenko]

TimeWizard, you've got to do something about all that Clarity you've got. It starts by just ruining jokes, but soon you'll be dreaming of electric sheep and stuff. It can't be good for you.

[Exthalion]

TimeWizard, you've got to do something about all that Clarity you've got. It starts by just ruining jokes, but soon you'll be dreaming of electric sheep and stuff. It can't be good for you.

Just imagine a turtle on its back.

[Gensh]

I posted on the Onyx Path board about the direction my Infernals project is going. Long story short, porting a cleaner version of the old Infernals won't really work because the way everything is set up somehow manages to make the Demon Realm boring. Note my ultimate solution in bold if nothing else.

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Right, so. First things first, I want to get an honest headcount of who was interested. If you're withholding judgment for mechanics; if you don't like how close to last edition's version my work was; if you like the thrust of the project but not the work itself; whatever you felt about it, I want to hear it so that I have an idea of where I should start in the coming weeks.

Next, I want to hear what each of you thinks are the three most fundamental aspects of the Infernal Experience. Feel free to discuss; likewise feel free to post without explanation and return to lurking.

Now for the rant:


So what have I been doing all these weeks? Months, actually. The answer is a resounding "nothing." A "nothing" so crisp and pure that the Bishop just popped a negaboner.

As for why, I'd said as much the last time I posted content; what I should be writing are the history of akuma and the selection process for the full Infernals. Except those are boring. Even if they were interesting, they'd still be boring on the grander scale. You'd only read them once; I'd give the passages the final edit and then never look at them again. So it was fundamentally busy work, and my motivation withered like your sex drive did when I mentioned the Bishop's wrinkly old rod.

More importantly, this aspect of boredom really does apply to the project as a whole. I'm breathing new life into the old Infernals, but it's still just the old Infernals. My Reclamation is a concept and an excuse to have wild parties during Calibration while accomplishing all of nothing rather than a grand master plan worthy of a printed scenario, but it's still a Reclamation. Even if I strike the word from the conversion, there is going to be some capitalized word referring to the bull**** excuse as to why Infernals should be acting in Creation. Generally speaking, without that bull****, you'd have some Infernals who adventured in Creation because they have unfinished business there from their former life and some Infernals who decided to simply let Creation rot because the Demon Realm at least has the dignity to admit that it's hell.

Not to mention, Infernals is rather obviously Abyssals 2.0. Aside from being written as a villain splat, everything, from acquiring permanent mutations through Charms to corrupting the geomancy of Creation failed to take off in Abyssals and then sort of floated around in Infernals without really ever reaching their full height. The only real difference is that the Yozis are active forces rather than passive ones, and all that managed to accomplish was making their Deathlords - the third circle - irrelevant. My conversion puts a patch on this, but it's not something that can really be changed.

So if the antagonist quality and unique powers do not make Infernals stand out, perhaps the unique and exotic geography of Malfeas does? Nope. I honestly have not read any of that material start-to-finish beside the very brief original chapter in Games of Divinity. This is a problem, because I like Exalted more than I like D&D 3.X's generic Greyhawk knockoff, but I have on the other hand read several of those setting manuals cover-to-cover. If I discover something in Malfeas that I've missed, I'm briefly excited and then promptly forget about it.

It's all intellectually interesting, but it lacks the sensory wow factor, the potential for personalized character hooks, and simple ability to create interesting stories. As bad as the D&D material occasionally was, it rarely failed to produce a moment where I stopped to say, "I can use this." Even Exalted's second edition Core had this, though it was more along the lines of "Wow, Sol is a douche. Lemme go find some god-kicking boots." Again, I tried to patch this with the Exalt-driven Mystery Cults and non-demon allies/enemies such as Mare and the hydra of the plateau, but a patch is a patch - it can only do so much. I did actually write up another Cult during my absence, but I quickly decided it was bull**** and threw it out. No matter how much I add, the Demon Realm is fundamentally stagnant - the ironic far end of Chaos.

So what am I doing, then?

I've decided to figure out what the questions are before trying to answer them.

• What can Infernals do in the Demon Realm? Other than whores?
• Why do non-Infernals want to go to the Demon Realm?
• Why would Infernals give up their glory in the Demon Realm to do anything in Creation? Some will have a desire to save or oppress humanity yes, but what about the sane/lazy ones?
• Why would akuma sign the contract? Infernal Charms are a nice temptation, but it should go deeper.

There are probably some others I've forgotten, but you see where I'm going. Whether the Infernals are preparing for all-out war against Creation or are vessels through which the Yozis might experience a faint bit of freedom, the reason why an Infernal would leave hell is relatively weak, boiling down to "the Yozis kicked me out of the house until I get a real job." But just the same, the reasons for Infernals to stay and other Exalts to come are boring.

So what am I doing with what I'm doing, then?

I've decided that I should probably scrap about half of the written content. For example, the entire nobility section drew all of zero fanfare. If it's not outright excellent, it gets cut. Originally, I'd set certain length goals, but **** that; it needs to be perfect. On that note, I'm also scrapping the signature characters. They were all interesting in their own right, but they weren't visually distinctive. Even if someone other than I were doing the art, they'd still be a little stale. The signature characters need to look like they belong in Skullgirls or something. It'll be easier to start from scratch than try to rebuild them.

As for distinctiveness, art is important. I still don't have an artist. I've been practicing a little, but I'm still pretty crap at it. So I'm turning to prostitution. When the revamped project finally gets off the ground, send me your commissions. For each one I put in the pdf, one of your characters will get a name drop. And not one of those ****ty "onscreen for a single moment before dying horribly" ones. You want to have teatime with Lillun, you get teatime with Lillun. I wish I could offer more than the dubious honor of inclusion in a fanbook, but them's the breaks.

So what should you get out of this rant?

Yozi Civil War.

And of course remember your Moorcock, kids - there's always something worse out there - even something worse than the Yozis, haha~!

[Sith_Happens]

My first thought was that this reminds me of the witches from Madoka Magica. My next thought was that "Think 'Madoka Magica witch's labyrinth'" would probably make a great visual description for the Wyld.

[Rikandur Azebol]

For Gensh:

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What can Infernals do in the Demon Realm? Other than whores?

Same old, same old. Chosen pawns-agents that are totally expendable ... unlike rest of the Demon Realm these can be acquired from outside and their loss isn't another unrecoverable loss.

Why do non-Infernals want to go to the Demon Realm?

Power. Demon Realm does not play by Creation's rules and Fate does not apply there.

Why would Infernals give up their glory in the Demon Realm to do anything in Creation? Some will have a desire to save or oppress humanity yes, but what about the sane/lazy ones?

Creation/Wyld is a resource site that isn't limited. Yozis are FORBIDDEN from creating. And each time they change themselves they sink deeper into "Bound Hellish Horrors" theme wich does not sit well with former Primordials.

If you take stuff from Creation/Wyld ... you can safely experiment on foreign material without risking further degradation.

Why would akuma sign the contract ? Infernal Charms are a nice temptation, but it should go deeper.

There are demons out there who actively seek agents and look for opportunities to give first dose free.

Example:
Second Circle Demon to vengeful demonologist:"I will grant you PoWeR for time needed to fulfill your revenge. For proper price, lets say you'll curse those you slay for your revenge to be bound to me in exchange. I'll make sure they suffer for seven lifetimes. For wronging you so horribly my friend."
*some time later*
Demonologist:"I did my revenge, Great One. But now ... I remember the glory of your power and find my limits shackling."
2CD:"Yes, you aged ... your body wastes away. I could sponsor you, but to keep such power and offset your limits ... it'll require compensation in regular intervals. Plus if you break this contract we will never speak again."
Demonologist:"I don't care, I can send souls and sacrifice lives to you ! I need that power to stop being just another mortal bug."

Power is addictive. Especially when you were powerless before, tasted it and become powerless again.

Akuma thus should be those addicted to demonic power, bestowed upon them temporarily or requiring certain activities to re-charge. Why hollow their souls and make them mere extensions of yourself ? You can give them first taste free of charge.

First Circles would need Sorcery to try gaining such agent (god-blooded stat wise), Second Circles would need proper charm or Sorcery(dragon-blooded stat wise) and Third Circles could get Celestial Level minions this way ... while Yozis could empower champions equal to Solars in raw power.

Yozi Civil War.

Please. It's Tuesday. I mean its Yozi Cold War. For resources taken from Creation as it gives them flimsy hope ... while reality of Malfeas gives only assuredness of degradation.

And of course remember your Moorcock, kids - there's always something worse out there - even something worse than the Yozis, haha~!

Of course there are. Some Yozis had degraded beyond point of salvation and have to be kept under thumb by legions of demons sacrificing their lives daily to prevent their contagious madness from spreading and infecting relatively sane Yozis. Cause Hell is bad enough and if were all Yozis go as bad ...

Neverborn whisper to their still active counterparts, instilling them with the suicidal insanity and destructive thoughts. And what Primordial thinks takes shape.

Oramus writhes in his forced coma, unable to warn his siblings, while his Forge the infamous Without looms ... and there are rumors that whenever Ebon Dragon moves nearby he hastily withdraws.

The only being that kept all from jumping at each other throats, Demon King Malfeas ... shows signs of weakening. And if Contagious Madness break him further, he'll become King of Ruin. That Ebon Dragon will weep in sorrow ...

Yozis dimly remember Others, Primordials that didn't liked Creation's project ... or who refused Holy Tyrant's claim of dominion and fled. There are concerns that they might be still observing ... or worse, returning.

What's worse than infighting and degradation is one simple fact.
Yozis ran out of time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7gjTHypJZ0 an appropriate soundtrack

[TimeWizard]

TimeWizard, you've got to do something about all that Clarity you've got. It starts by just ruining jokes, but soon you'll be dreaming of electric sheep and stuff. It can't be good for you.

And into the Sig it goes. EDIT: except it won't show in this post. oh my.

[Lix Lorn]

My first thought was that this reminds me of the witches from Madoka Magica. My next thought was that "Think 'Madoka Magica witch's labyrinth'" would probably make a great visual description for the Wyld.

It and his last sentence were making me think of either Welcome to Night Vale or of Monobear from Dangan Ronpa.

Personally, I like old Infernals. Patching the holes in their charmsets and adding new charmsets is all I really want for them, so I'm no help at all whee

(I can't even draw)

[TimeWizard]

@LIX

I liked the way their charm layout worked, it was unique and cool

[Lix Lorn]

Do you mean the yozi based charmtrees?

[TimeWizard]

Yeah. I thought that idea was really cool. Solar/Abyssal get Skill based charm trees, Lunar get Stat based charm trees, Infernals get Ideology based charm trees. It was novel and cool.

[Lix Lorn]

Agreed! the biggest problem was that each tree wasn't self contained, although there are practical reasons.

[Gensh]

My first thought was that this reminds me of the witches from Madoka Magica. My next thought was that "Think 'Madoka Magica witch's labyrinth'" would probably make a great visual description for the Wyld.

Very close. Except for the part about the Wyld, anyway. One aspect that was going to be overhauled from the very beginning was the use of geomancy Charms. It's just that I can't write any Charms without the corebook, haha. Infernals are going to be able to make use of environmental effects very early on, ending with forcing foes to fight them within their Inner Worlds - their Labyrinths.

Mind, the Mark of the Monarch has nothing to do with the Infernals themselves...

I'm not telling what it is in-setting until everything else is in place, but for the manual itself, I'm taking a cue from the For Dummies series and marking certain important passages with it. In the manual, the Mark indicates the butterfly effect. Basically, "here's an interesting idea for your game, but consider all the consequences first."

And by "interesting idea," I mean "What if the Scarlet Empress and Malfeas were drinking buddies of tyranny?"

Akuma thus should be those addicted to demonic power, bestowed upon them temporarily or requiring certain activities to re-charge. Why hollow their souls and make them mere extensions of yourself ? You can give them first taste free of charge.

This is actually an interesting idea. It's different from how I've got akuma set up at the moment, but it might actually work better with the practical effects of the Civil War.

Please. It's Tuesday. I mean its Yozi Cold War. For resources taken from Creation as it gives them flimsy hope ... while reality of Malfeas gives only assuredness of degradation.

It's more than a simple spat at one another. When the Empyreal Chaos descended upon Zen-Mu, some of the Primordials refused him and would rather stand with Mardukth, whom they all hated. Why, then, do the Yozis acknowledge broken Malfeas as King? The Surrender Oaths? It should be fine so long as they're not actually trying to leave, right?

Or so the Separatists think. No matter what they might suffer going to war against the Tyrant, it's better than continuing to burn forever under the light of the Green Sun. Plus, they're pretty sure his mind is...slipping.

In this scenario, rather than joining the giant ridiculous mass that is the Reclamation, you'd create an Infernal character as a Loyalist, Separatist, or outright Rebel. This is going to create some holes in your Charmset. There's going to be a black market to fix them, but I've not really got anything solid yet.

Personally, I like old Infernals. Patching the holes in their charmsets and adding new charmsets is all I really want for them, so I'm no help at all whee

Roughly speaking, the Infernals themselves are staying the same; it's the environment which is being made more exciting. You still get Vitriolic Corona Endowment, but you get it by having a Mulan training montage with Gervesin. Or by eating the memories of some Loyalist scum who had a training montage with Gervesin.