OOTS #1143 - The Discussion Thread

[Rogar Demonblud]

Thor certainly knows how to give a pep talk. I guess it comes with the territory.

Once again, what we need isn't just a cleric. We need Durkon. Though I wonder if we actually need Redcloak himself. I mean, this'll probably shake up to be an interesting character arc for him too, but, in theory, it can be any powerful cleric for the Dark One, right?

As long as that cleric is at least 17th level, sure.

Redcloak may well be the only cleric of The Dark One with double digit levels.

[Bluepaw]

Ohhhhhh I really like where this is going.

[Liquor Box]

I thought about writing a complicated and unnecessarily long-winded reply but I think this gets the issue with your point across much more efficently.

It is important to a story that people act somewhat realistically within the setting (so if the setting allows magic, using magic is of course realistic). Every update we have threads predicting what may happen, what a person will do, or opining on why a character did a thing - any such speculation is founded on the assumption that characters will act somewhat realistically within the context of their setting. I think the OotS generally caters well to the importance of characters acting realistically, and I hope it does not depart from that.

In this strip, we see the Giant lampshading the unrealism of using conversation skills to get implausible outcomes (or altering reality as Hayley refers to it) as a joke. I think it would be disappointing if the major plot point of the entire comic was resolved in such a way:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0768.html

Liquor Box is also missing the obvious third option: trick Redcloak into casting the spell the Order needs.

You're right, i did miss that option. Not sure how feasible it is though - probably depends on whether he just has to cast a spell in the general direction of the rift, or whether it has to be a particular spell with the purpose of adding his god's quiddity to the equation.

[Wowlock]

"Sorry for trying to kill you. And I know that this is going to ruin your plans, you god's current plans, and especially your (comedically temperamental) nominal boss's plans, but...can you help us seal the gates?"
Yeah, we're going to need some very special circumstances, pronto.

Well Durkon simply can say '' Redcloak, all your people and probably your God will be Snarl food if you don't help close those rifts. '' And I do believe Redcloak is smarter than letting a petty power grab that will eventually destroy everything, along with his people, happen. If not, well then he and his God deserve their fate.

[Crisis21]

This comic actually brings some interesting context to the collective votes of the Southern and Western pantheons in comic #999. To recap: The Western Gods voted in favor of destroying the world and the Southern Gods voted against (which, incidentally, means that the Northern Gods were the tie-breaker vote if anyone's interested in adding an extra layer to the current tie-breaker recursion).

What does this mean in respect to this comic? Well, consider what Thor said about the Western pantheon: The only deity from that pantheon even aware that the Dark One exists is Tiamat. As far as the rest of them are concerned, nothing at all is different about this run than any of the others. (Also, why does Tiamat know and the others don't? She has influence - and thus interests - outside the Western continent, as evidenced by her being the Oracle's patron deity.)

The Southern pantheon on the other hand is very aware that the Dark One exists... and they voted against destroying the world. How many of them did so for reasons similar to Thor's? Even after considering that the Dark One's people basically uprooted their major seat of influence?

Leaving aside the difference between realism, verisimilitude and believability, Liquor Box is also missing the obvious third option: trick Redcloak into casting the spell the Order needs.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the spell needs to be cast deliberately for the purpose it will be used to accomplish. Meaning the only way to trick him would be to outright lie about whatever is promised to convince him in the first place, which not only woudn't sit well with Redcloak when he learns about it but also likely wouldn't sit well with several of the other members of the Order.

Plus, you have to consider that Redcloak needs to do this five times, not one.

[Sloanzilla]

I wonder if there are any feats where you can use your wisdom bonus instead of your charisma bonus on diplomacy rolls?

Durkon has that feat in my headcanon.

[Liquor Box]

Well Durkon simply can say '' Redcloak, all your people and probably your God will be Snarl food if you don't help close those rifts. '' And I do believe Redcloak is smarter than letting a petty power grab that will eventually destroy everything, along with his people, happen. If not, well then he and his God deserve their fate.

Doesn't Redcloak already know about the Snarl and everything though? Redcloak's master plan relies on the Snarl potentially wreaking havoc and killing the gods, to blackmail the gods. The latest comic explicitly states that the dark one knows the secret of the Snarl, so no information that Durkon gives Redclaok will be new.

[GM_3826]

Well Durkon simply can say '' Redcloak, all your people and probably your God will be Snarl food if you don't help close those rifts. '' And I do believe Redcloak is smarter than letting a petty power grab that will eventually destroy everything, along with his people, happen. If not, well then he and his God deserve their fate.

The problem is convincing him of that. It's true that if he realizes just how big of a threat the Snarl is he should back down, but people don't always think logically. Because, you know, they're people.

[DougTheHead]

If I had to guess what could possibly turn Redcloak, I'd have to say that this is where Jirix squishing the cockroach comes into play. Redcloak gave Azure City to the goblins because he wants to prove that they are just as capable of creating and maintaining civilization as any of the sentient races; if it's somehow revealed to Redcloak that Jirix went Full Self-Destructive Dictator immediately after Xykon and he disappeared, that might put just enough doubt in his mind to compromise--he would still have plenty of excuses for the goblins, but he might get just enough doubt to think that maybe a more cooperative approach to sealing the rifts is necessary.

[GM_3826]

If I had to guess what could possibly turn Redcloak, I'd have to say that this is where Jirix squishing the cockroach comes into play. Redcloak gave Azure City to the goblins because he wants to prove that they are just as capable of creating and maintaining civilization as any of the sentient races; if it's somehow revealed to Redcloak that Jirix went Full Self-Destructive Dictator immediately after Xykon and he disappeared, that might put just enough doubt in his mind to compromise--he would still have plenty of excuses for the goblins, but he might get just enough doubt to think that maybe a more cooperative approach to sealing the rifts is necessary.

Are you sure that that was not just a joke?

[KorvinStarmast]

From a story perspective it adds an interesting ethical question as well - is torture justified when it's the only way to save the world?

Rich is writing OoTS, not the TV show 24.

Do we think that magically compelling Redcloak to cast the spell would work?

Haley; what she does is beyond magic, and defies reason.

Insofar as your suggestion regarding torture: Belkar will be for it, Roy will not. That conversation, if there is one, will be very, very short. It's outcome is known.

[dtilque]

If the Dark One is truly around and making 1/4, or even considerably less than that as long as it's some, of the decisions, that won't matter.

If they destroy this world and build another as a result of the Godsmoot, the Dark One will not be involved in that building. He doesn't have any agreement with them to participate, so the three pantheons are not going to give him any decisions about it. OK, he could try to intrude, but that will just produce Snarl 2.0.

So panel 3 in this one is Thor's version of panel 3, page 40 of SRD.

That Panel was the Dark One's version as told to Redcloak. In that version Loki was behind the Dark One, not between them.

The SoD version is in crayons. Anything drawn in crayons is not to be considered perfectly accurate. It's all told second or third or even tenth hand and details may be wrong.

[Ruck]

From the sense of the kind of story being told, how stories are more powerful when characters make their own decisions and are held to the consequences, and that Rich himself has said the latter regarding character deaths:

Redcloak won't be tortured into joining the heroes to seal the gate, because our heroes are in a classically heroic tale, not a gritty and grimdark one about antiheroes who have to become monsters to beat monsters.

Redcloak also won't be tricked or magically compelled into sealing the gate, because it cheapens the impact of the story if his own agency is taken out of the decision.

If they destroy this world and build another as a result of the Godsmoot, the Dark One will not be involved in that building. He doesn't have any agreement with them to participate, so the three pantheons are not going to give him any decisions about it. OK, he could try to intrude, but that will just produce Snarl 2.0.

So... he's potentially in an even better position to blackmail the other gods?

[ackmondual]

There are 3 OotS board games...
Dungeon Of Durakan
The Shortening (shorter version of the above)
and Linear Guild which IIRC is the expansion to the first.


It could be really awesome and epic if they made a board game taking place on the immortal planes, the various gods, the Dark One, and the Snarl. THAT is what the "wheeling and dealing" bg should've been (nm the DoD takes a bit too long, but I prefer to play that as a full-co-op... no backstabbing).

[Rrmcklin]

If they destroy this world and build another as a result of the Godsmoot, the Dark One will not be involved in that building. He doesn't have any agreement with them to participate, so the three pantheons are not going to give him any decisions about it. OK, he could try to intrude, but that will just produce Snarl 2.0.



The SoD version is in crayons. Anything drawn in crayons is not to be considered perfectly accurate. It's all told second or third or even tenth hand and details may be wrong.

From the way Thor describes it here, the Dark One doesn't participate in things because he doesn't want to. But if he wants to be involved and the others say no, that's just asking for another Snarl to be created, and none of them want that.

If he tries to force his way in, they are not going to say no.

[Riarra]

Maybe convincing Hilgya to resurrect Durkon is the Order's trial run before they move on to Redcloak.

[Windscion]

re: Xykon.
Xykon thinks that if the world is destroyed, his soul will regenerate inside his astral fortress.
He is almost certainly mistaken, since RC handed him a fake phylactery (831, 833).
Therefore, Xykon may well be willing to let the world burn, altho that isn't his primary plan.

Convincing RC to change the plan would be really hard. Ironically, this may be where Xykon is useful. Depending upon how Xykon backstabs RC, it might push RC to listen to the Order. However, this would only seem likely if Xykon's chosen method was a huge freaking bomb/plague/curse poised to destroy Gobbotopia if RC doesn't play along.

Convincing TD1 is similarly challenging, since he is clearly not listening.

TLDR: Expect cooperation only after RC has been stripped of all other options.

[Borris]

I like how panel 4 puts into perspective why gods like Tyr, Skadi, and Sunna (I think) would want to end the current world right away.

[LadyEowyn]

Based on what we've seen in the last few comics, I do think we will see the Order and Redcloak working together. It fits best with what's been revealed - the fact that containing the Snarl requires to gods to come to an accommodation with the goblins - and with what Rich has shown us in of his beliefs, especially in GDGU. He will not write this comic that leaves an unjust status quo unaddressed.

I don't know yet how it will happen, but I'm confident that Rich can do it in a way that I find realistic. It won't be an easy path for any of the characters - least of all for Redcloak - but it can happen.

There are at least two possibilities for acieving it that I can see, though likely Rich will do something else I'm not expecting. First, Redcloak could, after considerable effort and conflict, be convinced that an option that achieves the Plan's goals - goblinoid equality - without risking the world's destruction is worthwhile, especially if it helps him get rid of Xykon in the process. Xykon is the main villain of the strip, Rich has said, and that means the Order and Redcloak have a common enemy. It's been clear ever since the retrieval of the phylactery that Redcloak is counting down the days until he can be rid of Xykon (and therefore finds the indefinite dungeon-crawl of the final Gate galling).

A second option is that Redcloak could be faced with the imminent danger of the Rift above Gobbotopia consuming the city, and have to choose between losing the city or helping the Order seal the Rift.

Regardless, his character arc is very far from over.

[Crisis21]

Oooo... all this talk about stuff from SoD made me remember something:

Spoiler: SoD spoilers

Show

Redcloak and Right-Eye reveal in Start of Darkness that the three pantheons explicitly created goblins (and possibly other 'monster' races) to serve as XP fodder for their clerics (and by extension other adventurers). The Dark One learned about this upon ascension to godhood and was pissed. This information, to my knowledge, hasn't been shared with any of the protagonists yet. Imagine if Redcloak drops that particular bomb during negotiations.

[Larre Gannd]

Oooo... all this talk about stuff from SoD made me remember something:

Spoiler: SoD spoilers

Show

Redcloak and Right-Eye reveal in Start of Darkness that the three pantheons explicitly created goblins (and possibly other 'monster' races) to serve as XP fodder for their clerics (and by extension other adventurers). The Dark One learned about this upon ascension to godhood and was pissed. This information, to my knowledge, hasn't been shared with any of the protagonists yet. Imagine if Redcloak drops that particular bomb during negotiations.

I feel like Thor might mention it soon, because I am guessing that if Thor wants the order on board with negotiations, then he’ll need to be fully transparent.

[rbetieh]

So what would happen to the dark one if the world is un-made? No more Goblins anymore, no seat at the table to help create the world....

[ManuelSacha]

So let me get this straight.
Is Thor's plan to get Redcloak's cooperation... with or without the Dark One's approval?
I mean, it's a hard sell to make.
I agree that Redcloak seems the most reasonable out of the two, but he's also received some very clear and direct orders from the Dark One.
He's had no qualms about fooling Xykon, but I don't see him disobeying his god.

[Crisis21]

So let me get this straight.
Is Thor's plan to get Redcloak's cooperation... with or without the Dark One's approval?
I mean, it's a hard sell to make.
I agree that Redcloak seems the most reasonable out of the two, but he's also received some very clear and direct orders from the Dark One.
He's had no qualms about fooling Xykon, but I don't see him disobeying his god.

Maybe, but I honestly think that Thor would realize the inherent folly of trying to convince a cleric to directly oppose their own god.

It's more likely that given the lack of options Thor has of contacting the Dark One directly and that most gods probably aren't generally in the business of listening to any mortal that doesn't follow them directly, that Thor is going for the next best option: Having one of his clerics contact the Dark One's high cleric and essentially conducting the negotiations by proxy (and not necessarily the summoned kind). Because clerics aren't just followers of their god, they're representatives of their god in the mortal realm.

[JackRackham]

TDO refusing to speak with the other gods (could be understandable or) could cast this in a different light. It's entirely possible that he does not *want* simply to negotiate for better treatment of the goblins, but actually wants to shift a gate to the outer planes to negotiate for his own power. He IS an evil deity, after all.

If that turns out to be the case, I'm not sure his interests align with Redcloak's. For all his faults, I suspect RC really is in it for the good of goblins. So, things could get very, very interesting.

[godsflunky]

I was getting seriously bummed about the world's chances until the last panel. Then I laughed out loud and knew we'd be fine.

It'll be a wild ride, and I can't wait to see all the twists and turns, but we'll be fine.

This is gonna be great.

[MaverickMopete]

"A 10% chance is pretty unlikely, but everybody knows that a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing!"

Wouldn't you say Durkon's odds of convincing Redcloak to go along with this are one in a million?

[woweedd]

"A 10% chance is pretty unlikely, but everybody knows that a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing!"

Wouldn't you say Durkon's odds of convincing Redcloak to go along with this are one in a million?

Well, yes, but there's always the risk they're one in nine hundred ninety-nine thousand nine hundred ninety-nine. You need the sweet spot. Narrative don't settle for rounding-up.

[RMS Oceanic]

I don't think Redcloak will be tricked or coerced into helping. He has his own character arc, and I think Rich will be able to have it intersect with Durkon in an interesting way. It's a very hard thing he's asked to do, because we don't see how it comes about, but I have faith it will be satisfying.

[hamishspence]

Spoiler: SOD Spoiler

Show

Has it ever been confirmed how the cloak works? Not being obstreperous, genuinely asking.

The example I'm pulling from is when Redcloak, brand new cleric initiate, instantly Smites a Paladin after receiving the cloak. The cloak raises the caster's power somehow, either from granting a list of spells or spell like abilities for the day, or maybe from increasing the caster's level. In the former case, even if that spell list doesn't allow Heal, it's possible there's other high level spells stored in the cloak. In the latter, if Jirix is a high enough level, the cloak could give him the boost he needs to able to do so.

I figured that was just the Destruction domain ability.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists...tructionDomain