OOTS #1143 - The Discussion Thread

[Ruck]

I've speculated previously on how Durkon might have enough shared experiences with Redcloak to convince him to at least listen to him, but this is also a case where I wonder if Durkon's poor charisma actually works in his favor-- given Redcloak's intelligence and wisdom (I presume), I imagine he's going to be a difficult sell if he thinks whoever brings up the idea is lying to him-- but Durkon is easily the member of the Order least likely to do that, between his general Lawfulness / trustworthiness, and his lack of the charisma necessary to Bluff people.

I wonder if this will be explicitly mentioned by Thor.

[Keltest]

"You pulled off one miracle, what's another?"

Thor expects a lot out of his Durkon, don't he?

The reward for work well done is more work.

[vivalanapoleon]

Diplomacy might not even be necessary. Redcloak is special only in the sense that he's literally wearing the red cloak, right? Could Durkon don it and access the Dark One's quiddity during the sealing ritual? Could the cloak be used directly to fuel it?

[Ruck]

Wow! This is amazing! I have to wonder, was this Rich's plan for the dark one all along (well, obviously after DCF, when he made a plan and set up the plot), or is this random stuff pulled out recently?

I very much doubt that it was "random stuff pulled out recently."

Diplomacy might not even be necessary. Redcloak is special only in the sense that he's literally wearing the red cloak, right? Could Durkon don it and access the Dark One's quiddity during the sealing ritual? Could the cloak be used directly to fuel it?

The cloak only works for an actual priest of the Dark One, as I understand it. So, no.

[Rrmcklin]

Diplomacy might not even be necessary. Redcloak is special only in the sense that he's literally wearing the red cloak, right? Could Durkon don it and access the Dark One's quiddity during the sealing ritual? Could the cloak be used directly to fuel it?

No, because Durkon isn't a priest of the Dark One. And Thor specifically mentions "even a 9th level spell would be enough" or something, and Durkon isn't capable of those.

[Gift Jeraff]

How fitting that Durkon was originally lied to by Hurak about Thor sending him on a divine mission of diplomacy.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Wow! This is amazing! I have to wonder, was this Rich's plan for the dark one all along (well, obviously after DCF, when he made a plan and set up the plot), or is this random stuff pulled out recently?

Rich turned OOTS from a joke-a-day to a longform-story comic pretty early--probably around the time Elan cast Summon Exposition and the strip suddenly grew a plot. The exact details may have been in flux, but the outline was set long ago and whole scenes crafted at the beginning have had almost no alteration when eventually released (cf Durkon Turns Undead).

[hroþila]

All they need is to defeat Team Evil, capture Redcloak, tell him what's what and have Elan wear him down by repeatedly saying "Pretty please?" until he agrees to cooperate.

[Psychronia]

Thor certainly knows how to give a pep talk. I guess it comes with the territory.

Once again, what we need isn't just a cleric. We need Durkon. Though I wonder if we actually need Redcloak himself. I mean, this'll probably shake up to be an interesting character arc for him too, but, in theory, it can be any powerful cleric for the Dark One, right?

[faustin]

Sigh..after so many eons and so many worlds built and destroyed by the Snarl, the Gods haven't learned yet to play along. That's the true tragedy.

[Grey Pilgrim]

The fact that in this comic world Loki is brother to Thor bothers me way more than it should

[Linneris]

It took me a while to realize that the lines in panel 2 were a close-up on Thor rather than some symbolic representation of new mini-Snarls threatening to spring between the quarreling gods.

The comic itself has mostly confirmed what we forumites had already inferred, but it's nice to have a confirmation of both what happened between the gods and the new quest that Durkon has received.

[Shining Wrath]

First of all, I ever got the snes XYkon feared death much. He used that phrase as a rhetorical device and he became a Lich on a lark. Also, you act like Xyon could nto easily kill Redcloak if he wanted. Redcloak controls him in the same way your cat controls you:It may think it's in charge, but you're still in total control.

Xykon may not have many ranks in religion, but he knows damn well what happens to a CE mass-murderer when they die, and it's not to become a Demon Lord with dominion over all they survey.

The reward for work well done is more work.

"Unless properly managed, work flows to the competent person until they submerge".

The fact that in this comic world Loki is brother to Thor bothers me way more than it should

That's also canon in the Norse religion; both were sons of Odin, but by different mothers.

Spoiler: And in the MCU.

Show

https://youtu.be/EsghUIbr2TQ

[RMS Oceanic]

Wow, that's a tall order.

Hope you've got something a little stronger than "pwetty pwease" to persuade them Thor, because Durkon's hidden persuasion power doesn't sound like it will be nearly enough to sell "instead of using this thing to empower your god, help us put it beyond anyone's reach".

[Vessyra]

Oh! I know how the Dark One can be convinced; all the deities need to do is is give Dark One this amazing fashion tip:

More spikes.

Because seriously, who doesn't want to look great in front of their followers?

[Fyraltari]

That's also canon in the Norse religion; both were sons of Odin, but by different mothers.

Spoiler: And in the MCU.

Show

https://youtu.be/EsghUIbr2TQ

Uh. No. Pretty sure that in Norse mythology, Loki is Odin's blood brother (that is through a blood pact not biological) which makes him Thor's uncle, if anything.

[Roland Itiative]

So, let's say RC eventually comes around to the idea. I'm assuming that by "the process of closing the rifts", Thor means the making of new Gates, with RC as the divine caster. This brings two problems to my mind:

1- The Gates still exist, and so does the Ritual, perpetuating the risk of the Gates being used against the gods (specially if RC double-crosses TDO while doing it, without the god ever giving up on his Plan).

2- New rifts will still appear "in a few thousand years or so". RC is unlikely to still be alive by then, and again, if they don't convince TDO to give up on his Plan, someone will have to pull out the same "convince a high priest to betray his god to patch up reality" with the new "Redcloak", who will serve a TDO who is wiser against the shceme, no less.

So, what Thor just proposed is a temporary stopgap at most, it's just buying time, they'll still need to somehow convince TDO to play ball with the other pantheons (and the other pantheons to accept it).

[hroþila]

Uh. No. Pretty sure that in Norse mythology, Loki is Odin's blood brother (that is through a blood pact not biological) which makes him Thor's uncle, if anything.

"Mythology" and "canon" are practically mutually exclusive anyway.

[Sylian]

That's also canon in the Norse religion; both were sons of Odin, but by different mothers.

Loki's father, Fárbauti, was a jötunn (giant), and his mother was Laufrey.

[b_jonas]

Oh dear...

I wonder if purple is just a fusion of blue and red gods...

Does that mean green was a fusion of blue and yellow?

No. This is not Steven Universe. The colors are just surfacial indicator of the underlying quiddities, which Thor understands even though Durkon doesn't, so I don't think he is mistaken here.

[Fyraltari]

All they need is to defeat Team Evil, capture Redcloak, tell him what's what and have Elan wear him down by repeatedly saying "Pretty please?" until he agrees to cooperate.

Sounds like a plan.

"Mythology" and "canon" are practically mutually exclusive anyway.

True. But that particular thing comes from Marvel, not from "Norse religion".

[warmachine]

In my opinion, Thor's best move is to get an invitation to the Godsmoot delivered to Redcloak, complete with rules, especially the one that high priests may never be attacked. Thor's minions should have already watched Redcloak and realised he'd never help the other gods without his god's approval. Of course, the Dark One has a secret plan but diplomacy at the Godsmoot and a LOT of concessions might convince him to aid with repairs instead. Might.

[KrankenWagon]

The reward for work well done is more work.

The Peter Principle: TLDR version, people who do good work keep getting promoted until they no longer do good work

[subanark]

So how does one trick a goblin to cast a 9th level spell at the gate?

[Liquor Box]

The circumstance bonus should be to Durkon's intimidate check (not his diplomacy) and should arise after he has captured Redclaok and given him a good beating. Persuading a person to change their entire ideology and goals is a near impossible diplomacy check, forcing them to do something when they are under your control is a pretty easy intimidate check. From a story perspective it adds an interesting ethical question as well - is torture justified when it's the only way to save the world?

Do we think that magically compelling Redcloak to cast the spell would work?

[Kish]

"Let's torture a cleric who's level 17+ and higher level than any of us, specifically into casting a ninth-level spell."

Ethical issues aside (which they would not be, nowhere close), sounds like a brilliant plan.

[Liquor Box]

"Let's torture a cleric who's level 17+ and higher level than any of us, specifically into casting a ninth-level spell."

Ethical issues aside (which they would not be, nowhere close), sounds like a brilliant plan.

If they are able to defeat him, why not? Defeating him (and thus making him prisoner) seems the hardest part of the enterprise, and defeating him has always been the Order's goal, so they must see it as realistic (despite not knowing about the MitD's split loyalties).

Persuading him seems much less realistic to me.

If persuading intelligent people who have entrenched and justified (a justification that they buy into, even if you don't) ideologies and goals to do a complete u-turn were plausible then the world we live in would be a very different place. If such persuasion were realistic, why wouldn't you apply it in the real world to get a politician who you vehemently disagree with to do a u-turn and instead stand for policies you prefer (or if you're not persuasive, why would another person not do the same). The answer is because it it nigh impossible to change a person's deeply entrenched views by persuasion. Realistically, the prospects of Durkon persuading Redcloak to go the opposite direction to his plans, is about as high as the chances of someone persuading Hitler to foster an inclusive society.

It is possible that the order persuading Redcloak will be something that happens in the comic, but if it does it would be a disappointingly unrealistic outcome for me. Certainly far less realistic than the Order capturing Redcloak and compelling him to cast the spell.

[Fyraltari]

realistic [...] realistic [...] the world we live in [...] realistic [...] real world [...] Realistically [...] unrealistic [...] realistic

I thought about writing a complicated and unnecessarily long-winded reply but I think this gets the issue with your point across much more efficently.

[Crisis21]

I thought about writing a complicated and unnecessarily long-winded reply but I think this gets the issue with your point across much more efficently.

The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction has to be believable.
- Mark Twain.

[Fyraltari]

The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction has to be believable.
- Mark Twain.

Leaving aside the difference between realism, verisimilitude and believability, Liquor Box is also missing the obvious third option: trick Redcloak into casting the spell the Order needs.