What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?

[Just to Browse]

Reactive defense spells (shield, silvery barbs, and the less-cited but also potent absorb elements) definitely contribute a lot of power to casters, but as far as the original discussion goes re:flexibility, they still have a ton of options in terms of proactive defense, support, and offensive approaches. The average full caster is still head and shoulders above the rogue in terms of the tools at their disposable.

[LudicSavant]

Not to mention that Sorcerers these days have Magical Guidance, which lets them reroll ability checks (after seeing if it's a success or failure) for 1 SP.

[Blatant Beast]

It would be nice to see an actual spell list one of these times that someone is claiming casters are incredibly versatile and do different things all the time.

This misses the point. The argument, (at least the one I am making), is not about martial vs spellcaster, but about what classes bring what tools to the group. Most of my games run long enough to go from 1-20. High CR creatures are tough. Many High level CR creatures have abilities that stun or cause the Frightened condition, or have other abilities that have to be be bypassed or negated before you can even start to effectively take them on.

The Titular Dragon, has Frightful Presence. An Ancient Red Dragon's Frightful Presence has a DC 21 Wisdom Save vs the Frightened Condition. If your party does not have a solution against the fear effect, then some PCs might be locked out of helping very much.

A Psi Warrior can Guarded Mind away the fear, buff the party with Bulwark of Force, and keep people alive/reduce Concentration checks for damage DCs with judicious use of Protective Field.

Bardic Inspiration is a great ability, D12 bonuses that last for 10 minutes and are triggered when the recipient of the BI choses are under-heralded in my opinion.

There are a bevy of non spell options that other classes have, that Rogues do not, that are quite useful.

A party that has a Paladin's Aura and Bardic Inspiration is setting itself up for success in regards to Saving Throws.....this is even before we talk about spells.

Artificers have Flash of Genius, and Spell Storing Items can be crazy.
If you really want to talk about good spell lists, the Artificer, Druid, and Cleric lists are rather good. Give a preparation class a Long Rest to swap out spells, and they can come back with a very different 'look'.

A well made and played Lore Bard can actually perform most spell casting roles, to greater or lesser degree, by themselves.

This is not arguing that a Lore Bard can solo a dungeon, but rather that they bring an incredible amount of tools to the table, spell based, and non-spell based.

Most Rogue's Toolkits are not that broad.

[stoutstien]

Summon Celestial for me has definitely performed generally equally to Animate Objects would have. It being a ranged damage option of up to 600ft (with disadvantage) has been immensely beneficial in a number of fights, whereas AO is melee only. However, we've also had a few fights where blindsight in close quarterswould have reined as king, and 8 tiny objects with advantage would've had far superior damage output.

I'm not dissatisfied with SC vs. AO, though I believe in most typical dungeon explorations (tighter quarters, especially where a Large creature might be squeezing) AO would be better.

I'm quite sure it would pale in comparison to Conjure 16 Giant Owls though.

Over the years I've realized that I as the GM use AoEs a lot more frequently than most tables so those hordes of lower HP summons just aren't as impactful at my tables. They're not useless by any means but they're also not running away with anything.

[KorvinStarmast]

Reactive defense spells (shield, silvery barbs, and the less-cited but also potent absorb elements) definitely contribute a lot of power to casters, but as far as the original discussion goes re:flexibility, they still have a ton of options in terms of proactive defense, support, and offensive approaches. The average full caster is still head and shoulders above the rogue in terms of the tools at their disposable.

How many games have you played where the number of encounters was about six per adventure day?

The "always on" features have staying power.

I've got a DM who tended to offer up deadly + encounters, about 4 per adventure day. In Tier 3 this put a bit of a dent in the HP resources. And it highlighted how you have to be smart with your spell slots and other LR limited resources.

most other games I've played have not quite reached that level of resource management requirements.

For Stoutstein: Yep. (As to AoE).

[Dr.Samurai]

To share with the class, here's my 11th level Cleric. They're in a playtest which is fighting against level 20 characters, so they're geared pretty heavily towards that.

Spoiler

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Domain spells in brackets
Cantrips: Guidance, Light, Toll the Dead, Word of Radiance, Sacred Flame
1st: Command, Healing Word, Cure Wounds, Inflict Wounds (Identify, Searing Smite)
2nd: Spiritual Weapon, Lesser Restoration, Blindness/Deafness (Heat Metal, Magic Weapon)
3rd: Revivify, Mass Healing Word, Dispel Magic (Elemental Weapon, Protection from Energy)
4th: Death Ward, Banishment (Fabricate, Wall of Fire)
5th: Greater Restoration (Summon Celestial, Creation)
6th: Sunbeam.

Forge Clerics get Animate Objects instead of Summon Celestial as a domain spell, but this was traded out with DM approval since mass minionmancy is iffy.

Of the 'flex' slots I'd consider Inflict Wounds (I picked it up for another 'attack' spell but haven't needed it) and Sunbeam (Summon Celestial upcasts real good) the flex ones for trading out for alternate stuff, but the above list is what I'd consider her 'core' setup. I had Water Walking prepared for a while just in case we ended up in an aquatic fight, but we never needed it.

And here's my 5th level Hexblade 1/Evoker 4:

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Spells in Bold are currently Prepared, instead of just Known

Cantrips: Dancing Lights (Drow), Prestidigitation, Minor Illusion, Mage Hand (Telekinetic feat), Create Bonfire, Mold Earth, Toll the Dead, Shape Water
1st: Find Familiar, Magic Missile, Detect Magic, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Comprehend Languages, Absorb Elements, Alarm, Sleep, Armour of Agathys, Shield, Faerie Fire (Drow, 1/LR)
2nd: Misty Step, Dragon's Breath, Rime's Binding Ice, Hold Person, Darkness (Drow, 1/LR)

AoA and Shield are from the warlock level.

I've also mapped out the next ten or so levels of spells too. The lack of Fireball on the list below is 'cos we've got another wizard who already has it; I'll be copying it from them - if I weren't, I'd probably trade out Sending for it.
Can't say which of the stuff below I'll have prepared day to day yet, so this is just moving into 'Known' territory.

3rds: Phantom Steed, Sending, Dispel Magic, Leomund's Tiny Hut
4ths: Fire Shield, Sickening Radiance, Banishment, Wall of Fire
5ths: Dawn, Wall of Stone, Cone of Cold, Bigby's Hand
6ths: Otiluke's Freezing Sphere, Sunbeam, Wall of Ice, True Seeing
7ths: Forcecage, Teleport, Crown of Stars, Magnificent Mansion

And though the game never started for this one, here's the spell list for my Swords Bard 8/Swashbuckler Rogue 3:-

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1st: Featherfall, Heroism, Healing Word
2nd: Lesser Restoration, Aid, See Invisibility
3rd: Mass Healing Word, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Tongues
4th: Freedom of Movement, Dimension Door

The plan was to take Bard to 14 and Rogue to 6, but I never mapped out the rest of her spell list.

And a Dao Genie Warlock 14

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Cantrips: Prestidigitation, Eldritch Blast, Create Bonfire, Magic Stone
1st: Hex, Hellish Rebuke, Armour of Agathys, Find Familiar (Chainpact)
2nd: Hold Person, Spike Growth
3rd: Counterspell, Summon Fey
4th: Banishment, Dimension Door
5th: Wall of Stone, Synaptic Static, Dream
MA (6th): Mental Prison
MA (7th): Crown of Stars

Spoiler: For the records

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Artificer 7
Magic Missile, Thunderwave, Detect Magic, Identify, Shield, Cure Wounds
Kinetic Jaunt, Heat Metal, Mirror Image, Shatter, Web

Cleric 7
bless, healing word, shield of faith
aid, lesser restoration, spike growth, spiritual weapon
aura of vitality, spirit guardians, revivify
death ward

Genie-lock 7
Cause Fear, Fireball, Invisibility, Magic Circle, Mind Spike, Sending, Wall of Fire, Summon Elemental

Star Druid 7
Blade Ward, Control Flames, Frostbite, Guidance, Mold Earth
Absorb Elements, Color Spray, Faerie Fire, Guiding Bolt, Healing Word
Darkvision, Healing Spirit, Invisibility, Moonbeam, Pass Without Trace, Spike Growth
Conjure 8 Giant Owls, Plant Growth
Tidal Wave

Clockwork Sorc 14
Blade Ward, Mage Hand, Sword Burst, Gust, Mold Earth, Light, Shape Water
Catapult, Feather Fall, jump, mage armor, shield, illusory script
Earthbind, ray of enfeeblement, knock
Battering Ram, Erupting Eearth, Fly
Haste, Intellect Fortress, Pulse Wave
Resilent Sphere, private sanctum
Bigby's Hand, telekinesis, wall fo force
Disintegrate, move earth
Whirlwind

Now i'm annoyed that i cant find my older character sheets.

Posted by me earlier in the thread to demonstrate that even a sorcerer can cover a lot of bases with just a few selections -



This is just a hypothetical character of course, and I'm definitely not going to lie and say either of the two remaining spell choices is going to be Sending (lol). It's a pretty niche spell; I wouldn't really expect anyone but a wizard to have it. Unless - I was an aberrant mind sorcerer. One of the better sorcerer subclasses, FWIW. Still, the most likely candidate for having Sending is the cleric. Every cleric of 5th level or higher is a mere long rest away from having Sending.

But aside from Sending specifically, I think this spell list is quite complete. Does it have the silver bullet to every situation, of course not. But it has powerful spells and covers a lot of situations. That's the thing about spells, they can be very efficiently taken with regards to strategies: if you know fireball, you don't really need *more* AoE. And that's just one spell choice. Even a 7th level sorcerer gets 8, plus race, plus feats, plus background, plus subclass.

I haven't had this much homework in decades! Thank you all, and sorry Skrum, not sure how I missed your spell list the first time around.

Just skimming through for now, I'm not sure that I am seeing anything that supports the claim that a DM can just make encounters without a care for the party because spellcasters can just shoot spells at it and work it out. They are nice spell lists, I'm not attacking the lists. It's just that it's a pretty big claim, and with limited spells known and limited slots, it strikes me as virtually impossible for it to be true. Or rather, a DM can make encounters without a care in the world, but the claim that spellcasters will just be able to magic their way through no matter what seems unlikely. Like Skrum's sorcerer has nothing to do for underwater encounters, or flying, or language barriers, or single target damage, or the list goes on.

I find the claim important because often times people say that DMs have to cater to non-casters (which is basically the claim being made here), and I've argued that the claim is deceptive because if the DM only runs encounters that the spellcaster has known/prepared spells for, then the DM is catering to the casters as well.

An example would be not running encounters that require plane shifting until the caster can cast Plane Shift, or avoiding underwater stuff until the spellcaster learns Water Breathing, etc.

So either your caster doesn't always have the right spell known/prepared, because the DM doesn't cater to anyone and runs whatever encounter strikes their fancy (the claim being made in this thread), OR the caster does have the exactly right spell every time, because the DM is waiting to run certain encounters until the caster is capable of dealing with them.

So the DM for Skrum's sorcerer can't run underwater encounters in order to preserve the claim that you don't have to cater to spellcasters. Which means that we do in fact have to cater to spellcasters as well.

As for looping in defensive options, that's fine. But how do Shield and Absorb Elements 4/day (total, not each) stack up against at-will Uncanny Dodge and Dex Save Prof+Evasion? I don't know, but I don't think the caster is obviously superior here.

This misses the point. The argument, (at least the one I am making), is not about martial vs spellcaster, but about what classes bring what tools to the group.

That's a different point than I am arguing against.

[Skrum]

Single target damage is probably the one area that casters don't natively have great answers (though polymorph and the summon spells are certainly *good* answers, and also why I don't think they're good for the game). In those situations, as the sorc I would look to land the debuff, slow. Or if I took haste, I'd slap that on our best striker. And then support with barbs, vortex warp, etc.

Underwater IME is rare enough that I'm not particularly worried about having an answer on my daily list. If it comes up, well, it's not like the rogue is any better or worse off (though, slow still works fine underwater! As does any spell that isn't fire). It's the kind of thing that warrants having a helm of underwater breathing in your backpack, and not necessarily spending a slot on it, especially as a sorcerer.

Note too that I do have two selections left. I would those two based on the campaign. If I knew there was lots of intrigue, detect thoughts and an illusion like disguise self would be good picks.

[LudicSavant]

This misses the point. The argument, (at least the one I am making), is not about martial vs spellcaster, but about what classes bring what tools to the group. Most of my games run long enough to go from 1-20. High CR creatures are tough. Many High level CR creatures have abilities that stun or cause the Frightened condition, or have other abilities that have to be be bypassed or negated before you can even start to effectively take them on.

The Titular Dragon, has Frightful Presence. An Ancient Red Dragon's Frightful Presence has a DC 21 Wisdom Save vs the Frightened Condition. If your party does not have a solution against the fear effect, then some PCs might be locked out of helping very much.

A Psi Warrior can Guarded Mind away the fear, buff the party with Bulwark of Force, and keep people alive/reduce Concentration checks for damage DCs with judicious use of Protective Field.

Bardic Inspiration is a great ability, D12 bonuses that last for 10 minutes and are triggered when the recipient of the BI choses are under-heralded in my opinion.

There are a bevy of non spell options that other classes have, that Rogues do not, that are quite useful.

A party that has a Paladin's Aura and Bardic Inspiration is setting itself up for success in regards to Saving Throws.....this is even before we talk about spells.

Artificers have Flash of Genius, and Spell Storing Items can be crazy.
If you really want to talk about good spell lists, the Artificer, Druid, and Cleric lists are rather good. Give a preparation class a Long Rest to swap out spells, and they can come back with a very different 'look'.

A well made and played Lore Bard can actually perform most spell casting roles, to greater or lesser degree, by themselves.

This is not arguing that a Lore Bard can solo a dungeon, but rather that they bring an incredible amount of tools to the table, spell based, and non-spell based.

Most Rogue's Toolkits are not that broad.

Adding to this: this narrow toolkit leads to a relatively poor monster matchup spread.

The scarier the single target, the more likely they'll have tools to make qualifying for sneak attack more tactically costly for you or your party that's assisting you. Grappling too, because of size categories. The aforementioned dragon would not only have fear, but also lair actions that can inflict poison or obscurement, blindsight, a legendary action disengage, a high flight speed, and possibly spellcasting too -- all of which can be used by a clever dragon to throw a monkey wrench in the Sneak Attack plan. This is doubly true when we add in off-turn sneak attacks to the mix.

But the less scary the target... the more likely there'll be multiples of them. Not only does the Rogue lack effective AoE, but they also lose more value than any other class to overkill damage (since so much of their offense is bundled up in a single attack).

[Psyren]

I mean, by the time a rogue is fighting an Ancient Red Dragon they should have Slippery Mind, if not Stroke of Luck. Even the far weaker 2014 versions will help a lot here. And while the DMG doesn't prescribe specific magic items, it does say you're expected to have some by that point, and hopefully they'll be helpful ones - not just, like, a handy haversack or portable hole to store all their mundane gear more easily. (Though I suppose Handy Haversack + Portable Hole could be a way for that rogue to quickly deal with a dragon )

[LudicSavant]

Even the far weaker 2014 versions

Is this not the version that is being discussed?

[Kane0]

I mean, by the time a rogue is fighting an Ancient Red Dragon they should have Slippery Mind, if not Stroke of Luck.

Maybe. That clockwork sorc 14 I posed the list of above? He had already fought two elder brain dragons by the time he had got to that level.

[Just to Browse]

Just skimming through for now, I'm not sure that I am seeing anything that supports the claim that a DM can just make encounters without a care for the party because spellcasters can just shoot spells at it and work it out. They are nice spell lists, I'm not attacking the lists. It's just that it's a pretty big claim, and with limited spells known and limited slots, it strikes me as virtually impossible for it to be true. Or rather, a DM can make encounters without a care in the world, but the claim that spellcasters will just be able to magic their way through no matter what seems unlikely. Like Skrum's sorcerer has nothing to do for underwater encounters, or flying, or language barriers, or single target damage, or the list goes on.

IDK about the specific example of throwing the PCs in water or another plane--that's not usually what I was referring to when I mentioned just throwing scenarios at players.

As an example, I've grabbing one spell list arbitrarily (that first one in your quote) and gone through the latest encounters our group handled to see what they could do off the cuff.

• Clear a 2-floor building filled with monsters that have one-shot potential but are scared of light, the stairs between floors is a chokepoint: A celestial can be used to safely scout either floor. Multiple sources of radiant damage allow them to hit super effectively. With good scouting, death ward saves a fragile character with revivify saves someone if there's a big mistake.
• Survive an ambush in a magically sealed room full of heavy smoke and cover; multiple high-power enemies can apply mental conditions: At-will saves allow them to contribute damage without the hit penalty, wall of fire ignores sightlines completely and you can just guess. Greater restoration can save an MVP if they're charmed / frightened.. Someone is probably going to do, so revifify can bring them back.
• Get an artifact from a small tomb full of mephits and regenerating skeletons. A rival party shows up later to steal it: Turn/Destroy Undead is a freebie, reliable AOE allows them to take on multiple mooks, a summoned celestial or wall can block a chokepoint in a hallway. Banishment as an emergency tool against mephits. Getting someone to drop the artifact if it's stolen with command (drop) gives great post-dungeon insurance.
• Save a town from a dozen mooks with death throes and a fast melee boss in an open town square: Decent ranged attacks let them kite out the exploders, healing word & revifify brings up an ally if they sacrifice themselves to get in a good hit, blindness/deafness is a high-value debuff on the boss. Wall of fire puts something between townsfolk & mooks.
• Rescue someone from an invisible death knight with spell-enchanted armor and his unintelligent stone defenders in a looping dungeon complex: Saves and indiscriminate AOE like sunbeam will let you get full damage if you vaguely know the knight's location, dispel magic breaks his defenses, guidance can pump a stealthy person's check if they want to do solo recon.

All of this would be with regular contributions in combat from their cantrips and spiritual weapon, with small stuff like exploring without torches thanks to light, without considering what they could do if they had just a day to prepare (see the user's point on water walking), and without even considering the free-form options they have from innately-flexible tools like fabricate and creation.

And this isn't even particularly crazy. The cleric list doesn't have teleportation, stealth, I don't think it has detect thoughts, locking/unlocking, size alteration. It doesn't have a wizard's access to other flexible spells like fly, counterspell, haste. There's no on-demand defense like shield or absorb elements. Even this middlingly-flexible list designed for primarily PvP unlocks a such a massive breadth of approaches that I could hand them anything I've run since 2020 onwards and they could easily have contributed more than the martial half of the party. Most of my effort would be put towards making them weaker, probably by giving enemies radiant resistance, inflicting conditions that can't be restored, and threatening to separate them from their allies so they can't easily raise them.

[Skrum]

IDK about the specific example of throwing the PCs in water or another plane--that's not usually what I was referring to when I mentioned just throwing scenarios at players.

- snip -

This is my thought as well. When I refer to a caster's flexibility and power, I'm not really thinking of "can they handle the most esoteric and unlikely of situations with no forewarning" It's more that I'm not gonna worry about accidently checkmating the party by like...hitting them with a fear effect and locking them all in place, or entirely overwhelming them because of a lack of AoE.

[LudicSavant]

I mean, by the time a rogue is fighting an Ancient Red Dragon they should have Slippery Mind, if not Stroke of Luck. Even the far weaker 2014 versions will help a lot here. And while the DMG doesn't prescribe specific magic items, it does say you're expected to have some by that point, and hopefully they'll be helpful ones - not just, like, a handy haversack or portable hole to store all their mundane gear more easily. (Though I suppose Handy Haversack + Portable Hole could be a way for that rogue to quickly deal with a dragon )

Re: 2014 Slippery Mind and Stroke of Luck helping with Frightful Presence:

Slippery Mind and Stroke of Luck, while useful, are relatively weak as far as high level features for dealing with Frightful Presence go.

Stroke of Luck lets you turn a missed attack roll into a hit, but it does not make you qualify for sneak attack when you receive Disadvantage. And Slippery Mind is just proficiency on Wisdom saves, that's it.

'But proficiency on Wisdom saves is good, right?' Yes, but it's not as good. By the time a Rogue gets Slippery Mind, the Paladin has a fear immunity aura, the Monk has their Diamond Mind, the Artificer has nearly double your attunement slots and can make beefy magic items to fill them, on top of relevant spells and infusions and Flash of Genius, and the Wizard had great answers to fear before they just learned Mind Blank this level, and they've had Wis proficiency since level 1. Even the Fighter will generally have used one of their extra feats on a Wis proficiency if their subclass didn't already give them something there (such as from Rune Knight, Samurai, or PsiWar), plus Indomitable charges, as modest as those are.

Not only will most classes be better at defending themselves or their allies from Frightful Presence, they also will generally take less penalties should fear happen to succeed against them.

___

Edit:

While on the subject of Rogue high level features, might as well cover the other two (which are, unfortunately, worse than Slippery Mind and Stroke of Luck). Blindsense is miles worse than a level 1 Blind-Fighting feature, so much worse that it's basically ribbon-tier. And Elusive comes online at a level where enemies that can actually see you probably don't need to rely on Advantage to hit you, especially if you're not specifically an Arcane Trickster. And they can still get Advantage on you if you get hit with hard CC.

So you'd better like sneak attack progression and your subclass features, because there really isn't a whole lot else going on in the high level Rogue progression.

[Amnestic]

Blindsense not being Blindsight definitely feels like an artifact of older design (much in the way Feral Senses was), to the extent that last time I saw it come up the DM with the high level rogue character assumed it simply was Blindsight - understandably so.

Houserule wise I also gave Slippery Mind Cha-saves and made Stroke of Luck turn an attack/ability check dice into a 20 (crit on demand) and it refreshes whenever you naturally crit in addition to its rest-based refresh.

[Witty Username]

Strong saves against frightened only matter so much in high level play,
Things like paladins fear aura and heroes feast are available enough that it just not much of an issue.

It is kinda like rogue stealth in that regard, there isn't much reason to invest in being good at hiding when PWT just covers the entire party.
As for fighter, fighter can have at most 3 save proficiencies to the rogue's 4. And rogue will trend the more valuable with
Dex, Con and Wis all covered along with Int which is rare but significantly dangerous to the fighter' str, con and wis which i have never seen a strength save come up in a significant way personally.

And both are better than monk which have better saves for a significantly longer period of the game, since monk is punished in a couple different ways for taking resilient.
--
Blindsense needs a rewrite though, given it does nothing.

[Dr.Samurai]

IDK about the specific example of throwing the PCs in water or another plane--that's not usually what I was referring to when I mentioned just throwing scenarios at players.

As an example, I've grabbing one spell list arbitrarily (that first one in your quote) and gone through the latest encounters our group handled to see what they could do off the cuff.

• Clear a 2-floor building filled with monsters that have one-shot potential but are scared of light, the stairs between floors is a chokepoint: A celestial can be used to safely scout either floor. Multiple sources of radiant damage allow them to hit super effectively. With good scouting, death ward saves a fragile character with revivify saves someone if there's a big mistake.
• Survive an ambush in a magically sealed room full of heavy smoke and cover; multiple high-power enemies can apply mental conditions: At-will saves allow them to contribute damage without the hit penalty, wall of fire ignores sightlines completely and you can just guess. Greater restoration can save an MVP if they're charmed / frightened.. Someone is probably going to do, so revifify can bring them back.
• Get an artifact from a small tomb full of mephits and regenerating skeletons. A rival party shows up later to steal it: Turn/Destroy Undead is a freebie, reliable AOE allows them to take on multiple mooks, a summoned celestial or wall can block a chokepoint in a hallway. Banishment as an emergency tool against mephits. Getting someone to drop the artifact if it's stolen with command (drop) gives great post-dungeon insurance.
• Save a town from a dozen mooks with death throes and a fast melee boss in an open town square: Decent ranged attacks let them kite out the exploders, healing word & revifify brings up an ally if they sacrifice themselves to get in a good hit, blindness/deafness is a high-value debuff on the boss. Wall of fire puts something between townsfolk & mooks.
• Rescue someone from an invisible death knight with spell-enchanted armor and his unintelligent stone defenders in a looping dungeon complex: Saves and indiscriminate AOE like sunbeam will let you get full damage if you vaguely know the knight's location, dispel magic breaks his defenses, guidance can pump a stealthy person's check if they want to do solo recon.

All of this would be with regular contributions in combat from their cantrips and spiritual weapon, with small stuff like exploring without torches thanks to light, without considering what they could do if they had just a day to prepare (see the user's point on water walking), and without even considering the free-form options they have from innately-flexible tools like fabricate and creation.

And this isn't even particularly crazy. The cleric list doesn't have teleportation, stealth, I don't think it has detect thoughts, locking/unlocking, size alteration. It doesn't have a wizard's access to other flexible spells like fly, counterspell, haste. There's no on-demand defense like shield or absorb elements. Even this middlingly-flexible list designed for primarily PvP unlocks a such a massive breadth of approaches that I could hand them anything I've run since 2020 onwards and they could easily have contributed more than the martial half of the party. Most of my effort would be put towards making them weaker, probably by giving enemies radiant resistance, inflicting conditions that can't be restored, and threatening to separate them from their allies so they can't easily raise them.

I didn't make the spell lists, or select them, nor did I create these encounters, and I have to say that if this is the point being made I'm disappointed. Firstly, I've read nothing here that suggests to me non-casters are going to fail or die or can't proceed (we can explore without using torches... seriously?). Secondly, you can see the counter-point already in your example. You are valuing stealthy characters in your scenarios, kiting enemies, and things that undo damage to allies, and then wondering what sort of value a rogue can bring to the equation.

A lot of the commentary here is "you can bring someone back to life, and you can protect them with Death Ward". Yes, this is what cleric's do. However, I really have to call out, again, the incoherence throughout this thread. The rogue has been accused of having a selfish playstyle. Scouting is selfish, but here, when it comes to the cleric, scouting comes up in two of the scenarios as a versatile option for the spellcaster. Uncanny Dodge/Hiding are called out as selfish features that lend themselves to the selfish rogue playstyle, but here we are giving credit to the cleric's versatile options because they can protect allies from dying and bring them back to life. But if we're talking about heavy smoke and cover, then the rogue is Hiding and not being targeted (by attacks or the control effects in that scenario).

In the same vein, the rogue at this level (11) can't roll probably beneath a 23 on Stealth checks. The rogue's expertise with skills has been considered "winning more" throughout this thread, as a way to devalue what the rogue is strong at. But now, since it's a cleric, we consider guidance can pump a stealthy person's check if they want to do solo recon as a powerful and versatile option in the cleric's toolbox. Who is that "stealthy person" you may find yourself wondering? I don't know... probably a spellcaster, because the only kind of good stealth, is magic stealth. No one has outright said that, but they've been saying it this whole time .

And I mentioned previously adjudicating spell effects. There's vision impairments, enough to not target someone directly, but still know where to throw the AOE. You'll just know how to put up that Wall of Fire because... you know, spellcasters are smart and stuff. Look, there's a challenge, I can't see the targets but... watch me thread this Wall of Fire because I can just guess. If guesswork is enough, it strikes me as not noteworthy enough to mention.

Then we get to the ancient red dragon. We're bombarded with all the things that other classes can do in this same scenario. All these neat features to bump up saving throws and contend with Frightened. Well... we've forgotten one. Seems strange that in all of this talk about the "not selfish" classes, and all the amazing spells, we wouldn't just assume that the party has access to Heroes' Feast. Done. Never have to worry about the dragon's Frightful Presence ever again, or the Poison effects of its lair actions. Unless we're always going to draw this line for assumptions that hurts the rogue and helps everyone else.

With what they actually bring to the table, I think the rogue's value can't be seen because everyone just dismisses the skill system and thinks about only what magic can do, and then straight to combat. Either the rogue's skills are "winning more" or "no matter how high they get they can't do xyz" but either way it's okay not to think about it. In my experience, that's not how games typically work. When confronted with a challenge, players will brainstorm how to overcome it, or give themselves an Advantage.

Against an ancient dragon, a high level rogue could potentially steal a dragon egg and potentially lure the dragon to fight outside of its lair. I know it's difficult to quantify removing lair actions from the boss monster in Excel, but that's a pretty big contribution and can certainly happen in a game. Or if the dragon has a servitor, or is brought tribute from surrounding counties, the assassin can Impersonate one of these people, and kick off the encounter with an Assassinate, shaving off almost 1/3 of the dragon's hit points in turn 1.

The rogue can also hide in the Heavy Obscurement of the Noxious Smoke, or in the Light Obscurement of the volcanic gases with something like Skulker.

The rogue has a fair bit of survivability against the dragon's non-weapon attacks. Against Reliable Talent, the dragon has a 50% chance to spot the rogue with it's Legendary Action, which is 1 less action swatting someone with its tail (assuming the dragon is trying to keep its distance to strafe and use its breath weapon attack, otherwise Blindsight is in play).

This is my thought as well. When I refer to a caster's flexibility and power, I'm not really thinking of "can they handle the most esoteric and unlikely of situations with no forewarning" It's more that I'm not gonna worry about accidently checkmating the party by like...hitting them with a fear effect and locking them all in place, or entirely overwhelming them because of a lack of AoE.

Yeah, quite a bit different than what was said before but okay.

I am still skeptical. Because you don't control your players. Like all the scenarios that Just To Browse listed above... are the spellcasters always topped off on spells? Do they always have exactly what is needed? If you're the sort of person to upcast Banishment to deal with CR 1/2 mephits, do you really have the slots you need to cast the right spell at the right time?

This confidence in the spellcasters assumes they're going to be at 100% all the time, otherwise they might not actually have that thing they need to deal with the encounter in the way you're expecting or anticipating. It seems to me that we're really talking about spellcasters having access to AOE and... buffs/debuffs. Which... yeah, that's what they do.

[Blatant Beast]

I mean, by the time a rogue is fighting an Ancient Red Dragon they should have Slippery Mind, if not Stroke of Luck. Even the far weaker 2014 versions will help a lot here. And while the DMG doesn't prescribe specific magic items, it does say you're expected to have some by that point, and hopefully they'll be helpful ones - not just, like, a handy haversack or portable hole to store all their mundane gear more easily. (Though I suppose Handy Haversack + Portable Hole could be a way for that rogue to quickly deal with a dragon )

Yet, neither Slippery Mind nor Stroke of Luck help anyone other than the Rogue.
Proficiency in Wisdom saves is fine, (15th level is a bit late for it), but even with Wisdom Save proficiency and a 16 Wisdom, a Rogue is rocking a +9 against Wisdom Saving Throws.

I have not had coffee yet, but even my sleep addled brain is coming up with a 45%of Success with Slippery Mind against the Dragon Fear of the aforementioned Ancient Red Dragon.

Just like someone's child might want a puppy, the Rogue wants a Bard in the party for the Bardic Inspiration boost, as it is still quite likely, the Rogue fails the Wisdom Save against Frightful Presence.

Stroke of Luck, is not a great capstone. While of course, attacks will miss even in high level play, in practice, high level groups optimize their capabilities by buffing each other.

A Rogue in a party with a Bard, might have had Foresight cast on them.
A level 20 Rogue with 20 Dexterity has a 55% chance, natively, to hit an Ancient Red Dragon's AC of 22.

This same Rogue with Foresight on them, may never need to use Stroke of Luck at all, and of course Foresight buffs Slippery Mind as well, which could mean, the Bard does not need to spend any Bardic Inspiration dice on the Rogue.

When you factor in Magic Items, the disparity often becomes worse, because caster Legendary Items, such as a Cubic Gate have powerful effects; in this case it mimics the 9th level spell Gate.

Even if the Rogue has a Vorpal Saber, (a saber is a type of Rapier), does a 5% chance to outright kill the Red Dragon equal the value and flexibility that a Cubic Gate offers?

Most of the kick ass magic swords that WotC has placed in adventures such as Descent to Avernus or Dungeon of the Mad Mage are not stock magic swords from the Dungeon Masters Guide. Even, Snicker Snack, the Vorpal Blade from the Wilds Beyond the Witchlight adventure has some small modifications to the Vorpal Blade statblock found in the DMG.

[JellyPooga]

[I]When you factor in Magic Items, the disparity often becomes worse, because caster Legendary Items, such as a Cubic Gate have powerful effects; in this case it mimics the 9th level spell Gate.

Even if the Rogue has a Vorpal Saber, (a saber is a type of Rapier), does a 5% chance to outright kill the Red Dragon equal the value and flexibility that a Cubic Gate offers?

Since when does a Rogue, with their one attack, want a Vorpal Weapon or, indeed, not have the ability to use a Cubic Gate?

If you're going to bring magic items into the argument, at least use one that actually supports your point.

A Rogue doesn't really want magic weapons to do anything more than hit more often or make more attacks. Bonus damage or effects on hit are things someone with lots of attacks wants. The kind of magic item a Rogue wants are those that increase their utility or enhance their speciality; something that grants invisibility for a stealth focused Rogue, for example, that or those that shore up a perceived weakness e.g. something that deals AoE damage.

[LudicSavant]

The rogue can also hide in the Heavy Obscurement of the Noxious Smoke, or in the Light Obscurement of the volcanic gases with something like Skulker.

(assuming the dragon is trying to keep its distance to strafe and use its breath weapon attack, otherwise Blindsight is in play).

If it wants to strafe the party with an AoE, it doesn't need to see you in the first place.

If it actually wants to go for you in particular (despite the relatively low threat of a post-round-one Assassin), it's coming at you with 60 foot blindsight.

the assassin can Impersonate one of these people, and kick off the encounter with an Assassinate, shaving off almost 1/3 of the dragon's hit points in turn 1.

If a tier 4 single target alpha strike specialist with prep time gets Surprise against me, I'd count myself lucky if that was all that happened to me.

Also: If you want to finish that fight, you need to find a way to bring your party along for the infiltration.

Against an ancient dragon, a high level rogue could potentially steal a dragon egg and potentially lure the dragon to fight outside of its lair.

And so can other classes. An Assassin's skill checks and noncombat toolkit are not actually that hard to compete with.

[Dr.Samurai]

Yet, neither Slippery Mind nor Stroke of Luck help anyone other than the Rogue.

So what? By helping the rogue, it helps the party. Obviously.

Proficiency in Wisdom saves is fine, (15th level is a bit late for it), but even with Wisdom Save proficiency and a 16 Wisdom, a Rogue is rocking a +9 against Wisdom Saving Throws.

I have not had coffee yet, but even my sleep addled brain is coming up with a 45%of Success with Slippery Mind against the Dragon Fear of the aforementioned Ancient Red Dragon.

Just like someone's child might want a puppy, the Rogue wants a Bard in the party for the Bardic Inspiration boost, as it is still quite likely, the Rogue fails the Wisdom Save against Frightful Presence.

Same numbers apply to a wizard right? And the bard has an even worse time against the save, and can't use Bardic Inspiration on itself. So... what exactly are we even getting at here?

The rogue is an attacker, and is going to fair far better against the lair actions than others and remain mobile with Cunning Action. So keep the rogue from getting Frightened. Seems pretty obvious in a team game.

Stroke of Luck, is not a great capstone. While of course, attacks will miss even in high level play, in practice, high level groups optimize their capabilities by buffing each other.

A Rogue in a party with a Bard, might have had Foresight cast on them.
A level 20 Rogue with 20 Dexterity has a 55% chance, natively, to hit an Ancient Red Dragon's AC of 22.

This same Rogue with Foresight on them, may never need to use Stroke of Luck at all, and of course Foresight buffs Slippery Mind as well, which could mean, the Bard does not need to spend any Bardic Inspiration dice on the Rogue.

Who is this not true for? Again, I'm not sure what the point is that you are making. Casters are expected to buff people. That's part of the point of those classes. Sure, the Bard can cast Foresight on themselves but... so much of that is wasted on a pretty poor attack class. If the Bard casts Heroes' Feast, Foresight, and uses Bardic Inspiration, then they are doing their part. Certainly the Bard is not going to take down the ancient red dragon right?? Should we poo-poo the bard for not being able to solo the creature by itself?

When you factor in Magic Items, the disparity often becomes worse, because caster Legendary Items, such as a Cubic Gate have powerful effects; in this case it mimics the 9th level spell Gate.

Even if the Rogue has a Vorpal Saber, (a saber is a type of Rapier), does a 5% chance to outright kill the Red Dragon equal the value and flexibility that a Cubic Gate offers?

Most of the kick ass magic swords that WotC has placed in adventures such as Descent to Avernus or Dungeon of the Mad Mage are not stock magic swords from the Dungeon Masters Guide. Even, Snicker Snack, the Vorpal Blade from the Wilds Beyond the Witchlight adventure has some small modifications to the Vorpal Blade statblock found in the DMG.

I agree with JellyPooga, not sure why you chose these items to make this point.

But again I want to take us back to some of that elite optimizer commentary. The Thief's Use Magic Device was compared, unfavorably, to the Arcane Tickster being able to use any spellcaster magic item. Now we're being told that caster magic items are just way better than, I guess... magic weapons? So seems like the Thief would have a nice little advantage there, but it certainly wasn't portrayed that way earlier, where it was said to "not be doing that much".

This waffling back and forth is a key component of these threads, which simply amount to optimizers telling us arbitrarily what is good and what isn't good.

Since when does a Rogue, with their one attack, want a Vorpal Weapon or, indeed, not have the ability to use a Cubic Gate?

If you're going to bring magic items into the argument, at least use one that actually supports your point.

A Rogue doesn't really want magic weapons to do anything more than hit more often or make more attacks. Bonus damage or effects on hit are things someone with lots of attacks wants. The kind of magic item a Rogue wants are those that increase their utility or enhance their speciality; something that grants invisibility for a stealth focused Rogue, for example, that or those that shore up a perceived weakness e.g. something that deals AoE damage.

Indeed. If we're going to pick out magic items, we can do better for the rogue than a vorpal sword.

If it wants to strafe the party with an AoE, it doesn't need to see you in the first place.

But if the rogue wants to gain Advantage from being an unseen attacker, the obscurement actually helps.

As opposed to, you know, a wizard being stuck in the obscurement and not being able to target anything, and having trouble getting out because it's been knocked prone and doesn't have any mobility features. Or because it's dead, because Breath Weapon+Legendary Actions+Lair Actions means it died.

If it actually wants to go for you in particular (despite the relatively low threat of a post-round-one Assassin), it's coming at you with 60 foot blindsight.

Ah, so you think the rogue is not worth going after. It's plinking away about 10% of the dragon's HP each hit, assuming Sneak Attack. Seems like that might have an impact if the rest of the team is damaging the dragon while its trying to take them down.

If a tier 4 single target alpha strike specialist with prep time gets Surprise against me, I'd count myself lucky if that was all that happened to me.

Yeah yeah yeah, no big deal because you say it's not a big deal.

The thing is... I'm not trying to impress you and your buddies/bodyguards. I don't play at the D&D Olympics Table where only 20% of mechanics are considered viable and everyone knows the Optimizer Playbook front and back. So I don't need to compare to whatever unmentioned vague optimized alpha striker you are alluding to but will never elaborate on. I just have to show that a rogue can provide value to a team. And if an assassin takes out a third of the dragon's hit points before combat starts, and then is chopping off another ~50 or so every hit, then I'd say that's quite a good showing.

Also: If you want to finish that fight, you need to find a way to bring your party along for the infiltration.

No, I don't. This is more INCORRECT commentary that perpetuates the reputation the OP is mentioning. The rogue is not responsible for making sure the entire party can stealth or ambush or infiltrate. The party is responsible for that. That the rogue can potentially set up an ambush and Assassinate a target, does not mean the rogue has to also make sure the entire party can get in on that action. The party has more resources together/combined than the rogue does and everyone should be working together to make this happen.

And so can other classes. An Assassin's skill checks and noncombat toolkit are not actually that hard to compete with.

For you and your groups, which appear to ignore stealth rules and selectively choose when counter-measures are available or not, and then call that "optimization".

[Blatant Beast]

Since when does a Rogue, with their one attack, want a Vorpal Weapon or, indeed, not have the ability to use a Cubic Gate?

If you're going to bring magic items into the argument, at least use one that actually supports your point.

A Rogue doesn't really want magic weapons to do anything more than hit more often or make more attacks. Bonus damage or effects on hit are things someone with lots of attacks wants. The kind of magic item a Rogue wants are those that increase their utility or enhance their speciality; something that grants invisibility for a stealth focused Rogue, for example, that or those that shore up a perceived weakness e.g. something that deals AoE damage.

Well that begs the question, what items are really good for a Rogue?
Thanks for bringing it up! There are not that many Legendary items that scream Rogue.

I will absolutely concede that a Cubic Gate can be used by anyone, (I mistakenly thought it was spellcaster only), but even then the item is good for a Rogue not because it is enhancing what a rogue does, as arguably a Vorpal Weapon does for the Fighter class, but rather precisely because it is widening a Rogue's capabilities, as you yourself mentioned.

I have had friends absolutely trash a Soulknife's Psychic Veil ability, because to them a 13th level ability that grants a slightly more robust version of what is a 2nd level spell is not a level appropriate power rate precisely because Invisibility is negated by Truesight, and most "-Sense" abilities like tremorsense, websense, etc.

Rogues and Monks in many ways suffer from the same issue, in that the WotC Designers have not really devoted much time and effort to creating magic items that are designed with them in mind.

To Dr. Samurai...no, something that only helps the Rogue is not the same value as an ability, like Bardic Inspiration, that helps others, when your optimization point is Unit Effectiveness, and the Unit being considered is the Adventuring Group.

We have already established that a Rogue's Slippery Mind ability coupled with a 16 Wisdom is insufficient to make it even likely that a Rogue succeeds against an Ancient Red Dragon's Frightful Presence ability. The end result of almost succeeding at a Saving Throw is just as bad as being in a position due to an existing Condition as Automatically failing a Saving Throw.

So, No, Slippery Mind is not equivalent to Bardic Inspiration, in terms of actively helping maintain Unit Effectiveness, if your focus is on the party as a whole.

[LudicSavant]

And so can other classes. An Assassin's skill checks and noncombat toolkit are not actually that hard to compete with.

For you and your groups, which appear to ignore stealth rules and selectively choose when counter-measures are available or not, and then call that "optimization".

What in the actual world are you even talking about? What stealth rules do you believe are being ignored? And why do you believe these allegedly ignored stealth rules make it impossible for, say, a Bard to compete with your skill checks and noncombat toolkit?

Also: If you want to finish that fight, you need to find a way to bring your party along for the infiltration.

No, I don't. This is more INCORRECT commentary that perpetuates the reputation the OP is mentioning. The rogue is not responsible for making sure the entire party can stealth or ambush or infiltrate. The party is responsible for that. That the rogue can potentially set up an ambush and Assassinate a target, does not mean the rogue has to also make sure the entire party can get in on that action. The party has more resources together/combined than the rogue does and everyone should be working together to make this happen.

Dr. Samurai, you can't have it both ways, no matter how many times you shout in allcaps.

If the party can ambush without your help, then your ability to get an ambush isn't that hard to compete with -- indeed, your success was contingent on theirs.

If they can't, then all you've done with that moderate damage alpha strike is put yourself in a solo fight with an angry Ancient Red Dragon that still has most of its resources and HP left.

But if the rogue wants to gain Advantage from being an unseen attacker, the obscurement actually helps.

As opposed to, you know, a wizard being stuck in the obscurement and not being able to target anything, and having trouble getting out because it's been knocked prone and doesn't have any mobility features.

First, if you're 'stuck in the obscurement' then you also get Disadvantage, which is more troublesome for Rogues than most.

Second, being in obscurement obviously doesn't prevent a Wizard from being able to target anything. There are bloody tons of spells that don't require you to see your target. So many, in fact, that it is usually the case that (when I am playing Wizards, anyway) the majority of spells I prepare for a given day don't require it.

I just have to show that a rogue can provide value to a team.

No, you don't, because that has never been a point of contention. Every class provides value to a team.

[Just to Browse]

Firstly, I've read nothing here that suggests to me non-casters are going to fail or die or can't proceed [...]

I want to preface my reply by saying that you're reading more into my comments than what I've actually written. Going back to my original reply in this particular sub-convo, all I've said is that it's "very easy to highlight someone flexible like a caster", and that highlighting inflexible party members takes more work. I definitely haven't said that rogues are never going to succeed at anything, or will always die, or have nothing to offer, etc etc. I don't even believe that!

I just picked an arbitrary flexible character (the PvP-oriented cleric you quoted) and some scenarios (the stuff I've run with my group in the last couple years), and showed that the flexible character had a variety of useful approaches in every situation. Your comment implies (I think) that you'd prefer to pick the caster & the scenarios, which I'm sure most folks in this thread would be happy to read, but you're gonna have to do the writeup yourself if you want us to discus.

Okay, that out of the way, let's address the arguments as I understand them:.

1. Of course clerics can cast death ward / revivify / healing word, it's what they do! I agree with this, so I'm not sure why it's being touted as a counterpoint / sign of incoherence. Amongst their tools, clerics have a variety of tools that stop their friends from dying. These tools are decently flexible (proactive death ward, reactive & fast healing word), but the important note is that the cleric has these tools plus more stuff like their summoned angel & wall of fire & lasers and whatnot.

2. The rogue has strengths like stealth. Again, I agree with you. The rogue has strengths, it's just that strengths are just narrow (and not particularly hard to compete with), so they don't offer the rogue much flexibility in terms of approach. To your stealth example, the rogue's ability to give themselves (and only themselves) a high stealth roll doesn't let them do much aside from sneaking in combat or doing a solo stealth mission. Sometimes the party needs a guy to sneak in somewhere by themselves, and when they do, a rogue with stealth expertise will be a fine pick! It's just that "I sneak in there solo" is not always going to be the best option, and the rogue can't leverage their high stealth roll for much else.

3. If casters cast spells on the rogue, that means the rogue is doing a good job. I see this as a variant of argument #2. I want to repeat here that I'm not arguing rogues can literally do nothing ever ever no matter what, I'm just arguing that their strengths are narrow, which means more work for me as the DM. When the cleric's leveled spells don't apply, they can find the most useful party member and spam guidance. What can the rogue do when their expertise skills don't apply?... well, hopefully there's something to dash to or a guy to sneak attack I guess.

4. These examples require the caster being at 100%. I would check those examples again, because many of them explicitly do not. Several refer to mid- & low-level slots which our example cleric will have in spades even in the middle of an adventuring day, or cantrips that they will never run out of. The example you've given (banishment on a mephit) shows up between a reference to an AOE cantrip, an hour-long summon, and a 1st-level spell. Let's make sure we're accurately representing the arguments when we rebut them, please!

5. Those cleric options aren't actually very good. Specifically this is brought up to the point on casters not knowing vaguely where their allies and enemies are in the midst of a smoke-filled ambush, and that that light is not useful to a traveling party over a torch. To these, all I can say is that you should try it, because I've had both of those scenarios come up and they worked as expected. Throwing down a wall on turn 1 isn't guaranteed, but it's pretty accurate even when done blind, while the free hand you get from not using a torch has been consistently helpful.

[LudicSavant]

I want to preface my reply by saying that you're reading more into my comments than what I've actually written.

I definitely haven't said that rogues are never going to succeed at anything, or will always die, or have nothing to offer, etc etc. I don't even believe that!

This. So much this.

[Witty Username]

So the quick assement,
Say stealth for an assassin. By the tier 4 range they will get a +17 to stealth and reliable talent so auto success if DC is 27 or less.
These are good numbers but it does run into an issue that in optimized groups use pass without trace alot which gets the floor to +10, something like a monk or ranger will be rocking a + 21 due to that, or a respectable +15. It creates a weird paradox of optimized stealth groups are discouraged from actually investing in stealth because beyond your spell buddy.

This is part of the reason why awhile back, I asked about allowing the rogue to share its stealth check as a addition to Thieves cant. Ultimately being good at stealth individually is just not useful in upper end groups.

[LudicSavant]

A stealthy Ranger at that level is going to be something like, say... a Gloom Stalker with Expertise, Pass Without Trace, Nondetection, bonus action hide, bonus action invisibility, immunity to being tracked by nonmagical means, passive invisibility vs darkvision, improved darkvision of their own, automatically prepared Seeming, Rope Trick, Disguise Self, and Greater Invisibility, plus 5 slot-free casts of scouting spells, and a swim and climb speed to boot.

[Skrum]

So the quick assement,
Say stealth for an assassin. By the tier 4 range they will get a +17 to stealth and reliable talent so auto success if DC is 27 or less.
These are good numbers but it does run into an issue that in optimized groups use pass without trace alot which gets the floor to +10, something like a monk or ranger will be rocking a + 21 due to that, or a respectable +15. It creates a weird paradox of optimized stealth groups are discouraged from actually investing in stealth because beyond your spell buddy.

This is part of the reason why awhile back, I asked about allowing the rogue to share its stealth check as a addition to Thieves cant. Ultimately being good at stealth individually is just not useful in upper end groups.

There are rules about group stealth that I think are pretty good - as long as half the group passes, the group passes. Essentially, each stealthy character can bring someone with them. Does this entirely solve the Lone Rogue problem, no. But if the group has a rogue with a massive stealth check and then the monk or bard or dex-fighter has a decent check, that'll be enough to get a party of 4 to be stealthy. And without spending a spell! Pg 126 of of the PHB.

@Dr. Samurai
My dislike of the rogue is based on several specific weaknesses I think they have (detailed up and down this thread). But the connecting theme is Rogues Offer Less. They are less likely to have a good answer to obstacles and less likely to have notable, strong contributions to group success. A party of 4 characters, working their way through the game, I'm not excited about one of those chairs being taken by a rogue. I think it incredibly likely a different class would do more, bring more to the table, be more effective, etc. Now if someone was being reductive about this, they might think the conclusion to draw is that I think any party that isn't a shepherd druid, twilight cleric, nuclear wizard, and hexadin is a "bad" party. Definitely not!!! But when almost any other class would be more useful than the rogue...I'm gonna say the rogue isn't very good.