Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XII

[Roxxy]

I've never heard of any historical documents describing how anyone was trained for war in the Middle Ages. There are some detailed records of how Roman legionnaires were trained, but that's not got anything to do with the Middle Ages, really.

Could you please share this information as to how Roman legionnaires were trained? That sounds rather interesting to me.

[Thiel]

Yes, though the training grounds seemed to be kind of transitory, events more than institutions. However pretty common events, I think there were about 30 or 40 fechtschules in Strasbourg every year in the early 16th Century for example.
G

So once a week more or less once you remove all the prayer and saints days?

[fusilier]

As I understand it, most soldiers from the medieval period and renaissance learned soldiering much like most professions were learned at that time. To quote Guilmartin: "Until the sixteenth century warfare was dominated by men who were not trained in any meaningful sense of the word, but who learned their military skills in childhood and adolescence as a part of their total cultural environment."

Not only does this apply obviously to knights, but it would hold true for militias of the time period as well. The advent of firearms (and probably pikes, although more slowly), changed this equation, and something more familiar to our modern definitions of training began to develop. [Training was pretty much necessary for the safe handling of early firearms.]

The "old-style" by which soldiers learned their trade, usually produced superior soldiers, but it couldn't create them quickly or economically. Which meant that large losses could severely cripple an army for years. Guilmartin, himself, was focused on large naval battles and felt this was a key factor in understanding why Lepanto was a serious defeat for the Ottomans, even though they rapidly rebuilt their fleet.

[Mr. Mask]

G: Thank you so very much. I had all but given up hope of finding information on the subject. I had not expected to find out such wonderful expectations about the abilities of knights (how does one get on a tall, horse-riding man's shoulders using only their sleeves?).


Mike: Forgive my exaggeration of that point. I agree the soldiers need a strong spirit.

In olden days, I can imagine men needing the individuality hammered out of them less, much of the job done by their upbringing and more closely-knit communities?


Fusilier: I imagine what you say is how it was. My mental image of the training of soldiers is much better now. Thank you.

[JustSomeGuy]

(how does one get on a tall, horse-riding man's shoulders using only their sleeves?).

you'd have to guess that the tall horserider was supposed to help; bending down, lifting his arms to go with momentum etc.

Also, climbing ladders upside down in full armour?

[Mr Beer]

In olden days, I can imagine men needing the individuality hammered out of them less, much of the job done by their upbringing and more closely-knit communities?

It's possible they also didn't need as much psychological retraining to be able to kill another human.

[Mr. Mask]

Guy: I've actually seen a demonstration of climbing an upside-down ladder in plate. Though the armour isn't as heavy as some people think... doing that without armour sounds like far too much exertion for me.


Beer: Though killing is never easy, pretty much. Through much of history, many people were preparing themselves for if they needed to kill leach other, as a regular part of the culture.

[Matthew]

Could you please share this information as to how Roman legionnaires were trained? That sounds rather interesting to me.

Vegetius is the obvious source for this, and it is no surprise that his text was popular in the medieval world. I would be surprised if medieval commanders were not doing similar sorts of things within the limits of their resources.

Beer: Though killing is never easy, pretty much. Through much of history, many people were preparing themselves for if they needed to kill leach other, as a regular part of the culture.

It is no coincidence that hunting is so often closely associated with military castes as a pastime. Killing animals, I suspect, is a rather good way to desensitise people in preparation for killing humans.

[GnomeFighter]

Wow wow wow... That is a BIG claim about hunting making allot of insinuations about people who do hunt and people who work in farming. Unless you can back that up with some evidence I suggest it you remove it before someone takes offense. That is a VERY big leap to make.

[Matthew]

Wow wow wow... That is a BIG claim about hunting making allot of insinuations about people who do hunt and people who work in farming. Unless you can back that up with some evidence I suggest it you remove it before someone takes offense.

What insinuation do you find offensive? Are you saying that driving a spear into a boar is not good practice for driving a spear into a man? Or are you saying that hunting animals was not a popular pastime amongst military castes? Either way, I am not going to be removing my opinion, wrong or right it is a supposition about the hunt as military training (we know for example that the Mongols did exactly this, which is to say used the hunt to train for military purposes).

[GnomeFighter]

is a rather good way to desensitise people in preparation for killing humans.

That hunting desensitize people to killing humans. This is a very big claim to make without any sort of evidence, and a very insulting one to those who do hunt, and those who work in farming and animal slaughter.

Either way, I am not going to be removing my opinion, wrong or right it is a supposition about the hunt as military training (we know for example that the Mongols did exactly this, which is to say used the hunt to train for military purposes).

There is a BIG difference to the use of hunting as part of training in terms of accuracy and skill at tracking and use of a weapon against a live target and saying that it desensitize people.

Hunting has been a popular past time among all groups throughout history, not just the military.

[Matthew]

That hunting desensitize people to killing humans. This is a very big claim to make without any sort of evidence, and a very insulting one to those who do hunt, and those who work in farming and animal slaughter.

I am not saying hunting desensitises people to killing humans, I am saying that it can be used to do that. If you want to teach somebody to kill without killing a man, then killing an animal is the next best thing. If you live in an ancient or medieval society where it is necessary (or perceived as necessary) to militarise your youth to kill, then getting them to kill animals at range and in close quarters is a good first step.

There is a BIG difference to the use of hunting as part of training in terms of accuracy and skill at tracking and use of a weapon against a live target and saying that it desensitize people.

I think you are reading too much into what I am saying. I am not saying hunting turns you into an amoral killer.

[Mr. Mask]

Wow wow wow... That is a BIG claim about hunting making allot of insinuations about people who do hunt and people who work in farming. Unless you can back that up with some evidence I suggest it you remove it before someone takes offense. That is a VERY big leap to make.

Umm... Well. I was going to reply to Matthew, telling him, "A close friend of mine would agree with you. He grew up on a farm, and went out hunting a lot like everyone else--and they were all tough as nuts." Criminals rarely last long in such places, because everyone knows how to defend themselves and are willing ("hard people" is exactly how my friend describes them and himself). I don't think he, or anyone else there would find that claim offensive.

[Matthew]

Umm... Well. I was going to reply to Matthew, telling him, "A close friend of mine would agree with you. He grew up on a farm, and went out hunting a lot like everyone else--and they were all tough as nuts." Criminals rarely last long in such places, because everyone knows how to defend themselves and are willing ("hard people" is exactly how my friend describes them and himself). I don't think he, or anyone else there would find that claim offensive.

I suspect we may be missing a political (American?) slant to this where hunting is being criticised as desensitising people to violence, which is much like the contention that violent video games do the same in that it is code for "turns people bad". Could be wrong, just my supposition from the reaction.

[Galloglaich]

Hunting was definitely a very important part of combat training (and a regular passtime for nobles and commoners as well), as well as something like a coming of age ritual for a lot of young men, I should have mentioned that.

G

[Mr. Mask]

I suspect we may be missing a political (American?) slant to this where hunting is being criticised as desensitising people to violence, which is much like the contention that violent video games do the same in that it is code for "turns people bad". Could be wrong, just my supposition from the reaction.

Maybe? Haven't heard that particular one before. Could easily be that, considering recent topics in politics.

Of course, the thread has a no politics clause, so I guess we better not talk about that possibility any further.



New Topic: A fellow talked about a story they constructed, for a roleplaying game. It involved a giant turtle which was very difficult to hurt, who would run away into the sea if it got injured, heal and come back. After the PCs failed to kill it miserably, an army came to stop it. The army was described as wielding two-man bills, and four-man pikes.

Anyone know historical examples of multi-person polearms?

[Thiel]

I've seen an illustration of a hook of some sort that was used by two people to topple siege ladders, but that's all that springs to mind.

[Straybow]

Also, climbing ladders upside down in full armour?

Guy: I've actually seen a demonstration of climbing an upside-down ladder in plate. Though the armour isn't as heavy as some people think... doing that without armour sounds like far too much exertion for me.

I think the confusion here is the wording. "Upside down" might be better phrased as "climbing up the underside of a canted ladder," hooking the rungs with heels or knees and doing most of the lifting with the arms.

[Straybow]

Hunting was definitely a very important part of combat training (and a regular passtime for nobles and commoners as well), as well as something like a coming of age ritual for a lot of young men, I should have mentioned that.

G

On a farm you kill a corralled animal. Boar hunting in particular was how young men learned how to stand with a set spear before a charge.

Michael Loades' show on medieval life (2012, I think) showed how deer hunting back then wasn't one guy staking out a deer path from tree stand. It was a group effort that paralleled, in some ways, the roles and group cohesion necessary for battlefield effectiveness.

[warty goblin]

On a farm you kill a corralled animal. Boar hunting in particular was how young men learned how to stand with a set spear before a charge.

Michael Loades' show on medieval life (2012, I think) showed how deer hunting back then wasn't one guy staking out a deer path from tree stand. It was a group effort that paralleled, in some ways, the roles and group cohesion necessary for battlefield effectiveness.

Even killing corralled animals has some effect. It's something to cut a creature open, and realize all it's nothing but a sack of blood and organs, and you can make them stop working. It takes killing from an abstract to a known reality.

[Storm Bringer]

Maybe? Haven't heard that particular one before. Could easily be that, considering recent topics in politics.

Of course, the thread has a no politics clause, so I guess we better not talk about that possibility any further.



New Topic: A fellow talked about a story they constructed, for a roleplaying game. It involved a giant turtle which was very difficult to hurt, who would run away into the sea if it got injured, heal and come back. After the PCs failed to kill it miserably, an army came to stop it. The army was described as wielding two-man bills, and four-man pikes.

Anyone know historical examples of multi-person polearms?

for those who want to see it, here is the video Mr Mask is on about.

I personally, disagree with his ideas about four man pikes. I honestly think it would be easier to use a Ballista or similar bolt thrower to try and penetrate the turtles shell.

[Brother Oni]

Even killing corralled animals has some effect. It's something to cut a creature open, and realize all it's nothing but a sack of blood and organs, and you can make them stop working. It takes killing from an abstract to a known reality.

I can't remember the source, but don't most serial killers supposedly start with small animals at an early age first?

[Mr. Mask]

for those who want to see it, here is the video Mr Mask is on about.

I personally, disagree with his ideas about four man pikes. I honestly think it would be easier to use a Ballista or similar bolt thrower to try and penetrate the turtles shell.

Wasn't saying it was a good idea. Ballista definitely sound like a much better plan, even if multi-user polearms are plausible.

Either way, getting through a gigantic turtle's shell might be something of a wasted effort. The snapping turtle can deflect some bullets off its shell (might've just been pistol rounds), and it isn't any bigger than a car's tire. A turtle bigger than a house... not sure what you could use to get through that armour.

[Spiryt]

There are some source mentions about 2, 3 etc. men wielding polearms in sources like about Battle of Roosebeke, I believe.

But it pretty much seems to be about making sure that band of infantrymen stays in as tight order as possible when hell breaks loose.

I can't really imagine how it would improve impact of actual strikes. In fact interfering would be more certain

[Martin Greywolf]

Never heard about multiple-man polearms as such, they seem ridiculously impractical. You could have long (4-6 metres) pikes that soldiers in rear rows laid on the shoulders of those in front of them, but that´s about it.

If we ignore square-cube law (as we have to for any fantasy RPG ever), then the best was to kill that turtle would be a big pit and a rock. If that didn´t work, then clearly, it wasn´t a big enough rock .

[Galloglaich]

On a farm you kill a corralled animal. Boar hunting in particular was how young men learned how to stand with a set spear before a charge.

Michael Loades' show on medieval life (2012, I think) showed how deer hunting back then wasn't one guy staking out a deer path from tree stand. It was a group effort that paralleled, in some ways, the roles and group cohesion necessary for battlefield effectiveness.

With a lot of different types of dogs....


Along similar lines, it's interesting to note that butchers show up quite a bit in the town militias and among the fencing masters, along with furriers and various leather workers, and cutlers.

Imagine fighting a guy with blades, who had been working as a butcher for 10 or 15 years... something extra scary about that to me.

G

[Mr. Mask]

Butchers know how to cut meat and bone. And guess what? You're made of those things.

No, really. Ten years carving animals gives you some insight into cutting things--living or dead.

[AmberVael]

So, I'm thinking about doing a bit of homebrew about crossbows. However, you don't see crossbows in myth and fantasy quite as much as you do other weapons, so I don't feel as familiar or comfortable with them as I would something like a sword or a bow.

With this in mind, I'd like to learn a bit more about them, and in general what people think about them. My understanding is that they're relatively easy to use (point and click is not such a hard concept compared to using a sling or bow) and put some real power behind their bolts. Of course, slow firing is also something people seem to associate with them, given how bolts were reloaded.
If any of these things are wrong or could have more detail behind them, please do enlighten me.

Beyond just the basic facts though, I'm interested in hearing what people think their coolest uses and features are. Stories, weird quirks, wacky stuff- pretty much anything that is interesting and has to do with crossbows.
Or terrible. Or spectacularly terrible. A piece of history in my town has taught me that horrible failures can be just as fascinating and inspiring as success.

[Galloglaich]

There is lots of cool stuff about crossbows, quite complex weapons actually ranging from light and easy to use to strong and very deadly (and not so easy to use).

Can you narrow down what you are interested in specifically a bit more? Social context of crossbows? Military context? Tactical use? history? Different types and their characteristics?

G

[Fortinbras]

New Topic: A fellow talked about a story they constructed, for a roleplaying game. It involved a giant turtle which was very difficult to hurt, who would run away into the sea if it got injured, heal and come back. After the PCs failed to kill it miserably, an army came to stop it. The army was described as wielding two-man bills, and four-man pikes.

Anyone know historical examples of multi-person polearms?

Here is a thread on My Armoury discussing a similar topic. Apparently there are some references to such occurrences in Villani's Nuova Cronica.