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Thread: Ways to Get Stunning Fist?
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2024-05-09, 12:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Ways to Get Stunning Fist?
I've been staring at the monk a bit, and I've realized that, technically, if you trade away your first level monk bonus feat (and thus Stunning Fist) for an ACF (such as, say, Nauseating Strike) and then take it later with a normal feat slot, you'd still get to add your Monk level to your Stunning Fist uses/day.
Outside of waiting until your BAB eventually gets high enough to take it normally or taking the first level of Monk, are there any ways to nab Stunning Fist without meeting its prerequisites? Some ACF for another class that gives you Monk bonus feats, perhaps? Or a prestige class that gives it to you if you don't already have it?
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2024-05-09, 01:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Get Stunning Fist?
Its a fighter bonus feat so you could take it at level 2 with martial monk.
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2024-05-09, 01:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Get Stunning Fist?
Last edited by ATHATH; 2024-05-09 at 01:13 PM.
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2024-05-09, 01:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Get Stunning Fist?
Shintao Monk gets bonus feats from a list that doesn't specify you need to meet the prerequisites, including Stunning Fist, so that might do the trick.
Entering Shintao Monk requires Still Mind, so 3 monk levels or 4 archivist levels.Creator of the LA-assignment thread.
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2024-05-09, 01:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Get Stunning Fist?
I did find that when searching for classes with "Stunning Fist" in their class feature descriptions, but I think that would fall under the same clause that covers Fighter bonus feats, no? Like, the ability doesn't specifically say that I can ignore prerequisites, so I can't.
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2024-05-09, 01:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Get Stunning Fist?
One source that I checked mentioned a "Golarion Monk" ACF that shuffles around the bonus feat list a bit, moving Stunning Fist to level 2 in the process. Unfortunately, I couldn't actually find this anywhere upon further research.
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2024-05-09, 01:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-05-09, 02:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Get Stunning Fist?
As far as I know, there's no direct ruling about meeting prerequisites for bonus feats that don't mention them either way? There's bonus feats that specifically say you need to meet the prereqs, and feats that specifically say you don't need to meet them, but I don't remember seeing a rule that says everything defaults one way or another.
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2024-05-09, 03:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Get Stunning Fist?
Rhymes with "Protracted."
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2024-05-09, 04:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Get Stunning Fist?
Yeah, and the default rule for bonus feats is that you don't need the prerequisites to use them.
"Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat."
So making that fit together... I guess you need to qualify for bonus feat Stunning Fist to get it, but not to use it? In which case lycanthropy shenanigans (get infected to boost BAB, take feat, get cured) might do the trick.Creator of the LA-assignment thread.
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2024-05-09, 04:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Get Stunning Fist?
The general rule for Bonus Feats is in the Monster Manual - Reading The Monster Entries:
Feats
The line gives the creature’s feats. A monster gains feats just as a character does. Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites.
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2024-05-09, 05:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Get Stunning Fist?
Rather than pick up stunning via Stunning Fist, you could look at Claytons' Stunning Fists like the Sudden Stunning (DMG 2) or Stunning Surge (MIC) weapon qualities. These link to CHA/day, but Stunning Surge is 1 round of stun, and Sudden Stunning is 1d4+1 rounds, they scale, and IIRC Stunning Surge doesn't target the Fort save.
If the problem is number of uses per day, have this quality on a couple of Ward Cestus (A&EG) (Cestii?) which then gives you the hit 2 x CHA/day on your unarmed strikes. Or on a Shield and the Shield's Spikes, make a Shield Slam. Or on both ends of a quarterstaff and go with TWF -- or even flurry, since a monk can use unarmed strikes interchangeably with a monk weapon, which a quarterstaff is. Or go all out and get both qualities on two Ward Cestii, both ends of a quarterstave, and on a Necklace of Natural Attacks. Total of 10xCHA/day stunning attacks since a Monk can use any part of his body for an unarmed strike, the quarterstaff can be used as part of a flurry, and the Ward Cestus goes over your knuckles like a gauntlet.
EDIT: In fact it could be raised to a total of 14xCHA/day stunning attacks, if you enchant and use two Blade Boots (FRCS) - as opposed to Boot Blades (CSco). When a monk uses Blade Boots, they attack as if unarmed, i.e. it's one more set of Sudden Stunning and Stunning Surge items.
Or look at other stuff that sort-of stuns, like Staggering Strike or effects that daze the enemy. A fair amount of stuff eventually winds up immune to stun.Last edited by Saintheart; 2024-05-09 at 08:19 PM.
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2024-05-09, 06:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Get Stunning Fist?
Martial monk is contentious for no reason whatsoever other than people WANTING it to be broken because they think monk is terrible.
This variant simply swaps one or more of a class's features for one or more class features of another class. A class feature gained works just as it did for its original class, including the level at which it is gained and any other effects, except as noted below.
Lose: -1 skill point per level (and -4 skill points at 1st level); no Knowledge skills as class skills.
Gain: Fighter bonus feat list to choose monk bonus feats (at 1st, 2nd, and 6th level); Intimidate is class skill.
Multiclass Options: This monk can multiclass between fighter and monk with no penalty.
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2024-05-09, 10:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-05-10, 01:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Get Stunning Fist?
It's improving the monk's class feature, expanding the list of feats that can be selected. If it was replacing it, it would say so.
Epic fighter bonus feats is an extra list of feats available to epic fighters, fighter bonus feats are feats that state they are fighter bonus feats in their description, epic fighter bonus feats don't have that.
I doubt this will be helpful, but punpun or an illithid savant can gain the monk's bonus feat class feature.am was here
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2024-05-10, 02:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Get Stunning Fist?
Wand of Heroics could also give you Stunning Fist for a while
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2024-05-10, 03:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Get Stunning Fist?
Spoiler
DM: At the end of the meal, the innkeeper is bringing you the cheese plate. Roll for initiative.
PC: Excuse me, what?
DM: I said, roll for initiative. They like their cheese really ripe in these parts. They have the ooze type.
"Excuse me, but... is it a GOOD or a BAD thing when the DM can't help bursting into laughter every time he hears the phrase 'level-appropriate encounter'? No, just curious..."
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2024-05-10, 04:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Get Stunning Fist?
That's the general rule for MONSTER bonus feats only.
No, it's the reverse: all bonus feat groups that stat to be waving the prerequisites are the exception to the general rule that feats require their prerequisites.
This canard has already been discussed at length, notably in the RAW threads, and yet it comes back regularly, that's amazing.Spoiler
DM: At the end of the meal, the innkeeper is bringing you the cheese plate. Roll for initiative.
PC: Excuse me, what?
DM: I said, roll for initiative. They like their cheese really ripe in these parts. They have the ooze type.
"Excuse me, but... is it a GOOD or a BAD thing when the DM can't help bursting into laughter every time he hears the phrase 'level-appropriate encounter'? No, just curious..."
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2024-05-10, 09:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Get Stunning Fist?
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2024-05-10, 09:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Get Stunning Fist?
Spoiler
DM: At the end of the meal, the innkeeper is bringing you the cheese plate. Roll for initiative.
PC: Excuse me, what?
DM: I said, roll for initiative. They like their cheese really ripe in these parts. They have the ooze type.
"Excuse me, but... is it a GOOD or a BAD thing when the DM can't help bursting into laughter every time he hears the phrase 'level-appropriate encounter'? No, just curious..."
Extended signature
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2024-05-10, 10:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Get Stunning Fist?
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2024-05-10, 11:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Get Stunning Fist?
FWIW, the Fists of Dal Quor PrC (Secrets of Sarlona) got the Stunning Strike class feature, which works almost exactly like the Stunning Fist feat - except you can make it with a weapon (in addition to the "usual" unarmed attack), and spend power points for higher DC (Although, it required "Chosen, Inspired, or kalashtar")
No:
"Feats need prerequisites" is a general rule;
"Bonus Feats don't need prerequisites" is a specific rule (along with other specific rules - like "Bonus Feats can't be retrained");
"Fighter's Bonus Feats need prerequisites" (and Wizard's Bonus Feats, and any other set of Bonus Feats which ask for prerequisites) is just even more specific rule. (Otherwise - why so many classes specifying the need to meet the prerequisites for the Bonus Feats they providing?)
For example: Jester class (Dragon Compendium) grants Deflect Arrows and Snatch Arrows bonus feats (at 2nd and 6th levels respectively), and the only "prerequisite" it asks for is ranks in Perform (comedy); and no - it doesn't says those feats are prerequisite-free; in your interpretation, does it mean Jester wouldn't be able to Deflect/Snatch Arrows until they got Improved Unarmed Strike (and Dex 13/15 - if they don't have it this high)?
Yes. And?.. "Monsters" are just Characters which are controlled by DM
Any links, if possible?
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2024-05-10, 06:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Ways to Get Stunning Fist?
Well, imposing the sickened condition by hitting someone really hard can be achieved by Brutal Strike, and your unarmed strikes are bludgeoning weapons generally.
Sickening Grasp does the same for gishes for at least one round even if they save.
Sickening Strike does it for those with sneak attack.
Getting the nauseated condition is a bit tougher, but some sort of channelling or Spellblade weapon combined with something like Stinking Cloud can achieve similar. Nauseating Breath is a 3rd level spell on the Sor, Wiz, and Clr lists, thus, eminently suitable for wands. Finger of Agony (CMage) is 4th level but shenanigans with Sanctum Spell could drop it to make it wand-eligible.
Originally Posted by ShurikVch
Last edited by Saintheart; 2024-05-10 at 09:39 PM.