monk multiclass options.

[adb82]

Hello,
I'm creating a new character for a campaign and i would play a monk (still not sure if open hand or astral self). I was noticing that the monk sinergize really well with the battle master and i was wondering if is viable, in a group where normally most of characters are kinda optimized, a split like 1 fighter/5 monk/ 2 or 3 fighter battle master/12 monk, total: monk 16 or 17/Battle master fighter 3 or 4. Here the first doubt: in theory the LV 17 ability of the monk's subclass is very nice even if you get it 3 levels after a straight monk, but monks seem to me very Asi's dependent as they have to grow Dex and Wis both, so i don't know if it would be better go fighter 4 for the Asi's or get those capstones.
Going on, i suppose to start with 17 Dex / 16 Wis with a Custom Lineage. As Asi's: Elven Accuracy & 18 Dex @1, Magic Initiate (Wizard: for find familiar, for have always the first attack with advantage and well, a familiar, and adding minor illusion and mage hand as cantrips, or one of the shape cantrips) @5, 20 Dex @8, 18 Wis @12, 20 Wis @16. (I'm assuming 4 LV of fighters here, but any suggestions on how to choose the feats with only 3 LV of fighters are welcome and I'm still not sure if start with Eleven Accuracy or with Magic Initiate). Fighting style would be Superior Technique and the manouvers Tripping Attack, Riposte and Brace. In this way i should lose some ki points but i will gain other abilities that recharge with short rest that are probably worth the loss (adding also action surge per long rest and some few healing with second wind), aren't them? 😅

Other idea I had was to get 2 levels of spore druid instead than fighter (so monk 18/druid 2, when would you put in the 2 druid LV?) : necrotic damage added to every attack and, thanks to Tasha, also a familiar for advantage on the first attack via wild shape, + of course some spells, cantrips and other druidic goodies. In this build is probably better the astral self. Would be nice to add fey touched somewhere for hex, but i still don't know which feats and Asi's progression is optimal here (edit: fey touched can be choosed instead than magic initiate, as i don't need it for this build), assuming the monk need hight Dex and Wis. Any suggestions are welcome.

In both cases: do you think the delay on ki and monk stuff is payed off by what those 2 characters gonna get multiclassing?

[Unoriginal]

Hello,
I'm creating a new character for a campaign and i would play a monk (still not sure if open hand or astral self). I was noticing that the monk sinergize really well with the battle master and i was wondering if is viable, in a group where normally most of characters are kinda optimized, a split like 1 fighter/5 monk/ 2 or 3 fighter battle master/12 monk, total: monk 16 or 17/Battle master fighter 3 or 4. Here the first doubt: in theory the LV 17 ability of the monk's subclass is very nice even if you get it 3 levels after a straight monk, but monks seem to me very Asi's dependent as they have to grow Dex and Wis both, so i don't know if it would be better go fighter 4 for the Asi's or get those capstones.
Going on, i suppose to start with 17 Dex / 16 Wis with a Custom Lineage. As Asi's: Elven Accuracy & 18 Dex @1, Magic Initiate (Wizard: for find familiar, for have always the first attack with advantage and well, a familiar, and adding minor illusion and mage hand as cantrips, or one of the shape cantrips) @5, 20 Dex @8, 18 Wis @12, 20 Wis @16. (I'm assuming 4 LV of fighters here, but any suggestions on how to choose the feats with only 3 LV of fighters are welcome and I'm still not sure if start with Eleven Accuracy or with Magic Initiate). Fighting style would be Superior Technique and the manouvers Tripping Attack, Riposte and Brace. In this way i should lose some ki points but i will gain other abilities that recharge with short rest that are probably worth the loss (adding also action surge per long rest and some few healing with second wind), aren't them? 😅

Other idea I had was to get 2 levels of spore druid instead than fighter (so monk 18/druid 2, when would you put in the 2 druid LV?) : necrotic damage added to every attack and, thanks to Tasha, also a familiar for advantage on the first attack via wild shape, + of course some spells, cantrips and other druidic goodies. In this build is probably better the astral self. Would be nice to add fey touched somewhere for hex, but i still don't know which feats and Asi's progression is optimal here, assuming the monk need hight Dex and Wis. Any suggestions are welcome.

In both cases: do you think the delay on ki and monk stuff is payed off by what those 2 characters gonna get multiclassing?

At which level will this character start, and at which do you think the campaign will end?

[adb82]

At which level will this character start, and at which do you think the campaign will end?

Oh well, we normally start at lv 1, till LV 20, but some few times we don't reach till there. Anyway consider 1-20.

Ps on the first build (monk/fighter), instead than the magic initiate feat, I'm considering also to get fey touched, for hex, however it would last only 1 hour a day and the advantage on the first round is very solid if you want to stun something and so get all your attacks for 2 turns with triple advantage.
In the second build I'm considering to get fighting initiate instead than fey touched, for blind fighting style and a good use of 3 fog cloud a day.

[Rukelnikov]

A couple things to unpack here, first off RAW Elven Accuracy isn't eligible for CL, but I'm assuming its allowed in your group.

Second, raising stats is indeed important for a Monk, but their relevance depends on the build in question, for a OH/BM build, Dex is much more important than Wis, for an Astral Self/Spores, Wis is much more important than Dex.

Magic Initiate doesn't seem worth an ASI usually, and I don't think this build is an exception, yeah familiars are great, but if you want it mainly for the advantage on your first attack of the turn, consider that you can only cast it once per day with MI and by Tier 2 onwards it will die to the first attack that lands, and it wont have a very good AC, so if its not impactful you've spend a feat in an unimpactful manner, and if it is impactful it will die pretty early in the adventuring day leaving you with no familiar for the rest of the day.

Regarding the build, personally I don't think Ftr is worth it for one level, 1 Superiority die per short rest at the cost of 1 ki point, is already kind of a wash, that ki point could be a Stunning Strike which is comparable to the better maneuvers albeit less flexible than having a Superiority die and 2 maneuvers. Add to that delaying all your monk features by 1 lvl, and I just don't see the worth of it. I think to make it worth it you need to get at least 3 levels in fighter, since then the trade becomes 3 ki points for 5 Superiority dice. If you go this route, I think Astral Self has a bit of an anti synergy since you've given extra weight to your secondary stat (Dex), its not terrible by any means, but while 16 Dex might be perfectly fine for a straight AS, that 16 dex will start felling a little low later on.

[Sorinth]

Not my build but you might find this interesting https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=831

[adb82]

A couple things to unpack here, first off RAW Elven Accuracy isn't eligible for CL, but I'm assuming its allowed in your group.

Second, raising stats is indeed important for a Monk, but their relevance depends on the build in question, for a OH/BM build, Dex is much more important than Wis, for an Astral Self/Spores, Wis is much more important than Dex.

Magic Initiate doesn't seem worth an ASI usually, and I don't think this build is an exception, yeah familiars are great, but if you want it mainly for the advantage on your first attack of the turn, consider that you can only cast it once per day with MI and by Tier 2 onwards it will die to the first attack that lands, and it wont have a very good AC, so if its not impactful you've spend a feat in an unimpactful manner, and if it is impactful it will die pretty early in the adventuring day leaving you with no familiar for the rest of the day.

Regarding the build, personally I don't think Ftr is worth it for one level, 1 Superiority die per short rest at the cost of 1 ki point, is already kind of a wash, that ki point could be a Stunning Strike which is comparable to the better maneuvers albeit less flexible than having a Superiority die and 2 maneuvers. Add to that delaying all your monk features by 1 lvl, and I just don't see the worth of it. I think to make it worth it you need to get at least 3 levels in fighter, since then the trade becomes 3 ki points for 5 Superiority dice. If you go this route, I think Astral Self has a bit of an anti synergy since you've given extra weight to your secondary stat (Dex), its not terrible by any means, but while 16 Dex might be perfectly fine for a straight AS, that 16 dex will start felling a little low later on.

We allow elven accuracy and custom lineage if you custom something related with elves, but even for who doesn't because they strictly follow RAW, it's ok to just don't take magic initiate as feat and go with any of the half elf subrace, with probably half drow being the best.

Yea, of course i was assuming to grow up first Dex in the monk/fighter build, while prioritize first wis on the astral/spore, but in the end i suppose i will need both rised to 20 for get a decent AC (this is more true on the monk/fighter build probably). My doubt on the astral/spore is more about the feats to choose (I think elven accuracy and fey touched, + maximize Wis and Dex is the answer, but I'm not sure in which order. Also fighting initiate: blind fighting style tempt me for have a good use of 3 fog cloud a day, that seems the only concentration spell worth in the available list, or 1 LV dip fighter for the same reason and for start fighter and get proficiency with Con saving throws for maintain concentration, however Wis savings from the druid are good as same or arguably better).

I agree with your assumption about magic initiate, it's anyway a squishy character, he can get that advantage even just being unseen, so probably Mobile is a better pick.

And yea, the build i posted have 3 (or 4, this was one of my doubt, because that Asi's can be very important) LV of fighter and than 5 superiority dice for 3 ki points was already my point. My other doubt here was indeed magic initiate, but i think you helped me enough to clarify that it's probably not worth a feat's slot.

Ps other way I'm considering is just 1 or 2 LV dip in cleric (so monk 19/cleric 1, probably war cleric, but also twilight is tempting for the advantage on initiative) for 2 (or 4) shield of faith a day and eventually divine favor or faerie fire. But it probably lack some damage.

[adb82]

Not my build but you might find this interesting https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=831

This is very nice, thank you. I know this build, I readed about it times ago in the forum, the concept is very similar with the open hand/battle master build i was writing about and it have an easier first attack with advantage and lots of interactions with the spells from shadow monk. I didn't consider that much the way of shadow just because the background and story i had in mind fits better with an open hand monk or an astral monk, but that build worked for sure as inspiration, it is certainly a great build, I'm just not sure is anyway playable with an open hand monk and that's why i was writing on the forum, but it's anyway under consideration because i like the concept a lot.

[Rukelnikov]

What is it you are looking for in this build? Do you want a martial controller? A straight DPS build? If I had a better understanding of what the north of this build is I could give a bit more advice maybe.

[adb82]

What is it you are looking for in this build? Do you want a martial controller? A straight DPS build? If I had a better understanding of what the north of this build is I could give a bit more advice maybe.

Yea, i was thinking more about a martial controller with a decent DPS than a DPS dedicated build, also because probably monks aren't that focused on deal hight damage, but I'm kinda open to anything i like. Grappling builds eventually also it's ok, it's not necessary, but it's one of the options on the table. I was even thinking to get only 1 LV of monk and go all bladesinger, just for get to use a quarterstaff with Dex and, via feat, go to push enemies in hazardous spells that cause damage and to be on difficult terrain, leaving Wis to 13 and focusing on Dex and Int. I probably would prefer something with more monks LV, but it's just an example for say that I'm totally open to everything. 😅

[Unoriginal]

I think watching this video can be more than worth your while:

[adb82]

I think watching this video can be more than worth your while:

This is interesting, but it don't convince me at all. I normally don't like go over fighter 11 and here there would be no reason to add more monks LV because it would duplicate second attack. And also with just few ki points I'm not that sure the dip is worth it. Honestly, there are some part of the video i didn't completely understand because he talks very fast, so i can be wrong. 😅