I don't like Rune Knight

[JellyPooga]

Title says it all really, but here's why.

1) Theme. The theme just feels a bit tacked on, very much as if it's a class designed from the abilities it offers and upward, rather than starting with the theme and working down.
- Why is studying the runecraft of giants a Fighter thing? Inscribing runes feels more like an Artificer thing. Study feels like a Wizard or Bard thing. Creature-feature themes feel more Druidic or Sorcerous and invoking Giants and/or their power and learning, spiritually or magically feels way more Barbarian or Warlock, generally speaking, than Fighter. Skill focus, which every rune offers, is more Rogue and Bard. Just about any Class but the Cleric or Monk would be a better fit, thematically, than Fighter.
- Why/how does it study the runes of multiple giant species, from the brutish and crude Hill Giant to the sophisticated and isolationist Storm Giant? Dragonborn and Draconic Sorcerers have to pick a lane and stick to it. Why are Fighter-Giants different, except that whoever designed it didn't put that much effort or care into actually theming their subclass?
- Where do the runes go after a long rest? Just a nit-pick, really, but inscribing a rune feels like something pretty permanent. Painting a rune on, yeah, I can go with that as a temporary thing, but inscribing implies a degree of permanence. After all, how are you supposed to..."[find] the giant's work carved into a hill or cave" if they all disappear after a day? Why does the Rune Knight get to pick and choose which runes to use every day outside of "because magic" or "something something game design"?

2) Skewey Balance. It just feels...off. There's some aspects that I could easily point at as blatant power creep or niche infringement on other Classes (if there is such a thing) and then there's other aspects that I look at and wonder why it's even there. For example, offering permanent advantage on 2-4 Skill proficiencies at level 3 is very good. Probably too good. Similarly, Cloud Rune is straight up just OP for 3rd level (and I rarely make that kind of statement). The closest other ability to Cloud Runes attack redirect I can think of is the Rogue Mastermind's Misdirection at 13th level and that comes with a heap of caveats and conditions. How is it redirecting that attack? Why doesn't it have a range limitation? Can it at least have a chance of failure? Too many questions on that one for my liking. Then on the flipside, Runic Juggernaut increases your 1/turn damage (it's not even once per anyone's turn, only on your own turn) from 1d8 to 1d10. Yes, you finally get to be Huge too (which if you're interested in being so, spellcasters have been offering with Polymorph since level 7)...but a whole extra point of average damage on one attack per turn for a minute? As your 18th level subclass capstone? Steady the horses of light and dark there, we need some balance back in this subclass! Seriously? Even the Champion Fighter is getting something vaguely exciting at that level.

3) Niche infringement. This harkens back to the theming argument, but Skill focus is a Rogue/Bard thing, so why is it in a Fighter subclass? Rage is a Barbarian thing, so why is it in a Fighter subclass? Miscellaneous magical abilities and functions are kind of a Warlock thing, so why are they in a Fighter subclass? I often see Rune Knight heralded as a poster child for why X Class or subclass isn't good or lacks lustre, but if Rune Knight is the exception rather than the norm, isn't it also the problem?

I just can't take the subclass seriously. It's a jumble of mis-matched theme, abilities and power that really doesn't gel for me. It consistently seems to be called out as an outlier, both in terms of power balance and roleplaying, for good and ill, so much so that I can't help but wonder why anyone would want to play it. I don't see the appeal outside of bland theory-craft or high-op play and even then, I really struggle to fit it into a greater whole that makes the game more fun for everyone at the table.

Can someone who actually likes this subclass explain why?

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Can someone who actually likes this subclass explain why?

Maybe, but I don't so I can't. I can't believe it got printed -- but I feel that way about most things in that awful book.

[KorvinStarmast]

Title says it all really, but here's why.

1) Theme. The theme just feels a bit tacked on, very much as if it's a class designed from the abilities it offers and upward, rather than starting with the theme and working down.
- Why is studying the runecraft of giants a Fighter thing? Inscribing runes feels more like an Artificer thing.

Nope. And I dislike artificers, tastes differ, but and here's where I think your comparison falls down:
artificers are tech PCs, runes are not tech. They are magic. Auld Majick.
Runes are a cultural thing; certain cultures will use runes and depending on the lore, runes can be magical.
The Rune Knight is a different way to do Eldritch Knight without using wizard spells.
I find it appealing due to the flexibility of the runes as well as the Fighter-Centric abilities. (The Rune shield is useful all game long).

As an aside: your leaning into the "stupid fighter" trope doesn't help your argument.
Giants. Yes, giants invented runes before humans began to contaminate the world. Eldritch lore and all that. Lean into it, amigo.

2) Skewey Balance.

Most of Tasha's is power creep.

More powerful than champion, and I think that the cloud giant ability is a bit more powerful than need be.
The range is wonky: if an ogre whacks me or my ally my reaction can move the effects of that attack 30 feet away to someone else.
I would not mind seeing melee version of that changed to "within reach" and a ranged / thrown version to be "within 30' of original target"

3) Niche infringement.

No.

My current Rune Knight is level 12.

Spoiler: why there is an MC

Show

(He has MC'd into Genie Warlock/Dao for campaign theme reasons, as we are all elementally linked in some way. I went with earth/rock/mountains since giants and mountains seem to go to together.

This alleged "niche infringement" is not a factor At All in our group. Many classes have a little bit of overlap (heck, bard is a major infringer on rogue as skill monkey)

Why Hill Giant Rune is later and Cloud Giant Rune is sooner is beyond me.
I suspect that they wanted to avoid the "resistance to damage" in Tier 1 that would perhaps make the Hill Giant OP.

The Frost Giant one is wonky in terms of how its bonuses do or don't fit in the same pattern as the others. That is the only Rune I have not used, but if I were in another campaign (like the Rime of the Frost Maiden) I'd probably make it a primary.

Have you played a Rune Knight?

[Amnestic]

Nope. And I dislike artificers, tastes differ, but and here's where I think your comparison falls down:
artificers are tech PCs, runes are not tech.

Yeah man. Artificers carving runes into items to make them magical=tech, whereas Rune Knights carving runes into items to make them magical="auld magick". Killer logic you got there.

[JellyPooga]

Nope. And I dislike artificers, tastes differ, but and here's where I think your comparison falls down:
artificers are tech PCs, runes are not tech. They are magic. Auld Majick.

Artificers aren't tech; they're magic. Everything they do is magic. Rogues are more tech than Artificer.

Runes are a cultural thing; certain cultures will use runes and depending on the lore, runes can be magical.
The Rune Knight is a different way to do Eldritch Knight without using wizard spells.

I can dig runes being non-spell magic but that doesn't explain why Fighter should get it. I like the idea of studying a culture to unlock its secrets, but what culture is actually shared between the different types of Giants beyond "they carve runes"? What makes the Fighter the Class to do it? I don't buy it as a theme for the Fighter specifically. It's got nothing to do with "stupid Fighters", which I don't think I even implied, let alone stated, but everything to do with Class themes and tropes. The Fighter is a Class themed with martial forms, weapons and styles of combat. Where does "uncovering ancient culture" come into that? Where does "learning hidden, magical crafts" fit into it? I'm not saying it can't be a Fighter thing, but it takes a bit of finagling; more than it would other Classes.

This alleged "niche infringement" is not a factor At All in our group. Many classes have a little bit of overlap (heck, bard is a major infringer on rogue as skill monkey)

Why add a Rage style feature to Fighter rather than enhance the Rage of Barbarian? Why add skill focus to Fighter instead of enhancing the skill focus of Rogue or Bard? Why add rune magic to Fighter instead of enhancing the magic of Warlock, Artificer or Wizard, who already have investment in magical styles? It just doesn't make sense stylistically or mechanically.

More powerful than champion, and I think that the cloud giant ability is a bit more powerful than need be.
The range is wonky: if an ogre whacks me or my ally my reaction can move the effects of that attack 30 feet away to someone else.
I would not mind seeing melee version of that changed to "within reach" and a ranged / thrown version to be "within 30' of original target"

Why Hill Giant Rune is later and Cloud Giant Rune is sooner is beyond me.
I suspect that they wanted to avoid the "resistance to damage" in Tier 1 that would perhaps make the Hill Giant OP.

The Frost Giant one is wonky in terms of how its bonuses do or don't fit in the same pattern as the others. That is the only Rune I have not used, but if I were in another campaign (like the Rime of the Frost Maiden) I'd probably make it a primary.

Yeah, all of this. It's wonky, as you say and that's entirely my point. Why would you want to play something so janky and so obviously in need of fixing?

Have you played a Rune Knight?

No and I don't want to, for all the reasons. I want to know why anyone would. All I have to do is look at it to know why I wouldn't.

[JackPhoenix]

- Why is studying the runecraft of giants a Fighter thing?

Agreed.

- Why/how does it study the runes of multiple giant species, from the brutish and crude Hill Giant to the sophisticated and isolationist Storm Giant?

Because all giants are (were) a single culture. The runes may indicate different subspecies, but come from the same civilization.

Dragonborn and Draconic Sorcerers have to pick a lane and stick to it. Why are Fighter-Giants different, except that whoever designed it didn't put that much effort or care into actually theming their subclass?

Because dragonborn and draconic sorcerers have biological connection, while Rune Knights study the runes. You can learn new stuf, but your biology won't change no matter how many books you read.

- Where do the runes go after a long rest? Just a nit-pick, really, but inscribing a rune feels like something pretty permanent. Painting a rune on, yeah, I can go with that as a temporary thing, but inscribing implies a degree of permanence. After all, how are you supposed to..."[find] the giant's work carved into a hill or cave" if they all disappear after a day? Why does the Rune Knight get to pick and choose which runes to use every day outside of "because magic" or "something something game design"?

Why can artificers only infuse so many items? Why can wizards only prepare so many spells? Why do spells have limited duration? It's magic.

2) Skewey Balance.

Kinda agreed. As KorvinStarmast said, TCoE is full of power creep.

3) Niche infringement. This harkens back to the theming argument, but Skill focus is a Rogue/Bard thing, so why is it in a Fighter subclass?

It isn't, and it isn't.

Rage is a Barbarian thing, so why is it in a Fighter subclass?

It isn't.

Miscellaneous magical abilities and functions are kind of a Warlock thing

Not really.

It's a jumble of mis-matched theme, abilities and power that really doesn't gel for me.

Now that I can agree with.

artificers are tech PCs

They very much aren't. Unless you for some unfathomable reason call magic items "tech". In which case, the wizardly magic falls into the same category.

[Amnestic]

I want to know why anyone would. All I have to do is look at it to know why I wouldn't.

I liked the passive+active rune features from a mechanics standpoint, and the opportunity to grow Big was appealing for my half-orc. Runecarving felt like a suitably 'oldstyle' magic for his tribal origins too.

I don't think having aesthetic crossover with other stuff as a subclass is an issue. Giants Barbarian and Rune Knight can both coexist. Why are they a fighter thing? 'cos it's a fighter subclass. They toyed with a rune-oriented wizard subclass (Runecrafter) but then decided not to print it.

The damage 1/turn is definitely a balance consideration rather than narrative - it was each attack during UA, but changed to 1/turn for its full release. I guess they didn't want it stacking on 4-8 attacks/turn.

I find the objection to RK on the matter of Martial Forms a little weird when Eldritch Knight exists though - magic via 'standard' spellcasting is fine for a fighter, but magic via runes isn't? Ditto for the maligned Arcane Archer (people don't have problems with its lore, they have issues with its mechanics).

[Unoriginal]

Can someone who actually likes this subclass explain why?

Sure, I can do it.

1) Theme.
- Why is studying the runecraft of giants a Fighter thing?

Because Fighters are the class that studies martial might in a systemic manner, and Giants have a lot of might to learn from.

Just about any Class but the Cleric or Monk would be a better fit, thematically, than Fighter.

Hard disagree.

- Why/how does it study the runes of multiple giant species, from the brutish and crude Hill Giant to the sophisticated and isolationist Storm Giant?

Runes are a system, a language, and one linked to all Giants, their gods and their Ordning. You study the language itself, and the past & present of the Giants.

- Where do the runes go after a long rest? Just a nit-pick, really, but inscribing a rune feels like something pretty permanent. Painting a rune on, yeah, I can go with that as a temporary thing, but inscribing implies a degree of permanence. After all, how are you supposed to..."[find] the giant's work carved into a hill or cave" if they all disappear after a day? Why does the Rune Knight get to pick and choose which runes to use every day outside of "because magic" or "something something game design"?

"To inscribe" means "to write or carve on something". The "or" part is important.

The Fighter is basically doing the equivalent of a Symbol spell.

2) Skewey Balance. It just feels...off. There's some aspects that I could easily point at as blatant power creep or niche infringement on other Classes (if there is such a thing)

In practice, the Rune Knight is probably weaker than the Battle Master.

It's not power creep, even if I admit there are wonky bits.

Cloud Rune is straight up just OP for 3rd level (and I rarely make that kind of statement).

It's powerful, but it's once per long rest. You have to use it carefully to make it "extremely strong" as opposed to "nice, not getting hit this one time".

It also doesn't work against solo enemies, unless you want your teammates to eat the attack instead of you.

All in all if they had swapped the Hill Giant Rune and the Cloud Giant Rune I think no one would have complained about the power.

The closest other ability to Cloud Runes attack redirect I can think of is the Rogue Mastermind's Misdirection at 13th level and that comes with a heap of caveats and conditions.

The Drunken Master can redirect any missed melee attack against them into an auto-hit to an adjacent enemy, at level 6. Doesn't even cost a Reaction, so long as they have ki to spend they can do it.

3) Niche infringement

There is no such thing. Fighters can be good at skills, can have miscellaneous or even powerful magical perks, resist damage, and so on and so on.

Are you against the Eldritch Knight? The Psi Warrior? The Battle Master with the Maneuvres that improve skill proficiency?

I just can't take the subclass seriously.

Maybe the fact you can't take it seriously is coloring your perception of the subclass, more than your perception of the class making you not take it seriously.

[JellyPooga]

It isn't, and it isn't.

It isn't.

Not really.

5 of the 6 Runes offer a bonus to one or more Ability Checks. Sounds like a skills focus thing to me.

Giant's Might is an ability that gives you advantage on Strength checks and bonus damage and you can use it 2-6 times per long rest, depending on you level. Sounds at least a bit like a Barbarian Rage to me.

Warlock Invocations are probably the closest analogue to the miscellany of both the short rest and permanent features offered by the Runes. I'm willing to back down on this one, seeing as lots of Classes get miscellaneous features of this kind, though I do think the Warlock has a higher concentration of them.

[Mastikator]

They very much aren't. Unless you for some unfathomable reason call magic items "tech". In which case, the wizardly magic falls into the same category.

Ehhhhhhhh, if magic items and phenomena can reliably be made in a factory or workshop then it is tech. And if it's underlying nature can be understood, hypothesized and tested, then it's also a science. (it can still also be an art, much like music is a combination of technology, science and art in real life)

As you know, in the *Eberron setting the giants were gifted the knowledge of magic from the dragons. They expressed their magical technology through runes, eldritch devices and spells. An artificer may well be using runes to infuse their items with magic and cast spells. But runes are just a form of magical technology, a magical effect put onto a surface. I'd argue any class with arcane magic capability is compatible with "put runes on things".

That said, I think that fighter is a fantastic choice, but I wouldn't have minded if they also added a rune scribe artificer subclass.

-

*if anyone is wondering why I'm bringing up Eberron, it's a) where artificers were first added, b) it's the first and only setting (AFAIK) where magic is science, and c) because of the magical giants connection to rune knights.

[Amnestic]

Ehhhhhhhh, if magic items and phenomena can reliably be made in a factory or workshop then it is tech.

If I enchant a magic item in my wizard's tower, it's magic, but if I enchant it in a 'lab' in the exact same way, it's tech?

And if it's underlying nature can be understood, hypothesized and tested, then it's also a science. (it can still also be an art, much like music is a combination of technology, science and art in real life)

Sounds like wizards spellbooks are tech then, as are all magic items.

Didn't know every D&D setting was so high tech before, but the more you know...

[KorvinStarmast]

I liked the passive+active rune features from a mechanics standpoint, and the opportunity to grow Big was appealing for my half-orc. Runecarving felt like a suitably 'oldstyle' magic for his tribal origins too.

Indeed. My vHuman gets large now and again. (I think the reach increase when large ought to come sooner, but that's me quibbling).

Giants Barbarian and Rune Knight can both coexist.

Rune Knight came first, and I agree they can co exist.

They toyed with a rune-oriented wizard subclass (Runecrafter) but then decided not to print it.

For which we are grateful.

The damage 1/turn is definitely a balance consideration rather than narrative - it was each attack during UA, but changed to 1/turn for its full release. I guess they didn't want it stacking on 4-8 attacks/turn.

Bingo. Rage damage is per attack.

5 of the 6 Runes offer a bonus to one or more Ability Checks. Sounds like a skills focus thing to me.

People have been pissing and moaning about the lack of skill proficiencies for the fighter class which "makes it boring." This solves that. And it does it gradually, not in a front-loaded style. As you go up in level and can use more runes, you get another skill with advantage on rolls. I get advantage on arcana rolls as a Fighter. Yeah, you get to be more versatile to adventuring for longer. Nice concept, eh? My fire rune gives me proficiency in Smith's Tools. The only rune that doesn't add a proficiency is Hill Giant (maybe due to their low int?) but it offers poison resistance.

Giant's Might is an ability that gives you advantage on Strength checks and bonus damage and you can use it 2-6 times per long rest, depending on you level. Sounds at least a bit like a Barbarian Rage to me.

Nope, it isn't rage, and the bonus damage is once per turn, not once per attack. Only Hill Giant offers damage resistance to B/P/S.

Warlock Invocations are probably the closest analogue to the miscellany of both the short rest and permanent features offered by the Runes. I'm willing to back down on this one, seeing as lots of Classes get miscellaneous features of this kind, though I do think the Warlock has a higher concentration of them.

Just play one. It will be fun.
And yes, all of the runes recharge on a short rest. Goodness.

[JellyPooga]

Sure, I can do it.

Have at it!

Hard disagree.

Please explain why.

Runes are a system, a language, and one linked to all Giants, their gods and their Ordning. You study the language itself, and the past & present of the Giants.

The Fighter is basically doing the equivalent of a Symbol spell.

Ok, I'll bite/concede on these. It's intriguing/engaging enough that I'll let it go as a sticking point, at least.

It's powerful, but it's once per long short rest. You have to use it carefully to make it "extremely strong" as opposed to "nice, not getting hit this one time".

Fixed it for you. There's a big difference and unlike the Drunken Monk, it works on a hit, not a miss, which is crazy better. It definitely needs toning down or level gating.

There is no such thing. Fighters can be good at skills, can have miscellaneous or even powerful magical perks, resist damage, and so on and so on.

Are you against the Eldritch Knight? The Psi Warrior? The Battle Master with the Maneuvres that improve skill proficiency?

You'll note that I questioned whether niche infringement even exists myself and no, I'm not against the likes of the Eldritch Knight any more than I am the Bard, Druid or any other Class or subclass that occupies multiple roles. What I'm really questioning is why the Rune Knight spreads itself so thin, thematically and mechanically, across a spectrum of other niches when had it occupied that niche in the first place, would or could have been so much more than it is.

For example. Let's run with the Rune Knight as a Barbarian subclass instead of Fighter.
1) Barbarians are a specifically Strength themed Class with strong ties to clan culture, tradition and savagery. Slotting Giants into this trope is not difficult by any stretch of the imagination. Runes and their use, both in divination and in markings/tattoos have a solid tie to shamanistic and "barbaric" cultures. Theme is 100% on point here.
2) Then there's the Runes themselves. Does it matter that runes have to be on equipment? I mean, it's only a minor limitation given that you inscribe runes every day. Why not just make them a more generic feature, fluffed as whatever you want; woad paint, etched in your armour, tattoos, ritual scarification...you do your runes however you want; open up the theme to more than just inscribing runes on their arms&armour. Thematically still on point for Giants, given the broad range of giant cultures our PC could have learned from and it gels with Barbarian nicely.
3) If we're running with Giants as an ancient culture, let's add a little sophistication to it; we already have our "Roid Rage get Big" feature, so let's look at other giant stuff for our runic inspiration. Storm Giant Divination? Yeah, cool. Throw it in for a shaman feel. Crafting with Fire Giants? Heck yeah, no-one wants to wear heavy armour in the forge; get that naked Barbarian schtick going! Prefer chillier climes? Frost Giants baby! Only the gnarliest of Cimmerians tackle those frigid wastes. You see how the different Runes/Giant types could play upon and enhance already existing Barbarian themes?
4) Then there's mechanics. Specifically Rage. Hey, we already have a mechanic we're utilising in this class that offers bonus damage and advantage on strength checks. Great. Let's make it better by offering a size increase (maybe even more additional damage) and perhaps even some scaling by level or on-choice elemental damage from different Giant types. No need to add a mechanic and a pool of depletable resources to a Class, when we have a Class that already uses that mechanic.

edit: Ok, so I only just found out that Path of the Giant Barbarian is a thing. I still think Rune Knight fits Barbarian better thematically and mechanically.

edit2: Giant's Might is definitely akin to adding Rage to Fighter. Nitpicking details doesn't make it less true.

[KorvinStarmast]

No, Giant's might is not rage. You can still concentrate on a spell if you are Giantish. And I DO!

MC into warlock, Protection from Evil/Good, get large, and I have advantage and proficiency on CON saves to keep that spell up. So I can do toe to toe with elementals, fiends, etc and they all have disadvantage to attack me. (The ranged spell casters will still cause me some problems, though).

[Sindal]

Well

I've dmd for one or two players that picked up the option. It wasn't long running sessions but both enjoyed the experienced

I would imagine it appeals to people that want magixal like abilities and perksto add to their repertoire but don't want to fiddle around with 'actual spells' to get them. Instead they're learning a magic empowered language as a more manageable half measure to get there.

It's worth noting that fighters are not dumb. They are skilled combatants who can use any weapon or armor. They've practiced. They've studied martial prowess. And they fight, or can fight, in tactical ways to show this off.

Usually thse kinds of 'magic but not actually magic' features get thrown at say, barbarian or monk. But they already have those subclasses that make thrm "magical but not" so what good would giving it to them do?

All of these classes have a different feel to them too. So I can see how rune knight might appeal to someone who isn't just trying to be "super martial man" but Aldo isn't trying to be some spellsword

[JackPhoenix]

5 of the 6 Runes offer a bonus to one or more Ability Checks. Sounds like a skills focus thing to me.

So is Enhance Ability. Or Rage. Or a familiar using Help. Or Knowledge cleric. Or dwarven Stonecunning. Note that I'm picking specifically options from the PHB, because there would be a lot more of that if I used other books, too.

Giant's Might is an ability that gives you advantage on Strength checks and bonus damage and you can use it 2-6 times per long rest, depending on you level. Sounds at least a bit like a Barbarian Rage to me.

Sounds like Enlarge/Reduce knock-off to me. Is that a barbarian Rage too?

[stoutstien]

While the flavor is a tad off it's one of the best "play" options in the game.

It has a wide array of tools but each pool itself is small. Additionally none of them are win buttons to smash. it takes situational tactics and counterplay to utilize. Unlike a single pool, or pools that can feed each other, you need to be engaged to get the most out of it both as a class and as party of a party.

Bonus points for not using spells or spells(not spells).

[Waazraath]

Can someone who actually likes this subclass explain why?

I liike it.

Thematics is a matter of taste, so I won't go too much into it. I don't mind a 'giant' subclass for fighters, and while the rune magic stuff might be fleshed out a bit more (e.g. why is it only available for members of this subclass?) I think 'rune magic' is a tried and tested fantasy trope.

Balance is fine afaic. Pure damage wise, a Battle Master is still stronger. Also compared to the Eldritch Knight or Psi warrior it's fine. Yes, it's more powerful than the Champion or Arcane Archer, but that's more a flaw of those subclasses than that's something wrong with the RK

Niche infringement A fighter should be able to be both though and/or skillfull without that being infringement towards the Barbarian or Rogue. Furhtermore, 5e took the direction that different niches for classes are not strictly enforced. With all splatbooks available we have healing wizards and warlocks, and area blasting clerics. Though I could make an argument that (sub)classes more having their own niche has advantages, that's simply not the direction the game has been going and if casters can easiliy cross traditional class boundries, why should the fighter not?

Additionally, it's imo a fun and powerful subclass, that makes a number of different builds possible, and which compensates for the critique on fighters that they only do combat well. A lot of the options of RK improve what the character does out of combat, which is something the fighter needed. Many don't like the book, but Tasha's has delivered some good stuff here, also for instance for the BM with the new skill maneuvers.

[JellyPooga]

So is Enhance Ability. Or Rage. Or a familiar using Help. Or Knowledge cleric. Or dwarven Stonecunning. Note that I'm picking specifically options from the PHB, because there would be a lot more of that if I used other books, too.

Note that Enhance Ability and Rage, to pick the first two and probably call out a majority of others you might care to mention, do not function the same way; gated either by time limit or resource. Rune Knight just has them, much as a Ranger chooses their favoured enemy or additional skill proficiency, or the Rogue their Expertise. They are quite different features, as is a familiar using help, it being an entirely separate creature; you might as well call out "having a party" is the same as having a skill focus at that point. "Being a dwarf" is closer in function, granted.

Sounds like Enlarge/Reduce knock-off to me. Is that a barbarian Rage too?

It is an Englarge/Reduce knock-off. Literally. And yes, they share a very similar game space by fulfilling almost identical criteria. Giants' Might and Rage are more similar to one another than Enlarge/Reduce is to either by dint of duration, being non-magical, being self-only and occupying a unique resource pool. So yeah, whilst the spell is similar, the two abilities in question are even more similar.

No, Giant's might is not rage. You can still concentrate on a spell if you are Giantish. And I DO!

MC into warlock, Protection from Evil/Good, get large, and I have advantage and proficiency on CON saves to keep that spell up. So I can do toe to toe with elementals, fiends, etc and they all have disadvantage to attack me. (The ranged spell casters will still cause me some problems, though).

That's great for you and I'm sure you have a blast being able to utilise several features that would otherwise, for another character, occupy multiple concentration slots (and folk claim there's no power creep ), but it doesn't address the fact that Giant's Might and Rage occupy very similar design space, nor the actual issue of why adding it to a Class that doesn't have it is preferable (from a design standpoint), to enhancing it on a Class that already does.

[JellyPooga]

I liike it.

Thematics is a matter of taste, so I won't go too much into it. I don't mind a 'giant' subclass for fighters, and while the rune magic stuff might be fleshed out a bit more (e.g. why is it only available for members of this subclass?) I think 'rune magic' is a tried and tested fantasy trope.

Balance is fine afaic. Pure damage wise, a Battle Master is still stronger. Also compared to the Eldritch Knight or Psi warrior it's fine. Yes, it's more powerful than the Champion or Arcane Archer, but that's more a flaw of those subclasses than that's something wrong with the RK

Niche infringement A fighter should be able to be both though and/or skillfull without that being infringement towards the Barbarian or Rogue. Furhtermore, 5e took the direction that different niches for classes are not strictly enforced. With all splatbooks available we have healing wizards and warlocks, and area blasting clerics. Though I could make an argument that (sub)classes more having their own niche has advantages, that's simply not the direction the game has been going and if casters can easiliy cross traditional class boundries, why should the fighter not?

Additionally, it's imo a fun and powerful subclass, that makes a number of different builds possible, and which compensates for the critique on fighters that they only do combat well. A lot of the options of RK improve what the character does out of combat, which is something the fighter needed. Many don't like the book, but Tasha's has delivered some good stuff here, also for instance for the BM with the new skill maneuvers.

I think I'm starting to realise that A) the theme just isn't my cup of tea, which is getting in the way of my objectivity and B) I'm not really seeing the highlighted "number of builds" thing. Yes, RK adds a desired versatility to the Fighter, but by the end of the Class, you're choosing the one option you're not having that day, rather than the several you are. The pool of runes is very small and for a class that on the surface is offering a choice, it feels more restrictive than it perhaps actually is. Counterpoint it against the Totem Warrior Barbarian, even just the options from the PHB; there's 27 variations within the choices on offer over the course of the Class and while you only get to pick one of those suites of abilities and it's locked in once made, it's a great deal more variety of build than RK offers. Especially given how janky RK is. Let's face it, at level 3, I'd be willing to bet that most players are going to choose Cloud and Fire Runes and never look back on them because who doesn't want extra damage and one free Hammer Time per short rest? At 7th, most will choose Hill because they wanted to be a Barbarian. 10th Storm because Lore Bards and Diviners can't have all the fun messing with other peoples dice rolls and at 15th throw in Stone as "last picked" because Frost sucks by the time you're bothering to get it. Where's the build choice? It's a pretty monochromatic subclass, which again brings me back to the point that it just doesn't feel finished, let alone polished.

[Dr.Samurai]

I think I'm starting to realise that A) the theme just isn't my cup of tea, which is getting in the way of my objectivity and B) I'm not really seeing the highlighted "number of builds" thing. Yes, RK adds a desired versatility to the Fighter, but by the end of the Class, you're choosing the one option you're not having that day, rather than the several you are. The pool of runes is very small and for a class that on the surface is offering a choice, it feels more restrictive than it perhaps actually is. Counterpoint it against the Totem Warrior Barbarian, even just the options from the PHB; there's 27 variations within the choices on offer over the course of the Class and while you only get to pick one of those suites of abilities and it's locked in once made, it's a great deal more variety of build than RK offers. Especially given how janky RK is. Let's face it, at level 3, I'd be willing to bet that most players are going to choose Cloud and Fire Runes and never look back on them because who doesn't want extra damage and one free Hammer Time per short rest? At 7th, most will choose Hill because they wanted to be a Barbarian. 10th Storm because Lore Bards and Diviners can't have all the fun messing with other peoples dice rolls and at 15th throw in Stone as "last picked" because Frost sucks by the time you're bothering to get it. Where's the build choice? It's a pretty monochromatic subclass, which again brings me back to the point that it just doesn't feel finished, let alone polished.

The theme is not my cup of tea either, and I think the subclass is really cluttered and disjointed. You have runes that activate with a bonus action, a reaction, a reaction at the end of someone's turn, a bonus action that gives you a reaction ability for 1 minute. Then Giant's Might is a bonus action, and Runic Shield is a reaction. To me, it feels all over the place and busy.

When we always differentiate the barbarian and the fighter as brute warrior and skilled warrior respectively, tacking on Adv to Str checks/saves, bonus damage, and resistance to BPS seems inappropriate on the fighter class, especially when you're also letting them grow large, which benefits that more "brute" style of fighting. I'm sure people would have something to say if a barbarian subclass granted the fighter's Extra Attack and Action Surge.

All that said, I just retheme the subclass. Probably my most favorite character to date is the one I'm currently playing and he's a human rune knight, and I flavor Giant's Might as 3.5 Righteous Might, as he is a devotee of Erythnul. The different runes are the different sacred forms Erythnul takes in combat, etc.

I think the rune knight can use some cleaning up for sure, and it doesn't exactly scream "giant history/culture" to me. But I don't need it to, I can just make of it what I want. And the busy features, well, a lot of times I just use the strongest ones, and in encounters that are either going on for much longer or aren't super challenging, I make use of the other features.

[stoutstien]

I think I'm starting to realise that A) the theme just isn't my cup of tea, which is getting in the way of my objectivity and B) I'm not really seeing the highlighted "number of builds" thing. Yes, RK adds a desired versatility to the Fighter, but by the end of the Class, you're choosing the one option you're not having that day, rather than the several you are. The pool of runes is very small and for a class that on the surface is offering a choice, it feels more restrictive than it perhaps actually is. Counterpoint it against the Totem Warrior Barbarian, even just the options from the PHB; there's 27 variations within the choices on offer over the course of the Class and while you only get to pick one of those suites of abilities and it's locked in once made, it's a great deal more variety of build than RK offers. Especially given how janky RK is. Let's face it, at level 3, I'd be willing to bet that most players are going to choose Cloud and Fire Runes and never look back on them because who doesn't want extra damage and one free Hammer Time per short rest? At 7th, most will choose Hill because they wanted to be a Barbarian. 10th Storm because Lore Bards and Diviners can't have all the fun messing with other peoples dice rolls and at 15th throw in Stone as "last picked" because Frost sucks by the time you're bothering to get it. Where's the build choice? It's a pretty monochromatic subclass, which again brings me back to the point that it just doesn't feel finished, let alone polished.

Stone isn't something to write off especially at lower levels. A reaction based CC that doesn't break on damage and targets a weak save vs big tough foes can out pace the mitigation of both fire and cloud combined.
Super DV is also one of the stronger passive at these levels.


As for comparisons to barbs, the chassis is bad and shouldn't be the baseline for anything. Talk about one note/one build/ one trick/ bad theme classes.

[Unoriginal]

Last year, I DM a Fighter-only one-shot, with all characters pre-gen by me.

Long story short, the 4 lvl 5 PCs found themselves having to defend a fort serving as chokepoint in a mountain pass against a whole hobgoblin army, at least until their allies could show up as reinforcement with their own army.

One of them was a Human Rune Knight with the Athlete background, specialized in unarmed fighting and wrestling.

The Rune Knight player had the idea of making it look and sound like the fort was defended by a whole garrison instead of just 4 people, and thanks to the Cloud Rune and the decent CHA he had he actually pulled it off.

This changed the hobgoblins' plans, and they decided to send an infiltration unit to get the fort's gates open or at least gather information, before sending the mooks en masse. The PCs managed to deal with them easily enough once they got spotted.

Then troll mercenaries got upset at the waiting-for-the-boss-to-arrive decision the hobgoblin currently in charge had taken, so the trolls did a frontal assault against the gates. It was a tough fight, but the PCs emerged victorious without losing anyone still, thanks to clever uses of their abilities and of the defensive measures they had the time to prepare.

After that, the hobgoblin leader arrived to take charge of the situation, and decided to talk with the PCs before attacking. After a short talk, thinking it would take too long to conquer the fort by sending the whole army, and seeing that the Rune Knight was a famous pugilist (as per the Athlete background's feature), the hobgoblin leader decided to propose solving this by a duel. Him vs the Rune Knight, no armor or weapon or outside help or lethal blow, and the side of whoever lost had to retreat.

The PCs agreed to that, and leader & Rune Knight entered the ring.

It was a pretty even fight, all things considered. The leader could punch more precisely and more often than his opponent, and could take a lot of punishment, but the Rune Knight punched harder and was simply the superior grappler, without a doubt, especially after growing to his Giant size.

The Rune Knight won, the leader kept his word, and his army retreated, with the group succeeding in keeping the fort safe until their allies' arrival a few hours later.

[JellyPooga]

Stone isn't something to write off especially at lower levels. A reaction based CC that doesn't break on damage and targets a weak save vs big tough foes can out pace the mitigation of both fire and cloud combined.
Super DV is also one of the stronger passive at these levels.

Stone's CC is decent, for sure. Quite why the DC is Con based I don't know; whatever happened to this being a subclass based on research and learning? I digress. Regardless of how effective it might be, the other runes (bar Frost) have shinier labels (Damage! Damage Reduction! Can't Touch This!) that I suspect are more appealing to the average "I want to push buttons but not cast spells" crowd. Stone's ability looks suspiciously like a spell. That and Charmed is a relatively commonly resisted status effect. I'm not saying it's worthless by any means, but it is one of the more limited rune features by comparison.

As for comparisons to barbs, the chassis is bad and shouldn't be the baseline for anything. Talk about one note/one build/ one trick/ bad theme classes.

The same criticisms might be levelled at the Fighter. Some might say the Fighter is the one with less dimensions and worse theming (dare I say, myself included). Potato Potato.

[Schwann145]

I think the underlying problem is really that, if we're being honest, Fighter lacks a theme. It's the "blank slate" class.
Barbarian is a "fighter" but it's a specific style/theme of fighter, and something like Rune Knight fits very well into that Barbarian theme.

But you can make that argument for literally every single Fighter subclass - a different "fighter" class could easily cover it.
Champion? Barbarian/Paladin both fit nicely.
Battle Master? Paladin/Ranger both do it well.
Eldritch Knight? Stepping on Bladelocks toes and Bladesinger Wizards have been doing it far longer.
On and on the list can go.

[Amnestic]

The same criticisms might be levelled at the Fighter. Some might say the Fighter is the one with less dimensions and worse theming (dare I say, myself included). Potato Potato.

Fighter gets one more subclass feature slot (3rd, 7th, 10th, 15th, 18th) vs. Barbarians (3rd, 6th, 10th, 14th). Easier to express a subclass' themes and stuff with an extra level to do so. Even if that is just "now you grow HUGE instead of LARGE"

(this is also part of my issues with Bard - 3 subclass features? Really?)

[stoutstien]

Stone's CC is decent, for sure. Quite why the DC is Con based I don't know; whatever happened to this being a subclass based on research and learning? I digress. Regardless of how effective it might be, the other runes (bar Frost) have shinier labels (Damage! Damage Reduction! Can't Touch This!) that I suspect are more appealing to the average "I want to push buttons but not cast spells" crowd. Stone's ability looks suspiciously like a spell. That and Charmed is a relatively commonly resisted status effect. I'm not saying it's worthless by any means, but it is one of the more limited rune features by comparison.



The same criticisms might be levelled at the Fighter. Some might say the Fighter is the one with less dimensions and worse theming (dare I say, myself included). Potato Potato.

How does stone look any more like a spell than any of the others? If anything it's evidence that spells get easy access to conditions where everything else is slatted for damage of movement.

[Rerem115]

...Didn't we just have another pair of 'Rogues/Fighters/Barbarians need more toys' threads? I like a lot of the Tasha's changes, and in some cases cough Ranger cough I feel like they didn't go far enough!

With that out of the way, I like the Rune Knight. It says 'Giants are cunning, crafty, tough, and most importantly, big bastards, and by learning their ways, you can be, too'. It speaks to the image of a warrior who, while steeped in the ways of the Old Magic, prefers to bludgeon people to bits. Really, the only options they had for that particular archetype were Fighter and Barbarian!

All of this is overlaid with a pop-cultural mishmash of iconic Norse and Celtic tropes, and it works well in play.

You are the carpenter, the stonemason, the smith. The biggest person in the room, the ordinarily straightforward warrior who can still surprise you with deception when need be, and the abilities all play into that fantasy.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I think the underlying problem is really that, if we're being honest, Fighter lacks a theme. It's the "blank slate" class.
Barbarian is a "fighter" but it's a specific style/theme of fighter, and something like Rune Knight fits very well into that Barbarian theme.

But you can make that argument for literally every single Fighter subclass - a different "fighter" class could easily cover it.
Champion? Barbarian/Paladin both fit nicely.
Battle Master? Paladin/Ranger both do it well.
Eldritch Knight? Stepping on Bladelocks toes and Bladesinger Wizards have been doing it far longer.
On and on the list can go.

One day they'll be ready to hear me when I say rangers, barbarians, paladins and monks should all be fighters.

[JellyPooga]

How does stone look any more like a spell than any of the others? If anything it's evidence that spells get easy access to conditions where everything else is slatted for damage of movement.

Weeeell, giving someone the ol' laaazy eye and sending them into a sleepy stupor definitely feels more like a singular case of eyebrow wiggling and swirly eyes than if it were a good old fashioned bonk on the head and compared to swinging your axe around and it being somewhat more flamey than a regular axe, being tougher and/or stronger than usual for a bit, or even passivley chaneling the foresight granted by a mystic rune you've had carved in your forehead helmet all day...the Stone Rune definitely feels more like a spell than the others to me.