I think there can be trans characters

[Larrx]

Just to put some fun positivity in the thread, Sabine reads like a great genderfluid character to me. She presents female most of the time, but she presents male too, and not just for disguise.

Her boyfriend is embarrassed to discuss his sex life in public (and aren't we all), but he clearly has no problem with it in the bedroom.

She's unabashed, and unself-concious, and awesome.

Of course, she's a succubus in universe so maybe no one else sees her as fluid, and that's fair, but she's proud and accepted. Imho there have been some successes.

Also, please don't suggest that I see trans stuff everywhere because of my broken mutant imagination. I really don't.

Sabine is a boy sometimes and a girl other times, the interpretation, while likely rare, is reasonable.

[Riftwolf]

I'd like to say thanks to the Giant for his succinct and well-received post. I know he doesn't come to the forums much anymore, but I'm glad he did before it started getting ugly again.
I'm not sure if this is a topic I should post on a different subforum, but are there examples of good trans representation in fantasy people could recommend? The only ones I know of are 'Wicked and the Divine' and 'Alesha, who Smiles at Death' from m:tg (which I thought was a lot more tastefully handled than it could've been).

[hamishspence]

I'm not sure if this is a topic I should post on a different subforum, but are there examples of good trans representation in fantasy people could recommend? The only ones I know of are 'Wicked and the Divine' and 'Alesha, who Smiles at Death' from m:tg (which I thought was a lot more tastefully handled than it could've been).

Alex in Rick Riordan's Magnus Chase series maybe? (books 2 and 3: Hammer of Thor and Ship of the Dead).

[hroþila]

The way Andromeda handled it seemed a little forced and did smell of tokenism to me, but honestly, the controversy around it was blown way out of proportion.

Yeah, I can't say much because I haven't played it myself, but my impression from what I've read is that it received all sorts of unfair criticism, most of it from people with an axe to grind and a very particular political agenda, and that at the end of the day it was a pretty decent ME game despite its problems. The bits of criticism towards its treatment of its trans character that I saw didn't come from those bro gamer circles I mentioned, but it wouldn't surprise me if they got on board with it too because that'd be consistent with their concern trolling MO.

No, he's talking about the issue of "hormones" being used to dismiss women as irrational, in a way which typically doesn't happen with men. See also: PMS and Periods, which is especially galling when one considers that, during those time periods, a women's increased aggression is caused by increased testrone...Which is a hormone guys have more of than women at all times. So, if women are irrational when on their periods...You can follow me here

100% this.

[Larrx]

I'd like to say thanks to the Giant for his succinct and well-received post. I know he doesn't come to the forums much anymore, but I'm glad he did before it started getting ugly again.
I'm not sure if this is a topic I should post on a different subforum, but are there examples of good trans representation in fantasy people could recommend? The only ones I know of are 'Wicked and the Divine' and 'Alesha, who Smiles at Death' from m:tg (which I thought was a lot more tastefully handled than it could've been).

If you count magical girls as fantasy, then Sleepless Domain by cubewatemelon has a young trans girl that, if I know anything about narrative structure, will be main cast, but we haven't seen much of her yet. It's only 300 some odd pages in, and if you can burn through the archive in an hour or two it's still a baby comic to me, but I'm probably spoiled.

Sister Claire, by Ashmino and co., is fantasy and has . . . just a bunch of gendergueer folks. There's some post-apoc-similar-to-our-world stuff, so there's some fans and light bulbs around, but it's minor. Also there is weeeks of content between the main comic, missing moments (backstory shortstories), and live writes(stuff that may become canon, AU stuff, sexy stuff). Bring tissues.

Goodbye to Halos, I forget the authors name (sorry author), has a trans women lead, but is just getting started.

Those are all webcomics, not sure which form of media you were looking for.

[Adghar]

Nobody has the "sensitivity" to talk about sensitive subjects without offending anyone.

Sure. But that doesn't stop creators from trying to do better by a greater number of people, reducing the overall offense level.

There's just no way to please *everyone*.

Creators often do like to try, though! And in the process of striving towards that goal, sometimes improvement happens. I think I already mentioned the analogy, so excuse me if I sound like a broken record, but even though world peace is probably unattainable in our lifetime, I still admire those who work towards it and do believe their efforts do have some degree of impact on the world being better, if only just by a smidgen.

[Aveline]

I'd like to say thanks to the Giant for his succinct and well-received post. I know he doesn't come to the forums much anymore, but I'm glad he did before it started getting ugly again.
I'm not sure if this is a topic I should post on a different subforum, but are there examples of good trans representation in fantasy people could recommend? The only ones I know of are 'Wicked and the Divine' and 'Alesha, who Smiles at Death' from m:tg (which I thought was a lot more tastefully handled than it could've been).

Dark Souls has a great example (IMO) in Gwyndolin, except for a localization technicality where all the flavor text misgenders her, leading a majority of the fanbase to view her as a boy.

(Of course, it's Dark Souls, so the game isn't going to actually tell you the story.)

Edit: In my opinion, Gwyndolin is the single most important character to the story of Dark Souls, more so even than the Chosen Undead.

[The Giant]

You will drive yourself mad if you take a zero defects approach, even though I appreciate your noble sentiments.

Everytime this comes up, someone always rushes to deploy the slippery slope: that caring about this one thing might lead to caring about everything, and then where would we be?

It's a fallacy for a reason. In the fifteen years I've been drawing OOTS, transgender-ism is the sole topic that has seen multiple people telling me my work caused them personal pain on separate occasions over separate jokes. There is plenty of empirical evidence that I have a particular blind spot on this topic, and that said blind spot is particularly harmful.

Literally no one has ever told me that my handling of Bandana's sexuality or Vaarsuvius' gender or Roy's race or Haley's penchant for unfortunate language or any of a hundred things swirling around Miko has hurt them on a personal level. They'll complain about it, they'll stomp their feet and write huge multi-quote debate threads, they'll tell me in their best concern troll voice that they're worried that other people might be upset, but they won't tell me they, themselves, were injured. There's a qualitative difference when it comes to how people respond to this one issue, and thus I am choosing to treat it uniquely. Until I see evidence that another topic has the same effect, there is no reason to think that this course of action will be extended to additional subject matter.

What some people are basically arguing is that I should be willing to roll the dice on a given topic and risk hurting people to tell a joke. What I am saying is, I already have done so and they came up snake eyes three times in a row. I'm not rolling these particular dice anymore. I'll continue to roll other dice until I have evidence that they, too, are dice with which no one wins.

There's just no way to please *everyone*.

I know that. And right now, I'm choosing to not please the people who say I shouldn't worry about this stuff.

[Gwynfrid]

It's a sex worker that has boobs that 'shouldn't have boobs', and that's gross.

I am aware of the dragonborn art kerfluffle, and I know Rich jokes about stuff like that, but that's not how I read it at all.

Maybe you're right? I don't think so, but I am curious how other Playgrounders read the scene.

This would never have occurred to me if I hadn't read this particular thread. But then, I probably lack the life experience and cultural background to be sensitive to this range of topics. In a very similar way, it never occurred to me that anyone would find the infamous belt of sex change arc offensive, until I read about it on the forum.

So. One always has things to learn. Thanks for giving me this opportunity to do so. Also, thanks to Rich for this thoughtful and honest reaction. That's the best outcome one could hope for this thread, which otherwise would be nothing but sad.

[5a Violista]

Just because you were not aware of a phrase's secondary baggage, and apparently cannot be shown that baggage, does not mean the phrase doesn't have secondary baggage. The lizardfolk herself isn't what brings the joke towards transphobic territory, it's the words, "Best of both worlds" that do it. Those words typed in that order have that baggage already attached for many people, such as Larrx, who has explained her own personal experience, and myself for that matter.

So could there have been a way to word that joke that would have made it harmless?

If we removed the lizardfolk's "Best of both worlds" comment and replaced it with something explicitly referencing dragonborn (rather than implicitly), it sounds like it could have been better.

...I'm having a tough time coming up with a good way to reword that sentence and still keep it both a reference to "artists like giving breasts to species that logically shouldn't have them" and keeping it succinct, while also not having potentially-harmful vibes.

How about "I heard humans like sexy lizards." <No, feels too much like "explaining the joke" and making the joke fall flat
"The artist decided he wants to give lizards breasts now" <This 4th wall break sounds stilted and out-of-place
"If you've ever wanted to be with a dragonborn, I'm the next best thing" <To somebody who doesn't know D&D 4th ed, this joke makes no sense and also has an out-of-place 4th wall break
"I saw in the new Monster's Manual (or whatever book it is) that new and popular lizardfolk should look like this." <a bit verbose and slightly unfunny
"If you want something fresh and current..." <and we're back to 'too implicit'

[Aveline]

So could there have been a way to word that joke that would have made it harmless?

Maybe. But probably not.

Edit: As was discussed earlier, the words themselves are the icing that proves the cake. The whole "inappropriate combination of sexual features" concept is the root of the joke, which is itself mildly insensitive. Wording it differently is just sidestepping.

Edit 2: That being said, I had no personal hard feeling towards the Giant in the first place over this particular joke, but I do understand why others felt it more personally, and it sucks when people say you just shouldn't feel hurt over something like that, so I very much appreciate Rich's stance going forward.

[Ruck]

What some people are basically arguing is that I should be willing to roll the dice on a given topic and risk hurting people to tell a joke. What I am saying is, I already have done so and they came up snake eyes three times in a row. I'm not rolling these particular dice anymore. I'll continue to roll other dice until I have evidence that they, too, are dice with which no one wins.

Perhaps the surest sign that the comic has gotten away from its roots in "jokes about D&D rules" is that you went with the classic pair of dice here and didn't say you rolled a 1.

[The Giant]

Perhaps the surest sign that the comic has gotten away from its roots in "jokes about D&D rules" is that you went with the classic pair of dice here and didn't say you rolled a 1.

You know, as soon as I posted, I thought, "I should change that to a natural 1," but I thought I was being too precious.

[Resileaf]

You know, as soon as I posted, I thought, "I should change that to a natural 1," but I thought I was being too precious.

You can't even win with gaming jokes.
What has the world gone to?!

[Ruck]

You know, as soon as I posted, I thought, "I should change that to a natural 1," but I thought I was being too precious.

As a one-time professional gambler, I'll just treat it as a shout-out to all of us who've made a living under those bright casino lights.

[Liquor Box]

What I find ironic is how it seems to be mostly cis people expressing a "strong desire" for the comic to recognize trans people, with mostly trans people saying "no, really, that's fine..."

Is this true? I don't always know who on this forum is trans and who is not, but I must admit that I assumed most trans people were on the side of more trans representation in comic, rather than the "it's fine" side.

[Rrmcklin]

Just to put some fun positivity in the thread, Sabine reads like a great genderfluid character to me. She presents female most of the time, but she presents male too, and not just for disguise.

Her boyfriend is embarrassed to discuss his sex life in public (and aren't we all), but he clearly has no problem with it in the bedroom.

She's unabashed, and unself-concious, and awesome.

Of course, she's a succubus in universe so maybe no one else sees her as fluid, and that's fair, but she's proud and accepted. Imho there have been some successes.

Also, please don't suggest that I see trans stuff everywhere because of my broken mutant imagination. I really don't.

Sabine is a boy sometimes and a girl other times, the interpretation, while likely rare, is reasonable.

I mean, she's also a living incarnation of evil.

I'm not sure how the best way to say this without coming off rude or condescending is (or if there's even a way to do that), but if you're going to be looking at some of her traits and say they're representation, I don't think you can actually exclude the rest of who she is.

And the whole "pure evil" thing seems like a pretty big negative to overlook in this interpretation.

[Larrx]

I mean, she's also a living incarnation of evil.

I'm not sure how the best way to say this without coming off rude or condescending is (or if there's even a way to do that), but if you're going to be looking at some of her traits and say they're representation, I don't think you can actually exclude the rest of who she is.

And the whole "pure evil" thing seems like a pretty big negative to overlook in this interpretation.

It's about the whys. Sabine is certainly evil, and should be opposed by the heroes on such grounds. But she is fought to stop her from doing evil things. No one opposes her because she's a boy sometimes, they oppose her because of the evil she does . . . that's Okay . . . desirable even.

Trans people can be bad guys. If the protagonists dislike them only because they're trans, or if their status is writer shorthand to signal to the audience that they're evil despite that not being present in the work, then that's a problem.

That's not the case with Sabine though. Her actions are evil, but her gender is ancillary at best.

She's great.

[Rrmcklin]

It's about the whys. Sabine is certainly evil, and should be opposed by the heroes on such grounds. But she is fought to stop her from doing evil things. No one opposes her because she's a boy sometimes, they oppose her because of the evil she does . . . that's Okay . . . desirable even.

Trans people can be bad guys. If the protagonists dislike them only because they're trans, or if their status is writer shorthand to signal to the audience that they're evil despite that not being present in the work, then that's a problem.

That's not the case with Sabine though. Her actions are evil, but her gender is ancillary at best.

She's great.

Huh, well that's true. I do think you exaggerated a bit how fluid she actually is though. The one mention of her and Nale "experimenting" doesn't imply it's something they do super often or that he's totally comfortable with. And I don't actually remember her ever being a guy just because. But that might just be my memory.

Anyway, on though the whole reptile thing seems to be passed I still want to give my opinion on it which is... mixed. Like, just looking at the first panel, I definitely get where the accusation of intentional trans-prostitute joke comes from. I think the next panel clarifies what the joke is actually supposed to be, but the implication from the first panel is still there.

So, yeah, harmful jokes don't stop being harmful just because the harm wasn't intentional, but I do think the distinction between intentional and unintentionally harmful is important, because the latter is probably more likely to be corrected if pointed out.

While I was reading the discussion I kept feeling weird how it seemed to be either "trans-prostitute is the obvious and only reading of the joke" or "there was no trans-prostitute element at all", and I felt like both where extremes. It seemed to me the joke was clearly about the reptiles not having breasts bit, but Rich unintentionally used transphobic set up.

[Zenzis]

Sabine doesn't really come across as genderfluid at all to me. Maybe I am forgetting something, but she just feels like a shape-changer that sometimes disguises in a male form. There is that one off joking comment with Nale, but doing some obvious experimenting in the bedroom when you are a shape-shifter doesn't really say much about your identity. Like I said though I could easily be forgetting a reference somewhere.

[Larrx]

Sabine doesn't really come across as genderfluid at all to me. Maybe I am forgetting something, but she just feels like a shape-changer that sometimes disguises in a male form. There is that one off joking comment with Nale, but doing some obvious experimenting in the bedroom when you are a shape-shifter doesn't really say much about your identity. Like I said though I could easily be forgetting a reference somewhere.

I don't think you are forgetting a reference, you knew the scene I meant, and I think your read is as valid as (and almost certainly more representative of the fanbase then) mine.

But just for fun (I swear really!), imagine you don't see yourself in media very often. Sabine has, on panel, been a guy thrice iirc. Dwarves blacksmith, prison guard in first town whose name I can't remember (which throws doubt on the whole icrc thing), and anachronistic cop in Cliffport.

It's a real world thing for people to do stuff like that easier with an intimate partner, or around strangers. I will be the first to admit that that's likely not what's going on, but it FITS!

It's really fun headcanon is all, honestly, but it still feels nice.

[Linneris]

Really?

What I find ironic is how it seems to be mostly cis people expressing a "strong desire" for the comic to recognize trans people, with mostly trans people saying "no, really, that's fine..."

I'm trans, I'm fine with the comic having no confirmed trans characters, I never thought of a transphobic interpretation for the lizardfolk joke and I still consider it far-fetched, and I only speak for myself here and, for all I know, it's not a representative opinion at all. :)

As for Sabine, honestly, just because she's a shapeshifter doesn't mean her gender identity doesn't fall into the conventional binary. I see it no different than a roleplayer playing characters of different genders. Also, Mr. Real Blacksmith and presumably the CPPD officer and Dave the guard were existing people she impersonated, not personas she invented for herself.

[RatElemental]

I'm trans, I'm fine with the comic having no confirmed trans characters, I never thought of a transphobic interpretation for the lizardfolk joke and I still consider it far-fetched, and I only speak for myself here and, for all I know, it's not a representative opinion at all. :)

As for Sabine, honestly, just because she's a shapeshifter doesn't mean her gender identity doesn't fall into the conventional binary. I see it no different than a roleplayer playing characters of different genders. Also, Mr. Real Blacksmith and presumably the CPPD officer and Dave the guard were existing people she impersonated, not personas she invented for herself.

I almost thought that was a post I'd made there.

(Not really, just chiming in to say you're not alone.)

[Zenzis]

I don't think you are forgetting a reference, you knew the scene I meant, and I think your read is as valid as (and almost certainly more representative of the fanbase then) mine.

But just for fun (I swear really!), imagine you don't see yourself in media very often. Sabine has, on panel, been a guy thrice iirc. Dwarves blacksmith, prison guard in first town whose name I can't remember (which throws doubt on the whole icrc thing), and anachronistic cop in Cliffport.

It's a real world thing for people to do stuff like that easier with an intimate partner, or around strangers. I will be the first to admit that that's likely not what's going on, but it FITS!

It's really fun headcanon is all, honestly, but it still feels nice.

I don't see myself in media very often, and I get what you are saying. Absolutely headcannon whatever you want, I was just giving my thoughts on the interpretation. I do appreciate trying to add positivity to the thread though. :)

I'm trans, I'm fine with the comic having no confirmed trans characters, I never thought of a transphobic interpretation for the lizardfolk joke and I still consider it far-fetched, and I only speak for myself here and, for all I know, it's not a representative opinion at all. :)

I get the lizardfolk thing. I think part of the point that The Giant was making so eloquently was that it hurt people. It isn't necessarily about it being any particular label; people were hurt by it. People have been similarly hurt by jokes on the same topic. That is what is so "healthy" or "wholesome" or "positive" about what he said that you don't see a lot. He recognized that he was doing something that was hurting people and instead of debating about whether it was right or wrong for them to be hurt by it, he acknowledged they were hurt, acknowledged that he might not even be capable of understanding the sources of the hurt, and said he would make a serious effort not to do it again.

[Hardcore]

I don't see myself in media very often, and I get what you are saying. Absolutely headcannon whatever you want, I was just giving my thoughts on the interpretation. I do appreciate trying to add positivity to the thread though. :)



I get the lizardfolk thing. I think part of the point that The Giant was making so eloquently was that it hurt people. It isn't necessarily about it being any particular label; people were hurt by it. People have been similarly hurt by jokes on the same topic. That is what is so "healthy" or "wholesome" or "positive" about what he said that you don't see a lot. He recognized that he was doing something that was hurting people and instead of debating about whether it was right or wrong for them to be hurt by it, he acknowledged they were hurt, acknowledged that he might not even be capable of understanding the sources of the hurt, and said he would make a serious effort not to do it again.

To be correct he did not do anything to feel ashamed of.
Also the Giant is not responsible for peoples reaction to his work.
All he can do is saying; "I do my best, and if you don't like it then only you can do something about that by changing your mind set".

[Adghar]

...I think part of the point that The Giant was making so eloquently was that it hurt people. It isn't necessarily about it being any particular label; people were hurt by it. People have been similarly hurt by jokes on the same topic. That is what is so "healthy" or "wholesome" or "positive" about what he said that you don't see a lot. He recognized that he was doing something that was hurting people and instead of debating about whether it was right or wrong for them to be hurt by it, he acknowledged they were hurt, acknowledged that he might not even be capable of understanding the sources of the hurt, and said he would make a serious effort not to do it again.

I was honestly surprised. I think I've been hanging around Facebook and video gaming forums for too long. Because in those places, the default by an overwhelming majority is to dig your heels into your position and say "Well I'm not offended by that, so you're just being overly sensitive!" I've found it incredibly rare, in the past ~3 years, to see people acknowledging others' viewpoints because their personal backgrounds are different and they thus can't speak for how others' experiences have shaped others.

Modern people seem utterly incapable of saying, "I'm not you, so even though x never happens to me, I understand that x can be a problem for you."

Probably one of the reasons I keep revisiting this thread to see a veritable bastion of civility compared to what I'm used to. Look at that, peaceful discourse! A rare and precious thing, that.

[137beth]

I tried writing a response to some of this discussion, but it made me angry so I stopped.

However, there is one thing I will respond to:

I'd like to say thanks to the Giant for his succinct and well-received post. I know he doesn't come to the forums much anymore, but I'm glad he did before it started getting ugly again.
I'm not sure if this is a topic I should post on a different subforum, but are there examples of good trans representation in fantasy people could recommend? The only ones I know of are 'Wicked and the Divine' and 'Alesha, who Smiles at Death' from m:tg (which I thought was a lot more tastefully handled than it could've been).

Well, since we're on a webcomic forum, I'll list the fantasy webcomics that I've read which have trans characters:

Sister Claire is my current favorite webcomic, and it has multiple trans and nonbinary characters. The format is somewhat different from other webcomics, in that it alternates between comics and prose short-story prequels. The prequels (called "Missing Moments") let the authors explore some ideas that aren't as easily told in comic form. There are also plenty of characters of various sexual orientations, and the word-of-author is that there are no straight people in the Claireverse.

Namesake: has both enby and binary trans characters, although neither is explored in depth.

Widdershins recently introduced a trans character.

No End has several trans characters.

Sleepless Domain has a trans girl, who we meet long before finding out she is trans.

The Property of Hate has trans characters.

[Fyraltari]

I'd like to say thanks to the Giant for his succinct and well-received post. I know he doesn't come to the forums much anymore, but I'm glad he did before it started getting ugly again.
I'm not sure if this is a topic I should post on a different subforum, but are there examples of good trans representation in fantasy people could recommend? The only ones I know of are 'Wicked and the Divine' and 'Alesha, who Smiles at Death' from m:tg (which I thought was a lot more tastefully handled than it could've been).

I don't really know if this counts as representation, but the Watch sub-serie of the Discworld novels (EDIT starting with Feet of Clay) have an arc about the Dwarves that is allegorical for Feminism and integration of LGBT people.
To develop: the settings gives the old "there are no female dwarves" thing its own explanation: all dwarves are culturally expected to behave "dwarf-like" that is drink a lot, swear , pick fights, etc. regardless of biological sex that is obscured by so much clothing even other dwarves can't know. However when coming into contact with human civilisation a good number of dwarves decide they like wearing make-up, dresses and not drinking themselves silly at 3 in the morning. This drives the more... traditionnal elements of dwarvish society nuts.

I bring this up, because this arc is what made me really think about what it is like for transgender people for the first time.

[Larrx]

So could there have been a way to word that joke that would have made it harmless?

Assuming you're being honest, than yes. The two problems are the sex work, and Roy's reaction. You can deal with that super easy. They are store keeps now, one has gotten breast implants. Roy rolls his eyes, maybe he says, "That's ridiculus."

And done.

It's not hard. Same one panel jab at the 4e illustrators is maintained, and no trans people are sad.

If you come at it honestly, find the sticking points, and comprimise, you can make a better piece of art.

[5a Violista]

Okay, thanks for the answer.

Having them merchants and changing Roy's reaction seems like it would work, you're right.