Why aren't 95% of dwarven souls going to Hel anyway?

[Calavera]

It seems that dwarven lands are a mostly stable affair, with no war, and so other than those fools who go out adventuring and those on the outskirts to keep raiding parties at bay, (and lets say 5% who drink themselves to death), there would be little to no opportunity to die in battle/doing something couragous for the average dwarf. Obviously the answer is "it's Rich's comic and anyhing he says goes", but I'm wondering if there's an in-universe explanation?

[hamishspence]

Durkon's explanation was that most sick dwarves pick fights with trees:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html

[AlignmentDebate]

"...Most sick dwarves will just pick a fight wit a conifer and die in battle."

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Which suggests a potential campaign strategy for the high priests of the other gods, sould the gods want to end the world somewhere soon. Too bad about the whole real life "it can be the answer" implication.

[ArkenBrony]

the problem is, the meeting stated they would destroy the world immediately after it ended

[falsedot]

It seems that dwarven lands are a mostly stable affair, with no war, and so other than those fools who go out adventuring and those on the outskirts to keep raiding parties at bay, (and lets say 5% who drink themselves to death), there would be little to no opportunity to die in battle/doing something couragous for the average dwarf. Obviously the answer is "it's Rich's comic and anyhing he says goes", but I'm wondering if there's an in-universe explanation?

Because it is not true that: the dwarven lands are a mostly stable affair, with no war, and so other than those fools who go out adventuring and those on the outskirts to keep raiding parties at bay and only 5% drinks to death.

What's with the threads that make random assumptions and ask how they fit OOTS?

Wikipedia states that 15-20% of heavy drinkers develop liver problems and streatosis develops in all regular drinkers. Depending on the definition there is lot of wiggle room for thor. Plus the plant fights. Plus all the monsters.

Can we now focus on the real plothole: how can redcloak's niece return if, according to my calculations based on tuna consumption of Norwegian cats, the survival rate of goblins is 2.35%?

[Rift_Wolf]

Can we now focus on the real plothole: how can redcloak's niece return if, according to my calculations based on tuna consumption of Norwegian cats, the survival rate of goblins is 2.35%?

Well that's easy. You're basing that off modern Norwegian cats. Looking at medieval Norwegian cats, they would've eaten herring or that pickled shark stuff or, most importantly, puffins. If you run the numbers using puffin consumption, redcloaks niece reappears, clear as day.

[Keltest]

It seems that dwarven lands are a mostly stable affair, with no war, and so other than those fools who go out adventuring and those on the outskirts to keep raiding parties at bay, (and lets say 5% who drink themselves to death), there would be little to no opportunity to die in battle/doing something couragous for the average dwarf. Obviously the answer is "it's Rich's comic and anyhing he says goes", but I'm wondering if there's an in-universe explanation?

I would assume an honorable death includes more than just getting killed via a sword-induced gap where your internal organs need to be.

[The Giant]

Given that our only glimpse of dwarven society is the life of one disabled veteran and her young son, I think it's a bit of an leap to assume that there are no wars. Or at least, no violent conflicts: Sigdi's husband and a lot of innocent miners died in a troll attack, after all, with no war required. Monsters are everywhere, especially in underground tunnels.

While the line about picking a fight with a tree was intended for comedy, the point still remains that if you know for certain you will only get a good afterlife if you die with honor, you are far more likely to deliberately go seek out an enemy to fight—whether it's orcs, giants, drow, duergar, etc.—as soon as you know you're sick or getting old. I imagine honor duels are probably a very common way of settling the score between two feuding dwarves: If I win, then I win, but if I lose, I still get an honorable death. And again, if you're sick, why not provoke a duel you know you will lose?

Also, there are certainly ways to die with honor that don't involve combat. If there's a cave-in and you take the time to save another dwarf but can't get out yourself before it collapses, that's an honorable death even though you were killed by a falling rock.

Basically, this all comes down to the fact that the dwarves know, for a fact, that this is how the world works for them. There's no reason to assume that they don't have methods for dealing with it.

[Synesthesy]

Durkon said that dwarf who die for alchool desease die with honor (of their brave livers).

So, I just image that old dwarves drink until they die. Wouldn't it be a good death?

[JBiddles]

If Roy fails, could the Good priests get off a Sending in time to get a message to as many dwarves as possible to drink themselves to death/pick a fight with the Tarrasque ASAP? If so, whom should they contact to get to as many dwarves as possible?

[SoC175]

Basically, this all comes down to the fact that the dwarves know, for a fact, that this is how the world works for them. There's no reason to assume that they don't have methods for dealing with it.

So you presented a situation where suicide is the only good solution?

[The Giant]

So you presented a situation where suicide is the only good solution?

First, I don't find that amusing. Everyone loves to throw things I said back in my face, but that was a discussion of something that would have actually appeared in the comic, and we're talking about the underlying logic and extrapolations that will never appear on the page. Someone wanted an explanation and I gave it to them. I did not present that issue in the comic strip, nor did I solve the main conflict of a scene with it. And trying to "get" me with a statement I made regarding my unwillingness to risk promoting suicide in the real world is in very bad taste.

Second, no, because the proper solution is actually, "Live a life of honor and service to your fellow dwarf so that whenever you happen to die, you'll be in the middle of acting honorably." Yes, a dwarf can live their life like a selfish coward and hope to wiggle out in the end, but most dwarves don't do that. In fact, many dwarves probably live their lives as they wish and let the chips fall where they may with regard to their death, trusting their gods will give them the opportunity to act honorably when the moment is upon them. Many dwarves probably resign themselves to their fate in Hel anyway, because they would view "gaming the system" as cheating.

Dwarves live for hundreds of years. During that lifespan, there will be at least some moments where they have the choice to either act boldly and (possibly) die with honor, or act cautiously and live. Their knowledge of their afterlife will therefore encourage the majority of dwarves to pick the former, and if they find themselves having picked the latter too many times an end up old and dying, well, then there are causes they can pledge themselves to for that last hurrah. That doesn't mean they walk into an orc camp unarmed and get cut down, it means they keep fighting orcs past the point when they should retreat.

Basically, everyone's talking about the few dwarves who don't act like dwarves their entire life and somehow manage to get to be old and infirm. They're outliers at best.

[Onyavar]

So you presented a situation where suicide is the only good solution?

Well, I guess it's possible (to some extent) to discuss heroic suicide on the forums.

The point is that suicide-to-get-a-good-afterlife shouldn't be explicitly shown in the comic.

Which is why JBiddles "option" most probably won't be a point, either.

Edit: Oops, Ninja'd by stern serious giant o.O

[SoC175]

And trying to "get" me with a statement I made regarding my unwillingness to risk promoting suicide in the real world is in very bad taste.

Sorry.

Basically, everyone's talking about the few dwarves who don't act like dwarves their entire life and somehow manage to get to be old and infirm. They're outliers at best.

A race/culture where those that get to be old and infirm are the outliers at best is a very sad one.

This whole "act like dwarves" is strange. Dwarf society consist of civilians just like any other. The percentage of soldiers might be higher, but there are still plenty that spend their lives as artists, smiths, farmers, brewers, cooks, whatever and never pick up a weapon in real life or dead combat. At least in the standard D&D settings, the fighting is done by the soldiers, guards and crazy adventurers not by the majority of even dwarven population.

If you say your OOtS dwarves are different, that just IMHO brings them around to the point of being a very sad culture/race. Picking up fights with orcs until you get slain is just a variant of "suicide by cops", as is working in unsafe working environments in hope of getting that fatal accident.

Unless the very dwarven halls themselves get stormed by orcs and the last child has to pick up an axe, getting to die peacefully in your bed surrounded by your kids and grandchildren is a very achievable goal for a normal dwarf civilian, while the wars are fought by the soldiers without having to draft every civilian.

Oviously not in OotS where you should better join the geriatric battalion or the mechanized wheelchair brigade to pick a fight with the nearest orc clan even if there's currently no war happening (the dwarves must the aggressors in OotS most of the time). Even in the FR there are decades or even centuries of peace between orcs and dwarves between major wars

[Keltest]

First, I don't find that amusing. Everyone loves to throw things I said back in my face, but that was a discussion of something that would have actually appeared in the comic, and we're talking about the underlying logic and extrapolations that will never appear on the page. Someone wanted an explanation and I gave it to them. I did not present that issue in the comic strip, nor did I solve the main conflict of a scene with it. And trying to "get" me with a statement I made regarding my unwillingness to risk promoting suicide in the real world is in very bad taste.

Second, no, because the proper solution is actually, "Live a life of honor and service to your fellow dwarf so that whenever you happen to die, you'll be in the middle of acting honorably." Yes, a dwarf can live their life like a selfish coward and hope to wiggle out in the end, but most dwarves don't do that. In fact, many dwarves probably live their lives as they wish and let the chips fall where they may with regard to their death, trusting their gods will give them the opportunity to act honorably when the moment is upon them. Many dwarves probably resign themselves to their fate in Hel anyway, because they would view "gaming the system" as cheating.

Dwarves live for hundreds of years. During that lifespan, there will be at least some moments where they have the choice to either act boldly and (possibly) die with honor, or act cautiously and live. Their knowledge of their afterlife will therefore encourage the majority of dwarves to pick the former, and if they find themselves having picked the latter too many times an end up old and dying, well, then there are causes they can pledge themselves to for that last hurrah. That doesn't mean they walk into an orc camp unarmed and get cut down, it means they keep fighting orcs past the point when they should retreat.

Basically, everyone's talking about the few dwarves who don't act like dwarves their entire life and somehow manage to get to be old and infirm. They're outliers at best.

A while ago, you brought up that the Honor system only counts for those who believe in it. Would that mean that Hilgya, who thinks dwarven honor is bunk, would go to her Chaotic Evil afterlife instead of Hel? Or any other dwarf who decided not to "act like a dwarf" for their whole life?

[SavageWombat]

Essentially, the humor comes from the dwarves' ability to argue after-the-fact that their death was, despite all appearances, honorable.

"My grandfather died defending the honor and legendary virility of Clan Oakenshield against the three lizardfolk prostitutes."

[Bulldog Psion]

(and lets say 5% who drink themselves to death)

I think this statistic is the source of the misunderstanding. Either that, or there's a "don't" missing between "who" and "drink."

[Keltest]

Sorry.

A race/culture where those that get to be old and infirm are the outliers at best is a very sad one.

This whole "act like dwarves" is strange. Dwarf society consist of civilians just like any other. The percentage of soldiers might be higher, but there are still plenty that spend their lives as artists, smiths, farmers, brewers, cooks, whatever and never pick up a weapon in real life or dead combat. At least in the standard D&D settings, the fighting is done by the soldiers, guards and crazy adventurers not by the majority of even dwarven population.

If you say your OOtS dwarves are different, that just IMHO brings them around to the point of being a very sad culture/race. Picking up fights with orcs until you get slain is just a variant of "suicide by cops", as is working in unsafe working environments in hope of getting that fatal accident.

Unless the very dwarven halls themselves get stormed by orcs and the last child has to pick up an axe, getting to die peacefully in your bed surrounded by your kids and grandchildren is a very achievable goal for a normal dwarf civilian, while the wars are fought by the soldiers without having to draft every civilian.

Oviously not in OotS where you should better join the geriatric battalion or the mechanized wheelchair brigade to pick a fight with the nearest orc clan even if there's currently no war happening (the dwarves must the aggressors in OotS most of the time). Even in the FR there are decades or even centuries of peace between orcs and dwarves between major wars

Also, there are certainly ways to die with honor that don't involve combat. If there's a cave-in and you take the time to save another dwarf but can't get out yourself before it collapses, that's an honorable death even though you were killed by a falling rock.

I feel that this applies. I see nothing dishonorable about living to a ripe old age after having successfully, say, spending your life ferrying vital supplies to your dwarven mountain kingdom for the good of the clan until youre too old to navigate the pass anymore, then retiring and helping to make sure your grandkids grow up to be proper dwarves.

[Sylian]

Would getting assassinated count as dying with honor? Durkon said "dinnae fall in battle" and "die with honor". I see two obvious interpretations to this.

#1: Dying in battle is the only way to die with honor.
#2: There are several ways of dying with honor, with dying in battle being the most common.

Considering The Giant's post, #2 seems to be the case. Perhaps it would depend on why you were assassinated? A freedom fighter getting assassinated by a tyrant might count as dying with honor, a thief getting assassinated for betraying the Thieves Guild might not.

[factotum]

Yeah, I'd say we haven't seen enough of dwarven society to know what does and does not count as an honourable death. Plus, the other gods seem to jump through hoops to find excuses to avoid souls going to Hel--possibly that's one of the reasons she's so teed off!

[ZZTRaider]

Essentially, the humor comes from the dwarves' ability to argue after-the-fact that their death was, despite all appearances, honorable.

"My grandfather died defending the honor and legendary virility of Clan Oakenshield against the three lizardfolk prostitutes."

I really can't see any OotS Dwarves having the clan name of "Oakenshield". That'd be like if Redcloak's last name was Sapphire-Guard.

[The Giant]

Sorry.

A race/culture where those that get to be old and infirm are the outliers at best is a very sad one.

This whole "act like dwarves" is strange. Dwarf society consist of civilians just like any other. The percentage of soldiers might be higher, but there are still plenty that spend their lives as artists, smiths, farmers, brewers, cooks, whatever and never pick up a weapon in real life or dead combat. At least in the standard D&D settings, the fighting is done by the soldiers, guards and crazy adventurers not by the majority of even dwarven population.

If you say your OOtS dwarves are different, that just IMHO brings them around to the point of being a very sad culture/race. Picking up fights with orcs until you get slain is just a variant of "suicide by cops", as is working in unsafe working environments in hope of getting that fatal accident.

Unless the very dwarven halls themselves get stormed by orcs and the last child has to pick up an axe, getting to die peacefully in your bed surrounded by your kids and grandchildren is a very achievable goal for a normal dwarf civilian, while the wars are fought by the soldiers without having to draft every civilian.

The dwarves would view "getting to die peacefully in your bed surrounded by your kids and grandchildren" as a terrible fate to be avoided at all costs. What dwarf in his right mind could look his progeny in the face at that moment, knowing that their disgraceful life of meek cowardice was in full evidence to all? What dwarf wouldn't hide their shame that their parent or grandparent had met such an ignoble end? That sort of mewling death whimper may be good enough for the humans, with their bizarre fixation on individual achievement over the collective good of the species, but no decent dwarf would trade a glorious death for a few more decades of weak-willed life. No, sir. Dwarven life is long enough already, and putting your own life above the needs of the community is just self-serving greed.

Look at Sigdi in the first strip she appears in. She is not in combat; she is retired. But when an accident happens in front of her, she springs into action—even though she is less equipped to help than any other adult present. If that dwarven laborer had dragged her off the mountain, she would have died with honor, but she did not help that man because doing so would have allowed her to die with honor. She helped him because it was the right thing to do. That's the dwarven way: Do the right thing regardless of the danger, knowing that if the danger overwhelms you, you'll be rewarded in the next life.

Therefore, a dwarf who lives to be 300 is probably one that has turned away from every accident or dangerous situation they have been presented with in their long, long life, and is to be pitied and shunned for dying peacefully at home. It may be an achievable goal for them, but it is not a desirable one.

Or, to put it another way: They wouldn't care that you thought it was sad.

Would getting assassinated count as dying with honor? Durkon said "dinnae fall in battle" and "die with honor". I see two obvious interpretations to this.

#1: Dying in battle is the only way to die with honor.
#2: There are several ways of dying with honor, with dying in battle being the most common.

Considering The Giant's post, #2 seems to be the case. Perhaps it would depend on why you were assassinated? A freedom fighter getting assassinated by a tyrant might count as dying with honor, a thief getting assassinated for betraying the Thieves Guild might not.

Yes, #2. And yes, I could see a dwarven politician who is assassinated for his or her strongly held political belief counting as "dying with honor." They fought in the arena for which they were most suited, and died while defending their position. Sounds like an honorable death to me.

[ironkid]

How interesting. So it makes sense that all dwarves get weapons proficiency at some point, IIRC in 3.X they get some martial weapons proficiencies regardless of class, and this might be why. It's part of elementary school ed.

Makes you wonder about impoverished dwarves and kids dying of disease, but those are horrible topics and pushing it too far for a fantasy comic. Still, dwarves are consistently portrayed as very hardy, those things ought to be rare, and clerics can cure disease at 5th level, and I don't think they'd charge for such services to minimum wage dwarves.

I can imagine even the most impoverished families affording an honorable death, leaving to hunt to provide to provide for the rest of the family. Dying in those situations, even if it doesn't involve combat, might count.

[Porthos]

In other words, Dwarves in OotSWorld are more like Well Adjusted Klingons (that tend toward being good aligned).

Hardly a revolutionary concept if you ask me.

[hroþila]

Well, I doubt it's meant to be revolutionary, even though some people in this thread seem to have assumed it would be like some sort of super alien thing. It's simply an archaic culture from our point of view, but one that has plenty of real-world parallels.

It's a traditional culture that is militaristic to a larger extent than our own and that holds honour in very high regard. That doesn't mean everybody actually attains or seeks out the perfect death; it just means the ideal exists and the vast majority of people would like to live up to it.

[Sylian]

Makes you wonder about impoverished dwarves and kids dying of disease, but those are horrible topics and pushing it too far for a fantasy comic.

Based on previous comments by The Giant, I'd imagine children would get a free pass to a decent afterlife even if they died of disease.

Yes, #2. And yes, I could see a dwarven politician who is assassinated for his or her strongly held political belief counting as "dying with honor." They fought in the arena for which they were most suited, and died while defending their position. Sounds like an honorable death to me.

That would make it a lot more reasonable then. A laborer dying in a work related accident would probably count as well, since they were doing their duty. It also makes a lot of sense for dwarves to be Lawful, since Lawful dwarves should be statistically more likely to die with honor.

I suspect there might still be some rather unfortunate cases. An unexpected stroke while having dinner, for instance.

[Porthos]

it just means the ideal exists and the vast majority of people would like to live up to it.

And we've also seen that Thor is fairly good at arguing the edge cases where it is appropriate.

[SoC175]

And we've also seen that Thor is fairly good at arguing the edge cases where it is appropriate.

Sadly, so is Hel

Therefore, a dwarf who lives to be 300 is probably one that has turned away from every accident or dangerous situation they have been presented with in their long, long life,

But how many would present themselves to a cook or baker? Unless dwarves are especially careless and have terrible workplace security

[Porthos]

Sadly, so is Hel

Err, she lost that argument. I tend to think factotum is right when he noted that one of the reasons Hel is so peeved is that she constantly loses these arguments.

---

What I think happened in this "bet" that occured Whenever is that Hel looked at things and said, "Gosh, it's sooooooo easy to die dishonorably. Imma gonna make a killing here. I AGREE!!"

She failed to realized just how tied up the dwarven society was when it came to honor and how easy it would be for her to lose the edge cases.

Her fault for not thinking things through, apparently.