patreon.com or other support?

[j-beda]

So I finally got around to creating a patreon.com account (in order to throw some money at "Captain Disillusion" https://www.patreon.com/CaptainDisillusion to support his YouTube hoax-exposing videos) and thought I should also pledge a few bucks to OoTS and other webcomics that I regularly enjoy. I can't find anything for OoTS or "Giant in the Playground" on Patreon.com or anything referencing patreon on giantitp.com. Is there any patronage or donation system available? I don't need any rewards or kickbacks like the KickStarter campaign, I just want to send a few bucks to support the web comics that my family and I enjoy so much. Is there any efficient way to do that?

- jb

[Quild]

There's no patreon (yet?) for oots, indeed.

Rich is not fond of the idea: https://twitter.com/richburlew/statu...28674981654528

I wonder how patreon works when an author chose a "per page" donation with erratic update rate. Can you put a limit per month to what you're willing to give?

I believe Rich would feel somehow bad if there was few or no update during a month while people are paying him this month, or if there are "too many" updates and peoples are angered about having spent more than they intended this month...

Add to this that he's still dealing with the KS rewards which affects the updates.

I'd like to buy the pdf oots rewards and there could be something through patreon for this (which wouldn't prevent peoples from coming once to get the reward and then leave), but here again, Rich releasing PDF copies is something unique here, since he believes it would affect the sale of book copies in the future (I would totally buy the book version even if I have read everything in it, but not everyone is like that).

So for now, I believe that the only way to support Rich is to buy existing products.

[NerdyKris]

He's stated a lot of times on the boards as well that he doesn't want people to donate when there might be weeks or even a couple months between updates. People get pretty upset when they pay for something that isn't delivered. It also makes people feel like they have a say in the direction of the strip.

If you want to support him, buy merchandise, both from Ookookdook and CafePress. That's how he makes his money. Also Morland Miniatures, but he said elsewhere that he just gets a licensing fee from them, so books and other merchandise is more profitable.

[Douglas]

Here's a quote from him on the subject. It's a little old, but I don't think his stance has changed.

I don't know if he's considered the per update option for Patreon.

[j-beda]

If you want to support him, buy merchandise, both from Ookookdook and CafePress. That's how he makes his money. Also Morland Miniatures, but he said elsewhere that he just gets a licensing fee from them, so books and other merchandise is more profitable.

Spending $10 on merchandise (including taxes, shipping, etc) probably gets no more than $2 into Rich's hands, and gets us some admiditedly good stuff, but stuff we do not actually need or want at this time. Sure it supports UPS, and the printers and all the people making and handeling the stuff, but my goal is to reward Rich for making a great web-comic in a reasonably efficient manner, and not to fill our home with more things and use up physical resources and increase the enviornmental burden my life imposes on the planet. When I want to give someone a nice present, sure, I'll think about getting them a great book. Until then I don't want to have to buy something else.

In terms of not wanting to charge people if there are no web-comics, it looks like patreon has the ability to do a "per creation" which would only charge things when web-comics are posted, and the patron can set a monthly maximum so that if Rich releases 30,000 comics one month the patrons are not surprised with a huge bill.

https://patreon.zendesk.com/hc/en-us...tion-campaign-

While Rich's sentiment of "I'd rather people only give me money for concrete stuff rather than be indefinitely beholden to a patronage system" is laudable, I don' t really see how patreon makes anyone "indefinitely beholden". Certainly any patron can quit giving at any time.

I want to give Rich money for making a web comic. I am happy with Rich's current update policy and would be happy with a set monthly giving amount, but would also be fine with a set "per creation" amount. I don't even want any "rewards" beyond the web-comic which I am already getting. I highly value the web comic. I would like to express that value financially.

If Rich feels that this type of donation/patronage system would make him uncomfortable or would impose unresolved obligations that would negatively impact him, I can understand that. Physical merchandise transactions are admiditely much "cleaner" - A gives an object to B and B give money to A, with no further moral or emotional obligation. A and B both know what was given and gotten, and neither has much worry that the other has not gotten high enough value from the exchange. With a patronage or donation system, A can easily feel that they have not provided a fair return for the money given them by B. The arguement that B was happy with the exchange might not be enough to reassure A, especially if B is funding "future work" which A might worry is not going to be valued by B as much as B thinks it will be.

Maybe Rich could think of it in this way: Rich makes comic #1 through #993, and then sets up a Patreon.com "per creation" account and when Rich makes #994 I'll send him $1. Here is the important mental/moral/emotional thought: the money I am sending is not for #994, which might cause Rich distress to take money from me for something I don't even know about until after I have already paid, and might not be worth $1 to me. No, the money I am sending is for comic #1 - which I can honestly attest I think is of very high quality and well worth $1. When #995 is published, I would send him money for #2.

The key here is that I am in complete control over my actions, and Rich should not feel any angst that I am not getting proper value for my money. If I think #3 is not worth the money, I don't have to pay for that one - I can skip it and pay for #4 when Rich releases #995. Or I could pay for #1 AGAIN just because I think it is so awesome, or because I think I should pay for it as a gift to my uncle who looks like Belkar. Or I could decide that this payment is for #994 which I have had time to evaluate by now. If or when I finally pay for all of the already published web comics to the level that I feel they are worth - I will stop paying. Rich need never fear that I am unwittingly fund something beyond its value.

Of course I realize that Rich is free to set up or not set up any system he wants. It would give our family pleasure to be able to provide support to OotS as a web-comic, but we can live without that pleasure.

- jb

[j-beda]

Here's a quote from him on the subject. It's a little old, but I don't think his stance has changed.

I don't know if he's considered the per update option for Patreon.

That's a good reference. If we aren't able to get the money to him, maybe we will make a donation in his name and have them send the tax receipt to Rich...

[factotum]

Spending $10 on merchandise (including taxes, shipping, etc) probably gets no more than $2 into Rich's hands, and gets us some admiditedly good stuff, but stuff we do not actually need or want at this time.

In the case of Ookoodook I seriously doubt the amount that goes to the Giant is such a small proportion of the total. In addition, you have no desire at all to get the comic books that are entirely non-web material (e.g. On the Origin of PCs, Start of Darkness and Snips, Snails and Dragon Tails)? All three are pretty good, you know.

[Quild]

I wasn't sure of the monthly limit, glad they made the thing right :D
Being European though, I wonder if I'd have fees each time I want to pay 1$ through that. They're quite ridiculous in France and I often have almost 4 € fees for buying things outside of Europe. Regardless rate of exchange.

I do agree with you anyway. That decision of Rich surprises me, I don't really understand what's wrong with this system. Maybe he'll change his mind after being done with the Kickstarter. Maybe before, maybe never.

Anyway, I think that it's his decision to make.

[j-beda]

In the case of Ookoodook I seriously doubt the amount that goes to the Giant is such a small proportion of the total. In addition, you have no desire at all to get the comic books that are entirely non-web material (e.g. On the Origin of PCs, Start of Darkness and Snips, Snails and Dragon Tails)? All three are pretty good, you know.

As I said, I don't want a book.

Be that as it may, a quick check says that in order to order a book for $21.95 USD I would be also paying $14.20 USD in shipping, and 13% tax when delivered plus $10 CAD ($7.72 USD) brokerage fee, for a total of $46.73 USD. Thus, less than half of my money even gets to ookoodook.com, and from the money they get they need to pay off the credit card people (3%? 5%?), print the book, wrap it, etc.

$2 out of $10 is 20%, so out of my $46.73 needed to purchase a book, 20% is $9.35.

Of the $22 sales price how much do you think the Giant gets into his hands? I suppose it is possible that the profit per book is as high as $9.35, but it seems unlikely. I think saying that less than 20% of my money gets to the Giant when purchasing merchandise is not at all an unreasonable estimate.

- jb

[The Giant]

I do not have as much time to write on this topic as I usually would, but:

At this time, I have asked anyone who wants to financially support OOTS to buy products. While the exact percentages I earn on a book sale are nobody's business but my own, I promise you I have literally never sold a book where I earned as little as 20% of the cover price. Your assumptions are based on what authors usually earn, but you're forgetting that I am also the publisher. I earn a substantially greater percentage on the books than a creator who is published by an outside company.

Maybe at some future point, when all of my Kickstarter obligations are completed, I will consider Patreon. Maybe at some point I will put out digital products that won't take up space in your life. But maybe I won't. I appreciate any and all support fans are willing to give, but it's ultimately my decision what avenues of support I am comfortable accepting. As I've said before, life is about what priorities you set for yourself, and I've placed "less stress" above "earn more" for some time now. And I'm pretty comfortable with that.

The day may also come when that no longer works, when my financial needs are no longer being met by product sales. And I would rather, on that day, have the freedom to come to the fans and tell them what's going on—and be comfortable that they would know that I wouldn't be asking if it wasn't an emergency. That peace of mind is worth more to me than a donation now.

Everything else is covered in the post that Douglas linked, all of which still holds true.

Except add the The Trevor Project to the list.

[j-beda]

I do not have as much time to write on this topic as I usually would, but:

At this time, I have asked anyone who wants to financially support OOTS to buy products. While the exact percentages I earn on a book sale are nobody's business but my own, I promise you I have literally never sold a book where I earned as little as 20% of the cover price. Your assumptions are based on what authors usually earn, but you're forgetting that I am also the publisher. I earn a substantially greater percentage on the books than a creator who is published by an outside company.

Thanks so much for your thoughts. I have no doubt that you are making more than 20% of the cover price, but due to the nature of moving stuff around the planet, more than 50% of my money goes to taxes, fees, and shipping - which seems like quite a waste. Regarless of your profit margin, buying something I don't want in order to support something I do want to support just doesn't seem very efficient.

I do respect your desire to minimize external sources of stresses and feelings of obligations, and am glad that you are managing to pull in enough to justify your continued production of new material. Let me encourage you to continue to reflect on other ways that supporters can provide support. Patreon, directed donations to causes you like, the ability to add tips or "pay what you want" types of items in your shop and other possibilities are all probably worth revisiting every few years as your situation and the possible options may change.

I am probably not the only one with a desire to send money your way more directly, and my desire to do so is not based on any desire to direct your future work or to create obligations or stresses in your life, but rather to provide the financial means needed to continue the work currently being done. Just like the local animal shelter, the local orchestra, and the international aid agency, I think you do good and important work, and that the work does not easily fit into the purely commercial fee-for-service or fee-for-object economic models. Sometimes buying a calendar or a raffle ticket makes sense, but sometimes I want to more directly support the work these groups and individuals do.

Humm, so my last sentence seem to be slightly in contridiction to the idea that I have no "desire to direct your future work" - I suppose in some sense any "patron" does have some desire to infleuence the work that is done. We give to the animal shelter because we want then to continue to care for lost puppies, to the orchestra because we want them to continue to perform concerts, and to web comic artists because we want them to continue to make web comics. I can see how an artist might not like the feeling that they are being constrained by patrons who expect that they will do certain things. I can see how the more purely commercial transactions might impose less of these nebulous obligations.

I guess this is a bit more complicated than "hey, let me give you free money".

- jb

[LuisDantas]

Maybe I am reading too much on it, but I think the Giant is personally invested in having the wheels spinning, delivering actual physical product and thereby rewarding the many people involved in their printing and distribution.

And, you know, having a book (or boardgame) on your hands as opposed to your computer or mobile device is truly useful in spreading the word around.

The post that has just been revalidated is clear enough. If you somehow still prefer to find a way to send the Giant money without giving to charity or buying a physical product, I am sure you can split the price of a book order with someone.

And no, I am not above applying for the vacancy... :)

[Peelee]

Ok, j-beda, if you really want to donate money without buying something you don't want, why not donate in his name to one of the charities he mentioned? According to his own words, that is one of the more preferable methods of supporting him, with the added bonus of that charity getting more money. There is no downside to this option (and it is also very admirable on both the Giant's and the donor's part to boot).

I'm not saying you HAVE to donate, but i am saying that is a viable option that the Giant prefers that also fulfils your criteria of not buying things you don't want, and it seems as if you are ignoring it out of hand solely because you're not putting your five bucks into the Giant's wallet with your own hand. Proverbially speaking.

[j-beda]

I'm not saying you HAVE to donate, but i am saying that is a viable option that the Giant prefers that also fulfils your criteria of not buying things you don't want, and it seems as if you are ignoring it out of hand solely because you're not putting your five bucks into the Giant's wallet with your own hand. Proverbially speaking.

Sorry to give the impression that I am ignoring a viable option. As I stated up there in reply #6 after I learned of that option, it is certainly one worth considering, particularly since "The Giant" has "revalidated" the 2013 "Tipjar" posting http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...2&postcount=28 .

I am kind of enamoured with the "look how much money we have pledged" type of think that Kickstarter or Patreon allows one to participate in - I wonder if any content creators have used that type of tracking for charity fundraising? Patreon also allows small but recurring payments that are probably not as easy to set up with an arbitrary charity. I see that CanadaHelps allows anyone to put together a "fundraiser" for an arbitrary Canadian charity that does at least some rudimentary tracking: https://www.canadahelps.org/en/fundraise/

Anyhow, thanks for everyone's thoughts on the topic.

- jb

[littlebum2002]

Step 1: Go on Amazon and put up copies of all the OOTS books (which you don't own yet) for sale.
Step 2: Wait until someone in the US buys a book (which you don't have yet) from you
Step 3: Get their address, buy a book from Oookodook, and have them deliver it to your buyer's address.

That way, you only have to pay US domestic shipping costs, which are not that high, most of your money goes to Rich, and the only real loss you sustain is the shipping costs and whatever markdown you put on the book to make people decide to buy it from you.

Using your example,. you'd buy a book for $21.95, probably pay $5-6 in shipping, no tax, no bokerage fee, then probably sell it for $18 and Ookodook would do all the shipping. You'd be out about $10 and Rich would be up whatever the author and publisher take on $21.95 is, which I'd guess is probably close to $10, if not even more, and a lucky OOTS fan out there would have a brand new book for less than he would have paid at Ookodook.

[j-beda]

Step 1: Go on Amazon and put up copies of all the OOTS books (which you don't own yet) for sale.
Step 2: Wait until someone in the US buys a book (which you don't have yet) from you
Step 3: Get their address, buy a book from Oookodook, and have them deliver it to your buyer's address.

That's kind of a fun idea. I am not certain that I can list a book for sale on Amazon.com as a Canadian, and listing on Amazon.ca would defeat the purpose of doing it in the first place. One could also order books for delivery to libraries in the US.

- jb

[Xapi]

That's kind of a fun idea. I am not certain that I can list a book for sale on Amazon.com as a Canadian, and listing on Amazon.ca would defeat the purpose of doing it in the first place. One could also order books for delivery to libraries in the US.

- jb

If I were in your shoes, I'd certainly consider simply buying the books and then giving them away to local libraries and/or schools.

Another idea, buy clothes from Café Press and give them away to people who need them.

If you feel that the money that reaches Rich that way is not enough, then be safe in the thought that this is the consequence of Rich's desitions, and you have no reason, and no way, to change that.

Bottom line: Spend what you feel the comic is worth to you on Rich's products. Give those products away to someone who needs them. Let Rich worry about the overhead that comes with his own business desitions.

[Aasimar]

Like people have said, Rich basically wants to avoid the assumption that giving him more money would or should lead to an expectation of more comics.

In relation to Patreon, I would like to say that it always reminds me of the movie Wayne's World.

"Patreon Wayne!"
"Patreon Garth!"

[martianmister]

When you accept Patreon, you also accept their right to patronize you.