Werewolf Classic XIX: Return to Transylvania

[Saposhiente]

Pah, kids these days with their gambits. All about the fancy plays. Back in my day, you saw the person you thought was most suspicious and you voted for them! None of this "Ooh, let's vote for this guy but not tell anybody why, so that they're all left unsure of whether we actually want them dead!" Just good old-fashioned democratic murder. Now that's justice

[Internet Flea]

In my day, it was all gambits all the time, because they're super fun.

[Chessgeek]

Chessgeek points at Eldritch Knight for being the least awful of three wagons.
EDIT: To elaborate, I don't want to lynch him because I assume he hasn't played in quite some time, but none of the alternatives seem very wolfish to me. Except Murska. He's always a wolf.

[Logic]

I'm all for either lynching Sapo or EK, but for now I am formally changing my vote to reflect that Logic points at Eldritch Knight.

[Eldritch Knight]

Having had a chance to think while I was working overnight, I have a better way of phrasing why I object to Sapo's strategy. I freely admit that I am not as effective in the early game, as my strength is in the late game. If we lynch the people who are stronger in the late game early on, that's a long-term advantage for the wolves. Perhaps I am too much of an idealist, but I cannot grasp why you'd treat people who are just here to play the game as expendable simply because they do not have a power role. It has ALWAYS been my preference to keep the collateral damage to a minimum, because for every innocent lynched, the wolves are one step closer to winning.

To quote the Doctor, "Just this once, Rose, EVERYBODY LIVES." That is the ideal game scenario for me - taking out the wolves with a significant number of villagers remaining.

Eldritch Knight points at Saposhiente

[Elenna]

Elenna points at Eldritch Knight for pretty much what everyone else said.

[Eldritch Knight]

Well, how else does he expect to gather evidence? Really I wasn't aware I was describing a strategy; that's simply how the game is played. You of course have to acknowledge that you will very rarely find wolves just by talking, and in fact most of the time you will be finding people who are not wolves. Already I have no strong wolf reads but do have some good town reads: I can be very confident to say that we should not lynch Xihirli, and experience finds that my reads are in fact reflective of reality. Meanwhile I think that the pressure on Luizeu is a good exercise that is gaining us new evidence, but also agree that there isn't real evidence against him. I will have to check his history though; he's clearly more experienced than I thought.

But, by focusing on my vague description of what people talk about at Day, you've missed the larger point. EK is almost advocating for a No Lynch day 1, by his description of strategy, but he won't vote for No Lynch because anybody worth their salt knows that Day 1 No Lynch is a terrible idea, for exactly these reasons that have been talked to death and that I'm talking more on now. Really, it surprises me how often I have to discuss it, but it's likely because of the emotional reaction that newbies fall into when they don't understand the whole system. So if a new player had posted what EK had said, I would have corrected them and moved on, but the idea that after however many years EK still doesn't truly understand that town must lynch as often as possible in order to win shocks me.

You say we should only focus on votes. If you can't figure out even a small portion of people based on how they talk, go ahead. It's not a key part of the strategy, so if you can find lynch targets grounded in solid logic this way, great. Welcome aboard, and please make yourself as visible and annoying as possible to the wolves so that they kill you instead of the powerroles. But EK doesn't want to do that. He wants to wait. Following his strategy, he won't even give you the vote evidence you want; he wants to twiddle his thumbs just in case, oh no!, we lynch a villager, why it would be so sad and we would feel guilty and stop lynching just to prevent such a horrific trage--No. That is the emotional trap every wolf dreams of luring Town into. We will lynch every day, and avoiding that lynch when it would otherwise fall on you isn't a right; it's a privilege. When you enter the game you are expendable, and if you want to be anything more you have to earn your place in town, you have to force the wolves to kill you by threatening to make their daily task of deception just a little bit harder, whether by analysing attitudes or analysing votes, and EK has shown me that when he is a villager, he usually does neither. He instead greedily focuses, just as he is now, wholly on self-preservation, thus freeing him to, as a wolf, also focus solely on self-preservation. That is not how we win the game, and if we are to lynch someone without any evidence, I'd much rather lynch someone that isn't going to create any evidence in the future, and that is in fact encouraging people to avoid creating evidence, just so that they can live longer. That is the greedy, boring, and wolfy strategy to Werewolf, and I don't want it in our village.

Sapo, I doubt you intended for this to come across as almost at personal attack, but that's certainly how it seemed to me. Also, didn't we discuss leaving previous games as just that, previous games. For that matter, where have I advocated 'No Lynch' in this game? I've just been saying to collect as much voting information as possible - besides, if one can figure out the pattern of night kills, they can usually pinpoint a few wolves. Case in point: after all of this, if Sapo was nightkilled, wouldn't the finger of suspicion be pointed right at me the next morning? The smart wolves would realize these targets, and as a result can direct the village's pattern of voting. You want to know why I hold back from demonstrating my analytical intellect? Because I don't want to be seen as a threat, by either the wolves OR the village. But obviously, you've decided that I don't have anything of worth to contribute to this game, when you've never even demonstrated an interest in giving me the chance.

[Internet Flea]

Elenna points at Eldritch Knight for pretty much what everyone else said.

Could you restate it for me?

[DungeonMaster77]

VOICE OF THE NARRATOR

The ghost of DM77 steps out carrying a box. The side says "SOAP" and he turns it over and steps up on it.

Firstly, I want to restate that this was SUPPOSED to be a LIGHT-HEARTED game of Classic. Things are getting WAY too aggressive and serious, and I have already received multiple complaints via PM.

Also, please be reminded that *I* am the Narrator, here, and I will not tolerate unsportsmanlike conduct. If things continue, I will shut down this game and contact the Mods.

Werewolf was always supposed to be fun. Yes, it is a game, and a level of competitiveness is expected, but it was NEVER about who won or lost, but the fun of the game. It was never to be taken so seriously that I have players complaining that they are thinking of quitting and never playing again because a few people have been sucking the life out of the games. Several people have refused returning to play, stating past problems exactly like this. This was a game that builds friendships, not tear them down. We are supposed to be a community here, so why don't we start acting like it?

DM77 now steps off his box.

I have decided that I will not do a "most lynchings at the end of a pre-determined time gets lynched", and will require a 51% or greater majority vote for lynchings for now. I will check in periodically throughout the day, and revisit this later. Vote count to come later this afternoon, around 1pm Central Time.

[Murska]

Everyone should try to keep in mind the following simple heuristic: If, when writing a post, you suspect that some part of it might be construed as an insult, rewrite it immediately and repeat until the problem is fixed. If you can't, just don't post it.

[Xihirli]

I say we completely leave our fate in the hands of the trustworthy Murska and continue in complete safety.

[Murska]

Well, that also works.

[Mordokai]

I say we completely leave our fate in the hands of the trustworthy Murska and continue in complete safety.

*berates the new guy*

Bad Xihirli! Bad! Don't ever say that, not even in joke!



People might actually be inclined to follow your advice, you know...

[AvatarVecna]

I say we completely leave our fate in the hands of the trustworthy Murska and continue in complete safety.

Sounds good to me.

[Saposhiente]

Let's move the discussion of how Werewolf ought to be played to Central; I've made a large post there. In the meantime I stand by my conclusion that EK's strategy is not the correct one to win the game and will not further discuss it unless someone asks for further evidence about this point.

[AvatarVecna]

Let's move the discussion of how Werewolf ought to be played to Central; I've made a large post there. In the meantime I stand by my conclusion that EK's strategy is not the correct one to win the game and will not further discuss it unless someone asks for further evidence about this point.

I want to clarify their style: is EK the one who doesn't really do anything if they're not a power role?

EDIT: Because yeah, I gotta agree; doing nothing because you feel powerless just lets the wolves win; they're the only ones who gain anything by the village behaving so apathetically. Imagine if every villager did that in a game.

[Saposhiente]

That is my first reason for lynching him, but it is not the subject of the larger debate.

[Eldritch Knight]

I want to clarify their style: is EK the one who doesn't really do anything if they're not a power role?

EDIT: Because yeah, I gotta agree; doing nothing because you feel powerless just lets the wolves win; they're the only ones who gain anything by the village behaving so apathetically. Imagine if every villager did that in a game.

Ah, and here is the error. Just because you don't see me doing anything doesn't mean that I am doing nothing. I take copious notes for my personal use, sorting out voting histories. As this is a no PM game, this means that I have no means of sharing my observations without putting myself at risk of nightkill. If you really think that I'm a useless player, I would strongly recommend that you look up past games. Specifically Mafia II, as that was my strongest game here.

[Saposhiente]

You won as wolf in that game. I have seen you make strong plays--as a wolf. I do not doubt your wolfing skill. But that is only more reason to lynch you. Show us a game in which you were a villager with no powers but still made a great contribution to town.

[AvatarVecna]

Ah, and here is the error. Just because you don't see me doing anything doesn't mean that I am doing nothing. I take copious notes for my personal use, sorting out voting histories. As this is a no PM game, this means that I have no means of sharing my observations without putting myself at risk of nightkill. If you really think that I'm a useless player, I would strongly recommend that you look up past games. Specifically Mafia II, as that was my strongest game here.

I wasn't insinuating myself that you used that style; I was merely trying to confirm what I recalled seeing Sapo post earlier in the thread about your playstyle. My comment was about the "apathetic villager" playstyle, not your playstyle in particular (unless that's your playstyle, which I'm not entirely sure it is).

[Eldritch Knight]

I wasn't insinuating myself that you used that style; I was merely trying to confirm what I recalled seeing Sapo post earlier in the thread about your playstyle. My comment was about the "apathetic villager" playstyle, not your playstyle in particular (unless that's your playstyle, which I'm not entirely sure it is).

I don't always use that style - it all depends on what my role is. Usually, if I'm just a villager, I keep my head down and my ears open. More often than not, you end up being the swing vote, and that's the true power of the vanilla villager. Wolves use it too, but it's more risky for them to do so that it is for a villager. Which is why most bandwagons have a mix of villagers and wolves. It's not surprising for wolves to point at each other in the first few days of play, either - because voting records can be used to clear oneself of suspicion, at least temporarily.

[Xihirli]

*berates the new guy*

Bad Xihirli! Bad! Don't ever say that, not even in joke!



People might actually be inclined to follow your advice, you know...

I figured Murska would put it in his signature.

[TFT]

I figured Murska would put it in his signature.

It's okay, playing werewolf to be put in signatures is a 100% valid strategy.

Not that I've ever done that, no...

[Legato Endless]

VOICE OF THE NARRATOR
I want to restate that this was SUPPOSED to be a LIGHT-HEARTED game of Classic. Things are getting WAY too aggressive and serious, and I have already received multiple complaints via PM.

My apologies. Denigrating your game was not intentional, yet remains inexcusable, particularly for a returning individual hoping to reacquaint themselves with an old passion. I will recommit to being a better player.

[DungeonMaster77]

Firstly, I would like to state that none of my comments were supposed to be aimed at any one player, though Central now has some "discussion" about the matter. That said, I saw the tone of the game going in a bad direction, and with the combination of the complaints in my email and PM inboxes, I had to address it. I know I'm not a Mod, but I'm pretty sure that I get at least a *little* say as to what goes on in a game I am "running" (or Narrating/or whatever you want to call it), and I just want us to have a good time.

In that spirit, thank you Legato, and I hope everyone feels the same way.

Now, assuming we can put this messiness out of the way behind all of us, back to our regularly scheduled broadcast:

Current Voting Tallies, in order of most to least:

Eldritch Knight: 7 votes
Saposhiente: 5 votes
Logic: 2 votes
Luizeu: 2 votes
Xihirli: 2 votes
Murska: 1 vote
Mordokai: 1 vote
Elenna: 1 vote
ThePhantom: 1 vote
B-Man: 1 vote
"Lloyd" (non-existant player): 1 vote

*Lloyd looks up and gasps..."HEY NOW!! I'm just the garbage collector! I'm not a werewolf! Stop voting for me!!!"

*Lloyd goes back to picking up the trash...

[Xihirli]

We don't have a player named Lloyd?

[Legato Endless]

Lloyd was banned from play for being un-killable. Bizarrely, Wolves don't like eating garbage. Or people who smell like garbage.

Legato points at Lex, because the wolves in the intro were preoccupied with food preparation, and Lex has cake. Cake=Food. Food=Eating.Humans eat cakes. Lex has had that cake for weeks and weeks. What normal human being wouldn't eat a cake after long? It makes no sense.

[Elenna]

I figured Murska would put it in his signature.

It's okay, playing werewolf to be put in signatures is a 100% valid strategy.

Not that I've ever done that, no...

For the record, I didn't actually make that comment about Xihirli with the intention that he would put it in his signature. I'm rather flattered, though.

[Xihirli]

You captured the essence of Stupid Evil (my alignment) quite well, I wanted to keep it.
I've recently considered shifting over to Chaotic Stupid.
Or I could go for Stupid Stupid. ("True Stupid") That would invent a whole new alignment!
Anyway, I was flattered, so I'm keeping it forever.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...dChaoticStupid

EDIT: Yay! I'm a Murskite!

[Murska]

I figured Murska would put it in his signature.

Oh, right. I have those. I might as well add it, it fits the collection nicely.