OOTS #969 - The Discussion Thread

[Angelalex242]

I remember a skit where Anakin mocks ObiWan for that...

"...That was an absolute, Darth Kenobi!"

[The Giant]

Hey, let's ease back on the gender stereotyping and the talking about gender stereotyping and generalizing all that, OK?

And let's avoid trying to predict another poster's gender/orientation based on their comments, and/or attributing points of view to someone because of their gender. That has no place here, so stop it.

In fact, let's just all drop that whole portion of the conversation and only talk about the comic from now on.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

As per the GIant's request, I have removed the original content of this post.

SPECULATION: Gnome lady is left-handed.

EVIDENCE: In panels one, five, and seven, she gestures with her left hand. In panels four, eight, and nine, she holds the clasp with her left hand.

[Koo Rehtorb]

How sinister.

[Keltest]

As per the GIant's request, I have removed the original content of this post.

SPECULATION: Gnome lady is left-handed.

EVIDENCE: In panels one, five, and seven, she gestures with her left hand. In panels four, eight, and nine, she holds the clasp with her left hand.

Well I think she's ambidextrious. More specifically, she was born left handed, but due to her trade learned to use both hands equally.

[Peelee]

How sinister.

Bravo, sir.

[The Giant]

If you're going to make that argument, in this case it seems that the Giant agrees with those people, because the voluntarily offered date is considered immoral for Belkar to accept.

Why it's immoral, though, I haven't the faintest clue. Because he abused her trust to get a better deal? Haley does that constantly throughout the strips, and the morality of it is never brought up, really. Are we supposed to think, "Go Haley" when she does it, but "Boo Belkar" when he does? Why?

Whether or not it would be immoral for Belkar to go on the date is far, FAR less important than how Belkar feels about going on the date. The point isn't that it would have been the most heinous act in the world if he had gone for lunch; the point is that it was an unusual act of conscience for him to not go. Obviously, an even more impressive act of conscience would have been for him to not cheat her in the first place (or to own up to it afterward), but Belkar has a long way to go. He didn't have a problem cheating her when he did it, it was only her innocent invitation afterward that made him suddenly feel bad. Belkar is so new to this "caring" thing that he doesn't yet know what things will make him feel guilty until after he's already done them!

If your reaction is that, in similar circumstances, Haley would probably have gone on the date and scored a free meal, well, no, she wouldn't have. To my memory, Haley has never led anyone on romantically as part of a bluff. But if it did happen, it would not be to Haley's credit that it had.

None of which has anything to do with the situation about fixing the ship, which a.) involved the shipyard owner inflating the amount of time it would take to actually fix it (since it's clear afterward that she was physically capable of fixing it faster), b.) involved a trade whose promotional value may have been calculated as equal or greater than the cost of fixing the ship anyway, c.) involved the literal fate of the world as opposed to a free lunch, and d.) did not involve possibly romantic/sexual feelings, the abuse of which is generally considered much more egregious.

Haley is constantly treading water between Good and Neutral; if she swindles someone for the greater good, that's par for the course—no alignment implications. Belkar, on the other hand, is so deep underwater that any less-Evil-than-it-could-be action, however small, is noteworthy.

[GAAD]

Belkar, on the other hand, is so deep underwater that any less-Evil-than-it-could-be action, however small, is noteworthy.

You mean rumbleworthy?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

How sinister.

This forum has the best puns.

[Angelalex242]

Well, I am pleased to see we were correct when the Giant flat out told us the point is that Belkar's Kilonazis are on the decline. :)

Assuming he even still HAS a Kilonazi. He might be down to only 500 of them. Or less.

[asorel]

Well, I am pleased to see we were correct when the Giant flat out told us the point is that Belkar's Kilonazis are on the decline. :)

Assuming he even still HAS a Kilonazi. He might be down to only 500 of them. Or less.

Pardon me for straying off-topic, but I have wondered as to how much evil a kilonazi actually represents. Does a single unit of the Nazi scale represent a rank-and-file Nazi? A general or Fuehrer? All of the evil done by the Nazis divided by the number of Nazis?

[Gnoman]

Well, I am pleased to see we were correct when the Giant flat out told us the point is that Belkar's Kilonazis are on the decline. :)

Assuming he even still HAS a Kilonazi. He might be down to only 500 of them. Or less.

He's been hovering at about .5 Knz since shortly after joining Roy, according to the chart in 489.

[dancrilis]

To my memory, Haley has never led anyone on romantically as part of a bluff. But if it did happen, it would not be to Haley's credit that it had.

For reference here, while not too her credit, I don't really see it as too her detriment either though.

[Angelalex242]

Hmmm. If he was .5 Knz then, and he's SIGNIFCANTLY nicer now...I don't know...50 Nazis? 25?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Hmmm. If he was .5 Knz then, and he's SIGNIFCANTLY nicer now...I don't know...50 Nazis? 25?

I don't see were you are getting that he is all that nicer. The Giant just said that "Belkar, on the other hand, is so deep underwater that any less-Evil-than-it-could-be action, however small, is noteworthy." which tells not only that Belkar is not significantly nicer, but also that is most recent act is only nice because he is so Evil.

[Angelalex242]

I took it as the point being that he's slowly moving towards redemption. After all, when was the last blatantly evil thing Belkar's done?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I took it as the point being that he's slowly moving towards redemption. After all, when was the last blatantly evil thing Belkar's done?

Lying to the gnome about the quality of her product. Plus, not doing Evil is not the same as becoming less Evil. And there is quite a difference between moving towards redemption and changing by over 450n.

[The Giant]

For reference here, while not too her credit, I don't really see it as too her detriment either though.

Fair, I forgot about that one. I also agree that it doesn't reflect especially poorly on her, given that she is bound and helpless at the mercy of an enemy.

[Keltest]

Fair, I forgot about that one. I also agree that it doesn't reflect especially poorly on her, given that she is bound and helpless at the mercy of an enemy.

"Helpless" apparently being a relative term.

[Eugenitor]

Huh. Given the title and some of the seemingly ambiguous text, I thought that maybe Rich had spared us the scene of him feeding her to his cat, answering Mr. Scruffy's unspoken questions of why he didn't eat any himself. Never mind.

[brian 333]

I have seen several posts regarding the result of driving out the HPoH via the Prot. vs. E clasp. While that spell has no power to break existing enchantments, there is another, more important fact to consider:

Durkon is dead. He is not posessed, he is not.alive and his dead corpse is animated by negative energy and its actions dictated by a negative energy spirit.

If HPoH were somehow removed from Durkula, the best result would be that Durkon was dead but his soul was no longer bound, and thus free to go to tbe dwarven afterlife. (Which may well be a visit to Hel's realm due to the dishonorable manner of.his death.)

Kill HPoH by any means, and Durkon still needs.a raise.

[Gnoman]

After thinking about it, it's pretty indicative of Belkar's current character that, despite the gnome explicitly having multiple copies of the item, he bought exactly one. This is enough to protect him, but does nothing to help the rest of the order. Even if he lacked the funding to purchase more, Elan or Roy would probably have said something about bringing the rest of the party over to pick some up if nothing else. In other words, he may be improving, but he's still very self-centered and selfish, and deserves an Evil alignment.

[asorel]

After thinking about it, it's pretty indicative of Belkar's current character that, despite the gnome explicitly having multiple copies of the item, he bought exactly one. This is enough to protect him, but does nothing to help the rest of the order. Even if he lacked the funding to purchase more, Elan or Roy would probably have said something about bringing the rest of the party over to pick some up if nothing else. In other words, he may be improving, but he's still very self-centered and selfish, and deserves an Evil alignment.

The rest of the party isn't convinced that the HPoH is working against them. The HPoH might notice if the rest of the Order suddenly showed up with matching brooches. There's also a very real chance that Roy would have felt obligated to tell the HPoH about this, thinking it's another one of Belkar's tricks. Granted, there is nothing to indicate that Belkar is putting this amount of thought into the matter, but I don't think that it's a stretch to assume that he knows that he is ultimately alone in suspecting 'Durkon,' and his preparations reflect that.

[Reboot]

He's been hovering at about .5 Knz since shortly after joining Roy, according to the chart in 489.

kNz. Kilo is always small "k"!

[DaggerPen]

Huh. Given the title and some of the seemingly ambiguous text, I thought that maybe Rich had spared us the scene of him feeding her to his cat, answering Mr. Scruffy's unspoken questions of why he didn't eat any himself. Never mind.

... if the question of whether or not to include Giant's clarification that Belkar turned her down was still open over on the Index of the Giant's Comments thread, this comment would have been enough to make my mind up towards inclusion.

After thinking about it, it's pretty indicative of Belkar's current character that, despite the gnome explicitly having multiple copies of the item, he bought exactly one. This is enough to protect him, but does nothing to help the rest of the order. Even if he lacked the funding to purchase more, Elan or Roy would probably have said something about bringing the rest of the party over to pick some up if nothing else. In other words, he may be improving, but he's still very self-centered and selfish, and deserves an Evil alignment.

I think I'd just call that a Neutral act. Thoughtlessness and selfishness aren't evil unless they involve reckless negligence or intentionally hurting someone, IMO.

[dtilque]

Huh. Given the title and some of the seemingly ambiguous text, I thought that maybe Rich had spared us the scene of him feeding her to his cat, answering Mr. Scruffy's unspoken questions of why he didn't eat any himself. Never mind.

This is about a Hobbit and his Cat, not a Boy and his Dog.....

[Amphiox]

He's been hovering at about .5 Knz since shortly after joining Roy, according to the chart in 489.

Ah, but are kilonazis cumulative (and what that chart measuring total accrued or current output?)?

If so, someone has to integrate the area under that curve...


A question - could the pain from using the item have gameplay mechanics implications? Like a -1 penalty to certain concentration checks or whatnot from being distracted by it for the duration of the spell?

[Angelalex242]

Kilonazis are apparently a measurement of current output, as the chart that explains them in the first place had Belkar at 3 Kilonazis, and he would've gone up to 7 Kilonazis without Roy's intervention. With it, however, he's down to the aforementioned half a Kilonazi.

...only in relation to Belkar Bitterleaf would we say 'equal to 500 Nazis' and call it improvement :P

[Shining Wrath]

Whether or not it would be immoral for Belkar to go on the date is far, FAR less important than how Belkar feels about going on the date. The point isn't that it would have been the most heinous act in the world if he had gone for lunch; the point is that it was an unusual act of conscience for him to not go. Obviously, an even more impressive act of conscience would have been for him to not cheat her in the first place (or to own up to it afterward), but Belkar has a long way to go. He didn't have a problem cheating her when he did it, it was only her innocent invitation afterward that made him suddenly feel bad. Belkar is so new to this "caring" thing that he doesn't yet know what things will make him feel guilty until after he's already done them!

If your reaction is that, in similar circumstances, Haley would probably have gone on the date and scored a free meal, well, no, she wouldn't have. To my memory, Haley has never led anyone on romantically as part of a bluff. But if it did happen, it would not be to Haley's credit that it had.

None of which has anything to do with the situation about fixing the ship, which a.) involved the shipyard owner inflating the amount of time it would take to actually fix it (since it's clear afterward that she was physically capable of fixing it faster), b.) involved a trade whose promotional value may have been calculated as equal or greater than the cost of fixing the ship anyway, c.) involved the literal fate of the world as opposed to a free lunch, and d.) did not involve possibly romantic/sexual feelings, the abuse of which is generally considered much more egregious.

Haley is constantly treading water between Good and Neutral; if she swindles someone for the greater good, that's par for the course—no alignment implications. Belkar, on the other hand, is so deep underwater that any less-Evil-than-it-could-be action, however small, is noteworthy.

So you're saying that underwater creatures are the epitome of evil? This probably explains why we haven't seen the Sahuagin - too depraved for a family strip.

[Themrys]

Whether or not it would be immoral for Belkar to go on the date is far, FAR less important than how Belkar feels about going on the date. The point isn't that it would have been the most heinous act in the world if he had gone for lunch; the point is that it was an unusual act of conscience for him to not go. Obviously, an even more impressive act of conscience would have been for him to not cheat her in the first place (or to own up to it afterward), but Belkar has a long way to go. He didn't have a problem cheating her when he did it, it was only her innocent invitation afterward that made him suddenly feel bad. Belkar is so new to this "caring" thing that he doesn't yet know what things will make him feel guilty until after he's already done them!

That's what I was trying to explain the whole time.