OOTS #936 - The Discussion Thread

[Liliet]

This is a terrible ending!

How can Tarkie fall so far without our favorite cushions making an appearance?

Cut to cushions off in the tropics drinking margaritas.

No, in the court moving to ajourn. You seem to have forgotten their latest appearance.

[Vikenlugaid]

"i'm not a twin anymore"

Mom! Elan has scared me!! buaaaaaaaaaah


So perfect ending

[Liliet]

"i'm not a twin anymore"

Mom! Elan has scared me!! buaaaaaaaaaah


So perfect ending

His facial expression.

Or rather, his lack of it.

Tarquin is sooo dense...

[Fingolfin]

Great comic as always

[EclipseDarkSun]

It occurs to me that the only thing worse for Tarquin than Elan's cutting comment "You're not the real villain" would be if he'd run into "Zyklon" previously and upon running into him a second time he'd forgotten him, like Roy had to deal with :D

[SowZ]

Except Durkon. And Nale... wait, he wasn't on team Good. Still. Elan has lost his brother which motivated him to not save his father.

The villain doesn't die in all conventional stories. Quite often, especially in the kids' stories (cartoons, for example), especially if he's the recurring villain, he's just left there like that, stranded, mad at the world, powerless. Alive.

The world is not set right yet because Tarquin's a sidequest villain. For a sidequest, it's absolutely conventional.

Conventional to the letter.



Did you somehow miss the first sentence of my post that said "This is the most perfect ending possible"? This page is the best proof that tropes are awesome when you know how to use them.



I guess it's again me being from different background, having read Russian fantasy instead of English fantasy all my life... here, what you call "stuck trope&theme" is as obsolete as overly dramatic monologues from Shakespearian plays. Even the bad writers who write in cliches attempting to emulate more successful ones use "the Evil Overlord has actually been good all along and those who call themselves Light are racist and prejudiced" instead of "Always Evil Orcs".

See above, anyway. I know what this is about. This ending is perfect in its irony of having played all tropes Tarquin wanted to be played straight, completely and utterly straight, but him not noticing it because he's on the losing side, not a part of the audience.



Wait, what?

What do you think tropes are? (hint: fundamental storytelling elements)



Except all of them are. Even the terms "hero" and "villain" are tropes. Tropes are fundamental storytelling elements that remain the same from story to story and help set up the framework and the readers' expectations of the story.



No-one said it was o.O



Wait, wait, I get it. We have a misunderstanding right here. You are not talking about the tvtropes definition of what a trope is, are you?



Right here - you have no idea how wrong you are.

Spoiler: How this wasn't anything resembling DeM

Show

The villain... all right, that's not fair, antagonist... that guy I mentioned was, basically, pursuing the same goal as a hero. He was just more extreme and less ethical - the Well-Intentioned Extremist in his prime. They had philosophical and political differences - most importantly, philosophical. The antagonist's point of view was that he was more experienced, more successful and less naive than the protagonist who was way too young and naive and easily manipulated for politics.

What happened was that this antagonist admitted the hero has been right all along. It was a genuinely climactic moment, and it was the hero's rightful victory. He was proven to not just be stronger, but to be right. The antagonist arrived at the spot, and what he saw there, what was happening, made him stop and say "No, what I have been doing all this time wasn't right".

Yes, the hero wasn't personally strong enough to overpower everyone else and make things go his way. But he didn't need to be, and didn't expect to be, either. His victory was choosing the _right_ way, having chosen it from the start and followed it to the end.

It's not as simple as the "conventional" story of Star Wars and Lord of the Rings, the story that the Western storytelling is stuck with, but there's nothing Deus Ex Machina-ish about it. It was justified, just and awesome in context.

also, it was a bow he lowered, not a knife. Don't be so quick to assume everything is conventional.



Yes, it does. A trope sets up readers' expectations. A subverted trope sets up readers' expectations, and then, well, subverts them. "A work makes you think a trope is going to happen, but it doesn't."



Your first point is absolutely fair, as the Giant has proved here.
Your second point is just us using different vocabularies.


Once again, what I was talking about: the irony of this update is that Tarquin is WRONG. He says that this ending defies storytelling conventions, that the traditional tropes are not employed. He also says that Elan hasn't lost anything and hasn't grown. HE IS WRONG.

Come on, that last panel is heroes flying off into sunset! It doesn't get more traditional than that!

And I'm expressing my respect and amazement here, not distaste. Tropes are not bad. When used properly, they are FREAKING AWESOME, like here.

If the villain decided it randomly, without foreshadowing, or if he came to that conclusion of his own accord and not through decisions the hero made that ultimately culminated in the villain turning from his evil ways, it is a deus-ex-machina. Anything that swoops in and saves the day, even the villain's conscience, not as a direct result of the hero's actions is a dues-ex-machina.

I suppose you didn't say unpredictability is always good, I inferred it because my reading of your post was one with a critical tone.

It's possible we have a difference in terms. Trope is a broad word and can just mean a figure of speech or theme, but the way we are talking about here I'm under the impression we were talking about a trope as in, 'a commonly used plot device.' That's how I've heard trope used most frequently in literary discussions and is the definition I found appropriate here. (Clearly, a figure of speech and a theme wouldn't be relevant.)

If TVTropes goes beyond just devices, and also includes basic storytelling methods in the definition, I suppose that the things you called tropes are tropes by that view. But then I don't see much point saying OOTS is filled with tropes. By that definition, aren't all stories just back to back tropes?

[Dracon1us]

Pathetic old man doesn't know what happens next
almost sad
almost

[Madrath Thunder]

And people always ask me while I enchant at least 1 ring with feather fall at all times. I don't like being thrown off floating places. But yeah, Tarquin is a fool. Enchantments come first people. Never forget.

[choken1]

Gotta love D&D falling damage

Yeah... I, myself have thought of how that can be more realistically depicted. In the real world, it's statistically possible to survive falling from a terminal velocity height (anything from roughly 500m/1.500ft or higher) albeit very unlikely. It would make sense to do incremental damage up to a certain height + a save from not dying (e.g. falling on your head or broken ribs puncturing your lungs) and once you hit terminal territory it would be a save to not die and automatically be at negative hit points instead.

P.S.
Superb update and I reserve the rights to disagree with Tarquin's opinion.

[Sir_Leorik]

I think it's a shout out to Sauron's backstory in the Lord of the Rings.

What?

Tarquin was referring to this type of story being "popular nowadays", and while "Silence of the Lambs" did it a while back, "Avengers" and various TV shows are making it a popular trope these days.

[Gusion]

And people always ask me while I enchant at least 1 ring with feather fall at all times. I don't like being thrown off floating places. But yeah, Tarquin is a fool. Enchantments come first people. Never forget.

I suspect that Tarquin's literal fall is alluding to his fall in terms of power and control. Anything that would change his literal fall would get in the way of the Story, which rules over all else.

I personally think the transition between could-do-no-wrong Tarquin of the comic 750-760s to now wasn't the best. But I would expect anything critical renders me in the minority here.

[Gift Jeraff]

Wow. I just noticed something...

We're nearly at the end of the "day" that started around comic #834. That comic was published/written in 2012.

This single day in the OOTS-verse has taken a little over a year to write. Wow.

Closer to 2 years, actually. #834 was made February 2012, IIRC.

EDIT: Also, I think the day actually started in #823, going by how long it took for the OOTS to get the sending about Xykon.

[DarkLadyNyara]

"And you're not the real villain."

Heh. Someone's ego is going to be limping after this. All in all, I think this was the perfect way to deal with Tarquin. (Also, I'd like to express my undying love of Haley. )

[Nightcanon]

Given the results (Tarquin's fall), the Order is very lucky T's reflexes worked. If he'd had a moment to think it through (or if Haley had had sneak attacked him), I bet he would have rather taken full damage from both Haley's shots rather than risk letting go and lose his chance to keep going after the Order. He might even have come out ahead damagewise that way instead of falling, although I suspect not.

I think he's going to take sneak attack damage on one of those arrows, since he's almost certainly lost his Dex bonus to AC dangling of the side of the airship (and the argument that he might be a candidate for a Coup de Grace is reasonable, since his options for defending himself are either letting go or snatching arrows; if he does neither then what else can he do?). So say he takes an arrow or two to the head- say d6 + 8d6 (sneak)+ d10 (icy burst) + d6 (second arrow). Assuming no one else gets involved, he's still left hanging onto the side of the ship next round, with the options of: continuing to try to convince Elan to help him aboard, or trying to climb aboard while Elan tries to stop him. Then Haley fires another pair of arrows at his head, and we're back where we were...

[hamishspence]

Closer to 2 years, actually. #834 was made February 2012, IIRC.

EDIT: Also, I think the day actually started in #823, going by how long it took for the OOTS to get the sending about Xykon.

I figured 834 was "first thing in the morning, just before the sun came up" and now the sun's setting.

[Gift Jeraff]

I figured 834 was "first thing in the morning, just before the sun came up" and now the sun's setting.

Now that I think about it, it's possible that #823-833 was happening concurrently with the early Windy Canyon strips.

[Darth]

I wonder what will happen to Tarquin now... Maybe he is broken enough to join Team Evil and become Xykon subordinate? Just to be a part of the main plot again...

[Lordchoculla]

New comic is up.

And since everyone will begin speculating immediately…

Spoiler

Show

No, this is not the last page in the book. It is pretty close, though.

Excellent strip! There are so many brilliant aspects here. Thanks!

And what a perfect way to show how little understanding Tarquin has of the real story. Even that this is the ending

Also.... Is littering permissible in the dessert? I mean.... both Laurin and Tarquin dumped?!

[Fnordius]

He'll probably have that claim dismissed since she bolted when faced with a lower-level character. I would think she might be penalized, but she was doing it to gain a favour, so the penalty would probably be less than if she ditched him while she owed him a favour.

However, Miron probably won't be severely penalized, as he acted in good faith. Sure, Tarquin might want to tear him a new hole for ditching them, but the other party members will probably hold him back by pointing out he called in the favour spontaneously, thus not allowing Miron to optimize his spell selection, and him being called out was for factors beyond his control

Even more likely is a small back and forth, with Tarquin trying to claim exactly that, and Laurin then telling him that he can walk back home.

[Liliet]

If the villain decided it randomly, without foreshadowing, or if he came to that conclusion of his own accord and not through decisions the hero made that ultimately culminated in the villain turning from his evil ways, it is a deus-ex-machina. Anything that swoops in and saves the day, even the villain's conscience, not as a direct result of the hero's actions is a dues-ex-machina.

That depends on how direct the direct result of hero actions should be. It was direct enough for me in that book. I don't think I can retell it here, just know that it was not about action, it was about politics, philosophy, ethics and peculiarities of living in the society with AIs.

Spoiler: More stuff about that book

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It was direct in the sense that it was hero who in the end forced the confrontation, made things so that the antagonist had to personally face the kid and confront the choice of killing or not killing a baby with his own hands. Otherwise, the machine would just work as always, and the girl would die as many others who get in the way of the politics die; but the hero managed to make it personal. "You are not just going to remove the inconvenient heir of the old dynasty from the board, you are going to kill my daughter, and I'll fight to prevent that with my bare teeth if needed". The book started with a hero deciding to marry a pregnant woman specifically with a purpose of protecting her child. And this idea worked because it was the right thing to do, and because the hero poured a lot of effort into protecting the girl. It paid off, even if not the way he expected it to - but it's not like he's a perfect human being who never makes mistakes, that would make the book boring. It paid off because the hero worked hard and it was the right thing to do. Full stop.


Was the ending of the Lord of the Rings Deus Ex Machina? I'm not talking about the eagles, I'm talking about the fate of the Ring itself. Frodo went crazy at the last moment, and Sam couldn't prevent it. It was Gollum, the antagonist, who dropped the Ring down. Was it not a direct result of the heroes' actions? Were these actions meaningless? No, because the only reason Gollum dropped the ring was that they were above the fiery pit, and the heroes did their job of bringing it there. The same.


Yeah, the "unconventional" ending I described actually mimicked the ending of the LotR. Well, it wasn't the same convention as the OotS employs... and it wasn't a convention because such an ending is pretty difficult to set up and play right, unlike the "final confrontation at the great height with the villain falling down", so it never became widely used.

I suppose you didn't say unpredictability is always good, I inferred it because my reading of your post was one with a critical tone.

Sorry. I was criticizing the readers who didn't notice Tarquin's mistake, not Rich. I guess I'm not good a writer as he is... as in, can't express my point properly.

It's possible we have a difference in terms. Trope is a broad word and can just mean a figure of speech or theme, but the way we are talking about here I'm under the impression we were talking about a trope as in, 'a commonly used plot device.' That's how I've heard trope used most frequently in literary discussions and is the definition I found appropriate here. (Clearly, a figure of speech and a theme wouldn't be relevant.)

The figure of speech, which I learned to be called a trope at school, is indeed irrelevant. I actually thought that was the way _you_ were applying it, because it's the only other meaning I'm familiar with, but no.

If TVTropes goes beyond just devices, and also includes basic storytelling methods in the definition, I suppose that the things you called tropes are tropes by that view. But then I don't see much point saying OOTS is filled with tropes. By that definition, aren't all stories just back to back tropes?

Yes, they are, in fact (and where would you draw the line between the device and the basic storytelling method?). But there are different sorts of them.

Everything on this page works for one purpose: the proper ending of this storyline. We don't see anyone or anything on the page that would serve any other purpose. We don't even see V who has been in the previous strip; including vir and Blackwing in some broad shot would establish continuity, but it wouldn't contribute to The Great Ending Of Tarquin's Story, so it wasn't there. We don't see anything about what's going to happen next, no worldbuilding, no character development for anyone but Tarquin and Elan, even Haley is reduced to a karma-rrific plot device.

The previous strip, Caster Fight, was all about the personalities' clash. All its jokes, all its awesome was built out of blocks prepared by this very story. I wouldn't dare say it's unique, but it's designed to be. It runs on V's personality and backstory, Laurin's implied backstory that ignited the whole thread about elves/humans relationship on the continent, on Blackwing's love of shiny baubles and referencing memes ("Bird to the face!"). It was all sorts of awesome, but all sorts of OotS-specific awesome.

This one? The only thing that makes it OotS-specific, besides the fact it was posted as part of its continuity, is the fact that Tarquin's thwarted plan was not of world domination, but of taking over the narrative. It was fully built out of blocks provided by the history of literature. This scene has, with a slight variation, happened before in this very comic, which was lampshaded by Elan. It employs every trick in the book just to convey the sense of closure, to tug at our emotional strings. What actually happens in it plot-wise is that Tarquin falls over the ledge which was absolutely predictable and logical. But it's three pages long, and these three pages are dedicated to employing all tropes that could possibly be relevant to this situation as the ending of the plotline. All right, ALL tropes might be a slight exaggeration, given that a lot of ending tropes are contradictory... but Rich did his best to cram as many of them as possible into one little scene: Tarquin falling down after having lost the fight (the losing itself happened in the previous strip).


The previous strip didn't exactly ignore or defy storytelling conventions, it just wasn't dependent on them. This one... it runs on them. On the cliched cliches from the cliched stories that work here awesomely because Rich is _that_ good and because it's the perfect irony of Tarquin _not_seeing_ them.


I guess what Rich tried to show here is that while the stories and tropes can be exploited and used in a bad way, they are not bad themselves. Tarquin noticed that the villain's loss can, from some perspective, not be seen as a loss; and yet he still lost from this very perspective, despite being a part of the very genre he wanted to hijack. A Tarquin-ish villain would be extremely inappropriate, silly and only fit for a madhouse in a story like one I mentioned that was about politics, but in a setting where his view of the world was actually valid? He still lost, because that villains lose as soon as they confront the heroes, no matter how genre savvy they are, is how this genre works.

Tarquin was referring to this type of story being "popular nowadays", and while "Silence of the Lambs" did it a while back, "Avengers" and various TV shows are making it a popular trope these days.

I dunno, I have barely heard about the "Avengers", definitely didn't know about them having that trope, and the Lord of the Rings with its backstory seems to be pretty well-known all over the world

[HeeJay]

My random guess:

Spoiler

Show

Tarquin trudges or crawls through the desert for many, many hours to reunite with the remains of his army.

Laurin *pops* in an demands her "favor" with a sexy wink. Tarquin wearily accepts, relieved it's nothing worse. Except it's not really Laurin. Enter Sabine. Exit Tarquin.

Spoiler

Show

That would be the only way I would accept a "Laurin's favor is sexual" plot.

Brilliant!

[mystic1110]

Does anyone know where Rich posts about Tarquin's group having another leader/tactical mastermind?

[FlawedParadigm]

"And you're not the real villain."

Heh. Someone's ego is going to be limping after this. All in all, I think this was the perfect way to deal with Tarquin. (Also, I'd like to express my undying love of Haley. )

So...all hail Haley?

Yep, I'm going away now.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I dunno, I have barely heard about the "Avengers", definitely didn't know about them having that trope, and the Lord of the Rings with its backstory seems to be pretty well-known all over the world

Yes, but The Avengers/Into Darkness/Other Recent Movies seem to fit the term "nowadays" much better than The Lord of the Rings, which was published in 1955 (and the Silmarillion was published in 1973). Also, when those books came out, they didn't spark a new theme of "having the villain kidnapped as part of the plan", whereas recently there has been a lot of movies like that.

[Sir_Leorik]

Spoiler: More stuff about that book

Show

Was the ending of the Lord of the Rings Deus Ex Machina? I'm not talking about the eagles, I'm talking about the fate of the Ring itself. Frodo went crazy at the last moment, and Sam couldn't prevent it. It was Gollum, the antagonist, who dropped the Ring down. Was it not a direct result of the heroes' actions? Were these actions meaningless? No, because the only reason Gollum dropped the ring was that they were above the fiery pit, and the heroes did their job of bringing it there. The same.

Yeah, the "unconventional" ending I described actually mimicked the ending of the LotR. Well, it wasn't the same convention as the OotS employs... and it wasn't a convention because such an ending is pretty difficult to set up and play right, unlike the "final confrontation at the great height with the villain falling down", so it never became widely used.

Spoiler: Lord of the Rings

Show

Regarding LotR: Frodo's decision not to kill Gollum is ultimately repaid by Gollum saving Frodo from the Ring's control. Gollum bites the Ring off Frodo's finger, and then falls to his death. But if Frodo hadn't taken pity on Gollum, and spared his life, the same way Bilbo had done in "The Hobbit", there would have been no one around to destroy the Ring. In that regards, it isn't really a Deus ex Machina.

The real "unconventional" part of the ending to LotR is that the Hobbits return to the Shire to discover that Saruman has fled there with Grima Wyrmtongue, and they have corrupted Baggend. This is a rather bittersweet ending to the grand quest, showing that the War impacted the Shire as well, and that it wouldn't be the same again. (It's an allegory of Tolkien's views on how life in rural England changed in the early 20th century.)

I dunno, I have barely heard about the "Avengers", definitely didn't know about them having that trope, and the Lord of the Rings with its backstory seems to be pretty well-known all over the world

Tom Hiddleston vs. Scarlett Johansen. Nuff said True Believer! Excelsior!

[FlawedParadigm]

-snip-
Yes, they are, in fact (and where would you draw the line between the device and the basic storytelling method?). But there are different sorts of them.

Everything on this page works for one purpose: the proper ending of this storyline. We don't see anyone or anything on the page that would serve any other purpose. We don't even see V who has been in the previous strip; including vir and Blackwing in some broad shot would establish continuity, but it wouldn't contribute to The Great Ending Of Tarquin's Story, so it wasn't there. We don't see anything about what's going to happen next, no worldbuilding, no character development for anyone but Tarquin and Elan, even Haley is reduced to a karma-rrific plot device.

The previous strip, Caster Fight, was all about the personalities' clash. All its jokes, all its awesome was built out of blocks prepared by this very story. I wouldn't dare say it's unique, but it's designed to be. It runs on V's personality and backstory, Laurin's implied backstory that ignited the whole thread about elves/humans relationship on the continent, on Blackwing's love of shiny baubles and referencing memes ("Bird to the face!"). It was all sorts of awesome, but all sorts of OotS-specific awesome.

This one? The only thing that makes it OotS-specific, besides the fact it was posted as part of its continuity, is the fact that Tarquin's thwarted plan was not of world domination, but of taking over the narrative. It was fully built out of blocks provided by the history of literature. This scene has, with a slight variation, happened before in this very comic, which was lampshaded by Elan. It employs every trick in the book just to convey the sense of closure, to tug at our emotional strings. What actually happens in it plot-wise is that Tarquin falls over the ledge which was absolutely predictable and logical. But it's three pages long, and these three pages are dedicated to employing all tropes that could possibly be relevant to this situation as the ending of the plotline. All right, ALL tropes might be a slight exaggeration, given that a lot of ending tropes are contradictory... but Rich did his best to cram as many of them as possible into one little scene: Tarquin falling down after having lost the fight (the losing itself happened in the previous strip).


The previous strip didn't exactly ignore or defy storytelling conventions, it just wasn't dependent on them. This one... it runs on them. On the cliched cliches from the cliched stories that work here awesomely because Rich is _that_ good and because it's the perfect irony of Tarquin _not_seeing_ them.


I guess what Rich tried to show here is that while the stories and tropes can be exploited and used in a bad way, they are not bad themselves. Tarquin noticed that the villain's loss can, from some perspective, not be seen as a loss; and yet he still lost from this very perspective, despite being a part of the very genre he wanted to hijack. A Tarquin-ish villain would be extremely inappropriate, silly and only fit for a madhouse in a story like one I mentioned that was about politics, but in a setting where his view of the world was actually valid? He still lost, because that villains lose as soon as they confront the heroes, no matter how genre savvy they are, is how this genre works.

-trim-

See, the reason I don't have to post much is people like Liliet exist to express nearly everything I want or need to.

[Liliet]

Yes, but The Avengers/Into Darkness/Other Recent Movies seem to fit the term "nowadays" much better than The Lord of the Rings, which was published in 1955 (and the Silmarillion was published in 1973). Also, when those books came out, they didn't spark a new theme of "having the villain kidnapped as part of the plan", whereas recently there has been a lot of movies like that.

All right, I'm not an expert on movies. Actually, I was just trying to say that given the degree of popularity of this plot, it's probably impossible to pinpoint what exactly it's a shout out to. It's a shout out to a trope.

[Liliet]

Spoiler: Lord of the Rings

Show

Regarding LotR: Frodo's decision not to kill Gollum is ultimately repaid by Gollum saving Frodo from the Ring's control. Gollum bites the Ring off Frodo's finger, and then falls to his death. But if Frodo hadn't taken pity on Gollum, and spared his life, the same way Bilbo had done in "The Hobbit", there would have been no one around to destroy the Ring. In that regards, it isn't really a Deus ex Machina.

The real "unconventional" part of the ending to LotR is that the Hobbits return to the Shire to discover that Saruman has fled there with Grima Wyrmtongue, and they have corrupted Baggend. This is a rather bittersweet ending to the grand quest, showing that the War impacted the Shire as well, and that it wouldn't be the same again. (It's an allegory of Tolkien's views on how life in rural England changed in the early 20th century.)

Tom Hiddleston vs. Scarlett Johansen. Nuff said True Believer! Excelsior!

Spoiler: Stuff absolutely irrelevant to OotS

Show

I know, right? It wasn't me who said that the resolution not being produced directly by heroes was Deus Ex Machina.

And the Shire resolution was awesome. But Frodo having to depart with the elves later was just so sad )=

Generally, I don't mind the general writers' populace not jumping on the bandwagon and making all endings like that. But that one who did? She's awesome. Even though she left out "how rural England has changed and will never be the same again" part.

See, the reason I don't have to post much is people like Liliet exist to express nearly everything I want or need to.

I'd sig this, but I'm out of place already... let's say I'm humble

Anyway, thanks!

[FlawedParadigm]

I'd sig this, but I'm out of place already... let's say I'm humble

Anyway, thanks!

For whatever it's worth, I rather suspected you might want to. So I specifically avoided appending "except maybe jokes" to the end of it, because I think I make or want to make jokes you don't or wouldn't, but just before I hit enter I thought you might want to sig it, so I took that part off.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

All right, I'm not an expert on movies. Actually, I was just trying to say that given the degree of popularity of this plot, it's probably impossible to pinpoint what exactly it's a shout out to. It's a shout out to a trope.

All right, I see your point. Sorry, I tend to pay too much attention to details like that.