OOTS #914 - The Discussion Thread

[NerdyKris]

Agreed. I'm a little confused that anyone would say this isn't "advancing the plot". I'd say it's advancing Elan's plot pretty darn far.

Like the Giant's said in the past, this is a character drama, not a "get to plot point A, then B, then C" story.

[Porthos]

BTW, I knew, I KNEW, someone was going to nitpick the "no one ever loved Nale" line. But:

A) I wanted to remind readers that Tarquin doesn't realize the depth of affection that Sabine held for Nale.

B) I didn't want to have to spend the time rewording my post to make 1000%* accurate over what I saw as a minor detail compared to the overall point I wanted to make about Tarquin's blatant invoking of a narrative trope.

and

C) Realizing all of this that's why I added the disclaimer in the first place.

Guess the disclaimer wasn't strong enuf for everyone.

* NOTE: Irony. I realize this. That's the joke.

[Lissou]

At first when I saw how Elan was standing up for Nale, I wondered if Sabine was going to side with the OotS against Tarquin, now, after seeing Elan being the only other person grieving Nale. Then on the last panel, first thing I saw was the destroyed TV, meaning she probably didn't get to see Elan's reaction at all.
Of course she might have only raged once he was vaporized, in which case she saw a bit of it, but it's ambiguous.

Either way, I'm glad her reaction was addressed right away, after the last strip she's the first person I thought of. This being said, now I think she'll probably be mostly interested in getting her revenge on Tarquin, which could mean anything from her being mostly out of the strip to her being even more involved against the heroes, since Tarquin said what the OotS was going to do would benefit him as well. Plus, they didn't save Nale. I'm not saying they could have, but that it's realistic to blame people who were there and did nothing when you wish you had been there and done something.

[The Pilgrim]

WWBS? (What would Belkar say?) :

Originally Posted by zyxophoj
I am shocked and appalled.

Disintegration? Without first relieving Nale's corpse of any magic items?

As a former adventurer, Laurin should be ashamed of herself.

Specially since Nale must have a wand of Enervation around there. That's probably worth at least 21,000 gp.

For a man who cares about the price of an ordinary spear, that's an unacceptable waste of resources.

[Orange Knight]

Wow, for all the philosophising in the last discussion, over feeling sorry and doing "what he had to do", Tarquin comes off as a real git here. Then I remembered there's likely a LOT of defence mechanism going on here too.
Sabine's reaction was priceless, and spells bad news/drama ahead. This is good.

[Porthos]

Really?...

That's not completely sad though, more bittersweet. After all, Roy feels joy at finally being able to play with his younger brother again. I certainly took it in a bittersweet sort of way when I first saw it.

[SavageWombat]

What if Tarquin is being deliberately genre blind because everyone knows the evil sociopath doesn't understand the power of love?

Similar to how Elan knew Nale was dead because everyone assumes that someone's dead even if they know they won't be.

[F.Harr]

I'd thought it was to end the speculation about when Nale was coming back.

[Porthos]

What if Tarquin is being deliberately genre blind because everyone knows the evil sociopath doesn't understand the power of love?

Similar to how Elan knew Nale was dead because everyone assumes that someone's dead even if they know they won't be.

But Tarquin's love of tropes would force him to lampshade such a notion.

Tarquin can't have it both ways here. He can't claim to let the audience think he is being an emotionless heel while really being choked up about it while simultaneously cashing in on the fact that he constantly lets the world know just what tropes he is applying.

To put it another way: Sometimes a cigar is in fact just a cigar.

[Amphiox]

It could be argued that Nale should have been Elan's responsibility

Why? Elan has had no role in making Nale what he is. It was Nale who made himself to be his brother's rival. Elan is not obligated to reciprocate.

And even from a narrative point of view, Nale being Elan's rival doesn't mean that Elan HAS to be the one responsible for stopping Nale, only that he could be the one.

Elan is not required to be his brother's keeper.

Indeed, from a narrative structure point of view, it could be argued that Elan should be instrumental in the fall of ONE of Tarquin OR Nale, but not both. To have both would make the second anti-climactic. In the standard dynamic of multi-pronged familial dysfunction, the resolution most commonly involves the good side (which is usually the singular) taking out ONE element of the evil side, the last element, while all the other elements resolve themselves in another fashion prior to this, usually through internecine elimination.

In other words, the Elan's Family arc is set up to resolve through Tarquin and Nale attritioning until one is left standing, and Elan deals with that last one.

We now know that it will be Tarquin, and not Nale.

[Shining Wrath]

I would bet a lot that the blood in Tarquin's dagger will have some relevance. However, it most likely won't bring Nale back.

This are my guesses, some of them might happen or more than one:
-Tarquin stores the dagger away or looks at it and sights. He keeps the possibility of seeing his son again at hand but realizes it is foolish
-Sabine tries to get it to res Nale
-Haley already took it.
-Tarquin, outside the view of Laurin, gives Elan the dagger. "do with it as you see fit". This will probably not happen but I like to dream it.
-Someone (Sabine) brings up the fact that Nale is still got a rope on this world in Tarquin's dagger. As he listens to this, Tarquin wipes it and burns it. That way the Giant says to us "You are reading way to much into the blood comment" or "HA! The blood comment was a red herring"

I agree with you that Sabine might try to steal the dagger, whether the blood is useful or not. All that is required is that she thinks it is useful.

[ThePhantasm]

I always find it funny whenever a new comic comes out and someone who has no idea where the plot is going says "I think this didn't advance the plot, but was just killing time."

[Amphiox]

Malack clearly suffered from the full +8 vampire LA, though, given his comments. (Although, counterpoint, Xykon doesn't seem to have many problems with his theoretical +5 LA.)

Xykon would surely suffer for it if he ever had to face an opponent equal in level to himself+4/5.

But such opponents do not appear to exist in the OotS world.

[sengmeng]

That's not completely sad though, more bittersweet. After all, Roy feels joy at finally being able to play with his younger brother again. I certainly took it in a bittersweet sort of way when I first saw it.

Potato, potahto. Nale's death isn't completely sad, either. Not even 50%.

Roy's reunion with his little brother happens because they're both dead. Nale is missed because good twins miss their brothers, no matter what.

[halfeye]

As for his paramour, "Hell hath no fury..."

... like a woman scorned.

So far this is the second time I've seen that quote (at this point I'm at two pages out of at least ten), and whatever else she may be, scorned isn't even close. I do wonder what Sabine will do, and there's no doubt a lot of potential there, but scorned (as in, "I prefer (<other woman>, OR <something else>) over you"), she isn't.

[Sir_Leorik]

I always find it funny whenever a new comic comes out and someone who has no idea where the plot is going says "I think this didn't advance the plot, but was just killing time."

What makes it funnier is that strip # 914 not only advances Elan's character growth arc, it advances Sabine's character development, points out that V is still trapped in Director Lee's "office" in the Nine Hells, and it allows the Giant to reiterate some of the basic themes of the comic while doing so! You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make a leopard change his shorts.

[F.Harr]

Talk about a Pratchet mixed metiphor.

I approve. :)

[Amphiox]

She could theoretically be LN like Kilkil, if one considered an evil stability to be a lesser evil than constantly-churning war. I'd say "not enough evidence to judge" yet.

In the flashbacks involving TT, Laurin has consistently been the most passive character, and the one seen doing the least outright evil.

Of course, being a psion, who knows what she could be doing behind that passive face. She could be busy mind-raping babies and we'd never notice....

Still, it is certainly possible that she could be the least evil of Tarquin's Team.

[Axl_Rose]

**** just got real.

[Amphiox]

To everyone just now realizing that Tarquin is a heartless and evil man, welcome to the party. Apparently 20 foot tall flaming letters wasn't enough.

Evil for sure. Heartless? I wouldn't say so. I think we've seen plenty of evidence that Tarquin has a heart. But he has chosen to subordinate his heart to his evilness.

[Canuck617]

I don't always sift through 12 or so pages of forum to make sure something hasn't been said already, but when I do, I make damn sure that it's something that everyone has missed that seems to be some major point of discussion.

People keep saying that blood on Tarquin's dagger can be used to res Nale... but check out the dagger in 913. I don't see a single drop of blood on it, do you?

You folks didn't look at that comic closely enough. Bottom row: Tarquin is holding the knife, Nale is falling, eyes are circles. Last panel, eyes are X's, Nale is dead.

Nothing on the knife was part of Nale's body when he died.

Two things:
1) We do not see any blood on the knife. Period. Look for yourself in 913. It's not on the blade. To that end, someone posted...

We also don't see rings on characters until it's convenient, though.

I don't think this is a motif for The Giant. If he wants something seen, and he can draw it, I'm pretty sure he draws it, especially these days, like Z's Haley's wands, Nale's shaved goatee, Haley's arrows, shadows, and probably some others I can't think of. Rings, specifically, are an example of something I think he omits simply to preserve the style of the comic, even if we know they're there. As such, I don't buy the blood behind the blade theory.

2) No one's said it, so as far as I can tell, no one's seen it, but the hilt is red. I think that's where this whole confusion of blood on the blade came from. Again, THE HILT IS RED, NOT THE BLADE!!

Stay thirsty, my friends.

[Amphiox]

I wonder if Laurin's "eye for an eye" thing was a very subtle nod to the forums to stop speculation that Nale is coming back.

It is also a pretty firm confirmation that Malack's not coming back, and TT has no uber-secret super contingency for bringing him back, or else Laurin would have known.

[Sir_Leorik]

It could be argued that Nale should have been Elan's responsibility

Why? Elan has had no role in making Nale what he is. It was Nale who made himself to be his brother's rival. Elan is not obligated to reciprocate.

And even from a narrative point of view, Nale being Elan's rival doesn't mean that Elan HAS to be the one responsible for stopping Nale, only that he could be the one.

Elan is not required to be his brother's keeper.

Both times that the OotS defeated Nale previously, Roy or Elan took steps to make sure Nale, Thog (and later Sabine) were properly incarcerated. Nale and Thog would not have been able to escape the first time without Sabine's help; the trio only escaped Azure City because of Tsukiko's Shout spell damaging the prison. In both cases, Elan did everything he could to defeat Nale, and then relied on the Lawful Authorities to their job. In both cases they royally botched it. (And that's not even getting into the amount of gross incompetence on the part of the Cliffport PD. They're lucky Elan never sued them for false imprisonment!)

Elan is not required by the tenets of his Chaotic Good Alignment to micromanage Nale's actions; he is required to stop Nale from committing Evil, if he can. He does not have to personally keep Nale locked up forever, nor does he have to commit an Evil act like fratricide.

[Amphiox]

To you, and to anyone still stubborn enough to believe this, read my lips:

Nale. Is. Not. Coming. Back.

Come on, that was even explicitely stated in this strip. Let go of your denial, it won't lead you anywhere.

He is an EX-evil opposite.

Nale was nailed by not-Nale. Not-Nale, not Nale, nailed Nale with not-nail.

[Sir_Leorik]

Talk about a Pratchet mixed metiphor.

I approve. :)

I think Nanny Ogg would approve of the way you spelled "metaphor". (Though I think she's confused it with "simile", which she's confused with something exceptionally naughty. )

[wolfdreams01]

I would bet a lot that the blood in Tarquin's dagger will have some relevance. However, it most likely won't bring Nale back.

This are my guesses, some of them might happen or more than one:
-Tarquin stores the dagger away or looks at it and sights. He keeps the possibility of seeing his son again at hand but realizes it is foolish
-Sabine tries to get it to res Nale
-Haley already took it.
-Tarquin, outside the view of Laurin, gives Elan the dagger. "do with it as you see fit". This will probably not happen but I like to dream it.
-Someone (Sabine) brings up the fact that Nale is still got a rope on this world in Tarquin's dagger. As he listens to this, Tarquin wipes it and burns it. That way the Giant says to us "You are reading way to much into the blood comment" or "HA! The blood comment was a red herring"

I realize that this probably won't happen, but one thing I think Tarquin could do if he really wanted to be a d**k (while at the same time relentlessly hammering his point home) is wait till Laurin is gone, then privately give the bloody dagger to Elan - in front of the rest of the party - saying "Hey, if you desperately want Nale alive so much, this blood ought to let you resurrect him. Of course, you realize that he'll just try to kill you and all your friends again. If you raise him and he ends up slaughtering your lovely girlfriend, just remember that it's on YOU, not me."

I think that would be an awesome piece of psychological jiujitsu (while at the same time forcing Elan to "grow up" and accept that sometimes he needs to make difficult choices). There's no way Elan will ever get to resurrect Nale (he might WANT to, but Haley and the rest of the Order will quickly talk him out of it - and there's no way Durkula would ever agree)... but even though Tarquin knows this, making the offer would make Tarquin appear reasonable and forces Elan to accept that Nale belongs dead. After all, it's hard to whine about your twin brother being dead when you have the means to bring him back but aren't doing it. >:-)

[Giggling Ghast]

"Last Nale in the coffin." Heh. Can't believe I missed that.

[gerryq]

I haven't read anything on this thread, but I will say: disappointed a little. Too much breakage of the fourth wall. Not enough action from the characters that have been constructed. I have never said this before, no matter which way the Giant has chosen to go. It's been so great, don't go down a wrong path. Take the characters wherever they must go, and work them into the story. They will fit, whatever they have to do.

[KillianHawkeye]

I wonder if the IFCC's TV being broken will have any effect on the plot whatsoever? They have--however temporarily--lost the ability to watch the material plane.

[Amphiox]

Both times that the OotS defeated Nale previously, Roy or Elan took steps to make sure Nale, Thog (and later Sabine) were properly incarcerated. Nale and Thog would not have been able to escape the first time without Sabine's help; the trio only escaped Azure City because of Tsukiko's Shout spell damaging the prison. In both cases, Elan did everything he could to defeat Nale, and then relied on the Lawful Authorities to their job. In both cases they royally botched it. (And that's not even getting into the amount of gross incompetence on the part of the Cliffport PD. They're lucky Elan never sued them for false imprisonment!)

Elan is not required by the tenets of his Chaotic Good Alignment to micromanage Nale's actions; he is required to stop Nale from committing Evil, if he can. He does not have to personally keep Nale locked up forever, nor does he have to commit an Evil act like fratricide.

The extent of Elan's responsibility ends with defeating Nale (when Nale provoked the conflict) and turning him over to lawful Good authorities. Elan is not responsible for the competency of said authorities in the execution of their duties with respect to holding Nale. And indeed, the Azure City authorities probably WERE competent to hold Nale, if it were not for the small detail of them getting destroyed by Xykon and Redcloak.

Nobody could, if I get the Giant's intentions correct, but the gist is that he feels that True Rez is a messy spell in terms of plot development, which likely means he won't be using it in OOTS-verse.

True Rez is the kind of thing you put into a game rather than a non-interactive narrative. If you do include it in a narrative, it has to be a once-in-a-lifetime-almost-impossible-to-obtain-McGuffin. So for example you could make it a lost art, long forgotten, with a single artifact, created by a long dead God, charged with a single casting (after which it will crumble into dust) hidden in the depths of a vast labyrinth, guarded by mighty sigils and mind-boggling illusions, the most powerful monsters imaginable, and the honor of a tribe of undead Paladins. The focus of the narrative would be the PC's desperate attempt to retrieve that artifact for a single casting on a lost loved one.

And typically, these narratives end with the PC's failure, at which point the moral of the story becomes the necessity for accepting the finality of death and loss.

BUT, the one place where a narrative-breaking ability CAN be used safely in any narrative is at the end, in the denouement, when the narrative is over. So for example, we could have Durkon (he'd probably have to have his vampirism reversed at some point for this to happen), as a result of the experience gained in the final battle to beat Xykon, gaining his 17th Level and earning access to True Rez. He could then, perhaps, cast it on Nale for Elan's sake, in the final panels that wrap up Elan and Haley's narrative arc.