Why are Monks considered so bad?

[Deaxsa]

Basically, I'm just curious. Why are Monks considered so bad? I've always thought of them as being relatively offensively powerful, and defensively strong (in particular with regards to saves).

In particular, a monk with the TWF feat chain and a bit of liberal interpretation of the rules could get... a whooole lot of attacks in a round.

Also, while monks do require only using Charisma or Intelligence as a dump stat, nothing else, the fact that they scale relatively well with 4 stats means that, well, they scale well with 4 stats.

I'm just a bit at a loss as to why they are considered such a poor choice. I've only been on the forums for about a day, but I've already seen a bunch of stuff bashing monks.

[flare'90]

Could this question wait a few hours?

It's not already Monkday.

[limejuicepowder]

Please don't start this thread again....is it that time of the week?

Prediction: the next 40 or so posts are going to say the following
-MADness
-low BaB, hit points for a melee'r
-conflicting class abilities (fast movement and flurry)
-much harder to scale damage
-expensive item support

At some point, a noble monk defender will show up and the thread will then become a monk argument for another 10 pages.

[Answerer]

A fairly thorough of the Monk's problems, what (little) you can do about them, and suggestions for alternatives. Doesn't get into most Alternate Class Features; only really notable because that means it doesn't acknowledge Wild Monk. Also, mentioned MAD but doesn't really expound on the point, which is odd because it's one of the biggest problems with the class. But still, goes through every class feature and explains the problems.

Summary:

• The best Monk features are all obtained by Monk 2, giving very little reason to stay in the class.
• The signature Monk feature, Unarmed Strike, is fairly poor. They're harder to improve than weapon attacks, scale extremely slowly, etc.
• Flurry of Blows requires that a Monk not move (bad since he's got low HD and can't wear armor), gives him a penalty (bad since he's got mediocre BAB), and gives him an extra attack (which isn't nearly as good as it could be because he doesn't have bonus damage).
• Fast Movement cannot be used at the same time as Flurry of Blows.
• The Bonus AC is generally worse than just wearing armor, particularly for a Monk who already needs Str, Dex, and Con.
• Almost all of the rest of the Monk's features are really weak, really limited, or both.
  
  • Special mention: Slow Fall is honestly insulting.

The only major exceptions are the bonus feats (which are sometimes better than the Fighter's but not usually) and kinda-sorta Evasion.

[Elderand]

Please don't start this thread again....is it that time of the week?

Prediction: the next 40 or so posts are going to say the following
-MADness
-low BaB, hit points for a melee'r
-conflicting class abilities (fast movement and flurry)
-much harder to scale damage
-expensive item support

At some point, a noble monk defender will show up and the thread will then become a monk argument for another 10 pages.

You forgot class abilities that do the same thing the wizard did but a few level later and do it worse

[Eldariel]

Check this thread.

[Dusk Eclipse]

A fairly thorough of the Monk's problems, what (little) you can do about them, and suggestions for alternatives. Doesn't get into most Alternate Class Features; only really notable because that means it doesn't acknowledge Wild Monk. Also, mentioned MAD but doesn't really expound on the point, which is odd because it's one of the biggest problems with the class. But still, goes through every class feature and explains the problems.

Summary:

• The best Monk features are all obtained by Monk 2, giving very little reason to stay in the class.
• The signature Monk feature, Unarmed Strike, is fairly poor. They're harder to improve than weapon attacks, scale extremely slowly, etc.
• Flurry of Blows requires that a Monk not move (bad since he's got low HD and can't wear armor), gives him a penalty (bad since he's got mediocre BAB), and gives him an extra attack (which isn't nearly as good as it could be because he doesn't have bonus damage).
• Fast Movement cannot be used at the same time as Flurry of Blows.
• The Bonus AC is generally worse than just wearing armor, particularly for a Monk who already needs Str, Dex, and Con.
• Almost all of the rest of the Monk's features are really weak, really limited, or both.
  
  • Special mention: Slow Fall is honestly insulting.

The only major exceptions are the bonus feats (which are sometimes better than the Fighter's but not usually) and kinda-sorta Evasion.

Wait, you are telling me there are monks that don't take Invisible fist?

[Juntao112]

In particular, a monk with the TWF feat chain and a bit of liberal interpretation of the rules could miss... a whooole lot of attacks in a round.

Fixed it for you.

[Flickerdart]

In particular, a monk with the TWF feat chain and a bit of liberal interpretation of the rules could get... a whooole lot of attacks in a round.

-2 from Flurry, -2 from TWF, medium BAB, MADness = all of those attacks miss. And then whatever you were attacking eats your puny d8 hit dice butt alive.

[Tvtyrant]

-2 from Flurry, -2 from TWF, medium BAB, MADness = all of those attacks miss. And then whatever you were attacking eats your puny d8 hit dice butt alive.

Well there is always the "flurry of bad trip attempts route" using Quick Draw and a bunch of staffs to drop on the tremendous number of failed attempts. Eventually the opponent will roll a one right?

[Flickerdart]

Well there is always the "flurry of bad trip attempts route" using Quick Draw and a bunch of staffs to drop on the tremendous number of failed attempts. Eventually the opponent will roll a one right?

Rolling a one doesn't mean a failure on an opposed roll. Plus, you can only trip something that's max one size bigger than you, so that strategy is going to become useless very quickly.

[silverwolfer]

awww no swordsage yet?

[White_Drake]

We're already ahead of schedule, and ToB isn't for another two days.

[MukkTB]

Is it Monkday already? You know those anime where some guy is about to fight a bunch of mooks and he says, "You cannot beat me! I know the secret Dragon Melon Golden Rocket fighting style!!!" The mooks ignore him and fight wereupon he owns them. The mooks are monks and that guy is an unarmed swordsage.

Then some big bad comes along. He declares he knows the secret lotus touch, and casts hold person on our hero, rendering him useless.

[Flickerdart]

Then some big bad comes along. He declares he knows the secret lotus touch, and casts hold person on our hero, rendering him useless.

Fortunately, a Monk 1/Warblade 19 uses Iron Heart Surge to end the Monk character class, and the day is saved.

[Popertop]

Fortunately, a Monk 1/Warblade 19 uses Iron Heart Surge to end the Monk character class, and the day is saved.

Oh wow, this is gold.


In all seriousness, I like monks.

I just hate how the designers don't.

Like, honestly, by the time you read the ambiguity regarding flurrying while two weapon fighting, it's pretty clear they didn't know what the hell they were doing.

[lsfreak]

Fortunately, a Monk 1/Warblade 19 uses Iron Heart Surge to end the Monk character class, and the day is saved.

This is amazing.

Something that may be worth pointing out is that Monk 2 tends to be pretty good - because, as already said, monks get pretty much everything they can do by 2nd level. This makes them very good for getting free feats and some other goodies, but only on a chassis that is already good (i.e. not-monk). And, obviously, something that actually benefits from the 2-level dip.

I'll contest that they scale "well" with four stats. Swordsages scale well with Wisdom - it gives them Will saves, AC bonuses, and damage bonuses out-of-the-box, no feats needed. Two-handers scale well with Strength because of it's ramped-up value, both in terms of straight extra damage and the added power attacking you can do with the higher attack bonus. Monks benefit from a lot of stats, but they don't scale well with them - they scale exactly like everyone else with them (except Wisdom). Even taking it as a given that they do scale well with four stats, D&D is a game that rewards specialization and, by extension, punishes jacks-of-all-trades.

[Starbuck_II]

Oh wow, this is gold.


In all seriousness, I like monks.

I just hate how the designers don't.

Like, honestly, by the time you read the ambiguity regarding flurrying while two weapon fighting, it's pretty clear they didn't know what the hell they were doing.

I hear the 4E Monk isn't bad, we just need someone to convert 4E version to 3.5 and keep the good.

[silverwolfer]

what about the at will invisibilty monk ACF from one of the evil books


you can now atleast not see the problem now.

[GreenSerpent]

That's not at-will. You need to spend a Stunning Fist use I think.

I usually for my games port over the Pathfinder Monk and give them the special ability of the Zen Archer archetype instead of Stunning Fist (means they get to roll multiple times on each attack and use the highest for attack, second for crit confirm if it threatens). I also give them a scaling bonus to Jump, Climb, Tumble and Balance (possibly others as well) equal to 4 x Monk level. Boosts them up a fair bit.

[Certified]

As a fan of the Monk, do people see the same issues with Pathfinder's version?

[lsfreak]

That's not at-will. You need to spend a Stunning Fist use I think.

Actually it's just a flat once every 3 rounds, as an immediate action. Replaces evasion. Since it's not based on the spell, it doesn't break on damage - only at the end of the round or if dispelled. Easily one of the most useful things you can get out of a Monk 2 dip for a rogue-type.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Invisible fist is at will every three rounds.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

As a fan of the Monk, do people see the same issues with Pathfinder's version?

Broadly speaking, yes. There are some interesting options with the Archetypes and ACFs, but generally speaking the PF Monk doesn't fix the fundamental issues of the 3.5 Monk.

[Tvtyrant]

Rolling a one doesn't mean a failure on an opposed roll. Plus, you can only trip something that's max one size bigger than you, so that strategy is going to become useless very quickly.

That is what permanent Enlarge Person is for. Besides which, a lot of monsters are medium or large all the way up to CR 20.

[Flickerdart]

Something that may be worth pointing out is that Monk 2 tends to be pretty good - because, as already said, monks get pretty much everything they can do by 2nd level. This makes them very good for getting free feats and some other goodies, but only on a chassis that is already good (i.e. not-monk). And, obviously, something that actually benefits from the 2-level dip.

I'd argue that Monk may be as long as six levels - Holy Strike is pretty nice, Resistant Body isn't bad, Prayerful Meditation helps against pretty much everything you're likely to fight, and the 6th level bonus from Passive Way is considerable. Of course, you will notice that every single one of these is an ACF, so YMMV.

[Dienekes]

As a fan of the Monk, do people see the same issues with Pathfinder's version?

Generic monk? Yeah pretty much, I think it might half fix a thing or two but still not very well. Qinggong Monk is supposed to be pretty good.

[thethird]

It is at will (1 every 3 rounds though)

swordsa monk'd note to self check the thread before posting

[Greenish]

Since it's not based on the spell, it doesn't break on damage - only at the end of the round or if dispelled.

Not at the end of the round. 1 round duration means it ends on the next round at the same initiative count.


Pathfinder monk has some new issues, too, like rulings that Imp. Natural Attack doesn't work with it, or the TWF confusion thingy.

Not to mention that PF Vow of Poverty is both explicitly a monk option (because it apparently wasn't trap enough) and even worse than 3.5 version (ditto).

[Doxkid]

Monks work wonderfully! For monsters.

It's great for when you want a tough fight with a high power, high HP, hard to kill monster, but don't want that monster using magic to 1shot everyone in the party. It also allows you to quickly boost a monster into an appropriate CR encounter without massive gear.