System selection

[DeTess]

Hey all. I'm currently in the process of preparing for a game I'll be running sometime in the next year or two, and I could sue some insight on a fairly basic. Namely that of which system to run.

So, some background. The game is inspired by, among other things, a bunch of korean webtoons I've been reading which all share the basic premise of 'normal earth, but then suddenly magic and extradimensional dungeons pop up, what now?' The game will be a mix of dungeon crawling and mystery solving, with a bit of politics related to the world outside of the dungeons if the players are interested in that side of things.

I am planning on running the first session in fate accelerated before mostly pivoting to a different system when the players awaken to their supernatural powers.

Which brings me to the question of which system to use. I was/am planning on running DnD 5e with a lot of homebrew added in, but I'm also of the opinion one shouldn't jam a round peg into a hexagonal hole if there's a perfectly fine hexagonal peg available.

These are the reasons why I was thinking of DnD 5e in the first place, and any alternative should match these strengths, if possible.

• reasonably crunchy, but without having to do a lot of math before every roll (unlike, say DnD 3.5 or PF1e where there are lots of little bonuses you need to track).
• decent power curve: You go from fairly week to very powerful, which fits the vibe of the game I'm going for.
• tactical combat: speaks for itself, I like running combat with a battlemap and terrain and positioning playing a role.

The main weaknesses that the alternative system should fix is this:

• simple martials: a lot of the players in my group like martial characters in concept, but also want to have lots of different options in combat, like casters do. An alternative system should significantly up the choices for martials in combat, ideally also adding options for supernatural attacks (suddenly flaming swords, holy smites, etc.) and the like. DnD 3.5's 'tome of battle' supplement is a good example of what I'm looking for.
• simple weapons: extending on the above, but the weapon system in DnD 5e is a bit too simple. Damage type from weapons rarely matter outside of a few specific enemies, resulting in a lot of weapons being very samey in practice. An alternative system adding at least a bit more differentiation between a longsword, battle axe and warhammer for example would be nice.

In addition, a longer and/or more granular resting cycle would be nice for pacing reasons. If running DnD 5e I'd simply screw the duration of long rests up to a week (with full hit-dice recovery), maybe add a kind of 'intermediate rest' with partial resource recovery with the 8 hour duration, but a system that has a more interesting system for resting and downtime would definitely be a pro.

[Unoriginal]

Hey all. I'm currently in the process of preparing for a game I'll be running sometime in the next year or two, and I could sue some insight on a fairly basic. Namely that of which system to run.

So, some background. The game is inspired by, among other things, a bunch of korean webtoons I've been reading which all share the basic premise of 'normal earth, but then suddenly magic and extradimensional dungeons pop up, what now?' The game will be a mix of dungeon crawling and mystery solving, with a bit of politics related to the world outside of the dungeons if the players are interested in that side of things.

I am planning on running the first session in fate accelerated before mostly pivoting to a different system when the players awaken to their supernatural powers.

Which brings me to the question of which system to use. I was/am planning on running DnD 5e with a lot of homebrew added in, but I'm also of the opinion one shouldn't jam a round peg into a hexagonal hole if there's a perfectly fine hexagonal peg available.

These are the reasons why I was thinking of DnD 5e in the first place, and any alternative should match these strengths, if possible.

• reasonably crunchy, but without having to do a lot of math before every roll (unlike, say DnD 3.5 or PF1e where there are lots of little bonuses you need to track).
• decent power curve: You go from fairly week to very powerful, which fits the vibe of the game I'm going for.
• tactical combat: speaks for itself, I like running combat with a battlemap and terrain and positioning playing a role.

The main weaknesses that the alternative system should fix is this:

• simple martials: a lot of the players in my group like martial characters in concept, but also want to have lots of different options in combat, like casters do. An alternative system should significantly up the choices for martials in combat, ideally also adding options for supernatural attacks (suddenly flaming swords, holy smites, etc.) and the like. DnD 3.5's 'tome of battle' supplement is a good example of what I'm looking for.
• simple weapons: extending on the above, but the weapon system in DnD 5e is a bit too simple. Damage type from weapons rarely matter outside of a few specific enemies, resulting in a lot of weapons being very samey in practice. An alternative system adding at least a bit more differentiation between a longsword, battle axe and warhammer for example would be nice.

In addition, a longer and/or more granular resting cycle would be nice for pacing reasons. If running DnD 5e I'd simply screw the duration of long rests up to a week (with full hit-dice recovery), maybe add a kind of 'intermediate rest' with partial resource recovery with the 8 hour duration, but a system that has a more interesting system for resting and downtime would definitely be a pro.

Maybe GURPS Martial Arts?

[Sure_Is_Dusty]

Hey all. I'm currently in the process of preparing for a game I'll be running sometime in the next year or two, and I could sue some insight on a fairly basic. Namely that of which system to run.

So, some background. The game is inspired by, among other things, a bunch of korean webtoons I've been reading which all share the basic premise of 'normal earth, but then suddenly magic and extradimensional dungeons pop up, what now?' The game will be a mix of dungeon crawling and mystery solving, with a bit of politics related to the world outside of the dungeons if the players are interested in that side of things.

I am planning on running the first session in fate accelerated before mostly pivoting to a different system when the players awaken to their supernatural powers.

Which brings me to the question of which system to use. I was/am planning on running DnD 5e with a lot of homebrew added in, but I'm also of the opinion one shouldn't jam a round peg into a hexagonal hole if there's a perfectly fine hexagonal peg available.

These are the reasons why I was thinking of DnD 5e in the first place, and any alternative should match these strengths, if possible.

• reasonably crunchy, but without having to do a lot of math before every roll (unlike, say DnD 3.5 or PF1e where there are lots of little bonuses you need to track).
• decent power curve: You go from fairly week to very powerful, which fits the vibe of the game I'm going for.
• tactical combat: speaks for itself, I like running combat with a battlemap and terrain and positioning playing a role.

The main weaknesses that the alternative system should fix is this:

• simple martials: a lot of the players in my group like martial characters in concept, but also want to have lots of different options in combat, like casters do. An alternative system should significantly up the choices for martials in combat, ideally also adding options for supernatural attacks (suddenly flaming swords, holy smites, etc.) and the like. DnD 3.5's 'tome of battle' supplement is a good example of what I'm looking for.
• simple weapons: extending on the above, but the weapon system in DnD 5e is a bit too simple. Damage type from weapons rarely matter outside of a few specific enemies, resulting in a lot of weapons being very samey in practice. An alternative system adding at least a bit more differentiation between a longsword, battle axe and warhammer for example would be nice.

In addition, a longer and/or more granular resting cycle would be nice for pacing reasons. If running DnD 5e I'd simply screw the duration of long rests up to a week (with full hit-dice recovery), maybe add a kind of 'intermediate rest' with partial resource recovery with the 8 hour duration, but a system that has a more interesting system for resting and downtime would definitely be a pro.

If you're looking for a game about high powered fantasy heroes, I'd suggest looking at Exalted 3e by Onyx Path. Its systems are heavily based in mythologies from China, Japan and Korea, so it should match up pretty well to material you're using for inspiration. It has a wide variety of martial arts moves for your players to pick up and build their own combat style, with any magical weaponry you give them adding onto those abilities. Plus it has a lot of rules and mechanics for social interactions, building up organizations and crafting magical items.

There are a couple caveats to using Exalted, first of which is that combat is more abstracted than what you'd find in D&D. Positioning only really matters if you abilities require you to be within a certain range of your target, and characters have a lot of easy mobility options. It's not necessarily less tactical, but moving around a grid won't be your biggest obstacle. Second is that the rules for the current edition are pretty hefty. It's not the easiest game to onboard for newcomers, especially if you're new to it yourself. If the core book looks to be too much, there's also Exalted Essence, which takes a lot of the mechanics from Exalted and streamlines them, like Fate Accelerated and Fate Core. Haven't played it so I can't comment on how it feels, but the folks I know who have are excited about it.

[Duff]

The RPG Feng Shui is an oldie but a goodie that captures the feel of Hong Kong action movies pretty well. Most of the Tropes are covered including Fu powers that are clearly supernatural. Takes a little getting used to if all you've played is DnD but has reasonable levels of crunch

Math wise, you do need to track your action points as the count down over the round from (from memory) high tens through to low thirties. You get to doa fair bit in a turn, but some get more than others

[Rynjin]

If you want a more rule-lite approach, consider using Godbound. It can capture a xianxia feel very well while remaining an extremely simple system to learn. It takes the approach of providing a lot of player power, and a lot of player choice, with minimal "fiddly bits".

Combats are tactical and can be brutal, but aren't bogged down in "I gain a +1 to attack rolls" style abilities. Instead it's more like "I spend a point and all my attacks become undodgeable".

It also provides a lot of narrative power, and is honestly much better at that. Narrative powers include the Knowledge Word's "You know everything that has ever been written down" and the Travel Word's "You arrive at your destination before you departed, confounding anyone tracking your movements".

[Gnoman]

Hey all. I'm currently in the process of preparing for a game I'll be running sometime in the next year or two, and I could sue some insight on a fairly basic. Namely that of which system to run.

So, some background. The game is inspired by, among other things, a bunch of korean webtoons I've been reading which all share the basic premise of 'normal earth, but then suddenly magic and extradimensional dungeons pop up, what now?' The game will be a mix of dungeon crawling and mystery solving, with a bit of politics related to the world outside of the dungeons if the players are interested in that side of things.

I am planning on running the first session in fate accelerated before mostly pivoting to a different system when the players awaken to their supernatural powers.

Which brings me to the question of which system to use. I was/am planning on running DnD 5e with a lot of homebrew added in, but I'm also of the opinion one shouldn't jam a round peg into a hexagonal hole if there's a perfectly fine hexagonal peg available.

These are the reasons why I was thinking of DnD 5e in the first place, and any alternative should match these strengths, if possible.

• reasonably crunchy, but without having to do a lot of math before every roll (unlike, say DnD 3.5 or PF1e where there are lots of little bonuses you need to track).
• decent power curve: You go from fairly week to very powerful, which fits the vibe of the game I'm going for.
• tactical combat: speaks for itself, I like running combat with a battlemap and terrain and positioning playing a role.

The main weaknesses that the alternative system should fix is this:

• simple martials: a lot of the players in my group like martial characters in concept, but also want to have lots of different options in combat, like casters do. An alternative system should significantly up the choices for martials in combat, ideally also adding options for supernatural attacks (suddenly flaming swords, holy smites, etc.) and the like. DnD 3.5's 'tome of battle' supplement is a good example of what I'm looking for.
• simple weapons: extending on the above, but the weapon system in DnD 5e is a bit too simple. Damage type from weapons rarely matter outside of a few specific enemies, resulting in a lot of weapons being very samey in practice. An alternative system adding at least a bit more differentiation between a longsword, battle axe and warhammer for example would be nice.

In addition, a longer and/or more granular resting cycle would be nice for pacing reasons. If running DnD 5e I'd simply screw the duration of long rests up to a week (with full hit-dice recovery), maybe add a kind of 'intermediate rest' with partial resource recovery with the 8 hour duration, but a system that has a more interesting system for resting and downtime would definitely be a pro.

Important question - what's "normal earth" here? Classical era? Medieval? Early Modern? 2024?

That matters a great deal for your system choice, because no version of D&D works very well outside of a very specific faux-medieval era or earlier. If you're going for anything later than 1400 or so, you do not want to use D&D.

GURPS has a lot of advantages here - not only does it inherently allow a wide variety of eras but it is also trivial to create any special features you might want using the Innate Attack rules. Not to mention that there's a ton of combat options built into the system. In-play math is usually much less fiddly than D&D's modifiers because much of the system involves opposing skill checks instead of stacking modifiers. (ranged attacks being the exception here). Combat is also brutal, so that using cover and exploiting the battlefield is key - exactly what you want in a very tactical system.

The one area you're likely to find it lacking is the samey weapons, but it is going to be difficult to find a system that doesn't have that, I suspect. Melee weapons are basically a damage type, a reach, and provide a modifier to your basic damage.

[DeTess]

Important question - what's "normal earth" here? Classical era? Medieval? Early Modern? 2024?

That matters a great deal for your system choice, because no version of D&D works very well outside of a very specific faux-medieval era or earlier. If you're going for anything later than 1400 or so, you do not want to use D&D.

So, it will be set during an early 21st century earth, but most of the fighting should happen in these pocket dimensions that resemble a more typical medieval fantasy world, with some kind of effect shutting down or rendering impotent modern weaponry, so I don't need the system to support firearms, grenades and the like.

[Beelzebub1111]

The hero system is a bit dense but it also might be what you are looking for. kind of in the same vein as gurps it's a general system that can be applied to a bunch of different scenarios and can be as lethal or as superheroic as you want.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Import question on the power curve--are you okay with a big jump from "badass normal" to "superhero," or do you prefer a more gradual, continuous growth in power? Systems like Exalted and Godbound can handle the first pretty well, but don't really fit the second.

Another question is how much you care about the noncombat side. How important is social stuff and realm-building going to be? Are your players going to be iterent mercenaries, or are they likely to settle down and start using stuff like Wall of Stone to reshape society?

[DeTess]

Import question on the power curve--are you okay with a big jump from "badass normal" to "superhero," or do you prefer a more gradual, continuous growth in power? Systems like Exalted and Godbound can handle the first pretty well, but don't really fit the second.

Super-hero/demigod should be the top end of the curve, but the curve to get there should be somewhat gradual.

Another question is how much you care about the noncombat side. How important is social stuff and realm-building going to be? Are your players going to be iterent mercenaries, or are they likely to settle down and start using stuff like Wall of Stone to reshape society?

Social stuff is going to be as important as the players make it. There will definitely be stuff happening in that sphere, but the players could ignore it. That would be a little to their detriment (there will be some political forces that will try to use them as pawns, but they could simply try to ignore and push through that which will mean they miss out on resources or support, but also some trouble).

Expected game is that they'll function as mercenaries going into these dungeons to explore them, deal with monsters that could break out and the like.

[Quertus]

"Weapons being very samey" is the one that's got me stuck. 2e D&D and Street Fighter (shudder) have weapons have different initiative modifiers, which is kinda big in both systems, on top of different damage types and different amounts of damage. But I can't really think of any systems where it feels like a whole new game when you pick up a new weapon, the way 1st person shooter video games like Doom or Unreal Tournament have weapons that involve completely different gameplay.

Anybody got a pen & paper RPG where different weapons really feel different?

[gbaji]

The hero system is a bit dense but it also might be what you are looking for. kind of in the same vein as gurps it's a general system that can be applied to a bunch of different scenarios and can be as lethal or as superheroic as you want.

This was going to be my first suggestion as well. The only possible issue is the power curve. Hero system very very well handles the initial "start out normal, then jump to having powers/abilities" bit (almost by design). But power curve via play from that point onward can be hard to manage. It's either "so gradual you barely notice" or "sudden jumps". At least, that's been my experience.

But yeah. All the other stuff it'll handle well. Bit more math stuff getting things going due to nearly endless customization potential (you can take the "samey" default stuff already built for you with no real effort though), but once you're in play, it's actually pretty straightfoward.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Super-hero/demigod should be the top end of the curve, but the curve to get there should be somewhat gradual.

Hmm... Mutants and Masterminds 3e should work. It's phenomenally flexible when it comes to customizing powers, and pretty snappy when it comes to gameplay at the table--kind of like the Hero system, only simpler and smoother. It's a d20 system, so skills are... well, skills, but you can always build powers to augment them.

You'll need to rewrite the "ranks and measures" table that translates abstract ranks like Speed 5 or Strength 10 into real-world units, though. The one in the book scales exponentially, so even a relatively modest score gives you enormous capabilities. (A character with Speed 5 and Strength 10 could move 900ft per round and lift 25 tons, for example). But that's a pretty quick fix that doesn't affect the system's math in any meaningful way.

You'll also notice that the costs of various abilities are based almost entirely on their combat applications. The game assumes that you're superheroes who are going to swoop in, save the day, and move on--things like, say, creating infinite amounts of food and water, or turning random junk into gold, are dirt-cheap. YMMV here; some player cooperation might be required.

If you're interested, I'm happy to discuss further--it's one of my absolute favorite systems.

Anybody got a pen & paper RPG where different weapons really feel different?

That's a hard one, yeah. 3.5e with houserules, maybe? When wielding a given weapon, you can use maneuvers from applicable schools as if you were a Swordsage or Warblade with a level equal to your BAB?

My d20 Exalted monstrosity makes a vague stab in this direction, at least. Damage works the same way as Mutants and Masterminds, and different weapons use different damage dice--blunt weapons deal 1d12, slashing 2d6, and piercing 3d4. Power Attack/Accurate Attack also work by adding or subtracting damage dice, meaning that you've got different incentives. I don't know how much that translates in practice, though; I've only ever been in the the GM's seat during testing.

[Ionathus]

I think you should consider sticking with 5e and just homebrewing to fix the parts you don't like.

While there are likely systems that work better for your world, I don't see 5e having any structural problems, and in fact I think it would make the game much easier to run the way you want to. Not sure about your players, but there is also the undeniable advantage of "they've probably played D&D before".

Adding martial and weapon complexity feels easily doable with homebrew and customized magic weapons. There are tons of guides for making weapon choice more impactful, and once you know what classes your players want to play, you can give them lots of goodies from all the other classes/subclasses. That's one of my favorite homebrewing hacks: want to give the Eldritch Knight more power as bonus rewards? Create a magic item or a storytelling reason to give them Battlemaster maneuvers.

[gbaji]

Oh. Yeah. Valid point.

Sometimes "system you already know, but have to mod a bit to make work" is better than "new system you've never played before, and probably discover along the way you'll need to mod anyway".

So something to consider.

[Ionathus]

Oh. Yeah. Valid point.

Sometimes "system you already know, but have to mod a bit to make work" is better than "new system you've never played before, and probably discover along the way you'll need to mod anyway".

So something to consider.

Absolutely agreed.

Don't get me wrong: I love learning a new system! Playing with entirely new mechanics and throwing out all the old assumptions is fun. But only when it's in service to the kind of game I want to play.

[Beelzebub1111]

Oh. Yeah. Valid point.

Sometimes "system you already know, but have to mod a bit to make work" is better than "new system you've never played before, and probably discover along the way you'll need to mod anyway".

So something to consider.

To counter that. there is also the idea of forcing a square peg in a round hole. you might be able to turn it a way that fits, but you may bend some edges, split some corners, and in the end you end up with a broken hole, a split peg and nowhere near as satisfying an outcome as finding the perfectly slotted shape.

[Ionathus]

To counter that. there is also the idea of forcing a square peg in a round hole. you might be able to turn it a way that fits, but you may bend some edges, split some corners, and in the end you end up with a broken hole, a split peg and nowhere near as satisfying an outcome as finding the perfectly slotted shape.

Agreed with that -- to counter-counter, there are degrees of squareness and roundness. Sometimes if I have a peg that's close, it's faster and easier to whittle it down to shape rather than it is to go out and buy a peg that fits perfectly.

I watched a video yesterday about why those steel honing rods that chefs use aren't as good as just resharpening the knife. The comments were full of chefs saying that yes, that's absolutely right, the "proper" way to do it would be to resharpen completely and you would get a much more perfect edge...but chefs in a professional kitchen don't need a perfect edge, they need a good enough edge. It's hard to maintain that perfect edge when you use the knife for hours every day. But it's relatively easier to maintain a "good enough" edge with the steel honing rod.

TL;DR - It's very, very fun to pursue the "perfect" fit if you love your craft. It's a great way to learn the underlying concepts of your craft and broaden your own experiences. But when you're seeking a functional solution, the pursuit of "perfect" often gets in the way of "very good."

[Beelzebub1111]

to use the knife analogy, 5e is a Ginsu knife. It has really good advertisement and they make it look good for general wide range of use (It can cut through a tomato and a tree!), but once you start using it for a while it gets really dull and its construction makes it problematic to sharpen. It's an overconstructed chef's knife and a poor saw when you have lumberjacking to do.

[gbaji]

to use the knife analogy, 5e is a Ginsu knife. It has really good advertisement and they make it look good for general wide range of use (It can cut through a tomato and a tree!), but once you start using it for a while it gets really dull and its construction makes it problematic to sharpen. It's an overconstructed chef's knife and a poor saw when you have lumberjacking to do.

Hah. I was going with the knife analogy as well, so I'll add onto yours. The alternative is a good quality steel knife, that holds an edge very well, requires very little actual sharpening (honing regularly is sufficient), and thus fits the "consistently good enough" standard that chefs are looking for. So there is something to be said for a high quality starting point as well. IME, if you have a really good quality chefs knife, you can pretty much do anything you want with it, even if there may be other speciality knives designed specifically for that purpose. So... I can see both sides of this.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's also not a question for the GM alone--whether or not your group has the time and brain-space to learn a new system is an equally important consideration, if not more so.

[Beelzebub1111]

Hah. I was going with the knife analogy as well, so I'll add onto yours. The alternative is a good quality steel knife, that holds an edge very well, requires very little actual sharpening (honing regularly is sufficient), and thus fits the "consistently good enough" standard that chefs are looking for. So there is something to be said for a high quality starting point as well. IME, if you have a really good quality chefs knife, you can pretty much do anything you want with it, even if there may be other speciality knives designed specifically for that purpose. So... I can see both sides of this.

Which would make the high quality chef's knife something like BRP, or Opend6, or Hero system, or Interlock Unlimited. A system that can do a lot of things really well and maintains staying power with a little bit of effort every now and again.

[kyoryu]

Modding a system is perfectly reasonable, depending on how much modification is required.

I personally don't find D&D of any flavor to be a particularly general-purpose tool. It's more like a really really good paring knife - it's great at a fairly limited set of things.

However, it's like the world has only known paring knives and so selects towards jobs that can be accomplished with a paring knife.

For general purposes? GURPS, Hero, Fate, Savage Worlds, BRP, are all better general-purpose tools, although none of them are truly "generic", and all do their job in a certain way.

And none of them are great paring knives.

[NichG]

"Weapons being very samey" is the one that's got me stuck. 2e D&D and Street Fighter (shudder) have weapons have different initiative modifiers, which is kinda big in both systems, on top of different damage types and different amounts of damage. But I can't really think of any systems where it feels like a whole new game when you pick up a new weapon, the way 1st person shooter video games like Doom or Unreal Tournament have weapons that involve completely different gameplay.

Anybody got a pen & paper RPG where different weapons really feel different?

I've tried to make this. Basic ingredients were each weapon being a different skill, and automatically gaining weapon-specific 'waza' as you advance in the weapon skill.

So like Tome of Battle if maneuvers were highly weapon locked rather than class locked.

But my players didn't pick martial-heavy (or even combat focused) characters when I tested it out, so no idea if it would work or not.

[Nepenthe]

Valor has the best tactical combat of anything I've played. It's level-based point buy, so you get the detailed customization with a baked in power curve. The biggest downside is that you have to build each enemy as basically a templated PC, so prep can be pretty labor intensive.

I used it to run a Dark Souls inspired campaign where every encounter was a set piece encounter. It was a blast.

[Duff]

"Weapons being very samey" is the one that's got me stuck. 2e D&D and Street Fighter (shudder) have weapons have different initiative modifiers, which is kinda big in both systems, on top of different damage types and different amounts of damage. But I can't really think of any systems where it feels like a whole new game when you pick up a new weapon, the way 1st person shooter video games like Doom or Unreal Tournament have weapons that involve completely different gameplay.

Anybody got a pen & paper RPG where different weapons really feel different?

4th ed D&D might actually have gotten this one right.
If you pay your "Feat Tax", each different type of weapon gets a rider. Eg, maces get a pushback effect, heavy blades (like a longsword) get extra damage on opportunity attacks and light blades get extra damage when you have advantage.
I might be wrong with the specifics, it's been a while. But the principle is shown