OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread

[Vikenlugaid]

I expect that Soon, being an epic paladin who literally saved the world and devoted his entire life before and after that to fighting Evil, would probably wouldn't need to go down fighting like the others to qualify. The alignment's called Lawful Good, people, not Inflexible Stupid.

But "martyr" is not the same as "hero".

[Ruck]

I expect that Soon, being an epic paladin who literally saved the world and devoted his entire life before and after that to fighting Evil, would probably wouldn't need to go down fighting like the others to qualify. The alignment's called Lawful Good, people, not Inflexible Stupid.

And while I think it's been mentioned (or speculated) that the idea of the ghost-martyrs is based on (if not fully faithful to) some existing positive-energy spirit thing, I'm pretty sure ghost-martyrs are not just a thing that exists by default in the OOTS universe, and Soon had to devise it somehow. And I doubt he would devise whatever magic spells and oaths were needed for the ghost-martyrs such that they would require him to commit suicide, when he could just... not do that.

[Kardwill]

Now that you mention Soon, something tells me that to be a ghost martyr you need to die like a martyr, that doesn't strike me as dying of old age.
Maybe he even needed to go seppuku to activate that ritual.

Maybe the "martyr" thing is just the fact that they volunteered to become eternal undead guardians rather than going to the afterlife? Willingly doing the oathghost thing (and risking erasure-by-snarl along the way) is a pretty big sacrifice.

[Vikenlugaid]

Maybe the "martyr" thing is just the fact that they volunteered to become eternal undead guardians rather than going to the afterlife? Willingly doing the oathghost thing (and risking erasure-by-snarl along the way) is a pretty big sacrifice.

Well, the last thing is not a posibility, the Snarl can't get free if the gate is still there, abd if the gate is destroyed they banish, so apparently Snarl can't do anything to them.

But yeah, the martyr thing could be just "the sacrifice of being a guardian after death" but if you can die peacefully of old age and then still be called a martyr is... Far less dramatic XD

[Kardwill]

But yeah, the martyr thing could be just "the sacrifice of being a guardian after death" but if you can die peacefully of old age and then still be called a martyr is... Far less dramatic XD

It is fairly dramatic if Soon is waiting for you at the Gates of Heaven, asking you if your oath means you're ready for another tour of duty beyond death itself. ^^

I'm sure a nearby archon would be willing to play some Two Steps From Hell, if Soon really needed some dramatic over-the-top music to drive the point home.

[danielxcutter]

It's also possible that Soon himself was a central component of the oathspirit pact, considering that there's a very high chance he was quite literally the greatest paladin in the entire history of the world. Well, this one, at least, but even so I think the current planet's several thousand years old? That's not exactly a short period.

[Peelee]

Well, the last thing is not a posibility, the Snarl can't get free if the gate is still there, abd if the gate is destroyed they banish, so apparently Snarl can't do anything to them.

But yeah, the martyr thing could be just "the sacrifice of being a guardian after death" but if you can die peacefully of old age and then still be called a martyr is... Far less dramatic XD

I feel like the dramatic part of them was the whole "legion of ghosts hidden from the world suddenly rising in defense of the Gate, their numbers bolstered by the major influx of warriors just slain, turning the perception from stripping the defenses away to strengthening them" bit.

The word "martyr" was not particularly dramatic for me, and Soon dying of old age instead of ritualistic suicide doesn't change that. But that's just me.

[whitehelm]

Now that you mention Soon, something tells me that to be a ghost martyr you need to die like a martyr, that doesn't strike me as dying of old age.
Maybe he even needed to go seppuku to activate that ritual.

Soon calls the army of ghosts behind him ghost-martyrs, no one ever says Soon himself is a martyr.

[Provengreil]

I feel like the dramatic part of them was the whole "legion of ghosts hidden from the world suddenly rising in defense of the Gate, their numbers bolstered by the major influx of warriors just slain, turning the perception from stripping the defenses away to strengthening them" bit.

The word "martyr" was not particularly dramatic for me, and Soon dying of old age instead of ritualistic suicide doesn't change that. But that's just me.

I agree.

It's really a just a description when you think about it. In common usage, a martyr dies for their cause, and strengthens said cause in doing so. They were ghosts, and they were martyrs.

But that splash panel: it's one of those pages that makes me wish I could forget so I could go back and see it for the first time again.

[gbaji]

Well, we have no evidence for that, but we do have evidence that when Soon was reaching an age where he expected to die soon, he handed over responsibility for the Sapphire Guard to the Lord of the City.

But, yeah, maybe he committed seppuku. They're both equally plausible.

That's reasonable. At the very least, he likely performed some kind of powerful ritual to bind his spirt to the throneroom (probably the gemstone itself) in a way so as to also bind future followers of his order to the same "duty even after death" as well. The specifics of his death aren't super important, but presuambly "dying" was involved in said ritual.

Sure. And maybe he was, in fact, pancaked by a dump truck driver. They're both equally plausible to the possibility that he died of old age.

I would assume the actual dump truck, and not the driver, would be required. Unless we're talking about a really big driver.

[Ruck]

I would assume the actual dump truck, and not the driver, would be required. Unless we're talking about a really big driver.

I would as well. Also, I forgot to mention he was drunk.

[Peelee]

I would as well. Also, I forgot to mention he was drunk.

So was Emperor Bont the Viscous, but he still made it through alright.

[Ruck]

So was Emperor Bont the Viscous, but he still made it through alright.

Alas, Tiny Dinky Daffy did not.

[Lord Torath]

I feel like I'm missing some crucial Loony context...

[Ruck]

I feel like I'm missing some crucial Loony context...

I believe Peelee is referencing Futurama, whereas I am referencing I Think You Should Leave:

https://youtu.be/AFj3tuNukTs?si=doVRkhGNd3CuWa3E

[Lord Torath]

Ah. "Tiny Dinky Daffy" made me suspect a Loony Toonz sketch.

[Peelee]

I believe Peelee is referencing Futurama

Really, any time I make any sort of reference, you could put money on it being Futurama and come out pretty far ahead over enough time.

[brian 333]

While I am a great admirer of Futurama references, I do not think how the paladin dies is important.

As we all know, my ability to read The Giant's mind is quite limited. However, were I creating the Sapphire Guard, and guided by what has been shown in comic, I would do something like this:

Soon said 'Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable. (He should have read the Blackguard PrC entry, but I digress.)

To become a paladin one presumes rituals and oaths are used. If, in these rituals, there are key bits embedded which help to attune the paladin's spirit to the gem, then things like how and where a paladin dies won't matter.

So, the first time an applicant takes The Oath to become a member of the SG the first key is activated. At every level thereafter, or two, four, whatever, The Oath is renewed and expanded upon, activating more keys. Once enough of these keys are activated, the character's spirit is bound to the sapphire, and goes there instead of to the afterlife.

The Ghost Martyr part is because the spirit has given up its afterlife for its oath, not because it gave up its material life. Those are just regular martyrs.

Sort of like Zevulon The Great, it's not how he died that matters, but the seasonings with which he was preserved.

[bunsen_h]

To become a paladin one presumes rituals and oaths are used. If, in these rituals, there are key bits embedded which help to attune the paladin's spirit to the gem, then things like how and where a paladin dies won't matter.

So, the first time an applicant takes The Oath to become a member of the SG the first key is activated. At every level thereafter, or two, four, whatever, The Oath is renewed and expanded upon, activating more keys. Once enough of these keys are activated, the character's spirit is bound to the sapphire, and goes there instead of to the afterlife.

Out of curiosity, do RAW specify how long it would take a fairly-high-level fighter to switch to being a paladin? In O-Chul's case, it happened within Good Deeds Gone Unpunished, but the details happened between pages.

The Ghost Martyr part is because the spirit has given up its afterlife for its oath, not because it gave up its material life. Those are just regular martyrs.

Did the spirits give up their afterlives? Or just put them on hold for a while?

[Kish]

Out of curiosity, do RAW specify how long it would take a fairly-high-level fighter to switch to being a paladin? In O-Chul's case, it happened within Good Deeds Gone Unpunished, but the details happened between pages.

They don't switch. It's--

Everyone gets told by the cosmos, "You are at [XP total for next level], so you leveled." (This happened early in No Cure for the Paladin Blues.)

Roy says, "I take another fighter level and remain a single-classed fighter!" Roy is now a level 13 fighter and a level 13 character. He will gain another level when he reaches [XP total for level 14].
Belkar says, "I take a barbarian level." Belkar is now a level 12 ranger, a level 1 barbarian, and a level 13 character. He will gain another level when he reaches [XP total for level 14].

[Yirggzmb]

Did the spirits give up their afterlives? Or just put them on hold for a while?

I guess the ideal situation for the gate is that it never gets broken and the ghosts are just there indefinitely. They're there as defense but hopefully it's never needed.

[bunsen_h]

They don't switch. It's--

Everyone gets told by the cosmos, "You are at [XP total for next level], so you leveled." (This happened early in No Cure for the Paladin Blues.)

Roy says, "I take another fighter level and remain a single-classed fighter!" Roy is now a level 13 fighter and a level 13 character. He will gain another level when he reaches [XP total for level 14].
Belkar says, "I take a barbarian level." Belkar is now a level 12 ranger, a level 1 barbarian, and a level 13 character. He will gain another level when he reaches [XP total for level 14].

Then how did it happen that literally between a pair of pages, O-Chul switched from being a fighter to being a paladin? Going by what you're saying, and the "model" shown in NCftPB, O-Chul would have had to have enough XP to advance as a fighter, but hadn't yet "checked" his stats. Between those two pages, he'd have had to do that check, discovered he was ready to advance, and announced the switch to the universe.

[Tzardok]

Just as likely is that he took the vows and went through the acceptance ceremony during that time, so he was allowed to call himself "member of the Sapphire Guard", but he wasn't a paladin yet. That came with the next level up.

[danielxcutter]

Alternatively, he may have gotten a Paladin level and the ceremony was to make it official.

[Kish]

Just as likely is that he took the vows and went through the acceptance ceremony during that time, so he was allowed to call himself "member of the Sapphire Guard", but he wasn't a paladin yet. That came with the next level up.

Especially considering that in the same book, Miko is apparently a Sapphire Guard member and definitely a single-classed monk.

[Vikenlugaid]

Did the spirits give up their afterlives? Or just put them on hold for a while?

I think is a "no" for both questions. I think they got a regular afterlife till the time they are summoned to defend the gate as ghosts, then banish and continue the afterlife again.

I mean, how could Soon (a lawful good paladin) bind their souls to the gem denying their afterlife without telling them?

[arimareiji]

Did the spirits give up their afterlives? Or just put them on hold for a while?

As it turned out, they put them on hold: "Our oaths to defend the Gate was all that bound our souls to this world.... Even now, we are fading to the Celestial Realm."
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html

I guess the ideal situation for the gate is that it never gets broken and the ghosts are just there indefinitely. They're there as defense but hopefully it's never needed.

Indeed. They were willing to take a risk on putting the afterlife on permanent hold, which at least in my book is a good case for martyrdom. Given enough time, they might've faded away in the same way that afterlife souls do as they reach enlightenment / are consumed by the gods.

[bunsen_h]

Especially considering that in the same book, Miko is apparently a Sapphire Guard member and definitely a single-classed monk.

Hmm. Explicitly, "I have not been initiated as a paladin yet." I stand corrected.

[danielxcutter]

I vaguely remember something about clerics as well as paladins being members of the Guard, so presumably members of other classes can join and take a level of one of those upon being initiated.

[Quizatzhaderac]

2- We know how dead Soon was, but maybe he wasn't like that in the past.

I strongly assume that he was less dead in the past.

Is it just me, or does anyone else kinda feel sorry for Calder? I mean, I'm not rooting for him, but I'm not rooting against him, either...

Rooting around him then?

Then how did it happen that literally between a pair of pages, O-Chul switched from being a fighter to being a paladin? Going by what you're saying, and the "model" shown in NCftPB, O-Chul would have had to have enough XP to advance as a fighter, but hadn't yet "checked" his stats. Between those two pages, he'd have had to do that check, discovered he was ready to advance, and announced the switch to the universe.

My headcannon is that once he acquires the social role of "Paladin" it's then possible for him to acquire class levels.

Although there might have been some training and training XP shortly after he assumed the social role.