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2024-01-21, 10:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
During the very long argument about Initiative in my own system on the front page, a couple of points were raised about Initiative in 3.5 that I wanted to clarify.
1: Even though most people use the Pathfinder system of rolling initiative individually for every enemy, by 3.5 RAW all enemies are supposed to share a single turn by default. But, how are you supposed to determine the initiative count for this unified enemy turn? Roll for everyone and take the best? Take the worst? Take the mean average? Take the median average? Always go on 20? Nominate one leader to set initiative for the entire team? What?
2: Is there anything stopping all of the players who go after the monster's turn from delaying their initiative count to an arbitrarily high initiative count in the second turn? Does this then effectively allow said players to go in any order they like for the rest of the combat?
For example, Bob has an initiative of 7, Alice an initiative of 3. They both delay, and then Bob acts on count 9999999999 in the second round and Alice on Initiative count 99999999998 in the second round. Then on the third round Alice wants to go first, so Bob delays to 99999999997, and so on.
Thanks!Last edited by Talakeal; 2024-01-21 at 10:43 AM.
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2024-01-21, 11:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
Huh?
Originally Posted by https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htmOriginally Posted by TalakealLast edited by Kish; 2024-01-21 at 11:13 AM.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2024-01-21, 12:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
That is interesting. The SRD lacks the section that immediately follows character initiative titled "Monster initiative". Maybe that is why most people don't realize it is a rule?
It is at the bottom of page 136 in the 3.5 PHB. If you don't have the book, you should be able to find a free .pdf online to check for yourself.
It reads "Typically the DM makes a single initiative check for monsters and other opponents. That way, each player gets one turn each round, and the DM also gets one turn. At the DM's option, however, he can make separate initiative checks for different groups of monsters or even individual creatures. For example, the DM might make one initiative check for an evil cleric of Nerull and a separate initiative check for all seven of her zombie guards."
Why is it not as good though?
Either way, you are going after the monster's first turn but before the monster's second turn, and now you can act in any order you like. What is the downside here?Last edited by Talakeal; 2024-01-21 at 12:00 PM.
Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.
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2024-01-21, 12:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
The main downside would be that you have taken one action to the monster's two, overall.
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2024-01-21, 12:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
In the specific circumstance where:
You rolled 3 for initiative.
All the enemies, for one reason or another, are acting on initiative count 10.
You have an ally who you know, for one reason or another, will buff your attacks on initiative count 21.
You have a DM guarantee that "all the enemies act on initiative count 10" will remain the case for the entire battle.
it probably makes sense to delay your initiative such that you do not act at all on round 1 and your initiative count becomes 20. The delay action wouldn't exist if it never made sense to use it.
Something has still been lost, in acting later than you could, because the part I bolded is effectively never true. The DM is not doing anything inappropriate if she says, "A new enemy joins the battle. They'll be acting on initiative 2. You would be right before them, but you delayed and now you're not."Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2024-01-21, 12:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
This is often a good tactic, but one needs to be careful - if another opponent joins the combat on round 2 they automatically join at the top of the initiative order and your delaying character may go from "waiting to deliver a devastating attack instead of an OK one" to "never got to attack at all".
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2024-01-21, 12:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
Do new enemies join at the top of the order or do they roll normally? If its the later, wouldn't delaying until initiative count 999999999999 be better than acting at initiative 3? If the former, yeah, I can see that.
Which one is RAW? I can't recall, its been too long since I played 3E.Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.
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2024-01-21, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
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2024-01-21, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.
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2024-01-21, 01:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
I'd say that the assumption is that it makes sense for all the monsters to act as a group if they're all the same monster with the same initiative bonus. That's a pretty typical setup for an average, random encounter. The party is more likely to run into "5 orc warriors" or "2 otyughs" or whatever, rather than a mixed group of creatures with different stats. That's more the purview of a specially crafted encounter or a boss fight with minions.
So sure, saying that the DM just takes one turn for all the monsters is probably true 50-75% of the time unless the DM is one who likes to make things interesting by mixing things more often. But really, the fact that it's immediately followed up by saying the DM can choose take different turns for different groups of monsters or just roll individually if they want says a lot.
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2024-01-21, 11:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
I tend to roll NPC initiative in subgroups. The orc captain rolls alone with his +6, his two sergeants roll together with initiative +3, and all the basic orc soldiers will go together with their initiative +0.
In an upcoming game, the PCs will face a rival party, and, for the first time, I'm rolling each character's initiative separately.
On a separate issue, what do people think about rolling NPC initiative in advance? Since that party is setting up an ambush, and I already know that the PCs will be stepping into it, I went ahead and rolled, and mapped out their first round of action (which will be a surprise round or just the first round, depending on whether the PCs's roll a good Listen check, or take some action that prevents the ambush from being a surprise.
I know my players are OK with it, because I have sometimes done it in the past. I always tell them when I do it. But in general, what do people think?
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2024-01-22, 06:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
Mathematically, it doesn't make a difference. However, it does give you more time to plan a strategy that includes the information of which creatures or groups are going to act in what order, which is a piece of information you wouldn't have time to think about if you rolled initiative on the spot.
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2024-01-22, 09:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
One thing that I feel forced to mention...
Delaying to 999999 is not possible, you can only reduce your iniative, so you can turn your initiative 17 into a -10 initative and act at the end of the current turn. You cannot use the delay action to increase your initiative, and even if you could... doing so would be a horrible idea, as it would mean losing a turn.
Regarding monsters rolling initiative, I do it so creatures with the same modifier roll together for simplification, that's it. Anyone with a different modifier gets their own roll.
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2024-01-22, 10:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
I don't believe that is correct. From the delay section of the SRD:
"If you take a delayed action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round."
As for being a horrible idea, while you are technically not acting in the first round if you do this, functionally there is no difference between going after your opponents this round and before your opponents next round except for more flexibility in coordinating with your teammates. At least AFAICT.Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.
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2024-01-22, 11:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
Works great. I had (in a different system but functionally the same for this) a fight the PCs triggered during an illegal auction of dangerous/illegal technomagic & information. Were about 10-12 different groups of 2-8 characters each, plus the PCs & the trigger monster (they opened a stasis field with an insane murder demon dual weilding grenade launchers). I called the game for the night and we would pick back up in at combat start next week. At home I rolled out the first three rounds of combat without the PCs being direct targets (except from the demon after a round or so), just splash damage.
At game time it worked great. I had a couple pages of notes so anyone the PCs interfered with could be struck out and done dynamically. The NPCs (except a pair of cult heretics) weren't there for a fight to the death so it was mostly a confused rush to the exits with occasional spells & aoe effects. By the end of round 3 (10 to 15 second duration rounds) the room was mostly empty and the fanatics reached the PCs who were engaged with the demon. Ran great.
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2024-01-22, 02:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
I just roll a D20 initiative for my army . Including my 1 or 3 bosses.
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2024-01-22, 04:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
I once ran a combat with 10 interchangeable enemies versus my party of six. That's way too much bookkeeping for table time, so I pre-rolled not only their initiative and all of their attacks, but also all of the saves any of them might have to make. Nobody complained, and really, if everyone's having fun, that means you're doing it right, regardless of what the books say.
Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
—As You Like It, III:ii:328
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2024-01-22, 05:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
There are some situations when it makes sense to delay, primarily to coordinate with allies.
I will often wait for the caster who is casting haste, or the bard who will start singing to inspire courage.
Some spells make a difference. If I’m using freezing glance on an opponent, I want to go immediately before my target. Suppose I have initiative 20, my ally has 18, and the enemy has 15. If I immobilize him on 20, and my ally hits him on 18, then the enemy gets another saving throw, and may get to to move and attack on 15. But if I let my opponent attack him on 18, then I immobilize him on 16, he loses his initiative on 15. In the next round, my ally hits him on 18 again. If the enemy makes his saving throw, I have another chance to immobilize him on 16, before he can act on 15.
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2024-01-22, 07:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2024-01-22, 08:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
I mean, they explicitly put something else there: that if you delay long enough that your initiative count wraps around, you can keep delaying all fight if you want, but you're still only going to have one delayed action and your initiative count will become whatever it is when you finally act.
That said, I think most players would understand that saying they're acting on an initiative count with six digits is asking the DM to throw a book at them.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2024-01-22, 09:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2024-01-22, 10:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
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2024-01-23, 04:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
The way I've always played it, the number you roll stops mattering as soon as the order of turns is established. People don't say things like "I want to delay to Initiative count 22" or whatever (nobody remembers what creature acts on what count anyway), they say "I want to delay until after the barbarian acts" or "The skeleton acts now? I'd like to take my turn now".
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2024-01-23, 05:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2024-01-23, 07:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
Exactly. Initiative is an ordinal number, not a cardinal one.
Initiative 22 is not 5 more (or 5 "faster") then 17. It is just higher then 17, and also higher then 21 and so on.
17 is higher then 1 and also higher then 16.
(17, Ini Mod +5) is higher then (17, Ini Mod +3).
(17, Ini Mod +5, has won the coinflip) is higher then (17, Ini Mod +5, has lost the coinflip).
Once the initial order has been determined, the number looses its meaning and can be discarded.
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2024-01-23, 10:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
It matters in one important way, it limits the number of times someone can delay without losing a turn.
If delay only changed the sequences, the players could just freely act in any order they like as often as they wanted.*
For example, if Bob acts at 26, Alice acts at 17, and the Monster acts at 15, Bob can only delay until after Alice once without losing a turn, and will then be at 16. At this point, if Alice wants to delay until after Bob, she is going to lose a turn to the monster.**
*Not that I think this is a problem, in my home brew system this is explicitly allowed.
** Discounting ties for the sake of this example.Looking for feedback on Heart of Darkness, a character driven RPG of Gothic fantasy.
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2024-01-23, 12:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
Pretty much this. We used to use a magnetic whiteboard with magnet strips that had paper pasted on them. New entrants just showed up at the botom of the count and swapping around was easy.
Wouldn't suggest it for AD&D or systems where you can have other things that take multiple counts within the round to complete.
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2024-01-23, 05:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
There was a passage in the PLAYER'S HANDBOOK version three – not 3.5, but 3.0 – that explained how to determine a contest between two potential combatants who choose to delay rather than fight. The passage was on page 34. A friendly colleague of the Playground, "Pair o' Dice Lost," shared it with me. Here it is.
Multiple Characters Delaying: If multiple characters are delaying, the one with the highest initiative bonus (or highest Dexterity, in case of a tie) has the advantage. If two or more delaying characters both want to act on the same initiative count, the one with the highest bonus gets to go first. If two or more delaying characters are trying to go after the other, the one with the highest initiative bonus gets to go last.
For instance, Lidda and an elf stranger run across each other in a back alley in a big city. Lidda’s initiative count is 17, higher than the elf’s. She doesn’t want to commit to attacking, fleeing, or parleying, so she delays, intending to act after the elf acts. The elf’s initiative count is 12. He delays, too. The initiative count drops down, and neither character acts. (If there were other characters in the encounter, they would act on their initiative counts.) Finally, the count reaches –17, Lidda’s limit (thanks to her +7 initiative bonus), and the elf still hasn’t acted. Lidda has to choose, and the elf (who apparently has a higher initiative bonus) will get to respond. “Well met,” says Lidda, crossing her fingers.
This passage sets a limit to how far you can delay your turn in competition with somebody else. The rule is that you cannot act on an initiative count lower than zero minus your initiative bonus. (This elf must have had an impressive initiative bonus to beat Lidda's +7 bonus.)Last edited by Duke of Urrel; 2024-02-15 at 07:38 PM.
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2024-01-23, 09:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative
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2024-01-24, 08:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: A couple questions about RAW 3.5 Initiative