El Goonish Shive X: Please Don't Feel Bad

[Beelzebub1111]

Every time I see Diane in her bowling shirt, I think of the Raffi song.

I like to go bowling with my friend Bert
My bowling ball and my bowling shirt
Bowling is my kind of game.

[Anonymouswizard]

Indeed. "Pandora was an awful person" is not a point that needs making, as long as it's not a point that needs making to Dan, which it apparently (and much to my relief) is not. "Hope is reacting in an actually sane fashion to this" is worth more emphasis.

To be fair Pandora was significantly softened shortly before her reset with a lot of her problems shuffled off screen. I don't see an issue with re-establishing her issues, especially as it's a somewhat logical progression of her widespread marking.

Especially as working through her (their? Do Immortals actually have genders) feelings is a great way for her to bond with the gang.

[Gez]

Especially as working through her (their? Do Immortals actually have genders)

1. Why wouldn't they?
2. All the Immortals in the comic so far have either been clearly feminine or clearly masculine, and it's not like Dan is a very heteronormative author.
3. Pandora is a mother. She had a human husband, got pregnant, and gave birth to Raven. Raven in turn had a few human lovers and got them pregnant too, cf. the whole deal about how Susan and Diane are related.
4. Furthermore, it's been established that every single wizard in this setting (including seers) has at least one Immortal in their ancestry. Meaning that mating with humans and producing children is not a one-of flight of fancy on Pandora's part; it's something basically all Immortals have done throughout at least some of their incarnations. Which also means that, biologically speaking, they are the same species as humans, as Immortals and humans can have fertile offspring that can in turn further have fertile offspring.

Therefore, if humans have genders, then Immortals, being technically also humans just with more magic, also have genders.

[Anonymouswizard]

1. Why wouldn't they?

Why would they? They're shapeshifters, bound to one form even less than Grace.

2. All the Immortals in the comic so far have either been clearly feminine or clearly masculine, and it's not like Dan is a very heteronormative author.

Fair, but not conclusive.

3. Pandora is a mother. She had a human husband, got pregnant, and gave birth to Raven.

None of that automatically makes her a mother. It's possible to have a husband and get pregnant as other genders.

4. Furthermore, it's been established that every single wizard in this setting (including seers) has at least one Immortal in their ancestry. Meaning that mating with humans and producing children is not a one-of flight of fancy on Pandora's part; it's something basically all Immortals have done throughout at least some of their incarnations. Which also means that, biologically speaking, they are the same species as humans, as Immortals and humans can have fertile offspring that can in turn further have fertile offspring.

Do we have confirmation on Immortals having biology?

Therefore, if humans have genders, then Immortals, being technically also humans just with more magic, also have genders.

I don't see how that follows.

[Beelzebub1111]

Why would they? They're shapeshifters, bound to one form even less than Grace.

And yet, grace has a gender. Tedd has a gender, it's fluid but they still identify as having one

None of that automatically makes her a mother. It's possible to have a husband and get pregnant as other genders.

I think Gez means Mother in the biological sense.

Do we have confirmation on Immortals having biology?

They reproduce sexually. If that's not evidence of biology I don't know what is.

I don't see how that follows.

I do, which means I think we have failed to define our terms. what do you mean when you say "Has a gender"? If the words we say mean different things then we'll never understand eachother.

[Errorname]

Why would they? They're shapeshifters, bound to one form even less than Grace.

So? Shapeshifters are much more able to shift their forms and presentation than a human is, but if they're taking a human form (which literally all the immortals we've seen do) they're going to incorporate human ideas of gender into how they present themselves.

Like Pandora uses gendered language to describe herself and is very consistent about presenting in feminine forms, I feel pretty comfortable calling her a 'her'. Having the capacity to change your gender doesn't mean you don't have a gender.

Do we have confirmation on Immortals having biology?

They can produce viable offspring with humans which clearly have hybrid features that are heritable to their children, so they've gotta have something.

[Gez]

None of that automatically makes her a mother. It's possible to have a husband and get pregnant as other genders.

Mother is not a gender.

[Kish]

As Gez pointed out, we actually haven't seen an immortal who appeared at all gender-ambiguous. None who has shown both a male form and a female form and none who look nearly as ambiguous as Tedd in any humanoid form. (I concede that Giant Toothy Monster Pandora may not have had any sexual characteristics.) So what minimal evidence we have suggests that immortals have gender identities far more consistently than humans do. (This is probably just low sample size, but in the specific case of Pandora and Hope, they appear entirely female so far.)

[Reboot]

Which also means that, biologically speaking, they are the same species as humans, as Immortals and humans can have fertile offspring that can in turn further have fertile offspring.

Eh, I'm not convinced they have genuine biology underneath it all, comsidering they can explode into light and respawn at level 1; not to mention turning into inhuman monsters or actual clouds. They may very well be able to approximate any species they encounter enough to have kids-who-can-have-kids within that species.

Along the same lines, I expect their sex is purely a product of their gender identification (i.e., Pandora/Hope has a female body in human form, functional sex organs included, purely because that's how they see themselves), and they've all had hundreds of iterations to refine the "basic self" which is preserved through resets, including gender.

[Yuki Akuma]

Which also means that, biologically speaking, they are the same species as humans, as Immortals and humans can have fertile offspring that can in turn further have fertile offspring.

That definition of 'species' has fallen out of fashion, I'm afraid, after it was discovered that female ligers (Lion + Tiger hybrid) are fertile.

[Lizard Lord]

Has Rhoda never actually seen Diane bowling or is this outfit different than her typical bowling date outfit (despite the fact that she picked it after we got the inner monolog about the qualities of a good outfit for a bowling date)?

[Reboot]

Has Rhoda never actually seen Diane bowling or is this outfit different than her typical bowling date outfit (despite the fact that she picked it after we got the inner monolog about the qualities of a good outfit for a bowling date)?

I think it's brand new. She definitely didn't wear it while bowling with Justin & Luke: https://www.egscomics.com/comic/party-047

[Beelzebub1111]

As a fervent Susan/Elliot shipper I hate like this page. But as a fan of susan's character I like it.

[Anonymouswizard]

Honestly I think Susan's just overthinking it, it's fine to go to a restaurant with a friend.

Or else I've had a lot of dates I don't know about.

[Reboot]

Honestly I think Susan's just overthinking it, it's fine to go to a restaurant with a friend.

Or else I've had a lot of dates I don't know about.

I think the point is that Susan's thoughts are going further than just "casual friend dinner". Probably not full-on "Things", given her feeling on sex, but definitely more romantic than casual.

[Celestia]

Honestly I think Susan's just overthinking it, it's fine to go to a restaurant with a friend.

Or else I've had a lot of dates I don't know about.

I sure hope that going to a restaurant with another person doesn't count as a date. I love my mom, but not like that.

[Anonymouswizard]

I think the point is that Susan's thoughts are going further than just "casual friend dinner". Probably not full-on "Things", given her feeling on sex, but definitely more romantic than casual.

Isn't Susan applied to have at least some voyeur kink? She's not interested in doing stuff personally, but if Jay's copied some form of clone spell...

Although I see no evidence so far that Susan wants more than a casual friend dinner, and it's not out of character for her to overthink something like this.

I sure hope that going to a restaurant with another person doesn't count as a date. I love my mom, but not like that.

Well I've got 265 votes saying it doesn't, and 12 from a Doctor Freud saying it does.

[Reboot]

Isn't Susan applied to have at least some voyeur kink? She's not interested in doing stuff personally, but if Jay's copied some form of clone spell...

Jay's also no-touchy. (Notwithstanding one particular thing from Parable, but Diane's already taken).

Although I see no evidence so far that Susan wants more than a casual friend dinner, and it's not out of character for her to overthink something like this.

Well, Grace was clearly in full-shipping mode, and she claims to be usually right about when people "like-like" each other.

[Kish]

Jay also indicated certain...extremely kinky...feelings toward Susan, during Parable.

[Errorname]

Well, Grace was clearly in full-shipping mode, and she claims to be usually right about when people "like-like" each other.

Also this arc's clearly being written to parallel the last card game arc, which also featured one of our leads who hadn't had a love interest get introduced to a new character who secretly has their own magic and is doing amateur spycraft

Jay also indicated certain...extremely kinky...feelings toward Susan, during Parable.

I'd also note that when she imagined what a "super cool girlfriend" would look like it was Susan's silhouette.

[Maat Mons]

Isn't Susan applied to have at least some voyeur kink?

I interpret her as being aegosexual.

[Radar]

Sarah and Grace had a similar discussion about not-a-date. All in all, it is about the intent, but at the same time, I would not put too much thought into discerning if something is or is not a date as long as there is no collision with other relationships. In the same vein, I always liked Dan's answer to question about gender: *noncommittal shrug*.

[Maat Mons]

So, we're all agreed that Luke and Justin are having another bowling date, right?

[Anonymouswizard]

Jay also indicated certain...extremely kinky...feelings toward Susan, during Parable.

If it wasn't for Patreon this comic would have become NSFW in the past half decade.

Not to actively showing kink stuff, but definitely to having bare breasts and whips onscreen.

I interpret her as being aegosexual.

Fair, that fits, but I wasn't going to pull it out because I wasn't going to dig through the list of specific terms.

So, we're all agreed that Luke and Justin are having another bowling date, right?

I don't care what their next date is, I want to see them inside Luke's room playing Shirtless Smash Brothers.

[Celestia]

If it wasn't for Patreon this comic would have become NSFW in the past half decade.

Not to actively showing kink stuff, but definitely to having bare breasts and whips onscreen.

But Patreon allows NSFW content?

[Gnoman]

Isn't Susan applied to have at least some voyeur kink? She's not interested in doing stuff personally, but if Jay's copied some form of clone spell...

It is "implied" (or, rather all but explicitly stated) that Susan's disinterest in "things" is a byproduct of her germophobia.

[Celestia]

It is "implied" (or, rather all but explicitly stated) that Susan's disinterest in "things" is a byproduct of her germophobia.

Yeah, I don't think she's actually ace.

[Anonymouswizard]

But Patreon allows NSFW content?

I was referring to his stated desire to keep things PG-13ish to avoid that 18+ only tag (next comic also relevant). And while I don't see what's wrong with bare breasts in a 12 rated movie I know others disagree with me.

[Maat Mons]

Yeah, I don't think she's actually ace.

It can be complicated. For example, I have OCD that makes me not want to touch people, and everything in the aegosexual description is spot on for me.

[Lizard Lord]

Wait...are they still outside the bowling alley? I had assumed they met inside? (The background doesn't really help one way or the other).