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2022-02-11, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2017
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- Bristol, UK
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2022-02-11, 06:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2019
- Location
- Magrathea
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Dire Shark:
Pros - fits power/size, has Swallow Whole as ability.
Cons - Swallow Whole deals acid damage, which is explicitly not being dealt. Could also be that Serini wasn't being moved into the stomach, just swallowed.
Large Shark:
Pros - fits size, does not have Swallow Whole as ability and so does not deal acid damage on swallowing.
Cons - Does not have Swallow Whole as ability, Dire Shark is cooler and stronger.An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.
See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.
Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
Green is serious talk about hypothetical
Blue is irony and sarcasm
"I think, therefore I am,
I walk, therefore I stand,
I sleep, therefore I dream;
I joke, therefore I meme."
-Squire Doodad
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2022-02-11, 07:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2016
- Location
- Earth and/or not-Earth
- Gender
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
I don't think Razor is big enough to be a dire shark. By my measurements, Razor is about 4.13 times as long as Serini is tall. Female halflings can be between 2' 8" to 3' 2" tall, which means Razor is between 11 to 13 feet long (approximately). That's a reasonable for a large shark, which can be up to 15 feet long, but completely inadequate for a 25-foot-long dire shark.
I made a webcomic, featuring absurdity, terrible art, and alleged morals.
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2022-02-11, 11:40 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2019
- Location
- Magrathea
- Gender
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Duly noted, Large Shark it is.
An explanation of why MitD being any larger than Huge is implausible.
See my extended signature here! May contain wit, candor, and somewhere from 52 to 8127 walruses.
Purple is humorous descriptions made up on the fly
Green is serious talk about hypothetical
Blue is irony and sarcasm
"I think, therefore I am,
I walk, therefore I stand,
I sleep, therefore I dream;
I joke, therefore I meme."
-Squire Doodad
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2022-02-12, 04:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2017
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
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2022-02-12, 05:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Location
- Beverly, MA, USA
- Gender
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends
Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.
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2022-02-12, 10:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2017
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
My train of thought was, if Razor is indeed a dire shark, then either they were a dire shark since the Battle of Azure City (which would say something about Lien's level that might contradict other things in the comic), or Razor evolved into a Dire Shark, or Razor the regular shark was replaced by Razor the Legally Distinct Dire Shark when Lien reached the requisite level. I didn't know if Rich had covered the replacement of familiars/mounts before, which could've been a clue as to how it might've transpired.
For what it's worth I doubt Razor is a Dire Shark based on Swallow Whole alone. I'd be very surprised if Swallow Whole wasn't a monstrous feat somewhere out in the splats.Last edited by Riftwolf; 2022-02-12 at 10:14 PM.
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2022-02-14, 08:14 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
There are ways of improving an existing Swallow ability, but not much in the way of gaining a swallow ability if they don't already have one.
However, I could see The Giant extrapolating downwards from "Dire Shark" - concluding that
"If Dire Sharks can grab/swallow Medium creatures, Large Sharks ought to be able to grab/swallow Small creatures" and buffing the standard Large Shark slightly by adding the ability.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
New Marut Avatar by Linkele
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2022-02-18, 11:13 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2006
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
I doubt we would get much in terms of useful numbers, but still have to ask. Can we infer anything about levels of bluff/sense motive based off the fact that neither rogue could determine if the other was bluffing?
Last edited by dsollen; 2022-02-18 at 11:14 AM.
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2022-02-18, 11:19 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2016
- Location
- Seoul
- Gender
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Considering the nature of the d20 system and the fact that both skills are Rogue class skills... no.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
Extended sig here.
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2022-02-19, 05:30 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2010
- Location
- Denmark
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Question: How does OotPCs say that Belkar has an int below 10? All I could find is that he says that he may not be the sharpest stick in the wood. I'd say that even with an int of 10 and a wis and cha under 10, it would fit.
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2022-02-19, 05:34 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2016
- Location
- Seoul
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
I wouldn't take that as related to his Charisma score, but otherwise yes it doesn't necessarily seem to indicate anything about stats.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
Extended sig here.
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2022-02-19, 11:35 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2017
- Location
- Bristol, UK
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
I've petitioned for that line from Belkar's entry to be removed before (I think that panels 5 and 6 of this strip are at least as strong evidence for Belkar having INT above 10 as the line from OOPC is for INT below 10), but it didn't gain any traction. Maybe an idea whose time has come?
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2022-02-19, 11:43 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2012
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Proudly addicted to pointing out where exactly rules can be found.
Countdown to Belkar's death and my follow-up count gives us less then 3 weeks left. Poor Belkar.
Avatar by Akrim.elf
___
What effects allow a saving throw?
List of almost all 3.5 skills.
Old PF Initiative Build
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2022-03-04, 09:02 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2010
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Just as a heads up Haley's section has her adamantine dagger in front of the four extra wands which kind ruins the flow.
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2022-04-04, 06:44 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Two items:
Elan is not listed as having 'Bleedingham papers' where Haley (and Vaarsuvius) are listed as having them.
Secondly Haley perhaps should be listed as having her fathers bounty paper.
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2022-04-04, 10:00 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2010
- Gender
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Question about Soon Kim.
His Cra is listed as 14+ because of Sacred Watcher, but shouldn't it be 17+ 3 for age and 4 Sacred Watcher he appears to have died from old age.
If this had been discussed before sorry. I am just bored at work.I should get a Signature
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2022-04-04, 04:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2020
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Also, Elan is listed as owning no armour, which is incorrect, since he retrieved his old outfit (presumably including the chain shirt) from Nale, he's just not been wearing it for some time now.
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2022-04-22, 01:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2017
- Location
- Bristol, UK
- Gender
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
I was looking at Belkar's entry, and a few things about his feats list concerned me. Here are the issues as I see them, and my suggested solutions.
Firstly, there's the number of feats. Not counting the ranger bonus feats, there are 7, which would imply that Belkar is level 18 overall. In that none of the Order have demonstrated even level 17, I find this highly implausible of itself. The obvious candidate for removal is Craft Disturbing Mental Image, which it seems pretty clear to me was an end-panel punchline, not an informative comment by Belkar about his build.
It gets worse though. As his other 6 feats are currently a 4-feat chain culminating in Bounding Assault (demonstrated in panel 9) and a 2-feat chain culminating in Improved Sunder (demonstrated here), it would be necessary, with the current feat list, for Belkar to be level 18 in strip #325! This, despite being patently ridiculous, would contradict his being exactly level 15 in the pyramid fight (deafened by Durkon's Holy Word), unless he lost 3 levels off-panel somehow, and didn't level between #325 and #860. Even dropping CDMI doesn't really resolve this, as it would still require Belkar to have the 4-feat chain by #176, and also the two-feat chain by #325, and to have been level 15 in both strips #325 and #860. I agree that Improved Sunder and Spring Attack are the best explanations of #325 and #928, but the package doesn't hang together at all well.
Fortunately, there is a simple resolution. Two-Weapon Pounce was suggested at the time as an alternate explanation of Belkar's "flawless victory" in #176, and this change makes the feats fit much, much easier. The feat sequence could then run something like:
1: Power Attack
3: Dodge
6: Improved Sunder
9: Two-Weapon Pounce
12: Mobility
15: Spring Attack
All feats gained in time for their relevant scenes, no unrealistic level requirements. The sequence I list here isn't definitive, especially in the early feats, but I thought it was generous to imagine that Belkar took Power Attack before he'd decided between TWF and Archery. The only additional pre-req to add would be giving Belkar a Dex of 15+, which is not at all unlikely for a halfling.
Is this optimized? Heck no, Belkar remains a Ranger who can't cast spells from his innate Wisdom, and who took Power Attack, yet fights with daggers, but this is much closer to both RAW and our level estimations than what we have right now.
TL DR: There are problems with Belkar's feat list. Dropping CDMI, changing Bounding Assault to Two-Weapon Pounce, and upping Belkar's Dex to 15+ resolves them.
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2022-04-22, 03:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2006
- Location
- Meridianville AL
- Gender
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Note that in 3.0 there was no choice between twf and archery, rangers got twf by default, and power attack WORKED with light weapons so it was golden for rangers who needed bonus damage to make their builds work.
Like V, Belkar did not do well out of the edition change in strip 1.
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2022-04-22, 11:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2017
- Location
- Bristol, UK
- Gender
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2022-04-23, 01:42 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2017
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Sounds good to me. The opening post could use a little trimming of the fat in general. Too many things on there are clearly a joke, or extrapolated from tenuous evidence, or don't have an explanation at all.
While we're on the subject of changing things, can we just strike this rule?
It's flawed. It assumes that 1) characters have perfect knowledge about each other's builds and 2) everything they say about each other is accurate. It also means we have to include the obvious joke builds like Craft: Disturbing Mental Image.The Everyman's Guide to Taking Up Arms - A Guide to Fighters
Practical Magical Gadgetry - A Guide to Artificers
Avatar courtesy of the webcomic Aurora, drawn by Red
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2022-04-23, 11:25 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
It isn't an absolute rule (otherwise Oona would be a ranger - which frankly I think she should be), but on your two points.
Character statements are often the only clear way that The Giant can communicate to us about what someone is - if we ignore it then things like Elan's charisma become in doubt.
On Belkar he could be level 18 (he had made 8 attacks here panels 2,3 and 5 without responce - if we assume that panel 5 is his attack of opportunity then that is 7 attacks which he would have with 4 base and 3 two weapon fighting attacks) - which would allow him to keep all his feats and works nicely with him being able to treat an opponent 4 levels higher then Haley like a chump.
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2022-04-23, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2017
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- Bristol, UK
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Belkar would gain his 4th attack (not including off-hand attacks) at level 16, not level 18, so I'm not quite sure what point you're making. For #616, I had assumed that panels 1 & 2 were in one round, and panel 3 was the start of a new round, with Belkar deliberately making fewer attacks than he could in panel 5 to avoid kill-stealing.
However, the issue still remains that if he's 16+ in this fight, then how is he exactly level 15 in the pyramid fight for Durkon's Holy Word to deafen, but not blind him? I really don't think we can put Durkon at level 17 in the pyramid fight for the sake of upping Belkar's level.
I know Belkar taunts Bozzok and Crystal here, but I also notice that he drops his +2 dagger to pick up Bozzok's shield, so he clearly valued the extra AC over extra attacks. I think he was belittling the Rogues for their 3/4 BAB (unlike "proper" martials), but his actions show that he actually considered them a threat, and altered his tactics accordingly.
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2022-04-23, 02:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
The point is that if Belkar is a higher level then he is listed at then he could have the feats he currently has.
For #616, I had assumed that panels 1 & 2 were in one round, and panel 3 was the start of a new round, with Belkar deliberately making fewer attacks than he could in panel 5 to avoid kill-stealing.
However, the issue still remains that if he's 16+ in this fight, then how is he exactly level 15 in the pyramid fight for Durkon's Holy Word to deafen, but not blind him? I really don't think we can put Durkon at level 17 in the pyramid fight for the sake of upping Belkar's level.
I know Belkar taunts Bozzok and Crystal here, but I also notice that he drops his +2 dagger to pick up Bozzok's shield, so he clearly valued the extra AC over extra attacks. I think he was belittling the Rogues for their 3/4 BAB (unlike "proper" martials), but his actions show that he actually considered them a threat, and altered his tactics accordingly.
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2022-04-27, 06:44 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2021
- Location
- France
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
We have many other instances of characters attacking without break, if only Xykon's iconic Energy Drain spam in SoD.
There indeed is many ways to improve caster level, but Durkon is never shown to use them, while V (for example) pretty clearly is. The point of this thread is to make the least amount of unbased assumption possible, and "Belkar is lv 18 and Durkon has items to boost his caster level by 3 and Nale and Zz'dtri are at level 18 too but Z never used a 9th level spell" is more assumption than just "The Giant took some artistic liberty in depicting those two combat rounds and Belkar is just that good". Honestly, the power levels are kinda all over the place. We have seen Roy solo basically the entire dominated Order (who were all higher level than he is), why wouldn't Belkar be able to beat two rogues?Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
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2022-05-11, 04:19 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2021
- Location
- France
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Did we ever figure out what mind control spell Xykon used in SOD to
Spoiler: Start of Darknessimplant the permanent suggestion that the MitD would eat Redcloak and spit out his amulet should he ever betray Xykon?
I haven't found any sorcerer Compulsion spell with such a permanent effect, except Hypnotism. If the target was already friendly to Xykon (which it seemingly was), that would make it permanently fanatic in regards to that specific suggestion, which is probably how it will work. At the very least, we should put some variation of "mind-control spell permanent until discharged" in Xykon's spell list.
Spoiler: Speculation with spoilers for SODThis would also make the MitD at most 12 RHD (maximum of an empowered Hypnotism), and more likely 8 RHD (Maximized Hypnotism). Now, this may be because the MitD is still a child ("it will grow in time"), and Xykon put an Hypnotism on it knowing that it would soon become much more powerful. Or it means that the MitD really has no more than 8 RHD, which I find doubtful.Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
Nice find! Have a cookie!
Do you want to build monstrous characters with reasonable LA? Join the Monster Mash! Currently, round XII: One-Punch Monster!!! Come judge single-strike entries!
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2022-06-15, 12:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2017
- Location
- Bristol, UK
- Gender
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Does anyone else think that Serini's interactions with the trolls are evidence of at least one rank in Diplomacy?
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2022-06-16, 03:06 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2020
Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
Native Sha'ir enthusiast. NO GENIE WARLOCK DOESNT COUNT!
Rate my homebrew: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=323
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2022-06-16, 05:56 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2013
- Location
- Europe
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XIX - Nobody Cares about that Stuff Anymore
I think the Handle animal is used only for domesticated animals. For everything else, you use Diplomacy or Wild empathy, which are basically the same skills, only bards call it Diplomacy while Rangers or Druids call it Wild empathy (#335 last panel). Then there's the third skill, Ride (#141 9th).