The Kobolt Oracle?

**ChaosSlayer** · 2019-11-28, 12:53 PM (ISO 8601)

The character of Kobolt Oracle has always been very interesting to me.
I mean this guy knows everything in advance - at least glimpses of it.
Because of that there are very few things that scare him - I mean he can predict his own death and have Wiz+Cleric show up just on time to resurrect him.

However, he intentionally skipped the meeting with Xykon.
Per Oracle himself "The guy is freaken scary!".
He scared of him so much, that he doesn't even want to prepare for potential death and rez, he just wants to avoid him completely!
Considering that Oracle knows A LOT in advance, he must know something about Xykon that he doesn't even want to EVER meet him, even with Wiz+Cleric team standing by.
It also hints at: Oracle doesn't have any good news for Xykon.

What do you guys think?

**Reboot** · 2019-11-28, 12:55 PM (ISO 8601)

Or, alternatively, he knew he wouldn't be there. So he fulfilled his own prophecy by being elsewhere.

PS: Kobold, not Kobolt.

**hamishspence** · 2019-11-28, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)

PPS: Kobold, not Kobald.

**hroþila** · 2019-11-28, 01:05 PM (ISO 8601)

I'm not sure how this works. I mean, it does look like fate is fixed (no preventing the Oracle's prophecies from becoming true) and it doesn't look like the Oracle can see things that won't actually happen, i.e. he can't foresee Xykon killing him in a way that a Resurrect spell can undo and thus decide to not be there, because in that case the temporal line wouldn't feature Xykon killing him and he wouldn't have been able to foresee it. How much agency he has is an insoluble metaphysical problem that has troubled philosophers and theologians for millennia, so the message board of a stick figure comic is unlikely to provide a satisfactory answer.

So let's just say that it be like that sometimes.

**Riftwolf** · 2019-11-28, 01:57 PM (ISO 8601)

He might have read Start of Darkness and saw Xykon had Trap the Soul. That's a tough one to get around.

**Fyraltari** · 2019-11-28, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)

Or Xykon torturing people, making their zombified corpes eat their loved ones and all the other horrific **** he commits on an hourly basis.

**Roland Itiative** · 2019-11-28, 03:59 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by hroþila

I'm not sure how this works. I mean, it does look like fate is fixed (no preventing the Oracle's prophecies from becoming true) and it doesn't look like the Oracle can see things that won't actually happen, i.e. he can't foresee Xykon killing him in a way that a Resurrect spell can undo and thus decide to not be there, because in that case the temporal line wouldn't feature Xykon killing him and he wouldn't have been able to foresee it. How much agency he has is an insoluble metaphysical problem that has troubled philosophers and theologians for millennia, so the message board of a stick figure comic is unlikely to provide a satisfactory answer.

So let's just say that it be like that sometimes.

That can get a little messy. We know for sure the oracle DOES prepare in advance for things he foresees (both making his land officially a city just to punish Belkar, and paying in advance for a resurrection). So either he can somewhat manipulate the outcome, or he already foresees the actions he would take if he could hypothetically see what would happen without said foresight (which is kinda brain-twisty).

In both cases, him avoiding Xykon because he knows Xykon would make him suffer in a fashion there's no recovery from makes sense. He either saw he would avoid Xykon to save his own behind, and followed the "script", or he saw Xykon imprisoning his soul/making him into a zombie/whatever, and acted to change that future.

**Fyraltari** · 2019-11-28, 04:17 PM (ISO 8601)

Or maybe he foresaw Xykon coming to the Sunken Valley but not their meeting and decided not to be there that particular day because the dude is scary.

**The Aboleth** · 2019-11-28, 04:30 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Roland Itiative

That can get a little messy. We know for sure the oracle DOES prepare in advance for things he foresees (both making his land officially a city just to punish Belkar, and paying in advance for a resurrection). So either he can somewhat manipulate the outcome, or he already foresees the actions he would take if he could hypothetically see what would happen without said foresight (which is kinda brain-twisty).

In both cases, him avoiding Xykon because he knows Xykon would make him suffer in a fashion there's no recovery from makes sense. He either saw he would avoid Xykon to save his own behind, and followed the "script", or he saw Xykon imprisoning his soul/making him into a zombie/whatever, and acted to change that future.

On the bolded part: We see him trying (in a futile way, but trying nonetheless) to keep Belkar from killing him, only to be killed anyway ("Yeah, I wasn't really buying those theories either...worth a shot, though."). So I don't think the Oracle is capable of manipulating outcomes.

Comic for reference: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html

**Dion** · 2019-11-28, 06:15 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by The Aboleth

So I don't think the Oracle is capable of manipulating outcomes.

Sure, he doesn’t seem much smarter than Elan and and his charisma is lower than Durkon’s. He really doesn’t have the skills or the abilities to manipulate anything. There’s no way he was ever going to talk Belkar out of murder.

About the only thing he seems to have going for him is that a god tells him stuff to say sometimes.

**Roland Itiative** · 2019-11-28, 09:28 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by The Aboleth

On the bolded part: We see him trying (in a futile way, but trying nonetheless) to keep Belkar from killing him, only to be killed anyway ("Yeah, I wasn't really buying those theories either...worth a shot, though."). So I don't think the Oracle is capable of manipulating outcomes.

Comic for reference: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html

Yet he prepared a way to come back, and a way to very specifically punish Belkar, in advance, showing he can prepare for the future he sees. Honestly, I'd take a joke taken at the expense of the crazy forum theories as less representative of his abilities than the actions that do have an impact on the story.

**Squire Doodad** · 2019-11-28, 09:29 PM (ISO 8601)

The Kobolt Oracle is my favorite oracle. I love his epic blue armor with its metallic sheen.

**The Aboleth** · 2019-11-28, 11:45 PM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Roland Itiative

Yet he prepared a way to come back, and a way to very specifically punish Belkar, in advance, showing he can prepare for the future he sees. Honestly, I'd take a joke taken at the expense of the crazy forum theories as less representative of his abilities than the actions that do have an impact on the story.

I think you've misread my intended stance (probably my fault for not being more clear). I'm not suggesting the Oracle lacks the capacity to prepare in advance for certain results (like his death) or certain details/events before the results occur (starting a village to essentially screw over Belkar); I just don't believe the Oracle has the ability to manipulate the eventual, final outcome of a given prophecy (in this case, the fact that Belkar was always going to kill him).

**Anymage** · 2019-11-29, 01:14 AM (ISO 8601)

If the oracle only saw what was specifically in the visions, he wouldn't have been able to casually understand Hayley or interact with and prepare for ghost Roy. On the other hand, if he could foresee his visions happening, he wouldn't have been caught out by visitors right after he drew a bath. Trying to put together a consistent typeset beyond Rule of Funny is probably a fool's errand.

**SlashDash** · 2019-11-29, 05:32 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by ChaosSlayer

Considering that Oracle knows A LOT in advance, he must know something about Xykon that he doesn't even want to EVER meet him, even with Wiz+Cleric team standing by.
It also hints at: Oracle doesn't have any good news for Xykon.

What do you guys think?

Wonder that could possibly be...
Maybe that Xykon is the obvious antagonist of the story and is therefore going to be utterly destroyed by the end of the story?

Seems kind of obvious to me.

As for the philosophical stance of free will, I think it's safe to say that rules of drama allow certain contradictions and inconsistencies. On the one hand we see many prophecies brought out by gods* who apparently are able to see things years possibly decades in advance.

Yet on the other hand, we also see gods are fallible and can be deceived by lesser entities for example the IFCC vs Tiamat.

* I think all the oracles we've seen were divine in nature. The Kobold, the blind woman in Azure City and the priest of Odin were all divine.

The one exception is the prophecy of the guy with the goatee, but we never saw how Eugene learned about it.

**Vendanna** · 2019-11-29, 06:40 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by SlashDash

...snip...

The one exception is the prophecy of the guy with the goatee, but we never saw how Eugene learned about it.

Being a wizard that can cast divination spells, I don't think its very hard, also he could have asked a celestial about that, or a celestial wanted to give that information and told him to "tell him on your next visit", which would be similar to the deva giving eugene the letter to inform his child about V deal with the fiends.

**hroþila** · 2019-11-29, 06:54 AM (ISO 8601)

While the Oracle derives his powers from Tiamat, I don't think we can assume that Tiamat also has the same powers, that she automatically knows everything the Oracle knows or that the Oracle knows things simply because Tiamat tells him. I believe Fate is an independent force that is above the gods, much like in traditional mythologies (usually), and I believe the gods can grant spells and abilities they don't possess themselves.

**Roland Itiative** · 2019-11-30, 12:09 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by The Aboleth

I think you've misread my intended stance (probably my fault for not being more clear). I'm not suggesting the Oracle lacks the capacity to prepare in advance for certain results (like his death) or certain details/events before the results occur (starting a village to essentially screw over Belkar); I just don't believe the Oracle has the ability to manipulate the eventual, final outcome of a given prophecy (in this case, the fact that Belkar was always going to kill him).

His visions aren't limited to the questions he gets, though. As far as we know, he can and does see everything that happens on his own future, and his actions are based on said foreknowledge. This implies, as I said before, that what he sees (and does) are the best-case scenarios based on the fact that he can in fact see the future, or that he can see a version of the future, and change his actions accordingly in order to change the outcome to a different thing.

The village decision shows that. It doesn't matter if he didn't change the future to avoid his own death, what matters here is that he knew what the future was, and then took some actions that only make sense if he used future knowledge to prepare. If these actions changed the future, or were part of the future he saw from the start, is irrelevant. What matters is that his actions are dictated by his ability to see the future.

In the case of Belkar, there are the two possibilities:

1- He saw Belkar killing him and going on his merry way, and decided to change that to a situation that would punish Belkar.

2- He saw Belkar killing him, and that he should start a village to punish him for that, and he just followed the script.

In the case of Xykon, there are two possible scenarios:

1- He saw Xykon killing him in a way there was no coming back from, and thus decided to not meet Xykon at all.

2- He saw himself taking a break to avoid Xykon in order to save his own bacon, and followed the script.

Situation number 2 is the no-free-will, can't-change-the-future scenario, and the Oracle is still acting in a way that uses his access to future knowledge to his advantage, because his future presumes that he would take the best course of action to fulfil his agenda.

**The Aboleth** · 2019-11-30, 01:56 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by Roland Itiative

His visions aren't limited to the questions he gets, though. As far as we know, he can and does see everything that happens on his own future, and his actions are based on said foreknowledge.

I think the bolded part is where our disconnect lies; I don't actually believe the Oracle has seen everything regarding his future, primarily because he didn't look ahead to see if his banishing of Roy would inadvertently bypass the memory charm. So while it seems the Oracle can look into the future as much as he pleases, it appears he hasn't seen everything. His powers therefore seem to require he make a deliberate effort to see into the future--it's not an "always on" thing, in other words.

**Manga Shoggoth** · 2019-11-30, 03:54 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by The Aboleth

I think the bolded part is where our disconnect lies; I don't actually believe the Oracle has seen everything regarding his future, primarily because he didn't look ahead to see if his banishing of Roy would inadvertently bypass the memory charm. So while it seems the Oracle can look into the future as much as he pleases, it appears he hasn't seen everything. His powers therefore seem to require he make a deliberate effort to see into the future--it's not an "always on" thing, in other words.

Indeed - this is even illustrated in his first appearance: I can peer into the murky depths of the future and yet I always seem to get interrupted during bath time.

**The Pilgrim** · 2019-11-30, 05:28 AM (ISO 8601)

Originally Posted by The Aboleth

I don't actually believe the Oracle has seen everything regarding his future, primarily because he didn't look ahead to see if his banishing of Roy would inadvertently bypass the memory charm.

So many years since that strip, and it still amuses me that so many people blindly assume that the Oracle didn't let Roy bypass the Memory Charm on purpose.

**brian 333** · 2019-11-30, 05:48 AM (ISO 8601)

Perhaps the only future in which the world is not destroyed is the one where Belkar begins to evolve, and The Oracle did what he had to do start h4m on the road to redemption.

**The Aboleth** · 2019-11-30, 12:00 PM (ISO 8601)