OOTS #919 - The Discussion Thread

[Sweet_Goddess]

Easy. This is his special drama and plot division. Their primary function is not combat efficiency.
Also, more seriously, I would imagine empire-conquering armies develop tactics appropriate for fighting other armies. The deployment styles and manuvers that allow you to beat the other thousands-strong army may not be the best choice against a small handful of exceptionally competent opponents. Especially with how crazy-different the combat potential of even the fighter goes up as he levels. What works well against a couple thousand level 1 warriors may just end in a massive body count against a level 16ish fighter.

Tactics working better against large groups that are less efficient against one or two guys? INCONCEIVABLE!!!


Hey, you're the crown wearing Lich... Hello, my name is Roy Greenhilt, you killed my father's mentor, prepare to die... or at least be severely damaged so you require months of time to rebuild yourself.


Och, nay lad, I'm just mostly dead... if I were all dead, ye would have to loot muh body fer potions and diamond dust... but since ahm only mostly dead, ahm also partly alive... er undead.


You fell for one of the classic blunders... the most famous of which is never get in a land war on the Western Continent... but only slightly less well know is this... Never go up against a guy named Tarquin, when death is on the line WMAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
What, you were expecting me to fall over dead or something? I have a ring of immunity: Iocane Powder.


It not Thog's fault Thog is bigger and stronger then everyone else, Thog is non-traditional player race first added to players handbook in 3rd edition, Thog might even still have extra racial hit dice.


Mawage.... Mawage iz whad bwings uz togvah, today... in this hawwucination... wuv... twuuuuuue wuv.... and a powahfoh iwwusion spaow.


Oh, I just wear the patch cause I find it extremely comfortable, plus I think they'll be all the rage next season, players having their characters all wearing them.


I don't want anything from you anymore.
As you wish. *splorch*

With deep and sincere apologies to The Man in Black:

The Wall of Fire (sung to the tune of The Ring of Fire)

Spells are a burning thing
and it casts a firery ring
bound by the mind's desire
I cast... a Wall of Fire

I rose up and cast the Wall of Fire
I went up, up, up
and the flames went higher
And it burns, burns, burns,
the Wall of Fire
The Wall of Fire

The taste of ash is ignited
when OotS is re-united
I fell down next to Roy
Oh, but to be back is a joy

I rose up and cast the Wall of Fire
I went up, up, up
and the flames went higher
And it burns, burns, burns,
the Wall of Fire
The Wall of Fire

Awesome version... I love it.

I have iTunes running while, surfing, and I found this update. Needless to say, I now have "Ring of Fire" set to play next. :D
The Social Distortion version, not the original Johnny Cash version, if that's okay. :D
Hopefully everyone gets some nice EXP from all this carnage. :D

Originally I was going to agree with the fact that only the Johnny Cash one should count, but after checking out Social Distortions... I think either is fine, but both is even better.

Is it time for a slaughter?
It's time for a slaughter.

Just remember, you can't have Slaughter without Laughter.

Erm - Constantine maybe? Keanu was going to heaven and the devil was none too pleased. I don't think it was cancer, but I could easily be wrong.

Yes, Constantine, and yes, since Constantine sacrificed his own life to summon the Devil to stop the stupid angel and the son of the devil, Constantine's soul couldn't be taken to hell, so the Devil, knowing Constantine would corrupt his soul again, reached into his lungs and yanked out the cancer and blackened lung tissue (basically made him perfectly healthy so he wouldn't die, but would live long enough to sin more and condemn his own soul again).

A similar one might be on Supernatural where Robert 'Bobby' Singer (aka the Marty Stu of the series since he's named for one of the producers, and saves the day a lot, even after he's dead) made a Deal with Crowley (Crossroads Demon, basically a Demon of Limbo, who ended up later taking up the role of the Head Demon while the Devil was locked with Archangel Michael in a cage for all eternity) which in addition to helping save the day, and only loaning is soul to Crowley, not actually selling it, Bobby got some side benefits (improved health, some youth restored, being able to walk again after a season or three of being made a wheelchair bound paraplegic, knowledge of all kinds of stuff)... which I feel is far closer to V's deal then the events at the end of Constantine.

[Oko and Qailee]

That doesn't follow, as we now know the familicide killed many characters who were not black dragons.

While this is true, the fact that many are not black dragons is irrelevant.

Even V says so herself, that her way of thinking of dragons as nothing but blood thirsty savages is wrong.

V goofed up, thats it.

Can she atone? Yes, but it would be extremely difficult to make up for something as horrific as what she did.

Also, on topic of the favorite character tournament, I and many people didn't get to vote in that. I have 10+ buds who read OotS and the 3.5 forums, and none of them voted in it either. There's a reason random samples are used in any legitimate collection of data.

[jere7my]

Didn't the person you quoted spawn a ten-page thread, and a couple dozen posts by the Giant in opposition, arguing just that?

Nope. I'm the first person to bring it up, I'm pretty sure.

I also haven't seen anybody mention that Vaarsuvius's crime was so unforgiveable that it's literally impossible not to bring it up every time she appears in a comic. That's also a thing I am bringing up for the first time ever.

[Porthos]

Didn't the person you quoted spawn a ten-page thread, and a couple dozen posts by the Giant in opposition, arguing just that?

Sarcasm. It's not just for blue text anymore.

Nope. I'm the first person to bring it up, I'm pretty sure.

I also haven't seen anybody mention that Vaarsuvius's crime was so unforgiveable that it's literally impossible not to bring it up every time she appears in a comic. That's also a thing I am bringing up for the first time ever.

See.

[Porthos]

"Vaarsuvius can atone by performing general unrelated acts of good" and "Vaarsuvius can atone by saving the world, which since Vaarsuvius is in the world would be an act of blatant self-interest even Xykon might well perform under the right circumstances" are arguments that make no sense to me--as my phrasing might suggest.

At the risk of igniting the whole Familicide/redemption talk, there is something that has been bugging me about it the whole time.

Redemption itself.

Many people have been bringing up the words of Soon as the definitive article as how to reach redemption.

Maybe so. Certainly so from a (Lawful) Good point of view.

One problem with that. V is not, and possibly never has been, Good.

"No, stuff, Porthos. Tell us something we don't know", I hear V's detractors say.

Well, it's an important point to raise I feel.

To 'make up' for casting Familicide V might very well have to seek redress from those he's wronged.... If he was trying to get into a Good Afterlife.

But a Neutral One? Especially a True Neutral one? Then the whole "Seek to atone for an act of great evil by doing good deeds for the rest of my life" is practically written for those of a True Neutral viewpoint. Certain Druids of previous editions would certainly nod their heads in agreement.

So when we talk about 'redemption' we might want to consider 'From What Alignment Viewpoint'. I certainly agree that V is in for tough sledding to get in a Lawful Good afterlife, or any Good afterlife for that matter.

But True Neutral? That might very well still be on the cards.

I think this whole "looking at redemption from the wrong angle" is something that should at least be considered.

....

If not debated for 20 pages.

[zimmerwald1915]

So when we talk about 'redemption' we might want to consider 'From What Alignment Viewpoint'. I certainly agree that V is in for tough sledding to get in a Lawful Good afterlife, or any Good afterlife for that matter.

But True Neutral? That might very well still be on the cards.

Is alignment at the time of death the sole, or even the most important, factor in deciding one's afterlife? Is afterlife destination the metric we readers should use in judging a character?

[ti'esar]

Frankly, at this point I would probably keel over in shock if zimmerwald1915 ever said anything unqualifiedly positive about Vaarsuvius. I'm actually coming to find it quite comforting - in a comic full of plot twists and a forum bubbling with new and bizarre theories (Geoff is a simulacrum, anyone?), it's nice to have some things to rely on.

The monotonous familicide discussions are an entirely different story, of course.

And because stories focusing on repentance, reformation, and redemption are one of my favourite types. (Redcloak hasn't even started on that journey yet, but a girl can hope. And revolutionaries battling injustice is another one of my favourite plots).

This is an... interesting take on Redcloak.

[stsasser]

So far, Plan A has been a great plan.

[jere7my]

Is alignment at the time of death the sole, or even the most important, factor in deciding one's afterlife? Is afterlife destination the metric we readers should use in judging a character's moral standing?

Obviously not. It should be based solely on the number of times they derailed a discussion thread.

[Porthos]

Is alignment at the time of death the sole, or even the most important, factor in deciding one's afterlife?

Er? Yes? By RAW at least. Depending on how you want to view it, alignment at death (unless magically changed which is a whole separate discussion) is a reflection of everything one has done.

The way I read Roy's Interview With a Deva was whether or not the alignment Roy wrote down on his character sheet was his 'real' one. I read it as the Deva determining whether or not Roy was lying to himself his entire life about being Lawful Good, as proved by his actions and real intent.

But, let's face it, alignment is a thorny concept even in the best of situations. So I'll leave that as a summary and not a 20 paragraph dissertation.

[DaggerPen]

Er? Yes? By RAW at least. Depending on how you want to view it, alignment at death (unless magically changed which is a whole separate discussion) is a reflection of everything one has done.

The way I read Roy's Interview With a Deva was whether or not the alignment Roy wrote down on his character sheet was his 'real' one. I read it as whether or not the Deva was determining whether or not Roy was lying to himself his entire life about being Lawful Good, as proved by his actions and real intent.

I've also seen the theory that Roy showing up there meant he was already in, and the Deva just wanted to go over things so that he could learn some lessons and be satisfied in his alignment when he went past the giant golden gates.

[kinem]

Yes, Constantine, and yes, since Constantine sacrificed his own life to summon the Devil to stop the stupid angel and the son of the devil, Constantine's soul couldn't be taken to hell, so the Devil, knowing Constantine would corrupt his soul again, reached into his lungs and yanked out the cancer and blackened lung tissue (basically made him perfectly healthy so he wouldn't die, but would live long enough to sin more and condemn his own soul again).

The devil offered him a favor for helping to stop the devil's son. It could have been "Make me healthy so I don't die yet", but instead he used it to save his girl friend's twin sister from hell; that was the sacrifice which prevented him from going to hell

[zimmerwald1915]

Point. Edited.

[DolGrenn]

Tactics working better against large groups that are less efficient against one or two guys? INCONCEIVABLE!!!

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. (Therefore you must die)

[Newwby]

That's the V we know and love! Don't stop to think things through, just blast, blast, blast away!

This strip is extremely vindicating of my 'here comes the cavalry' comment from last strip.

New comic day is always the best day.

But True Neutral? That might very well still be on the cards.

Can we consider the extermination of so many black dragons a net 'good' result? If so then perhaps committing an act of terrible evil to accomplish something of potentially incredible good (in practice), is a net neutral action.

True neutral has always been the most esoteric of alignments to define. So many worldviews fall in to 'true neutral' and many of them are selfish behaviors.

It is all heavily determined by whether the gods weigh intent or result more than the other.

*Edit* 'Yes, sadly' is the most brilliant response to Belkar's comment I can imagine. Roy's 'fine, fine' reacton is so indictive of the dire bear of a situation the group finds themselves in. As soon as Elan & Haley penetrate the defensive line (adventurers aren't likely to drop or balk from taking a fire wall to the face) we'll actually see the Order back together!

Regardless of the imminent threat I feel that worth celebrating.

[Porthos]

Point. Edited.

Edited out on my end as well.

[Maur]

When we stop getting comics about V, we'll stop getting discussions about the one act that most defines her character, life, and impact on the world.

Her impact on the world, surely, at least for now.

Her life? No, that is the pursuit of power.

Her character? If you mean her morality, her enjoyment of the scruffy litter box was more evil than the whole familicide thng.

[Amphiox]

This discussion familicided my brain cells.

Well, they were all descended from a single common ancestor....

[Bulldog Psion]

There's only thing I have to say about this comic.

I love the smell of bat guano in the morning. Smells like ... victory.

[Amphiox]

There is a standard feature common to nearly all atonement arcs.

And that is that some people will not forgive.

When a character commits an act of depravity like V has done, no matter how sorry they are, no matter what restitution they try to give, no matter what good they subsequently do, it will not be enough for some people. There will always be some people who will see them as irredeemable. They will have their crimes thrown in their faces forever.

Bearing the unceasing condemnation and hatred and despite of those who will not forgive is part of the atonement process. And it will go on for as long as the memory of the character and the deed remains. Forever if need be.

[Scow2]

We tried that. V murdered a teenage dragon.

nerf, not newt.

V's redemption would require redeeming acts related to rejecting her atrocity: Not merely 'paying for it' (Resurrection spells don't fix everything). Especially since one of Varsuuvius' still-living victims is Tarquin (Who lost his 9th wife to the Familicide... though how willing she was is unknown). Retiring to live a "Good man's life" in a backwater area wouldn't work as redemption, but trying to physically 'undo' the damage also isn't required. Instead, the redemption needs to be about dedicating her life to eliminating the situation that lead to the Familicide being cast so irresponsibly.

Personally, I hope the New V is a lot more assertive and engaged in the world now, and gets over/has gotten over the moping permanently - Ensuring the world is safe from random acts of indiscriminate murder caused by "Kill on Sight" racial interrelation policies and short-sighted application of excessive force isn't going to happen on its own, after all.

[Forikroder]

about time V got to do something epic

[JoseB]

I literally can't make up my mind which super/action hero fanfare to play in my mind under this stirp. Go V!

Personally I'd go with "Ride of the Valkyries" (or would it be "V-alkyrie"?)

[Bulldog Psion]

Personally I'd go with "Ride of the Valkyries" (or would it be "V-alkyrie"?)

It goes right along with the bat guano quote, anyway. I like it.

Does anyone else find those fire special effects to be splendid, by the way?

[zimmerwald1915]

Ensuring the world is safe from random acts of indiscriminate murder caused by "Kill on Sight" racial interrelation policies and short-sighted application of excessive force isn't going to happen on its own, after all.

It's not going to happen at all, particularly if we're relying on people like V or Redcloak to make it so.

[Mike Havran]

I hope that between all that mushy talk about Vaarsuvius, nobody mentioned one theory about why Tarquin sends so many mooks into the meat machine.

The collective mass of their bodies is to form a landmark. And now that the handy Ring of Fire came in and encircled the enemy...

It would be such a shame if those flying units had a little something in their bags.

Spoiler

Show

Bombing run.

*And yes I know the video is not copletely appropriate but I like the song

[Forikroder]

It's not going to happen at all, particularly if we're relying on people like V or Redcloak to make it so.

pessimist : P

[Oko and Qailee]

(trying to move away from familicide discussion)

I feel like something more has to happen here. Thing is, I feel like Tarquin has to be dealt with by the end of this book, simply because it would be the ultimate defeat for him to be a side quest no more important than the bandits or kubota.

The problem, however, is that even with V, the Order stands no chance, at all, of winning. They can probably beat the entire army, but Aunt Laurin and Tarquin will massacre them.

I don't think Tarquin will let them go, I think he'll try his very best to kill the order minus Elan and Haley. If anything, killing the order is in his best interest, bc it would give Elan a HUGE reason to dedicated to defeating Tarquin.


MAYBE, the Order will go into the Rift, but it's clear Roy doesn't want that, and inside there could be a fate worse than death.

I can't really tell what's going to happen I guess

[Forikroder]

(trying to move away from familicide discussion)

so innocent...

[atatassault]

The week's long wait was totally worth the title name and the joke in the last panel.