Got a Real World Weapons or Armour Question? Mk XII

[Yora]

If I understood and remember it correctly, dogs are the only animals that can release heat through panting while they are running. Which makes them excelent hunting animals for humans, who are the only creatures that can release heat by sweating. Both humans and dogs and continue to move at a pretty decent speed until they are too tired or dehydrated, but any other big land animal is also limited by overheating.

Maybe that only becomes a serious issue on hot days and doesn't matter so much in more moderate or cool conditions.

[Beleriphon]

If I understood and remember it correctly, dogs are the only animals that can release heat through panting while they are running. Which makes them excelent hunting animals for humans, who are the only creatures that can release heat by sweating.

Actually a surprisingly large number of creatures sweat rather copiously. Horse for example are one of the only other mammals that sweat as the primary manner by which they can cool down. Most primates can sweat, and so can dogs incidentally, it just happens to be inefficient due to limited sweat glands.

[Brother Oni]

If I understood and remember it correctly, dogs are the only animals that can release heat through panting while they are running. Which makes them excelent hunting animals for humans, who are the only creatures that can release heat by sweating.

Actually we can release heat by panting as well (take a look at runners on a cold day), plus by direct contact in the lungs.

Maybe that only becomes a serious issue on hot days and doesn't matter so much in more moderate or cool conditions.

I'd agree that the ability to dissipate heat becomes less important the cooler the climate, but given the general success of early Man, I'd say it was still of some importance.

Most primates can sweat, and so can dogs incidentally, it just happens to be inefficient due to limited sweat glands.

The significantly greater insulation by fur compared to humans would also be a factor in my opinion.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Hello! First time posting here. Not specifically for gaming, but trying to write fantasy is close enough, right?

Anyway, in my book I try to avoid the general unrealistic fantasy combat concepts as much as I can. For example, the main character is relatively unskilled in combat, so he uses lighter weapons such as a buckler and 1.5 foot sword (what D20ers might call a shortsword).

Even with a 'mage' in the party, the character who most represents high fantasy in the group of main characters is Naea, a Blood Templar. The Blood Templars are a militant order of monks. In addition to skill in combat, they require expertise in a nonmartial area, Naea's being landscaping. This means the order has the best weapons and armor on the planet. In addition to that, the armor is magically blessed to be lighter, stronger, make the wearer stronger, heal quickly, sustains the wearer, and go into a divine fury thing when injured enough. Also, because it is enchanted so, the armor tends to make the wearer almost a foot taller. And Naea is 7 feet tall unarmored.

So what I'm saying is, she's really, really, inhumanly strong, and she has access to the best smiths around, with virtually unlimited resources.

Her weapon I have had some trouble with her weapon. In my mind, she has always used a two-handed sword. I know that two handed swords had to be thin so they could bend when swung, otherwise the sword would break. However, given the abilities of smithing she has access to, I would think that her blade would be a little more fantastic.

I imagine that it would be a bit thicker and taper less, given her strength, and because I also want to have her use it as a sort of blunt weapon occasionally. Unlike most real big swords, it would also lack a ricasso and parrying hooks, but she would do a lot of half-sword thrusting and mordhau (is that right?). I have several questions: How long would this sword be for someone almost 8 feet tall, how much would the above qualities make someone groan, and how would such a weapon be carried? I'm thinking a mix of blade wrapping and leather straps to carry it across her back.

[fusilier]

I imagine that it would be a bit thicker and taper less, given her strength, and because I also want to have her use it as a sort of blunt weapon occasionally. Unlike most real big swords, it would also lack a ricasso and parrying hooks, but she would do a lot of half-sword thrusting and mordhau (is that right?). I have several questions: How long would this sword be for someone almost 8 feet tall, how much would the above qualities make someone groan, and how would such a weapon be carried? I'm thinking a mix of blade wrapping and leather straps to carry it across her back.

A large blade could be slung on the back -- if you don't intend to draw it quickly, as you would have to unsling it, and then draw it.

German Landsknechts are often shown carrying their zweihander swords resting on their shoulders, kind of like carrying a musket. However, I have seen a drawing of a Landsknecht with a two handed sword on a belt, almost level across the back (at hip height). Oops, turned out it was a Swiss soldier --

http://warfare.uphero.com/Renaissance/09_Swiss.htm

(Scroll down to the woodcut drawing of six soldiers, and it is the 4th soldier from the left).

[Galloglaich]

Did you say landscaping? Maybe she should use a shrubbery :)

(sorry)

G

[warty goblin]

Did you say landscaping? Maybe she should use a shrubbery :)

(sorry)

G

When it comes to cutting evil down to size, I prefer enchanted hedge trimmers myself.


Putting the horticultural humor out to pasture for the moment and getting to the actual topic, as I recall the general conclusion we reached last time this came up was to just go with a big iron bar. At some point increasing the cutting potential of the weapon doesn't really do you much good; if it can cut the stuff it already would have. If it can't, you're better off using something built from the ground up to just break stuff.

Either that or forget the raw power, and use the extra strength, speed, lightness etc to make a very fast, precise weapon of unusual size that the magically enhanced fighter can wield like a lesser combatant handles a regular sized longsword. Fight smarter, not harder.

[Mr Beer]

I mean, if you give me the choice between walking 20 miles carrying 50 pounds of gear and riding that distance, I'll take the horse. If that's harder on the horse than it would be on me, I can live with that.

This is completely logical and I suspect a good part of why horses were used. People may have been significantly fitter than modern day humans, that doesn't mean they viewed a 20 mile hike with particular relish.

[Brother Oni]

When it comes to cutting evil down to size, I prefer enchanted hedge trimmers myself.

Power Word Ni also helps.

Putting the horticultural humor out to pasture for the moment and getting to the actual topic, as I recall the general conclusion we reached last time this came up was to just go with a big iron bar. At some point increasing the cutting potential of the weapon doesn't really do you much good; if it can cut the stuff it already would have. If it can't, you're better off using something built from the ground up to just break stuff.

The other problem I think we hit upon, was that if the strength was significantly superhuman, melee weaponry was pointless compared to throwing rocks really hard.
The armour would also have to enchance the durability of the wearer, else she's going to break bones whenever she connects with something at full strength.

Either that or forget the raw power, and use the extra strength, speed, lightness etc to make a very fast, precise weapon of unusual size that the magically enhanced fighter can wield like a lesser combatant handles a regular sized longsword. Fight smarter, not harder.

I agree that an extremely long weapon would be very useful here - from the last time I crunched some numbers, for two swordsmen performing the same swing in the same time, doubling the weapon length doubles the tip speed. Facing someone being able to handle a zweihander like a shortsword would be very intimidating.
As an aside, such a long weapon probably wouldn't be very sharp as it both wouldn't need to be, plus it limits the ability to use half-sword techniques (awkwardness of weapon length would still be an issue, regardless of the effective weight).

[endoperez]

Just as an aside, the Blood Templar will need a shorter weapon too. The sword is going to be too big to be used indoors. Will he be lugging around two swords, or a sword and a spear/polearm of some sort? Or perhaps the short weapon would be a mace, for use against armored targets?

Edit:
Also, here's a really cool video of a guy practicing swordsmanship on his own, using ever bigger swords. The last one is already quite huge, though.
http://vimeo.com/14262468

[Brother Oni]

Just as an aside, the Blood Templar will need a shorter weapon too. The sword is going to be too big to be used indoors.

Not if half-swording techniques are used. Bear in mind that she's 7 foot tall unarmoured, 8 with the armour, so you're essentially looking at a W40K Astartes in terms of size (although not quite as bulky).

Spoiler

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In any environment where she can move freely, the length of her sword is unlikely to be an issue and if it's too cramped for her then the length is going to be more useful as she starts using it like a spear instead.

I've just noticed that we've failed to answer the question asked - suppose we use a zweihander (1.8m) as a base for a 2m human, scaling it up to a ~2.5m human would make it 2.25m long, so nearly half a metre longer in length.

This would make it about the length of a medium spear or ~3/4 the length of a short pike, so I wouldn't be surprised if some spear or other polearm techniques showed up in her fighting style (in addition to the half swording). Mordhau techniques are reportedly only tend to be used against armoured opponents or as a surprise tactic, but I don't have much knowledge of them.

[Autolykos]

If you're half-swording a lot anyway, why not go even more in the polearm direction, and mount a regular long sword (or 2h sword) blade on top of a stick, either like a swordstaff or a nagamaki. That is, if you want to go the elegant route.
If you want to do what's efficient with absurd strength levels, just take an oversized two-handed mace, and/or use iron cannon balls as throwing weapons.

[Brother Oni]

If you're half-swording a lot anyway, why not go even more in the polearm direction, and mount a regular long sword (or 2h sword) blade on top of a stick, either like a swordstaff or a nagamaki. That is, if you want to go the elegant route.

That's probably what I would do (plus I like using spears, staves and other long weapons ).

Ninjaxenomorph appears to have his heart set on a two-handed sword for his character though, so we're offering suggestions based on that.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Yep. 2-handed sword. Already have a pole arm user.

What I imagine the Blood Templars go for is basically overkill, since what they might be facing REQUIRES overkill sometimes. They might be quelling a civil war, or they might be fighting a bestial dragon offshoot.

One of the man foes I have are a hive-minded species, who have natural armor that is harder than diamond, yet can be sharper than obsidian. However, she uses the sword to knock them down when she cannot get a killing blow.

Also, she carries just the one weapon, and maybe a knife for utility. If she really needs a ranged weapon, as you said throwing rocks works quite well. If something gets too close for the sword, she just punches it.

I have thought about other members of Naea's order, and combining a shortspear/mace and shield is a popular set of equipment.

One of the other aspects of the world is the resident nonhuman race, the Umber Shades. I based them off Greek and Precolonial American civilizations. They prefer (and have to, in some cases) to use more primitive weaponry. That said, they do have metalworking. The most advanced subset of the race, who lives around an active, open volcano, are the few that wear heavier metal armor and use mostly-metal weapons. They do prefer to use forward-bladed weapons like kukris and falcatas, but I can see them also using more advanced macuahuitl.

[Brother Oni]

One of the man foes I have are a hive-minded species, who have natural armor that is harder than diamond, yet can be sharper than obsidian. However, she uses the sword to knock them down when she cannot get a killing blow.

I'd hate to see the predator that natural armour was evolved to defend against.

Cutting weapons would also be one of the worst weapons to use, unless the blade was enchanted sufficiently to be able to actually cut the aforementioned armour. Blunt weapons would be ideal as their main damage is caused by kinetic energy into the softer underlying tissues.

Edit: As for overkill, crew served weapons like ballistae or mangonels (or your world's equivalent) or siege weaponry as the basic response to anything, would be a good start. Bonus marks if a Blood Paladin is capable of single-handedly carrying and operating a ballistae by themselves or use a 2,000lb draw siege crossbow as a personal sidearm.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I'd hate to see the predator that natural armour was evolved to defend against.

Aheheheheh.

The species in question, Atherites, are supposed to be a new thing, so nothing has really been designed to attack them. They are really wierd, existing partially in another dimension, and coming from space. What isn't carapace (anything on the body that would move) is shadowy morass that can be severed. Their whole bodies dissolve a few minutes after death and is reabsorbed into their collective.

I was thinking about having longbow Templars, which would basically mean a small-scale ballista.

One thing: this world doesn't have horses, or indeed any ungulates, and mounted combat is almost unheard of. Most travel is by foot or by boat, and there are beasts of burden, but they are mostly large capybara-like rodents. Would this make for an increase of infantry formations?

[warty goblin]

I'd hate to see the predator that natural armour was evolved to defend against.

Cutting weapons would also be one of the worst weapons to use, unless the blade was enchanted sufficiently to be able to actually cut the aforementioned armour. Blunt weapons would be ideal as their main damage is caused by kinetic energy into the softer underlying tissues.

Diamond hardness isn't that big a problem for a weapon defeat. Hard things tend to be brittle, so wang 'em a good one upside the exoskeleton and they'll split.

Edit: As for overkill, crew served weapons like ballistae or mangonels (or your world's equivalent) or siege weaponry as the basic response to anything, would be a good start. Bonus marks if a Blood Paladin is capable of single-handedly carrying and operating a ballistae by themselves or use a 2,000lb draw siege crossbow as a personal sidearm.

Siege engines are heavy. Really, really heavy. Also large and awkward. Even at nine feet tall, your common or garden catapult is going to be two or three times the Blood Paladin's size easily, and made out of something dense like oak. Even if a single individual could haul the barmy thing - which I doubt - they'd also need to be able to assemble it. Unless your enemies like to give you a couple hours before launching their attack so you can hammer all the pegs into the holes, I don't think it's a particularly wise investment for a personnel-scale weapon.

What you want is a sling. Human powered and sized slings are damaging enough. With the extra oomph provided by a longer cord and heavier projectile, they'd be bloody murder. Plus they make an excellent fashion accessory.

Aheheheheh.

The species in question, Atherites, are supposed to be a new thing, so nothing has really been designed to attack them. They are really wierd, existing partially in another dimension, and coming from space. What isn't carapace (anything on the body that would move) is shadowy morass that can be severed. Their whole bodies dissolve a few minutes after death and is reabsorbed into their collective.

I think we have basically crossed that hard-to-define line where realism is a particularly important concern. The Rubicon of nitpicking if you will.

I was thinking about having longbow Templars, which would basically mean a small-scale ballista.

That said, because I love to nitpick, don't make 'em out of wood. I suspect that, tough as wood is, at the scale of a longbow for an eight foot tall super-human, the bow would simply tear apart with frightening regularity. Note that most ballista were powered not by flexible wooden arms, but essentially rigid ones compressing coils of horsehair or sinew. For a bow, I'd go with steel, since the sinew coil is probably not particularly easy to integrate into a handheld weapon.

One thing: this world doesn't have horses, or indeed any ungulates, and mounted combat is almost unheard of. Most travel is by foot or by boat, and there are beasts of burden, but they are mostly large capybara-like rodents. Would this make for an increase of infantry formations?

How else are people going to fight? Combat piggyback riding?

[AgentPaper]

One thing: this world doesn't have horses, or indeed any ungulates, and mounted combat is almost unheard of. Most travel is by foot or by boat, and there are beasts of burden, but they are mostly large capybara-like rodents. Would this make for an increase of infantry formations?

It's hard to say for sure, but I would expect a lot more emphasis on ranged combat. With no cavalry to close with them, they would have pretty much free range to bombard the enemy even from relatively close range. As a response, infantry would necessarily become more heavily armored with larger shields to block them. I'd suggest looking at how armies operated in the ancient persian, greek, and roman armies, all of which came before cavalry really started to dominate the battlefield.

[Spiryt]

That said, because I love to nitpick, don't make 'em out of wood. I suspect that, tough as wood is, at the scale of a longbow for an eight foot tall super-human, the bow would simply tear apart with frightening regularity. Note that most ballista were powered not by flexible wooden arms, but essentially rigid ones compressing coils of horsehair or sinew. For a bow, I'd go with steel, since the sinew coil is probably not particularly easy to integrate into a handheld weapon.

It is not going to be much better with steel though.

People are experiencing problems with bending steel prods more than few inches, and it was probably a problem in 'period' as well.

Other than that, steel is obviously awfully heavy, and this problem would be only worse in bigger scale.

[warty goblin]

It is not going to be much better with steel though.

People are experiencing problems with bending steel prods more than few inches, and it was probably a problem in 'period' as well.

Other than that, steel is obviously awfully heavy, and this problem would be only worse in bigger scale.

Sounds like a job for composite materials. Use a thin steel spine, laminate with minotaur horn down the back, and wrap the whole thing in dragon wing sinew. To soften dragon sinew, you of course need a giant to chew it, and you'd probably leviathan bones for the glue.

As an added benefit, every time they catch sight of your weapon, not one, not two, but three species of powerful supernatural creature will want to hang you upside down from the nearest tree and beat you like a pinata. Keeps life interesting

[Ninjaxenomorph]

How else are people going to fight? Combat piggyback riding?

Pigs don't exist either The only faction that uses mounts are the forest shades, and they use giant rats.

I was specifically referring to Roman Legionnaire-style tactics. The two main cultures in the world are inspired by the Roman Empire and feudal China-Japan mix. Cerestium (The Roman inspired empire) has access to more land, but has trouble keeping its territories. Gien Lao, the other empire, is a more centralized industrial nation. The two are separated by an ocean, so lots of naval warfare.

Without mounted combat, blades in general would be shorter and not curved, right? I know the scimitar was designed to be swung from horseback, and polearms such as the naginata was for troops to attack mounted foes.

[AgentPaper]

The species in question, Atherites, are supposed to be a new thing, so nothing has really been designed to attack them. They are really wierd, existing partially in another dimension, and coming from space. What isn't carapace (anything on the body that would move) is shadowy morass that can be severed. Their whole bodies dissolve a few minutes after death and is reabsorbed into their collective.

Hm, my first instinct for a response would be to use the creature's own hides to create new weapons. This is hampered by them dissolving, but perhaps you could come up with some magicky way of keeping them alive while in sword or spear form.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Hm, my first instinct for a response would be to use the creature's own hides to create new weapons. This is hampered by them dissolving, but perhaps you could come up with some magicky way of keeping them alive while in sword or spear form.

Oh, that's easy. You have to gain their trust and they begin replacing body parts with their carapace, which begins replacing the rest of your body.

[Spiryt]

"Scimitar" is pretty much word for everything and for nothing, as far as I can see...

For pretty much any 'curved and, uh, Middle Eastern' blade.

Plenty of 'scimitars' were probably used on feet a lot.

Same thing with polerams, against mounted threats.

[Brother Oni]

What you want is a sling. Human powered and sized slings are damaging enough. With the extra oomph provided by a longer cord and heavier projectile, they'd be bloody murder. Plus they make an excellent fashion accessory.

Aaaaand we're back to throwing rocks.

Without mounted combat, blades in general would be shorter and not curved, right? I know the scimitar was designed to be swung from horseback, and polearms such as the naginata was for troops to attack mounted foes.

As Agent Paper said, without means to quickly close distances, ranged combat would be far more important.

The feudal China influenced society would have a very long history of crossbows: link.

[Spiryt]

As Agent Paper said, without means to quickly close distances, ranged combat would be far more important.

The feudal China influenced society would have a very long history of crossbows: link.

I don't think that it can be simplified to this either.

After all, in Hundred Years War, the French actually dismounted quite a few times, trying to respond to archer fire.

And Romans Empire at height of it's power didn't really bother with ranged combat, most pila were being lobed from extremely quick distance after all.

Artillery was employed a lot and often, though, I guess.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

That's convenient. The 'mage' in the party is from Cerestium, but is met in Gien Lao, and he uses and advanced crossbow. He also uses elemental bolts, but that's because magic.

[warty goblin]

Aaaaand we're back to throwing rocks.

Warfare is, when you boil it down, basically a problem of throwing rocks. Since the neolithic, we've just started using more complicated rocks and rock-throwers is all.

[endoperez]

Before horses were big enough to ride on, people used them to draw chariots. I'm not sure of all the details, but at least some war chariots small things with a driver and a warrior, where the warrior was armed with a bow and preferred to use that.

[fusilier]

"Scimitar" is pretty much word for everything and for nothing, as far as I can see...

For pretty much any 'curved and, uh, Middle Eastern' blade.

Plenty of 'scimitars' were probably used on feet a lot.

Same thing with polerams, against mounted threats.

And then there are other curved blades, like falchions and cutlasses (and messers), which were used on foot.