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    redface Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimeryan View Post
    They suffer from the same thing all the martial classes do; lack of agency and lack of interesting play (largely a result of the former, but also because the basic loop of 'I attack' is kind of dull).
    That they also suffer on numbers is just the cherry on top.

    If WotC developed the skill system both inside and outside of combat then this may all change. I would probably argue that Rogues shouldn't be the only ones with good skills out of the martials though, in that case (Bard not being martial). Expertise is really where all skills should be (i.e., proficiency should be doubled when applied to skills the character is proficient in); I would probably have that baseline and give Rogues something interesting in its place (this being in the aforementioned developed skill system, so what that would be is either non-skill related as it isn't needed or would be related to the new system preferably in a non-numeric function).
    This here is a classic example of expectations colouring the Rogue in a worse light than they deserve.

    Expertise raising the bar on what constitutes being good at a Skill absolutely should not make doubled proficiency the baseline available to all classes. Baseline Proficiency does that and your GM shouldn't be artificially raising that bar in an attempt to "challenge" the Rogue; they should be allowing the Rogue to be better than everyone else.

    Martials doing no more than "just attack", meaning lack of agency, sounds more like a player and/or scenario issue. Just because there's no spell descriptions telling you what you can or can't do, doesn't mean you don't have agency.
    Last edited by JellyPooga; 2024-04-23 at 11:12 AM.
    I apologise if I come across daft. I'm a bit like that. I also like a good argument, so please don't take offence if I'm somewhat...forthright.

    Please be aware; when it comes to 5ed D&D, I own Core (1st printing) and SCAG only. All my opinions and rulings are based solely on those, unless otherwise stated. I reserve the right of ignorance of errata or any other source.