Quote Originally Posted by Skrum View Post
I mean, 5e did do a good job of making (almost) every option playable. Rogue isn't useless and even I, who thinks rogue is the weakest class, don't think its utterly without value or unplayable or something. But a class has to get the ignoble spot of Worst, and rogue has a lot of problems.

I'll even add this: a game where the entire party was rogues and the DM was catering to rogue strengths, that sounds like a blast. A kind of open world, semi-realism type game, rogue would excel. Unfortunately though that's really not what other classes do, and most games aren't run that way. Between the lack of resources and the heavy skill focus, rogue is literally built like the game isn't played the way it's played.
Yeah I get 'one must be bottom thing' I just don't think it should be Rogue.

As for how Rogues do in games, I've never seen a Rogue do poorly (outside of die rolls) and I've never encountered a player dissatisfied with a work. Small sample size, but it's probably a couple dozen, probably more, at this point either playing with them or DMing them, leaving my experience actually playing them aside.



Rogues can't shove and grapple very well cause they don't have extra attack. Fighters don't get expertise but they are often str focused and they get twice as many tries as rogue - or more likely, can shove and still attack once. Rogues have to commit their entire action.
Extra Attack is nice, but it Grapple/Shove was brought up in context of helping out team mates/contributing outside of hitting and a Rogue is pretty darn good at knocking someone over or locking them down. They can't do it all in one turn, but most likely those that will be dedicating their entire turn to it as well.

Remember, I didn't say they were the best at it, but Expertise and the ability to close large gaps in a single turn and still do it makes them better than most at it. Heck, they're a great dip to take for those looking to be good at it with Extra Attack too.

Evasion is a good ability, no question. But it doesn't come up all the time
Of course

Uncanny Dodge is good, if the tactic is to only occasionally get tagged and then run away. So, it works for rogue in a narrow sense: but it means rogues have terrible presence. And if rogue is always running away, well I hope your teammates can take hits. Rogue can't tank or CC and their damage is middling. That's not a great place to be.
Yes, Uncanny Dodge makes skirmishing whilst risking OAs work well. However, being able to halve attack damage on demand is a fantastic defense and they have a good enough AC and enough hit points that, when combined with Uncanny Dodge, they can step in at the front for a few rounds as an substitute tank pretty handily.

I'm assuming all of this criticism is of the main chassis, because the subclasses most definitely cover some of these complaints, but in no way shape or form is Sneak Attack Rogue damage 'middling' unless a table is consistently running considerably tougher than average or the party is engaging in a competition involving a wall and bodily fluid regarding damage.