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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DrowGirl

    Join Date
    Jul 2019

    Default Re: What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    I've only ever experienced this narrative here and in certain other 'optimization' circles and it basically boils down to them 'not doing enough damage' or 'not having avenues to increase damage much' a lot of the time. I don't think either of those arguments hold water, much like I don't agree with the hate the Monk class gets in the same circles. There are aspects to both classes that are difficult to represent in 'look at my math!' type arguments and some folks on the internet have expectations of damage completely divorced from what the game expects and instead get caught up in class to class comparisons and 'well a martial is meant to deal damage!'
    I mean, 5e did do a good job of making (almost) every option playable. Rogue isn't useless and even I, who thinks rogue is the weakest class, don't think its utterly without value or unplayable or something. But a class has to get the ignoble spot of Worst, and rogue has a lot of problems.

    I'll even add this: a game where the entire party was rogues and the DM was catering to rogue strengths, that sounds like a blast. A kind of open world, semi-realism type game, rogue would excel. Unfortunately though that's really not what other classes do, and most games aren't run that way. Between the lack of resources and the heavy skill focus, rogue is literally built like the game isn't played the way it's played.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    Between Uncanny Dodge and Evasion their defenses are pretty solid (and with mundane gear they're looking at a low-effort AC 17 top). They won't do it all day but they can fill in for frontline pretty well and can be built to do it even better.

    And with how Grapple/Shove works in 5e, Expertise lets them excel at it with really minimal investment.
    Rogues can't shove and grapple very well cause they don't have extra attack. Fighters don't get expertise but they are often str focused and they get twice as many tries as rogue - or more likely, can shove and still attack once. Rogues have to commit their entire action.

    Evasion is a good ability, no question. But it doesn't come up all the time

    Uncanny Dodge is good, if the tactic is to only occasionally get tagged and then run away. So, it works for rogue in a narrow sense: but it means rogues have terrible presence. And if rogue is always running away, well I hope your teammates can take hits. Rogue can't tank or CC and their damage is middling. That's not a great place to be.
    Last edited by Skrum; 2024-04-22 at 08:58 PM.