Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai View Post
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These two comments seem at odds to me. On the one hand, the mere existence of other planes of existence means that characters should consider going to the other planes when generating their characters. On the other hand, the mere existence of other planes of existence should not lead anyone to assume that they will travel there during the game.

Seems Stoutstein is closer than you're giving him credit for.
There is nothing paradoxical about noting that possible actions and actual actions are different: there being a mountain on the horizon means I can consider climbing it as soon as I know it is possible to climb mountains, it does not mean I will climb that mountain or even always be in the condition to climb that mountain regardless of everything else I might choose to do.

Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Samurai
If casting Plane Shift is the only way forward, then you are arguing for the exact type of fragile linear script you're arguing against here.
I'm not arguing for any given method to be the only way to do anything - the same points apply even if there are multiple methods to do any given thing. Again: players can blow all their options. It's perfectly fair to go "you didn't take any of the choices that'd allow you to pursue this goal, either call it quits or pick another goal".

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Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
If that point of failure is PC creation it's a big ol failure in my book. it's shifting all the decisions to non game elements and onto rules. I don't consider anything you do prior to
the point character are making in game choices as actual game play. You shouldn't exclude over half the classes from a core part of the setting just because they don't have spells.
Yes, having all strategic decisions front-loaded before play starts is not great. Is that usually the case for Plane Shift? Last I checked, it isn't, it's a late character option that can reached even by a character that starts as a non-caster via multi-classing. Sticking to a character that can never get Plane Shift isn't a choice you make at level 1, it's one you make continuously during play as you choose other advancement options.

Furthermore, half of classes not gaining a thing is not the same as half of characters being excluded. If a character is part of group, it's sufficient for one member of that group to be able to supply the thing. The example of Plane Shift is a strategic resource that not everyone needs to have in order to benefit from it, and the consideration for some people in a group to NOT have it stems from the incentive towards specialization. Such strategic considerations are very much part of gameplay, regardless of when exactly they happen.