The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas

[Jasdoif]

The Index of the Giant's Comments VI
Version 6.12

with thanks to Xapi, B.Dandelion, ChristianSt, & theangelJean
and to Jesse Baruffi and David Lawrence of Geekademia
and special thanks to Rich Burlew and ThePhantasm

Except we know the answer....

How to Contribute: Suggest new quotes to be included! Read the guidelines first. Then, when suggesting a new quote, also mention the number of the current comic if possible, as well as a brief summary of what it says. The more helpful information you give, the easier the Index can be updated.

The Index provides easy access to direct statements about the Order of the Stick comic from its author, for the purpose of forum discussion. It is intended as a research aid; its entertainment value as a trivia collection is incidental.

Spoiler: Index Guidelines (PLEASE READ - Updated 04/03/2023)

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These rules were decided by forum vote. They specify what sorts of comments are suitable for inclusion in the Index and what sorts are not. This thread is run by its caretaker in accordance with forumgoer consensus.

Rule A: The quote or comment must still be accessible online.

1) | This includes the use of The Internet Wayback Machine and other methods of accessing comments that may not still exist in the archive.

2) | This does not include second-hand sources, like "I remember Rich said this, but the thread does not exist anymore." Even if you are 100% certain Rich said that, if the quote is not demonstrable or provable it cannot be included.

3) | This does not include Rich's commentary in books or in any medium that cannot be legally accessed for free.

Rule B: The Index is for collecting only quotes that have to do with the Order of the Stick comic or other fiction works by Rich Burlew.

1) | This excludes non-comic-related opinions, statements, etc. from Rich. So if he says "I like Italian food" or something like that, it is not to be included.

2) | This may include information related to the comic, like Rich's views on Dungeons and Dragons, book publishing, art design, etc. . . so long as these quotes are still within the sphere of comic-related discussion. Uncertainty should be decided by thread poster consensus.

3) | This excludes GiTP forum rules, updates, or general information. That is for the admins and mods to publicize and spread word about, not this index.

Rule C: The index is a forum tool, meant primarily to provide easy access to direct statements from the author for the purpose of forum discussion. Thus, while the index may be fun to read through on a whim, this is not its primary purpose or focus - it is a research aid more than it is a trivia collection. It is for discussions more than it is for leisurely reading. (rescinded as rule on 12/16/2014)

Rule D: If two quotes seem to contradict each other, only the quote that illustrates Rich's most recent and current opinion or position will be included. The index is not meant to be a complete collection for leisurely reading. It is meant to be an accurate research aid for forum discussions. (reference to rescinded rule removed on 12/16/2014)

Rule E: Quotes that contain redundant information need not be included. This reduces clutter. The quote should only be included if it provides new information or clarity, or if it expounds upon information included in a prior comment. This reduces clutter. The quote should only be included if it provides new information or clarity, or if it expounds upon information included in a prior comment.

Rule F: The index-keeper (Jasdoif) has the job of updating the index in keeping with thread-goer consensus.

1) | He/She may reorganize the index if deemed necessary, though all reorganizations can be reversed by majority vote.

2) | He/She may immediately add a comment to the index without any vote, discussion, or consensus required if the comment obviously is in accordance with these agreed rules.

3) | He/She may never fully "reject" a comment's inclusion, however, he/she may postpone its inclusion until further discussion (and, if the divide in opinion appears even, a vote) decides the matter.

4) | If a comment's inclusion is uncertain, a vote requires a majority. If there is a tie the comment will not be included. Remember, the purpose of the discussions and votes are to reach some measure of consensus, not division. (updated on 04/03/2023)

Rule G: Transcripts of Q&As with Rich Burlew may be included, in their entirety, in additional posts to the Index. Rule A applies as normal, but all other Rules may be varied contingent on community acceptance. Quotes can be added to the Index proper from the Q&As. This is not considered redundancy for the purposes of Rule E.

Rule H: To reduce how many posts in the thread are consumed by votes instead of discussion, normal changes to the Index are done in groups of quotes.

1) | General Update Procedure (updated on 04/03/2023)

• Any update to the Index requires community support. Additions will only be voted on if discussion doesn't reveal a clear and strong consensus; removals are always voted on.
• If a vote is necessary for any additions, the curator will call for voting on those additions. At the curator's discretion, posts in the discussion that qualify as votes may be counted as votes; these posts will be noted when the vote is called for. Further discussion, beyond reiterating personal reasons for voting alongside the vote, is discouraged while the vote is going on. Addition must "win" a majority (by at least one vote) for the quote to be added.
• If any quote removals have community support, the curator will call for voting on those removals, separately from any voting for additions. Removal must "win" a majority (by at least one vote) for the quote to be removed.

2) | Special Update Cases

• If the curator finds a quote to be clearly aligned with the agreed-upon thread rules, the quote may be immediately added to the update queue. When the update cycle happens, the quote is still held to usual procedure with regards to possible votes on additions.
• If the curator finds an already-present quote to be unequivocally violating the agreed-upon thread rules, most likely if the cited quote ceases being available online, the quote may be removed immediately without regard to the update cycle.

Spoiler: Old Inclusion Text (Rescinded 07/22/2016)

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The inclusion procedure below was proposed and adopted in a more informal fashion than the rules above, but still represents how this community project is expected to be run with regards to including new quotes.

Participating doesn't require an understanding of this procedure: we discuss the merits of quotes after they're proposed in the usual forum fashion, and the curator will call for nominations or votes at the appropriate time.

But for those interested in the details:

• Quotes with a clear consensus to include or exclude after discussion will be included in or excluded from the next update, as appropriate.
• Quotes the curator deems clearly aligned with the inclusion guidelines will default to be included in the next update without needing extended discussion, but may be voted upon at the time of the update (see below).
• Quotes without a clear consensus to include/exclude after discussion will default to be included in the next update, but may be voted upon at the time of the update (see below).
• Updates will happen when there are six quotes ready to be included or if it has been two months since the last update.
• When an impending update is announced by the curator, and prior to the update being done, people can PM the curator requesting a vote on the particular "default" inclusion quote(s) (the quotes with strong consensus to include do not need to be voted on). Two separate posters must request a vote on a quote for it to occur, otherwise the quote will be included.
• If a vote is necessary, the curator will call for voting on all quotes set to be voted upon. Discussion, beyond reiterating personal reasons for voting alongside the vote, is discouraged while the vote is going on. Per thread rules, to be included a quote must "win" a majority by at least 2 votes.
• Only votes called for by the curator are binding.

Spoiler: Table of Contents

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• FIRST POST
  
  • Latest Updates
  • Alignment
    
    • General Information
    • D&D Alignment
    • Specific Characters
      
      • Evil Characters
      • Good Characters
      • Neutral Characters
  • Visual Art
    
    • General
    • Drawing
    • Art & Magic
    • Art & Merchandise
  • D&D Rules and Explanations
    
    • Accuracy
    • Characters: Items and Stats
      
      • Order of the Stick
      • Other Characters/Creatures
    • Combat Scenes
• SECOND POST
  
  • Story, Plot, and Characters
    
    • General Information
    • Vampirism
    • The Gates and their History
    • Familicide
    • Calendars, Dates, Maps
    • Culture, Religion and the Afterlife
    • Reading Too Much Into It
  • Character Development and Backstory
    
    • The Order of the Stick
    • Vector Legion
    • Other Characters
• THIRD POST
  
  • Writing
    
    • Storytelling Mistakes?
    • Plot Holes
    • Writing Process
    • Tools and Logistics
    • Forum and Reader Reactions
    • References and Influences
    • Story Development
    • Reflections from the Author
    • Real World Intent
    • Character Naming
    • The Story as a D&D Spoof
  • Supporting the Strip
    
  • Spoilers from Book/PDF Content
    
    • Start of Darkness
      
    • Snips, Snails and Dragon Tails
      
    • How the Paladin Got His Scar
      
    • Kickstarter Bonus PDFs
      
• FOURTH POST
  
  • Thread History
    

Latest Updates
🍌Elan and Nale are Tarquin's Only Children(#8) "...Tarquin would have been highly aware of the fact that multiple children means multiple heirs...a potential threat to him."	#1291	2023/11/30
🍍🍌Elan is (Still) Chaotic Good Elan let Tarquin fall because he was using a different interpretation of Chaotic Good. See also here, about the similar situation with Nale.	#1291	2023/11/30
🍌Malack (and Nergal) are Evil(#12) "He never actually says that either he or Nergal is Neutral, merely that it would be logically consistent if they were."	#1291	2023/11/30
🍌On Death Gods and Neutrality(#12) "What Malack says is entirely reasonable, but so is the idea that a culture could fear death so much that they conceive its personification as inherently malevolent...."	#1291	2023/11/30
🍌On Not Updating Past D&D 3.5(#1) "...I feel absolutely great about sticking with 3.5".	#1291	2023/11/30
🍌On What Makes Good Magic for a Story(#2) "I like my magic like I like my Star Trek technology: Full of nonsense terms that the audience has to infer the meaning of based on contextual clues."	#1291	2023/11/30
🍍🍌On the Forum and the Comic(#9) "I don't read the GITP forums at all anymore, either in or out of the OOTS context." See also here and here.	#1291	2023/11/30
🍌Selecting the Northern Deities(#6) "I mostly worked backwards from how I wanted the vote in the Godsmoot to shake out".	#1291	2023/11/30
🍍🍌The Comic Cannot Be Posted on a Consistent Basis(#9) "What you're suggesting is not something I can actually do." See also here(#10) ("So the remainder of the comic is going to take as long as it takes....")	#1291	2023/11/30
🍌The Giant on Using Elan as His Avatar(#5) "...for situations where the character image is going to...possibly be interpreted by newcomers as a depiction of me, I think it's better for everyone if I...use someone who matches me demographically."	#1291	2023/11/30
🍌Wrecan is a Crusader Also, Tarquin wasn't envisioned as a swordsage.	#1291	2023/11/27

Spoiler: Alignment

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General Information
The Morality of Deception "Taking advantage of someone is neither Good nor Evil, inherently. What matters is what you take advantage of them for."	#981	2015/04/28
"Lovable" Does Not Mean "Not Evil" Case in point, Thog.	#936	2014/01/11
Genocide is Always Evil See also here.	#935	2013/12/24
Alignment and Authorial Intent What does the Giant mean when he says X character is Y alignment?	#903	2013/07/23
Azure City's Chaotic Government Azure City's chaotic government (under Shojo) was still good, not evil.	#891	2013/06/06
Alignment and Environment Enor and Gannji were not operating wholly outside the ethical framework of the Empire of Blood. This doesn't change the nature of their acts but does mean that the acts are not as indicative of their overall alignment as some might suppose.	#812	2011/10/25

D&D Alignment
🍌On Death Gods and Neutrality(#12) "What Malack says is entirely reasonable, but so is the idea that a culture could fear death so much that they conceive its personification as inherently malevolent...."	#1291	2023/11/30
Usefulness of the alignment system in D&D games A great aid for teaching new inexperienced players how to roleplay.	#921	2013/09/29
"Lawful" vs "Legal" More here and here.	#891	2013/06/03
D&D's Alignment System Thoughts on how it could be improved.	#838	2012/02/18
About Lawful Alignments On being Lawful in D&D and the OOTS.	#281	2006/02/15

Specific Characters
Evil Characters
🍌Malack (and Nergal) are Evil(#12) "He never actually says that either he or Nergal is Neutral, merely that it would be logically consistent if they were."	#1291	2023/11/30
Everyone on Tarquin's Team is Evil And Tarquin is kind of like the Elan of their team. See also: here.	#934	2013/12/08
Redcloak is Evil More here(#5) ("If you're reading Redcloak's dialogue and uncritically accepting every word of it, you're overlooking one of his defining character traits: that he cloaks his vile actions in lofty rhetoric to convince himself that he is morally and ethically superior to the likes of Xykon.") and here(#9) ("...furious about getting less even if one slice was technically enough to survive on....")	#830	2012/01/23
Tarquin is Lawful Evil	#763	2010/12/07
Belkar is Chaotic Evil	#251	2005/12/01
Nale, Sabine, and Thog are all Evil	#142	2005/01/20
Good Characters
🍍🍌Elan is (Still) Chaotic Good Elan let Tarquin fall because he was using a different interpretation of Chaotic Good. See also here, about the similar situation with Nale.	#1291	2023/11/30
Haley is Chaotic Good	#936	2014/01/12
Shojo is Chaotic Good	#891	2013/06/05
Durkon is Lawful Good	#798	2011/07/27
Neutral Characters
Girard is Chaotic Neutral	#980	2015/04/25
Who Else is Neutral A long list of Neutral characters in the comic. See also here and here(#2) ("...most normal mortal people are True Neutral...").	#903	2013/07/22
Enor & Gannji are True Neutral	#812	2011/10/24
V is True Neutral (and Always Was) "Vaarsuvius was never Neutral Good"; strip #11 does not suggest otherwise.	#801	2011/08/17

Spoiler: Visual Art

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General
Azurite Hair is Naturally Blue(#9) "... I decided to riff on Emerald City from The Wizard of Oz and make almost everything blue, including the hair of many of its inhabitants."	#1232	2021/04/27
The Julio Scoundrél story in Snips, Snails and Dragon Tales Indirectly Inspired the New Art Style(#5) "...I guess it was a test bed, but it wasn't an intentional one at the time."	#1208	2020/07/31
An Order of the Stick Animated Series?(#9) "It's not a thing I'm pursuing at this time."	#1193	2020/03/01
Order of the Stick Won't Be Remastered(#8) "...it is what it is, in all its deeply flawed glory." See also here ("I could see myself doing clean-up on the odd mouth here or there, but probably not a full redraw").	#1193	2020/03/01
"How the Paladin Got His Scar" is in the New Art Style As everything going forward will be, unless it's meant to be inserted in the middle of older art. Also, How the Paladin Got His Scar is in grayscale instead of bluescale, because the color-less art's reliance on dark separating lines didn't work out with a single blue color.	#1042	2016/07/03
Why Some Wounds are Black "I often use a mixture of black marks and red ones in order to break up the visuals from being a mass of red lines."	#1005	2015/09/15
The Web and Print Versions of Strips are Designed Concurrently Also, the thought processes behind #443, #750 and #887; and some favorite strips.	#980	2015/04/27
What Bothers the Giant about Early Strips' Art Tangents, wriggly lines, exterior shots...but not the stick figure style, and full redraws are unlikely.	#980	2015/04/24
Art Colors can Change Whether because the Giant doesn't like the old color, or because his system doesn't. See also here(#14) ("I started to pick more realistic colors for the scenery as I began drawing more complex situations, both to sell the scene and to help the characters be the visual focus of a given panel.")	#942	2014/01/28
On Changing Font Style The failure of the Giant's old computer means the style couldn't stay the same, hence the change from "Comic Sans" to "Wildwords Lowercase".	#936	2014/01/04
Light and Art The art style doesn't show lighting and shading, much like how it doesn't show noses.	#871	2013/02/26
Speech Bubbles Don't overthink them...they are subservient to the story. Malack's bubbles are only black when he "vamps out."	#870	2013/02/18
True Subjective View In 843 V gets cornered.	#843	2012/03/07
Character Appearances & Forum Speculation Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. For example, just because two persons have similar hairstyles doesn't mean they are related.	#683	2009/10/06
Why Book Corrections Don't Get to the Online Strip Undoing the differences between online and book versions of strips would be inefficient.	#665	2009/06/25

Drawing
Design of the Book Covers(#13) "...making sure all of the protagonists are on the cover....make sure the covers give you an idea of what's in the book without giving away spoilers...."	#1260	2022/06/22
The Crayon Drawings are Made with "Actual Crayons"(#3)	#1222	2020/12/30
Roy's Boots are Intentionally Misproportioned(#4) "It just became one of the things that makes Roy look like Roy, so it stayed around."	#1193	2020/03/01
Comic Panels are Often Drawn Out of Order "...based on what I feel like doing first or last, whether that's due to mood or difficulty or what have you."	#1166	2019/06/07
Redcloak Getting Footwear In the new art style, doing three toes with the skin tone "looked weak and unthreatening....So starting now, armored goblin-types get nice heavy boots instead."	#1013	2015/11/24
On Growing Art Complexity "It's what I needed to keep going after 11 years of the same story by way of challenging myself, while still trying to stay within the initial parameters of the comic's signature look."	#980	2015/04/20
The Larger Online Page Size Aids Readability and Showcases New Art Also, the font is larger because the online comic page is larger.	#949	2014/04/17
The Scenery is Harder to Draw Than the Characters Also, the new hands don't take longer to draw.	#949	2014/04/17
How the Giant Writes and Draws the Strips And an answer to the question - why are certain strips several pages long?	#896	2013/06/28
Examples of the Giant's Non-Stick-Figure Art Talent The Giant's art skills on showcase. Also more here.	#848	2012/04/11

Art & Magic
Meld Into Stone Art trumps rules accuracy here in order to show the warping of the spell effect.	#859	2012/07/26
Counterspelling The Giant doesn't use different art to differentiate between counterspelling with Dispel Magic and counterspelling with the same spell.	#830	2012/01/23
Spell Colors The colors come from the spellcaster's choice or personality, and not their alignment or the types of magic.	#731	2010/06/28
Invisibility Why the art for invisible characters isn't consistent (utility trumps consistency).	#706	2010/03/15

Art & Merchandise
Characters and Merchandise The presence, absence, position, or style of any character on any piece of merchandise has no bearing on any future (or past) plot points.	#816	2011/11/22
Black and White Books They are unlikely to ever be colorized, and were not originally in color; they were drawn them in black and white.	#781	2011/03/16
The Oracle's Location on the OOTS Poster Don't read too much into it.	#744	2010/09/05

Spoiler: D&D Rules and Explanations

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Accuracy
Character Experience Isn't Tracked(#22) "Everyone should consider their character sheets to have the little shrugging emoji guy where their level should be listed."	#1193	2020/03/01
Armies and High level characters in D&D "The idea that you can walk into any tavern and 2-5 adventurers of high level will be there is literally a joke."	#919	2013/09/18
Evolution of D&D Adherence The Giant hasn't made explicit statements about feats/items since 2008, OOTS' internal consistency is still maintained, and the Giant has no regrets about using D&D in OOTS. See also here(#13): D&D rules used in the comic are "entirely based on memory".	#886	2013/05/09
On the (Un)importance of Calling Out Rules "I don't think it's actually important for readers to really understand the game mechanics of what is happening, as long as it is plausible."	#808	2011/10/06
Game Balance Doesn't Matter in This Story "I was communicating the way I expected the audience would perceive it, then I began the process of abolishing that perception."	#806	2011/09/20
Only SRD (Core) Spells are Common Knowledge "...and everything else is 'obscure/non-existent' unless someone has researched it."	#806	2011/09/19
Rules Accuracy In The Comic "If you are looking for moment-to-moment rules accuracy from this comic, you probably should stop reading." For instance, the Giant avoids the D&D term "calling" for the sake of non-D&D OOTS readers, who probably would not understand its meaning.	#801	2011/08/17

Characters: Items and Stats
Order of the Stick
On the Greenhilt Sword(#3) It was magical in the beginning, despite the Shatter. The legacy powers "did not exist until recently".	#1201	2020/04/30
Blackwing's Explosion in #1020 is a Scroll Activation Mishap Furthermore, the writing on the scroll reads "STRIP #970 P5 ESTABLISHES THAT MAGIC ITEMS EXPLODE WHEN ACTIVATED IMPROPERLY".	#1020	2016/01/22
Vaarsuvius, Spiked Tentacles and Conjuration Vaarsuvius has never been able to cast Conjuration spells, including Evan's Spiked Tentacles. Just assume Vaarsuvius was casting Shadow Conjuration instead.	#980	2015/04/23
Why V Doesn't Have a Staff There is no narrative purpose for it, and it would just be one more item to keep track of in the art.	#878	2013/03/03
Durkon's Mass Death Ward The Giant didn't even know Mass Death Ward existed when he wrote the strip. He pegged it at 7th level instead of 8th.	#806	2011/09/19
Elan's Rapiers He has two. His original, and one from Julio Scoundrél.	#723	2010/05/13
OOTS' Stats The Giant hasn't written them down, and everything is up in the air until they need a specific ability.	#714	2010/04/10
A Piece of Straw Haley used a piece of straw to get out of the jail cell. Info on Haley's Dexterity, Level, etc.	#262	2006/01/03
The Giant on Stats in Earlier Strips Elan singing about skill points, Haley having Rapid Shot and Manyshot, Roy and Vaarsuvius' mental ability scores, verbal components in OOTS, and insight about Vaarsuvius' spellcasting.	#180	2005/05/14
Elan and Nale are Twins So Nale has the same Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution as Elan.	#65	2004/05/03
Other Characters/Creatures
🍌Wrecan is a Crusader Also, Tarquin wasn't envisioned as a swordsage.	#1291	2023/11/27
Babies shouldn't be statted The inclusion of combat stats for newborns encourages combat with newborns, which shouldn't happen. See also the Giant's proposed alternative "stats", here and here.	#922	2013/10/04
Malack's Grapple Skills Malack's grapple skills were a hunting aid, not for optimization/combat. A character's skills have to be looked at in the context of their whole life, not "what I would do in a game."	#906	2013/07/30
Girard's Illusion Runes They are a ninth-level spell, not an epic spell.	#893	2013/06/11
The Keoghtum's Ointment The Keoghtum's Ointment removes deafness because it is extra strength.	#863	2012/09/12
Tarquin Doesn't Have Trap Sense "I don't usually bother making fun of mechanics anymore, but if I do, I'm not that subtle about it."	#858	2012/07/23
Malack's Undead Malack reanimates the dead Draketooths into mummies.	#856	2012/06/20
The Crimson Mantle Spoiler: Start of Darkness Show Generally it is not known by non-goblins that the mantle is the source of power.	#826	2012/01/12
Tsukiko Breaks The Rules Tsukiko has too many schools. The Giant doesn't make character decisions based on common player trends.	#800	2011/08/14
Acid-Born Shark The Giant created it, and made fun of himself in the comic.	#785	2011/04/06

Combat Scenes
Aarindarius Effortlessly Defeating the ABD? Hyperbole in the illustration, though Vaarsuvius thought it plausible for Aarindarius to assist.	#980	2015/04/25
Xykon vs Dorukan There would be no dramatic function to drawing out the fight. "If it helps, think of that page as a montage scene rather than a direct moment-to-moment narrative."	#960	2014/08/18
Realistic Injuries? Unbelievable things will happen in a crazy fantasy story.	#930	2013/11/13
Disintegrate is useful	#918	2013/09/12
Malack and Mass Death Ward Why did Malack bother checking if Durkon protected himself when he could simply dispel the spell and not care at all?	#876	2013/03/02
Battle Scenes and D&D Tactics "My job is to entertain, not to showcase perfect D&D tactics. If you can't be entertained by anything BUT perfect D&D tactics, that's on you."	#873	2013/02/28
Roy's Arena Fight With Thog Roy's strategy to taunt a dungeon-crashing Thog into breaking the pillars.	#808	2011/10/06
Zz'dtri's Break Enchantment The Giant didn't read the casting time while making the strip.	#804	2011/09/07
Miko's Fight How Miko defeated the OOTS off-panel and captured them; with a degree of detail the Giant hasn't done "before or since"(#21).	#251	2005/11/30