# Forum > Play-by-Post Games > Message Board Games > Structured Games > WW/Mafia Deal with the Devil

## Rogan

*Spoiler: Recruitment*
Show




> *Deal with the Devil*
> 
> _Welcome to the town of Burlow, a nice and mostly peaceful community full of ordinary people.
> Farmers are farming, bakers are baking, miners are mining and someoneÂ made a deal with the devil!
> Now this town will need some brave heroes, willing to stand strong against all odds, resist every temptation and find the evildoers to make the town save again!_
> This is a game of Werwolf / Mafia with my own twist added to it. Assuming there are enough players, there will be 4 alignments, the heroes (the equivalent to town), the tempted, the corrupted (the equivalent to wolves) and some neutrals, with their own victory conditions.
> The heroes win when the town is save again.
> The tempted share the same goal, unless they succumb to the temptation and become corrupted. The details of this process will be explained to the tempted.
> The corrupted win by gaining a majority of living players or by some other condition, which wonÂt be revealed until the game ends. Each night, they have to select one of their members to carry the factional kill. They can not refuse to use this.
> ...





*Spoiler: Player List*
Show


AvatarVecnaMetastachydiumBatcathatflat_footed died night 3Book Wombat died night 2Lady Serpentine died night 1PersolusGrand Arbiter left town night 2bladescape  died night 2, on the side of the heroesIllven voted day 3, executed night 3, on the side of the heroesJeenLeen died night 1Aleph Null  left town night 2Let'sGetKrakenSnowblazeCaedorusAllandoCazeroXihirli voted day 2, executed night 23SecondCultistBenoojianRakkoon 



*Deal with the Devil*

_Welcome to the town of Burlow, a nice and mostly peaceful community full of ordinary people. The current population consists of 88 people.
But the peace was disturbed when a traveling paladin went missing, his broken body was found soon after. The investigation of the town's authorities soon would reveal the cruel truth: The Paladin was used as a sacrifice to the devil. No single person in this town could have done this deed, but a small group might have the strength to do so.
To restore order, 21 notable inhabitants decided to further investigate this crime and to execute those responsible.
Little did they know that some of them had their own goals..._ 
*Day 1* starts now. I intend to end it at Jan, 05 in the evening (CET), approximately three days from now.
Due to some RL interference, I can't guarantee an exact time right now, but I will let you know some hours before the phase ends.


Day 1 end
Night 1 end
Day 2 end
Night 2 end
Day 3 end
Night 3 end

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## Caedorus

Im first im first!

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## Cazero

And you will die for that.
But not today. The dice deciced *AvatarVecna* was to die.

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## Xihirli

Eenie meenie miney.... you. * Rakkoon*

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## Allando

I'm third, and also kinda busy rn so

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## Book Wombat

*Benoojian*, why shouldn't I be an ojian?

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## Persolus

Hello everyone! I'm Persolus and think that you shouldn't kill me first round!

According to the unholy knowledge invested in my through the Google Random Number Generator, i believe that my first vote must be *AvatarVecna*.

...I swear, this isn't me becoming a regular and joining in on the tradition of "Lynch AV Day 1 No Matter What"  :Small Tongue:

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## Batcathat

I don't quite remember who I want to kill over last game. So when in doubt, *Snowblaze*.

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## flat_footed

9th post, 9th player.

*bladescape*

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## Metastachydium

There must be balance and order! It will be restored!

(Also, *Batcathat*. This is what you get for voting Snowblaze first when _I_ wanted to vote Snowblaze first.)

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## AvatarVecna

- - - Updated - - -

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## bladescape

*Metastachydium*

For undisclosed reasons that _definitely_ don't have a word starting with R in them.

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## Caedorus

> And you will die for that.


Did you just threaten me?!? Everyone knows I am town! I have _always_ been town. How could you betray me like that, *Cazero*?!?
(Yes, this is a random vote, in case it comes up.)

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## Allando

I need to make a vote count already 😔

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## Aleph Null

I didn't quite finish my move-in before this started. Rats.
I still have one or two things to do IRL so I might not get to post until tomorrow.

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## Illven

"My name is Princess Alexandria von Dragonstongue. Heir to the throne of the Tririver Kingdom. Though long I have slumbered. I awaken to find treachery afoot. One or more people intend to betray the royal line!"

The court with its blessed dice of truly call *Snowblaze* to the stand.

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## Metastachydium

> *Metastachydium*
> 
> For undisclosed reasons that _definitely_ don't have a word starting with R in them.


Um, "reason" is a word starting with an R.

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## Let'sGetKraken

> Hello everyone! I'm Persolus and think that you shouldn't kill me first round!


*Persolus*. 

I can pretend I rolled a die for it if that would make you feel better.

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## bladescape

> Um, "reason" is a word starting with an R.


Damn, you're onto me.

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## Persolus

> For undisclosed reasons that _definitely_ don't have a word starting with R in them.


Nah, nah, Meta, you've got it all wrong - Blade's referring to "*R*eally Good" reasons.

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## flat_footed

> - - - Updated - - -

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## Caedorus

Let's spice things up, *Flat_Footed*!

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## 3SecondCultist

> *Persolus*. 
> 
> I can pretend I rolled a die for it if that would make you feel better.


Pretending to roll, hm? _Suspicious_. :Small Big Grin: 

LetsGetKraken!

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## JeenLeen

> _Welcome to the town of Burlow, a nice and mostly peaceful community full of ordinary people. The current population consists of 88 people.
> _


Anyone have the time to check if the sum of our d6 rolls was 88?
I can probably make time tomorrow if nobody else has already done the summation.




> Did you just threaten me?!? Everyone knows I am town! I have _always_ been town. How could you betray me like that, *Cazero*?!?
> (Yes, this is a random vote, in case it comes up.)





> Let's spice things up, *Flat_Footed*!


Although I dislike the meme-posting and thus feel inclined to vote for flat_footed or AV, I find a vote shift this early in the game to be a tad suspicious.

Caedorus, why did you vote flat_footed?

- - - Updated - - -




> You may change your vote as much as you want. If you want to unvote, *please state this in bold red as well*, instead of simply striking out a previous vote.


I missed this rule about unvoting/changing votes, and I'm willing to believe Caedorus did as well... but it still doesn't look great on an early D1 vote change.  At least by D1 standards.
Also, as I forgot to bold my vote: *Caedorus*

*Rogan:* is the explicit unvoting _required_ for us to change a vote, or something you want to make it easier on yourself but you'll still count the change if you notice it?  But I guess it's on us if an old vote is counted when we forget to be explicit in bold red.

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## Batcathat

> *Rogan:* is the explicit unvoting _required_ for us to change a vote, or something you want to make it easier on yourself but you'll still count the change if you notice it?  But I guess it's on us if an old vote is counted when we forget to be explicit in bold red.


I'm assuming the explicit unvoting is only required when you're only unvoting and not voting for someone else right away, though I might be wrong.

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## Snowblaze

> I don't quite remember who I want to kill over last game. So when in doubt, *Snowblaze*.


Well, if you want to go back to the tradition of trying to get each other killed, who am I to deny you? *Batcathat*.

- - - Updated - - -




> "My name is Princess Alexandria von Dragonstongue. Heir to the throne of the Tririver Kingdom. Though long I have slumbered. I awaken to find treachery afoot. One or more people intend to betray the royal line!"
> 
> The court with its blessed dice of truly call *Snowblaze* to the stand.


_Because of course there was a hidden royal heir. That was how these things always seemed to work. Well, hopefully this one was of the less obnoxious kind. The woman in white sighed and rose to her feet. 

"You have summoned me," she said, "and I have come. What would you ask of me?" Never let it be said of her that she had not played her part to perfection when it was required._

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## Batcathat

> Well, if you want to go back to the tradition of trying to get each other killed, who am I to deny you? *Batcathat*.


At least this way we're getting it out of the way early.  :Small Tongue:

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## Rogan

> I'm assuming the explicit unvoting is only required when you're only unvoting and not voting for someone else right away, though I might be wrong.


This assumption is correct.
A new, valid vote is sufficient to nullify a previous vote. A formal unvote is only required when there is no new target.

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## flat_footed

> Anyone have the time to check if the sum of our d6 rolls was 88?
> I can probably make time tomorrow if nobody else has already done the summation.
> 
> Although I dislike the meme-posting and thus feel inclined to vote for flat_footed or AV, I find a vote shift this early in the game to be a tad suspicious.


I did and it is.

In my defense, AV declared war first. And yes, I also am not a fan of that vote change.

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## Batcathat

I'm somewhat divided on the meme posting. On one hand, I feel like roughly 98 percent of memes are unfunny (they might have been funny at some point, but then they were used five billion times) but on the other hand I kind of want AV to stay alive long enough to attempt an all-meme ISO.  :Small Amused:

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## rakkoon

A paladin was murdered you say?
What faith was he following?
Perhaps therein lies a clue.
I actually get paid irl to make memes so staying out of that conversation. For now a name I cannot pronounce
*Metastachydium*

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## Persolus

Alright, new page, new vote count!

2: AvatarVecna - Cazero, Persolus
2: Batcathat - Metastachydium, Snowblaze
2: flat_footed - AvatarVecna, Caedorus
2: Metastachydium - bladescape, rakkoon
2: Snowblaze - BatCatHat, Illven

1: Persolus - LetsGetKraken
Grand Arbiter
1: bladescape - flat_footed

1: Let'sGetKraken - 3SecondCultist
1: Caedorus - JeenLeen
1: Benoojian - Book Wombat
1: Rakkoon - Xihirli

Illven
JeenLeen
Aleph Null
Allando
Cazero 
Lady Serpentine
Xihirli 
3SecondCultist
Book Wombat

People who need to get into voting mode:
Lady Serpentine
JeenLeen
Aleph Null
Allando
Benoojian

[apologies for the lack of additional content, it is currently too early]

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## Snowblaze

> Alright, new page, new vote count!
> 
> 2: AvatarVecna - Cazero, Persolus
> 2: Batcathat - Metastachydium, Snowblaze
> 2: flat_footed - AvatarVecna, Caedorus
> 2: Metastachydium - bladescape, rakkoon
> 2: Snowblaze - BatCatHat, Illven
> 
> 1: Persolus - LetsGetKraken
> ...


I spent far too long trying to figure out why GA was in the list without any context, whether he was actually playing (yes), whether he had posted (I don't think so) and why counting him meant this added up to 22 players (Jeen was counted as simultaneously voting and not voting).

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## Persolus

> I spent far too long trying to figure out why GA was in the list without any context, whether he was actually playing (yes), whether he had posted (I don't think so) and why counting him meant this added up to 22 players (Jeen was counted as simultaneously voting and not voting).


Woops. See this is what i get for doing this sort of thing at close to 2 AM.

IGNORE THE ABOVE VOTECOUNT FOLKS!


TWO VOTES:
*flat_footed* - AvatarVecna, Caedorus
*AvatarVecna* - Cazero, Persolus
*Metastachydium* - bladescape, rakkoon
*Batcathat* - Metastachydium, Snowblaze
*Snowblaze* - BatCatHat, Illven

ONE VOTE:
*Persolus* - LetsGetKraken
*bladescape* - flat_footed
*Let'sGetKraken* - 3SecondCultist
*Caedorus* - JeenLeen
*Benoojian* - Book Wombat
*Rakkoon* - Xihirli

NO VOTE:
*Illven
JeenLeen
Aleph Null
Allando
Cazero 
Grand Arbiter
Xihirli 
3SecondCultist
Book Wombat
Lady Serpentine*


PLEASE VOTE:
Lady Serpentine
Aleph Null
Allando
Benoojian
Grand Arbiter

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## rakkoon

Which apparently is a Chinese flower (Metastachydium) ...sounds like the perfect tool to kill a paladin with! 
Can I just call you flower? You can call me Sir Thrashpanda!

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## bladescape

Isn't that Sir Trashpanda?

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## rakkoon

You can choose, I'm raccoon that dabbles in magic Sir Blade, spelling is not my strong piont. The only important thing here is to find our Paladin's killer. And his faith perhaps.

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## Snowblaze

Good, Persolus noticed GA was still missing. I felt bad about pointing it out instead of letting him sleep. 

_"Faith," repeated the woman in white meditatively. "I doubt knowing which god the late paladin followed would help us. Many people claim that these distinctions matter, but in the end? There are only two true faiths. Good, and evil. And we must all choose, sooner or later, between the two. Because as long as there are good and evil, there will be war between them."

Some would call it heresy. She called it truth. There was no use in spending your life hiding from it. As to the side she had chosen? That was for her to know, and others to find out if they so desired._

(tfw you're writing some fanciful RP and trying to get inside a character's head and then realise you've strayed closer than you'd like to the "don't talk about these things" line. Disclaimer: my character's views do not represent mine and are not meant as commentary on any real-world religions.)

...oh, right, I'm supposed to be hunting wolves. That can wait until tomorrow, I'm not in the mood for trying to dredge up reads rn.

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## Illven

My wolf reads so far are Persolus for making a vote count and then screwing it up  :Small Tongue: 

Caderous seemed a bit defensive, about Caz's reference.

Those are my wolf reads so far.

And no my vote won't change yet.

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## Grand Arbiter

New Years burnt me out like a cheap lightbulb.

*Aleph Null*. Placeholder vote on first not-posted-yet, alphabetically, until I get to take a good look through the thread tonight.

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## Xihirli

> You can choose, I'm raccoon that dabbles in magic Sir Blade, spelling is not my strong piont. The only important thing here is to find our Paladin's killer. And his faith perhaps.


Are we using noble titles?
I dont have one.

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## rakkoon

Xihirli the Magnificent?
Xihirli the Raccoon Hater?

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## Batcathat

Personally, I like the simple elegance of "Your Murderousness" for Xi.

(At least as long as this game remains text only, I think I'm adding an extra syllable every time I try to pronounce it...)

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## Allando

> Woops. See this is what i get for doing this sort of thing at close to 2 AM.
> 
> IGNORE THE ABOVE VOTECOUNT FOLKS!
> 
> 
> TWO VOTES:
> *flat_footed* - AvatarVecna, Caedorus
> *AvatarVecna* - Cazero, Persolus
> *Metastachydium* - bladescape, rakkoon
> ...


You want my vote, hm? OK then, have my vote *Persolus*  :Small Big Grin: .



> New Years burnt me out like a cheap lightbulb.


Awww :(



> Are we using noble titles?
> I dont have one.


Xi-hear ye, hear ye! (lol)



> Personally, I like the simple elegance of "Your Murderousness" for Xi.
> 
> (At least as long as this game remains text only, I think I'm adding an extra syllable every time I try to pronounce it...)


Urgent time for this to no longer be text-only. AV?

Jokes aside, reads:
Basically, anyone could be it. I think Caedorus was overdoing it on the sarcastic anger and not actually trying to be defensive, but I agree it looks sus. I'd usually pass on voting at this stage because of no info, but Persolus asked really nicely.
If you are reading this, you are a very suspicious person. Keep it up.

- - - Updated - - -

... I just realised, this isn't like my last game where there is only one wolf D1. So, any ideas on a number? I need to reread the OP.

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## Metastachydium

> Which apparently is a Chinese flower (Metastachydium) ...sounds like the perfect tool to kill a paladin with! 
> Can I just call you flower? You can call me Sir Thrashpanda!


I'm a FLOWER! Of _course_ you can call me that, good Sir T_h_rashpanda! That said, Metastachydia are endemic to bits of Central Asia outside China and I'm not particularly poisonous.

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## Snowblaze

_"'Your Evilness' is always a good title. Does rather run the risk of summoning heroes to kill you, but I've always thought those things don't matter so much. You should embrace who you are. As for my title?" 

She shrugged. "Telling you my true title would rather spoil my air of mystery. I'll answer to 'my Lady'."_


...okay, fine, I'll stop sitting on the sidelines being mysterious. That's bladescape's role, not mine.

So, since there has been precisely one topic of discussion, let's talk about Caedorus. 

Oh, right, I need to find quotes. Back in a second...

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## JeenLeen

> You want my vote, hm? OK then, have my vote *Persolus* .
> 
> 
> Jokes aside, reads:
> Basically, anyone could be it. I think Caedorus was overdoing it on the sarcastic anger and not actually trying to be defensive, but I agree it looks sus. I'd usually pass on voting at this stage because of no info, but Persolus asked really nicely.
> If you are reading this, you are a very suspicious person. Keep it up.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> ... I just realised, this isn't like my last game where there is only one wolf D1. So, any ideas on a number? I need to reread the OP.


Stating some suspicion on Caedorus, but not voting him?
If Caedorus flips wolf, this looks like an attempt at distancing while not wanting to vote your scumbuddy.

As for number of wolves, I'd think a low number since there is a way for Tempted to become Corrupted.   But it's hard to know for sure since we don't know the conversion rules.

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## 3SecondCultist

_"It is the privilege and responsibility of those in power to_ *Govern*_, not merely to rule."_




> You want my vote, hm? OK then, have my vote *Persolus* .
> 
> Awww :(
> 
> Xi-hear ye, hear ye! (lol)
> 
> Urgent time for this to no longer be text-only. AV?
> 
> Jokes aside, reads:
> ...


JeenLeen is not wrong here - voting for Persolus while pointing the finger on Caedorus could look like distancing or just generally throwing mud at the wall D1 and seeing what sticks. Also, as someone who was sussed _hard_ in my last game as Seer for making a silly D1 mistake, I can easily put myself in Caedorus' shoes.

Why the vote for Persolus at all, if you suspect Caedorus? Can you give reasoning for the former, or is it a simple D1 rand vote?

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## Snowblaze

*Spoiler: stuff Caedorus has done*
Show




> Did you just threaten me?!? Everyone knows I am town! I have _always_ been town. How could you betray me like that, *Cazero*?!?
> (Yes, this is a random vote, in case it comes up.)


I can wolfread this if I squint, but not for the defensiveness (that's overdone for dramatic effect and NAI, I think). 

My problem with it would be that the last sentence feels over-explainy. Already thinking "people are going to be questioning me and maybe suspecting me". I do sometimes feel that way as town so it's not the most reliable of tells, but it's better than nothing imo. 




> Let's spice things up, *Flat_Footed*!


Mmm. This needs explanation but lacking evident wolfy motivation isn't suspicious on its own. Though it does appear to contradict the "over-explainy wolf" theory, so... it feels too much of a stretch to actually give it town points but that's what my gut wants to do.


*Spoiler: stuff people have said about Caedorus*
Show





> Anyone have the time to check if the sum of our d6 rolls was 88?
> I can probably make time tomorrow if nobody else has already done the summation.
> 
> Although I dislike the meme-posting and thus feel inclined to vote for flat_footed or AV, I find a vote shift this early in the game to be a tad suspicious.
> 
> Caedorus, why did you vote flat_footed?
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> ...


Reasonable for a D1 vote. I disagree, but town!Jeen and I rarely look at games the same way, and this does seem vaguely like normal town!Jeen logic.




> I did and it is.
> 
> In my defense, AV declared war first. And yes, I also am not a fan of that vote change.


I would be wolfreading this for shade if it wasn't for the fact flat_footed was the target of that vote change.




> My wolf reads so far are Persolus for making a vote count and then screwing it up 
> 
> Caderous seemed a bit defensive, about Caz's reference.
> 
> Those are my wolf reads so far.
> 
> And no my vote won't change yet.


Only (serious) wolfread also being the only person anyone else has seriously suspected... can't say I'm a fan of that, but I don't know Ilven well enough to have much confidence (I'll admit I've been significantly less engaged than normal in recent games and so I don't really have a handle on any of the latest group of new players. Hopefully I can fix that this game.)




> You want my vote, hm? OK then, have my vote *Persolus* .
> 
> Awww :(
> 
> Xi-hear ye, hear ye! (lol)
> 
> Urgent time for this to no longer be text-only. AV?
> 
> Jokes aside, reads:
> ...


Could be interpreted as hedging, and begs the question of "why is it suspicious if it's not defensive". Which I'm asking. 



tl;dr:
- I think Caedorus is worth poking at but doesn't really deserve to be the only real suspect people have been listing (yes, I know, that does mean I should find another suspect to list. That's future me's problem.)

- Caedorus, please explain why you switched your vote to flat_footed.

- Allando, why does Caedorus "look sus" if they're not trying to be defensive?

- my gut and vague gamestate reads say there's decently likely to be a wolf in the people who've been listing Caedorus as a suspect, most likely Allando or Ilven.

- I am probably hopelessly wrong about all of this.

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## AvatarVecna

> Urgent time for this to no longer be text-only. AV?

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## Persolus

> tl;dr:
> - I think Caedorus is worth poking at but doesn't really deserve to be the only real suspect people have been listing (yes, I know, that does mean I should find another suspect to list. That's future me's problem.)
> 
> - Caedorus, please explain why you switched your vote to flat_footed.
> 
> - Allando, why does Caedorus "look sus" if they're not trying to be defensive?
> 
> - my gut and vague gamestate reads say there's decently likely to be a wolf in the people who've been listing Caedorus as a suspect, most likely Allando or Ilven.
> 
> - I am probably hopelessly wrong about all of this.



Observations I'd like to make: Caedorus is a newer player (second game, I believe?), and is using the strategy that has been rather effective in previous games of pinballing between votes D1 to generate discussion. This either shows that he's bold and a fast learner, or he's been given advice. 

Caedorus is Allando's brother, so I'd be willing to give Allando a bit more leniency in terms of "paying more attention to a specific player than usual". However, watch for this bias, Allando.

Both Illven and Allando presumably have the same reasons for wolfreading me as I have had for countless others over the past games: I made a votecount showing absolutely _no_ new content, and one that was wrong, to boot. If I were in their shoes I'd probably make the same decision at this point.  

Also, since I've forgotten about them once already, *Lady Serpentine*, how's it going? Any thoughts thus far?

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## Allando

> Stating some suspicion on Caedorus, but not voting him?
> If Caedorus flips wolf, this looks like an attempt at distancing while not wanting to vote your scumbuddy.


I am loath to vote anyone with my 3d post or something. Also, I'm pretty sure Caedorus isn't wolf-he tends to be sneakier than that.




> Observations I'd like to make: Caedorus is a newer player (second game, I believe?), and is using the strategy that has been rather effective in previous games of pinballing between votes D1 to generate discussion. This either shows that he's bold and a fast learner, or he's been given advice. 
> 
> Caedorus is Allando's brother, so I'd be willing to give Allando a bit more leniency in terms of "paying more attention to a specific player than usual". However, watch for this bias, Allando.
> 
> Both Illven and Allando presumably have the same reasons for wolfreading me as I have had for countless others over the past games: I made a votecount showing absolutely _no_ new content, and one that was wrong, to boot. If I were in their shoes I'd probably make the same decision at this point.  
> 
> Also, since I've forgotten about them once already, *Lady Serpentine*, how's it going? Any thoughts thus far?


Caedorus has been given advice: by me, before the game started and we got our roles. I voted you purely as reaction to your post asking for a vote. My bad.

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## bladescape

_"It was 'My Lady' was it? Pretentiousness aside you are welcome to join my gallery of foolishness." The cloaked figure held a mocking smile as he held out his hand, gesturing at the empty expanse around where he sat. 

And then he glanced back at the main melee, where discussion already ran hot, a languid flop of his arm gesturing in that general direction. "Regardless, seems you garner attention where-ever you go."_

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## Caedorus

> *Spoiler: stuff Caedorus has done*
> Show
> 
> 
> I can wolfread this if I squint, but not for the defensiveness (that's overdone for dramatic effect and NAI, I think). 
> 
> My problem with it would be that the last sentence feels over-explainy. Already thinking "people are going to be questioning me and maybe suspecting me". I do sometimes feel that way as town so it's not the most reliable of tells, but it's better than nothing imo. 
> 
> 
> ...


I switched my vote because for a host of individually poor reasons. One, my first vote was random and I don't like sticking to a random vote. Secondly, I was the only one voting them (unless I misremember), and that is imo bad play - you should either vote a wagon and make a difference or make a vote to make a point if your vote won't matter. Thirdly, I don't want a slow d1 to mean d2 becomes info-less - the more discussion, the better; who said what, who was silent, who was over-pushy?
There is an additional reason I can't say because wolves are listening, but rest assured it isn't because I have info on Flat.
Can someone make a list of people trying their best to sneak through d1 without saying much? Thanks!

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## Book Wombat

Hello hello, it's me. Top of the list.

- - - Updated - - -

_It was raining and pouring, and the old man was snoring. But now that it's all clear and he's awake, there's stuff*to do!_

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## Aleph Null

Just got done with being IRL ubermega busy, so let me give the thread a read so I can make an informed choice unlike last game  :Tongue: 

Actual Post:

Ok yeah jumping on a wagon and thereby changing your vote without a good explanation is a pretty big flag if you ask me. Also, though, the fact that AV hasn't posted anything that isn't an image is kind of making me think special/oddity role of some kind. Dunno tho.
The placeholder vote doesn't warrant an OMGUS.
*Allando* didn't quite explain away the refusal to vote  most people vote with their first posts as far as I am aware, so voting with one's third is no different, and you _did_ end up voting. If you were trying to brush it off as a joke you could have always revoked it, but you didn't. That requires a bit more of an explain IMHO.

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## Xihirli

> Xihirli the Magnificent?
> Xihirli the Raccoon Hater?


I do not hate raccoons I love them in sandwiches.

----------


## Persolus

**scrubbed**

I think Allando might have good reasons for being careful with who to vote for, but we'll see about that.

----------


## bladescape

> You want my vote, hm? OK then, have my vote *Persolus* .
> 
> Awww :(
> 
> Xi-hear ye, hear ye! (lol)
> 
> Urgent time for this to no longer be text-only. AV?
> 
> Jokes aside, reads:
> ...


_"One might consider you reasonably humorous, so I shall endeavour to explain our numbers game." The cloak shifts, a grin forming underneath it. Some amusement seeps through the vague exterior. "For a game of so many of us, one would assume that the likelihood that approximately one quarter of us are informed we have less than sociable interests towards the townsfolk around us." There is a lean forward as if readying oneself to pounce, but no other part of the body moves for this motion.

"But alas, many of us are merely good on the surface this game and may find ourselves tempted. Therefore I estimate the true perpetrators of this situation may be even fewer, with perhaps only 3 or 4 maximum given true malignancy. I then estimate 7 or 8 more with slightly tarnished thoughts. This leads to a potential 50/50 split between true purity and those who have a chance of corruption. This is, of course, a guess. But..." The figure trails off as it raises a single hand from beneath the cloak, an index finger held directly up as if rebuking. "Why, good sir, were you feeling so required to state why you needed to vote Persolus? It seems perhaps a tad on the overt side of things."

The finger lowered to point directly at him. "Perhaps you should tell us more, Allando"_

- - - Updated - - -

(As a side note I have reason to still believe Meta sus. I encourage people to look at that too.)

----------


## flat_footed

Until proven differently, I'll assume AV's special ability has something tied to posting memes. Rogan's initial thoughts for me were along similar lines, though we went a different path.

----------


## Benoojian

First Accusation is a lil sus so Cazero.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Until proven differently, I'll assume AV's special ability has something tied to posting memes. Rogan's initial thoughts for me were along similar lines, though we went a different path.

----------


## Batcathat

> First Accusation is a lil sus so Cazero.


This seems to be the wrong shade of red. 

That said, I'm not sure if it actually matters. *@Rogan:* How particular are you with things like that?

As for the actual wolf hunt, I'm not having any strong feelings at the moment, other than some weak-even-for-D1 town leans.

- - - Updated - - -

Unless I'm mistaken, we have a five-way tie for first place and a ten-way tie for second (or should that be sixth?) place. At least there are plenty of options.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## rakkoon

Good morning everyone.
I don't know enough about the brothers to form an opinion




> I'm a FLOWER! Of _course_ you can call me that, good Sir T_h_rashpanda!


Thank you, wondrous Flower!




> I do not hate raccoons I love them in sandwiches.


***Backs away***




> There are only two true faiths. Good, and evil..


Is that the absolute truth m'Lady? If a gambler gambles with innocent lives, he is surely Evil. If a stranger gives food to a raccoon, she is surely Good. But if a gambling stranger rolls some dice to see whether to feed an animal, is that stranger not somewhere in between? I fear multiple parties are at play here.




> (As a side note I have reason to still believe Meta sus. I encourage people to look at that too.)


I was just D1 pointing at the delicate flower called Meta by some. Have no specific reads about any flower so far. Could you elaborate where this sus behaviour manifested? I'm always willing to learn.

----------


## Snowblaze

> I am loath to vote anyone with my 3d post or something. Also, I'm pretty sure Caedorus isn't wolf-he tends to be sneakier than that.


_stares_

So... why did you say Caedorus was sus earlier, and why did you then change your mind?




> _"It was 'My Lady' was it? Pretentiousness aside you are welcome to join my gallery of foolishness." The cloaked figure held a mocking smile as he held out his hand, gesturing at the empty expanse around where he sat. 
> 
> And then he glanced back at the main melee, where discussion already ran hot, a languid flop of his arm gesturing in that general direction. "Regardless, seems you garner attention where-ever you go."_


_"Pretentious I may be," she replied, very deliberately keeping her hands by her sides, "but at least I'm not cliched enough to hide my face behind a cloak." 

She sat nevertheless, positioned so she was close enough to the general discussion to play her part in it but could still exchange friendly insults with the cloaked figure. "And of course I have garnered attention," she continued. "I am nothing without my audience, after all."_ 




> (As a side note I have reason to still believe Meta sus. I encourage people to look at that too.)


That was actually a serious read? Duly noted, will take a look though I don't remember seeing anything AI from Meta... wait, maybe that means he should have a spot on that list Caedorus mentioned.

- - - Updated - - -




> Is that the absolute truth m'Lady? If a gambler gambles with innocent lives, he is surely Evil. If a stranger gives food to a raccoon, she is surely Good. But if a gambling stranger rolls some dice to see whether to feed an animal, is that stranger not somewhere in between? I fear multiple parties are at play here.


_"You misunderstand me. An act may be neither Good nor Evil, as your somewhat contrived example would be; it does not matter where those dice land. It matters what your gambling stranger would do when faced with a true choice - to obey the dice even when the animal is starving or to go against them to do what is right."_

(You're right both in terms of "even most fictional worlds aren't as black-and-white as my character suggests" and "this game contains Tempted and neutrals", but belief in black-and-white morality is apparently a crucial part of my character concept.)

- - - Updated - - -

Skimmed through Meta, still not convinced. It's too early to seriously suspect someone for flying utr, and I haven't found anything else. If I squint I could read this:



> There must be balance and order! It will be restored!
> 
> (Also, *Batcathat*. This is what you get for voting Snowblaze first when _I_ wanted to vote Snowblaze first.)


as not wanting to draw attention to themselves by voting me and creating a wagon, but I'm fully aware I'm looking for reasons to suspect Meta rather than getting to them naturally so I'm not going to put that much weight on it.

----------


## Persolus

Right, think I got this one down a bit better?
*Spoiler: Vote Count*
Show

TWO VOTES:
*flat_footed*: AvatarVecna Caedorus 
*Snowblaze*: Batcathat Illven 
*Batcathat*: Metastachydium Snowblaze 
*Persolus*: Let'sGetKraken Allando 
*Allando*: bladescape Aleph Null

ONE VOTE:
*Metastachydium*: Rakkoon 
*AvatarVecna*: Cazero 
*bladescape*: flat_footed 
*Benoojian*: Book Wombat 
*Rakkoon*: Xihirli 
*Aleph Null*: Grand Arbiter
*Let'sGetKraken*: 3SecondCultist 
*Caedorus*: JeenLeen 
*Lady Serpentine*: Persolus 
*Cazero*: Benoojian 

NO VOTES:
*JeenLeen* 
*3SecondCultist*
*Book Wombat* 
*Illven*
*Grand Arbiter*

*Xihirli*

GET VOTING:
*Lady Serpentine* 


@Rakkoon any thoughts on the five double-votes?

----------


## Snowblaze

> Right, think I got this one down a bit better?
> *Spoiler: Vote Count*
> Show
> 
> TWO VOTES:
> *flat_footed*: AvatarVecna Caedorus 
> *Snowblaze*: Batcathat Illven 
> *Batcathat*: Metastachydium Snowblaze 
> *Persolus*: Let'sGetKraken Allando 
> ...


I don't think Grand Arbiter is self-voting. (He's voting for Aleph Null iirc). 

Thanks anyway. I only just realised that Kraken is playing and I missed my chance to random-vote him. Alas.

- - - Updated - - -




> Just got done with being IRL ubermega busy, so let me give the thread a read so I can make an informed choice unlike last game 
> 
> Actual Post:
> 
> Ok yeah jumping on a wagon and thereby changing your vote without a good explanation is a pretty big flag if you ask me. Also, though, the fact that AV hasn't posted anything that isn't an image is kind of making me think special/oddity role of some kind. Dunno tho.
> The placeholder vote doesn't warrant an OMGUS.
> *Allando* didn't quite explain away the refusal to vote  most people vote with their first posts as far as I am aware, so voting with one's third is no different, and you _did_ end up voting. If you were trying to brush it off as a joke you could have always revoked it, but you didn't. That requires a bit more of an explain IMHO.


tbf I had terrible reads that game and was distracted by the hydra game, so it's probably a good thing I died. Though please don't do it again!

Which placeholder vote are you talking about here?

----------


## flat_footed

> 


*Spoiler*
Show




I'm going to do some digging on the OMGUS I think I saw to see if I can find anything there.

I don't have any strong feelings about the other 4 wagons at this point, and it doesn't feel helpful to make a sixth tie, so I'll hold my vote on bladescape for the moment.

----------


## rakkoon

@persolus, you want me to D1 read so that you can lynch me tomorrow if I'm proven incorrect...sure

Snowblaze: Is surely acting like they are trying to solve: GOOD read
flat_footed: Has said absolutely nothing related to suspicions: NULL read
Batcathat: Doesn't like memes = SUS but apart from that nothing. NULL read
Persolus: Please don't kill me. Vote count at 2AM = trying too hard? Appears to be wrong later, creating confusion. SUS read.
Allando: Protects Caedorus and admits coaching him. Still hasn't voted although keeps talking about it. SUS read.

My random vote for meta is a lonely vote but blade is seconding it in words but not in actions....

I could switch to someone in the top 5... Persolus asked for my reads so I'll go for Allando

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> I don't think Grand Arbiter is self-voting. (He's voting for Aleph Null iirc). 
> 
> Thanks anyway. I only just realised that Kraken is playing and I missed my chance to random-vote him. Alas.


*hiss*

Rakkoon- snow is literally always solvy. Snow being solvy is NAI (not alignment indicative). I watched her earnestly solve D1 as a serial killer.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, re: your Persolus read, Rakkoon - keep in mind that people operate off of different timezones. Otherwise your reafs seem fine? If anything flat is being unusually talkative.

----------


## Snowblaze

> *hiss*
> 
> Rakkoon- snow is literally always solvy. Snow being solvy is NAI (not alignment indicative). I watched her earnestly solve D1 as a serial killer.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Also, re: your Persolus read, Rakkoon - keep in mind that people operate off of different timezones. Otherwise your reafs seem fine? If anything flat is being unusually talkative.


Yup, can confirm I could fake what I've done so far as a wolf.

Also I believe it was Persolus saying they were doing the vote count at 2am, not Rakkoon seeing the timestamp as 2am Rakkoon time.

Thoughts on Allando/Caedorus?

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> *hiss*
> 
> Rakkoon- snow is literally always solvy. Snow being solvy is NAI (not alignment indicative). I watched her earnestly solve D1 as a serial killer.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Also, re: your Persolus read, Rakkoon - keep in mind that people operate off of different timezones. Otherwise your reafs seem fine? If anything flat is being unusually talkative.


Kraken is right - moreover, snow was also putting in a good faith effort to solve as wolf in a recent game. _Definitely_ NAI for her.

My actual reads list is still being generated, but its worth noting that I _dont_ see Allando as wolf - if they were being coached, I would think they would have been told to either vote Caedorus or get off the proverbial pot. The more likely scenario to me is that this is a relatively new townie who is making some moves and subsequently getting hung out to dry for an easy D1 mislynch. They _do_ need to explain why they said Caedorus was wolfy and then backtracked, but Im actually looking more closely at the people on Allandos wagon for sus points right now.

Rakkoon, lets start with you. I dont really agree that Allando is protecting Caedorus, but I want to address your last post in which you say youre going for a top 5er and mention Persolus asking for your reads and then voting Allando. Do you think that a player asking you for your reads makes them inherently less suspicious?

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, just realized it was alleged that Allando was the one coaching, not the other way around. Nevertheless, my point stands: if they are on a wolf team, I think someone would have told them not to point at Caedorus, then not vote for him, then later seemingly change their mind. Thats really obvious wolfy hedging, and I dont see a wolf doing it this early for no real reason.

----------


## Snowblaze

"Good faith effort to solve" and "wolf" are mutually exclusive. I think you mean "ruthlessly bussed multiple partners". 

(Though I should add that I'm not a wolf this time.)

I'm torn between "I can see the angle 3SC is coming from here, I think he's town" and "3SC is defending his wolf partner Allando". I think I believe the former more, but remind me of this if Allando flips wolf.

----------


## JeenLeen

bladescape suggests we look into his suspicions against Meta.  So I'm looking at both of their posts.  I think I found them all, plus some where other folk comment on the comments.




> *Metastachydium*
> 
> For undisclosed reasons that _definitely_ don't have a word starting with R in them.





> Um, "reason" is a word starting with an R.





> Damn, you're onto me.





> Isn't that Sir Trashpanda?





> I'm a FLOWER! Of _course_ you can call me that, good Sir T_h_rashpanda! That said, Metastachydia are endemic to bits of Central Asia outside China and I'm not particularly poisonous.





> _"It was 'My Lady' was it? Pretentiousness aside you are welcome to join my gallery of foolishness." The cloaked figure held a mocking smile as he held out his hand, gesturing at the empty expanse around where he sat. 
> 
> And then he glanced back at the main melee, where discussion already ran hot, a languid flop of his arm gesturing in that general direction. "Regardless, seems you garner attention where-ever you go."_





> _"One might consider you reasonably humorous, so I shall endeavour to explain our numbers game." The cloak shifts, a grin forming underneath it. Some amusement seeps through the vague exterior. "For a game of so many of us, one would assume that the likelihood that approximately one quarter of us are informed we have less than sociable interests towards the townsfolk around us." There is a lean forward as if readying oneself to pounce, but no other part of the body moves for this motion.
> 
> "But alas, many of us are merely good on the surface this game and may find ourselves tempted. Therefore I estimate the true perpetrators of this situation may be even fewer, with perhaps only 3 or 4 maximum given true malignancy. I then estimate 7 or 8 more with slightly tarnished thoughts. This leads to a potential 50/50 split between true purity and those who have a chance of corruption. This is, of course, a guess. But..." The figure trails off as it raises a single hand from beneath the cloak, an index finger held directly up as if rebuking. "Why, good sir, were you feeling so required to state why you needed to vote Persolus? It seems perhaps a tad on the overt side of things."
> 
> The finger lowered to point directly at him. "Perhaps you should tell us more, Allando"_
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> (As a side note I have reason to still believe Meta sus. I encourage people to look at that too.)





> I was just D1 pointing at the delicate flower called Meta by some. Have no specific reads about any flower so far. Could you elaborate where this sus behaviour manifested? I'm always willing to learn.





> That was actually a serious read? Duly noted, will take a look though I don't remember seeing anything AI from Meta... wait, maybe that means he should have a spot on that list Caedorus mentioned.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Skimmed through Meta, still not convinced. It's too early to seriously suspect someone for flying utr, and I haven't found anything else. If I squint I could read this:
> 
> 
> as not wanting to draw attention to themselves by voting me and creating a wagon, but I'm fully aware I'm looking for reasons to suspect Meta rather than getting to them naturally so I'm not going to put that much weight on it.



...and I got nothing.
Unless it's something with "Thrash"panda, but I reckon that's just a pun on "thrashing".   Is there another pun or meaning there I'm missing?

My guess is that bladescape is just poking to see if anyone squirms and he actually doesn't have legit reasons against Meta (except maybe a gut feel), but bladescape is hard to read.
Or he has some intel from his role or boon that makes him suspect or know something.  Hmm... "Role" starts with R.

--- ---

On another (and more important) topic, I get why Allando is looking odd to some folk, but is he looking odder than Caedorus?   As I noted in a prior post, I think Allando looks suspicious _if_ Caedorus flips wolf, but I'm not sure they look suspicious otherwise... but maybe I missed something while catching up on the thread.
I'll try to look through their posts to see if I should move my vote, but gotta focus on some other stuff in the meantime.

----------


## Snowblaze

*Spoiler: Aleph Null's post*
Show




> Just got done with being IRL ubermega busy, so let me give the thread a read so I can make an informed choice unlike last game 
> 
> Actual Post:
> 
> Ok yeah jumping on a wagon and thereby changing your vote without a good explanation is a pretty big flag if you ask me. Also, though, the fact that AV hasn't posted anything that isn't an image is kind of making me think special/oddity role of some kind. Dunno tho.
> The placeholder vote doesn't warrant an OMGUS.
> *Allando* didn't quite explain away the refusal to vote  most people vote with their first posts as far as I am aware, so voting with one's third is no different, and you _did_ end up voting. If you were trying to brush it off as a joke you could have always revoked it, but you didn't. That requires a bit more of an explain IMHO.





Can I get thoughts on this, please? In general, but also from 3SC in particular.

----------


## JeenLeen

> Oh, just realized it was alleged that Allando was the one coaching, not the other way around. Nevertheless, my point stands: if they are on a wolf team, I think someone would have told them not to point at Caedorus, then not vote for him, then later seemingly change their mind. Thats really obvious wolfy hedging, and I dont see a wolf doing it this early for no real reason.





> I'm torn between "I can see the angle 3SC is coming from here, I think he's town" and "3SC is defending his wolf partner Allando". I think I believe the former more, but remind me of this if Allando flips wolf.


I see some answers to my "why Allando" question got posted while I was putting together my post.   3SC has a good point.  Snowblaze also makes a good point, and maybe lynching Allando first _would_ yield more info.  But I think (less sure now, but still think) I'd still rather test Caedorus and Allando by voting Caedorus first.

Now to truly focus on some real life stuff for a couple hours.

----------


## Batcathat

> *Spoiler: Aleph Null's post*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can I get thoughts on this, please? In general, but also from 3SC in particular.


Just general thoughts or about something specific that I'm missing? Assuming it's the former, I would say Aleph does seem to be jumping to conclusions (or at least to suspicions) based on rather shaky evidence, but doing that as a townie is something that I'm... somewhat familiar with, so probably not suspicious in itself. 

I did have the same thought about AV's meme posts before remembering they talked about doing that before the roles were assigned (though I'm not completely ruling out the possibility of Rogan giving AV a boon based on it).

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> "Good faith effort to solve" and "wolf" are mutually exclusive. I think you mean "ruthlessly bussed multiple partners". 
> 
> (Though I should add that I'm not a wolf this time.)
> 
> I'm torn between "I can see the angle 3SC is coming from here, I think he's town" and "3SC is defending his wolf partner Allando". I think I believe the former more, but remind me of this if Allando flips wolf.


Oh, of course. How silly of me, of course you couldnt be a wolf.  :Small Tongue:  What I _meant_ to say was that it _looked_ like good faith effort to solve. I had not properly woken up yet.




> *Spoiler: Aleph Null's post*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can I get thoughts on this, please? In general, but also from 3SC in particular.


Hmmm. So, Aleph is making a bit of an assumption here, namely that not immediately jumping to a vote makes Allando look wolfy. I actually agree that some kind of explanation beyond it being a third post would be nice, but I do not think it warrants a serious vote.

That said, I dont think putting down a serious vote is what AlephNull is even doing. Considering they were also looking at AV, I suspect theyre just bouncing around to put down some pressure votes in hope of the aforementioned explanation. That feels more town than not at this juncture.




> I see some answers to my "why Allando" question got posted while I was putting together my post. 3SC has a good point.  Snowblaze also makes a good point, and maybe lynching Allando first _would_ yield more info.  But I think (less sure now, but still think) I'd still rather test Caedorus and Allando by voting Caedorus first.
> 
> Now to truly focus on some real life stuff for a couple hours.


Okay, but seriously I fully support what JeenLeen is saying here. Suspecting and voting Allando without first voting Caedorus is basically pre-flipping, is it not? If Caedorus is not a wolf, then Allando should theoretically get some _town_ points.




> Just general thoughts or about something specific that I'm missing? Assuming it's the former, I would say Aleph does seem to be jumping to conclusions (or at least to suspicions) based on rather shaky evidence, but doing that as a townie is something that I'm... somewhat familiar with, so probably not suspicious in itself. 
> 
> I did have the same thought about AV's meme posts before remembering they talked about doing that before the roles were assigned (though I'm not completely ruling out the possibility of Rogan giving AV a boon based on it).


See above for thoughts re: Alephs post. I think were more or less on the same page about that.

Meta-reasoning to defend AV is eh. I could absolutely see Rogan and AV cooking up a boon based on solely posting memes this entire game (which would be an intriguing change of pace, I will admit).

- - - Updated - - -

You know what? Yeah, lets light this candle. *Caedorus* for my vote.

- - - Updated - - -

That doesnt mean I wouldnt like an explanation from *Rakkoon*, who I have just moved my vote from. Please see my earlier post.

----------


## Rogan

> This seems to be the wrong shade of red. 
> 
> That said, I'm not sure if it actually matters. *@Rogan:* How particular are you with things like that?


A vote in *bold red* is preferred, since it's easier to spot. But as long as the intention is clear, I'll count votes in other formats as well.
It shouldn't be necessary to state this explicitly, but please don't try to game this by deliberately posting ambiguous votes.

----------


## AvatarVecna



----------


## Cazero

Now this meme is just a blatant lie. There is no hesitation here. At this point in the game, you just push the "lmao nah" button every time.
I'll vote for you AV, except well, I already did.
Also, I'm not trying to fly under the radar. The radar is calibrated too high.

----------


## Snowblaze

3SC (can't be bothered to quote):

Suspecting Allando when Caedorus hasn't flipped wolf is only pre-flipping if your reasons for suspecting Allando are only true if Caedorus is a wolf.

And while Jeen is advocating that argument, they're voting Caedorus, and afaict none of the Allando voters (or the Snowblaze who's suspecting but not voting Allando) are basing their suspicions on a Caedorus wolf flip.

Do you think Caedorus has been wolfy independently of Allando? Why if so, and if not why are you voting him?

----------


## Illven

Jeen Leen asked of our dice rolls equaled the starting population. I can confirm that they do.

Possibly dumb question, but if Allando and Caderous are RL siblings, what do we think are the odds that they are either both masons, or wolves?

Also Flatfooted, can I have the first letter of what was scrubbed from post 58, I need it for reasons.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Snowblaze

Vague townleans: JeenLeen, Caedorus

Null on general principle: bladescape, AvatarVecna, Xihirli 

Null due to lack of content: Book Wombat, Cazero, Let'sGetKraken, Lady Serpentine, Grand Arbiter, Metastachydium, Benoojian

Null due to content I have no particular opinion on: Batcathat, flat_footed

Eh, I can kind of see why these people might be suspicious but I don't really believe in it sufficiently to be interested in pushing them: Persolus, Rakkoon, Aleph Null, Ilven

Wolfy if Allando is a wolf, ??? otherwise: 3SecondCultist

Wolflean pending explanation of Caedorus progression: Allando

Doing this mostly so she actually knows who's playing: Snowblaze 

The "lack of content" tier could also be a list of people who might be flying utr, Caedorus. 

Taking questions on all but the "Eh" tier, since explaining why they could be wolfy means pushing them which I'm making a conscious choice not to do.

I have considerably fewer townleans than I usually have by this point. Not sure why.

----------


## Illven

I actually have two more wolf leans.

Vecna as a slight one. While they mentioned they might do an all meme format, actually doing one limits communication which prevents the possibility of a slip up.

Ti as a more significant one. They were relatively quiet after bussing hard for 3secondcultist last game, I find it sus they are quiet again.

----------


## rakkoon

"Do you think that a player asking you for your reads makes them inherently less suspicious?"
I don't know these specific players but if I have to choose between the two I find somewhat suspicious, I would find it rude to vote for the one that asked me for me reads.
Apparently Persolus is playing the same as always, which could very well be true. Having said that, putting almost everyone in the "It's day one, we don't know" category is boring so now I have at least two suspects. And more people are answering and talking which yields us more information.

Trashpanda, trashpanda.....better? (everyone's a critic)

----------


## bladescape

Rakkoon my vote was on Meta before I swapped, may ho back, undecided for now.

FF (and Jeen I think?)
Meta sus is real but somehow the important post was not quoted so lel.

Jeen
My Allando sus ain't got diddly to do with Cae

Snow
RP response later tired

Anyone
AV is probably town for dumb reasons 
3SC might be town
Illven also has a "town for dumb reasons" sign.
I wanna put Rakkoon and Aleph in my "pls no votes" but I also don't have reason to call them town.

- - - Updated - - -

Persolus and Cazero are wolfy too but I have sussed both of them d1 a lot so not confident in them reads

----------


## Benoojian

> I have considerably fewer townleans than I usually have by this point. Not sure why.


That should be obvious,  the semi-Town faction of the Tempted. You are getting less town reads because there are less pure Townies. Tempted are likely hedging their bets in case they end up working towards different goals. 

I suspect AvatarVecna is Tempted rather than wolf, the meme format makes it real easy to control how much info you share.

----------


## Metastachydium

> I'm fully aware I'm looking for reasons to suspect Meta rather than getting to them naturally


Good. Good!




> Snowblaze: Is surely *acting like* they are trying to solve: GOOD read



When did you last see Snow play? That's her whole shtick _especially when she's with the dogs_. In fact, if she catches one D1, that's all but a sure sign they've been working together. Were I AV, I'd know insert a post with a Joker screencap with "no, I kill the bus driver"!




> bladescape suggests we look into his suspicions against Meta.  So I'm looking at both of their posts.  I think I found them all, plus some where other folk comment on the comments.
> ...and I got nothing.
> Unless it's something with "Thrash"panda, but I reckon that's just a pun on "thrashing".   Is there another pun or meaning there I'm missing?


Nah, it's part of an elaborate code. That's how we communicate given that as dogs, we have a secure private chat and all.




> My guess is that bladescape is just poking to see if anyone squirms and he actually doesn't have legit reasons against Meta (except maybe a gut feel), but bladescape is hard to read.
> Or he has some intel from his role or boon that makes him suspect or know something.  Hmm... "Role" starts with R.


Cynical!Me says the word is "random" or, at any rate, it was when Blade first brought it up.




> Null due to lack of content: Book Wombat, Cazero, Let'sGetKraken, Lady Serpentine, Grand Arbiter, Metastachydium, Benoojian


You wound me, Snow.




> Persolus and Cazero are wolfy too but I have sussed both of them d1 a lot so not confident in them reads


Yeah. Persolus strikes me as a tad more talkaive than usual, but that's pretty much all I have other than "AV's meme thing is weird".

----------


## Persolus

> Yeah. Persolus strikes me as a tad more talkaive than usual, but that's pretty much all I have other than "AV's meme thing is weird".


I somehow have the _second-highest post count_ this game. This is very strange.




> That should be obvious,  the semi-Town faction of the Tempted. You are getting less town reads because there are less pure Townies. Tempted are likely hedging their bets in case they end up working towards different goals. 
> 
> I suspect AvatarVecna is Tempted rather than wolf, the meme format makes it real easy to control how much info you share.


I agree with Benoojian - don't forget, Snow, us Pure Townies are the ones outnumbered this time.
I have some thoughts about what Tempted could be, exactly, but unless a bunch of other people want to start that discussion I won't share further.




> Jeen Leen asked of our dice rolls equaled the starting population. I can confirm that they do.
> 
> Possibly dumb question, but if Allando and Caderous are RL siblings, what do we think are the odds that they are either both masons, or wolves?
> 
> Also Flatfooted, can I have the first letter of what was scrubbed from post 58, I need it for reasons.


Given that Rogan stated "I made _an_ exception to the rule of Boons and Alignments being independent", i would assume no? but if anything, they might have a boon which allows for some form of communication, without knowing alignment.

It was not part of any sort of code, no, if that's what you're wondering. I did enough of hint-dropping last game.

----------


## Batcathat

> I agree with Benoojian - don't forget, Snow, us Pure Townies are the ones outnumbered this time.


If you pardon my mixed metaphor, this really rubs my wolfdar the wrong way. It's not much (and barely anything at all) but lacking anything better at the moment, let's go with *Persolus*. When I have the time, I should go over Persolus' posts and see if there's anything more than my gut to support it.

----------


## Benoojian

I also thought Persolus was just a tad too insistent in that post.

Weird thought, Rogan specifically used "The Narrator" as a targetable example. Should we lynch the Narrator just in case this is a trick game and there are no wolves?

----------


## AvatarVecna

> If you pardon my mixed metaphor, this really rubs my wolfdar the wrong way. It's not much (and barely anything at all) but lacking anything better at the moment, let's go with *Persolus*. When I have the time, I should go over Persolus' posts and see if there's anything more than my gut to support it.

----------


## Illven

> I agree with Benoojian - don't forget, Snow, us Pure Townies are the ones outnumbered this time.
> I have some thoughts about what Tempted could be, exactly, but unless a bunch of other people want to start that discussion I won't share further.


How do you know pure townies are outnumbered?  :Small Confused: 

Were wolves given a total of corruptible targets?

----------


## Persolus

> How do you know pure townies are outnumbered? 
> 
> Were wolves given a total of corruptible targets?


Well, in a normal game, there is a minority of wolves, plus the occasional handful of neutral. Here, however, there is a minority of wolves, a handful of neutral ("some", to be precise), and an unknown number of corrupted. Assuming 3-4 wolves, and 1-2 neutral, all it takes is 5-7 Tempted for the Townies to only have less than 50% of the population. Given that we have 21 people, that doesn't seem unreasonable!

----------


## JeenLeen

> I agree with Benoojian - don't forget, Snow, us Pure Townies are the ones outnumbered this time.
> I have some thoughts about what Tempted could be, exactly, but unless a bunch of other people want to start that discussion I won't share further.





> If you pardon my mixed metaphor, this really rubs my wolfdar the wrong way. It's not much (and barely anything at all) but lacking anything better at the moment, let's go with *Persolus*. When I have the time, I should go over Persolus' posts and see if there's anything more than my gut to support it.





> How do you know pure townies are outnumbered? 
> 
> Were wolves given a total of corruptible targets?


I'll concur with Batcathat that _something_ about Persolus' post sounds off.  Like he has too much intel on the actual counts of each alignment.  And my first thought echoed Illven's post.
But after some more thought, I don't think this is necessarily indictative of any alignment; a power or boon might include intel on the distribution of alignments.  If it's a boon, NAI; if it's a power... I want to think more about if that power makes sense for a townie, tempted, or wolf.  I also want to think if it makes more sense for a townie, tempted, or wolf to want to state that publicly.

(In contrast, bladescape's ruminations on alignment (about 1/4 wolf, 1/4 tempted, 1/2 town) seemed like reasonable and rational _speculation_, and not nearly as confident as Persolus' statement.)




> I also thought Persolus was just a tad too insistent in that post.
> 
> Weird thought, Rogan specifically used "The Narrator" as a targetable example. Should we lynch the Narrator just in case this is a trick game and there are no wolves?


Most games have the narrator die at game-start.  If we want to test this via a lynch, D1 does seem the best time to do so because we have the least info to guide our votes.  But no lynch postpones us gathering intel.  In a bastardy game like this, I can see the logic of doing this, but not sure what I think of it.  I'd like to hear others' thoughts.

If there is a vigilante, though... I could them see targeting the Narrator...

- - - Updated - - -




> Well, in a normal game, there is a minority of wolves, plus the occasional handful of neutral. Here, however, there is a minority of wolves, a handful of neutral ("some", to be precise), and an unknown number of corrupted. Assuming 3-4 wolves, and 1-2 neutral, all it takes is 5-7 Tempted for the Townies to only have less than 50% of the population. Given that we have 21 people, that doesn't seem unreasonable!


And I'm ninja'd by Persolus answering the question.  With an answer of "it was my speculation and it's reasonable."
I agree the_ conclusion_ doesn't seem unreasonable, but still find the _confidence_ in the original post odd.

----------


## Persolus

> And I'm ninja'd by Persolus answering the question.  With an answer of "it was my speculation and it's reasonable."
> I agree the_ conclusion_ doesn't seem unreasonable, but still find the _confidence_ in the original post odd.


I've just been getting a lot more confident in playing these games, and people tended to wolf-read when I hedge everything in "maybe" and "i think it's possible" and etc. to the excess. Seems I still need to find a happy medium!

- - - Updated - - -




> (In contrast, bladescape's ruminations on alignment (about 1/4 wolf, 1/4 tempted, 1/2 town) seemed like reasonable and rational _speculation_, and not nearly as confident as Persolus' statement.)


Also! Since we have an odd number of players, Town _has_ to be either the majority or the minority. So even if my other speculations are completely baseless, I have a 50% chance of being right.

----------


## JeenLeen

> I've just been getting a lot more confident in playing these games, and people tended to wolf-read when I hedge everything in "maybe" and "i think it's possible" and etc. to the excess. Seems I still need to find a happy medium!


That sounds quite believable.  And I don't really see this as a thing it makes sense to lie about, so I'm willing to believe Persolus.

----------


## Batcathat

> I've just been getting a lot more confident in playing these games, and people tended to wolf-read when I hedge everything in "maybe" and "i think it's possible" and etc. to the excess. Seems I still need to find a happy medium!


Yeah, I know better than most that people have an unfortunate tendency to equate uncertainty with wolfiness and in return I'm probably a little extra suspicious about people seeming too confident, but in this case it was only one of several things, so while I congratulate you on your rising confidence, I'm leaving my vote where it is.

----------


## Persolus

...I'm kinda getting a pockety vibe off of JeenLeen? I mean, thus far, you've ended up with a null position on anyone you express suspicion of besides Caedorus.

Will do an ISO later, unless someone else wants to first.

----------


## rakkoon

Jeenleen says that you're probably right and you immediately add them to the sus list?
I like you, let's keep you unlynched for at least a couple of days just for the excitement factor 🙃

----------


## JeenLeen

> ...I'm kinda getting a pockety vibe off of JeenLeen? I mean, thus far, you've ended up with a null position on anyone you express suspicion of besides Caedorus.
> 
> Will do an ISO later, unless someone else wants to first.


I guess that's fair.
But, yeah, so far Caedorus is the only person who rubs me the wrong way that I can't justify away.   Your post did rub me the wrong way, but your explanation is believable enough that I'm willing to buy it without other evidence against you.
Today's been busy, but I hope to read back over D1 to better understand why some have other reasons for voting you (Batcathat's one of many things statement) or Allando (bladescape noting it was irrespective of anything with Caedorus).  

I don't have strong reads on most others.  There's a couple I have thoughts on, but I think one is on pretty silly reasons and, for the other, I worry my commenting publicly might bias results or tip my hat in a way I'd rather not do yet.  For both, I think it's better I stay quiet.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> 3SC (can't be bothered to quote):
> 
> Suspecting Allando when Caedorus hasn't flipped wolf is only pre-flipping if your reasons for suspecting Allando are only true if Caedorus is a wolf.
> 
> And while Jeen is advocating that argument, they're voting Caedorus, and afaict none of the Allando voters (or the Snowblaze who's suspecting but not voting Allando) are basing their suspicions on a Caedorus wolf flip.
> 
> Do you think Caedorus has been wolfy independently of Allando? Why if so, and if not why are you voting him?


Honestly? My gut is telling me they're a possible suspect. Their second post, where they OMGUS votes Cazero and then swap to Flat for no stated reason while justifying that their first vote is 'totally random' is not a great look. At that point, Allando was not involved in the conversation at all, we were still on page 1.

Then there's this reply to the aforementioned vote-swapping:




> I switched my vote because for a host of individually poor reasons. One, my first vote was random and I don't like sticking to a random vote. Secondly, I was the only one voting them (unless I misremember), and that is imo bad play - you should either vote a wagon and make a difference or make a vote to make a point if your vote won't matter. Thirdly, I don't want a slow d1 to mean d2 becomes info-less - the more discussion, the better; who said what, who was silent, who was over-pushy?
> There is an additional reason I can't say because wolves are listening, but rest assured it isn't because I have info on Flat.
> Can someone make a list of people trying their best to sneak through d1 without saying much? Thanks!


Citing a desire for 'more discussion' is, on the surface, good gameplay and slightly towny. And as chiefly Persolus has mentioned in addition to his own defense, pinballing votes early to provoke said discussion isn't a bad strategy. But Day 1 doesn't even end until tomorrow, and he switched his vote within the timeframe of 1 hour while still in the first 24 hours of the game - thereby generating promptly zero discussion about either Cazero or flat. That... doesn't actually demonstrate that strategy being used the way Persolus claims it has. So his defense doesn't match his actions.

Finally, there is an implication in Caedorus' rebuttal that 'there is another reason, I promise, but I can't say because of wolves and it's definitely _not_ info on flat'. That's, uh, vague. If Caedorus knows something about Cazero and isn't saying - which, fair enough on D1 keeping your cards close to your chest - then why randvote him? And why the switch to flat in particular?

All in all, I think I'm justified in leaving a vote on Caedorus until we get proper explanations for his actions, because I'm not satisfied with those that we've gotten so far.




> Also, I'm not trying to fly under the radar. The radar is calibrated too high.


_Just waiting for AV to post like a Top Gun meme or something._




> I actually have two more wolf leans.
> 
> Vecna as a slight one. While they mentioned they might do an all meme format, actually doing one limits communication which prevents the possibility of a slip up.
> 
> Ti as a more significant one. They were relatively quiet after bussing hard for 3secondcultist last game, I find it sus they are quiet again.


Yeahhhh, I'm kinda wolfreading you for this. First you go after Allando and break off when the wagon won't gain steam, now you're throwing shade at a memer who may not be able to reply in anything other than images and someone who is being uncharacteristically quiet - which would be a dead giveaway as wolf, and therefore in my head is null to towny - to see if more wagons form. But I'm not biting.

Snow, Persolus, flat, BCH: what do you all think of Illven thus far? 




> Jeen
> My Allando sus ain't got diddly to do with Cae
> 
> Persolus and Cazero are wolfy too but I have sussed both of them d1 a lot so not confident in them reads


blade, I'm super curious about your wolfreads. Why are you sussing Allando if it has nothing to do with Caedorus? Similarly, what is leading you to wolfread Persolus and Cazero? The latter I am not too sure on, but the former I am currently townreading and would like to know what you think.




> I've just been getting a lot more confident in playing these games, and people tended to wolf-read when I hedge everything in "maybe" and "i think it's possible" and etc. to the excess. Seems I still need to find a happy medium!
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Also! Since we have an odd number of players, Town _has_ to be either the majority or the minority. So even if my other speculations are completely baseless, I have a 50% chance of being right.


I don't think _I'm_ wolfreading you right now, if that helps. You're being more decisive with your reads, and I see that behaviour in myself too. 'Playing a different meta = sus' is such a weird indicator of suspicion if taken alone without any other evidence.

Technically not true on the latter. We have four alignments this game: Heroes, Neutrals, Tempted, and Corrupted. There's no reason to assume we don't have an odd number of either Neutrals or Tempted, which could lead to equal number of Heroes and Corrupted to start. Now, do I think that's likely? No, especially since it sounds based on the recruitment post that Corrupted can both cult and kill. I know Rogan is concerned about balance - because he told everyone as much - but I don't think he would have a game that could get to a LYLO situation super early unless we really messed up.

----------


## Batcathat

> Snow, Persolus, flat, BCH: what do you all think of Illven thus far?


Not sure. My only game with her was as masons, which on one hand hopefully gave me some sort of insight, but on the other means I have zero experience trying to read her from the outside. I can see where you're coming from and agree that Illven's reasoning is questionable (but of course, it's D1, so that's pretty much the default in most cases) but I wouldn't go so far as to wolf read her over it.

----------


## Persolus

> I don't think _I'm_ wolfreading you right now, if that helps. You're being more decisive with your reads, and I see that behaviour in myself too. 'Playing a different meta = sus' is such a weird indicator of suspicion if taken alone without any other evidence.
> 
> Technically not true on the latter. We have four alignments this game: Heroes, Neutrals, Tempted, and Corrupted. There's no reason to assume we don't have an odd number of either Neutrals or Tempted, which could lead to equal number of Heroes and Corrupted to start. Now, do I think that's likely? No, especially since it sounds based on the recruitment post that Corrupted can both cult and kill. I know Rogan is concerned about balance - because he told everyone as much - but I don't think he would have a game that could get to a LYLO situation super early unless we really messed up.


To be clear, I was not saying that the Corrupted and the Heroes can't have equal numbers. I'm saying that the collective mass of Neutral + Tempted + Corrupted almost certainly outnumbers the Heroes.


ISO on Illven incoming!

----------


## Illven

> Yeahhhh, I'm kinda wolfreading you for this. First you go after Allando and break off when the wagon won't gain steam, now you're throwing shade at a memer who may not be able to reply in anything other than images and someone who is being uncharacteristically quiet - which would be a dead giveaway as wolf, and therefore in my head is null to towny - to see if more wagons form. But I'm not biting.
> 
> Snow, Persolus, flat, BCH: what do you all think of Illven thus far?


It's less I'm off Allando, and more I'm putting up more of my wolf leans. 

I think Avatarvecna NEEDING to post in memes is unlikely. They may get some sort of bonus for all memes, but I wouldn't call a boon with that requirement a boon. More like power at a price.

As for Ti. I've been told she's usually pretty hard to read as a wolf since she can play into her townie persona well. The only thing I noticed was after bussing you she fell silent.

Also add Persolus as one of my wolf reads

----------


## AvatarVecna

> *ISO* on Illven incoming!

----------


## Persolus

> "My name is Princess Alexandria von Dragonstongue. Heir to the throne of the Tririver Kingdom. Though long I have slumbered. I awaken to find treachery afoot. One or more people intend to betray the royal line!"
> 
> The court with its blessed dice of truly call *Snowblaze* to the stand.


Roleplay and random vote? Seems fair.




> My wolf reads so far are Persolus for making a vote count and then screwing it up 
> 
> Caderous seemed a bit defensive, about Caz's reference.
> 
> Those are my wolf reads so far.
> 
> And no my vote won't change yet.


As I've stated, that's the sort of thing I would wolf-read someone else for. 
Caedorous' response to Caz's presumed pun seemed more random, than defensive? 
Still 




> Jeen Leen asked of our dice rolls equaled the starting population. I can confirm that they do.
> 
> Possibly dumb question, but if Allando and Caderous are RL siblings, what do we think are the odds that they are either both masons, or wolves?
> 
> Also Flatfooted, can I have the first letter of what was scrubbed from post 58, I need it for reasons.


Discussing math, rules, and something that's either fishing for a code or has mechanical implications. Notably, _not_ discussing wolf leans, and not even mentioning Snowblaze




> I actually have two more wolf leans.
> 
> Vecna as a slight one. While they mentioned they might do an all meme format, actually doing one limits communication which prevents the possibility of a slip up.
> 
> Ti as a more significant one. They were relatively quiet after bussing hard for 3secondcultist last game, I find it sus they are quiet again.


...okay now you have *four* wolf leans and yet you're keeping your vote on Snowblaze. Both of those leans are odd and based on format rather than content/lack thereof?
I can't quite recall how new you are, but I definitely am, and even I know that AV is the master of avoiding slipping up. If anything, she might have taken the gif/meme thing as a self-imposed challenge.
If Lady Serpentine is lurking, then she might have good reasons for it, we just cannot know until we get more content from her.



> How do you know pure townies are outnumbered? 
> 
> Were wolves given a total of corruptible targets?


Ha ha, very funny. Yet again, no real content, and you're not outright calling me a wolf.




> It's less I'm off Allando, and more I'm putting up more of my wolf leans. 
> 
> I think Avatarvecna NEEDING to post in memes is unlikely. They may get some sort of bonus for all memes, but I wouldn't call a boon with that requirement a boon. More like power at a price.
> 
> As for Ti. I've been told she's usually pretty hard to read as a wolf since she can play into her townie persona well. The only thing I noticed was after bussing you she fell silent.
> 
> Also add Persolus as one of my wolf reads


Wait. 
Wait.
When exactly did Illven go on Allando?

@3SecondCultist when exactly did Illven go on Allando?

----------


## Snowblaze

I'm failing to find townleans still.




> That should be obvious,  the semi-Town faction of the Tempted. You are getting less town reads because there are less pure Townies. Tempted are likely hedging their bets in case they end up working towards different goals. 
> 
> I suspect AvatarVecna is Tempted rather than wolf, the meme format makes it real easy to control how much info you share.


Eh, maybe? I wouldn't assume that Tempted would play any different to ordinary "pure" town, but that may be because I'm the person who plays like town when she's a serial killer.



> When did you last see Snow play? That's her whole shtick _especially when she's with the dogs_. In fact, if she catches one D1, that's all but a sure sign they've been working together. Were I AV, I'd know insert a post with a Joker screencap with "no, I kill the bus driver"!
> (snip)
> 
> You wound me, Snow.


Look, just because I ruthlessly bussed a partner day one... twice... doesn't mean killing wolves makes me one. I am capable of finding and killing wolves as town. 

And Rakkoon and I have never played together.




> I agree with Benoojian - don't forget, Snow, us Pure Townies are the ones outnumbered this time.


My gut is screaming "kill this with fire" because it feels so "oh, you and me are on the same side against everyone else". Pockety, TMI-y. I don't know if that's actually valid but it exists.




> How do you know pure townies are outnumbered? 
> 
> Were wolves given a total of corruptible targets?


And then this pings me almost as hard for the way it approaches the suspicion in an indirect way and just feels like shade. Probably unpaired with Persolus, though.

I'd say "exactly one wolf in Persolus/Ilven" except the last time I made an "exactly one wolf in this pair" read they were both town and I got suicide bombed for it. (Hydra game, if people are wondering what I'm talking about.)




> ...I'm kinda getting a pockety vibe off of JeenLeen? I mean, thus far, you've ended up with a null position on anyone you express suspicion of besides Caedorus.
> 
> Will do an ISO later, unless someone else wants to first.


I feel like everyone's just been bringing up the same few names as suspects all game, which is probably making me biased in favour of this less-consensus take.

3SC, on Ilven: I had them in my "eh..." tier, couple of vague pings but I didn't think digging into them would be productive. They're below null, though, and I have no objections to their being wagoned.

----------


## Caedorus

Ok im back!
Can't remember where, but someone said changing my vote so soon was wolfy. I object; I was going to bed and changing my vote generated more discussion than if I hadn't. Now there has been an entire day and I don't see a response from flat, so sticking with the pressure.
NOW I look wolfy if flat has posted and I missed it don't I
Almost certain gif thing is not role-based bc av sterted without it - unless who-made-the-joke-again is in on it.
Watching this all unfold. I wish there were drinks or popcorn served.

----------


## Cazero

> I think Avatarvecna NEEDING to post in memes is unlikely. They may get some sort of bonus for all memes, but I wouldn't call a boon with that requirement a boon. More like power at a price.


Like some sort of... deal with the Devil?
My random vote gains in accuracy by the hour.

----------


## Illven

> ...okay now you have *four* wolf leans and yet you're keeping your vote on Snowblaze. Both of those leans are odd and based on format rather than content/lack thereof?
> I can't quite recall how new you are, but I definitely am, and even I know that AV is the master of avoiding slipping up. If anything, she might have taken the gif/meme thing as a self-imposed challenge.
> If Lady Serpentine is lurking, then she might have good reasons for it, we just cannot know until we get more content from her.


I have never played with AV beforehand. The one previous game I was in, Vecna was the narrator.
It is possible that Ti has RL issues. Until we know those RL issues though all I'm seeing is radio silence.

----------


## Snowblaze

> Wait. 
> Wait.
> When exactly did Illven go on Allando?
> 
> @3SecondCultist when exactly did Illven go on Allando?


That little voice in the back of my head that says "is this an actual slip?" has been aroused from its slumber. I hate it when that happens. 

But. Yes. Ilven acted as if they had been suspecting Allando previously when they hadn't actually mentioned such suspicion.

Ilven, please explain.

----------


## Illven

> That little voice in the back of my head that says "is this an actual slip?" has been aroused from its slumber. I hate it when that happens. 
> 
> But. Yes. Ilven acted as if they had been suspecting Allando previously when they hadn't actually mentioned such suspicion.
> 
> Ilven, please explain.


I assumed it was me posting about the do I think Allando and Cad are linked. Either being masons, or wolves.

Along with my eariler slight wolf read of Cad.

----------


## Snowblaze

*Spoiler: flat_footed posts since Caedorus vote*
Show




> I did and it is.
> 
> In my defense, AV declared war first. And yes, I also am not a fan of that vote change.





> Until proven differently, I'll assume AV's special ability has something tied to posting memes. Rogan's initial thoughts for me were along similar lines, though we went a different path.





> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to do some digging on the OMGUS I think I saw to see if I can find anything there.
> 
> I don't have any strong feelings about the other 4 wagons at this point, and it doesn't feel helpful to make a sixth tie, so I'll hold my vote on bladescape for the moment.





flat has indeed responded to the vote, if only to say he's not a fan. Thoughts, Caedorus?

----------


## Persolus

> I assumed it was me posting about the do I think Allando and Cad are linked. Either being masons, or wolves.
> 
> Along with my eariler slight wolf read of Cad.


This is fair enough for you, but it doesn't explain:




> Yeahhhh, I'm kinda wolfreading you for this. First you go after Allando and break off when the wagon won't gain steam, now you're throwing shade at a memer who may not be able to reply in anything other than images and someone who is being uncharacteristically quiet - which would be a dead giveaway as wolf, and therefore in my head is null to towny - to see if more wagons form. But I'm not biting.
> 
> Snow, Persolus, flat, BCH: what do you all think of Illven thus far?


Where exactly did Illven "go after" Allando? The way the initial link thing was stated, it was more of a mechanical note. Please, all, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're the only one who got "Illven thinks that Allando is a wolf" out of that.




> I don't think I'm wolfreading you right now, if that helps. You're being more decisive with your reads, and I see that behaviour in myself too. 'Playing a different meta = sus' is such a weird indicator of suspicion if taken alone without any other evidence.


Honestly, as a whole? You are coming off as _awfully_ pockety. Maybe this is the same 'more decisive' thing you see in me, but you seem to be trying awfully hard to gain camaraderie.

----------


## Snowblaze

*Spoiler:  order of events on the Ilven thing*
Show


Ilven's only mention of Allando prior to the 3SC comment is the following:



> Possibly dumb question, but if Allando and Caderous are RL siblings, what do we think are the odds that they are either both masons, or wolves?


Then 3SC says this about Ilven:



> Yeahhhh, I'm kinda wolfreading you for this. First you go after Allando and break off when the wagon won't gain steam, now you're throwing shade at a memer who may not be able to reply in anything other than images and someone who is being uncharacteristically quiet - which would be a dead giveaway as wolf, and therefore in my head is null to towny - to see if more wagons form. But I'm not biting.


Ilven has clearly not "gone after Allando and broken off when the wagon wouldn't gain steam". I can understand this as a mistake of some kind, and would expect Ilven to point this out. Instead:




> It's less I'm off Allando, and more I'm putting up more of my wolf leans.


"No, I still suspect this person I never posted suspicion of in the first place". 

I'm struggling to see this coming from town but also this kind of thing is really easy to confbias yourself about and convince yourself that there's no way X is town and then they flip town.



> I assumed it was me posting about the do I think Allando and Cad are linked. Either being masons, or wolves.
> 
> Along with my eariler slight wolf read of Cad.


Is this a plausible explanation?



Can people please check this? Is there a plausible explanation for town just... accepting an invalid characterisation of their play like this?

----------


## Metastachydium

> [IMG]https://media4.giphy.com/media/Rhhr8D5mKSX7O/giphy.gif[IMG]


What? Let the man implicate himself if he's dirty! Either way, that gives us stuff to work with.




> Look, just because I ruthlessly bussed a partner day one... twice... doesn't mean killing wolves makes me one. I am capable of finding and killing wolves as town.


Of course. That's half my issue with you: as you certainly noticed, I'm wary of tall poppies. It's just I'm _still_ kind of salty about one of those, and salt is bad for plants, so I want to *kill* you.




> And Rakkoon and I have never played together.


Oh. Good to know.




> Is this a plausible explanation?


I mean, yes? "Not off someone" can absolutely mean "I'm still keeping an eye on this person I don't townlean".

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> Wait. 
> Wait.
> When exactly did Illven go on Allando?
> 
> @3SecondCultist when exactly did Illven go on Allando?


They did not, in fact, go after Allando! I made a mistake there... but very interesting that said mistake was not immediately pointed out as such.

Do I think, in light of Illven's answer, it was an actual slip? Hmmm. I need to re-read the ISO to make sure, but I'm actually leaning more towards 'no'. That doesn't make the rest of their wolf-leans any less shady, mind.




> Where exactly did Illven "go after" Allando? The way the initial link thing was stated, it was more of a mechanical note. Please, all, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're the only one who got "Illven thinks that Allando is a wolf" out of that.
> 
> Honestly, as a whole? You are coming off as _awfully_ pockety. Maybe this is the same 'more decisive' thing you see in me, but you seem to be trying awfully hard to gain camaraderie.


See above for my answer.

I'm trying to see what the lay of the land is, and going with my gut. As it happens, I _don't_ agree with you about Caedorus (see my earlier post). That's why my vote is staying there and not moving to Illven. You are one of my top townleans, though the degree of confidence on any of my reads this early is fairly low.

----------


## Batcathat

Not sure what to think about the Illven/Allando thing. It's weird, but I don't see what the wolfy motivation would be. If Illven is a wolf and Allando town, it seems like she'd want to distance herself from a possible mislynch, not just assume she had said something she hadn't. I suppose I could see them being wolf buddies who talked about one going after the other and Illven forgot it hadn't happened yet. But what would that make Cultist? A third buddy who also forgot that Illven hadn't accused Allando yet? A townie who made an honest mistake that just happened to line up with what the wolves had planned? This makes even less sense as I'm writing it out. 

Of course, as I'm fond of reminding myself roughly four times every game, just because I can't see a wolfy motivation for something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> What? Let the man implicate himself if he's dirty! Either way, that gives us stuff to work with.

----------


## Caedorus

> *Spoiler: flat_footed posts since Caedorus vote*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmm. _A_ response indeed, but not really. "I don't like you voting for me" is sort of... Towny? or very good wolfing. Usually, wolves react to pressure. Unless I'm a noob and that is nonsence.
Which means first person to convince me of a more solid wolf gets my vote. This includes you, flat. Currently leaning *Illven* - let's see what gives.

- - - Updated - - -

It's getting late over here questions quickly plz

----------


## Persolus

Honestly, I'm mostly satisfied with that. You're both slightly less than neutral in my opinion, but hey, this game _literally_ has a Tempted role, and nothing you've said would require you two to have outside communication (i.e. Mason and/or Wolf)


Fairly certain it should be all good this time!
*Spoiler: Vote Count Again*
Show


THREE VOTES
*Allando*: bladescape Aleph Null Rakkoon 
*Persolus*: Batcathat Let'sGetKraken Allando 

TWO VOTES
*Batcathat*: Metastachydium Snowblaze 
*Caedorus*: JeenLeen 3SecondCultist 

ONE VOTE
*flat_footed*: AvatarVecna 
*Snowblaze*: Illven 
*AvatarVecna*: Cazero 
*bladescape*: flat_footed 
*Benoojian*: Book Wombat 
*Rakkoon*: Xihirli 
*Lady Serpentine*: Persolus 
*Cazero*: Benoojian 
*Aleph Null*: Grand Arbiter 
*Illven*: Caedorus 

NO VOTES
*Metastachydium*: 
*Let'sGetKraken*: 
*Grand Arbiter*: 
*JeenLeen*: 
*3SecondCultist*: 
*Book Wombat*: 
*Xihirli*: 

_PLEASE_  VOTE
*Lady Serpentine*

----------


## AvatarVecna

>

----------


## Illven

> What? Let the man implicate himself if he's dirty! Either way, that gives us stuff to work with.


Is the man 3secondcultist, or me?

Cause if its me, she/her plz.

----------


## JeenLeen

Anyone know what Rakkoon post AV is "quoting" and responding to, or is Rakkoon really post a meme and I missed it?

----------


## Allando

OK, clarification:
I think what Caedorus said _looks_ wolfy. I then counter that with "if he were wolf, he'd be more careful". In the light of these, I vote random. 
Between us two I think we might be generating as much discussion as The Thing a few games ago lol. Keep it up  :Small Wink: !
I will definitely look into the people voting for us for potential wolves going for a miselimination. For now, I don't want to accidentally randomvote eliminate someone so *I'm unvoting Persolus.*

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Anyone know what Rakkoon post AV is "quoting" and responding to

----------


## Xihirli

> OK, clarification:
> I think what Caedorus said _looks_ wolfy. I then counter that with "if he were wolf, he'd be more careful". In the light of these, I vote random. 
> Between us two I think we might be generating as much discussion as The Thing a few games ago lol. Keep it up !
> I will definitely look into the people voting for us for potential wolves going for a miselimination. For now, I don't want to accidentally randomvote eliminate someone so *I'm unvoting Persolus.*


But if Caedorus KNEW that hed look wolfy if careful, hed have poisoned his own glass!

----------


## bladescape

Oh. Huh.

Alright.

*Cazero*

----------


## Benoojian

> [Spoiler= order of events on the Ilven thing]
> 
> Can people please check this? Is there a plausible explanation for town just... accepting an invalid characterisation of their play like this?


Plausible? Maybe. It looks like Ilven and 3SC have a backchannel and that 3SC is the one that slipped up. That doesn't necessarily mean they're wolves, but it seems more likely than them being Masons or having connected boons.

----------


## flat_footed

> Snow, Persolus, flat, BCH: what do you all think of Illven thus far?


Pretty null for the moment besides their question to me below, though I haven't gone back to reread yet. Definitely going to expand my thoughts on what may or may not be involved with power usage. Book slipped a public power past us way back when.




> Also Flatfooted, can I have the first letter of what was scrubbed from post 58, I need it for reasons.


The man sighs heavily, adjusting his cloak as he strides forward. "There are many who seek to peer beyond the veil of blood; you are not the first. That knowledge is forbidden except for those already lost to madness. I regret to inform you, Illven, that you will not find the answers you seek here. If nothing else, look to the stars."




> Hmm. _A_ response indeed, but not really. "I don't like you voting for me" is sort of... Towny? or very good wolfing. Usually, wolves react to pressure. Unless I'm a noob and that is nonsence.
> Which means first person to convince me of a more solid wolf gets my vote. This includes you, flat. Currently leaning *Illven* - let's see what gives.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> It's getting late over here questions quickly plz


Being at 2 votes so early into day 1, added to you not really having a reason to vote for me other that ****s and/or giggles, doesn't really force much of a response from me. AV's vote for me is more concerning due to my continued belief it may have something to do with power usage. Or it's also just for fun and games and I'm just being paranoid. There's definitely a world where AV is just not trying to burn themselves out and instead enjoying the memes.

----------


## Batcathat

> Plausible? Maybe. It looks like Ilven and 3SC have a backchannel and that 3SC is the one that slipped up. That doesn't necessarily mean they're wolves, but it seems more likely than them being Masons or having connected boons.


Huh. That might actually be the most plausible explanation for it (though I'm not sure why you think wolves would automatically be more likely than some other connection). My gut is still more suspicious of Persolus, but it might make more sense to lynch Illven or Cultist, if there's a reasonable chance of catching two wolves for the price of one. It's late here, so I'll have to save any rereading and rethinking for tomorrow and I'd love to hear anyone else's thoughts on it.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Being at 2 votes so early into day 1, added to you not really having a reason to vote for me other that ****s and/or giggles, doesn't really force much of a response from me. AV's vote for me is more concerning due to my continued belief it may have something to do with power usage. Or it's also just for fun and games and I'm just being paranoid. There's definitely a world where AV is just not trying to burn themselves out and instead enjoying the memes.





> AvatarVecnaMetastachydiumBatcathatflat_footedBook WombatLady SerpentinePersolusGrand ArbiterbladescapeIllvenJeenLeenAleph NullLet'sGetKrakenSnowblazeCaedorusAllandoCazeroXihirli3SecondCultistBenoojianRakkoon





> Lynch: [roll0]

----------


## Caedorus

Now going to bed, will not answer questions.
I double-checked so I really hope I didn't miss any questions.

----------


## Grand Arbiter

Nobody has earned my attention enough to warrant my vote being moved so Im going to leave it for now. Mix of usual D1 dearth of information and new (to me) players I dont know how to judge.

AV, Im curious how long the meme communication holds up. Your proficiency is rather amusing so far.

----------


## JeenLeen

I took the time to mostly reread the thread.  I got a bit tired the last page or two, so my reading comprehension started to fail about when heat started on Illven, but here's my thoughts as we near the last day of D1.

_Possible relationships_
If Caedorus flips wolf, suspect Allando.  Maybe also suspect Persolus, as Ceadorus' main defender.3SC and Caedorus are not both wolves.  3SC and Allando are probably not both wolves.bladescape and Allando are probably not both wolves.  His vote on Allando put Allando in a hot seat.  Similarly, rakkoon and Allando likely not both wolves.  (Maybe they'd bus an ally D1 for towncred, so "maybe not" instead of a hard "not both wolves")<redacting some other thoughts as movements last bit of D1 might invalidate, and I'm too tired after rereading to know if it's just gut feeling, actual logic, or misreading/counting something.>

_Other notes_
I get why folk think Allando looks suspicious regardless of Caedorus' alignment, but I still think Caedorus looks more suspicious.I'm intrigued by bladescape's suspicions.  I reckon there's something besides poking to see if folk squirm.I don't care for post 81 by Cazero.  I can understand players being quiet D1, but his post with little content amidst a lot of discussion feels like trying to participate but not really participating.Rereading it all, Persolus seems iffier to me than before.  Even though I buy his explanation for the Too Much Information about alignment distribution--even if he's wolf or Tempted, his rationale makes sense and it's an odd/pointless thing to lie about--something rings hollow in this posts overall.  And he plans to build an ISO against me, but then ISOs Illven instead?   Nothing solid against him, but some gut feelings.I kinda get but kinda don't get the heat on Illven.  Made a mistake, or didn't correct someone else's mistake?  The latter could be a townie not wanting to seem overly defensive and thus draw heat, or just she didn't initially notice it or care that much.  But, again, by the time I reread up to the Illven-heat part, it was late and I was pretty tired.  Seems the strongest (or at least most vocal) against her are Persolus and Snowblaze, with maybe 3SC with his mistake about Illven and asking why she didn't correct him.  I don't think I'll get a good handle on that until we know more from info-gaining powers or alignment reveals.  If someone wants to spell it out in a well-made paragraph, much appreciated.I'd like to hear comments on if lynching/vig-killing the Narrator would be pro-town, pro-Tempted, and/or pro-Corrupted.  Question was raised, but no real discussion.

I had two wolfleans I didn't want to share earlier, one from it being silly, the other from wanting others to talk first.  I don't see much point in mentioning the second yet, so I'll just tell the first.

Something about Snowblaze's RP rubs me the wrong way.  I'm usually loathe to vote someone for RP, but her RP feels of one who has chosen evil.  That'd be a silly reason in most games, but, in this one, maybe it's a method for converting.  This is the "silly reason" for a wolf-lean I have on a person.  Or, if not wolf yet, Tempted.
As I reread, though, it occurs to me that she talked about her wolf playstyle a lot.  Albeit in response to others, but more than she had to and that seems odd, as it draws to mind thinking of her as a wolf.  Her talking about her wolfgame so openly kinda makes me think a wolf doing a bold WIFOM, in that why would a wolf talk about being a wolf.  And I think I've seen Snowblaze be a very bold wolf in the past.

I would call her conversation towny, but as she herself has noted, she can do that as a wolf or anti-town neutral.
Also, in post 70, LetsGetKraken kinda defends Snowblaze.  Something to remember if Snow flips Corrupted.

*So all in all,* weak wolfleans on Allando, Persolus, Snowblaze, Cazero, and <redacted>.  But Caedorus is my strongest wolflean, and feels pretty strong by D1 reasoning.   If Caedorus flips town, some of those other wolfleans vanish or greatly weaken.
I probably should have a feel on Illven, 3SC, or Batcathat, or a different read on those who actively discussed Illven, but I'm too tired to piece together that stuff in any coherent fashion.

----------


## bladescape

Jeen can be town. That last post was good.

Regarding Snow I have high suspicion she's not wolf. I will not elaborate on this but suffice it to say that I understand holding a grain of doubt as she can be a wily person.

And for that specific reason:
*Caedorus*

- - - Updated - - -




> _"Pretentious I may be," she replied, very deliberately keeping her hands by her sides, "but at least I'm not cliched enough to hide my face behind a cloak." 
> 
> She sat nevertheless, positioned so she was close enough to the general discussion to play her part in it but could still exchange friendly insults with the cloaked figure. "And of course I have garnered attention," she continued. "I am nothing without my audience, after all."_


_"Oh come now." The response was accompanied by a quiet chuckle, the attempted sound of being affronted instead ruined by the amusement. "Cliches are just a way of saying something is popular. And the cloak is stylish."

"But enough about my questionable fashion decisions. I cannot help but wonder your morality. What do you think of that Caz fellow? The one who sent that delightful post basically restating his suspicion on Our Deacon of the One Handed?"_

----------


## Snowblaze

> Jeen can be town. That last post was good.
> 
> Regarding Snow I have high suspicion she's not wolf. I will not elaborate on this but suffice it to say that I understand holding a grain of doubt as she can be a wily person.
> 
> And for that specific reason:
> *Caedorus*
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> _"Oh come now." The response was accompanied by a quiet chuckle, the attempted sound of being affronted instead ruined by the amusement. "Cliches are just a way of saying something is popular. And the cloak is stylish."
> ...


That is making me mildly paranoid. Also I don't see how town!me implies wolf!Caedorus - any chance of an explanation? 

Anyway, I don't remember anything Cazero has posted so I'll have to go back and find quotes and put together an RP response (incidentally, Jeen, RPing as morally-ambiguous characters is more fun, I will do it regardless of alignment). 

Other thoughts: if people in general don't think the Ilven thing is a slip then I'm fine backing off it (I need to read Ilven-from-last-game to figure out if my vague memory of wolfreading town!Ilven was accurate and if she's been similar this game). 

I want to townlean Persolus, I liked quite a bit of his posting yesterday, but also I can't quite get past that "Pure Townies" post. 

Allando's latest explanation of his Caedorus read is surface-level plausible. Can't say I'm a fan of the unvote-without-revoting but it's at least consistent with his play so far so it's probably not actually wolfy. 

3SC is... he has some strongly-expressed opinions which I disagree with and is giving me gut pings, I'm trying to work out whether that's what I should expect of town!3SC. 

I'm starting to think bladescape might have been right about Meta, but I'd rather wait for that one to develop a bit more.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay, actually have some idea of what Cazero has done. Namely: random vote for AV, probably-joking suspicion of AV, more probably-joking suspicion of AV.

Can't say that's particularly inspiring, but probably more "poke with questions" than voteworthy atp. So that is what I shall do. 

Cazero: do you have serious reasons to suspect AV? What are your thoughts on the people who've been floated as suspects (Caedorus, Allando, Persolus, Ilven)? Do you suspect anyone outside those names, and if so why?

(Trying to actually solve while RPing is unlikely to go well, so I'll do them separately. Also it took me way too long to realise One-Handed = Vecna = AV).

- - - Updated - - -




> _"Oh come now." The response was accompanied by a quiet chuckle, the attempted sound of being affronted instead ruined by the amusement. "Cliches are just a way of saying something is popular. And the cloak is stylish."
> 
> "But enough about my questionable fashion decisions. I cannot help but wonder your morality. What do you think of that Caz fellow? The one who sent that delightful post basically restating his suspicion on Our Deacon of the One Handed?"_


_The woman in white was also struggling to hide her amusement; in her case she was betrayed by her lips, which would not stop twitching no matter how much she told them to remain still. "You and I have very different definitions of style, it seems."

"I cannot say that I like leaving it up to the fates to decide one's suspicions. To begin with, perhaps, but we have had long enough to discuss that it should be possible to make a more informed choice. It is not how I would hope a hero would behave... but many heroes can be stubborn to the point of irrationality. And it is hardly enough alone to condemn a man for making pact with the devil. We shall have to see what he does next before passing judgement. "_

(No offence intended, Cazero, just that my character has some... interesting views.)

----------


## Cazero

> Cazero: do you have serious reasons to suspect AV? What are your thoughts on the people who've been floated as suspects (Caedorus, Allando, Persolus, Ilven)? Do you suspect anyone outside those names, and if so why?


No, none, no. But I hope this will change by D2.
I'm still not very good at this game.

----------


## rakkoon

Keeping my vote but lots of new info to go on after we get the lynch info. Persolus does seem very solvy. Like the Illven discussion.




> 


I'm sus for eating a carrot?
I'm gullible because I'm eating someone else's words?
You are concerned that I'm eating too much during the holidays? Fair concern.

----------


## Batcathat

With Caedorus being the front runner, I decided to start my rereading there. There was a certain... over-explainyness that kind of rubbed me the wrong way, but that could be a personality thing rather than an alignment thing. Can anyone on that wagon sell me on it?

----------


## bladescape

> That is making me mildly paranoid. Also I don't see how town!me implies wolf!Caedorus - any chance of an explanation?


Oh.

No.

Sorry.

Townreading Jeen = Vote not the you thing.

- - - Updated - - -




> _The woman in white was also struggling to hide her amusement; in her case she was betrayed by her lips, which would not stop twitching no matter how much she told them to remain still. "You and I have very different definitions of style, it seems."
> 
> "I cannot say that I like leaving it up to the fates to decide one's suspicions. To begin with, perhaps, but we have had long enough to discuss that it should be possible to make a more informed choice. It is not how I would hope a hero would behave... but many heroes can be stubborn to the point of irrationality. And it is hardly enough alone to condemn a man for making pact with the devil. We shall have to see what he does next before passing judgement. "_
> 
> (No offence intended, Cazero, just that my character has some... interesting views.)


_"Ah, so you do not condemn those who would make a pact with a devil? Interesting. Many would." The man perked up, cloak shifting with the movement. "And to counter your earlier point, heroes are, by their very nature, stubborn to the point of irrationality. In fact, one would argue that they would not be heroes without that stubbornness."

There was another quirk of the head, then he brought one hand casually to his chest. "That one that would argue it is in fact me."_

- - - Updated - - -

I think I'm back to Meta being very sus.

But also for fun.

*BatCatHat*

Hedge me a suspicion.

- - - Updated - - -

*BatCatHat*

Uh.

May no mind to the bold name behind the curtain.

----------


## Batcathat

> *BatCatHat*
> 
> Hedge me a suspicion.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> *BatCatHat*
> 
> Uh.
> ...


I don't really have one beyond what's already been discussed, Persolus would be my first pick for gut reasons but I'm considering Illven or Cultist, since if one of them flips wolf there's probably a decent (well, higher than pure chance, at least) possibility the other one does as well. I'm still hoping to read through everything again before EoD, so hopefully I'll find something new then.

----------


## Snowblaze

_"It is not my place to judge," the woman in white replied. "Making deals with the devil is a choice each person can make. And many other people choose to kill those who do so." She shrugged. "I think it unwise to advertise too widely which I am; it only leads to one side or the other wanting you dead, and I much prefer to live."_

(I meant "the focus on the random vote doesn't make Cazero a wolf" rather than "we shouldn't condemn wolves". But let's roll with it, more chance for me to try and work out what exactly my character's moral code looks like.)

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Also, in post 70, LetsGetKraken kinda defends Snowblaze.


Look, the last two games I played, this happened:

1) I was a neutral hunting for one specific other neutral (who was also hunting me) and I went out of my way to tip my hand to Snow because she was so obviously town & solvy she couldn't possibly be the neutral. And of course she was my counterpart and only xanatos gambit bull**** stopped me from immediately losing. 
2) I wagoned Snow as a wolf because she was being really solvy and such obviously a powerful force for town and she was the serial killer.

I am not saying Snow is not a wolf. I am saying that Snow being solvy is not indicative of alignment. If she is pinging suspiciously to people, that's fine, but I was responding to a comment about how she was being very solvy and therefore town - which is absolutely not the case on it's own.

----------


## Snowblaze

> Look, the last two games I played, this happened:
> 
> 1) I was a neutral hunting for one specific other neutral (who was also hunting me) and I went out of my way to tip my hand to Snow because she was so obviously town & solvy she couldn't possibly be the neutral. And of course she was my counterpart and only xanatos gambit bull**** stopped me from immediately losing. 
> 2) I wagoned Snow as a wolf because she was being really solvy and such obviously a powerful force for town and she was the serial killer.
> 
> I am not saying Snow is not a wolf. I am saying that Snow being solvy is not indicative of alignment. If she is pinging suspiciously to people, that's fine, but I was responding to a comment about how she was being very solvy and therefore town - which is absolutely not the case on it's own.


Yup. Hence why I would have random-voted you if I'd actually remembered you were playing. 

Top three most confident reads with brief explanations, please. And anything controversial/anti-consensus. Thanks!

- - - Updated - - -

*Spoiler: cross out old votes, please!*
Show




> *Metastachydium*
> 
> For undisclosed reasons that _definitely_ don't have a word starting with R in them.





> Let's spice things up, *Flat_Footed*!





> _"One might consider you reasonably humorous, so I shall endeavour to explain our numbers game." The cloak shifts, a grin forming underneath it. Some amusement seeps through the vague exterior. "For a game of so many of us, one would assume that the likelihood that approximately one quarter of us are informed we have less than sociable interests towards the townsfolk around us." There is a lean forward as if readying oneself to pounce, but no other part of the body moves for this motion.
> 
> "But alas, many of us are merely good on the surface this game and may find ourselves tempted. Therefore I estimate the true perpetrators of this situation may be even fewer, with perhaps only 3 or 4 maximum given true malignancy. I then estimate 7 or 8 more with slightly tarnished thoughts. This leads to a potential 50/50 split between true purity and those who have a chance of corruption. This is, of course, a guess. But..." The figure trails off as it raises a single hand from beneath the cloak, an index finger held directly up as if rebuking. "Why, good sir, were you feeling so required to state why you needed to vote Persolus? It seems perhaps a tad on the overt side of things."
> 
> The finger lowered to point directly at him. "Perhaps you should tell us more, Allando"_
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> (As a side note I have reason to still believe Meta sus. I encourage people to look at that too.)





> A paladin was murdered you say?
> What faith was he following?
> Perhaps therein lies a clue.
> I actually get paid irl to make memes so staying out of that conversation. For now a name I cannot pronounce
> *Metastachydium*





> Oh. Huh.
> 
> Alright.
> 
> *Cazero*





Looking at the cryptic bastard in the cloak here. Also:

Caedorus 3: JeenLeen, Benoojian, 3SecondCultist 
Batcathat 3:  Metastachydium, Snowblaze, bladescape 
Allando 2: Aleph Null, Rakkoon
Persolus 2: Let'sGetKraken, Batcathat
Ilven 1: Caedorus
flat_footed 1: AvatarVecna
Snowblaze 1: Ilven
AvatarVecna 1: Cazero
Rakkoon 1: Xihirli
Benoojian 1: Book Wombat
bladescape 1: flat_footed
Aleph Null 1: Grand Arbiter
Lady Serpentine 1: Persolus 

Not voting: Allando, Lady Serpentine

So BCH is apparently joint top wagon now. And I may or may not have forgotten I still had an RVS vote parked there. Eh, can stay for now but I'll find somewhere else for it before EOD unless someone can sell me on wolf!BCH (still nullish). 

And we have very little consolidation. Let's see if we can fix that. 

AvatarVecna, Ilven, Cazero, Xihirli, Book Wombat, flat_footed, Grand Arbiter, Persolus, Allando, Lady Serpentine if you're here: can I get you to make either a serious vote or a vote on someone who already has votes (preferably the former)?

Meta: do you suspect Batcathat? Are you okay with them dying today? Why/why not? Who do you want to kill, if not them?

Kraken, same question but replace BCH with Persolus. 

For my part I'd be willing to vote Allando or Meta, would consider Ilven or possibly Rakkoon, anything else is going to need a decent argument and/or lack of better options.

----------


## Persolus

Think you might be a bit off with that vote count Snowblaze...

*Spoiler: Vote Count*
Show

THREE VOTES
*Batcathat*: Metastachydium bladescape Snowblaze 

TWO VOTES
*Allando*: Aleph Null Rakkoon 
*Persolus*: Batcathat Let'sGetKraken 
*Caedorus*: JeenLeen 3SecondCultist 

ONE VOTE
*Cazero*: Benoojian 
*flat_footed*: AvatarVecna 
*Snowblaze*: Illven 
*AvatarVecna*: Cazero 
*bladescape*: flat_footed 
*Benoojian*: Book Wombat 
*Rakkoon*: Xihirli 
*Lady Serpentine*: Persolus 
*Aleph Null*: Grand Arbiter 
*Illven*: Caedorus 

UNSCATHED
*Metastachydium*: 
*Let'sGetKraken*: 
*Grand Arbiter*: 
*JeenLeen*: 
*3SecondCultist*: 
*Book Wombat*: 
*Xihirli*: 

NOT VOTING AGAIN
*Lady Serpentine*
*Allando*


[...i may or may not have literally made a spreadsheet to keep the first days' issues from happening again]

----------


## 3SecondCultist

Apologies for not posting last night. I sat down to do so but got a splitting migraine and couldn't focus much.

Now, first things first, to clarify my position regarding the Illven matter. I mentioned in an earlier post that I didn't think it was a slip, and I still genuinely don't. I was the one who made the mistake: for some reason I got it in my head that Illven had voted Allando, but looking back I saw no such thing. As an aside, this is why I wanted an ISO in the first place (yes, AV, I see you shaking your head in meme format). Still find it curious that she didn't correct me when I said that she was 'off' of Allando when I mentioned it, but I don't think it's inherently wolf vibes. 

My vote stays on Caedorus, who I have outlined genuine reasons for suspecting, and who IMO is still the best shot D1 for a lynch.

As for some other reads, let's see:

*JeenLeen:* The towniest read I have so far. If there was any doubt, their big post about 8 hours ago dispelled it for me. We are thinking too many of the same things and aligning too well for it to be a pocket for me, which is exactly what happened with bladescape in the town game where AV and I were Masons together.

*Snow:* Is being her usual solvy self. Does this mean she's town? Hell no (as Kraken so eloquently stated). But she's useful to keep around regardless of alignment, if only because where she points will eventually have to be NAI unless she busses literally all of her teammates again. Though, she did this last time as the final wolf and I ignored my gut about her. Hmmm. Still north of neutral for now.

*Allando:* Weirdly, as I look back on Allando I am actually getting faint town vibes. Yes, he admits to coaching his brother, but I believe him that it was in good faith before the game started properly. Taking that interaction away, I see pretty much nothing to indicate a wolf. Of course, 'not being a wolf' =/= 'being town' in a game with four alignments, but I could see a Hero here.

*AV:* Does not compute. Memes = ???. The memes have been more playful than helpful overall. Someone (not bothering to go back and look right now, will do so later) said that it's way more likely that AV is posting in meme format as some kind of self-imposed challenge to fulfill a boon or something, and I think I agree with that. It's crazy for Rogan to force a player to speak only through pictures. Do I think wolf!AV would willingly hamstring their team by choosing not to post their loquacious and well-reasoned - if occasionally inflammatory - arguments? No, I don't. So probably north of neutral, if in a convoluted way.

*Kraken, Ti, Meta, Benoojian:* Null due to lack of content. If you could post more so we can all nitpick your every word, that would be great. 

*Persolus:* I want to townread them, but I can't do it with much confidence. My radar is telling me that Persolus is being more confident and assertive in his gameplay. I'm trying to do the same, so I want to think we're on the same page. But it's possible that they're either being coached by a wolfteam, or they're just more confident in their accusations by dint of being a wolf in the first place. Putting Persolus just a bit below neutral - my weakest wolflean, if I had to pick one.

*Illven:* Squarely south of neutral for me. Taking the supposed 'slip' out of the equation for a moment, I'm still looking at her posts and seeing a high ratio of blanket accusations to actual reasoning. That shouldn't be wolfy in and of itself - and as AV so glaringly pointed out, a lack of content isn't enough to condemn someone - but I still don't like it.

*Caedorus:* I've already explained my logic for why he's at the bottom of my dog list. Unless given a compelling reason to switch or there really is no point to voting (because of other wagons), I'm likely going to stay here today.

I do not have reads on BCH, bladescape, or Aleph Null yet. Need to do some re-reading there.

----------


## bladescape

Hm.

I didn't realise BCH was lead wagon.

*flat_footed*

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> Hm.
> 
> I didn't realise BCH was lead wagon.
> 
> *flat_footed*


I get the move away from BCH, but why vote for flat here? You are effectively splitting the lead wagons even more.

What about flat is suspicious enough to you to put him tied in the lead?

----------


## bladescape

> I get the move away from BCH, but why vote for flat here? You are effectively splitting the lead wagons even more.
> 
> What about flat is suspicious enough to you to put him tied in the lead?


I will call it an experiment.

 :Small Smile:

----------


## JeenLeen

> I think I'm back to Meta being very sus.


Three questions:
1) can you put into words why you find Meta suspicious?
2) will you write those words to share?
3) if yes to #1 and no to #2, why not?

I don't actually expect a clear answer from you, but with how much you've mentioned Meta through the Day I'd appreciate one.




> Look, the last two games I played, this happened:
> 
> 1) I was a neutral hunting for one specific other neutral (who was also hunting me) and I went out of my way to tip my hand to Snow because she was so obviously town & solvy she couldn't possibly be the neutral. And of course she was my counterpart and only xanatos gambit bull**** stopped me from immediately losing. 
> 2) I wagoned Snow as a wolf because she was being really solvy and such obviously a powerful force for town and she was the serial killer.
> 
> I am not saying Snow is not a wolf. I am saying that Snow being solvy is not indicative of alignment. If she is pinging suspiciously to people, that's fine, but I was responding to a comment about how she was being very solvy and therefore town - which is absolutely not the case on it's own.


I retract my statement that you were defending her.




> For my part I'd be willing to vote Allando or Meta, would consider Ilven or possibly Rakkoon, anything else is going to need a decent argument and/or lack of better options.


I can understand a vote on Allando or Illven, but why Meta?  Anything beyond bladescape's comments?
Anything on Rakkoon?  I guess they haven't posted much of value D1, despite posting stuff, and that can be a "look participating but not participating" tactic wolves go for.

I feel like I should suspect a similar tactic looking at AV, flat_footed, Book Wombat, and Xihirli, too.  But AV is doing her meme thing, flat_footed and Book Wombat are usually quiet, and Xihirli is so hard to read that few/low-content posts from her don't really ping anything to me.

----------


## Persolus

> I get the move away from BCH, but why vote for flat here? You are effectively splitting the lead wagons even more.
> 
> What about flat is suspicious enough to you to put him tied in the lead?


I have two theories about why people in general might want evenly split wagons/are more cautious with voting.

a) they have a role/boon that activates when one or more people are tied for the lynch.
b) the Tempted trigger involves being on the wagon for a lynch of a non-Corrupted.

----------


## Snowblaze

Yup, can confirm that Benoojian is voting for Cazero, not Caedorus. In my defence they both start with Ca and have an o and an r and an e somewhere. (Thanks.)

- - - Updated - - -

I suspect Meta for Reasons. (I think their play so far has been characteristic of wolf!Meta, but I want to see if they keep doing those things since I'm not that confident yet and announcing what those things are will ruin my ability to do that.)

Rakkoon is pretty much for what you said with a side of "their reads felt too consensus-y" and vague gut. Definitely my weakest wolflean.

----------


## bladescape

> Three questions:
> 1) can you put into words why you find Meta suspicious?
> 2) will you write those words to share?
> 3) if yes to #1 and no to #2, why not?
> 
> I don't actually expect a clear answer from you, but with how much you've mentioned Meta through the Day I'd appreciate one.


3. Because I am a well-known player and I could easily influence the state of the game by putting together a case on why I think someone is sus. 

Even if I am right, seeing other people muddle through it and either agree or disagree gives more information than if I just step up and flip them.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> I will call it an experiment.


I _want_ to find this comment suspicious, but you're basically winking at me through the internet. Damn you, bladescape!  :Small Big Grin: 




> I have two theories about why people in general might want evenly split wagons/are more cautious with voting.
> 
> a) they have a role/boon that activates when one or more people are tied for the lynch.
> b) the Tempted trigger involves being on the wagon for a lynch of a non-Corrupted.


Both are interesting theories. I suspect that some folks have both boons and roles with at least one power, so it's not hard to imagine at least one person having a trigger on a split vote or a mislynch. I really hope it's the former though; the latter would be brutal for town, since they would effectively get punished for solving the game. That could lead to just an unavoidable loss later down the line. Though, of course, Rogan did say this game wouldn't necessarily be balanced!

----------


## bladescape

> I _want_ to find this comment suspicious, but you're basically winking at me through the internet. Damn you, bladescape!


My, what big pockets you have grandma!

----------


## Persolus

> Both are interesting theories. I suspect that some folks have both boons and roles with at least one power, so it's not hard to imagine at least one person having a trigger on a split vote or a mislynch. I really hope it's the former though; the latter would be brutal for town, since they would effectively get punished for solving the game. That could lead to just an unavoidable loss later down the line. Though, of course, Rogan did say this game wouldn't necessarily be balanced!


Yeah, for a bunch of different reasons I feel like the latter option (i.e. Corrupted) is more likely, but put it this way: I don't think that Rogan emphasising the proper way to unvote/make a null vote was without reason.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> My, what big pockets you have grandma!


All the better for smothering you in, my dear!

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Yup. Hence why I would have random-voted you if I'd actually remembered you were playing. 
> 
> Top three most confident reads with brief explanations, please. And anything controversial/anti-consensus. Thanks!
> 
> .......
> 
> Kraken, same question but replace BCH with Persolus.


I'm sorry Snow - I respect the meta of trying to solve D1 and understand the value of it later in the game, but until we get more information to work off of I simply do not have the energy to put into poring through 150 messages of largely nothing looking for detailed inconsistencies across 21 players. 

Persolus and Jeen read a little sus to me, purely gut-based. Both feel like they're overcompensating. 3Second always feels suspicious to me but that's personal bias. The vig (assuming we have one) should probably shoot AV, since if they're not contributing (or going to really be contributing) outside of low-impact and low-information memes, we may as well rid ourselves of a potential threat without much risk at all.

----------


## Snowblaze

> I'm sorry Snow - I respect the meta of trying to solve D1 and understand the value of it later in the game, but until we get more information to work off of I simply do not have the energy to put into poring through 150 messages of largely nothing looking for detailed inconsistencies across 21 players. 
> 
> Persolus and Jeen read a little sus to me, purely gut-based. Both feel like they're overcompensating. 3Second always feels suspicious to me but that's personal bias. The vig (assuming we have one) should probably shoot AV, since if they're not contributing (or going to really be contributing) outside of low-impact and low-information memes, we may as well rid ourselves of a potential threat without much risk at all.


Understandable, once I've reminded myself that not everyone is as hopelessly addicted to this as I am. Thanks anyway, that's still better than nothing. Looking forward to seeing your thoughts D2!

Is it bad that part of me wants vig to shoot AV purely for the irony? (Yes. This is not a serious suggestion.)

----------


## Illven

> AvatarVecna, Ilven, Cazero, Xihirli, Book Wombat, flat_footed, Grand Arbiter, Persolus, Allando, Lady Serpentine if you're here: can I get you to make either a serious vote or a vote on someone who already has votes (preferably the former)?


Let's see, between the four people with more then one vote.

Batcathat. I'm more inclined to trust them due to being my mason buddy in my last game, if I'm being honest. I get logic-wise it's a mistake, but emotionally I'm primed to trust them more.

Allando. While I think it's probably in some way they are linked to Caederous. I am unsure if they are wolf, mason buddies, or some strange wolf, mason pair like bladescape thought me and Bat were during our dance.  :Small Tongue: 

Persolous Slight wolf vibes? Maybe?

Caedorous Has my strongest wolf vibes now.




AAAAAA Should have asked me this yesterday when I was off.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## AvatarVecna



----------


## Batcathat

Finally got around to rereading (well, reskimming, at least) the thread, so here are some random comments. Nothing really new in either direction as far as reads are concerned. 




> ...I swear, this isn't me becoming a regular and joining in on the tradition of "Lynch AV Day 1 No Matter What"


I'm always a little suspicious when people feel the need to explain or justify their placeholder votes, but it's very, very minor wolf points at the most.




> (Yes, this is a random vote, in case it comes up.)


See above.




> Also, since I've forgotten about them once already, *Lady Serpentine*, how's it going? Any thoughts thus far?


This reminds me, *@Rogan:* Do you have any rules for inactive players?




> Caedorus has been given advice: by me, before the game started and we got our roles.


I'm leaning towards giving town points for this (or at least leaning towards unpairing Allando and Caedorus) since I feel like wolf buddies would be likely to downplay any connection between themselves.




> Wait. 
> Wait.
> When exactly did Illven go on Allando?


As much as I hate to admit it (the three of them being my primary lynch candidates at the moment), if Illven and Cultist are wolves, Persolus almost certainly isn't.




> Plausible? Maybe. It looks like Ilven and 3SC have a backchannel and that 3SC is the one that slipped up. That doesn't necessarily mean they're wolves, but it seems more likely than them being Masons or having connected boons.


I don't know if Benoojjan was the first to think of this interpretation (I certainly hadn't) or just the first one to point it out, but either way they're probably also town if Illven/Cultist are wolves.




> [...i may or may not have literally made a spreadsheet to keep the first days' issues from happening again]


Yeah, that's probably a good idea. I eventually made a spreadsheet that automatically keeps track of the vote count and vote history for me. Of course, I still have to remember to enter the correct information, making me the weakest link.  :Small Tongue:  (I also have to modify the formulas when a certain cryptic so and so keeps changing their votes...)

----------


## AvatarVecna

> *Metastachydium*





> *Metastachydium*





> *Allando*





> Allando

----------


## Benoojian

> Huh. That might actually be the most plausible explanation for it (though I'm not sure why you think wolves would automatically be more likely than some other connection). My gut is still more suspicious of Persolus, but it might make more sense to lynch Illven or Cultist, if there's a reasonable chance of catching two wolves for the price of one. It's late here, so I'll have to save any rereading and rethinking for tomorrow and I'd love to hear anyone else's thoughts on it.


    That is an assumption from a normal game where wolves nearly always have a secret chat and town and neutral only sometimes have one. This game is not only a two-power game (boon and role) but no one has mentioned that Rogan is specifically building boons to cater to each player's usual playstyle. Maybe that wasn't as obvious to other people since he had old games to look at and just presented the boons as fait accompli to most of you. 

Any reason Ilven or Cultist would be given a backchannel boon?

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> Let's see, between the four people with more then one vote.
> 
> Batcathat. I'm more inclined to trust them due to being my mason buddy in my last game, if I'm being honest. I get logic-wise it's a mistake, but emotionally I'm primed to trust them more.
> 
> Allando. While I think it's probably in some way they are linked to Caederous. I am unsure if they are wolf, mason buddies, or some strange wolf, mason pair like bladescape thought me and Bat were during our dance. 
> 
> Persolous Slight wolf vibes? Maybe?
> 
> Caedorous Has my strongest wolf vibes now.


Strongly disagree on the Allando / Caedorus pairing, for what it's worth. I no longer suspect Allando pretty much at all, while Caedorus' actions are still suspect. If Caedorus is a wolf - which it seems we see eye to eye on - then I think Allando is town.

Are you planning on moving your vote off of Snowblaze? If so, are you going to vote Caedorus or someone else? Why/why not? I would love to hear more on this, since EoD is in less than 5 hours at this point.




> That is an assumption from a normal game where wolves nearly always have a secret chat and town and neutral only sometimes have one. This game is not only a two-power game (boon and role) but no one has mentioned that Rogan is specifically building boons to cater to each player's usual playstyle. Maybe that wasn't as obvious to other people since he had old games to look at and just presented the boons as fait accompli to most of you. 
> 
> Any reason Ilven or Cultist would be given a backchannel boon?


Illven and I have never interacted seriously in a WW game before, to my knowledge. I've seen her name around the forums, but we don't have a history or connection that would warrant a shared boon by itself.

I can confirm that Rogan's boon for me was catered to me. I'll even share it if you want, since it has pretty much no bearing on my alignment or role. It's decently strong as well.


*Spoiler: Vote Count*
Show

TWO VOTES
*Allando*: Aleph Null; Rakkoon 
*Persolus*: Batcathat; Let'sGetKraken 
*Caedorus*: JeenLeen; 3SecondCultist 
*flat_footed*: AvatarVecna; bladescape
*Batcathat*: Metastachydium; Snowblaze 

ONE VOTE
*Cazero*: Benoojian 
*Snowblaze*: Illven 
*AvatarVecna*: Cazero 
*bladescape*: flat_footed 
*Benoojian*: Book Wombat 
*Rakkoon*: Xihirli 
*Lady Serpentine*: Persolus 
*Aleph Null*: Grand Arbiter 
*Illven*: Caedorus 

UNSCATHED
*Metastachydium*: 
*Let'sGetKraken*: 
*Grand Arbiter*: 
*JeenLeen*: 
*3SecondCultist*: 
*Book Wombat*: 
*Xihirli*: 

NOT VOTING AGAIN
*Lady Serpentine*
*Allando*


Everyone: we have less than 5 hours until EoD, and there are 5 tied wagons at 2 votes apiece. Folks who are only on a single vote (that's Benoojian, Illven, Cazero, flat, BW, Xi, Persolus, Grand Arbiter, and Caedorus) will you consider moving your vote to any of the top wagons? Who are your top wolfreads right now, if any?

----------


## Illven

I will probably move it off snowblaze, and onto Cae.

I have to go, I'll probably revote on my first break which will be well before EoD.

----------


## Xihirli

> Strongly disagree on the Allando / Caedorus pairing, for what it's worth. I no longer suspect Allando pretty much at all, while Caedorus' actions are still suspect. If Caedorus is a wolf - which it seems we see eye to eye on - then I think Allando is town.
> 
> Are you planning on moving your vote off of Snowblaze? If so, are you going to vote Caedorus or someone else? Why/why not? I would love to hear more on this, since EoD is in less than 5 hours at this point.
> 
> 
> 
> Illven and I have never interacted seriously in a WW game before, to my knowledge. I've seen her name around the forums, but we don't have a history or connection that would warrant a shared boon by itself.
> 
> I can confirm that Rogan's boon for me was catered to me. I'll even share it if you want, since it has pretty much no bearing on my alignment or role. It's decently strong as well.
> ...


Hmm, good point.
*UNVOTE: Rakkoon

VOTE: Batcathat*. You know what you did.

----------


## Batcathat

> VOTE: Batcathat[/COLOR][/B]. You know what you did.


Not really, no.  :Small Confused: 

Anyhow, I do agree with the general idea of having the votes spread a little less thin (especially now that I'm top wagon again). Though out of the obvious options, the only one I'm actually actively suspecting is who I'm already voting, so it'd be neat if anyone felt like joining me on the Persolus wagon (or presenting a good case for someone else). 

Does anyone know what the tie rules are, by the way?

----------


## Snowblaze

Okay, I don't actually want to get BCH killed, I don't think there's been enough of a case to justify them being lead wagon. As such, *Allando* is my preference. Confidence low but not completely non-existent.

Alternatively if bladescape wants to stop being cryptic and reaction testing and vote Meta I would be happy to join him. 

Also "we need to consolidate" was my point first, Xihirli.

Also also I may regret this but I think 3SC is town.

Should be able to check in and change vote if needed before EOD.

----------


## Book Wombat

> AvatarVecna, Ilven, Cazero, Xihirli, Book Wombat, flat_footed, Grand Arbiter, Persolus, Allando, Lady Serpentine if you're here: can I get you to make either a serious vote or a vote on someone who already has votes (preferably the former)?


I'm here (now). My vote is very serious, I do want to know why I shouldn't be an ojian.

- - - Updated - - -

Honestly do not have any reads. *business

----------


## AvatarVecna

*Spoiler: gut reactions*
Show




> Hello everyone! I'm Persolus and think that you shouldn't kill me first round!
> 
> According to the unholy knowledge invested in my through the Google Random Number Generator, i believe that my first vote must be *AvatarVecna*.
> 
> *...I swear, this isn't me becoming a regular and joining in on the tradition of "Lynch AV Day 1 No Matter What"*





> Although I dislike the meme-posting and thus feel inclined to vote for flat_footed or AV, *I find a vote shift this early in the game to be a tad suspicious.*
> 
> Caedorus, why did you vote flat_footed?





> _Because of course there was a hidden royal heir. That was how these things always seemed to work. Well, hopefully this one was of the less obnoxious kind. The woman in white sighed and rose to her feet. 
> 
> "You have summoned me," she said, "and I have come. What would you ask of me?" Never let it be said of her that she had not played her part to perfection when it was required._





> Jokes aside, reads:
> Basically, anyone could be it. I think Caedorus was overdoing it on the sarcastic anger and not actually trying to be defensive, but I agree it looks sus. *I'd usually pass on voting at this stage because of no info, but Persolus asked really nicely.*





> _"'Your Evilness' is always a good title. Does rather run the risk of summoning heroes to kill you, but I've always thought those things don't matter so much. You should embrace who you are. As for my title?" 
> 
> She shrugged. "Telling you my true title would rather spoil my air of mystery. I'll answer to 'my Lady'."_





> **scrubbed**
> 
> *I think Allando might have good reasons for being careful with who to vote for, but we'll see about that.*





> OK, clarification:
> I think what Caedorus said _looks_ wolfy. I then counter that with "if he were wolf, he'd be more careful". In the light of these, I vote random. 
> Between us two I think we might be generating as much discussion as The Thing a few games ago lol. Keep it up !
> I will definitely look into the people voting for us for potential wolves going for a miselimination. *For now, I don't want to accidentally randomvote eliminate someone so* *I'm unvoting Persolus.*





> I get the move away from BCH, but why vote for flat here? You are effectively splitting the lead wagons even more.
> 
> *What about flat is suspicious enough to you to put him tied in the lead?*








> Null due to lack of content: Book Wombat, Cazero, Let'sGetKraken, Lady Serpentine, Grand Arbiter, Metastachydium, Benoojian
> 
> [...]
> 
> Eh, I can kind of see why these people might be suspicious but I don't really believe in it sufficiently to be interested in pushing them: Persolus, Rakkoon, Aleph Null, Ilven
> 
> [...]
> 
> Wolflean pending explanation of Caedorus progression: Allando
> ...





> For my part I'd be willing to vote Allando or Meta, would consider Ilven or possibly Rakkoon, anything else is going to need a decent argument and/or lack of better options.







> AV, Im curious how long the meme communication holds up. Your proficiency is rather amusing so far.

----------


## Benoojian

> I'm here (now). My vote is very serious, I do want to know why I shouldn't be an ojian.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Honestly do not have any reads. *business


You're seperating at the wrong place. It was my Jedi name when I was like 7. Ben Ooj-Ian. You could be an Ooj-Ian if you're related to me I guess.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> Hmm, good point.
> *UNVOTE: Rakkoon
> 
> VOTE: Batcathat*. You know what you did.


No seriously, what did BCH do? Count me in also as kinda lost by that.  :Small Confused: 




> Okay, I don't actually want to get BCH killed, I don't think there's been enough of a case to justify them being lead wagon. As such, *Allando* is my preference. Confidence low but not completely non-existent.
> 
> Alternatively if bladescape wants to stop being cryptic and reaction testing and vote Meta I would be happy to join him. 
> 
> Also "we need to consolidate" was my point first, Xihirli.
> 
> Also also I may regret this but I think 3SC is town.
> 
> Should be able to check in and change vote if needed before EOD.


See, I know I should be happy that you're townreading me now, but it kind of looks like pocketing. 

_Narrows eyes at Snow, remembering last game..._

I hate this game. 

Also: I still don't understand why you're voting Allando. If you really do think I might be town, won't you at least consider that I may be right and Allando is not wolfy or paired with Cae or anything? There is a simple, obvious explanation to their interaction that has already been spelled out - at least to my satisfaction. Why not just vote Cae if you want to prove that theory?

New player or not, I think Cae is way more suspicious of the two of them. You've expressed hesitation to vote there though, and I guess I'm looking for a bit more explanation. Happy to revisit my own position if it helps.




> Gut-pings


Curiouser and curiouser. I find it super interesting that you circled Snowblaze twice there for what is essentially her RP stuff, but you also circled me for a genuine question about flat.

In meme format, please: who, of anyone on your wolf-dar, would you vote for today? Anyone in the top wagons?

----------


## rakkoon

> Anything on Rakkoon?  I guess they haven't posted much of value D1, despite posting stuff, and that can be a "look participating but not participating" tactic wolves go for.


This is what used to get me lynched D1 in three games in a row. I've actually made an effort of going through the top-5 post in an ISO way here, go me!




> 


The fun thing is that I hadn't noticed this and now I'll be looking at blade's lynch candidates and worrying about it if I have the same. It's a "tea in front of me" with myself   :Small Smile: 

I love the memes. Still unsure about the quoted stuff. I get that Snowblaze is sus ... can anyone translate why exactly?

Also, why was Batcathat in the lead? Did I miss something suspicious? I'll look myself because of "participating"  :Small Tongue:  .... bit wishy-washy and some solvy effort at the end. Doesn't scream wolf to me yet.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Is the man 3secondcultist, or me?


Persolus, actually.




> But if Caedorus KNEW that hed look wolfy if careful, hed have poisoned his own glass!


I, in the meantime, do not drink _Wine_.




> Huh. That might actually be the most plausible explanation for it (though I'm not sure why you think wolves would automatically be more likely than some other connection).


Because the dogs are all but guaranteed to have a doghouse chat? That said, I still don't find the alleged slip itself particularly telling in any way. Its turbulent posterity gives me somewhat more pause, in fact.




> My gut is still more suspicious of Persolus, but it might make more sense to lynch Illven or Cultist, if there's a reasonable chance of catching two wolves for the price of one. It's late here, so I'll have to save any rereading and rethinking for tomorrow and I'd love to hear anyone else's thoughts on it.


Persolus continues to feel off (but that's for meta(=/=Meta) reasons more than anything). As for the other two, I'm still not sure there's something to jump at there. I'll need to go re-read a couple things first, I'm afraid.

----------


## Xihirli

> Not really, no.


Oh. Darn, I was hoping you would, I forgot.

----------


## Snowblaze

AV, am I right in believing you're asking "what is the progression between the two posts of mine you quoted", or is it a more general "explain these reads, I don't understand them"? 

3SC, will skim through Caedorus again and let you know. I haven't spent enough time on this to have more than "vague gut impressions, some of which are stale and unreliable".

Meta, pretty sure I asked you questions at some point which you haven't answered.

----------


## Metastachydium

> I think I'm back to Meta being very sus.
> 
> But also for fun.
> 
> *BatCatHat*
> 
> Hedge me a suspicion.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> ...


You're changing your vote an awful lot for someone who claims to know who's the button to press hard from the get-go, by the way.




> Meta: do you suspect Batcathat?


Noy more than most. Not less, either.




> Are you okay with them dying today?


Yes.




> Why/why not?


We've been through this, in a life long past.




> Who do you want to kill, if not them?


You. But it can wait.




> For my part I'd be willing to vote Allando or Meta


"All talk. Always just talk."

- - - Updated - - -




> Meta, pretty sure I asked you questions at some point which you haven't answered.


I'm working through the thread. A little patience, people! I'll get to everything, eventually.

- - - Updated - - -




> Hm.
> 
> I didn't realise BCH was lead wagon.
> 
> *[COLOR="#FF0000"]flat_footed[COLOR]*


Case in point.

----------


## Illven

*Caedrous*

Sorry still on mobile, can read but can't really long post either.

----------


## Metastachydium

> I suspect Meta for Reasons.


Red alert! We have two Blades now!




> I think their play so far has been characteristic of wolf!Meta, but I want to see if they keep doing those things since I'm not that confident yet and announcing what those things are will ruin my ability to do that.


You're saying that like you've seen me be a dog a lot. You haven't.

- - - Updated - - -




> [IMG]https://www.yourtango.com/sites/default/files/image_blog/kermit-tea-meme-history-meaning.jpg[IMG]





> The fun thing is that I hadn't noticed this and now I'll be looking at blade's lynch candidates and worrying about it if I have the same. It's a "tea in front of me" with myself


Heh. Whilst I'm not a big fan of "here's a dog who doesn't know how to dog" arguments (I was accused of being a dumb wolf a tad too many times), that is indeed a remarkable coincidence. But at this stage, I'm not inclined to treat it as anything bigger than that.

----------


## Snowblaze

> Red alert! We have two Blades now!
> You're saying that like you've seen me be a dog a lot. You haven't.


Yup, my apologies for being cryptic. And once is enough if there's a sufficiently strong similarity.

Anyway, 3SC: I don't think Allando is paired with Caedorus. I think the way Allando treated Caedorus could be suspicious. And I'm not going to vote someone I don't wolfread to prove a theory. (I will reread and look back through the case on Caedorus to figure out if I should be wolfreading them, it's just I'm phoneposting and trying to keep up with new posts at the same time.)

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Curiouser and curiouser. I find it super interesting that you circled Snowblaze twice there for what is essentially her RP stuff, but you also circled me for a genuine question about flat.


https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxuk6VS-f...piZlPnP4gHoOXP




> In meme format, please: who, of anyone on your wolf-dar, would you vote for today? Anyone in the top wagons?







> I love the memes. Still unsure about the quoted stuff. I get that Snowblaze is sus ... can anyone translate why exactly?





> AV, am I right in believing you're asking "what is the progression between the two posts of mine you quoted"

----------


## Persolus

THREE VOTES
*Caedorus*: Illven JeenLeen 3SecondCultist 

TWO VOTES
*Batcathat*: Metastachydium Rakkoon 
*Allando*: Aleph Null Snowblaze 
*Persolus*: Batcathat Let'sGetKraken 
*flat_footed*: AvatarVecna bladescape 

ONE VOTE
*Cazero*: Benoojian 
*AvatarVecna*: Cazero 
*bladescape*: flat_footed 
*Benoojian*: Book Wombat 
*Rakkoon*: Xihirli 
*Lady Serpentine*: Persolus 
*Aleph Null*: Grand Arbiter 
*Illven*: Caedorus 

NO VOTES
*Snowblaze*: 
*Metastachydium*: 
*Let'sGetKraken*: 
*Grand Arbiter*: 
*JeenLeen*: 
*3SecondCultist*: 
*Book Wombat*: 
*Xihirli*: 

NOT VOTING AT THE MOMENT
*Lady Serpentine*
*Allando*

[this all assuming no major votescrew powers, of course.]

----------


## AvatarVecna



----------


## Snowblaze

Having reread the case on Caedorus I am reminded that I disagree with it. I'm second-guessing my Allando vote quite a bit, though. And I've kind of persuaded myself my 3SC townread might be invalid; I think my gut is just going to contradict whatever read I've decided there so I'm going to set him aside until we have flips.

AV: Ilven trended down because of the maybe-slip which my gut still thinks should count for something, Rakkoon because I got vague pings from something he said which felt like "contributing-without-actually-contributing". Aleph and whoever else was in my "eh" tier I didn't have any points of concern on between the two posts.

And Meta... actually I'm just going to commit to this one, it feels least wrong. *Metastachydium*.

Basically wolf!Meta has a pattern of just... offering commentary, off-topic discussion, snarky threats to kill me and a lack of actual solving. And I think that's what Meta has been doing this game. It's also notably different from town!Meta. 

I'm not fishing for quotes from past games because phoneposting, but if you want to check yourself Meta's wolf game is Utropia and his town games are Wolf Coin and UPick 2.

I'm doing a bad job of explaining but I'm actually reasonably confident on this, so company is appreciated.

----------


## Caedorus

> Strongly disagree on the Allando / Caedorus pairing, for what it's worth. I no longer suspect Allando pretty much at all, while Caedorus' actions are still suspect. If Caedorus is a wolf - which it seems we see eye to eye on - then I think Allando is town.
> 
> Are you planning on moving your vote off of Snowblaze? If so, are you going to vote Caedorus or someone else? Why/why not? I would love to hear more on this, since EoD is in less than 5 hours at this point.
> 
> 
> 
> Illven and I have never interacted seriously in a WW game before, to my knowledge. I've seen her name around the forums, but we don't have a history or connection that would warrant a shared boon by itself.
> 
> I can confirm that Rogan's boon for me was catered to me. I'll even share it if you want, since it has pretty much no bearing on my alignment or role. It's decently strong as well.
> ...


1) unpairing me and Allando. Curious and Curiouser.
2) AAAH pressure to change my vote but no advice where to AAAH




> No seriously, what did BCH do? Count me in also as kinda lost by that.


Me too.



> Persolus, actually.
> 
> 
> 
> I, in the meantime, do not drink _Wine_.
> 
> 
> 
> Because the dogs are all but guaranteed to have a doghouse chat? That said, I still don't find the alleged slip itself particularly telling in any way. Its turbulent posterity gives me somewhat more pause, in fact.
> ...





> THREE VOTES
> *Caedorus*: Illven JeenLeen 3SecondCultist 
> 
> TWO VOTES
> *Batcathat*: Metastachydium Rakkoon 
> *Allando*: Aleph Null Snowblaze 
> *Persolus*: Batcathat Let'sGetKraken 
> *flat_footed*: AvatarVecna bladescape 
> 
> ...



Ok from the top wagons I trust *Persolus* the least.
Ok if my lynch becomes inevitable I have important things to say as a legacy.
Oh, by the way, my reason I couldn't say in front of the wolves is now no longer nececcary to hide: if I'm sus, I'm less likely to get nkd. Just, it worked too well; I'm in the lead now (although possibly sharing with meta or batcathat please explain your reasoning on bat; voting for someone without reason is incredibly sus imo it looks like powerwolfing).

- - - Updated - - -

...I just realised the ONLY other top voted is *Meta* since Snow's vote.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> 1) unpairing me and Allando. Curious and Curiouser.
> 2) AAAH pressure to change my vote but no advice where to AAAH
> 
> 
> Me too.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok from the top wagons I trust *Persolus* the least.
> ...

----------


## Batcathat

> ...I just realised the ONLY other top voted is *Meta* since Snow's vote.


Do you mean by number of votes? Because even after your vote, I have Meta at two and you and Persolus at three each.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxuk6VS-f...piZlPnP4gHoOXP


Wow, screw you too I guess. 

Serves me right for actually trying to solve and dig into posts. I came up with a reads list, I'm looking at everyone, and trying to make what I see as good faith cases against people in a D1 world without flips. Asking questions is part of the game; you do it (in a game when you're not trying to be cute with memes), Snow does it, and pretty much everyone else who is town does it. Calling it 'bad faith' for me to ask for a simple follow-up explanation on blade's vote on flat is hypocritical. 

If blade has a reason for keeping that vote a secret, I can accept that. And you're even allowed to suspect me for it. But I'm equally allowed my skepticism of your highlighting my text for what I see as a genuine question. Burning me for even bringing it up is ridiculous.

Anyway, everyone vote Caedorus. If he flips town, then my gut is wrong, but I can accept it.

Caedorus: if you are going down and you're town, a legacy would be appreciated. Who are your top reads? Who do you think is most likely town?

Snow, I'm also going to be phone-posting from now until EoD but I would trust your Meta read more if I could see quotes. So I guess seconding the desire for someone to go get those.

- - - Updated - - -

And Cae ninja'd me. Good to know you're maybe working on some last minute reads (though we have about 90 minutes left).

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Wow, screw you too I guess. 
> 
> Serves me right for actually trying to solve and dig into posts. I came up with a reads list, I'm looking at everyone, and trying to make what I see as good faith cases against people in a D1 world without flips. Asking questions is part of the game; you do it (in a game when you're not trying to be cute with memes), Snow does it, and pretty much everyone else who is town does it. Calling it 'bad faith' for me to ask for a simple follow-up explanation on blade's vote on flat is hypocritical. 
> 
> If blade has a reason for keeping that vote a secret, I can accept that. And you're even allowed to suspect me for it. But I'm equally allowed my skepticism of your highlighting my text for what I see as a genuine question. Burning me for even bringing it up is ridiculous.

----------


## Batcathat

> 


Oh, I figured it out. The murderer is Detective Pikachu!

----------


## Metastachydium

> And Meta... actually I'm just going to commit to this one, it feels least wrong. [b]Metastachydium[b].


Finally!




> Basically wolf!Meta has a pattern of just... offering commentary,


What's "commentary"?




> snarky threats to kill me


Quick reminder that I had no reason to do those in UPick2 _yet_ and I did them a lot D1 in Wolf Coin.




> and a lack of actual solving.


Um, D1?




> I'm doing a bad job of explaining but I'm actually reasonably confident on this, so company is appreciated.


And you have the other half of the story now! Fact-checkers are welcome to fact-check.




> Do you mean by number of votes? Because even after your vote, I have Meta at two and you and Persolus at three each.


Yeah. That cryptic bastard Blade can't seem to zero in on me.

----------


## Allando

OK I need to choose someone to vote for. I shall reread, then vote. While I'm rereading feel free to argue your cases a little more. I am not voting Caedorus though.

- - - Updated - - -




> Wow, screw you too I guess. 
> 
> Serves me right for actually trying to solve and dig into posts. I came up with a reads list, I'm looking at everyone, and trying to make what I see as good faith cases against people in a D1 world without flips. Asking questions is part of the game; you do it (in a game when you're not trying to be cute with memes), Snow does it, and pretty much everyone else who is town does it. Calling it 'bad faith' for me to ask for a simple follow-up explanation on blade's vote on flat is hypocritical. 
> 
> If blade has a reason for keeping that vote a secret, I can accept that. And you're even allowed to suspect me for it. But I'm equally allowed my skepticism of your highlighting my text for what I see as a genuine question. Burning me for even bringing it up is ridiculous.
> 
> Anyway, everyone vote Caedorus. If he flips town, then my gut is wrong, but I can accept it.
> 
> Caedorus: if you are going down and you're town, a legacy would be appreciated. Who are your top reads? Who do you think is most likely town?
> ...


Re:color is wolfradar? Wasn't there a spoiler earlier named that? Hmmm...

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Wow, screw you too I guess.




- - - Updated - - -

----------


## Batcathat

We're getting close to 24 hours since Rogan's announcement that there was approximately that much time left. I'm guessing it'll be longer than that, but if anyone's planning to change their vote, it might be a good idea to do it pretty soon, to be on the safe side.

----------


## Caedorus

> Do you mean by number of votes? Because even after your vote, I have Meta at two and you and Persolus at three each.


oh no



> We're getting close to 24 hours since Rogan's announcement that there was approximately that much time left. I'm guessing it'll be longer than that, but if anyone's planning to change their vote, it might be a good idea to do it pretty soon, to be on the safe side.


ngggnnn
Going back to *Persolus* and yes, to save myself.

----------


## JeenLeen

Been busy real life afternoon, so not really able to keep up and I also don't really get the Batcathat wagon piling up.  All in all, I'm still thinking Caedorus seems the most iffy of all the iffy folk.

*@3SC and AV:* I think AV's is trying to say she didn't offense and you misunderstood her.  Maybe the Youtube clip link wasn't meant to describe you, but someone else?   I've been fairly at a loss to understand a lot of what she meant.




> Oh, I figured it out. The murderer is Detective Pikachu!


This post made me laugh.

----------


## Allando

*3sc* I need to go now, explain lateer.

----------


## bladescape

> You're changing your vote an awful lot for someone who claims to know who's the button to press hard from the get-go, by the way.


Pretty colours on names go brrrrr

- - - Updated - - -




> Yeah. That cryptic bastard Blade can't seem to zero in on me.


You seem awfully concerned by my potential vote on you for someone I'm not "actually" voting

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

Can someone throw together a final vote count? Urgent work file but willing to move vote depending on what's happening.

----------


## bladescape

> Can someone throw together a final vote count? Urgent work file but willing to move vote depending on what's happening.


FOUR VOTES:
Persolus: Batcathat Let'sGetKraken AvatarVecna Caedorus

THREE VOTES
Caedorus: Illven JeenLeen 3SecondCultist

TWO VOTES
Batcathat: Metastachydium Rakkoon 

ONE VOTE
Cazero: Benoojian
AvatarVecna: Cazero
bladescape: flat_footed
Benoojian: Book Wombat
Rakkoon: Xihirli
Lady Serpentine: Persolus
Aleph Null: Grand Arbiter
flat_footed: bladescape
Allando: Aleph Null
Metastachydium: Snowblaze 
3SecondCultist: Allando

NO VOTES
Snowblaze:
Illven: 
Let'sGetKraken:
Grand Arbiter:
JeenLeen:
Book Wombat:
Xihirli:

NOT VOTING AT THE MOMENT
Lady Serpentine

- - - Updated - - -

*Meta*

Guess whose back, back again.

----------


## Batcathat

> FOUR VOTES:
> Persolus: Batcathat Let'sGetKraken AvatarVecna Caedorus
> 
> THREE VOTES
> Caedorus: Illven JeenLeen 3SecondCultist
> 
> TWO VOTES
> Batcathat: Metastachydium Rakkoon 
> 
> ...


The numbers seems right, but I have Xi voting for me and Rakkoon voting for Allando.

- - - Updated - - -

So Allando should also be at two votes (assuming I'm right.  :Small Tongue:  )

----------


## AvatarVecna

> *@3SC and AV:* I think AV's is trying to say she didn't offense







> and you misunderstood her.







> Maybe the Youtube clip link wasn't meant to describe you, but someone else?







> https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxuk6VS-f...piZlPnP4gHoOXP

----------


## 3SecondCultist

AV: sorry for overreacting there. In my defense, tone is even harder to read over meme image than by text. All is good for now.  :Small Smile: 

Everyone: a little over 30 min to EoD! Any last minute vote swaps? People who are alone on someone else should absolutely consider moving at this point. The current people in the lead are Persolus and Caedorus, but there are lots of 2 vote wagons out there as well.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh and also purple elephants.

----------


## bladescape

I like Purple elephants

----------


## AvatarVecna



----------


## flat_footed

Switching to *Caedorus*, *Unvoting Bladescape*. The original OMGUS vote, the swap to me, then the fire drill voting as the days progressed feels off to me.



> There is an additional reason I can't say because wolves are listening, but rest assured it isn't because I have info on Flat.


If you're holding back on that additional thing that allegedly helps town, it's better to claim it than to let it die with you.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

So Meta and Persolus are both currently at 4, yes?

- - - Updated - - -

No, wait, Meta and Caedorus are at 4 each. Persolus is only at 3.

----------


## flat_footed

> So Meta and Persolus are both currently at 4, yes?
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> No, wait, Meta and Caedorus are at 4 each. Persolus is only at 3.


AV ninja'd me, so it's only fair I ninja'd you.

----------


## Batcathat

> So Meta and Persolus are both currently at 4, yes?


I have them at three each (AV, Snow and blade on Meta, you, me and Caedorus on Persolus), though I might've missed some recent change.

----------


## Lady Serpentine

Well. I dropped the ball a bit on this one.  

I'll try to be more active from here out. Maybe join in on the RP a bit too, it's been an age since I did that in these games. 

In the meantime let me catch up on D1.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> Well. I dropped the ball a bit on this one.  
> 
> I'll try to be more active from here out. Maybe join in on the RP a bit too, it's been an age since I did that in these games. 
> 
> In the meantime let me catch up on D1.


Good! Uh, already reading D1?

Hopefully you get a chance to read through everything and throw a post in before EoD.  :Small Cool:

----------


## Rogan

While I didn't manage to read the whole thread, times up now. Please don't post anymore till I've resolved the phase.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Well. I dropped the ball a bit on this one.  
> 
> I'll try to be more active from here out. Maybe join in on the RP a bit too, it's been an age since I did that in these games. 
> 
> In the meantime let me catch up on D1.


Quick, vote for Persolus and make it a three-way tie! :p

Edit: sorry Rogan, you ninja'd me

----------


## Allando

Caedorus went to bed *Meta* so he doesn't die without being able to claim.

- - - Updated - - -




> While I didn't manage to read the whole thread, times up now. Please don't post anymore till I've resolved the phase.


Oh whoops, feel free not to count my vote 😔

----------


## Rogan

*End of day 1*
*Spoiler: Mech*
Show

*Spoiler: Votes*
Show

AV: Metastachydium
Aleph: Allando
Allando: 3Sec
Batcathat: Persolus
Benoojian: Cazero
bladescape: Metastachydium
Book_Wombat: Benoojian
Caedorus: Persolus
Cazero: AV
Cultist: Caedrous
flat_footed: Caedorus
Grand Arbiter: Aleph Null
Illven: Caedorus
JeenLeen: Caedorus
Kraken: Persolus
Metastachydium: Batcathat
Persolus: Serpentine
Rakkoon: Allando
Snowblaze: Metastachydium
Xihirli: Batcathat


Taking into account all vote manipulation powers, this is the result:

*Caedorus*: 4


Metastachydium: 3

Allando: 2
3Sec: 1
Benoojian: 1
Persolus: 2
AV: 1
Aleph Null: 1
Batcathat: 2
Serpentine: 1

The dead flip will be delayed, sorry about this. (This is deliberate)




The first day resulted in chaos. The town was divided, and it was impossible to reach a clear decision. In the end, the narrator was highly confused and made a note not to end the day when they are on the road...

After the sentence was passed, a masked figure pushed through the ranks of the assembled citizens; the executioner had appeared. They took the condemned man with them, and the crowd divided to let them pass, knowing that the poor soul will not survive the night.

Start of Night 1. It will take approximately 22 hours. You may write in here again.
(I'll try to get a better timing next time)
(Some results are still pending, I'll get to them ASAP)

----------


## bladescape

_"Sorry folks, I must ask questions of the condemned before we kill him and check out the body. Please don't mind the delay, you'll see the blood his insides spill by dayrise. I do hope my impromptu departure won't ruin things, 'my lady'?" The cloaked man had suddenly stood up as the moments passed and the tension grew louder, winking at the sitting companion before he broke into the throng to extract the soon-to-be-dead. He waved in apology at the baying for blood, but soon vanished with his prey into the darkness._

----------


## flat_footed

> Some of the mechanics used in this game will be highly unusual and mess with the expectations of players.


No immediate death reveal, check. That one did surprise me.

----------


## Persolus

...my life certainly picked a good time to become busy; that was *waaaay* too close to being lynched for comfort. Sorry I didn't get the chance to switch my vote off you Ti!

Also, someone chopped a vote off of me?

----------


## Benoojian

Can someone with a vote spreadsheet summarize how the votes were changed by voting powers? because the counts look slightly off somehow.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Can someone with a vote spreadsheet summarize how the votes were changed by voting powers? because the counts look slightly off somehow.







> Cultist: Caedrous
> flat_footed: Caedorus
> Illven: Caedorus
> JeenLeen: Caedorus
> 
> AV: Metastachydium
> bladescape: Metastachydium
> Snowblaze: Metastachydium
> 
> ...

----------


## Persolus

> Also, someone chopped a vote off of me?


As well as Cazero?

----------


## Benoojian

So we likely don't have any vote switching powers, but rather vote canceling powers
I'm making the assumption that no two players have identical powers, which seems likely but is not guaranteed

1. Vote canceller role/boon, targeted (could be anyone)
2. role/boon that cancels a single vote against you (Persolus, Cazero) : Persolus didn't seem very concerned about being tied
3.role/boon that prevents you from casting a vote (Batcathat, Caedorus, Kraken, or me) : This feels like it'd be some kind of weird Neutral.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> 


Interesting. So the options are:

1) Persolus has a passive power (or activated during the day) where he counts as having one less vote. 
2) Someone else has a day power to remove someone else's vote.
3) One of the three of us who voted for Persolus has some form of vote manipulation.

And then the same applies to Benooj and Cazero. 

Very interesting.

----------


## Benoojian

> Interesting. So the options are:
> 
> 1) Persolus has a passive power (or activated during the day) where he counts as having one less vote. 
> 2) Someone else has a day power to remove someone else's vote.
> 3) One of the three of us who voted for Persolus has some form of vote manipulation.
> 
> And then the same applies to Benooj and Cazero. 
> 
> Very interesting.


Oh didn't even consider that the power could be to choose every day whether your public vote is real or fake. That sounds more like an Evil power than a Neutral one.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> Oh didn't even consider that the power could be to choose every day whether your public vote is real or fake. That sounds more like an Evil power than a Neutral one.


I had that power in the Pathways game as Black Emperor: got to vote publicly for someone and then vote privately to the Narrator. It is a very sneaky power.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> I had that power in the Pathways game as Black Emperor: got to vote publicly for someone and then vote privately to the Narrator. It is a very sneaky power.


Good times. Don't think we have that here - no one got more votes than they should have. I'm guessing that it's either someone messing with one of the voters or that those two have defensive voting powers. Can someone check to see if anyone typed the names of anyone who voted for Persolus or Cazero in a weird way? Like, in a colour or bolded or italicized.

----------


## Illven

So bladescape can delay posting a death flip?

Do they have any control to muddle a death flip? If so, how much can we trust flips?

----------


## JeenLeen

> So bladescape can delay posting a death flip?
> 
> Do they have any control to muddle a death flip? If so, how much can we trust flips?





> Some of the mechanics used in this game will be highly unusual and mess with the expectations of players. There will be limited information about this until the end of the game. However, as the narrator, I will not lie to you. If you receive an answer (including the results of power usages), it will be the truth. IÂll also try to avoid giving deliberately misleading answers, however you should expect answers given during the game to be limited.


Info from the narrator might need to be read carefully to avoid misinterpretation, but he won't lie.  So if someone flips and it's clearly stating that that player name is that role and alignment, I think we can trust it.  However, as he plans to "try to avoid giving deliberately misleading answers", I'd think death flips will be safe OR be muddled to such a degree we can be sure something is missing.  I don't think we'll get something fuzzy where it's simply misleading.

I wrote up some comments about the death flip being delayed, but I think they'd be best saved until D2 starts.

---

In some cult games, someone who was converted from town to cult dies with a flip like "Name, died Cult but started Town".  I wonder if we'll be able to tell the difference between original Corrupted vs. former Tempted.  
Also, if a Tempted becomes Corrupted in the same Phase they die, would they flip as Tempted or Corrupted?
*@Rogan: willing to shed any light there?*

----------


## Illven

> Info from the narrator might need to be read carefully to avoid misinterpretation, but he won't lie.  So if someone flips and it's clearly stating that that player name is that role and alignment, I think we can trust it.  However, as he plans to "try to avoid giving deliberately misleading answers", I'd think death flips will be safe OR be muddled to such a degree we can be sure something is missing.  I don't think we'll get something fuzzy where it's simply misleading.
> 
> I wrote up some comments about the death flip being delayed, but I think they'd be best saved until D2 starts.


So info might be missing but unless Bladescape is the one who posts it, it should be correct.

----------


## bladescape

> So info might be missing but unless Bladescape is the one who posts it, it should be correct.


Rogan will be the one posting death flips so no need to worry there. =P

----------


## Illven

> Rogan will be the one posting death flips so no need to worry there. =P


Allegedly  :Small Tongue:

----------


## bladescape

> Allegedly


It'll be proven in 24 hours minus however many it's been. =P

----------


## Illven

> It'll be proven in 24 hours minus however many it's been. =P


HA Joke's on you. Rogan said 22 hours from start of night!  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Benoojian

> Rogan will be the one posting death flips so no need to worry there. =P


Do you feel like sharing more about your role as executioner?

----------


## Xihirli

> It'll be proven in 24 hours minus however many it's been. =P


Or maybe not.

----------


## bladescape

> Do you feel like sharing more about your role as executioner?


Hmmmmm.

Not right now. :)

----------


## Cazero

Does it mean Caedorus can still talk?

----------


## rakkoon

> THREE VOTES
> *Batcathat*: Metastachydium Rakkoon





> Batcathat: Metastachydium Rakkoon


At NO point in time have I ever voted for Batcathat. The fact that two people are manipulating vote counts to make a fake list is very concerning.

----------


## bladescape

As far as I know Cae is dead for purposes of talking.

- - - Updated - - -




> At NO point in time have I ever voted for Batcathat. The fact that two people are manipulating vote counts to make a fake list is very concerning.


I'mma be honest I copied Pers's list and then added the changes that happened since they posted.

----------


## Snowblaze

> _"Sorry folks, I must ask questions of the condemned before we kill him and check out the body. Please don't mind the delay, you'll see the blood his insides spill by dayrise. I do hope my impromptu departure won't ruin things, 'my lady'?" The cloaked man had suddenly stood up as the moments passed and the tension grew louder, winking at the sitting companion before he broke into the throng to extract the soon-to-be-dead. He waved in apology at the baying for blood, but soon vanished with his prey into the darkness._


_Well, this was unexpected. Good. She liked unexpected. "Not at all," she said to the back of her new acquaintance; he hadn't waited for her response before diving into the crowd. 

It wasn't entirely true. She wanted to be there, asking the condemned man questions and hearing his answers. She wanted to find out the truth of the cloaked figure. For now, though, she would have to be content to wait._

Sorry for disappearing earlier, thought I'd be able to stick around for longer than I did. Anyway, most of my thoughts will have to wait until we have an actual flip but for now:

- Allando, it is now later, explain your 3SC vote?

- hi Ti, glad you made it. Looking forward to both your RP and your solving!

- if Caedorus flips town, flat can join the suspect pool for his vote there

- I still believe in my Meta read; if I have time I'll dig out quotes or try and explain it better but no promises.

----------


## Persolus

> At NO point in time have I ever voted for Batcathat. The fact that two people are manipulating vote counts to make a fake list is very concerning.


I am very sorry. I just went through all of the posts before that, and I can't tell exactly how i managed to screw that up, but I did. You have my word that it was a legitimate mistake, and I have not lied in any of the past few games (others can verify this if they'd like).

----------


## Rogan

> In some cult games, someone who was converted from town to cult dies with a flip like "Name, died Cult but started Town".  I wonder if we'll be able to tell the difference between original Corrupted vs. former Tempted.  
> Also, if a Tempted becomes Corrupted in the same Phase they die, would they flip as Tempted or Corrupted?
> *@Rogan: willing to shed any light there?*


It will be clear when a tempted was converted to corrupted.
Death Flips will happen after all powers were taken into account, so a player getting corrupted the night they die will flip as corrupted and will gain their victory condition.

Also, a dead flip might not include every important bit of knowledge, but these parts will be clearly labeled as redacted.

- - - Updated - - -




> Does it mean Caedorus can still talk?


You (generally speaking) don't know what exactly is happening at the moment, sorry.

----------


## rakkoon

> I am very sorry. I just went through all of the posts before that, and I can't tell exactly how i managed to screw that up, but I did. You have my word that it was a legitimate mistake, and I have not lied in any of the past few games (others can verify this if they'd like).


That's a very cool statement, are you one of those "I will never lie even as a wolf" kind of players? 
That would make the game extra challenging as a wolfie.

----------


## flat_footed

> That's a very cool statement, are you one of those "I will never lie even as a wolf" kind of players? 
> That would make the game extra challenging as a wolfie.


Messing up a vote count is typically NAI and NAGL. I've done it by accident and immediately caught heat for it, for better or worse.

"These are troubling times," the man whispered to himself as he watched Caedorus's form fade into the shadows. The damned man hadn't even put up a fight as the executioner drug him off. A wry smile flickered across Castleroy's face as he held a hand to his own throat. _Surrounded by a screaming mob and collared by the very specter of death._ His gaze perks up slightly as a familiar scent began to dance on the evening wind: copper. Castleroy winced in response. _Not a clean kill.. This one will linger._

----------


## Benoojian

Rogan loves being cagey about this game, but they're being extra cagey about the "Target the Narrator" thing. It's not a high priority, but there is a small chance that Rogan is the only wolf, so if there's a day with limited leads, throwing the lynch at the Narrator is probably a good idea.

----------


## Batcathat

> Rogan loves being cagey about this game, but they're being extra cagey about the "Target the Narrator" thing. It's not a high priority, but there is a small chance that Rogan is the only wolf, so if there's a day with limited leads, throwing the lynch at the Narrator is probably a good idea.


One of AV's games (Afterlife 3, I think?) was sort of like that (AV wasn't the only wolf, but killing the narrator was necessary to win the game). It's not impossible that Rogan's doing something similar, but I think it's less likely.

----------


## Snowblaze

Idly reading through Utropia, found this to Meta, mid to late D1: 



> .
> 
> Also why is half your content casual chatting and none of it talking about reads? All talk and no reads makes Blade a sus boi


(Full disclosure, bladescape was Meta's wolf partner in that game. I still think it's a decent explanation of what I was trying to say earlier.)

Actually quoting Meta would be unproductive imo since it's not really something you can illustrate with a single post, you have to go through the entire ISO to see it. 

Agreed that Rogan probably isn't *that* bastard a narrator. (Yes, it was Afterlife 3. Still slightly traumatised after that endgame.)

flat, something can't be simultaneously NAI and NAGL (Not Alignment Indicative and Not A Good Look respectively.) Unless what you're saying is "it's something people typically find suspicious but isn't actually suspicious"?

----------


## flat_footed

> flat, something can't be simultaneously NAI and NAGL (Not Alignment Indicative and Not A Good Look respectively.) Unless what you're saying is "it's something people typically find suspicious but isn't actually suspicious"?


I'm saying that people find it suspicious, but it doesn't actually provide insight into alignment. Intentionally messing with the vote count is easily caught, sooner or later, and to my recollection hasn't happened here for that reason.

----------


## Aleph Null

_Well, this is certainly interesting._ The burly yet laid-back individual said nothing, but narrowed his amber-colored eyes and put his hand to his chin pensively for a moment, then reached for a towel and dried off an ale mug as he watched the ensuing chaos in the town square. Brushing a lock of silvery hair away from his eyes, he glanced briefly at a locked drawer behind the bar. _Not yet. I'd hope it doesn't come to that, but I'll have to be prepared in case it does._
Casually flipping the 'closed' sign to 'open' he walked out slightly into the square to more closely observe the conversation. "I reckon tonight'll be a rowdy one...people do like to drink off their anxiety," he thought aloud, speaking to nobody in particular. Then he propped the door open and went behind the bar.



Lol a lot more happened after I signed off the other day, I probably should stop going to bed so early. Didn't get to read it all, but it looks like I probably should have changed my vote, since the idea behind it quickly became outdated. Welp.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

Sorry, I was out last night and then spent this morning dealing with some tax things so I haven't been around to contribute.

Shame about the delayed death flip, hm. I would like to know if I made a mistake with Caedorus. Definitely worth looking at everyone on his wagon - especially flat, who jumped in at the last minute - if he flips NC (Non-Corrupted). Votes that come into existence suddenly, like everything in nature that is born and grows fast, can't have roots and connections that will save them from being blown down by the first storm. 

(And I am the storm)

Don't think that the vote count being off is AI either. It's the kind of mistake that is so easy to go back and figure out after the fact, and you'll always have players like rakkoon who will just point it out. Not willing to give any wolf points to blade or Meta for that.

----------


## Persolus

> That's a very cool statement, are you one of those "I will never lie even as a wolf" kind of players? 
> That would make the game extra challenging as a wolfie.


Haven't quite done that yet, I would assume so? I was a Serial Killer in CandyCoated who didn't lie, but that failed for different reasons.

----------


## Snowblaze

You may want to develop a policy of responding to "are you a wolf?" with "no comment", in that case. 

_The bar was open. Good. The woman in white could use a distraction. She made her way through the crowd, ducking and weaving until she reached the entrance, then brushed herself down, straightened out her hair and strolled in as if she hadn't a care in the world.

"A pint of your finest, please," she said, perching herself on a barstool. "Been quite the day, hasn't it? What do you make of it all?" Everyone knew that bartenders and innkeepers were the best sources of gossip and information,  and she was in need of the latter._

I would also like your thoughts OOC, Aleph. Who would you have voted instead if you'd been around closer to EOD? (Feel free to wait until day to answer if you'd prefer.)

----------


## Persolus

> You may want to develop a policy of responding to "are you a wolf?" with "no comment", in that case.


That is a _very_ good point, but there are other ways around that as well  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## rakkoon

*Is this mike on?*
*Testing one two three*
Ahum
Persolus, are you a wolf?

----------


## Persolus

> *Is this mike on?*
> *Testing one two three*
> Ahum
> Persolus, are you a wolf?


No comment :)

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

Wait, we don't get to see the person's alignment before night actions are required? That seems.... very strange. So we get no information from flips until the next day?

----------


## Book Wombat

> No comment :)


You could answer with no truthfully in any case, unless your role is actually "Wolf" because the evil faction in this game is called the "corrupted".

----------


## Persolus

> You could answer with no truthfully in any case, unless your role is actually "Wolf" because the evil faction in this game is called the "corrupted".


See, Book Wombat gets it! There are plenty of ways to lie without lying!

- - - Updated - - -




> Wait, we don't get to see the person's alignment before night actions are required? That seems.... very strange. So we get no information from flips until the next day?


Also as far as I can see, the reason why this is happening is due - unless he's trolling us - to Bladescape's Role and/or Boon. So this might not happen every night, or it might be because something odd was already going on with Cae's death.

----------


## Aleph Null

> You may want to develop a policy of responding to "are you a wolf?" with "no comment", in that case. 
> 
> _The bar was open. Good. The woman in white could use a distraction. She made her way through the crowd, ducking and weaving until she reached the entrance, then brushed herself down, straightened out her hair and strolled in as if she hadn't a care in the world.
> 
> "A pint of your finest, please," she said, perching herself on a barstool. "Been quite the day, hasn't it? What do you make of it all?" Everyone knew that bartenders and innkeepers were the best sources of gossip and information,  and she was in need of the latter._
> 
> I would also like your thoughts OOC, Aleph. Who would you have voted instead if you'd been around closer to EOD? (Feel free to wait until day to answer if you'd prefer.)


I am going to have to wait until day to get a better picture, but I had some suspicion towards Caedorus and also a bit on Meta. The reason I voted where I did was to illicit a response that would give a better idea of who was helping whom out behind the scenes, plus the general presence of certain bastard mechanics that have neither been confirmed nor denied. After the vote counts I grew suspicious of Persolus as well, though I'm uncertain still because powers can be "wolfy" but still be the boon you got before game started and thus not related to your role at all. But vote altering powers are definitely wolfy, though it isn't certain who actually was manipulating the votes.
Whether or not Caedorus flips wolf is probably going to affect my decisions going forward (including tonight) which is why I'm a bit frustrated that we've been given a deadline for night actions without a clear idea of when we're going to get that information (or indeed whether we're just meant to not know that information for making those decisions)
EDIT: I was told in private that we will in fact not know that when deciding night actions.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Pretty colours on names go brrrrr
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> 
> You seem awfully concerned by my potential vote on you for someone I'm not "actually" voting


I wasn't concerned about _that_. I was concerned about your dropping unexplained votes on much everybody _other than_ the one person you claim to have suspected (who happened to be some FLOWER).




> AV: sorry for overreacting there. In my defense, tone is even harder to read over meme image than by text. All is good for now. 
> 
> Everyone: a little over 30 min to EoD! Any last minute vote swaps? People who are alone on someone else should absolutely consider moving at this point. The current people in the lead are Persolus and Caedorus, but there are lots of 2 vote wagons out there as well.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Oh and also purple elephants.





> I like Purple elephants



What's a purple elephant?




> [IMG]https://i.imgflip.com/76hnx5.jpg[IMG]


Well, I strongly hope that's not supposed to depict me, because I look nothing like that. (I'm a FLOWER!)




> ...my life certainly picked a good time to become busy; that was *waaaay* too close to being lynched for comfort. Sorry I didn't get the chance to switch my vote off you Ti!


If you can keep things that way, I'll have a question for you come D2.




> Also, someone chopped a vote off of me?


Wasn't me.




> Info from the narrator might need to be read carefully to avoid misinterpretation, but he won't lie.  So if someone flips and it's clearly stating that that player name is that role and alignment, I think we can trust it.  However, as he plans to "try to avoid giving deliberately misleading answers", I'd think death flips will be safe OR be muddled to such a degree we can be sure something is missing.  I don't think we'll get something fuzzy where it's simply misleading.


Now I like you. I hope you're right.




> Actually quoting Meta would be unproductive imo since it's not really something you can illustrate with a single post, you have to go through the entire ISO to see it.


You could just dig up a pre-existing ISO and link the post.




> _Well, this is certainly interesting._ The burly yet laid-back individual said nothing, but narrowed his amber-colored eyes and put his hand to his chin pensively for a moment, then reached for a towel and dried off an ale mug as he watched the ensuing chaos in the town square. Brushing a lock of silvery hair away from his eyes, he glanced briefly at a locked drawer behind the bar. _Not yet. I'd hope it doesn't come to that, but I'll have to be prepared in case it does._
> Casually flipping the 'closed' sign to 'open' he walked out slightly into the square to more closely observe the conversation. "I reckon tonight'll be a rowdy one...people do like to drink off their anxiety," he thought aloud, speaking to nobody in particular. Then he propped the door open and went behind the bar.





> _The bar was open. Good. The woman in white could use a distraction. She made her way through the crowd, ducking and weaving until she reached the entrance, then brushed herself down, straightened out her hair and strolled in as if she hadn't a care in the world.
> 
> "A pint of your finest, please," she said, perching herself on a barstool. "Been quite the day, hasn't it? What do you make of it all?" Everyone knew that bartenders and innkeepers were the best sources of gossip and information,  and she was in need of the latter._


Ah, there you are. the Flower, carried in by a helpful local and set down, pot and all, on the countertop, addressed the woman flashing an apologetic leaf at the bartender for disturbing the conversation before it could truly begin. The Flower wasn't, of course, truly sorry; the one in white, whether a zealot or someone pretending to be a zealot, more than deserved a bit of her privacy being denied. I have been meaning to thank you. the Flower went on with a bright, cordial flower-smile. All three of you, in fact; but your flamboyant companion is sadly unavailable, whereas the other one is as good as mute; that does not make for good conversations, does it, now? the plant muses, glancing at the barkeep again as if to make sure the intrusion does not bother the man. Let me tell you, that three-pronged surprise assault of yours, in blatant violation of diplomatic immunity, no less, was something to behold. Makes one feel alive, that kind of thing, you see. Especially in such interesting times. the Flower explained, swaying softly in some imperceptible current of the air. I do _not_ like interesting times. the little plant leaned forward in a manner almost conspiratory. Not at all.

- - - Updated - - -




> EDIT: I was told in private that we will in fact not know that when deciding night actions.


Unfortunate, I must say.

----------


## Persolus

> I
> If you can keep things that way, I'll have a question for you come D2.


Do you mean keep my life interesting, keep my vote on Ti, or something else?
[if that in itself is the question then fair]



> Wasn't me.


Good to know!

----------


## Metastachydium

> Do you mean keep my life interesting, keep my vote on Ti, or something else?
> [if that in itself is the question then fair]


Stay alive. I'm not sure you'd answer any of my questions _after_ you've died.

----------


## Persolus

> Stay alive. I'm not sure you'd answer any of my questions _after_ you've died.


See, this is the _real_ reason I started this game with "Hello everyone! I'm Persolus and think that you shouldn't kill me first round!"  Meta needs to ask me questions D2.

----------


## Snowblaze

> Ah, there you are. the Flower, carried in by a helpful local and set down, pot and all, on the countertop, addressed the woman flashing an apologetic leaf at the bartender for disturbing the conversation before it could truly begin. The Flower wasn't, of course, truly sorry; the one in white, whether a zealot or someone pretending to be a zealot, more than deserved a bit of her privacy being denied. I have been meaning to thank you. the Flower went on with a bright, cordial flower-smile. All three of you, in fact; but your flamboyant companion is sadly unavailable, whereas the other one is as good as mute; that does not make for good conversations, does it, now? the plant muses, glancing at the barkeep again as if to make sure the intrusion does not bother the man. Let me tell you, that three-pronged surprise assault of yours, in blatant violation of diplomatic immunity, no less, was something to behold. Makes one feel alive, that kind of thing, you see. Especially in such interesting times. the Flower explained, swaying softly in some imperceptible current of the air. I do _not_ like interesting times. the little plant leaned forward in a manner almost conspiratory. Not at all.


_The woman sighed. Sentient plants were supposed to be evil monsters or else wise and ancient trees. They were most certainly not supposed to accuse you of violating diplomatic immunity. But hadn't she been wanting a change? She should have known the fates would grant her wish in a way like this.

"I disagree," she said, choosing her words carefully. "On multiple counts. I hardly attacked you; I simply pointed out that, despite your chatter, you have contributed little to the hunt for the devil-worshippers plaguing our town, and thus you could well be one of them. You have had plenty of time to prove me wrong. But you are most welcome, and I will be happy to continue tomorrow."

She tossed back her hair and tapped her fingers on the wood of the bar. "And you haven't been on many adventures before, have you? Diplomatic immunity is just words. When it's life or death, good or evil?" Tap. Tap. "It will not protect you."

That was far too melodramatic, even for her. Gods, she needed that drink._

Good point about pre-existing ISOs, I will look for one tomorrow.

- - - Updated - - -

Also is it bad that I genuinely don't know whether my character is a zealot or pretending to be one?

----------


## Batcathat

> Also is it bad that I genuinely don't know whether my character is a zealot or pretending to be one?


Is it paranoid if I think that might be a kinda clever way to RP a currently uncorrupted tempted?  :Small Tongue:

----------


## JeenLeen

> Also is it bad that I genuinely don't know whether my character is a zealot or pretending to be one?





> Is it paranoid if I think that might be a kinda clever way to RP a currently uncorrupted tempted?


That's basically why I had a slight wolflean (or, well, anti-town possibly Tempted lean) on Snowblaze D1.  That opinion persists.

----------


## Allando

Hi everyone sorry I've been horribly busy lately and it could get busier in the coming days 🙁. I don't want to explain my 3 sc vote now especially since I was mistaken about part of it. I'm sorry my vote to save Caedorus arrived too late I was struggling to vote from the mobile client ( I ended up using the desktop site which took ages to use). Sorry bro!

- - - Updated - - -

Caedorus and I shared a chat BTW that was our boon the reason we were reluctant to claim was because it only shows in the death message of the second one Rogan said, I can still prove it by giving his role before he flips he was the Gossip Girl/Guy he traded information with players

----------


## Metastachydium

> _The woman sighed. Sentient plants were supposed to be evil monsters or else wise and ancient trees. They were most certainly not supposed to accuse you of violating diplomatic immunity. But hadn't she been wanting a change? She should have known the fates would grant her wish in a way like this.
> 
> "I disagree," she said, choosing her words carefully. "On multiple counts. I hardly attacked you; I simply pointed out that, despite your chatter, you have contributed little to the hunt for the devil-worshippers plaguing our town, and thus you could well be one of them. You have had plenty of time to prove me wrong. But you are most welcome, and I will be happy to continue tomorrow."
> 
> She tossed back her hair and tapped her fingers on the wood of the bar. "And you haven't been on many adventures before, have you? Diplomatic immunity is just words. When it's life or death, good or evil?" Tap. Tap. "It will not protect you."
> 
> That was far too melodramatic, even for her. Gods, she needed that drink._


A soft, rustling sound was heard. The Flower was _laughing_. That is not how I remember your arguments. the little plant remarked. And as for words Words are tools. Tools that one should not dismiss lightly. That Caedorus fellow could tell us much about that: what is a sentence passed, after all, if not words  with the proper authority behind them? The tip of a root rose from under the soil, pushing a small, but ornate coin on the counter. For your time. the Flower told the barkeep, before turning, once more, towards the woman as the helpful citizen, still standing by and motioned closer by the plant, lifted the pot to remove the Flower from the scene. See you tomorrow; perhaps we can have a more _lively_ chatter then.




> Good point about pre-existing ISOs, I will look for one tomorrow.


Cool.




> Also is it bad that I genuinely don't know whether my character is a zealot or pretending to be one?


Par for course, I'd say; you just love to stress how confused you are about games, don't you?

- - - Updated - - -




> Hi everyone sorry I've been horribly busy lately and it could get busier in the coming days 🙁. I don't want to explain my 3 sc vote now especially since I was mistaken about part of it. I'm sorry my vote to save Caedorus arrived too late I was struggling to vote from the mobile client ( I ended up using the desktop site which took ages to use). Sorry bro!
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Caedorus and I shared a chat BTW that was our boon the reason we were reluctant to claim was because it only shows in the death message of the second one Rogan said, I can still prove it by giving his role before he flips he was the Gossip Girl/Guy he traded information with players


Figures. Remind me to get back to all the you/Caedorus talk D1, and thank you for the intel.

----------


## Rogan

*Night 1 has ended!*

Please wait for narration and results.

*Do not post here until the day starts!*

- - - Updated - - -

The confusion of the previous day still lingered on the town during the town. Most inhabitants found their own way to spend the time, some drinking at the bar  while listening in, hoping for some juicy gossip  while others tried to figure out what Caedorus really was up to. They even succeeded to find some evidence: They had some handwritten notes about a few inhabitants of the town. At first, they thought it would be blackmail material, but soon they noticed it wasnt that bad. Caedorus just loved to gossip, with no ill intend. After this realization, they rushed to stop the execution, desperately trying to find the Executioner in time. When they finally found them, the masked figure was calmly talking to the condemned. 
_"I didnt think this boy would be a killer, so Ive shown mercy. Dont expect me to do this again"_

Caedorus lived  but not everybody else was as lucky.

As the radiant dawn rises dispelling the fog of night, scraps of yellowed paper are discovered all over town. Every piece with an open eye drawn in disturbing red.
And in the main square crows gather around a man lying dead, pages scattered around him. Each filled with unblinking eyes. His own are gone, replaced with crumpled sheets. 

On the outskirts of the town, another body, wearing a black robe was found, lying dead on his back, victim to a single, well aimed arrow. JeenLeen never saw it coming.

Two other townsmen were found, clearly having killed each other. They were neighbors and never liked each other. Probably, they accused each other of being in league with the devil, but none of them actually was.

Lady Serpentine was another person who clearly saw her killer. Those who found her would never forget the horror in her broken eyes and the pool of blood around her. She was tied up and received multiple cut wounds, as if she had been tortured before being left to die.

Not everything was a bloody as these deaths. Some great pieces of fine, white paper were pinned to the doors of the city hall and the church. They contain a proclamation of the Mayor:



> Citizens of Burlow,
> These are troubled times. I foresee many more murders to come, and as such, yesterday was the first of many trials.
> But fear not ! I am convinced that together, we can prevail. Together, Burlow can make it through !
> Be safe, for I'll be watching over you.
> Your beloved mayor.


*Spoiler: Mech*
Show

*Spoiler: Caedorus*
Show

The Gossip Girl / Guy
You are the Gossip Girl / Guy, hero. You win when the town is save again.
Did you know the miller had an affair with the kitchen maid of the Mayor? Well, of course YOU did! And soon, everyone will know it too  under the seal of confidentiality.
Secret Exchange: Each night, you can target one living player and exchange some secrets with them. They will learn some random truth you know, you will learn something they know. They will know your identity, but wont notice you extracted a secret from them.
Public Scandal: Once per game, you may cause a public scandal instead. You pick one secret you have learned and it will become published during the next morning.
Random Truth: You start the game knowing the following truth: <Redacted>

Boon: <Redacted>

They are alive!

*Spoiler: JeenLeen*
Show

The Judge
You are the Judge, corrupted. You win when the corrupted gain a majority of the living players.
You are the law in this town and you know it. There is no need for some runaway heroes to tell you about keeping the town save.
And while you are doing this, you might be able to extract some money out of the inhabitants.
Imprisonment: Each night, you can target one living player and imprison them till the morning. They cant use powers, but also cant get targeted. You cant imprison yourself.

It's just a Suggestion! (Boon): Once per game, when you write the phrase "It's not that I'm a wolf; it's just a mechanical suggestion I want to hear feedback about." in bold, your vote count will be set to 0 and you will be immune to day powers.

They have died.

*Spoiler: Lady Serpentine*
Show

The Guard
You are the Guard, hero. You win when the town is save again.
As the Guard, its your duty to patrol the town, stopping crimes when you can and investigating them if you cant. Usually, its in easy job and you are well liked, but you never had to deal with a crime as cruel as this devil-business.
Detect Weapon: Each night, you can target one player and will learn if they have a power which might kill.
Inspect Victim: Each day, you can target one player who died at the previous night. You will learn the alignment of the killer.

A Role-player can be whatever they want (Boon): Once per game, you can assume the role of one player, dead or alive, as long as you can name it. You can use their powers for the rest of the game, along with the powers of your own role.

They have died

*
Day 2 has started.* It will end approximately Monday, 22:00 CET 
You may now post again

----------


## Caedorus

I'm back!
Ok I was saved by the executioner. Thanks!
I would roleclaim but Rogan already did that for me.
Oh, and, I am now ready to enact the plan I figured out with the executioner... Wait... Oh no, Bladescape, I forgot, Can you tell me again? Oh right, now I remember, I was going to vote *Bladescape* because they... Aren't the executioner! Real executioner asked to remain hidden to thwart the nightkill.

- - - Updated - - -

I started the game with some info (sorry Aleph!):
"When the Barman invites you to a drink or two, you do not refuse. Never!"
And this night I stole info from blade, but remember they also have some of my info:
"The Alchemist may harm or heal."

----------


## bladescape

Yes I claimed executioner to try and bait the night kill because it's obviously a town aligned role.

People lying in this game isn't necessarily evil, instead think about why they would lie before jumping to conclusions.

----------


## Caedorus

> Hi everyone sorry I've been horribly busy lately and it could get busier in the coming days 🙁. I don't want to explain my 3 sc vote now especially since I was mistaken about part of it. I'm sorry my vote to save Caedorus arrived too late I was struggling to vote from the mobile client ( I ended up using the desktop site which took ages to use). Sorry bro!
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Caedorus and I shared a chat BTW that was our boon the reason we were reluctant to claim was because it only shows in the death message of the second one Rogan said, I can still prove it by giving his role before he flips he was the Gossip Girl/Guy he traded information with players


yeah, I was hoping you wouldn't claim, but here we are, I don't want to dig you into a hole by not confirming. Yes, our boon is we're masons.

----------


## bladescape

I was not attempted to be killed last night. I can heal myself to avoid kills. There are restrictions about this but I don't want to elaborate.

----------


## Caedorus

> Yes I claimed executioner to try and bait the night kill because it's obviously a town aligned role.
> 
> People lying in this game isn't necessarily evil, instead think about why they would lie before jumping to conclusions.


I have thought about why you would lie. Extensively. So your real power is so bad that you think you'd better just sacrifice yourself for someone who might have been neutral? Pray tell, what power sucks that bad?

- - - Updated - - -

Oh ninja'd

----------


## Batcathat

Huh. That's a lot of information to digest. 

Instinctively, I feel like a towny blade trying to draw the kill is more likely than a wolfy blade claiming a role he presumably didn't know much about and was likely to be counter-claimed on. That said, blade is no stranger to risky plays as a wolf, so I'm far from sure. 

Too bad about Ti, especially since those powers and especially that boon could've come in handy.

----------


## Caedorus

Hmm. Why did you jump to be the executioner so soon? You basically claimed executioner immediately after rogan said there was one. In my opinion, and that of the real executioner last night, you were probs trying to bait the real executioner thinking I couldn't survive.

----------


## Cazero

> Yes I claimed executioner to try and bait the night kill because it's obviously a town aligned role.


Yes. It is an obvious and common intuition that people whose job revolves around killing other people are fundamentaly good at heart.

----------


## bladescape

> Hmm. Why did you jump to be the executioner so soon? You basically claimed executioner immediately after rogan said there was one. In my opinion, and that of the real executioner last night, you were probs trying to bait the real executioner thinking I couldn't survive.


I was hoping the Executioner would stay mum so I could have someone try to kill me and fail so we have a night where Corrupted sit on their ass and do nothing.

Also?

It seemed fun and the executioner description sounded like the RP character I'd been using so I thought it'd be hilarious.

----------


## Caedorus

Every eye turns as Caedorus walks into the bar. He sits down at the table and says:
"Well, now you all know. I'm sorry I talked about all of you behind your backs, but I just like to be informed and then I want to share that knowlege.
I'll have a beer. Make that a double, actually. After all, everyone knows *never* to refuse a drink here..."
"Weren't you going to be killed? We thought we could smell your blood! What did blade do?"
"Blade did nothing. But the real executioner spared my life. And now, I think our alchemist deserves some attention..."

----------


## AvatarVecna

> I'm back!
> Ok I was saved by the executioner. Thanks!
> I would roleclaim but Rogan already did that for me.
> Oh, and, I am now ready to enact the plan I figured out with the executioner... Wait... Oh no, Bladescape, I forgot, Can you tell me again? Oh right, now I remember, I was going to vote *Bladescape* because they... Aren't the executioner! Real executioner asked to remain hidden to thwart the nightkill.

----------


## Caedorus

Blade: you can harm. What does that mean?

----------


## bladescape

> Yes. It is an obvious and common intuition that people whose job revolves around killing other people are fundamentaly good at heart.


Sorry, let me clarify:

My experience tells me that in 90% of cases an Executioner Role is either Town Aligned or Neutral and therefore not an evil person.

Because giving wolves strong power over the day vote kill is actually unbalanced.

- - - Updated - - -




> Blade: you can harm. What does that mean?


My role can sometimes end up in people dead.

 :Small Smile:

----------


## Benoojian

> 


Adding onto the knowledge that there are more neutrals than tempted. Every tempted has a unique way to become corrupted.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Adding onto the knowledge that there are more neutrals than tempted. Every tempted has a unique way to become corrupted.

----------


## Caedorus

GAAh ok this is so buggered why why does it say I only have 6 posts and can't post links I had such a nice joke :(

----------


## Illven

Who has two thumbs and called the pairing. This girl  :Small Tongue: 


Caedorous did you have a code to your Mason buddy? I tried looking for one, but couldn't find it. (I did so for every player which is why I asked the mod for the first letter)

Also were you in contact with the executioner?

----------


## Caedorus

I clearly have more than 6 posts?

----------


## Illven

> GAAh ok this is so buggered why why does it say I only have 6 posts and can't post links I had such a nice joke :(


You need 10, and posts in this subforum dont count

----------


## Caedorus

> Who has two thumbs and called the pairing. This girl 
> 
> 
> Caedorous did you have a code to your Mason buddy? I tried looking for one, but couldn't find it. (I did so for every player which is why I asked the mod for the first letter)
> 
> Also were you in contact with the executioner?


No to the first (never got round to it), and yes to the second.

----------


## bladescape

> bladescape suggests we look into his suspicions against Meta.  So I'm looking at both of their posts.  I think I found them all, plus some where other folk comment on the comments.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...and I got nothing.
> Unless it's something with "Thrash"panda, but I reckon that's just a pun on "thrashing".   Is there another pun or meaning there I'm missing?
> 
> My guess is that bladescape is just poking to see if anyone squirms and he actually doesn't have legit reasons against Meta (except maybe a gut feel), but bladescape is hard to read.
> ...


This is a relevant post to think about tbh.

I don't know if undermining me on Meta is pairing as a wolf or just trying to discredit any info I could gain by poking people.

*Meta* while I continue to read.

----------


## Persolus

> GAAh ok this is so buggered why why does it say I only have 6 posts and can't post links I had such a nice joke :(


Posts done within the Message Board Games section don't count towards post counts for the rest of the site, I had this problem for the first few games.

Also _wow_. This is a lot of info.

----------


## bladescape

Can I confirm Cae:
Were you explicitly told that Allando was town or did you just get a chat with him due to boon?

----------


## Illven

> Can I confirm Cae:
> Were you explicitly told that Allando was town or did you just get a chat with him due to boon?


Ha. I remember when you thought the same about me and batcat  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Rogan

> GAAh ok this is so buggered why why does it say I only have 6 posts and can't post links I had such a nice joke :(


*Spoiler: OOC*
Show

Unfortunately, posts made in this part of the forum don't count for the link limit.


As a service of your friend, the narrator:



>

----------


## bladescape

> Ha. I remember when you thought the same about me and batcat


I need to be sure okay? =P

Reread Jeen's D1.

He spends a LOT of time peddling the "Cae is wolf! Allando wolfy too but ONLY if Cae is wolf. If Cae is town then Allando gets towny points."

It reads like a partner trying to leverage the masons thing.

----------


## Batcathat

One thought after Jeen's flip (and I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on it), does it make Persolus look less wolfy (since Jeen "agreed" that Persolus' post looked suspicious) or more wolfy (since Jeen was very easily "persuaded" by Persolus' explanation)?

----------


## Metastachydium

> *Deal with the Devil*
> [CENTER][FONT=Trebuchet MS]
> [I]Welcome to the town of Burlow, a nice and mostly peaceful community full of ordinary people. The current population consists of *88 people*.
> But the peace was disturbed when a traveling paladin went missing, his broken body was found soon after. The investigation of the town's authorities soon would reveal the cruel truth: The Paladin was used as a sacrifice to the devil. No single person in this town could have done this deed, but a small group might have the strength to do so.
> To restore order, 21 notable inhabitants decided to further investigate this crime and to execute those responsible.





> [B]
> As the radiant dawn rises dispelling the fog of night, scraps of yellowed paper are discovered all over town. Every piece with an open eye drawn in disturbing red.
> And in the main square crows gather around a man lying dead, pages scattered around him. Each filled with unblinking eyes. His own are gone, replaced with crumpled sheets. 
> 
> On the outskirts of the town, another body, wearing a black robe was found, lying dead on his back, victim to a single, well aimed arrow. JeenLeen never saw it coming.
> 
> Two other townsmen were found, clearly having killed each other. They were neighbors and never liked each other. Probably, they accused each other of being in league with the devil, but none of them actually was.
> 
> Lady Serpentine was another person who clearly saw her killer. Those who found her would never forget the horror in her broken eyes and the pool of blood around her. She was tied up and received multiple cut wounds, as if she had been tortured before being left to die.
> ...


1. Three locals who were *not* players died N1, in addition to two players, leaving a population of 83.
2. The Mayor's message gives me strong Utropia vibes.

----------


## bladescape

Also Persolus is likely town.

- - - Updated - - -

I will agree with Meta that the Mayor message is giving me heebijeebies.

----------


## Metastachydium

I need some sleep real bad right now. I'll be back. Persolus: try not to die for now; I still have my questions.

----------


## bladescape

> ...I'm kinda getting a pockety vibe off of JeenLeen? I mean, thus far, you've ended up with a null position on anyone you express suspicion of besides Caedorus.
> 
> Will do an ISO later, unless someone else wants to first.


This post is why Persolus is kinda probably town.

If you're wolf this isn't exactly how you sus a partner most of the time.

----------


## Caedorus

> Can I confirm Cae:
> Were you explicitly told that Allando was town or did you just get a chat with him due to boon?


Yes, I know for a fact he's town.

----------


## Batcathat

> 1. Three locals who were *not* players died N1, in addition to two players, leaving a population of 83.


I had an idea that those represented the dead player's "own" NPCs based on their dice rolls, but Jeen rolled a 6 and Ti a 4, so that doesn't seem to be it (or I'm at least missing some variable).

----------


## bladescape

> Yes, I know for a fact he's town.


Okay. I'll throw away that sus then.

----------


## Caedorus

Ima go to bed now long day tomorrow pls get on my wagon it has *blade*s!

----------


## Benoojian

> I had an idea that those represented the dead player's "own" NPCs based on their dice rolls, but Jeen rolled a 6 and Ti a 4, so that doesn't seem to be it (or I'm at least missing some variable).


Does the starting population match the sum of dice rolls?

----------


## Batcathat

> Does the starting population match the sum of dice rolls?


Someone said it did, at least. Though I haven't double-checked.

----------


## Metastachydium

> I had an idea that those represented the dead player's "own" NPCs based on their dice rolls, but Jeen rolled a 6 and Ti a 4, so that doesn't seem to be it (or I'm at least missing some variable).





> Does the starting population match the sum of dice rolls?





> Someone said it did, at least. Though I haven't double-checked.


Back for just this. Assuming I'm still lucid enough to use a calculator, yes, the dice rolls add up to 88.

----------


## bladescape

{BatCatHat/Meta} probably contains a wolf

Both are people that Jeen didn't explicitly defend but both times he was very "confused" by the wagon appearing on or generally undercut suspicion on.

- - - Updated - - -




> Ima go to bed now long day tomorrow pls get on my wagon it has *blade*s!


At least you're upholding Taffi's legacy of finding me wolfy all the time.  :Small Tongue: 

- - - Updated - - -

Anyone who thinks I'm wolf with Jeen should reread D1 and see how much effort Jeen puts into questioning me or undermining my reads without sussing me.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

Well, that certainly changes things.

Cae, I apologize for being so thoroughly pocketed by JeenLeen. I did not seriously think that you and Allando would be masons together. I can also 100% confirm that Allando is town, thanks to my own role.

Blade is likely also town too. I dont see a wolf claiming executioner to throw off the scent in a 21 person game where a counterclaim is likely - then again, if there is an executioner out there like Cae is saying and they didnt CC, that says a lot too. Hm.

Looking for wolves, I need to reassess what the counterwagons to Cae were and who jumped in when. For the time being, my vote is going to flat for being the last to jump on Cae and ensure a mislynch, but I plan on looking back over the next few days on Meta and BCH.

- - - Updated - - -

Whoops, Illven. Forgot to bold my vote.

----------


## Benoojian

My guess is that the Corrupted goal is related to being the majority in the town, not the majority in the players, and that the random civilians dead are equal to the number of corrupted, plus or minus whoever did the faction kill maybe. If no one hits their tempted condition and the civilian kills go down by one that's good evidence for this assumption.

Corrupted: 3 or 4, 1 dead
Tempted: at least 2 to have unique conditions
Neutrals: Tempted+1, so at least 3
Town: at least 4, one dead

That only accounts for 12 or 13, so there's a lot of wiggle room in Tempted, Neutral, and Town numbers specifically 8 or 9 flex between them

Edit:
However if there are 4 Corrupted and even one more Tempted, that means the hero faction did not start with a majority and will need to keep Tempted or Neutrals on town side in order to continue getting kills.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> One thought after Jeen's flip (and I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on it), does it make Persolus look less wolfy (since Jeen "agreed" that Persolus' post looked suspicious) or more wolfy (since Jeen was very easily "persuaded" by Persolus' explanation)?


Less wolfy, in my opinion. If Persolus hadn't been a serious front-runner, probably more wolfy, but as is I think they're pretty safe.

- - - Updated - - -

Blade isn't wolfy to me either. Snow is still giving off bad vibes. Don't really have reads otherwise. I'm fully off of Persolus at this point.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> Less wolfy, in my opinion. If Persolus hadn't been a serious front-runner, probably more wolfy, but as is I think they're pretty safe.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Blade isn't wolfy to me either. Snow is still giving off bad vibes. Don't really have reads otherwise. I'm fully off of Persolus at this point.


Largely with you on Blade and Persolus here, but why is Snow giving you bad vibes in particular?

----------


## Illven

> My guess is that the Corrupted goal is related to being the majority in the town, not the majority in the players, and that the random civilians dead are equal to the number of corrupted, plus or minus whoever did the faction kill maybe. If no one hits their tempted condition and the civilian kills go down by one that's good evidence for this assumption.
> 
> Corrupted: 3 or 4, 1 dead
> Tempted: at least 2 to have unique conditions
> Neutrals: Tempted+1, so at least 3
> Town: at least 4, one dead
> 
> That only accounts for 12 or 13, so there's a lot of wiggle room in Tempted, Neutral, and Town numbers specifically 8 or 9 flex between them


The corrupted goal was stated with Jeenleen's post. They need to gain majority over living players if I am reading ot correctly. It does specify players though.

I am starting to sus Benoo as this sounds like another failure to read flips, like Batcathat.

I am however worried about if the game goes on enough and there's no more civilians, do the corrupted get mutlikill?

----------


## Benoojian

> Less wolfy, in my opinion. If Persolus hadn't been a serious front-runner, probably more wolfy, but as is I think they're pretty safe.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Blade isn't wolfy to me either. Snow is still giving off bad vibes. Don't really have reads otherwise. I'm fully off of Persolus at this point.


I'm sorry, you're saying that because a confirmed wolf didn't push hard enough to lynch Persolus, they are essentially confirmed town? I don't follow that logic at all.

- - - Updated - - -




> The corrupted goal was stated with Jeenleen's post. They need to gain majority over living players if I am reading ot correctly. It does specify players though.
> 
> I am starting to sus Benoo as this sounds like another failure to read flips, like Batcathat.
> 
> I am however worried about if the game goes on enough and there's no more civilians, do the corrupted get mutlikill?


This is my first game, I missed one line in the 12 paragraphs in the morning.

Restated: the hidden Corrupted goal that Rogan hinted at and that won't be revealed until the end of game has something to do with the total population and killed civilians, and maybe even the Corrupted don't know the specifics.
From the recruitment: "The corrupted win by gaining a majority of living players or by some other condition, which wonÂt be revealed until the game ends. "

- - - Updated - - -




> Anyone who thinks I'm wolf with Jeen should reread D1 and see how much effort Jeen puts into questioning me or undermining my reads without sussing me.


Does this line scream "I'm a Neutral that wants to get lynched" to anyone else?

----------


## Aleph Null

OOC I have some stuff to do this weekend...might have trouble getting post frequency going so we'll see...

----------


## Illven

Also my mistake. I meant to type like bookwombat. I don't know how batcathat got typed up.

----------


## Benoojian

> Also my mistake. I meant to type like bookwombat. I don't know how batcathat got typed up.


Can you please elaborate?

----------


## Illven

> Can you please elaborate?


I mentioned last game I was in, a wolf failed to read the flip card. The wolf in question was bookwombat. I said it was batcathat by accident.

----------


## Benoojian

> I mentioned last game I was in, a wolf failed to read the flip card. The wolf in question was bookwombat. I said it was batcathat by accident.


But if I was Corrupted, my own role would include the explicit line that I missed in JeenLeen's role flip, so I don't see how that is generally wolfy? At worst if I was deliberately not reading it would imply a neutral that doesn't care about the town/wolf split.

----------


## Illven

> But if I was Corrupted, my own role would include the explicit line that I missed in JeenLeen's role flip, so I don't see how that is generally wolfy? At worst if I was deliberately not reading it would imply a neutral that doesn't care about the town/wolf split.


So what had happened, was book wombat was a wolf that when the alpha died, they asked how many wolves were remaining.

But one of the alpha's powers was to pick 3 wolves.

----------


## Xihirli

Hello all. 
Got some pretty big news, when do you think I should drop a bomb? Now, or towards the later half of day? 

Could be fun!

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Hello all. 
> Got some pretty big news, when do you think I should drop a bomb? Now, or towards the later half of day? 
> 
> Could be fun!

----------


## Illven

> Hello all. 
> Got some pretty big news, when do you think I should drop a bomb? Now, or towards the later half of day? 
> 
> Could be fun!


The sooner the better so we have more time to react to it.

- - - Updated - - -

Also also. My working theory on Vecna's boon, is they are a MEME VIGILANTE  :Small Tongue: 

Vecna memes. Vecna thinks Vigilante is a meme. My theory is that they have the powers of a Vigilante as long as they continue to meme.

----------


## flat_footed

> If you can keep things that way, I'll have a question for you come D2.


I'm eager to see your question finally materialize, Meta. You've been, shall we say, remarkably fixated on Snow this game so far.




> {BatCatHat/Meta} probably contains a wolf


Town vibes from BCH, I'm down for more pressure on *Meta*.

Wolves hitting Ti doesn't make much sense to me, she was low activity (and coming from me you know that means something  :Small Tongue: ). It may be a vortex situation or possibly the wolf kill was blocked and we have 2 kills from other sources. Blade false claiming Executioner doesn't feel wolfy to me.

*Spoiler: RP*
Show




> _Well, this is certainly interesting._ The burly yet laid-back individual said nothing, but narrowed his amber-colored eyes and put his hand to his chin pensively for a moment, then reached for a towel and dried off an ale mug as he watched the ensuing chaos in the town square. Brushing a lock of silvery hair away from his eyes, he glanced briefly at a locked drawer behind the bar. _Not yet. I'd hope it doesn't come to that, but I'll have to be prepared in case it does._
> Casually flipping the 'closed' sign to 'open' he walked out slightly into the square to more closely observe the conversation. "I reckon tonight'll be a rowdy one...people do like to drink off their anxiety," he thought aloud, speaking to nobody in particular. Then he propped the door open and went behind the bar.





> _The bar was open. Good. The woman in white could use a distraction. She made her way through the crowd, ducking and weaving until she reached the entrance, then brushed herself down, straightened out her hair and strolled in as if she hadn't a care in the world.
> 
> "A pint of your finest, please," she said, perching herself on a barstool. "Been quite the day, hasn't it? What do you make of it all?" Everyone knew that bartenders and innkeepers were the best sources of gossip and information,  and she was in need of the latter._





> Ah, there you are. the Flower, carried in by a helpful local and set down, pot and all, on the countertop, addressed the woman flashing an apologetic leaf at the bartender for disturbing the conversation before it could truly begin. The Flower wasn't, of course, truly sorry; the one in white, whether a zealot or someone pretending to be a zealot, more than deserved a bit of her privacy being denied. I have been meaning to thank you. the Flower went on with a bright, cordial flower-smile. All three of you, in fact; but your flamboyant companion is sadly unavailable, whereas the other one is as good as mute; that does not make for good conversations, does it, now? the plant muses, glancing at the barkeep again as if to make sure the intrusion does not bother the man. Let me tell you, that three-pronged surprise assault of yours, in blatant violation of diplomatic immunity, no less, was something to behold. Makes one feel alive, that kind of thing, you see. Especially in such interesting times. the Flower explained, swaying softly in some imperceptible current of the air. I do _not_ like interesting times. the little plant leaned forward in a manner almost conspiratory. Not at all.





> _The woman sighed. Sentient plants were supposed to be evil monsters or else wise and ancient trees. They were most certainly not supposed to accuse you of violating diplomatic immunity. But hadn't she been wanting a change? She should have known the fates would grant her wish in a way like this.
> 
> "I disagree," she said, choosing her words carefully. "On multiple counts. I hardly attacked you; I simply pointed out that, despite your chatter, you have contributed little to the hunt for the devil-worshippers plaguing our town, and thus you could well be one of them. You have had plenty of time to prove me wrong. But you are most welcome, and I will be happy to continue tomorrow."
> 
> She tossed back her hair and tapped her fingers on the wood of the bar. "And you haven't been on many adventures before, have you? Diplomatic immunity is just words. When it's life or death, good or evil?" Tap. Tap. "It will not protect you."
> 
> That was far too melodramatic, even for her. Gods, she needed that drink._
> 
> Good point about pre-existing ISOs, I will look for one tomorrow.
> ...





> A soft, rustling sound was heard. The Flower was _laughing_. That is not how I remember your arguments. the little plant remarked. And as for words Words are tools. Tools that one should not dismiss lightly. That Caedorus fellow could tell us much about that: what is a sentence passed, after all, if not words  with the proper authority behind them? The tip of a root rose from under the soil, pushing a small, but ornate coin on the counter. For your time. the Flower told the barkeep, before turning, once more, towards the woman as the helpful citizen, still standing by and motioned closer by the plant, lifted the pot to remove the Flower from the scene. See you tomorrow; perhaps we can have a more _lively_ chatter then.





> Every eye turns as Caedorus walks into the bar. He sits down at the table and says:
> "Well, now you all know. I'm sorry I talked about all of you behind your backs, but I just like to be informed and then I want to share that knowlege.
> I'll have a beer. Make that a double, actually. After all, everyone knows *never* to refuse a drink here..."
> "Weren't you going to be killed? We thought we could smell your blood! What did blade do?"
> "Blade did nothing. But the real executioner spared my life. And now, I think our alchemist deserves some attention..."




Cass measured his steps carefully as he followed the still living Caedorus into the bar. The only thing more surprising than his surviving the hangman was his casual attitude about the experience. Still somehow less crazy than Snowblaze, who had just been speaking animatedly with a potted plant at the bar (a Meta... something or other). Not exactly the type of flower to be carried around in a pot, but the sanest thing in the room by a long shot. Quickening his pace slightly, he sat himself at a table in the corner, leaning his chair back slightly with practiced ease. Even here, the reek of copper assaulted his senses. Cass sat quietly as he took a long drought from a waterskin at his waist and a brief scowl flickered across his face. _That damned stench._

----------


## Snowblaze

Morning. Guess I can't read Jeen after all. 

So Caedorus and Allando are masons, and therefore town. bladescape is towny for faking the executioner claim (yes, I know). Other reads will have to wait until I've ISOd Jeen. 

Agreed with flat that Ti doesn't make much sense as a wolf kill, and obviously nor does Jeen. Actually anyone killing Jeen doesn't make much sense since I don't think anyone talked about them as a suspect. So... redirection of some sort, or bastard mechanic?

(Incidentally can I claim towncred for them shading me for my RP? I'd like to.)

----------


## Persolus

> Morning. Guess I can't read Jeen after all. 
> 
> So Caedorus and Allando are masons, and therefore town. bladescape is towny for faking the executioner claim (yes, I know). Other reads will have to wait until I've ISOd Jeen. 
> 
> Agreed with flat that Ti doesn't make much sense as a wolf kill, and obviously nor does Jeen. Actually anyone killing Jeen doesn't make much sense since I don't think anyone talked about them as a suspect. So... redirection of some sort, or bastard mechanic?
> 
> (Incidentally can I claim towncred for them shading me for my RP? I'd like to.)


Agreed about wolf kill for both, but disagree about _anyone_ killing (i.e. a Vig/SK or similar)

Well, if a Vig killed Jeen, then either a) they made a really lucky random guess during the night or b) they got clued onto Jeen earlier somehow and let things play out; after all, a Vig doesn't need to convince anyone else to make the person they suspect die.

The fact that no one talked much about Jeen makes them a pretty decent target for a Serial Killer, because the death wouldn't give as much info on the flip.

No idea what other deliberate-choice kill mechanics might have affected Jeen, so no comment on that.


Also, yesterday I promised an ISO on Illven and I will get to that!

----------


## Snowblaze

*Spoiler: JeenLeen ISO, Part One*
Show





> Anyone have the time to check if the sum of our d6 rolls was 88?
> I can probably make time tomorrow if nobody else has already done the summation.
> 
> Although I dislike the meme-posting and thus feel inclined to vote for flat_footed or AV, I find a vote shift this early in the game to be a tad suspicious.
> 
> Caedorus, why did you vote flat_footed?
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> ...


So this is where I start saying "this post feels so wolfy, why didn't I suspect it at the time?" to every post. Hindsight bias is a powerful thing, okay?

Anyway, yup, suspecting our confirmed town mason. Noting that there are worlds where this is a chainsaw defence on flat_footed. 




> Stating some suspicion on Caedorus, but not voting him?
> If Caedorus flips wolf, this looks like an attempt at distancing while not wanting to vote your scumbuddy.
> As for number of wolves, I'd think a low number since there is a way for Tempted to become Corrupted.   But it's hard to know for sure since we don't know the conversion rules.


More suspecting of Caedorus. I... kind of think they may be telling the truth about the low number of wolves but also reading into that is inherently WIFOM.



> bladescape suggests we look into his suspicions against Meta.  So I'm looking at both of their posts.  I think I found them all, plus some where other folk comment on the comments.
> 
> ...and I got nothing.
> Unless it's something with "Thrash"panda, but I reckon that's just a pun on "thrashing".   Is there another pun or meaning there I'm missing?
> 
> My guess is that bladescape is just poking to see if anyone squirms and he actually doesn't have legit reasons against Meta (except maybe a gut feel), but bladescape is hard to read.
> Or he has some intel from his role or boon that makes him suspect or know something.  Hmm... "Role" starts with R.
> 
> --- ---
> ...


Okay, not quoting Meta's first post, which was the only one bladescape could have had initial suspicion of since it was the only one that existed prior to bladescape's Meta vote. 

It could just be an innocent mistake, or it could be partnery with Meta. Shutting down suspicion could also be partner-y.



> I see some answers to my "why Allando" question got posted while I was putting together my post.   3SC has a good point.  Snowblaze also makes a good point, and maybe lynching Allando first _would_ yield more info.  But I think (less sure now, but still think) I'd still rather test Caedorus and Allando by voting Caedorus first.
> 
> Now to truly focus on some real life stuff for a couple hours.


...yeah, I can definitely see why bladescape thinks this looks like an Allando partner. I will assume that Allando is confirmed town until I'm informed otherwise.




> I'll concur with Batcathat that _something_ about Persolus' post sounds off.  Like he has too much intel on the actual counts of each alignment.  And my first thought echoed Illven's post.
> But after some more thought, I don't think this is necessarily indictative of any alignment; a power or boon might include intel on the distribution of alignments.  If it's a boon, NAI; if it's a power... I want to think more about if that power makes sense for a townie, tempted, or wolf.  I also want to think if it makes more sense for a townie, tempted, or wolf to want to state that publicly.
> 
> (In contrast, bladescape's ruminations on alignment (about 1/4 wolf, 1/4 tempted, 1/2 town) seemed like reasonable and rational _speculation_, and not nearly as confident as Persolus' statement.
> 
> Most games have the narrator die at game-start.  If we want to test this via a lynch, D1 does seem the best time to do so because we have the least info to guide our votes.  But no lynch postpones us gathering intel.  In a bastardy game like this, I can see the logic of doing this, but not sure what I think of it.  I'd like to hear others' thoughts.
> 
> If there is a vigilante, though... I could them see targeting the Narrator...
> 
> ...


Mmm... I think this TMIs bladescape town. And yes, I am dodging "what does this mean for Persolus's alignment". Is it distancing and treating wolves/townies differently for doing a similar thing? Or is it just trying to get people to suspect town?




> That sounds quite believable.  And I don't really see this as a thing it makes sense to lie about, so I'm willing to believe Persolus.


...yeah, this is backing down way too easily, if I recall the context correctly then "hey, I'm trying out a new playstyle, that's why I'm different from my previous town games!" is _definitely_ a thing it makes sense to lie about.

My gut says this is towny for Persolus, that a wolf would leave a vague suspicion on their partner hanging for distancing purposes instead of backing down. But confidence low on that one.




> I guess that's fair.
> But, yeah, so far Caedorus is the only person who rubs me the wrong way that I can't justify away.   Your post did rub me the wrong way, but your explanation is believable enough that I'm willing to buy it without other evidence against you.
> Today's been busy, but I hope to read back over D1 to better understand why some have other reasons for voting you (Batcathat's one of many things statement) or Allando (bladescape noting it was irrespective of anything with Caedorus).  
> 
> I don't have strong reads on most others.  There's a couple I have thoughts on, but I think one is on pretty silly reasons and, for the other, I worry my commenting publicly might bias results or tip my hat in a way I'd rather not do yet.  For both, I think it's better I stay quiet.


Not particularly partner-y with anyone.




> Anyone know what Rakkoon post AV is "quoting" and responding to, or is Rakkoon really post a meme and I missed it?


NAI.




> I took the time to mostly reread the thread.  I got a bit tired the last page or two, so my reading comprehension started to fail about when heat started on Illven, but here's my thoughts as we near the last day of D1.
> _Possible relationships_
> If Caedorus flips wolf, suspect Allando.  Maybe also suspect Persolus, as Ceadorus' main defender.3SC and Caedorus are not both wolves.  3SC and Allando are probably not both wolves.bladescape and Allando are probably not both wolves.  His vote on Allando put Allando in a hot seat.  Similarly, rakkoon and Allando likely not both wolves.  (Maybe they'd bus an ally D1 for towncred, so "maybe not" instead of a hard "not both wolves")<redacting some other thoughts as movements last bit of D1 might invalidate, and I'm too tired after rereading to know if it's just gut feeling, actual logic, or misreading/counting something.>
> 
> _Other notes_
> I get why folk think Allando looks suspicious regardless of Caedorus' alignment, but I still think Caedorus looks more suspicious.I'm intrigued by bladescape's suspicions.  I reckon there's something besides poking to see if folk squirm.I don't care for post 81 by Cazero.  I can understand players being quiet D1, but his post with little content amidst a lot of discussion feels like trying to participate but not really participating.Rereading it all, Persolus seems iffier to me than before.  Even though I buy his explanation for the Too Much Information about alignment distribution--even if he's wolf or Tempted, his rationale makes sense and it's an odd/pointless thing to lie about--something rings hollow in this posts overall.  And he plans to build an ISO against me, but then ISOs Illven instead?   Nothing solid against him, but some gut feelings.I kinda get but kinda don't get the heat on Illven.  Made a mistake, or didn't correct someone else's mistake?  The latter could be a townie not wanting to seem overly defensive and thus draw heat, or just she didn't initially notice it or care that much.  But, again, by the time I reread up to the Illven-heat part, it was late and I was pretty tired.  Seems the strongest (or at least most vocal) against her are Persolus and Snowblaze, with maybe 3SC with his mistake about Illven and asking why she didn't correct him.  I don't think I'll get a good handle on that until we know more from info-gaining powers or alignment reveals.  If someone wants to spell it out in a well-made paragraph, much appreciated.I'd like to hear comments on if lynching/vig-killing the Narrator would be pro-town, pro-Tempted, and/or pro-Corrupted.  Question was raised, but no real discussion.
> 
> I had two wolfleans I didn't want to share earlier, one from it being silly, the other from wanting others to talk first.  I don't see much point in mentioning the second yet, so I'll just tell the first.
> 
> ...


...okay. Long post to dig into. Let's see. Unpairings with the masons don't really tell me very much. I'll just filter out the useful things:

- not liking a Cazero post; shade buried within a wallpost isn't unpairing.

- pivoting on Persolus again for not-particularly-valid reasons... yeah, this one confuses me. 

- defense of Ilven without committing to a townread is mildly partnered. 

And I kind of want to rule-of-three the "people I don't have a read on" list (Ilven/3SC/BCH).




> Three questions:
> 1) can you put into words why you find Meta suspicious?
> 2) will you write those words to share?
> 3) if yes to #1 and no to #2, why not?
> 
> I don't actually expect a clear answer from you, but with how much you've mentioned Meta through the Day I'd appreciate one.
> 
> I retract my statement that you were defending her.
> 
> ...


Mmm... soft defense of Meta without giving own stance on Meta is probably partner-y. Rakkoon thing goes either way depending on which way I squint. I think town!Rakkoon implies a wolf in the flat/Wombat/AV/Xihirli pile.




Conclusions: bladescape is probably town, despite paranoia. Mildly bad look for Meta, flat_footed and Ilven. I think this makes Persolus town but I can definitely see how it would be interpreted the other way.

Slightly concerned by how my analysis seems to back up my existing suspicions. Am I confbiased here? What am I missing?

I still want Meta dead, but he has a lot of votes already so I'll stick one on *flat_footed*.

- - - Updated - - -

Rogan said in recruitment that "neutral victory conditions won't interfere with everyone else's victory conditions" (paraphrasing); I interpreted that to mean the non-existence of a Serial Killer.

*@Rogan* is this interpretation correct?

----------


## Persolus

Wait, my brain is tired. I remember i promised ISOs on a few people, and didn't do all of them - was it JeenLeen, or Illven i didn't do?

----------


## Snowblaze

> Wait, my brain is tired. I remember i promised ISOs on a few people, and didn't do all of them - was it JeenLeen, or Illven i didn't do?


Jeen, I believe; they suspected you for saying you'd ISO them and then ISOing Ilven instead.

(Actually I don't think a wolf calls a partner out on that given it was suspicion to some extent that motivated the ISO. Welcome to the town pile.)

- - - Updated - - -

Let's see, then:

Masons: Allando, Caedorus 

Town: bladescape, Persolus

Confused mess but maybe slightly towny given Allando not-wolf: 3SecondCultist

Null pending dramatic revelation: Xihirli

Null on general principle: AvatarVecna 

Null because I can't read them (though actually my corpse was right on them last game so maybe I should try): Book Wombat 

Null because nothing they've said seems that AI: Batcathat, Cazero, Grand Arbiter, Let'sGetKraken 

Null because I haven't actually paid them enough attention: Aleph Null, Benoojian

Eh, maybe wolfy but I have other suspects and don't feel like pushing them: Rakkoon, Ilven

Wolfleans: flat_footed, Metastachydium 

Confused and paranoid: Snowblaze

That gives me some idea of where to go next, at least.

----------


## Rogan

> Rogan said in recruitment that "neutral victory conditions won't interfere with everyone else's victory conditions" (paraphrasing); I interpreted that to mean the non-existence of a Serial Killer.
> 
> *@Rogan* is this interpretation correct?


Since a victory condition of "be the last one standing" or similar requires everyone else to die (maybe with the exception of other Neutrals), they would prevent the Heroes, Tempted and Corrupted from winning.
Therefore, there's no Neutral with such an requirement.

----------


## Caedorus

We will be travelling so willonly be on phone. For reasons I can't explain, I now have a towcore of 5 people myseelf  included. Opinions onn what I should do with it?
Also, Illven, do you serve the purple elephhant? It would explain a lot and confirm two people as town.

----------


## Allando

*Bladescape.* Yes, I pocketed my brother, sue me.
_Allando walked into the bar and extensively hugged his brother. "What he said", he says._

----------


## Snowblaze

> We will be travelling so willonly be on phone. For reasons I can't explain, I now have a towcore of 5 people myseelf  included. Opinions onn what I should do with it?
> Also, Illven, do you serve the purple elephhant? It would explain a lot and confirm two people as town.


If it's based on mechanical information you don't want wolves knowing, keep your mouth shut until lategame or someone in the towncore is a consensus suspect.

_The woman in white reclaimed her seat from the previous day, humming to herself. Normally it helped her to clear her mind and focus her thoughts. It wasn't working today.

He'd lied. He wasn't the executioner, he was the alchemist. Mysterious cloaked figures weren't supposed to lie. They were supposed to give cryptic wisdom never understood until the crucial moment. This wasn't how it worked. None of this was supposed to happen. 

And the Flower. That damned Flower. What was he (it?) playing at?

She hadn't drunk enough last night. Or maybe she'd drunk too much. 
_

- - - Updated - - -

Allando is suspicious for pocketing his brother.

Jokes aside, we're not killing bladescape for fakeclaiming executioner. The last thing a wolf wants to do is fakeclaim a role that they know exists and is capable of counterclaiming them. 

Should reread D2 stuff properly instead of skimming to be up to date.

- - - Updated - - -




> Well, that certainly changes things.
> 
> Cae, I apologize for being so thoroughly pocketed by JeenLeen. I did not seriously think that you and Allando would be masons together. I can also 100% confirm that Allando is town, thanks to my own role.
> 
> Blade is likely also town too. I dont see a wolf claiming executioner to throw off the scent in a 21 person game where a counterclaim is likely - then again, if there is an executioner out there like Cae is saying and they didnt CC, that says a lot too. Hm.
> 
> Looking for wolves, I need to reassess what the counterwagons to Cae were and who jumped in when. For the time being, my vote is going to flat for being the last to jump on Cae and ensure a mislynch, but I plan on looking back over the next few days on Meta and BCH.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> ...


"My vote is going on flat" _votes for Ilven_

Explain?

----------


## Benoojian

New Player here: Explain "Pocketing"?

----------


## Caedorus

> "My vote is going on flat" _votes for Ilven_
> 
> Explain?


Ninja'd; this is veery sus behaviour.

- - - Updated - - -

Going along with someone else.

----------


## Persolus

> New Player here: Explain "Pocketing"?


Pocketing is short for "trying to put someone in your pocket" - i.e. a wolf openly supporting a town player's opinion, in the hopes that the townie will consider the wolf as town.

----------


## Benoojian

> Wait, my brain is tired. I remember i promised ISOs on a few people, and didn't do all of them - was it JeenLeen, or Illven i didn't do?


You didn't do Illven and I'd very much like to see that.
Edit: My Bad, you did do Illven, but at page four when they'd barely said anything.

- - - Updated - - -




> _Other notes_
> I get why folk think Allando looks suspicious regardless of Caedorus' alignment, but I still think Caedorus looks more suspicious.I'm intrigued by bladescape's suspicions.  I reckon there's something besides poking to see if folk squirm.I don't care for post 81 by Cazero.  I can understand players being quiet D1, but his post with little content amidst a lot of discussion feels like trying to participate but not really participating.Rereading it all, Persolus seems iffier to me than before.  Even though I buy his explanation for the Too Much Information about alignment distribution--even if he's wolf or Tempted, his rationale makes sense and it's an odd/pointless thing to lie about--something rings hollow in this posts overall.  And he plans to build an ISO against me, but then ISOs Illven instead?   Nothing solid against him, but some gut feelings.I kinda get but kinda don't get the heat on Illven.  Made a mistake, or didn't correct someone else's mistake?  The latter could be a townie not wanting to seem overly defensive and thus draw heat, or just she didn't initially notice it or care that much.  But, again, by the time I reread up to the Illven-heat part, it was late and I was pretty tired.  Seems the strongest (or at least most vocal) against her are Persolus and Snowblaze, with maybe 3SC with his mistake about Illven and asking why she didn't correct him.  I don't think I'll get a good handle on that until we know more from info-gaining powers or alignment reveals.  If someone wants to spell it out in a well-made paragraph, much appreciated.I'd like to hear comments on if lynching/vig-killing the Narrator would be pro-town, pro-Tempted, and/or pro-Corrupted.  Question was raised, but no real discussion.


JeenLeen, who we now know was a wolf, spent 3 times as long discussing Illven than anyone else in this list without making any actual statements or claims. And used Illven's name almost a dozen times. Basically just setting up to either defend them or say I knew all along if Illven happens to flip wolf.
It feels real partnery.

----------


## Persolus

> You didn't do Illven and I'd very much like to see that.
> Edit: My Bad, you did do Illven, but at page four when they'd barely said anything.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> 
> JeenLeen, who we now know was a wolf, spent 3 times as long discussing Illven than anyone else in this list without making any actual statements or claims. And used Illven's name almost a dozen times. Basically just setting up to either defend them or say I knew all along if Illven happens to flip wolf.
> It feels real partnery.


I _did_ do Illven, but with all of the new information, I will do another one.

Unfortunately there is a thing called sleep which must come first  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Xihirli

> The sooner the better so we have more time to react to it.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Also also. My working theory on Vecna's boon, is they are a MEME VIGILANTE 
> 
> Vecna memes. Vecna thinks Vigilante is a meme. My theory is that they have the powers of a Vigilante as long as they continue to meme.


Good notes, good notes. 
I happen to know that AV is _not_ the Vigilante, however. I suppose you could just say there's a certain... connection between us, I can just tell.

----------


## rakkoon

That is a lot of information in the thread and no information from my night powers  :Small Mad:  
Someone is shielded since "I couldn't find them".

I personally do not know any purple elephants but they sound fun. Would like to meet one.

Great avvie Meta!

So
- Xi and AV are connected
- Allando and Caedorus are connected
- JeenLeen was wolf
- did I miss anything else?

Why does everyone get a partner except for me? Is it the smell? It's the smell isnt' it?

That screws up my sus list...

It's between Bladescape and Illven for now?




> Jeen can be town. That last post was good.





> Townreading Jeen = Vote not the you thing.


What does that sentence mean?
Says I voted for BatCatHat. I know everyone here says it's NAI but I remember...




> Who has two thumbs and called the pairing. This girl





> I mentioned last game I was in, a wolf failed to read the flip card. The wolf in question was bookwombat. I said it was batcathat by accident.


What do people have against BCH?
Lots of wolfleans...

I would like an answer from blade about the "not the you thing" before I make a decision.

----------


## bladescape

> I would like an answer from blade about the "not the you thing" before I make a decision.


I made a comment about Jeen being town and then voted Cae because I thought Jeen was town.

Snow thought I'd voted Cae because of a statement I made about her in that post.

I was clarifying I was following Jeen instead of it being about Snow

----------


## 3SecondCultist

Double whoops. I meant to vote for flat_footed, but voted for Illven instead as I was in a rush and phoneposting. Still am, honestly, but wanted to come back to vote for the right person.

Wont be able to contribute too much to solving until tomorrow, unfortunately. Im out a lot this weekend (hiking trip today).

----------


## AvatarVecna

*Spoiler: reacting to flat being voted a second time*
Show




> Although I dislike the meme-posting and thus feel inclined to vote for flat_footed or AV, I find a vote shift this early in the game to be a tad suspicious.
> 
> Caedorus, why did you vote flat_footed?





> I get the move away from BCH, but why vote for flat here? You are effectively splitting the lead wagons even more.
> 
> What about flat is suspicious enough to you to put him tied in the lead?





*Spoiler: 3SC sheeping JL until...*
Show




> Stating some suspicion on Caedorus, but not voting him?
> If Caedorus flips wolf, this looks like an attempt at distancing while not wanting to vote your scumbuddy.
> 
> As for number of wolves, I'd think a low number since there is a way for Tempted to become Corrupted.   But it's hard to know for sure since we don't know the conversion rules.





> JeenLeen is not wrong here - voting for Persolus while pointing the finger on Caedorus could look like distancing or just generally throwing mud at the wall D1 and seeing what sticks. Also, as someone who was sussed _hard_ in my last game as Seer for making a silly D1 mistake, I can easily put myself in Caedorus' shoes.
> 
> Why the vote for Persolus at all, if you suspect Caedorus? Can you give reasoning for the former, or is it a simple D1 rand vote?





> I see some answers to my "why Allando" question got posted while I was putting together my post.   3SC has a good point.  Snowblaze also makes a good point, and maybe lynching Allando first _would_ yield more info.  But I think (less sure now, but still think) I'd still rather test Caedorus and Allando by voting Caedorus first.





> Okay, but seriously I fully support what JeenLeen is saying here. Suspecting and voting Allando without first voting Caedorus is basically pre-flipping, is it not? If Caedorus is not a wolf, then Allando should theoretically get some _town_ points.





> *JeenLeen:* The towniest read I have so far. If there was any doubt, their big post about 8 hours ago dispelled it for me. We are thinking too many of the same things and aligning too well for it to be a pocket for me, which is exactly what happened with bladescape in the town game where AV and I were Masons together.





*Spoiler: ...JL dies and now he was pocketing 3SC?*
Show




> Well, that certainly changes things.
> 
> Cae, I apologize for being so thoroughly pocketed by JeenLeen. I did not seriously think that you and Allando would be masons together. I can also 100% confirm that Allando is town, thanks to my own role.







*Spoiler: Flubbed distancing? I shouldn't pre-flip 3SC tho...*
Show




> Yeahhhh, I'm kinda wolfreading you for this. First you go after Allando and break off when the wagon won't gain steam, now you're throwing shade at a memer who may not be able to reply in anything other than images and someone who is being uncharacteristically quiet - which would be a dead giveaway as wolf, and therefore in my head is null to towny - to see if more wagons form. But I'm not biting.





> It's less I'm off Allando, and more I'm putting up more of my wolf leans.


*Spoiler: gets called on a slip, doesn't address it immediately*
Show




> Wait. 
> Wait.
> When exactly did Illven go on Allando?
> 
> @3SecondCultist when exactly did Illven go on Allando?





> I have never played with AV beforehand. The one previous game I was in, Vecna was the narrator.
> It is possible that Ti has RL issues. Until we know those RL issues though all I'm seeing is radio silence.





> That little voice in the back of my head that says "is this an actual slip?" has been aroused from its slumber. I hate it when that happens. 
> 
> But. Yes. Ilven acted as if they had been suspecting Allando previously when they hadn't actually mentioned such suspicion.
> 
> Ilven, please explain.





> I assumed it was me posting about the do I think Allando and Cad are linked. Either being masons, or wolves.
> 
> Along with my eariler slight wolf read of Cad.








> They did not, in fact, go after Allando! I made a mistake there... but very interesting that said mistake was not immediately pointed out as such.
> 
> Do I think, in light of Illven's answer, it was an actual slip? Hmmm. I need to re-read the ISO to make sure, but I'm actually leaning more towards 'no'. That doesn't make the rest of their wolf-leans any less shady, mind.





*Spoiler: Towny misunderstanding, or 3SC on the mind?*
Show




> ISO on Illven incoming!





> 





> What? Let the man implicate himself if he's dirty! Either way, that gives us stuff to work with.





> Is the man 3secondcultist, or me?
> 
> Cause if its me, she/her plz.





> Persolus, actually.

----------


## Xihirli

> So
> - Xi and AV are connected
> - Allando and Caedorus are connected
> - JeenLeen was wolf
> - did I miss anything else?
> 
> Why does everyone get a partner except for me? Is it the smell? It's the smell isnt' it?
> .


Stop bathing in garbage all the time!

----------


## Snowblaze

This game is mechanically chaotic, isn't it? 

I know nothing about purple elephants. I do have some information but I don't think it's productive to share it atp unless the other parties involved want to. 

Which I guess leaves me making reads the old-fashioned way. 

AV raises a good point about 3SC but... do wolves really just powerwolf that hard and that blatantly? I think 3SC and Jeen are two of the more powerwolfy players round here, but _still_ it doesn't quite... 

More thoughts appreciated there, please. 

Players to look through: Batcathat, Ilven, Aleph Null, Benoojian, Let'sGetKraken. Will try and get to those at some point this day phase, busy IRL for the next few RL days.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, and just realised I forgot to finish this:
*Spoiler: JeenLeen ISO*
Show





> Been busy real life afternoon, so not really able to keep up and I also don't really get the Batcathat wagon piling up.  All in all, I'm still thinking Caedorus seems the most iffy of all the iffy folk.
> 
> *@3SC and AV:* I think AV's is trying to say she didn't offense and you misunderstood her.  Maybe the Youtube clip link wasn't meant to describe you, but someone else?   I've been fairly at a loss to understand a lot of what she meant.
> 
> This post made me laugh.


Ah, this is where they soft-defended BCH. Yeah, that's partner-y, surface-level at least. 

Actually BCH could be a wolf. Maybe. I think. 



> Info from the narrator might need to be read carefully to avoid misinterpretation, but he won't lie.  So if someone flips and it's clearly stating that that player name is that role and alignment, I think we can trust it.  However, as he plans to "try to avoid giving deliberately misleading answers", I'd think death flips will be safe OR be muddled to such a degree we can be sure something is missing.  I don't think we'll get something fuzzy where it's simply misleading.
> 
> I wrote up some comments about the death flip being delayed, but I think they'd be best saved until D2 starts.
> 
> ---
> 
> In some cult games, someone who was converted from town to cult dies with a flip like "Name, died Cult but started Town".  I wonder if we'll be able to tell the difference between original Corrupted vs. former Tempted.  
> Also, if a Tempted becomes Corrupted in the same Phase they die, would they flip as Tempted or Corrupted?
> *@Rogan: willing to shed any light there?*


Mechanical talk, not really helpful for finding wolf partners.




> That's basically why I had a slight wolflean (or, well, anti-town possibly Tempted lean) on Snowblaze D1.  That opinion persists.


Obviously unpairing ;)



Not really much there. Slight wolflean on BCH now. Will see if that holds up once I get to the ISO.

----------


## flat_footed

> Double whoops. I meant to vote for *flat_footed*, but voted for Illven instead as I was in a rush and phoneposting. Still am, honestly, but wanted to come back to vote for the right person.
> 
> Wont be able to contribute too much to solving until tomorrow, unfortunately. Im out a lot this weekend (hiking trip today).


This doesn't make too much sense to me.. Ilven isn't even mentioned in this post, or any other of your recent posts. So let's look at when you did mention them:




> Now, first things first, to clarify my position regarding the Illven matter. I mentioned in an earlier post that I didn't think it was a slip, and I still genuinely don't. I was the one who made the mistake: for some reason I got it in my head that Illven had voted Allando, but looking back I saw no such thing. As an aside, this is why I wanted an ISO in the first place (yes, AV, I see you shaking your head in meme format). Still find it curious that she didn't correct me when I said that she was 'off' of Allando when I mentioned it, but I don't think it's inherently wolf vibes.
> 
> My vote stays on Caedorus, who I have outlined genuine reasons for suspecting, and who IMO is still the best shot D1 for a lynch.
> 
> As for some other reads, let's see:
> 
> *JeenLeen:* The towniest read I have so far. If there was any doubt, their big post about 8 hours ago dispelled it for me. We are thinking too many of the same things and aligning too well for it to be a pocket for me, which is exactly what happened with bladescape in the town game where AV and I were Masons together.
> 
> *Illven:* Squarely south of neutral for me. Taking the supposed 'slip' out of the equation for a moment, I'm still looking at her posts and seeing a high ratio of blanket accusations to actual reasoning. That shouldn't be wolfy in and of itself - and as AV so glaringly pointed out, a lack of content isn't enough to condemn someone - but I still don't like it.





> Yeahhhh, I'm kinda wolfreading you for this. First you go after Allando and break off when the wagon won't gain steam, now you're throwing shade at a memer who may not be able to reply in anything other than images and someone who is being uncharacteristically quiet - which would be a dead giveaway as wolf, and therefore in my head is null to towny - to see if more wagons form. But I'm not biting.
> 
> Snow, Persolus, flat, BCH: what do you all think of Illven thus far?





> Do I think, in light of Illven's answer, it was an actual slip? Hmmm. I need to re-read the ISO to make sure, but I'm actually leaning more towards 'no'. That doesn't make the rest of their wolf-leans any less shady, mind.


Three instances of wolf reading them, but always finding a way to not vote for them. If this was an honest mistake, which would be number two counting the Ilven/Allando vote mixup, why are they so prevalent in your mind and not in your posts? Plus, JeenLeen as your "towniest read" isn't doing you any favors.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

Alright, fine. Not pocketed, but I guess played? My gut was wrong, since what JeenLeen was saying aligned with my read on Caedorus. If I was a wolf, why on earth would I so obviously partner with JL on Day 1? That is basically asking to get lynched as soon as he flips.

I have made a few mistakes this game, mostly due to inattention. I do think Illven is still sus, btw, but I think flat is a better target at this point in time.

Caedorus: if you are indeed with a Mason chat with Allando, then both you and he should be able to townclear me so we can move on to make actual cases. We share in a candour [] for Justice and peace among these dark times in our village.

- - - Updated - - -

The top wolfread jumping on AVs case makes me feel even better that my suspicions are in the right place.  :Small Wink:

----------


## Benoojian

> I have made a few mistakes this game, mostly due to inattention. I do think Illven is still sus, btw, but I think flat is a better target at this point in time.


This is like your 12th time accusing Illven without voting for them: Either **** or get off the pot.

*Illven*

Also, you're cluttering up the forum of our town

----------


## Illven

> Caedorus: if you are indeed with a Mason chat with Allando, then both you and he should be able to townclear me so we can move on to make actual cases. We share in a candour [] for Justice and peace among these dark times in our village.


Caedorus, Allando, is this true?

----------


## bladescape

I think the wolf people should be looking for is in {BCH/Meta} and the fact that's being ignored so far is making me narrow eyes.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> I think the wolf people should be looking for is in {BCH/Meta} and the fact that's being ignored so far is making me narrow eyes.

----------


## bladescape

> 


It's true.

----------


## Snowblaze

Okay, I need a vote count. 

Metastachydium 2: bladescape, flat_footed
flat_footed 2: Snowblaze, 3SecondCultist 
bladescape 2: Caedorus, Allando
3SecondCultist 1: AvatarVecna
Ilven 1: Benoojian

Not voting: everyone else

Huh, I thought Meta had more votes than that. Eh, I like the three-way tie, staying where I am at least until Meta checks in. Can the people who haven't yet voted please do so?

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> If it's based on mechanical information you don't want wolves knowing, keep your mouth shut until lategame or someone in the towncore is a consensus suspect.
> 
> ..........
> 
> Jokes aside, we're not killing bladescape for fakeclaiming executioner. The last thing a wolf wants to do is fakeclaim a role that they know exists and is capable of counterclaiming them.


Yes, to reiterate - reveal that knowledge with enough time for people to move to a different wagon (minimum 8 hours) if you have knowledge on someone being confirmed town. Otherwise save it for late. 

And yeah this seems too obvious a blunder for wolf Blade to make. 




> Good notes, good notes. 
> I happen to know that AV is _not_ the Vigilante, however. I suppose you could just say there's a certain... connection between us, I can just tell.


EVIL MASONS?!?!?!?! 

No this was interesting. I was in favour of someone shooting AV but giving what they've been hinting at, they seem to be actually contributing outside of memes.... especially if whar Xihirli is implying is true. 




> Double whoops. I meant to vote for *flat_footed*, but voted for Illven instead as I was in a rush and phoneposting. Still am, honestly, but wanted to come back to vote for the right person.
> 
> Wont be able to contribute too much to solving until tomorrow, unfortunately. Im out a lot this weekend (hiking trip today).


I can't tell if this is you being a regularly suspicious bastard or a wolfy suspicious bastard. I think IRL might be colouring my reads of you. 




> lynched as soon as he flips.
> 
> I have made a few mistakes this game, mostly due to inattention. I do think Illven is still sus, btw, but I think flat is a better target at this point in time.
> 
> Caedorus: if you are indeed with a Mason chat with Allando, then both you and he should be able to townclear me so we can move on to make actual cases. We share in a candour [] for Justice and peace among these dark times in our village.


Don't feel bad. Only reason you're making mistakes is because you're actively playing and making reads. Doesn't mean you're not being shady but it's better to make mistakes than to not give yourself the opportunity.

That is a bold claim, I am curious. Getting serious tempted vibes from you.

----------


## Caedorus

> Caedorus, Allando, is this true?


Yes, we trust 3sc for reasons I'll leave  up to them to reveal.

----------


## Illven

> Since a victory condition of "be the last one standing" or similar requires everyone else to die (maybe with the exception of other Neutrals), they would prevent the Heroes, Tempted and Corrupted from winning.
> Therefore, there's no Neutral with such an requirement.


However, I'll note that it doesn't preclude a serial killer with a certain amount of kills win requirement, which is something I've told is possible.

Since both town and corrupted don't actually need to survive to win.

If their is a serial killer though, that would prevent a survivor. Since that could potentially stop the survivors win condition.




> We will be travelling so willonly be on phone. For reasons I can't explain, I now have a towcore of 5 people myseelf  included. Opinions onn what I should do with it?
> Also, Illven, do you serve the purple elephhant? It would explain a lot and confirm two people as town.


I have no idea what you're talking about and tried googling it for an answer.

Googling says it's a relation to either drinking or Alzheimer's. In both case's no.




> Yes, we trust 3sc for reasons I'll leave  up to them to reveal.


Hmm. My first thought was executioner, but if that's the case then you'd be vouching for them to Allando, and not vice versa.

----------


## Snowblaze

Okay, trusting the masons and adding 3SC to the town pile. 

Ilven, please don't speculate about town roles, knowing who the executioner is benefits wolves significantly more than town so avoid giving them anything that would help them figure it out.

(Actually *@Rogan* would wolves be able to post in wolfchat between being lynched and being either spared or killed?)

Kraken, I believe someone asked you to explain why you got "bad vibes" from me; I would also appreciate an explanation, preferably not involving the dubious sanity and morality of my RP character.

----------


## Cazero

I think I'm going to vote *3SecondCultist* as we need an explanation regarding purple elephants, out of all things.

----------


## Batcathat

> I think I'm going to vote *3SecondCultist* as we need an explanation regarding purple elephants, out of all things.


Wait, you're voting for someone cleared by the (barring some sort of bastardry) confirmed town masons?  :Small Confused: 

- - - Updated - - -

*@Meta:* It just occurred to me that you kept your original vote on me for the entire D1, despite not seeming to suspect me. How come?

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> I think I'm going to vote *3SecondCultist* as we need an explanation regarding purple elephants, out of all things.


Happy to explain this! Purple elephants preceded my private message to Allando in which I announced myself and gave them my Role (they got it at the start of night, so I had to wait until close to EoD to send it). It was a code to prove that it was in fact me sending the message, though I also identified myself explicitly. Double verification, etc.

I also included a phrase verbatim from my message to Allando in my recent post, just to make sure they knew it was me.

A lot of this could have been avoided if Allando had just come out and said he and Cae were masons together, since I have known Allando (and Ti, but shes dead) is town since game start.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Happy to explain this! Purple elephants preceded my private message to Allando in which I announced myself and gave them my Role (they got it at the start of night, so I had to wait until close to EoD to send it). It was a code to prove that it was in fact me sending the message, though I also identified myself explicitly. Double verification, etc.
> 
> I also included a phrase verbatim from my message to Allando in my recent post, just to make sure they knew it was me.
> 
> A lot of this could have been avoided if Allando had just come out and said he and Cae were masons together, since I have known Allando (and Ti, but shes dead) is town since game start.


This is interesting. I'm not sure it mechanically clears you so much as indicates you have a messaging role, but if the masons are willing to vouch for you I'm content with that. 

Snow, will get something together when I am at my computer but keep in mind that it was a gut read. I felt like you were being more hedgy than usual and it felt off. I will reread your comments and see how I feel.

----------


## Cazero

> Wait, you're voting for someone cleared by the (barring some sort of bastardry) confirmed town masons?


Sure, why not. Masons clear each other, not random people.

Anyway, got to the point quickly and concisely. Now to find someone else to vote against.
I'm feeling contrarian now. *Batcathat*.

----------


## Caedorus

> However, I'll note that it doesn't preclude a serial killer with a certain amount of kills win requirement, which is something I've told is possible.
> 
> Since both town and corrupted don't actually need to survive to win.
> 
> If their is a serial killer though, that would prevent a survivor. Since that could potentially stop the survivors win condition.
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea what you're talking about and tried googling it for an answer.
> ...


Now sussing: Illven

----------


## rakkoon

AV makes a good case against 3SecondCultist, flat_footed too ... and he gets masoncleared  :Small Frown: 




> Stop bathing in garbage all the time!


I literally have a boon because of this  :Small Smile: 

Pfff...looking at flat_footed, not that much said except the case against 3second.
Looking at Meta...oh, there literally was a claim about Masons and Gossip girl...Missed that.
Blade looks sus but everybody is loving him for the executioner claim.
Batcathat is kinda all over the place

Can I be anti-Blade? Nobody's wolfy except the person who got Masoncleared?

Will cast a vote after an IRL lama game...

----------


## Illven

> Ilven, please don't speculate about town roles, knowing who the executioner is benefits wolves significantly more than town so avoid giving them anything that would help them figure it out.


You're right, my apologies.

As a close to noob question, what does an executioner typically do?




> I think I'm going to vote *3SecondCultist* as we need an explanation regarding purple elephants, out of all things.


Okay, I get how you think they may not be cleared. But that's a far leap from "Hey, Masons are you SURE they cleared themselves." And immediately voting for them.

Also how do you get we need an explanation for purple elephant, directed at me, and assume 3secondcultist can help.

----------


## Cazero

> Also how do you get we need an explanation for purple elephant, directed at me, and assume 3secondcultist can help.


First occurence.

----------


## Illven

> First occurence.


Okay, question answered.

----------


## Book Wombat

> As a close to noob question, what does an executioner typically do?


Execute people.
 :Tongue: 

In Mafia though? It isn't a standard role as far as I know.

----------


## rakkoon

Book Wombat, any reads at all? I believe you are busy but I have known wolves that like to claim busy-ness to lay low. Which is a very boring way to play it in my opinion. 

*Illven* because I have to do something and our one confirmed wolf tried to soft clear them(" I don't understand the heat etc").


EDIT: dropping vote

----------


## Caedorus

> AV makes a good case against 3SecondCultist, flat_footed too ... and he gets masoncleared 
> 
> 
> I literally have a boon because of this 
> 
> Pfff...looking at flat_footed, not that much said except the case against 3second.
> Looking at Meta...oh, there literally was a claim about Masons and Gossip girl...Missed that.
> Blade looks sus but everybody is loving him for the executioner claim.
> Batcathat is kinda all over the place
> ...


Yes! Please join my blade wagon as he wasn't the real executioner!

----------


## rakkoon

Mason wants to go on someone I don't trust?
Go with that banana! (hmm doesn't sound the same in English...)
*Bladescape*

----------


## Caedorus

> Mason wants to go on someone I don't trust?
> Go with that banana! (hmm doesn't sound the same in English...)
> *Bladescape*


Ooh you're dutch?

----------


## Batcathat

While I still don't entirely trust blade, the claim feels more likely coming from him as town, so having him as lead wagon seems like a bad idea. At the very least, I want to hear some more from *Metastachydium*.

- - - Updated - - -




> This is interesting. I'm not sure it mechanically clears you so much as indicates you have a messaging role, but if the masons are willing to vouch for you I'm content with that.


Masons, can you clarify whether or not you got some sort of mechanical proof of Cultist's alignment or just the message?

----------


## Caedorus

Just a message but it indicated 3sc knew Orlando's role which btw we're still keeping a secret @3sc

- - - Updated - - -

It just  seemed like a veeery long shot bc they detailed their role so it would  be a very thorough fake.

- - - Updated - - -

You know, now I'm doubting myself...

----------


## Xihirli

Alright big announcement time

*SEER TEST.* *Benoojian*.

----------


## rakkoon

> Ooh you're dutch?


Somewhat more southern than that. Going there for a tournament in a few weeks though.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Alright big announcement time
> 
> *SEER TEST.* *Benoojian*.


Well, this is remarkably straightforward by Xihirli standards. *Benoojian*.

----------


## Batcathat

> Well, this is remarkably straightforward by Xihirli standards. *Benoojian*.


Yeah, I suppose it is (which is kinda paranoia inducing in itself). *Benoojian*.

(Though if any townie messed with Xi and or Benoojian last night in a way that might've screwed something up, it might be a good idea to speak up, so we don't end up killing two townies).

----------


## Illven

Seer test being Xi screed them as corrupted?

----------


## Caedorus

> Somewhat more southern than that. Going there for a tournament in a few weeks though.


Nice we're going to Belgium tomorrow that's why I'm only phoneposting  :)

- - - Updated - - -




> Seer test being Xi screed them as corrupted?


Or just a power activation

----------


## Rogan

> (Actually *@Rogan* would wolves be able to post in wolfchat between being lynched and being either spared or killed?)


Someone who was selected for the lynch would lose write access to any private chat they had before, with the exception of the private chat with me. (Honor based)

----------


## Book Wombat

> Book Wombat, any reads at all? I believe you are busy but I have known wolves that like to claim busy-ness to lay low. Which is a very boring way to play it in my opinion.


I'm not busy, but no I do not have any reads. 




> Someone who was selected for the lynch would lose write access to any private chat they had before, with the exception of the private chat with me. (Honor based)


You can change permissions for specific players if you want to, so that they can view but not write in a certain channel.

----------


## Allando

> Caedorus, Allando, is this true?


Not really Rogan explicitly said I couldn't verify the signature that's important info.



> Yes, we trust 3sc for reasons I'll leave  up to them to reveal.


Gaaah



> Okay, trusting the masons and adding 3SC to the town pile.





> Masons, can you clarify whether or not you got some sort of mechanical proof of Cultist's alignment or just the message?


Just the message with an added note by Rogan it could be fake.

- - - Updated - - -




> *Spoiler: jeenleen iso, part one*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> so this is where i start saying "this post feels so wolfy, why didn't i suspect it at the time?" to every post. Hindsight bias is a powerful thing, okay?
> 
> Anyway, yup, suspecting our confirmed town mason. Noting that there are worlds where this is a chainsaw defence on flat_footed. 
> 
> ...





> since a victory condition of "be the last one standing" or similar requires everyone else to die (maybe with the exception of other neutrals), they would prevent the heroes, tempted and corrupted from winning.
> Therefore, there's no neutral with such an requirement.


both these posts have as title re color is wolfradar has anyone else noticed

----------


## Batcathat

> Or just a power activation


That's a good point. Xi, can you clarify whether or not you're claiming to have scried Benoojian as a wolf? 




> Just the message with an added note by Rogan it could be fake.


Speaking of clarification, I said the last part, not Snow.

- - - Updated - - -




> both these posts have as title re color is wolfradar has anyone else noticed


I think it was AV who used that title originally (along "color is vote count" or something like that). Probably just intended as clarification given AV's limited communication.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> both these posts have as title re color is wolfradar has anyone else noticed

----------


## Allando

> Speaking of clarification, I said the last part, not Snow.


Whoops somehow the two quotes got merged, I probably accidentally backspaced too much sorry

----------


## Xihirli

> That's a good point. Xi, can you clarify whether or not you're claiming to have scried Benoojian as a wolf?


Eh, doesnt seem like my brand. 
I am the Seer, though. I can confirm by giving AVs role: Seers Apprentice. I know my student.

Aaaand fiiiiiiine. Benoojian lit up as Corrupted.
I suppose its possible I was vortexed or voided or Im the Fool, though. Thats why the test.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Does this line scream "I'm a Neutral that wants to get lynched" to anyone else?


No?




> I'm eager to see your question finally materialize, Meta. You've been, shall we say, remarkably fixated on Snow this game so far.


See below.




> So Caedorus and Allando are masons, and therefore town. bladescape is towny for faking the executioner claim (yes, I know). Other reads will have to wait until I've ISOd Jeen.


I don't think killing Blade is something that needs doing right now (a scry would be more helpful; we have half a roleclaim, after all) and "Blade is a dumb dog" doesn't appeal to me any more than any given "[Player] is a dumb dog" would. I'm not comfortable estimating the plausibility of either theory regarding his motives, all in all, but I must note that I find AV's not applying pressure on what I could see them view as a possible "scumslip" odd, especially when they zero in on Cultist, in the meantime, despite two confirmed heroes vouching for him.




> Agreed with flat that Ti doesn't make much sense as a wolf kill, and obviously nor does Jeen. Actually anyone killing Jeen doesn't make much sense since I don't think anyone talked about them as a suspect. So... redirection of some sort, or bastard mechanic?





> Wolves hitting Ti doesn't make much sense to me, she was low activity (and coming from me you know that means something ). It may be a vortex situation or possibly the wolf kill was blocked and we have 2 kills from other sources.





> Agreed about wolf kill for both, but disagree about _anyone_ killing (i.e. a Vig/SK or similar)


Rogan pretty much confirmed that there is *no* Serial Killer. Given that a factional kill for dogs, a vigilante and up to _two_ further kills per day seems insanely high, I believe that (for whatever reason) the two kills _are_ the doing of the dogs and a vigilante, or else any additional kill power is boon-related rather than role-related (cf. Ti's boon) and likely limited in scope.




> (Incidentally can I claim towncred for them shading me for my RP? I'd like to.)


It's neither here, nor there. It looks good on paper, but such ultimately harmless fluffsurfing's a safe way to distance D1.

Oh, and Snow: here's an ISO on me from p. 20 of Utropia. It was produced by AV (a fellow dog back then) so the analysis is perhaps better ignored, but the quotes listed are purportedly a comprehensive account of my early activity. You're welcome.




> Well, if a Vig killed Jeen, then either a) they made a really lucky random guess during the night


It happened before in Wolf Coin.




> or b) they got clued onto Jeen earlier somehow and let things play out; after all, a Vig doesn't need to convince anyone else to make the person they suspect die.


With powers plus boons plus private connections (two instances claimed so far), that's not impossible either.




> The fact that no one talked much about Jeen makes them a pretty decent target for a Serial Killer, because the death wouldn't give as much info on the flip.


Again, there is no Killer.




> Also


a question for you (an easy one for starters): I skimmed a few previous games; you talked more than I remembered, but it's no accident I didn't remember. I saw middling post counts, made up of stuff attracting little attention. Here, you're a top poster, fire up early ISOs (Illven; drawing raised eyebrows from AV) and multiple vote counts rife with mistakes; high visibility stuff, in other words. Is there a mechanical reason for such an (to me) abrupt shift in style?

♣
TO BE CONTINUED.

----------


## Benoojian

> You're right, my apologies.
> 
> As a close to noob question, what does an executioner typically do?


In Town of Salem(the video game versionof werewolf), the executioner is a neutral role that wants to lynch a specific character. That wouldn't delay a death flip though so probably not that.

But that does make me real suspicious of Blade's claims that they knew executioner was town and were protecting a townie.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Eh, doesnt seem like my brand. 
> I am the Seer, though. I can confirm by giving AVs role: Seers Apprentice. I know my student.
> 
> Aaaand fiiiiiiine. Benoojian lit up as Corrupted.
> I suppose its possible I was vortexed or voided or Im the Fool, though. Thats why the test.

----------


## Benoojian

> Eh, doesnt seem like my brand. 
> I am the Seer, though. I can confirm by giving AVs role: Seers Apprentice. I know my student.
> 
> Aaaand fiiiiiiine. Benoojian lit up as Corrupted.
> I suppose its possible I was vortexed or voided or Im the Fool, though. Thats why the test.


Could you post the info you got from your seer role verbatim please?

----------


## Metastachydium

> That is a lot of information in the thread and no information from my night powers  
> Someone is shielded since "I couldn't find them".


Hrm.




> Great avvie Meta!


Why,thank you!




> I think the wolf people should be looking for is in {BCH/Meta} and the fact that's being ignored so far is making me narrow eyes.


Maybe "for Reasons" is not as convincing as you'd think it is? Granted, I'll have to give your work on Jeen's stuff a closer look.




> *@Meta:* It just occurred to me that you kept your original vote on me for the entire D1, despite not seeming to suspect me. How come?


Two reasons:
1. Day 1. I was running on little information of less value.
2. Real Life mud in the virtual water that has nothing to do with you, this game or previous games.




> Eh, doesnt seem like my brand. 
> I am the Seer, though. I can confirm by giving AVs role: Seers Apprentice. I know my student.


We'll need to talk, Flat.




> Aaaand fiiiiiiine. Benoojian lit up as Corrupted.
> I suppose its possible I was vortexed or voided or Im the Fool, though. Thats why the test.


Hm. A three-for-one deal? I'm in. *Benoojian*

- - - Updated - - -




> [IMG]https://media.tenor.com/n7Q-cdm8ZLkAAAAM/suspicious-fry-futurama.gif[IMG]


Huh. Care to elaborate?




> Could you post the info you got from your seer role verbatim please?


Xi: I'd recommend against that at this point.

----------


## Persolus

> Again, there is no Killer.


I made that assumption before Rogan specified that Role couldn't exist, so fully get that I'm wrong on that count now.





> a question for you (an easy one for starters): I skimmed a few previous games; you talked more than I remembered, but it's no accident I didn't remember. I saw middling post counts, made up of stuff attracting little attention. Here, you're a top poster, fire up early ISOs (Illven; drawing raised eyebrows from AV) and multiple vote counts rife with mistakes; high visibility stuff, in other words. Is there a mechanical reason for such an (to me) abrupt shift in style?
> 
> ♣
> TO BE CONTINUED.


No mechanical reason, no!

This game coincides with the beginning of a semester, where I have absolutely no homework so far and _way_ more time on my hands, so I was deliberately trying to be more active. There were mentions in previous games about people enjoying a vote count every other page, so I figured I would try and do that - then I realised that vote counts were hard to do, especially if you do them at 1 in the morning, so I set up a spreadsheet to do it for me, which took a bit of tweaking to get right.

Note to anyone trying to set such a thing up: VBA is _ugly._

So no, no mechanical reasons, just trying to be more active in general.

----------


## Allando

Either AV doesn't agree or is salty about the role reveal. *grabs popcorn*.
I know it's a challenge in memes but I'd like clarification. It's an important difference !

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

We absolutely test Benooj right now, based on information as given.

Though it's important to note that it's quite likely that either some tempted or even corrupted (based on Jeen's flip) have town-like powers. As such, someone being a Mason or Seer or Vig is not *on its own* evidence of being town. If Benooj flips Corrupted, then Xihirli is pretty much 100% town (I know I have ruthlessly bussed partners in the past but this would be an extreme move).

----------


## Metastachydium

> No mechanical reason, no!
> 
> This game coincides with the beginning of a semester, where I have absolutely no homework so far and _way_ more time on my hands, so I was deliberately trying to be more active. There were mentions in previous games about people enjoying a vote count every other page, so I figured I would try and do that - then I realised that vote counts were hard to do, especially if you do them at 1 in the morning, so I set up a spreadsheet to do it for me, which took a bit of tweaking to get right.


Fair enough, thank you.




> Note to anyone trying to set such a thing up: VBA is _ugly._



Why are you in contact with the Serbian military intelligence services?

----------


## Cazero

> Why are you in contact with the Serbian military intelligence services?


Wow, you must have an interesting search history.

----------


## Persolus

> Why are you in contact with the Serbian military intelligence services?


*Excel* VBA. As in Macros.
Wait that was a joke wasn't it.

----------


## Allando

Gaah I have too many wolfreads is this a typical problem??

----------


## Cazero

I tend to have the opposite problem, but I'm a gullible fool.

----------


## rakkoon

> Nice we're going to Belgium tomorrow that's why I'm only phoneposting


Excellent choice


Also _Benoojian_

----------


## Benoojian

> We absolutely test Benooj right now, based on information as given.
> 
> Though it's important to note that it's quite likely that either some tempted or even corrupted (based on Jeen's flip) have town-like powers. As such, someone being a Mason or Seer or Vig is not *on its own* evidence of being town. If Benooj flips Corrupted, then Xihirli is pretty much 100% town (I know I have ruthlessly bussed partners in the past but this would be an extreme move).


The problem with that plan is that Xihirli has already laid the groundwork for being target switched, so when I flip town, you gain absolutely no information because they have already distanced themselves from the accusation. In fact you gain negative information, because you may surmise there is a target switcher when there is not and Xihirli is just lying.

So again, the message from Rogan, verbatim, identifying me as Corrupted please, so we know whether you were vortexed or just a wolf that extended too far.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Wow, you must have an interesting search history.


No! I swear! _Please don't hurt me!_




> *Excel* VBA. As in Macros.
> Wait that was a joke wasn't it.


I wish, Persolus. I wish.




> Gaah I have too many wolfreads is this a typical problem??


Eh, we kill this Benoojian guy, and you'll probably have two less or two more. (Is D2 officially dead now?)

----------


## Benoojian

> Hm. A three-for-one deal? I'm in. 
> 
> 
> Xi: I'd recommend against that at this point.


Three for one deal is going to need some explaining?

And why do you oppose sharing information? I am not asking for the role or boon information only the specific message identifying me.

----------


## Caedorus

Quick question: how many people do the wolves tempt? Because I believe a tempted died n1, which would make this highly unlikely.

- - - Updated - - -

I meant corrupted

----------


## Metastachydium

> Three for one deal is going to need some explaining?


If you are a dog, then we get you, confirm Xi and she can vouch for AV.




> And why do you oppose sharing information? I am not asking for the role or boon information only the specific message identifying me.


Ah. An honest misunderstanding, then. I'm not opposed to _that_.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Either AV doesn't agree or is salty about the role reveal. *grabs popcorn*.
> I know it's a challenge in memes but I'd like clarification. It's an important difference !

----------


## Allando

Okkkk.... So, Xihirli was lying???

----------


## flat_footed

> See below.


Sufficient for now, at the very least. We'll have to wait and see if Xi pulled a rabbit out of her hat, or if she is the one getting pulled. *Unvote Meta*, *Benoojian*.




> We'll need to talk, Flat.


Pull up a chair!  :Small Smile:

----------


## Allando

Lol the re 😃

----------


## Batcathat

> The problem with that plan is that Xihirli has already laid the groundwork for being target switched, so when I flip town, you gain absolutely no information because they have already distanced themselves from the accusation. In fact you gain negative information, because you may surmise there is a target switcher when there is not and Xihirli is just lying.


While possible, I doubt a wolf would fake a claim like that so early in the game. I could see it being done if the wolves only needed a little more time to win, but in this case they would basically have traded Xi's life for yours (because if you flip town and no one admits to having redirected her power or something, I'm fairly certain she'll die). 

That said, if Xi can back up her claim with some information that wouldn't benefit the wolves, that probably can't hurt.

----------


## Benoojian

There has been a lot of talk about all the wonderful info that is gained when you test me and I flip wolf.

Someone please tell me what assumptions you will make WHEN I flip town. Will that information be worth anything?

----------


## Allando

> Okkkk.... So, Xihirli was lying???


Or, wrong, in any case... this is getting very confusing, I need to go sleep.

----------


## Caedorus

Heeelp how do you turn the mobile site back on?

----------


## Batcathat

> 


While this is worrying, I can't think of any reason why a lying Xi would include the piece about you if it wasn't true, since that wasn't really necessary for the claim about Benoojian. Or are you really the Seer's Apprentice but you mistrust Xi for some other reason?

----------


## Benoojian

> Eh, we kill this Benoojian guy, and you'll probably have two less or two more. (Is D2 officially dead now?)


See this is what concerns me. Either when I'm town you assume Xihirli was tricked or you assume he was lying and dump AV along with him.

Why did Xihirli expose AV, it doesn't make sense as the Seer to expose the townie that gets your powers if you die. But a 2 for 1 town lynch, now that might worth it.

My final concern is the possibility that Xihirli's actual power is alignment redaction. So when I flip I come up without an alignment and again I died to not gain you any information.

----------


## Batcathat

> See this is what concerns me. Either when I'm town you assume Xihirli was tricked or you assume he was lying and dump AV along with him.
> 
> Why did Xihirli expose AV, it doesn't make sense as the Seer to expose the townie that gets your powers if you die. But a 2 for 1 town lynch, now that might worth it.


So are you suggesting that after we lynch you (and you flip town), we'd lynch Xi (and she flips wolf), we'd continue by lynching AV based on something Xi said?

----------


## Allando

> Heeelp how do you turn the mobile site back on?


Fixed it. Please bother me in person with stuff like this, OK?

----------


## Caedorus

> 


Ima steal this flattering quote for my signature. Once I have 10 posts.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> See this is what concerns me. Either when I'm town you assume Xihirli was tricked or you assume he was lying and dump AV along with him.
> 
> Why did Xihirli expose AV, it doesn't make sense as the Seer to expose the townie that gets your powers if you die. But a 2 for 1 town lynch, now that might worth it.
> 
> My final concern is the possibility that Xihirli's actual power is alignment redaction. So when I flip I come up without an alignment and again I died to not gain you any information.


And if we don't test you now, what exactly are our alternatives? The one seer claim we have - our mechanism for testing people - is the person you are casting suspicion on. Waiting doesn't provide us with any information and just delays the info we get from your flip, which is the only real way we have of corroborating Xihirli's claim. My vote stays where it is for now, you're the best candidate for a wagon.

The other options here is that Xihirli is being her normal self and is infact not being straightforward, and is trying to trap someone into revealing information, and made up the whole thing. But unless Xihirli comes forward and indicates it, the most likely scenario is that you're corrupted.

----------


## Benoojian

> While this is worrying, I can't think of any reason why a lying Xi would include the piece about you if it wasn't true, since that wasn't really necessary for the claim about Benoojian. Or are you really the Seer's Apprentice but you mistrust Xi for some other reason?


2 for 1 townie lynch or extra town cred when I flip town or [redacted]. Also seer doesn't usually know who the Seers Apprentice is, so Xihirli could know that for another reason and is throwing it on to look more town when all it does is put AV in danger.

Let me be clear,  Xihirli is WRONG. I want to know whether they are mistaken or lying. Killing me does not get you that information.

----------


## Caedorus

Testing my new signatute...

----------


## Snowblaze

_pokes back in_

Okay then. Seer claim, AV doesn't trust it (despite Xihirli claiming they'd back it up) but wants to kill Benoojian anyway. Benoojian is objecting on the grounds that it would generate little information if he's town.

Which is debatable but also, you know, being scried as a wolf dramatically increases the probability that you're in fact a wolf.

(I was going to suggest Benoojian should claim but then realised the whole executioner thing changes the dynamic of claiming-when-in-danger-of-being-lynched.)

I don't believe Jeen mentioned Benoojian in a significant way; I'll check through interactions in the opposite direction.

----------


## AvatarVecna



----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> _pokes back in_
> 
> Okay then. Seer claim, AV doesn't trust it (despite Xihirli claiming they'd back it up) but wants to kill Benoojian anyway. Benoojian is objecting on the grounds that it would generate little information if he's town.
> 
> Which is debatable but also, you know, being scried as a wolf dramatically increases the probability that you're in fact a wolf.
> 
> (I was going to suggest Benoojian should claim but then realised the whole executioner thing changes the dynamic of claiming-when-in-danger-of-being-lynched.)
> 
> I don't believe Jeen mentioned Benoojian in a significant way; I'll check through interactions in the opposite direction.


For the record snow this is the exact sort of thing that is gutpinging you as not town for me. There's basically nothing of substance in this post, and it feels like you've had more than a couple of those so far.

----------


## Benoojian

> So are you suggesting that after we lynch you (and you flip town), we'd lynch Xi (and she flips wolf), we'd continue by lynching AV based on something Xi said?


Since that is exactly what Meta implied, yes I am concerned about that

----------


## Snowblaze

> For the record snow this is the exact sort of thing that is gutpinging you as not town for me. There's basically nothing of substance in this post, and it feels like you've had more than a couple of those so far.


Duly noted. Though I have also contributed plenty of substance.

(Also sidenote: reading me as "not town" is invalid. Either I'm a wolf or I'm playing pretty much exactly like town!me does.)

Anyway, turns out there were precisely zero interactions between Benoojian and Jeen. So that's not particularly helpful. Did notice a couple of minor pings in brief skim through Benoojian's ISO, and can't really find anything to justify a townread on them, so I'm happy enough with their death pending any new mechanical revelations.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Duly noted. Though I have also contributed plenty of substance.
> 
> (Also sidenote: reading me as "not town" is invalid. Either I'm a wolf or I'm playing pretty much exactly like town!me does.)
> 
> Anyway, turns out there were precisely zero interactions between Benoojian and Jeen. So that's not particularly helpful. Did notice a couple of minor pings in brief skim through Benoojian's ISO, and can't really find anything to justify a townread on them, so I'm happy enough with their death pending any new mechanical revelations.


You have, don't mean to imply like you haven't been contributing. But there have been a few posts which are more.... surface-level solvy, I think? You have a reputation for being incredibly solvy that you need to maintain, and my gut is saying that posts like these might be trying to maintain that level in between more rigorous solvy stuff. Apologies if I'm wrong, of course. I have been pinned by purry cat for the past 3.5 hours but when I get to my computer I will try to see if this gut feeling can be substantiated.

----------


## Snowblaze

> You have, don't mean to imply like you haven't been contributing. But there have been a few posts which are more.... surface-level solvy, I think? You have a reputation for being incredibly solvy that you need to maintain, and my gut is saying that posts like these might be trying to maintain that level in between more rigorous solvy stuff. Apologies if I'm wrong, of course. I have been pinned by purry cat for the past 3.5 hours but when I get to my computer I will try to see if this gut feeling can be substantiated.


Eh... can kind of see where you're coming from there, I haven't been able to do as much deep-dive-analysis as I'd like so far. Getting there, though. 

This isn't exactly deep-dive either given how rapidly I skimmed, but I'm adding BCH to my suspect pile. They have nearly as many posts as me and yet I couldn't remember a single confident stance they'd taken. 

Which... to some extent is normal for BCH but there's usually _one_ wolfread of reasonable strength or else some paranoia, and here there's just... not that.

Need sleep, will get back to it tomorrow.

----------


## Benoojian

Xihirli needs to get their butt back in here and share some info. I am not dying for you to all go "whoopsie daisy. That didn't tell us anything."

The exact wording of Xihirli's message from Rogan, NOW. At least then when I die you get something.

BTW, I know that the purple elephant wears a crown.

----------


## AvatarVecna



----------


## flat_footed

If Day 1 is any example, we'll have to wait until Day 3 for the flip, meaning Night 2 may still be in a bit of turmoil depending on what Xi is or is not willing to say.

Come to think of it, a Town-aligned executioner who can hand wave the lynch seems a bit overpowered if it's more than once. I wonder if any of the Tempted's path to Corrupted involves doing something seemingly pro-Town.

----------


## Xihirli

> Xi: I'd recommend against that at this point.



I will defer to my flower-headed colleague and decline.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> The Judge
> You are the Judge, corrupted. You win when the corrupted gain a majority of the living players.
> You are the law in this town and you know it. There is no need for some runaway heroes to tell you about keeping the town save.
> And while you are doing this, you might be able to extract some money out of the inhabitants.
> Imprisonment: Each night, you can target one living player and imprison them till the morning. They cant use powers, but also cant get targeted. You cant imprison yourself.
> 
> It's just a Suggestion! (Boon): Once per game, when you write the phrase "It's not that I'm a wolf; it's just a mechanical suggestion I want to hear feedback about." in bold, your vote count will be set to 0 and you will be immune to day powers.

----------


## Benoojian

> I will defer to my flower-headed colleague and decline.


They updated their recommendation when I clarified what I wanted and suggested that you should share that piece.
Since you trust their recommendation you'll be sharing, yes?

----------


## 3SecondCultist

Interesting. Lots of developments while I was out.

*Benoojian*, obviously. What was the phrase they used? Stop cluttering up the forum?  :Small Big Grin: 

If what AV has just posted applies to BoJi is true, then it might not matter though. Using it would essentially confirm theyre Corrupted, but they might go ahead and try to save themselves at the last minute.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Interesting. Lots of developments while I was out.
> 
> *Benoojian*, obviously. What was the phrase they used? Stop cluttering up the forum? 
> 
> If what AV has just posted applies to BoJi is true, then it might not matter though. Using it would essentially confirm theyre Corrupted, but they might go ahead and try to save themselves at the last minute.


Maybe I'm missing something, but why would Jeen's Boon apply to Benoojian?

----------


## 3SecondCultist

Oh, that was JeenLeen? Lol.

Shows you how much attention Im paying to this game.

----------


## Caedorus

> 


Ohh yes who was it that already softclaimed seer by saying they got no result from their power? Their target probs got voided by serp.

----------


## Benoojian

> Interesting. Lots of developments while I was out.
> 
> *Benoojian*, obviously. What was the phrase they used? Stop cluttering up the forum? 
> 
> If what AV has just posted applies to BoJi is true, then it might not matter though. Using it would essentially confirm theyre Corrupted, but they might go ahead and try to save themselves at the last minute.


The phrase was "the forum of the town". Your phrase, which I got from the Masons when I saved Caedorus as the Executioner.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> If what AV has just posted applies to BoJi is true, then it might not matter though. Using it would essentially confirm theyre Corrupted, but they might go ahead and try to save themselves at the last minute.





> Ohh yes who was it that already softclaimed seer by saying they got no result from their power? Their target probs got voided by serp.

----------


## Xihirli

> 


Okay hold up hold up.
AV, if you are NOT the Seers Apprentice, or have any other strong reason to doubt my scry, go ahead and vote me.

If I got the wrong info on the Apprentice I think Im likely the Fool.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> 


Yes, thank you for the eloquent condescension. Its _so_ helpful now.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Okay hold up hold up.
> AV, if you are NOT the Seers Apprentice, or have any other strong reason to doubt my scry, go ahead and vote me.
> 
> If I got the wrong info on the Apprentice I think Im likely the Fool.

----------


## Allando

> 


... I'm not seeing it

----------


## Caedorus

Tbh except xi's claim, I'm not really seeing any evidence against Ooj. It's all "vague gut ping" "ohh, that was someone else" etc etc. However, Xi has a valid point. So, please explain why someone else already said they have some tracking or seer power (I should reread to see who), and AV did you actually in some way confirm what xi said to eliminate fool/decieved, if you can do both I'll sus Ooj.

----------


## Allando

> The phrase was "the forum of the town". Your phrase, which I got from the Masons when I saved Caedorus as the Executioner.


Wait? Are we talking about this now? OK IG...

----------


## Xihirli

> 


Well, youre making me want to not kill a new player based on my scry with all your "This is bad Xi is lying" stuff. Could I get a little more than "its complicated"?

----------


## 3SecondCultist

Ooof, Cae would you mind spoilering that image in your sig if youre going to sig that? Its large and slows down my site on my phone. Thanks.  :Small Smile: 

- - - Updated - - -

Waitwaitwait. Is Ooj claiming Executioner now? Is this a new thing?

Anyone else want to counterclaim?

----------


## Allando

> Ooof, Cae would you mind spoilering that image in your sig if youre going to sig that? Its large and slows down my site on my phone. Thanks.


Yes pls I'll help if you need it

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> The phrase was "the forum of the town". Your phrase, which I got from the Masons when I saved Caedorus as the Executioner.


 *Unvote Benoojian*. 

AV, please be more specific. You can clearly use the meme and post title template to communicate something for the less experienced players in the group. 

We now have an executioner claim. Caedorus, can you validate this?

----------


## Caedorus

> The phrase was "the forum of the town". Your phrase, which I got from the Masons when I saved Caedorus as the Executioner.


I guess I can confirm this now. Benoojan was the one who took my last words and saved me. This is why I'm so consistently townreading them.

----------


## Xihirli

Do we know for sure that Executioner is Town, while were at it?

----------


## Allando

> Waitwaitwait. Is Ooj claiming Executioner now? Is this a new thing?
> 
> Anyone else want to counterclaim?


I can, in fact, say that Caedorus at least 100% certainly talked to Ben when dying.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Wait? Are we talking about this now? OK IG...


Benoojian eels like they are now forced to claim, is the answer. Which is reasonable, since I personally would otherwise have voted based on what the Seer claimed.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Executioner
> 
> [...]
> 
> The Judge





> _"I didnt think this boy would be a killer, so Ive shown mercy. Dont expect me to do this again"_





> The Gossip Girl / Guy
> You are the Gossip Girl / Guy, hero. You win when the town is save again.
> Did you know the miller had an affair with the kitchen maid of the Mayor? Well, of course YOU did! And soon, everyone will know it too  under the seal of confidentiality.
> Secret Exchange: Each night, you can target one living player and exchange some secrets with them. They will learn some random truth you know, you will learn something they know. They will know your identity, but wont notice you extracted a secret from them.
> Public Scandal: Once per game, you may cause a public scandal instead. You pick one secret you have learned and it will become published during the next morning.
> Random Truth: You start the game knowing the following truth: <Redacted>
> 
> Boon: <Redacted>

----------


## Benoojian

> Do we know for sure that Executioner is Town, while were at it?


Answer my question and I'll answer yours.

The message from Rogan identifying me.

----------


## Xihirli

Alllllright. *Unvote: Benoojian* for now. I certainly dont want to upchuck death all over a first-time players game if we have reason to doubt the scry.

----------


## Allando

> Do we know for sure that Executioner is Town, while were at it?


This. This is why I'm sceptic. But Caedorus seems really really certain.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Do we know for sure that Executioner is Town, while were at it?


We do not. But they saved someone that is pretty close to confirmed town, so they're almost certainly not Corrupted.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

*Unvote Benoojian.*

He is right. Those are the exact words from the message that I sent to Allando. He did not edit it in. Take that as triple confirmation that he did in fact speak to Caedorus (and very likely saved him from dying). I dont see a Corrupted doing that, so at the very least he is NC if not outright Town.

That means either Xi got a bad scry or is lying.

----------


## Caedorus

> Ooof, Cae would you mind spoilering that image in your sig if youre going to sig that? Its large and slows down my site on my phone. Thanks.


It didn't do what I intended, but is this better?



> We do not. But they saved someone that is pretty close to confirmed town, so they're almost certainly not Corrupted.


They had nothing to gain by saving me, unless they are a neutral who wants Blade dead.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> *Unvote Benoojian.*
> 
> He is right. Those are the exact words from the message that I sent to Allando. He did not edit it in. Take that as triple confirmation that he did in fact speak to Caedorus (and very likely saved him from dying). I dont see a Corrupted doing that, so at the very least he is NC if not outright Town.
> 
> That means either Xi got a bad scry or is lying.





> Welcome and thanks for not rolling another 6!
> 
> To answer your question: There won't be a strict falsehood. There won't be a fool and no "replace the power result with a fake curse" . But make sure to read results carefuly and don't make assumptions which are not written down.

----------


## Batcathat

Well, this certainly got more complicated. I'm off to bed soon, so I guess I'll *Unvote: Benoojian* for now and hope someone has it figured out by morning.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Benoojian

Xihirli if you want us to believe you were tricked and not lying provide the message identifying me.

----------


## Xihirli

I'm sure all the information-gathering powers aimed at me tonight will help us figure out what happened. That or you all killing me, I suppose.

----------


## Batcathat

> 


Good catch. Though I wonder whether that covers something like a vortexer switching things around?

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

Xihirli, I think we're owed an explanation at this point.

----------


## Xihirli

> Xihirli if you want us to believe you were tricked and not lying provide the message identifying me.


No. I absolutely despise doing the "direct quote from the narrator" thing and I'll die first.




> Xihirli, I think we're owed an explanation at this point.


I don't think I have one beyond what I've said already.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

Ninja'd. Okay. *Xihirli*. Though I am open to other wagons. I'm feeling Neutral Jester, honestly.

----------


## bladescape

I have thrown my hat in the ring of "please don't directly quote the narrator." Before and I will do so again.

Benoojian was already on my very short list of possible Executioners, so this checks out.

Xi's move here just feels very overtly weird and I'm inclined to call it Neutral above anything else. So still happy to wagon it.

Will put my Meta/BCH reasons in a post because only Snow has reread and seen what I'm pointing out.

----------


## Caedorus

> 


Indeed, it seems Rogan said no fool. So leaning screw-with-results power or lying.



> No. I absolutely despise doing the "direct quote from the narrator" thing and I'll die first.


I agree. It denies wolves more than I'm willing to type out on phone.



> Ninja'd. Okay. *Xihirli*. Though I am open to other wagons. I'm feeling Neutral Jester, honestly.


Benoojan, are you ok if we skip wagons? I probs wouldn't change my vote anyway untill there was no more blade elimination possible (which would be a pity bc I really think I'm onto a wolf there), but I like to have options.

----------


## Benoojian

Rogan is doing a weird "I will not directly lie as Narrator" so the exact words really matter. I am going to need a better explanation than "I usually don't like that". An explanation that applies to this game.

----------


## AvatarVecna

*Spoiler: my Xi theory summarized, confidence 6/10*
Show

----------


## Caedorus

I just realised an exellent blade-is-wolf arguement: usually, when a confirmed townie pressures a non-wolf, wolves will uphold that wagon. This didn't happen.

- - - Updated - - -




> *Spoiler: my Xi theory summarized, confidence 6/10*
> Show


I genuinly believe AV is non-wolf now. I think she's either going for "void", "your power was tampered with" or, most likely, "I have noo idea, none at all"

- - - Updated - - -

I know this is an unfortunate moment, but I really need to go do rl stuff and then go to bed. Sorry!

----------


## Persolus

> I genuinly believe AV is non-wolf now. I think she's either going for "void", "your power was tampered with" or, most likely, "I have noo idea, none at all"


To me, that looks more like a picture of a vortex...? Confirmation, AV?

Why is it that all of the interesting stuff happens when I'm too busy to get involved  :Small Tongue:  - well, now it seems that Benoojian is at least _most_ likely not a wolf, let's see why they were so insistent on Illven at the beginning of the day.

This time the ISO is actually incoming, I promise!

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Good catch. Though I wonder whether that covers something like a vortexer switching things around?





> To me, that looks more like a picture of a vortex...? Confirmation, AV?

----------


## Benoojian

> I just realised an exellent blade-is-wolf arguement: usually, when a confirmed townie pressures a non-wolf, wolves will uphold that wagon. This didn't happen.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> 
> I genuinly believe AV is non-wolf now. I think she's either going for "void", "your power was tampered with" or, most likely, "I have noo idea, none at all"


That's a Vortex i think.

And I still don't think Blade is town, but I'm less certain than I was last night.

*Unvote Illven*

*Xihirli* I think they're jester rather than wolf but I'm okay giving them the win to find out since they refuse to give the evidence that might clear them if they're a seer who was vortexed.

----------


## bladescape

> I just realised an exellent blade-is-wolf arguement: usually, when a confirmed townie pressures a non-wolf, wolves will uphold that wagon. This didn't happen.


The wolves likely know me well. Or well enough.

Benoo/All/You all are unware of my history, so you sussing me for this is like, par for the course.

But for instance:
If Snowblaze was a wolf here, she would know that the moment she tried to say "Blade is wolf for lying about Executioner", I would instantly say "Alright, let's kill me, and you guys just instantly vote out Snow next."

Because we both know that I lie over my role as town and that just isn't believable for her.

The problem is wolves can't jump on me because then I can give you guys a bingo chart for after I'm dead of who all the wolves are. And if I die to give a bingo chart of wolves idc.

Also keeping me around means wolves know that the Town Cleared are staring at me and therefore aren't looking at anyone else.

- - - Updated - - -

Also I hate to use this kind of defense, but I have to point out that the only three people who have agreed that "Blade is wolf" are the three people who have barely/never played with me.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Xihirli

I'll go *Snowblaze* for ruining my tournament.

- - - Updated - - -




> Rogan is doing a weird "I will not directly lie as Narrator" so the exact words really matter. I am going to need a better explanation than "I usually don't like that". An explanation that applies to this game.


Its too gamey and meta for me. I understand that character choices are just flavor and were pretty much ONLY talking in the meta out here, but this feels a step further.
Because Xihirli, the Seer didnt scry exact words I have tarot cards or a crystal ball or dragon bones.

And I never see how they prove anything, I could fake the exact words, you dont get to check my PMs. If you dont believe me you dont believe me and thats only a problem for me _if I fear death._

----------


## Illven

I'm still on mobile so short post. I'm actually less inclined to think Xi is a jester. If I'm reading the meme correctly I think Xi knew Vecna's role.

If that's the case based on Rogan's game info, I'm more inclined to think Xi was vortexed.

----------


## Benoojian

> I'm still on mobile so short post. I'm actually less inclined to think Xi is a jester. If I'm reading the meme correctly I think Xi knew Vecna's role.
> 
> If that's the case based on Rogan's game info, I'm more inclined to think Xi was vortexed.


Why did Xi reveal AV's role and paint a target on them then?

----------


## Illven

> Why did Xi reveal AV's role and paint a target on them then?


So on one hand, if they believed it was true then revealing AV's role might make AV more likely to agree with them.

Veterans, how often does AV test seer claims fatally?

----------


## Grand Arbiter

I _think_ Im caught up.

*Spoiler: Roles/claims so far (someone please double-check me)*
Show

1. AvatarVecna - seer, per Xi
2. Metastachydium
3. Batcathat
4. flat_footed
5. Book Wombat
6. Lady Serpentine - guard, town, killed night   1
7. Persolus
8. Grand Arbiter - me, myself and I
9. bladescape - alchemist
10. Illven
11. JeenLeen - judge, corrupted, killed night 1
12. Aleph Null - barkeep, probably town
13. Let'sGetKraken
14. Snowblaze
15. Caedorus - basically a mason
16. Allando - basically a mason
17. Cazero
18. Xihirli - claiming seer, vortexed?
19. 3SecondCultist - cleared by masons
20. Benoojian - executioner, cleared by masons
21. Rakkoon


Really damn hard to figure out a vote since Im not able to read anyone as particularly wolf-y atm. Part of it is probably me being so rusty.

Meta, Persolus, Illven, Aleph Null, Cazero and Rakkoon are too new to me. Not enough personal experience to reference writing style/tone.

BatCatHat hasnt tried to claim my role so theyre clear for now.  :Small Tongue: 

flat_footed and Book Wombat are relatively quiet, like myself. Null reads

bladescape and kraken seem to be town, but theyre good enough players that it could be a façade. Ill put my inner cynic in its box for now.

Snowblaze is similarly good at seeming town regardless of alignment.

Hopefully Ill have a clearer mind, and a vote in the morning.

----------


## Benoojian

> I'll go *Snowblaze* for ruining my tournament.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> 
> Its too gamey and meta for me. I understand that character choices are just flavor and were pretty much ONLY talking in the meta out here, but this feels a step further.
> Because Xihirli, the Seer didnt scry exact words I have tarot cards or a crystal ball or dragon bones.
> 
> And I never see how they prove anything, I could fake the exact words, you dont get to check my PMs. If you dont believe me you dont believe me and thats only a problem for me _if I fear death._


Will you answer a different question, did you see my name?

----------


## Illven

> I _think_ Im caught up.
> 
> *Spoiler: Roles/claims so far (someone please double-check me)*
> Show
> 
> 1. AvatarVecna - seer/fool, per Xi
> 2. Metastachydium
> 3. Batcathat
> 4. flat_footed
> ...


Vecna and Xi can't be fools 

"However, as the narrator, I will not lie to you. If you receive an answer (including the results of power usages), it will be the truth." https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...26&postcount=8

----------


## Snowblaze

Chaos, delightful. 

Xihirli, you mean Battle Royale, right? You were the one who took it off the rails, in that case. 

Can confirm bladescape's defence is valid. Can we please not kill him?

And... what is Xihirli doing?

a) she's a Fool or otherwise gets unreliable results; I think this one can be ruled out because of what Ilven pointed out about "no false power results".

b) she's a neutral who wants Benoojian dead.

c) she's a neutral who wants herself dead. 

d) she's a wolf who thinks she can WIFOM her way out of this by passing it off as a non-wolf option

e) she's a wolf willing to sacrifice herself to cause chaos, out PRs and possibly get a mislynch.

f) she's Tempted deliberately triggering or attempting to trigger her corruption condition

g) she was vortexed or redirected from Benoojian to a Corrupted player.

h) she's doing all this for her own amusement and the chaos gods

Okay, fine, some of these are extremely tinfoil and unlikely. I think it's probably g, with an outside chance of b or e. If AV is in fact the Seer's Apprentice then Xihirli does know that which... okay, no, there are still worlds where wolves found out AV's role last night, doesn't conclusively rule out... wait, no again, if there's a Seer's Apprentice there's an actual Seer who could counterclaim... _what if Xihirli is a wolf role-scrier called Seer because this is a bastard game_

_removes tinfoil hat_

I don't currently want to kill Xihirli.

So... 

Mechanically confirmed town: Allando, Benoojian, Caedorus
Almost certainly actually the Seer's Apprentice and town for the way they've handled this Xihirli thing: AvatarVecna
Apparently has a strong believable claim that makes him town: 3SecondCultist
Town for non-mechanical reasons: bladescape, Persolus
For some crazy reason I don't want to kill them: Xihirli 
Definitely not a wolf: Snowblaze

Which leaves a POE of Aleph Null/Batcathat/Book Wombat/Cazero/flat_footed/Grand Arbiter/Ilven/Let'sGetKraken/Metastachydium/Rakkoon.

Yeah, three names in there I actively suspect, a couple I vaguely half-suspect but need to reread properly. That's fine.

General questions: who is the most likely to be town in that group? Who is the most likely to be a wolf in that group? 

(I'd ask who I'm most likely misclearing but the answers would all be "bladescape because he fakeclaimed executioner" or "Xihirli because she gave a false scry result". If anyone has an answer that isn't one of those then I'd still like to hear it.)

And also can I get thoughts on Kraken? The fact his only major contribution is suspicion of me is making me pretty biased there and I don't think I can get to a decent objective read on my own.

My own answers to the general questions: a) Book Wombat but also I've already filtered out all my townreads so I'm basically just plucking someone I don't actively suspect out of the list;

 b) probably Meta? Actually I should be voting him over flat now wagons are weird, shouldn't I?;

c) Xihirli for giving a false scry result ;)

*Metastachydium*.

- - - Updated - - -




> Oh, and Snow: here's an ISO on me from p. 20 of Utropia. It was produced by AV (a fellow dog back then) so the analysis is perhaps better ignored, but the quotes listed are purportedly a comprehensive account of my early activity. You're welcome.


Reposting this for the record, compare and contrast with Meta this game. Thanks Meta, and sorry for not getting around to it myself!

----------


## Illven

Alright, baby's first ISO, let's go
*Spoiler: On Meta*
Show





> There must be balance and order! It will be restored!
> 
> (Also, *Batcathat*. This is what you get for voting Snowblaze first when _I_ wanted to vote Snowblaze first.)


Meta's first statement sounds somewhat like a knight templar. Which would tell me tempted, but it's a really weak lean this is mostly for the sake of completion.

(Also explanting a day one instant vote is apparently sus?)




> Um, "reason" is a word starting with an R.


Just some bantor with bladescape over a day one instant vote. Nothing pops up to be here.




> I'm a FLOWER! Of _course_ you can call me that, good Sir T_h_rashpanda! That said, Metastachydia are endemic to bits of Central Asia outside China and I'm not particularly poisonous.


A science lesson. I'm not sure what thrashpanda is meant to mean as opposed to trashpanda




> Good. Good!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When did you last see Snow play? That's her whole shtick _especially when she's with the dogs_. In fact, if she catches one D1, that's all but a sure sign they've been working together. Were I AV, I'd know insert a post with a Joker screencap with "no, I kill the bus driver"!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is the first post that makes me think it's a method of deflection onto snow. "Hey if Snow's right, it means she's a wolf."

I'm going to assume it's common to her, since no veterans have shot her down, but it feels like it lets Meta shove Snow in front of a bus later on anyway.




> What? Let the man implicate himself if he's dirty! Either way, that gives us stuff to work with.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course. That's half my issue with you: as you certainly noticed, I'm wary of tall poppies. It's just I'm _still_ kind of salty about one of those, and salt is bad for plants, so I want to *kill* you.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh. Good to know.
> ...


Meta seems to be wary of the long term veterans, if I'm reading the tall poppies line correctly, not something I can truly blame them for. But it does seem a lil sus, since a veteran is more likely in my mind to also tell a townie




> Persolus, actually.
> 
> 
> 
> I, in the meantime, do not drink _Wine_.
> 
> 
> 
> Because the dogs are all but guaranteed to have a doghouse chat? That said, I still don't find the alleged slip itself particularly telling in any way. Its turbulent posterity gives me somewhat more pause, in fact.
> ...


I feel like I'm getting pocketed here.




> You're changing your vote an awful lot for someone who claims to know who's the button to press hard from the get-go, by the way.
> 
> 
> 
> Noy more than most. Not less, either.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.
> ...


I feel like if BCH and Meta are wolf buddies, this Not more not less allows them to hedge either way in the future.




> Red alert! We have two Blades now!
> 
> 
> 
> You're saying that like you've seen me be a dog a lot. You haven't.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> ...


I actually agree, I feel like bladescape would coordinate his voting better with this partner.




> Finally!
> 
> 
> 
> What's "commentary"?
> 
> 
> 
> Quick reminder that I had no reason to do those in UPick2 _yet_ and I did them a lot D1 in Wolf Coin.
> ...


Defense of previous games. Not much to say




> I wasn't concerned about _that_. I was concerned about your dropping unexplained votes on much everybody _other than_ the one person you claim to have suspected (who happened to be some FLOWER).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What's a purple elephant?
> 
> ...


This is the one thing so far that gives me pause. It's only unfortunately for town and tempted for the death reveal to not be revealed. The wolves already know if it's a wolf.





> A soft, rustling sound was heard. The Flower was _laughing_. That is not how I remember your arguments. the little plant remarked. And as for words Words are tools. Tools that one should not dismiss lightly. That Caedorus fellow could tell us much about that: what is a sentence passed, after all, if not words  with the proper authority behind them? The tip of a root rose from under the soil, pushing a small, but ornate coin on the counter. For your time. the Flower told the barkeep, before turning, once more, towards the woman as the helpful citizen, still standing by and motioned closer by the plant, lifted the pot to remove the Flower from the scene. See you tomorrow; perhaps we can have a more _lively_ chatter then.
> 
> 
> 
> Cool.
> 
> 
> 
> Par for course, I'd say; you just love to stress how confused you are about games, don't you?
> ...


Feels like some rivalry between Snow and Meta.





> 1. Three locals who were *not* players died N1, in addition to two players, leaving a population of 83.
> 2. The Mayor's message gives me strong Utropia vibes.


If our executioners idea about the wolves win condition is accurate, this suggests town vibes cause why bring it up and call attention to the fact the game is on a time clock.

If it's not accurate, it's probably corrupted vibes to put us on a false trail. 




> I need some sleep real bad right now. I'll be back. Persolus: try not to die for now; I still have my questions.


Heading to bed nothing to say here.




> Back for just this. Assuming I'm still lucid enough to use a calculator, yes, the dice rolls add up to 88.


What I am told is often wolfy is the helping with raw mechanics without explaining. Granted I also did this number addition.





> No?
> 
> 
> 
> See below.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think killing Blade is something that needs doing right now (a scry would be more helpful; we have half a roleclaim, after all) and "Blade is a dumb dog" doesn't appeal to me any more than any given "[Player] is a dumb dog" would. I'm not comfortable estimating the plausibility of either theory regarding his motives, all in all, but I must note that I find AV's not applying pressure on what I could see them view as a possible "scumslip" odd, especially when they zero in on Cultist, in the meantime, despite two confirmed heroes vouching for him.
> ...


I don't know why they needed to wait to ask Persolus this, and iirc Persolous already answered this earlier in the thread? (I was wrong and Persolous answered in response to this question)





> Hrm.
> 
> 
> 
> Why,thank you!
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe "for Reasons" is not as convincing as you'd think it is? Granted, I'll have to give your work on Jeen's stuff a closer look.
> ...


I'd like a more veteran player here. Why would Meta ask the seer to talk to either Xi, or flat-footed. If Meta was a vortexer that shunted the power from our executioner, if they were town you'd think they'd say so and who the target was now. If they are wolf though..... They might want Xi to tell them who she's targetting next to vortex that person, maybe? Seems like after the first fails we just at best wouldn't trust her scry.

That three for 1 deal is also looking sus, even though I don't think we'd target Vecna based on a fake or fooled seer's say so, we'd still kill Xi.





> Fair enough, thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why are you in contact with the Serbian military intelligence services?


Appartently I misremembered when this happened, my apologies. I'll go edit that in but keep my initial thoughts.

You did suggest you'd have additional questions however.




> No! I swear! _Please don't hurt me!_
> 
> 
> 
> I wish, Persolus. I wish.
> 
> 
> 
> Eh, we kill this Benoojian guy, and you'll probably have two less or two more. (Is D2 officially dead now?)


_VERY_ eager to end the day on a mislynch.





> If you are a dog, then we get you, confirm Xi and she can vouch for AV.
> 
> 
> 
> Ah. An honest misunderstanding, then. I'm not opposed to _that_.


Hmmm. I'm not sure what to make of this.



However.... I'm going to vote *Meta* for now.

- - - Updated - - -




> Which leaves a POE of Let'sGetKraken
> 
> Yeah, three names in there I actively suspect, a couple I vaguely half-suspect but need to reread properly. That's fine.
> 
> General questions: who is the most likely to be town in that group? Who is the most likely to be a wolf in that group?


My thought is Let'sGetKraken is likely town. For reasons I don't want to reveal yet.

----------


## Snowblaze

Welcome to the club, Ilven. Will go through that properly once I've done RL stuff, but for now don't forget to bold your vote, and also I recommend putting the ISO in spoilers.

And yes, there is rivalry between me and Meta. Basically our first game together I was a wolf and ruthlessly bussed my partner day one, with the result that town!Meta targeted with me with a perma-bane, ending in me briefly achieving mechanical immortality and his having to die before I could. 

That led to him having a grudge against me and desire to kill me wherever possible, fuelled by my being a wolf and winning, getting him mislynched in the process, in our next game together. So that in particular isn't wolfy.

----------


## Batcathat

I think for the moment I'm just going to ignore all the seer chaos and go back to *Metastachydium*.

----------


## rakkoon

> BTW, I know that the purple elephant wears a crown.


Do you ever have the feeling that you missed an episode of your favourite show?




> ... I'm not seeing it


I C what you did there  :Small Big Grin: 




> I _think_ Im caught up.


I did not know you were in the game, welcome!

Trying to make a list but I still have very little real suspects, which apparently is very wolfy. Just spent 50 minutes on this....screw it. Voting *Xihirli* because one of these options seems likely to me, and she "doesn't fear death" and wants to eat me in a sandwhich.




> b) she's a neutral who wants Benoojian dead.
> d) she's a wolf who thinks she can WIFOM her way out of this by passing it off as a non-wolf option
> e) she's a wolf willing to sacrifice herself to cause chaos, out PRs and possibly get a mislynch.
> f) she's Tempted deliberately triggering or attempting to trigger her corruption condition
> h) she's doing all this for her own amusement and the chaos gods

----------


## Caedorus

> I _think_ Im caught up.
> 
> *Spoiler: Roles/claims so far (someone please double-check me)*
> Show
> 
> 1. AvatarVecna - seer/fool, per Xi
> 2. Metastachydium
> 3. Batcathat
> 4. flat_footed
> ...


You forgot that as per the gossip I started with, Aleph is the barkeep and probs town, and according to my  n1 gossip blade is the alchemist. I hasten to add  that I didn't actually get alignment info, but "never refuse a drink from the barkeep" sounds like their power is always beneficial.



> Chaos, delightful. 
> 
> Xihirli, you mean Battle Royale, right? You were the one who took it off the rails, in that case. 
> 
> Can confirm bladescape's defence is valid. Can we please not kill him?
> 
> And... what is Xihirli doing?
> 
> a) she's a Fool or otherwise gets unreliable results; I think this one can be ruled out because of what Ilven pointed out about "no false power results".
> ...


See above; also, I mistrust flat.

----------


## Snowblaze

Maybe it's just my paranoia talking, but I interpreted "you never refuse" as... no, bad Snowblaze, don't say that, giving information to wolves, but not necessarily "this is always a good thing". (Also I have a new tinfoil theory now. Will mull it over and see if it's actually worth saying.)

And I'm treating the alchemist thing as NAI, fluffwise it feels like something that could work as any alignment.

I'd rather kill Meta, but I'll vote flat with you as an alternative to bladescape if you like? Actually I need a vote count before I commit to that, give me a second...

- - - Updated - - -

bladescape: Caedorus, Allando
Metastachydium: bladescape, Snowblaze, Ilven, Batcathat
3SecondCultist: AvatarVecna
Batcathat: Cazero
Benoojian:  Metastachydium, flat_footed
Xihirli: Let'sGetKraken, Benoojian, Rakkoon
Snowblaze: Xihirli

I believe. Yeah, Meta wagon is healthy enough I wouldn't mind switching to flat if the masons prefer that one. Also if you're not voting or voting someone who's cleared can you please vote someone who isn't cleared?

- - - Updated - - -

bladescape: Caedorus, Allando
Metastachydium: bladescape, Snowblaze, Ilven, Batcathat
3SecondCultist: AvatarVecna
Batcathat: Cazero
Benoojian:  Metastachydium, flat_footed
Xihirli: Let'sGetKraken, Benoojian, Rakkoon
Snowblaze: Xihirli

I believe. Yeah, Meta wagon is healthy enough I wouldn't mind switching to flat if the masons prefer that one. Also if you're not voting or voting someone who's cleared can you please vote someone who isn't cleared?

----------


## Caedorus

...This is not the first time you double-post, Snow, in other games this happened as well. Maybe look into it?

This might just be a noob thing, but why vote  flat if there is no way he'll go into  the lead?

----------


## Snowblaze

> ...This is not the first time you double-post, Snow, in other games this happened as well. Maybe look into it?
> 
> This might just be a noob thing, but why vote  flat if there is no way he'll go into  the lead?


Probably just me being impatient with the forum not responding instantly. 

And two votes for flat and one removed from current lead wagon Meta would put him one vote away from the lead and tied for it if Allando also joins.

----------


## Caedorus

*Flat_footed*

----------


## Allando

> Probably just me being impatient with the forum not responding instantly. 
> 
> And two votes for flat and one removed from current lead wagon Meta would put him one vote away from the lead and tied for it if Allando also joins.


*Flat_Footed*.

----------


## Snowblaze

All right, *flat_footed* it is, then.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

Tired, will write more later, but caught up on the thread. While I kinda see the support for the flat wagon, right now Im looking at the case on Meta. Illvens ISO showed me a potential portrait of a wolf - or at least one that I want to be wolf, which would be bad - so I have to look at these two again.

And before people say anything, yes there is a voice in the back of my head that says Illven and BCH are wolf buddies with flat, putting up a towny wagon on Meta as soon as the Xi chaos is starting to subside before votes can settle back on flat. Its a theory, albeit not a completely sound one. Might need to look back for interactions between these players.

 actually, hold on. Basic wagonomics time. D1, the leading wagons were Meta and Caedorus, with Allando not too far behind. Caedorus had 4 votes: me (an idiot), flat_footed, Illven, and JeenLeen. Meta had 3 votes: Snow, blade, and AV. BCH voted for Persolus, whose wolfcase I have never really bought.

In a world where Illven/flat are at least a wolfteam (more confident about that than BCH being involved, btw), if it was town/town near the end of that game then it wouldnt matter how many wolves on either wagon, right? Because if I look at the list, I am asking myself: how _likely is it that every single person on Caes wagon other than me is a wolf?_ And the answer seems to be not very. I cant quote posts on my phone effectively, so I dont have time to look at actual interactions, but hopefully we get that day extension so I can get it done before EoD and build a real case for it.

Conclusions to my thoughts: I am probably tunnelling Illven, but then voting for Meta now is NGL and potential evidence of partnering with flat_footed, who is a good wolf candidate right now. 

Can someone who isnt at risk of tunnelling check my math here? Does anything I have said make sense?

----------


## rakkoon

Hmm, if you look at Caedorus it was indeed Illven, JeenLeen,  3SecondCultist and Flat footed right at the end.
I agree that three wolves in one wagon is over the top.
Two is certainly feasible. 

It was between Meta end Caedorus that first day so why is this town/town? 
Has Meta been mason cleared?

----------


## Snowblaze

...no, that doesn't really make sense. You're arguing that Ilven and flat are unpaired (which is a good point, actually) and then using that to vote for flat because he... has partner equity with Ilven?

I'd say the more plausible world is "flat is a wolf who voted Caedorus to save his wolf partner Meta, Ilven is town". I haven't quite figured out if/how BCH fits into this.

flat/Meta?
BCH/Meta?
BCH/flat? 
All three? 

What does BCH and flat both voting for Meta today mean for these possibilities? 

Meta has not been cleared, afaik.

----------


## Allando

> Hmm, if you look at Caedorus it was indeed Illven, JeenLeen,  3SecondCultist and Flat footed right at the end.
> I agree that three wolves in one wagon is over the top.
> Two is certainly feasible. 
> 
> It was between Meta end Caedorus that first day so why is this town/town? 
> Has Meta been mason cleared?


We have no info on Meta no.

----------


## Xihirli

> Xihirli, you mean Battle Royale, right? You were the one who took it off the rails, in that case.


I don't remember it like that.

----------


## Snowblaze

> I don't remember it like that.


Look, you said "kill the Dark Spirit and everyone escapes". All I did was arrange for that to happen. Anyway, didn't I get punished enough by missing out on ultimate power by one coin toss and having it go to my nemesis instead?

(Not you, Meta. My other nemesis. What does it say about me that I have more than one nemesis?)

_Oh, gods, this was a mess. Even by her standards.

The Seer, who was supposed to be wise and all-knowing, had accused the executioner. The executioner who had spared his victim, a harmless gossip who definitely hadn't made agreements with devils, and therefore was almost certainly not evil himself. 

So was the Seer secretly evil, or had some dark power confused her and given her false visions? Normally she'd stake her life on it being the latter, but so many strange things had happened since this had all begun that she didn't trust her knowledge any more.

As if that wasn't bad enough, the brothers who were taking charge of this investigation had accused her cloaked companion. She'd managed to silence them by arguing that a pretence that could be so easily proven false was far too stupid for a devil-worshipper to try. 

That was true, of course, but it wasn't her only motivation. She wasn't going to let the executioner unravel his secrets. That puzzle was hers to solve. 

What this town needed was a hero. The problem with heroes, though, was that they were always the most unlikely-seeming person. Oh, gods,  she must be one of the least likely people here to be a hero. She'd have to start acting heroically so it was less likely that -

The fates hated her._

(Okay, yeah, my character is probably a madwoman. She's fun to write, though.)

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> My thought is Let'sGetKraken is likely town. For reasons I don't want to reveal yet.





> bladescape and kraken seem to be town, but theyre good enough players that it could be a façade. Ill put my inner cynic in its box for now.
> .


What comfortable pockets. Being mentioned in the same breath as Blade is quite flattering, I'll admit, but really this makes me more suspicious of you both, as the only thing that I've really done so far that's explicitly townish is how I handled the Benooj situation - and even then, I would have done that as a wolf, given that Xihirli looks to be wrong and I could have pushed a mislynch. 

But not suspicious enough to wagon either of you right now, at least. You can keep your secrets.

----------


## Grand Arbiter

> I did not know you were in the game, welcome!


Im on the player list  :Small Confused: 

Welcome is appreciated nonetheless.  :Small Smile: 




> What comfortable pockets. Being mentioned in the same breath as Blade is quite flattering, I'll admit, but really this makes me more suspicious of you both, as the only thing that I've really done so far that's explicitly townish is how I handled the Benooj situation - and even then, I would have done that as a wolf, given that Xihirli looks to be wrong and I could have pushed a mislynch. 
> 
> But not suspicious enough to wagon either of you right now, at least. You can keep your secrets.


I dont trust you per se, especially having spectated the clusterduck of a game with the cards from the dead.

Its more that I doubt I could pick up on either of you being a wolf, and being excessively cynical does not make for a fun time.

- - - Updated - - -

Im case my day gets crazy Im going to put a vote on the *flat_footed* wagon. Neutral/null reads are wolfiest ive got so far.

Amenable to change and will try to keep up with the thread between errands.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> ...no, that doesn't really make sense. You're arguing that Ilven and flat are unpaired (which is a good point, actually) and then using that to vote for flat because he... has partner equity with Ilven?
> 
> I'd say the more plausible world is "flat is a wolf who voted Caedorus to save his wolf partner Meta, Ilven is town". I haven't quite figured out if/how BCH fits into this.
> 
> flat/Meta?
> BCH/Meta?
> BCH/flat? 
> All three? 
> 
> ...


Huh? No, that is not what I was saying. I dont think my conclusions were clear enough, so here goes:

1) I think Illven and Meta are both not wolves (i.e. if Meta is a wolf I dont see a world where Illven is, and vice versa).

2) _If_ flat flips wolf, then I think Illven may also be a wolf. To my mind they are far from unpaired. 

I think flat is a more likely wolf - hence my vote - and I dont want to vote Illven because I suspect in my head I am pre-flipping and dont really have much of a case against her / am tunneling her. Going after flat makes way more sense right now from a gameplay state.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Pull up a chair!





> While possible, I doubt a wolf would fake a claim like that so early in the game. I could see it being done if the wolves only needed a little more time to win, but in this case they would basically have traded Xi's life for yours (because if you flip town and no one admits to having redirected her power or something, I'm fairly certain she'll die). 
> 
> That said, if Xi can back up her claim with some information that wouldn't benefit the wolves, that probably can't hurt.


Xi needs some manner of testing but See more below.




> See this is what concerns me. Either when I'm town you assume Xihirli was tricked or you assume he was lying and dump AV along with him.
> 
> Why did Xihirli expose AV, it doesn't make sense as the Seer to expose the townie that gets your powers if you die. But a 2 for 1 town lynch, now that might worth it.
> 
> My final concern is the possibility that Xihirli's actual power is alignment redaction. So when I flip I come up without an alignment and again I died to not gain you any information.





> Since that is exactly what Meta implied, yes I am concerned about that


We were talking about wolfleans. A let's kill everyone chain reaction while amusing is not something I find desirable. I'm trying to keep people alive here!




> The phrase was "the forum of the town". Your phrase, which I got from the Masons when I saved Caedorus as the Executioner.





> I guess I can confirm this now. Benoojan was the one who took my last words and saved me. This is why I'm so consistently townreading them.


Benoojian, be no lynch! My vote has been revoked.




> [IMG]https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/022/524/tumblr_o16n2kBlpX1ta3qyvo1_1280.jpg[IMG]


Yeah, no. (And Rogan's not from the US. His people don't use juries.)




> I'm sure all the information-gathering powers aimed at me tonight will help us figure out what happened. That or you all killing me, I suppose.


Bad vibes. We _need_ to know just what Xi's about, but an open invitation to mass investigate her with powers I'm suddenly developing this conspiracy theory that she has Watcher powers or an ally who does.




> Will put my Meta/BCH reasons in a post because only Snow has reread and seen what I'm pointing out.


Did that happen already?

----------


## Illven

> Huh? No, that is not what I was saying. I dont think my conclusions were clear enough, so here goes:
> 
> 1) I think Illven and Meta are both not wolves (i.e. if Meta is a wolf I dont see a world where Illven is, and vice versa).
> 
> 2) _If_ flat flips wolf, then I think Illven may also be a wolf. To my mind they are far from unpaired. 
> 
> I think flat is a more likely wolf - hence my vote - and I dont want to vote Illven because I suspect in my head I am pre-flipping and dont really have much of a case against her / am tunneling her. Going after flat makes way more sense right now from a gameplay state.


So I have a question.

If both me and flat are wolves, why would I ask them in public to tell me what they scrubbed from Caedrous?  :Small Confused:

----------


## Cazero

So, I felt like a votecount was needed.

*meta* 3 : bladescape, Illven, batcathat
*3SC* 1 : AV
*batcathat* 1 : cazero
*benoojian* 1 : flat
*xihirli* 3 : kraken, benoojian, rakkoon
*snowblaze* 1 : xihirli
*flat* 5 : caedorus, allando, snowblaze, 3SC, GA

----------


## flat_footed

Is it just me or is there no case against me that doesn't weigh heavily with being the deciding vote on Caedorus (which was Day 1 voting anyways)? Kind of shocked to wake up and find a string of votes against me, not gonna lie.

----------


## Metastachydium

> The problem is wolves can't jump on me because then I can give you guys a bingo chart for after I'm dead of who all the wolves are. And if I die to give a bingo chart of wolves idc.


If that would give us all the wolves, why don't we just kill you, again? (You're also hilariously wrong about me.)




> Why did Xi reveal AV's role and paint a target on them then?


Also worrisome. Joining you on *Xihirli*.




> Snowblaze is similarly good at seeming town regardless of alignment.


Right? RIGHT?




> Will you answer a different question, did you see my name?


Xi, if you still like my pretty Flower head and not my vote on you, please answer this.




> Vecna and Xi can't be fools 
> 
> "However, as the narrator, I will not lie to you. If you receive an answer (including the results of power usages), it will be the truth." https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...26&postcount=8


Thank you.




> (Not you, Meta. My other nemesis. What does it say about me that I have more than one nemesis?)


You must be fun at parties?




> So I have a question.
> 
> If both me and flat are wolves, why would I ask them in public to tell me what they scrubbed from Caedrous?


Why would you EVER ask a mod to tell you what they SCRUBBED?

----------


## flat_footed

> Why would you EVER ask a mod to tell you what they SCRUBBED?


You shouldn't, and also this discussion ends here.

Due to an admittedly unreliable seer: *Unvote Benoojian*

----------


## Illven

> Why would you EVER ask a mod to tell you what they SCRUBBED?


Self scrubbed.

----------


## Snowblaze

> Is it just me or is there no case against me that doesn't weigh heavily with being the deciding vote on Caedorus (which was Day 1 voting anyways)? Kind of shocked to wake up and find a string of votes against me, not gonna lie.


That is the main point against you, but just because it was Day One doesn't make it not wolfy. I did also mention in my Jeen ISO that their going after Caedorus specifically for their unexplained vote on you could be a chainsaw defence.

I'm jumping ship anyway: *Batcathat*. Let's see if we can make it Meta/flat/BCH wagons.

- - - Updated - - -

flat, who do you want to kill?

----------


## Metastachydium

> So, I felt like a votecount was needed.
> 
> *meta* 3 : bladescape, Illven, batcathat
> *3SC* 1 : AV
> *batcathat* 1 : cazero
> *benoojian* 1 : flat
> *xihirli* 3 : kraken, benoojian, rakkoon
> *snowblaze* 1 : xihirli
> *flat* 5 : caedorus, allando, snowblaze, 3SC, GA


I voted in the meantime. Xi's at 4.




> Is it just me or is there no case against me that doesn't weigh heavily with being the deciding vote on Caedorus (which was Day 1 voting anyways)? Kind of shocked to wake up and find a string of votes against me, not gonna lie.


(I'll take that chair.)

"This one will linger." set down at the table, the Flower looked at Cass inquisitively, only to grin a heartbeat after. Would you believe me if I told you I am reasonably well travelled? the plant asked the man. It is a key part of my, shall we say, vocation: to meet people in places away from whatever I can call home. I have been far enough in the south that I feared to take water until the sun sank behind the horizan, lest I boil and far enough in the north to see the days that never seem to end, suffering through white nights in chambers curtained off from all light. the Flower spoke dreamily, drawing lazy circles in the air with a leaf. One thing that I learned is this, sir: the vatic arts are quite real. They often say the Fates are blind, but it is just as widely held that they develop, let us say, other senses. The southerners say it is _touch_, albeit not the sort of touch mortals such as ourselves are familiar with. the little plant bobbed forward as if nodding. But enough of the preludes; our time is running thin, and I hope you have An understanding, if not neccessarily an insight I might not be able to access come tomorrow. What do you make of this comedy with our _Seer_?

----------


## flat_footed

> That is the main point against you, but just because it was Day One doesn't make it not wolfy. I did also mention in my Jeen ISO that their going after Caedorus specifically for their unexplained vote on you could be a chainsaw defence.
> 
> I'm jumping ship anyway: *Batcathat*. Let's see if we can make it Meta/flat/BCH wagons.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> flat, who do you want to kill?


I have a mechanical reason to trust BCH, which I'm willing to discuss if they are. Since the day is over in 29 hours instead of 5, I'll wait a bit on that instead of blowing their cover like AV has claimed Xi did to them.

Removing the Xi insanity, my vote was on Meta which I removed more or less for the seer claim. I'll have to go back and read, but if I had to place a vote now it would be on Meta still with a strong lean towards Xi, pending further read of their initial claim and the fallout. Even with just 1 of 4 factions actively anti-town, the neutrals can win with either side and the Tempted can make the switch if and when they satisfy their conversion requirements. Gun to my head, I'd say Xi is Tempted with all this possibly coinciding with their way to become Corrupted. Definitely not discounting the Jester discussion though.

----------


## Metastachydium

Meanwhile, did anyone other than Snow (Our Enemy) notice the ISO on me I linked? Previously, it seemed there's some demand from it.

----------


## flat_footed

> Meanwhile, did anyone other than Snow (Our Enemy) notice the ISO on me I linked? Previously, it seemed there's some demand from it.


I wouldn't call Snow an enemy at this time, no. Most discussion is going to be Town v Town just by the virtue of this game; Town has the majority or the game would be over.




> "This one will linger." set down at the table, the Flower looked at Cass inquisitively, only to grin a heartbeat after. Would you believe me if I told you I am reasonably well travelled? the plant asked the man. It is a key part of my, shall we say, vocation: to meet people in places away from whatever I can call home. I have been far enough in the south that I feared to take water until the sun sank behind the horizan, lest I boil and far enough in the north to see the days that never seem to end, suffering through white nights in chambers curtained off from all light. the Flower spoke dreamily, drawing lazy circles in the air with a leaf. One thing that I learned is this, sir: the vatic arts are quite real. They often say the Fates are blind, but it is just as widely held that they develop, let us say, other senses. The southerners say it is _touch_, albeit not the sort of touch mortals such as ourselves are familiar with. the little plant bobbed forward as if nodding. But enough of the preludes; our time is running thin, and I hope you have An understanding, if not neccessarily an insight I might not be able to access come tomorrow. What do you make of this comedy with our _Seer_?


Cass lets his chair thump to the ground slightly, subtly gripping his waterskin tighter as he hears his own name mentioned in hurried whispers. "For one who was born to set their roots in the unforgiving earth, you are remarkably well spoken." _Talking to animals is one thing, but this? Maybe I'm as crazy as that woman screaming outside about visions of doom from the clouds.. But these are far from ordinary times._ "I do not deal in mysticism, and I daresay I know a few people who would trust your words less than the leaves left in the tea they made from you. I may be simple compared to the others in this town, but I provide what I can for these people beyond my fair share. As for the seer," Cass pauses and his eyes unfocus for a moment as his listens, "-she's stopped her caterwauling and it appears that more level discussion is slowly starting to resume, though I am not fond of where it's headed just yet. It appears that you and I have both drawn our suspicions, Meta."

----------


## Metastachydium

> Cass lets his chair thump to the ground slightly, subtly gripping his waterskin tighter as he hears his own name mentioned in hurried whispers. "For one who was born to set their roots in the unforgiving earth, you are remarkably well spoken." _Talking to animals is one thing, but this? Maybe I'm as crazy as that woman screaming outside about visions of doom from the clouds.. But these are far from ordinary times._ "I do not deal in mysticism, and I daresay I know a few people who would trust your words less than the leaves left in the tea they made from you. I may be simple compared to the others in this town, but I provide what I can for these people beyond my fair share. As for the seer," Cass pauses and his eyes unfocus for a moment as his listens, "-she's stopped her caterwauling and it appears that more level discussion is slowly starting to resume, though I am not fond of where it's headed just yet. It appears that you and I have both drawn our suspicions, Meta."


Tea, you say? the Flower snorted in amusement that appeared genuine, seemingly ignoring the answer given to the question asked. Clearly, you are bursting with wit. What I would know, on the other hand, the plant continued, still smiling and looking up at the ceiling before motioning with a leaf towards the square stem holding the brilliantly coloured head and looking upwards again,for  somewhat longer. is what exactly is it that you can provide, for or against us. But you need not answer that. Perhaps you should not, either. Enjoy the day, Master Castleroy. with a final nod and wave, the Flower called the attendant from yesterday closer, who dutifully picked up the pot to carry it off onto the sun.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Bad vibes. We _need_ to know just what Xi's about, but an open invitation to mass investigate her with powers I'm suddenly developing this conspiracy theory that she has Watcher powers or an ally who does.







> Good notes, good notes. 
> I happen to know that AV is _not_ the Vigilante, however. I suppose you could just say there's a certain... connection between us, I can just tell.





> Eh, doesnt seem like my brand. 
> I am the Seer, though. I can confirm by giving AVs role: Seers Apprentice. I know my student.
> 
> Aaaand fiiiiiiine. Benoojian lit up as Corrupted.
> I suppose its possible I was vortexed or voided or Im the Fool, though. Thats why the test.





> I'm sure all the information-gathering powers aimed at me tonight will help us figure out what happened. That or you all killing me, I suppose.

----------


## Xihirli

Wow, the mechanics of my stuff keeps getting weirder, doesn't it?

*Unvote: Snowblaze*
Self-preservation vote on *Flat_Footed*.

----------


## Snowblaze

_screams into the abyss_

Well, that changes my calculations on what to do about the Xihirli problem. I'd say the fact she's not trying to explain what's going on and how it makes sense given town!her is a wolf giving up and accepting death, except... Xihirli.

 If you do want to explain stuff it would be greatly appreciated, though.

Also I just realised the reason the mechanical chaos is getting to me more than normal is it's been ages since I last saw D2 of an all-PR game. So I'm no longer acclimatised.

----------


## Illven

> 


So you're not the seer's apprentice? 

Or did you target Xi with your boon?

----------


## Benoojian

> Look, you said "kill the Dark Spirit and everyone escapes". All I did was arrange for that to happen. Anyway, didn't I get punished enough by missing out on ultimate power by one coin toss and having it go to my nemesis instead?
> 
> (Not you, Meta. My other nemesis. What does it say about me that I have more than one nemesis?)
> 
> _Oh, gods, this was a mess. Even by her standards.
> 
> The Seer, who was supposed to be wise and all-knowing, had accused the executioner. The executioner who had spared his victim, a harmless gossip who definitely hadn't made agreements with devils, and therefore was almost certainly not evil himself. 
> 
> So was the Seer secretly evil, or had some dark power confused her and given her false visions? Normally she'd stake her life on it being the latter, but so many strange things had happened since this had all begun that she didn't trust her knowledge any more.
> ...


This only reinforces my guess that you're a neutral with a solvy goal. I'm guessing "Survive long enough to post a list of all surviving players with the name of their role to win."

----------


## AvatarVecna

> So you're not the seer's apprentice? 
> 
> Or did you target Xi with your boon?

----------


## Benoojian

Xihirli as wolf with revenge kill power.Tried to get a free lynch(maybe suspected I was Ex and would get the immediate flip) and then 4 or 5 town powers get aimed at her and she insta-gibes half the town?

I notice that wasn't on your list Snow.

----------


## Illven

> Xihirli as wolf with revenge kill power.Tried to get a free lynch(maybe suspected I was Ex and would get the immediate flip) and then 4 or 5 town powers get aimed at her and she insta-gibes half the town?
> 
> I notice that wasn't on your list Snow.


The closest is a beast power, I think?  :Small Confused: 

But beast only targets one player. At this point in the game I don't think Xi would suicide bomb, cause it's way too early for that.

----------


## Xihirli

> _screams into the abyss_
> 
> Well, that changes my calculations on what to do about the Xihirli problem. I'd say the fact she's not trying to explain what's going on and how it makes sense given town!her is a wolf giving up and accepting death, except... Xihirli.
> 
>  If you do want to explain stuff it would be greatly appreciated, though.
> 
> Also I just realised the reason the mechanical chaos is getting to me more than normal is it's been ages since I last saw D2 of an all-PR game. So I'm no longer acclimatised.


I don't know why AV couldn't target me last night.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> I don't know why AV couldn't target me last night.

----------


## Benoojian

> The closest is a beast power, I think? 
> 
> But beast only targets one player. At this point in the game I don't think Xi would suicide bomb, cause it's way too early for that.


So you're saying the power "one night per game, kill every player that targets you" is a power in literally every other version of werewolf except play by post. Call me skeptical of that claim.

----------


## Illven

> So you're saying the power "one night per game, kill every player that targets you" is a power in literally every other version of werewolf except play by post. Call me skeptical of that claim.


No I'm saying I've never interacted with that power, cause this is my second game?  :Small Confused:

----------


## AvatarVecna

> So you're saying the power "one night per game, kill every player that targets you" is a power in literally every other version of werewolf except play by post. Call me skeptical of that claim.

----------


## Benoojian

> 


Because that's a completely different power? I never said Beast.

Edit:
I have played with the following revenge kill powers

1.kill one person who voted for you when you're lynched
2.one night per game, go on alert and shoot anyone that tries to kill you that night
3.one night per game, go on alert and kill all players that target you that night.
4. One day per game, when you are not lynched, activate your power and attack all players that voted for you that night.
5. When you die, choose one player to shoot.
6.Choose a player each night, if they target you that night, you kill them.

I assume there are even weirder ones allowed by the particular format of play by post.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> 


As (theoretically) Seer's apprentice, did you receive anything as to their alignment?

Given what flat shared, are they still a viable wagon here?

----------


## Illven

Okay Ben, what is said power called?

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> 


Now veteran (killing people who try to target you) is absolutely a powerset, but generally veterans are town-aligned and try not to bait people into targeting them. So probably not the case here.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Because that's a completely different power? I never said Beast.

----------


## Xihirli

Well I don't know why you received that feedback, AV. 
What were your results, if you don't mind me asking?

----------


## Benoojian

> Okay Ben, what is said power called?


Veteran in Town of Salem, various names in card game versions (gun nut, paranoid hunter). I don't know the particular lexicon for GiTP roles so I have no way to name the closest role here.

- - - Updated - - -




> 


I have played with at least 6 different revenge powers and you are claiming that the devious minds on this forum have NEVER used anything more complicated than "when you die, kill one"

Press 'x' to doubt.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Veteran in Town of Salem, various names in card game versions (gun nut, paranoid hunter). I don't know the particular lexicon for GiTP roles so I have no way to name the closest role here.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> 
> I have played with at least 6 different revenge powers and you are claiming that the devious minds on this forum have NEVER used anything more complicated than "when you die, kill one"
> 
> Press 'x' to doubt.


*Spoiler: You're still misunderstanding*
Show

----------


## Benoojian

> Now veteran (killing people who try to target you) is absolutely a powerset, but generally veterans are town-aligned and try not to bait people into targeting them. So probably not the case here.


Judge, jailer in town of Salem, is usually town-aligned as well, so I don't know that general role alignments are as strong an indicator as normal for this game. In fact it would fit the "Corrupted, Tempted" theme if everyone had traditionally Town roles and we had to judge based on their actions instead of their role.

Which then brings up the seperate possibility of Evil!Seer Xihirli I guess.

- - - Updated - - -




> *Spoiler: You're still misunderstanding*
> Show


My counter: Deliberate Bastard game. Single target being more common is not the same as multi-target never happening.

----------


## Snowblaze

I think I remember seeing a "Paranoid Gun Owner" somewhere which does what Benoojian claims. It's not typically a wolf role, I think, and to my knowledge has never been used here. 

(For good reason.)

But fine, since the list is rather tinfoily anyway, let's make that option... what letter are we on? i), I think. And add to it j) Xihirli is town and trying to get lynched so she can have a private chat with Benoojian and pass on information. (I unironically considered that strategy for a little while before realising the benefits aren't really that great given wolves already know half of the PRs by now.)

----------


## Benoojian

One of Rogan's stated goals was to used a lot of unusual mechanics so an argument that it fundamentally rooted in established GiTP tropes rather than in what is happening in _this game_ may not only be flawed but be being deliberately undermined by the Narrator

- - - Updated - - -

This is also what pisses me off about Xihirli's "posting messages is too meta-gamey". Because everyone is already relying on meta-game information, like assuming how certain roles work and how those roles are aligned. Even if the Narrator is not actually an evil role, the sheer number of unknown mechanics he has added are essentially an additional enemy team that all factions (except maybe Neutrals) need to defeat. Refusing to share information on how Rogan is handling Vortex-type roles is an inherently Anti-Town action, regardless of Xihirli's actual alignment.

----------


## Xihirli

We don't know that there even are Vortexes.

----------


## Benoojian

On that note, I received the info "Each Tempted has their own way to get Corrupted" from targeting Illven, which I only just realized almost certainly means they're tempted, not Corrupted. Sorry for pushing you so hard earlier, Illven.

----------


## Caedorus

That power would mean if that wolf got lynched about half of town would die.

----------


## Benoojian

> We don't know that there even are Vortexes.


If there aren't Vortexes you're Corrupted, so now it just sounds like you want to be lynched.

- - - Updated - - -




> That power would mean if that wolf got lynched about half of town would die.


The "if you aren't lynched kill all your accusers" yeah it was pretty broken, do not recommend. I haven't seen if you ARE lynched kill all your accusers, probably for good reason, but it is Mechanically possible.

- - - Updated - - -

Honestly Xihirli's actions are just confusing me. They don't seem to have a strong desire to live or a strong desire to not live.

Oh, oh, is Neutral role that wants to get a specific town member lynched a common role on GitP? If Xi was supposed to get me lynched then the apathy after I was mostly town-cleared makes sense, since she can't win anymore but isn't out of the game.

----------


## Caedorus

On giantitp? I've seen it. In this game? Don't think so, because of the whole "powers won't influence wincons" thing.

----------


## flat_footed

> Wow, the mechanics of my stuff keeps getting weirder, doesn't it?
> 
> *Unvote: Snowblaze*
> Self-preservation vote on *Flat_Footed*.





> 


It may have been a result of Xi's boon, "Anyone targeting you will additionally be told you cannot be reliably targeted". I could almost buy this as Xi's boon from Rogan, and sent in an effort to not have this be a bastard game with unreliable results from a reliable power.




> So you're saying the power "one night per game, kill every player that targets you" is a power in literally every other version of werewolf except play by post. Call me skeptical of that claim.


I'll also say this is the first I've heard of a retribution power that could affect more than one other player.




> Well I don't know why you received that feedback, AV. 
> What were your results, if you don't mind me asking?


Yes, I'd like to know what was received, even if it may not be reliable.




> On that note, I received the info "Each Tempted has their own way to get Corrupted" from targeting Illven, which I only just realized almost certainly means they're tempted, not Corrupted. Sorry for pushing you so hard earlier, Illven.


Illven, are you able to confirm being Corrupted? If so, what is your requirement to become Corrupted? Even though you are technically town, conversion powers have a way of tilting the game into the wolves' favor.




> Honestly Xihirli's actions are just confusing me.


That's Xi in a nutshell. Her chaos is known far and wide here.

----------


## Benoojian

> On giantitp? I've seen it. In this game? Don't think so, because of the whole "powers won't influence wincons" thing.


That's not what Rogan said, he said none of the Neutral win conditions will _prevent_ another faction from winning. Lynching a single townie doesn't prevent good from winning. It may influence whether good wins, but it doesn't outright prevent it.

Edit: Just double checked, it is actually "won't prevent another player from winning". I am assuming that dead players still count as winning if their faction wins on GitP? Otherwise roles that sacrifice themselves a benefit straight up don't work.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Yes, I'd like to know what was received, even if it may not be reliable.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Well I don't know why you received that feedback, AV. 
> What were your results, if you don't mind me asking?


This is supreme trolling and I cannot believe no one else is picking up on it. This is more like the Xihirli I remember. 

Did... did Flat just ask a tempted the specific circumstances in which they could join the evil team? Why would we ever want that knowledge to be public?! That seems like staggeringly poor knowledge to spread.

----------


## Metastachydium

> wolves already know half of the PRs by now.)


Come again?

- - - Updated - - -




> I am assuming that dead players still count as winning if their faction wins on GitP?


Yes, they do.

- - - Updated - - -




> That power would mean if that wolf got lynched about half of town would die.


1. Back in Utropia I had a power that could, on theory, kill the entire Town at once. Batcathat carried its Town-aligned equivalent. It is possible. Not likely, but possible.
2. Can we now can the topic? It produces a lot of noise in a game I already have difficulty following properly.

----------


## Xihirli

> This is supreme trolling and I cannot believe no one else is picking up on it. This is more like the Xihirli I remember. 
> 
> Did... did Flat just ask a tempted the specific circumstances in which they could join the evil team? Why would we ever want that knowledge to be public?! That seems like staggeringly poor knowledge to spread.


Remember from when?
Have I been markedly different of late?

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Remember from when?
> Have I been markedly different of late?


Where's AV to make a meme when you need it?

Xihirli testing out a seer claim -> I sleep
Xihirli adamantly denying revealing their results out of principle, just to ask someone else for their results on the next page -> I wake

Or maybe the other way around? You get the point. This is the chaos energy I expect from you.

----------


## Caedorus

Xihirli probs doesn't want to quote the pr, but does want to know it.

----------


## Snowblaze

The "half town's PRs" thing was me exaggerating for dramatic effect. 

In other news, I doubt my BCH wagon is going anywhere so I'm hopping back to *Metastachydium*. I know there's the whole Xihirli thing but whatever I do with that feels like a trap so I'm just going to ignore it and let everyone else decide.

Ilven probably being tempted is duly noted. I think we can afford to leave that until later...

Probably at most four wolves, three Tempted (though even then I'd call that pretty strongly wolfsided) and we can safely assume not all of the Tempted have yet been converted and there's enough mechanical clears we have a decent chance of finding wolves in POE. Yeah. No need to panic just yet.

Oh, and note to self: next town game, RP as an utterly, irredeemably evil villain to prove that my RP and my alignment are not related.

----------


## Allando

For the next 18 hours we will be offline. I'm really confused by Xihirli saying they were willing to die only to make a self-preservation vote...
I'm honestly the most suspicious of *Xihirli* now.

----------


## Caedorus

*Xihirli* 10chars

- - - Updated - - -

*Xihirli* attempt 2

----------


## 3SecondCultist

Yeah no, the Xi thing has me properly scratching my head. Since I am not certain what is going on with those wagons, I will stay where I am for the time being. Still contend that flat is wolfy, though I think I am alone on that now?

----------


## Xihirli

> Where's AV to make a meme when you need it?
> 
> Xihirli testing out a seer claim -> I sleep
> Xihirli adamantly denying revealing their results out of principle, just to ask someone else for their results on the next page -> I wake
> 
> Or maybe the other way around? You get the point. This is the chaos energy I expect from you.


I _did_ reveal my results.

----------


## bladescape

Catchup on thread, Xi wagon is fine, but I won't vote there because I personally think this fits Xi's town M.O. more than wolf, so it's more likely to be neutral or town. 

Flat I had as a minor suspicion so I'm good with that wagon too. I'm going to still stick on my pet favourite read for now tho. Need to actually do that show of why BCH/Meta are super sus from yesterday.

Also has BCH done much today? Memory doesn't remember them really doing much yet.

----------


## Rogan

*Spoiler: Vote history*
Show

Caedorus votes bladescape (1) 
bladescape votes Metastachydium (1) 
Caedorus votes bladescape (1) unvotes bladescape (1)
3SecondCultist votes Illven (1) 
flat_footed votes Metastachydium (2) 
Snowblaze votes flat_footed (1) 
Allando votes bladescape (2) 
3SecondCultist votes flat_footed (2) unvotes Illven (0)
AvatarVecna votes 3SecondCultist (1) 
Benoojian votes Illven (1) 
Cazero votes 3SecondCultist (2) 
Cazero votes Batcathat (1) unvotes 3SecondCultist (1)
Rakkoon votes Illven (2) 
Rakkoon votes bladescape (3) unvotes Illven (1)
Batcathat votes Metastachydium (3) 
Xihirli votes Benoojian (1) 
Let'sGetKraken votes Benoojian (2) 
Batcathat votes Benoojian (3) unvotes Metastachydium (2)
Metastachydium votes Benoojian (4) 
Rakkoon votes Benoojian (5) unvotes bladescape (2)
flat_footed votes Benoojian (6) unvotes Metastachydium (1)
3SecondCultist votes Benoojian (7) unvotes flat_footed (1)
Let'sGetKraken unvotes Benoojian (6)
Xihirli unvotes Benoojian (5)
3SecondCultist unvotes Benoojian (4)
Batcathat unvotes Benoojian (3)
Let'sGetKraken votes Xihirli (1) 
Benoojian votes Xihirli (2) unvotes Illven (0)
Xihirli votes Snowblaze (1) 
Snowblaze votes Metastachydium (2) unvotes flat_footed (0)
Illven votes Metastachydium (3) 
Batcathat votes Metastachydium (4) 
Rakkoon votes Xihirli (3) unvotes Benoojian (2)
Caedorus votes flat_footed (1) unvotes bladescape (1)
Allando votes flat_footed (2) unvotes bladescape (0)
Snowblaze votes flat_footed (3) unvotes Metastachydium (3)
3SecondCultist votes flat_footed (4) 
Grand Arbiter votes flat_footed (5) 
Metastachydium votes Xihirli (4) unvotes Benoojian (1)
flat_footed unvotes Benoojian (0)
Snowblaze votes Batcathat (2) unvotes flat_footed (4)
AvatarVecna votes Xihirli (5) unvotes 3SecondCultist (0)
Xihirli votes flat_footed (5) unvotes Snowblaze (0)
Snowblaze votes Metastachydium (4) unvotes Batcathat (1)
Allando votes Xihirli (6) unvotes flat_footed (4)
Caedorus votes Xihirli (7) unvotes flat_footed (3)



Vote Count:
Xihirli: 7 (Caedorus, Allando, AvatarVecna, Benoojian, Rakkoon, Let'sGetKraken, Metastachydium)
Metastachydium: 4 (bladescape, Snowblaze, Batcathat, Illven)
flat_footed: 3 (3SecondCultist, Xihirli, Grand Arbiter)
Batcathat: 1 (Cazero)

This is both for your information and as a test for my new little tool I've written to make the counting easier.
If you think there is a mistake in the count, please let me know.

----------


## Batcathat

> Yeah no, the Xi thing has me properly scratching my head. Since I am not certain what is going on with those wagons, I will stay where I am for the time being. Still contend that flat is wolfy, though I think I am alone on that now?


Personally, I think it's possible that flat is a wolf, but since one of the strongest argument for that seems to be possibly saving wolf buddy Meta by switching his vote, I think it's better to start with Meta.

As for Xi, I think it's more likely that she's either townie whose power got messed with, some sort of neutral or a tempted (possibly trying to get corrupted) than a wolf, though her flip might clear things up in any case, so I'm not very opposed to that wagon.

Also, sorry I haven't been super active today. Part of it can be blamed on important real life stuff, but most of it is probably due to finally getting around to finish Pillars of Eternity.  :Small Tongue: 

- - - Updated - - -




> Also has BCH done much today? Memory doesn't remember them really doing much yet.


Very well-timed question. I haven't done that much, no, though I'm fine with my vote being where it is.

----------


## Benoojian

> I _did_ reveal my results.


No you _interpreted_ your results

----------


## flat_footed

> I have a mechanical reason to trust BCH, which I'm willing to discuss if they are. Since the day is over in 29 hours instead of 5, I'll wait a bit on that instead of blowing their cover like AV has claimed Xi did to them.


Just wanted to make sure you caught this, Bat.

----------


## Illven

> It may have been a result of Xi's boon, "Anyone targeting you will additionally be told you cannot be reliably targeted". I could almost buy this as Xi's boon from Rogan, and sent in an effort to not have this be a bastard game with unreliable results from a reliable power.


My concern about this, is Rogan said they would not lie. So I don't think they'd allow a boon that is "I'll lie about you."

I could see it, if Xi was also not reliably targeted able.

----------


## Benoojian

> My concern about this, is Rogan said they would not lie. So I don't think they'd allow a boon that is "I'll lie about you."
> 
> I could see it, if Xi was also not reliably targeted able.


If there are at least two target block or role switch, it is technically true that everyone cannot be reliably targeted.

On that note, I might do an ISO of all of Rogan's statements to see if I am making anymore assumptions that he didn't actually say and if there are any assumptions he is encouraging but not actually saying(Am I using ISO correctly or is that only for a lynch case😅)

----------


## flat_footed

> On that note, I might do an ISO of all of Rogan's statements to see if I am making anymore assumptions that he didn't actually say and if there are any assumptions he is encouraging but not actually saying(Am I using ISO correctly or is that only for a lynch case😅)


Might be mistaken, but ISO=isolation. Looking at someone's comments in a vacuum to see what you might be able to uncover.

And I can say Rogan as a Narrator isn't completely outside of the game's designs. I've asked some questions about interactions and they are targetable in some cases.

----------


## Xihirli

Id just like to congratulate all my wolf buddies this has been a great bus. Really excited about every single one of you being considered lock-town from here on out just as we planned.

----------


## Benoojian

> Id just like to congratulate all my wolf buddies this has been a great bus. Really excited about every single one of you being considered lock-town from here on out just as we planned.


So what tipped you off that I was Executioner and allowed you to set that up?

----------


## Xihirli

Yea, great job Ben; keep going with that story. Thumbs up, wolf buddy!

----------


## Benoojian

> Id just like to congratulate all my wolf buddies this has been a great bus. Really excited about every single one of you being considered lock-town from here on out just as we planned.


Come on, you're supposed to play along 😒

----------


## bladescape

Am I just doing that thing where I start every game townreading the wolves now.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

Funny. 

Xihirli

To the folks who replied to me before, I _would_ vote Meta - the reasoning is there, I'm following that it might be a Meta wolf world - but I want Xi gone at this point. Seer, not-Seer, Jester, wolf, I don't know, but it's taking over the game and isn't good for gamestate either way. This is like the Thing from a few games ago with BookWombat, it warps the day and makes pretty much any other discussion useless. Let's just shut her up and be on our way.

----------


## Illven

> This is like the Thing from a few games ago with BookWombat, it warps the day and makes pretty much any other discussion useless. Let's just shut her up and be on our way.


Can I get more details on this?

Rogan has provided.

----------


## Benoojian

I know this is going to sound weird but Does Xihirli's flip give us any information?

If town or tempted with non-murdering Ben corruption trigger we learn that there is a Vortex and AV is basically confirmed townie (it also maybe puts a little suspicion on me if I'm being honest but hopefully not much)

If neutral, just some mechanical info, and probably strengthens my case as town but throws the AV identity into question a tiny bit.

If Corrupted, we kill a Corrupted but don't gain much in the way of info. I think AVs town cred is just as good as with town Xi, unless the role reveals something weird.

Since we can be almost sure that Xi is not the last wolf, is there anything lost by killing another suspect and just ignoring Xi for a day?

----------


## Xihirli

> Let's just shut her up and be on our way.


I bet you say that to all the girls.

----------


## bladescape

> I know this is going to sound weird but Does Xihirli's flip give us any information?
> 
> If town or tempted with non-murdering Ben corruption trigger we learn that there is a Vortex and AV is basically confirmed townie (it also maybe puts a little suspicion on me if I'm being honest but hopefully not much)
> 
> If neutral, just some mechanical info, and probably strengthens my case as town but throws the AV identity into question a tiny bit.
> 
> If Corrupted, we kill a Corrupted but don't gain much in the way of info. I think AVs town cred is just as good as with town Xi, unless the role reveals something weird.
> 
> Since we can be almost sure that Xi is not the last wolf, is there anything lost by killing another suspect and just ignoring Xi for a day?


Sure, but what's your better target?

I still like Meta.

If you want focus outside a pivotal talking point you have to provide content for others to interact with.

- - - Updated - - -

That being said, Xi's flip does give us info.

If Xi explicitly flips Corrupted, then look at the exact state of thread when they claim their seer test on you. 


Because wolves don't claim a seer test for no reason. Who was under enough pressure that Xi wants to distract from that?

That information however is irrelevant if Xi flips Tempted or Town.

----------


## Xihirli

> If Xi explicitly flips Corrupted, then look at the exact state of thread when they claim their seer test on you. 
> 
> 
> Because wolves don't claim a seer test for no reason. Who was under enough pressure that Xi wants to distract from that?


Blade, you were in the clear! All my hard work to save you wasted!

----------


## Persolus

> Id just like to congratulate all my wolf buddies this has been a great bus. Really excited about every single one of you being considered lock-town from here on out just as we planned.


See, _this_ is the Xihirli we all know and lovelive in fear of.

----------


## bladescape

> Blade, you were in the clear! All my hard work to save you wasted!


Sssssh. They won't suspect it's me if I point out where to look!

----------


## Xihirli

> See, _this_ is the Xihirli we all know and lovelive in fear of.


Not for long!

----------


## Benoojian

> Sure, but what's your better target?
> 
> ....
> 
> Because wolves don't claim a seer test for no reason. Who was under enough pressure that Xi wants to distract from that?


Weren't you the one with the most votes before Xi accused me?

----------


## bladescape

> Weren't you the one with the most votes before Xi accused me?


Possibly? I haven't checked myself.

But sure, you can suspect me. I'm pointing out the things to use or check or look for in general. Because flipping Xi does give info.

----------


## Xihirli

> Weren't you the one with the most votes before Xi accused me?


Ben, _shh_! You're totally blowing this for us!

----------


## Benoojian

> Ben, _shh_! You're totally blowing this for us!


Oh, do you two need a private room? I thought you were spending the night with me Xi? 😟

----------


## Xihirli

Gosh, Ben, buy me a drink first.

----------


## Benoojian

> Gosh, Ben, buy me a drink first.


I did buy you a ring...well it's really more of a noose.

----------


## flat_footed

_If you sus it, then you shoulda put a noose on it._

I hate myself for this but could not resist.

----------


## Snowblaze

So we're killing Xihirli, then? All right. Guess I'll use the extended day (*@Rogan* I presume we do have a 24-hour extension?) to skim through my null-and-blind-spot pile. 

Grand Arbiter is... if I squint I can wolfread him for giving reads without actually giving any strong stances but there've been enough players who've done wolfier things than that that I'm not going to.

- - - Updated - - -

*Spoiler: Aleph Null not-quite-ISO*
Show


Having removed the three posts not actually containing solvy stuff: two about how he's busy IRL and one RP post.



> Just got done with being IRL ubermega busy, so let me give the thread a read so I can make an informed choice unlike last game 
> 
> Actual Post:
> 
> Ok yeah jumping on a wagon and thereby changing your vote without a good explanation is a pretty big flag if you ask me. Also, though, the fact that AV hasn't posted anything that isn't an image is kind of making me think special/oddity role of some kind. Dunno tho.
> The placeholder vote doesn't warrant an OMGUS.
> *Allando* didn't quite explain away the refusal to vote  most people vote with their first posts as far as I am aware, so voting with one's third is no different, and you _did_ end up voting. If you were trying to brush it off as a joke you could have always revoked it, but you didn't. That requires a bit more of an explain IMHO.


Eh, suspicion of Caedorus but voting Allando instead. I can't really argue that as partner-y with either, naturally, so lack of evident wolfy motivation means it's NAI. 

The reasons are acceptable, I suppose, so I can't really justify a wolfread here and despite my gut saying I should we established last game my gut isn't too reliable on Aleph. 




> I am going to have to wait until day to get a better picture, but I had some suspicion towards Caedorus and also a bit on Meta. The reason I voted where I did was to illicit a response that would give a better idea of who was helping whom out behind the scenes, plus the general presence of certain bastard mechanics that have neither been confirmed nor denied. After the vote counts I grew suspicious of Persolus as well, though I'm uncertain still because powers can be "wolfy" but still be the boon you got before game started and thus not related to your role at all. But vote altering powers are definitely wolfy, though it isn't certain who actually was manipulating the votes.
> Whether or not Caedorus flips wolf is probably going to affect my decisions going forward (including tonight) which is why I'm a bit frustrated that we've been given a deadline for night actions without a clear idea of when we're going to get that information (or indeed whether we're just meant to not know that information for making those decisions)
> EDIT: I was told in private that we will in fact not know that when deciding night actions.


Caedorus + Meta were pretty consensus at that point, though given how many people were just going along with said consensus it's not wolfy in isolation. 

I could kind of suspect the "I was voting to see how people reacted" and then not analysing how people reacted, but that's probably a me thing that isn't actually wolfy. 


And Aleph has not posted at all D2. Treating the Bartender thing as NAI, I guess this comes out still null. My gut says it's wolfy but my gut is unreliable and I can't really justify it in this instance.

----------


## rakkoon

Flat has a mechanical reason to trust Cat.
I don't need to know more details if that would help the wolves but does Cat trust Flat?
Sincerely Rak

----------


## Batcathat

> Flat has a mechanical reason to trust Cat.
> I don't need to know more details if that would help the wolves but does Cat trust Flat?


Sort of? I don't have any reasons  mechanical or otherwise  for trusting him more than I've already said (to sum up, I'm generally leaning slightly town on him and while the last minute vote switch is troubling I think it would be better to go after Meta first and evaluate flat based on that).

----------


## Snowblaze

Book Wombat is Book Wombat. Part of me wants to townread him but I have no justification whatsoever for doing that.

On skim through Cazero I have "probably unpaired with BCH?" and "needs to be poked with questions". So I will do that:

- why BCH?
- thoughts on Meta?
- who do you townread, and why?
- what's your preferred option from the "what is Xihirli doing?!" list?

----------


## Book Wombat

> Book Wombat is Book Wombat. Part of me wants to townread him but I have no justification whatsoever for doing that.


Indeed you don't.

*No Lynch* for now. Might change later.

----------


## rakkoon

Why no lynch? You don't like any of the wagons?

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

Okay, since I did promise to substantiate this, here's an ISO on Snow's earlier posts to see whether or not my gut read of "Wasn't as substantively solvy early" was valid. 
*Spoiler: Snow's comments for the first three pages*
Show






> Well, if you want to go back to the tradition of trying to get each other killed, who am I to deny you? *Batcathat*.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> 
> _Because of course there was a hidden royal heir. That was how these things always seemed to work. Well, hopefully this one was of the less obnoxious kind. The woman in white sighed and rose to her feet. 
> 
> "You have summoned me," she said, "and I have come. What would you ask of me?" Never let it be said of her that she had not played her part to perfection when it was required._





> I spent far too long trying to figure out why GA was in the list without any context, whether he was actually playing (yes), whether he had posted (I don't think so) and why counting him meant this added up to 22 players (Jeen was counted as simultaneously voting and not voting).





> Good, Persolus noticed GA was still missing. I felt bad about pointing it out instead of letting him sleep. 
> 
> _"Faith," repeated the woman in white meditatively. "I doubt knowing which god the late paladin followed would help us. Many people claim that these distinctions matter, but in the end? There are only two true faiths. Good, and evil. And we must all choose, sooner or later, between the two. Because as long as there are good and evil, there will be war between them."
> 
> Some would call it heresy. She called it truth. There was no use in spending your life hiding from it. As to the side she had chosen? That was for her to know, and others to find out if they so desired._
> 
> (tfw you're writing some fanciful RP and trying to get inside a character's head and then realise you've strayed closer than you'd like to the "don't talk about these things" line. Disclaimer: my character's views do not represent mine and are not meant as commentary on any real-world religions.)
> 
> ...oh, right, I'm supposed to be hunting wolves. That can wait until tomorrow, I'm not in the mood for trying to dredge up reads rn.





> _"'Your Evilness' is always a good title. Does rather run the risk of summoning heroes to kill you, but I've always thought those things don't matter so much. You should embrace who you are. As for my title?" 
> 
> She shrugged. "Telling you my true title would rather spoil my air of mystery. I'll answer to 'my Lady'."_
> 
> 
> ...okay, fine, I'll stop sitting on the sidelines being mysterious. That's bladescape's role, not mine.
> 
> So, since there has been precisely one topic of discussion, let's talk about Caedorus. 
> 
> Oh, right, I need to find quotes. Back in a second...





> *Spoiler: stuff Caedorus has done*
> Show
> 
> 
> I can wolfread this if I squint, but not for the defensiveness (that's overdone for dramatic effect and NAI, I think). 
> 
> My problem with it would be that the last sentence feels over-explainy. Already thinking "people are going to be questioning me and maybe suspecting me". I do sometimes feel that way as town so it's not the most reliable of tells, but it's better than nothing imo. 
> 
> 
> ...





> _stares_
> 
> So... why did you say Caedorus was sus earlier, and why did you then change your mind?
> 
> 
> _"Pretentious I may be," she replied, very deliberately keeping her hands by her sides, "but at least I'm not cliched enough to hide my face behind a cloak." 
> 
> She sat nevertheless, positioned so she was close enough to the general discussion to play her part in it but could still exchange friendly insults with the cloaked figure. "And of course I have garnered attention," she continued. "I am nothing without my audience, after all."_ 
> 
> ...





> I don't think Grand Arbiter is self-voting. (He's voting for Aleph Null iirc). 
> 
> Thanks anyway. I only just realised that Kraken is playing and I missed my chance to random-vote him. Alas.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> tbf I had terrible reads that game and was distracted by the hydra game, so it's probably a good thing I died. Though please don't do it again!
> 
> Which placeholder vote are you talking about here?





> Yup, can confirm I could fake what I've done so far as a wolf.
> 
> Also I believe it was Persolus saying they were doing the vote count at 2am, not Rakkoon seeing the timestamp as 2am Rakkoon time.
> 
> Thoughts on Allando/Caedorus?





> "Good faith effort to solve" and "wolf" are mutually exclusive. I think you mean "ruthlessly bussed multiple partners". 
> 
> (Though I should add that I'm not a wolf this time.)
> 
> I'm torn between "I can see the angle 3SC is coming from here, I think he's town" and "3SC is defending his wolf partner Allando". I think I believe the former more, but remind me of this if Allando flips wolf.





> *Spoiler: Aleph Null's post*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...







There's a LOT of observational stuff here that originally pinged me as "Snow is trying to be active without being substantively solvy as she normally is" (and a lot of the reads are QUITE HEDGY), but Snow does make a solid attempt at a few reads and I think my gut can largely be disregarded here. So Snow's back to largely null for me (Sorry Snow <3)

Re: Xihirli, can those players with more experience chime in? While I'd like to think that town!Xihirli would try harder to save herself with such a powerful information-gathering role, I'm not sure if that's actually the case - and I agree that her flipping town wouldn't be particularly helpful. 

*Unvote Xihirli* for now.

----------


## Snowblaze

> Okay, since I did promise to substantiate this, here's an ISO on Snow's earlier posts to see whether or not my gut read of "Wasn't as substantively solvy early" was valid. 
> *Spoiler: Snow's comments for the first three pages*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Apology accepted. Though may I also point out that it was the first three pages and so non-hedgy reads were unlikely to exist? 

Also can I interest you in joining the Meta wagon?

----------


## Cazero

> - why BCH?


I was feeling contrarian. Don't have concrete wolfreads yet.



> - thoughts on Meta?


It's a talking flower. You want to watch out for those. Clear sign of something in your water supply.



> - who do you townread, and why?


Caedorus because he was revealed. Allondo because of the mason thing.
Everyone else I suspect of being possibly tempted.



> - what's your preferred option from the "what is Xihirli doing?!" list?


There's only 3 options there :
The executioneer is actualy corrupted. We should vote Benoojian.Xi got vortexed. We should vote somewhere else.Xi just lied. We should vote Xi.
So far, I think the vortexed option is the more likely. Xi apparently knows Seer-privy info, even though their handling of it is mega sus.

----------


## AvatarVecna

*Spoiler: Xihirli dying helps me figure out my N1 results*
Show




> I know this is going to sound weird but Does Xihirli's flip give us any information?





> Re: Xihirli, can those players with more experience chime in? While I'd like to think that town!Xihirli would try harder to save herself with such a powerful information-gathering role, I'm not sure if that's actually the case - and I agree that her flipping town wouldn't be particularly helpful.





> Originally Posted by Xihirli
> 
> 
> Well I don't know why you received that feedback, AV. 
> What were your results, if you don't mind me asking?
> 
> 
> Yes, I'd like to know what was received, even if it may not be reliable.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Apology accepted. Though may I also point out that it was the first three pages and so non-hedgy reads were unlikely to exist? 
> 
> Also can I interest you in joining the Meta wagon?


That didn't stop you as SK!  :Small Tongue: 

I am fine with voting *Metastachydium*. (I hope that autocorrect is legit). I am still hella suspicious of Xihirli but I'm worried that offing the actual seer might be a bad play.




> I was feeling contrarian. Don't have concrete wolfreads yet.
> 
> It's a talking flower. You want to watch out for those. Clear sign of something in your water supply.
> 
> Caedorus because he was revealed. Allondo because of the mason thing.
> Everyone else I suspect of being possibly tempted.
> 
> There's only 3 options there :
> The executioneer is actualy corrupted. We should vote Benoojian.Xi got vortexed. We should vote somewhere else.Xi just lied. We should vote Xi.
> So far, I think the vortexed option is the more likely. Xi apparently knows Seer-privy info, even though their handling of it is mega sus.


To be clear, Xi doesn't have seer-privy info. Xi has information on AV's role. Those are two very different things. 

If Benooj was corrupted they almost certainly would not have saved Caedorus, who has been mechanically cleared. Which is why Xi is deeply suspicious but should probably have one more round to prove their innocence, after sleeping on it. I just don't know why Xi would take such a bold play so early in the game as a wolf.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> That didn't stop you as SK! 
> 
> I am fine with voting *Metastachydium*. (I hope that autocorrect is legit). I am still hella suspicious of Xihirli but I'm worried that offing the actual seer might be a bad play.
> 
> 
> 
> To be clear, Xi doesn't have seer-privy info. Xi has information on AV's role. Those are two very different things. 
> 
> If Benooj was corrupted they almost certainly would not have saved Caedorus, who has been mechanically cleared. Which is why Xi is deeply suspicious but should probably have one more round to prove their innocence, after sleeping on it. I just don't know why Xi would take such a bold play so early in the game as a wolf.

----------


## flat_footed

I'm in favor of voting whoever will give us the most useful information by their flip. Right now, that seems to be *Xi*.




> If Benooj was corrupted they almost certainly would not have saved Caedorus, who has been mechanically cleared. Which is why Xi is deeply suspicious but should probably have one more round to prove their innocence, after sleeping on it. I just don't know why Xi would take such a bold play so early in the game as a wolf.


I'm still not discounting the Executioner being tempted, and saving the life of a lynched townie allowing them to become corrupted. Same thing with Xi making what is seemingly a crazy play, even by her standards.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Apology accepted. Though may I also point out that it was the first three pages and so non-hedgy reads were unlikely to exist? 
> 
> Also can I interest you in joining the Meta wagon?


Oh, and _I_'m the strangely fixated one!




> It's a talking flower. You want to watch out for those. Clear sign of something in your water supply.


What, Red Bull?




> Caedorus because he was revealed. Allondo because of the mason thing.
> Everyone else I suspect of being possibly tempted.


Even the two they are vouching for?




> That didn't stop you as SK! 
> 
> I am fine with voting *[COLOR="#FF0000"]Metastachydium[COLOR]*. (I hope that autocorrect is legit).


You make me said, but strangely proud. The spelling is indeed correct!

♣
Can we have a vote count or something?

----------


## AvatarVecna

> I'm in favor of voting whoever will give us the most useful information by their flip. Right now, that seems to be *Xi*.


*Spoiler: I'm so glad to hear you say that*
Show

----------


## Snowblaze

It appears I've got through all the easy ISOs, everyone from here has >20 posts. No promises I'll get this one finished before EOD, but from D3 onwards I'll be able to devote more time to this game (assuming I'm alive).

*Spoiler: Rakkoon ISO, Part One*
Show


So this ended up a bit out of order due to the way I fetched quotes. I've bolded where it starts in normal chronology below if you want to read it in proper order.  


> Good morning everyone.
> I don't know enough about the brothers to form an opinion
> 
> 
> Thank you, wondrous Flower!
> 
> 
> ***Backs away***
> 
> ...


The first meaningful game-related content being "I don't know enough to form an opinion" is... not inspiring. I guess a point for asking questions. (Shut up, voice saying "has partner equity with Meta", pre-flipping is bad and I should not do it.)



> @persolus, you want me to D1 read so that you can lynch me tomorrow if I'm proven incorrect...sure
> 
> Snowblaze: Is surely acting like they are trying to solve: GOOD read
> flat_footed: Has said absolutely nothing related to suspicions: NULL read
> Batcathat: Doesn't like memes = SUS but apart from that nothing. NULL read
> Persolus: Please don't kill me. Vote count at 2AM = trying too hard? Appears to be wrong later, creating confusion. SUS read.
> Allando: Protects Caedorus and admits coaching him. Still hasn't voted although keeps talking about it. SUS read.
> 
> My random vote for meta is a lonely vote but blade is seconding it in words but not in actions....
> ...


Is that first line sarcasm? I hope it is. 

I think this was one of the posts that gave me feelings of "everyone is just being too consensus-y and surface-level" in earlygame. Is it actually wolfy? In isolation, no, but certainly not worthy of towncred. 

I would have liked it if that bladescape remark had actually gone somewhere; as it is it feels like thin shade. Allando vote is Fine(TM).




> "Do you think that a player asking you for your reads makes them inherently less suspicious?"
> I don't know these specific players but if I have to choose between the two I find somewhat suspicious, I would find it rude to vote for the one that asked me for me reads.
> Apparently Persolus is playing the same as always, which could very well be true. Having said that, putting almost everyone in the "It's day one, we don't know" category is boring so now I have at least two suspects. And more people are answering and talking which yields us more information.
> 
> Trashpanda, trashpanda.....better? (everyone's a critic)


Yeah, this is understandable. No problems with this post.
_Jump down a few posts!_
*Start here!*



> A paladin was murdered you say?
> What faith was he following?
> Perhaps therein lies a clue.
> I actually get paid irl to make memes so staying out of that conversation. For now a name I cannot pronounce
> *Metastachydium*


NAI; RP-ish approach, random vote, talking about memes. 



> Which apparently is a Chinese flower (Metastachydium) ...sounds like the perfect tool to kill a paladin with! 
> Can I just call you flower? You can call me Sir Thrashpanda!


NAI.




> You can choose, I'm raccoon that dabbles in magic Sir Blade, spelling is not my strong piont. The only important thing here is to find our Paladin's killer. And his faith perhaps.


NAI.




> Xihirli the Magnificent?
> Xihirli the Raccoon Hater?


NAI. (There was a reason I didn't originally quote these first few posts. Here now because I decided completionism was more important than that reason.)
_Go back to the start!_
*You made it to the jump point!*



> Jeenleen says that you're probably right and you immediately add them to the sus list?
> I like you, let's keep you unlynched for at least a couple of days just for the excitement factor 🙃


Tinfoil voice says "trying to do damage control against suspicion of consensus-town partner". Sensible voice says "it takes a lot of unjustified assumptions to reach that conclusion".




> Keeping my vote but lots of new info to go on after we get the lynch info. Persolus does seem very solvy. Like the Illven discussion.
> I'm sus for eating a carrot?
> I'm gullible because I'm eating someone else's words?
> You are concerned that I'm eating too much during the holidays? Fair concern.


I don't really like the first sentence; feels a bit "there's lots to analyse, but I'm just going to sit back and passively let the mislynch happen instead of doing any of it". Persolus townread is _shrug_ would need to check context but acceptable otoh. 




> This is what used to get me lynched D1 in three games in a row. I've actually made an effort of going through the top-5 post in an ISO way here, go me!
> 
> 
> The fun thing is that I hadn't noticed this and now I'll be looking at blade's lynch candidates and worrying about it if I have the same. It's a "tea in front of me" with myself  
> 
> 
> I love the memes. Still unsure about the quoted stuff. I get that Snowblaze is sus ... can anyone translate why exactly?
> 
> Also, why was Batcathat in the lead? Did I miss something suspicious? I'll look myself because of "participating"  .... bit wishy-washy and some solvy effort at the end. Doesn't scream wolf to me yet.


Okay, yeah, maybe some of what I'm suspecting is playstyle stuff. Trying to translate for AV is NAI, I think; the "why is X a wagon" tell is nullified by actually trying to find out.




Slight wolflean, tempered by not knowing Rakkoon and the things I don't like being attributable to playstyle just as easily as wolfiness.

- - - Updated - - -

AV, are you attempting to communicate your role and so want me to post my guess so you can confirm/deny it, or are you trying to keep it a secret and thus would like me to keep my mouth shut about my speculation?

----------


## Batcathat

> 


Yeah, I guess that could explain the sheer suicidalness of that play from a wolf otherwise. Now I'm not sure who my first pick for the lynch would be between Meta and Xi, though either would probably be helpful.




> 


I must admit a certain morbid curiosity about what memes you might post while under the influence.  :Small Amused:

----------


## Cazero

> If Benooj was corrupted they almost certainly would not have saved Caedorus, who has been mechanically cleared.


Excuse me, but if Benoojian is corrupted, they were offered an unique two-for-one pocketing deal on masons.




> Even the two they are vouching for?


Yes. I have no clue why they're vouching for them and I doubt they could have brought mechanical proof of their alignement.

----------


## Snowblaze

Reason I asked Cazero about townreads is the following:



> I tend to have the opposite problem, but I'm a gullible fool.


Which was in response to Allando's having too many wolfreads. So Cazero tends to have too many townreads. And yet they suspect everyone except the masons. 

To some extent that's probably related to the weirdness of this gamestate, but still... I'd expect at least _one_ non-mechanical townread. 

Eh, there's no way I'm voting outside Meta/Xihirli today so this can be a note for future reference.

----------


## Cazero

Maybe I'm a terrible judge of my own character? Did you think of that?

----------


## Snowblaze

> Excuse me, but if Benoojian is corrupted, they were offered an unique two-for-one pocketing deal on masons.
> 
> 
> Yes. I have no clue why they're vouching for them and I doubt they could have brought mechanical proof of their alignement.


I would not take that unique deal as a wolf, I don't think, though that's personal analysis and others might. Main reason Benoojian is town is because a wolf who can spare people from the lynch is... it neutralizes town's best way of killing wolves and in doing so makes the game absurdly wolfsided. And why would a wolf get a private chat with the lynchee before deciding?

Anyway, Benoojian is being vouched for because executioner and 3SC because he sent Allando a message with a convincing claim. Without having seen that message or claim I can't judge exactly how clear they are, but if the people who have think he's town then that's good enough for "don't reevaluate until and unless there've been multiple townflips in POE" in my book.



> Maybe I'm a terrible judge of my own character? Did you think of that?


Eh, possible, I guess. I may be projecting my hyper-self-awareness a little.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> I was feeling contrarian. Don't have concrete wolfreads yet.
> 
> It's a talking flower. You want to watch out for those. Clear sign of something in your water supply.
> 
> Caedorus because he was revealed. Allondo because of the mason thing.
> Everyone else I suspect of being possibly tempted.
> 
> There's only 3 options there :
> The executioneer is actualy corrupted. We should vote Benoojian.Xi got vortexed. We should vote somewhere else.Xi just lied. We should vote Xi.
> So far, I think the vortexed option is the more likely. Xi apparently knows Seer-privy info, even though their handling of it is mega sus.


Potential hedging here? Something to come back to after the vote and flip.

I can confirm with a high degree of certainty that Benoojian is not Corrupted. As Kraken already mentioned, saving Caedorus - a Narrator-confirmed townie - is not something a Corrupted would ever do. Not to mention Ben didn't even take credit for it right away. A wolf Executioner would step up and say 'I'm the Executioner, I tried to save Cae but couldn't' or would make up some other falsehood about their power being blocked or something. And I can confirm that it was indeed Ben who did it, because he used the same words that I used in my message to Allando (which got passed down the Mason chain to Cae). While it's possible that Ben is Tempted or Neutral, there is pretty much no way he's wolf.

As grating as I find the joking around though, I can see the possibility that Xi got vortexed here and she's telling the truth about being Seer. Then again, AV is arguing the other (see below). As I said before, I'm torn on the issue.

What I find interesting though are the options Cazero _isn't_ considering: that there could be a wolf among flat/Meta and people should be looking there. That pretty much solidifies my desire to vote *Metastachydium* - a flip there will determine whether we should be looking at flat (and potentially Caz) for wolfreads or if Snow is trying to pull a long con again.




> 


That meme is getting a lot of use, huh?

I don't disagree with you, AV. Xi dying and flipping today would help us solve that particular conundrum. That said, I think the Meta interaction may prove even more illuminating to the overall gamestate, so that's where my final vote is going.




> I'm in favor of voting whoever will give us the most useful information by their flip. Right now, that seems to be *Xi*.
> 
> I'm still not discounting the Executioner being tempted, and saving the life of a lynched townie allowing them to become corrupted. Same thing with Xi making what is seemingly a crazy play, even by her standards.


A genuine read of Xi and looking at Ben? Or a last-ditch attempt to save a fellow wolf? Two days in a row, no less.

My gut says the latter. But we will see after the flip.


Oh, and I used my boon today to ask Rogan a question (I get to ask the Narrator a specifically-phrased question regarding a specific plan a few times over the course of the game). The question I asked is: "How easy would it be to push a wagon on Meta at this point and are there any specific obstacles that would hinder such a thing? I.e. vote manipulation powers protecting Meta, people being saved by the Executioner, etc."

The answer I got was: "There is nothing which totally prevents a lynch on Meta. There are vote manipulation powers that will make lynching them harder. If they are selected for the lynch, they are very unlikely to survive. Currently, no confirmed townie has information about Meta. Other players might have or gain information on him, but I can't tell you how they will react."

There are a few ways to interpret what Rogan said, but the key takeaways I got are:

1) Meta either has a vote manipulation power or will be helped by someone else who has one. More wolfpoints, since it seems like that's traditionally a wolf ability (though it's hardly exclusive, so I could be wrong).

2) There are likely abilities to save people who get lynched. I would assume that Ben saved Caedorus from the noose yesterday and might be able to do the same for others (probably not every day, though). If it were true, it would point even more strongly to Town!Ben. This could mean that Meta can't be saved if a lynch goes through today, but it could also mean that the saviour(s) wouldn't save Meta even if they could.

3) 'No confirmed townie' doesn't mean much with only really 2-3 confirmed townies. I wouldn't expect Allando or Cae to know anything about Meta. But the fact that Rogan specified 'townie' could very well mean that wolves or tempted have information about Meta.

People, what are your thoughts on Rogan's message?

----------


## Rogan

*Vote Count:*
Xihirli: 7 (Caedorus, flat_footed, Allando, AvatarVecna, Benoojian, Rakkoon, Metastachydium)
Metastachydium: 6 (bladescape, 3SecondCultist, Snowblaze, Batcathat, Let'sGetKraken, Illven)
Batcathat: 1 (Cazero)
flat_footed: 2 (Xihirli, Grand Arbiter)
Sleep: 1 (Book Wombat)

I think someone requested one of those, and it's basically public knowledge anyway.
(Note: There is no specific meaning behind the order of the names)

----------


## Xihirli

*Unvote: Flat_Footed*
*Metastachydium*
Nothing personnel, kid.

----------


## rakkoon

> Oh, and I used my boon today to ask Rogan a question (I get to ask the Narrator a specifically-phrased question regarding a specific plan a few times over the course of the game). The question I asked is: "How easy would it be to push a wagon on Meta at this point and are there any specific obstacles that would hinder such a thing? I.e. vote manipulation powers protecting Meta, people being saved by the Executioner, etc."


Cool power




> The answer I got was: "There is nothing which totally prevents a lynch on Meta. There are vote manipulation powers that will make lynching them harder. If they are selected for the lynch, they are very unlikely to survive. Currently, no confirmed townie has information about Meta. Other players might have or gain information on him, but I can't tell you how they will react."


- Confirmed townie, hilariously put. That does indicate neutral/wolfie powers/normal townies know about Meta. That doesn't help
- Meta could be helped by people with voting powers. The fact that they may actually help is indeed wolf points. Assuming that there are no neutrals with those powers.
- Can Ben save every day or cool-off period? Can Ben save a wolf? Especially this last question is interesting.

- - - Updated - - -

@Snow, I get an ISO? Yay! I love attention! Anything in particular you would like to know? 
Again, I usually get killed D1 or 2 for talking about lots of stuff that is not solvy but fun. 

@AV I suggest from now on we always let you answer in memes. You're doing great. I bet they'll only get better when you are groggy. Seriously, I hope it will not  hurt too much.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> I would not take that unique deal as a wolf, I don't think, though that's personal analysis and others might. Main reason Benoojian is town is because a wolf who can spare people from the lynch is... it neutralizes town's best way of killing wolves and in doing so makes the game absurdly wolfsided. And why would a wolf get a private chat with the lynchee before deciding?
> 
> Anyway, Benoojian is being vouched for because executioner and 3SC because he sent Allando a message with a convincing claim. Without having seen that message or claim I can't judge exactly how clear they are, but if the people who have think he's town then that's good enough for "don't reevaluate until and unless there've been multiple townflips in POE" in my book.
> 
> Eh, possible, I guess. I may be projecting my hyper-self-awareness a little.


Agreed with Snow. Also, is pocketing town better than removing a soon-to-be mechanically cleared townie and also neutralizing someone else's boon (the mason partner)? I personally don't think so. 




> Potential hedging here? Something to come back to after the vote and flip.
> 
> Oh, and I used my boon today to ask Rogan a question (I get to ask the Narrator a specifically-phrased question regarding a specific plan a few times over the course of the game). The question I asked is: "How easy would it be to push a wagon on Meta at this point and are there any specific obstacles that would hinder such a thing? I.e. vote manipulation powers protecting Meta, people being saved by the Executioner, etc."
> 
> The answer I got was: "There is nothing which totally prevents a lynch on Meta. There are vote manipulation powers that will make lynching them harder. If they are selected for the lynch, they are very unlikely to survive. Currently, no confirmed townie has information about Meta. Other players might have or gain information on him, but I can't tell you how they will react."
> 
> There are a few ways to interpret what Rogan said, but the key takeaways I got are:
> 
> 1) Meta either has a vote manipulation power or will be helped by someone else who has one. More wolfpoints, since it seems like that's traditionally a wolf ability (though it's hardly exclusive, so I could be wrong).
> ...


*Unvote Metastachydium.* 

I don't think most of your response is indicative of Meta's alignment but the wording on that makes me cautious for my own reasons that I will share later. I might be reading too far into it, though. I will see how things develop before voting.  




> - Can Ben save every day or cool-off period? Can Ben save a wolf? Especially this last question is interesting.


This is absolutely not information we want wolves to have access to. Please do not respond.

- - - Updated - - -

I think a better question to be asking, though, is why 3SecondCultist would ask that specific question at this point in time. Care to elaborate?

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> Cool power
> 
> - Confirmed townie, hilariously put. That does indicate neutral/wolfie powers/normal townies know about Meta. That doesn't help
> - Meta could be helped by people with voting powers. The fact that they may actually help is indeed wolf points. Assuming that there are no neutrals with those powers.
> - Can Ben save every day or cool-off period? Can Ben save a wolf? Especially this last question is interesting.


I don't know any more about Ben - the rest would be speculation, and I don't feel inclined to rolespew more than I already have for wolfteam to pick their next target. That last question is NaGL, though.

Is that enough information for you to hop on over to the Meta wagon? Looking at the vote count, I grow increasingly concerned that Xi is not-Corrupted and the wolves will be able to squeak Meta through with a vote manipulation power. We only have a few hours left in the day.

- - - Updated - - -

I think the question itself is justified. I'm trying to figure out how likely/easy a push would be on a suspected wolf, and tease out who might be messing with the votes. The answer I got seems pretty indicative that we're looking in the right place.

As for the _timing_ of the question, I have my own reasons but I won't comment here right now.

- - - Updated - - -

Forgot to quote, last bit was for Kraken.

----------


## rakkoon

Sheesh, sorry I asked. Will ask after the game then.

Your opinion is that Xi is innocent because too many people are voting for her? So that would mean the wolves are in that bandwagon.

----------


## Persolus

Illven ISO

Right so that has been a _lot_ going on, so I've mainly just ignored it and worked through the promised ISO.
*Spoiler: Illven ISO part 1*
Show






> "My name is Princess Alexandria von Dragonstongue. Heir to the throne of the Tririver Kingdom. Though long I have slumbered. I awaken to find treachery afoot. One or more people intend to betray the royal line!"
> 
> The court with its blessed dice of truly call *Snowblaze* to the stand.


RP, randvote




> My wolf reads so far are Persolus for making a vote count and then screwing it up 
> 
> Caderous seemed a bit defensive, about Caz's reference.
> 
> Those are my wolf reads so far.
> 
> And no my vote won't change yet.


As stated, valid take on me. Goes straight at a townie, but doesn't vote





> Jeen Leen asked of our dice rolls equaled the starting population. I can confirm that they do.
> 
> Possibly dumb question, but if Allando and Caderous are RL siblings, what do we think are the odds that they are either both masons, or wolves?
> 
> Also Flatfooted, can I have the first letter of what was scrubbed from post 58, I need it for reasons.


Given the population numbers changing at SoD2, relevant mech. I believe Illven was the first to confirm this detail.
Proven correct on the guess.




> I actually have two more wolf leans.
> 
> Vecna as a slight one. While they mentioned they might do an all meme format, actually doing one limits communication which prevents the possibility of a slip up.
> 
> Ti as a more significant one. They were relatively quiet after bussing hard for 3secondcultist last game, I find it sus they are quiet again.


3 1/2 wolf leans (counting the Caedorus + Allando wolf pair from the previous post) and yet the vote is still on Snowblaze.




> How do you know pure townies are outnumbered? 
> 
> Were wolves given a total of corruptible targets?


Ha ha, very funny. Mech discussion that could make me look bad.




> It's less I'm off [COLOR = "INNOCENT"]Allando[/COLOR], and more I'm putting up more of my wolf leans. 
> 
> I think Avatarvecna NEEDING to post in memes is unlikely. They may get some sort of bonus for all memes, but I wouldn't call a boon with that requirement a boon. More like power at a price.
> 
> As for Ti. I've been told she's usually pretty hard to read as a wolf since she can play into her townie persona well. The only thing I noticed was after bussing you she fell silent.
> 
> Also add Persolus as one of my wolf reads


Ahhh yes, the "Allando" thing. The lack of clarifying still rubs me the wrong way.
Interesting that _now_ was when I become a wolf read.



> I have never played with AV beforehand. The one previous game I was in, Vecna was the narrator.
> It is possible that Ti has RL issues. Until we know those RL issues though all I'm seeing is radio silence.


In general, Illven tends to flip between "oh I'm extremely new here" and "I know a lot about old-timers". 



> I assumed it was me posting about the do I think [COLOR="INNOCENT"[Allando and Cad[/COLOR] are linked. Either being masons, or wolves.
> 
> Along with my eariler slight wolf read of Cad.


Official justification of why Illven claimed to be "off" Allando. 



> Is the man 3secondcultist, or me?
> 
> Cause if its me, she/her plz.


Understood!



> Let's see, between the four people with more then one vote.
> 
> Batcathat. I'm more inclined to trust them due to being my mason buddy in my last game, if I'm being honest. I get logic-wise it's a mistake, but emotionally I'm primed to trust them more.
> 
> Allando. While I think it's probably in some way they are linked to Caederous. I am unsure if they are wolf, mason buddies, or some strange wolf, mason pair like bladescape thought me and Bat were during our dance. 
> 
> Persolous Slight wolf vibes? Maybe?
> 
> Caedorous Has my strongest wolf vibes now.
> ...


Half of the wolf leans are on now-confirmed townies. Still no change of vote.



> I will probably move it off snowblaze, and onto Cae.
> 
> I have to go, I'll probably revote on my first break which will be well before EoD.


...enough time to say this, but not enough to make the move?



> *Caedrous*
> 
> Sorry still on mobile, can read but can't really long post either.


Follows through at last.




> So bladescape can delay posting a death flip?
> 
> Do they have any control to muddle a death flip? If so, how much can we trust flips?


Mech question that (since we appear to all agree that bladescape's gambit was at _least_ neutral, if not town) is relevant for both town and wolves.



> So info might be missing but unless Bladescape is the one who posts it, it should be correct.


This was in response to JeenLeen, our confirmed Corrupted, and fully agrees with everything said.



> Allegedly


Banter about mech.



> HA Joke's on you. Rogan said 22 hours from start of night!


Banter about mech.



> Who has two thumbs and called the pairing. This girl 
> 
> 
> Caedorous did you have a code to your Mason buddy? I tried looking for one, but couldn't find it. (I did so for every player which is why I asked the mod for the first letter)
> 
> Also were you in contact with the executioner?


Objectively correct, and explains the "first letter" question re: my post.
Again, a rather experienced move to do for someone new to mafia games?




> You need 10, and posts in this subforum dont count


Banter about forum.



> Ha. I remember when you thought the same about me and batcat


Banter about former game.




> The corrupted goal was stated with Jeenleen's post. They need to gain majority over living players if I am reading ot correctly. It does specify players though.
> 
> I am starting to sus Benoo as this sounds like another failure to read flips, like Batcathat.
> 
> I am however worried about if the game goes on enough and there's no more civilians, do the corrupted get mutlikill?


Accurate reading of flip, and calling out Ben w/o voting.
Mech question.



> Also my mistake. I meant to type like bookwombat. I don't know how batcathat got typed up.


Correction of previous post, valid.



> I mentioned last game I was in, a wolf failed to read the flip card. The wolf in question was bookwombat. I said it was batcathat by accident.


...a bit defensive?



> So what had happened, was book wombat was a wolf that when the alpha died, they asked how many wolves were remaining.
> 
> But one of the alpha's powers was to pick 3 wolves.


This is either completely valid context, or stress about not being 100% understood. not _strictly_ AI, but it is a trend.



> The sooner the better so we have more time to react to it.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Also also. My working theory on Vecna's boon, is they are a MEME VIGILANTE 
> 
> Vecna memes. Vecna thinks Vigilante is a meme. My theory is that they have the powers of a Vigilante as long as they continue to meme.


Banter about info.
Banter about mech (humorous).



> Caedorus, Allando, is this true?


In response to 3SC's request for clearing. 3SC was the one who instigated the "Allando" thing earlier, so it makes sense that Illven wants him cleared.




> However, I'll note that it doesn't preclude a serial killer with a certain amount of kills win requirement, which is something I've told is possible.
> 
> Since both town and corrupted don't actually need to survive to win.
> 
> If their is a serial killer though, that would prevent a survivor. Since that could potentially stop the survivors win condition.
> 
> I have no idea what you're talking about and tried googling it for an answer.
> 
> Googling says it's a relation to either drinking or Alzheimer's. In both case's no.
> ...


Mech banter, also interesting that Illven has asked about "SK w/ kill requirement".
Not cleared by whatever the Purple Elephant might be.



- - - Updated - - -

*Spoiler: Illven ISO Part 2*
Show





> You're right, my apologies.
> 
> As a close to noob question, what does an executioner typically do?
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, I get how you think they may not be cleared. But that's a far leap from "Hey, Masons are you SURE they cleared themselves." And immediately voting for them.
> 
> Also how do you get we need an explanation for purple elephant, directed at me, and assume 3secondcultist can help.


Again, flipping between "I am very new" and "I am doing experienced plays/reads"
Working hard to defend 3SC - starting to get a pockety vibe?



> Okay, question answered.


Banter on Purple Elephant



> Seer test being Xi screed them as corrupted?


Banter on Mech



> I'm still on mobile so short post. I'm actually less inclined to think Xi is a jester. If I'm reading the meme correctly I think Xi knew Vecna's role.
> 
> If that's the case based on Rogan's game info, I'm more inclined to think Xi was vortexed.


Banter on roles/mech.



> So on one hand, if they believed it was true then revealing AV's role might make AV more likely to agree with them.
> 
> Veterans, how often does AV test seer claims fatally?


Defending Xi, another "I'm new" question.




> Vecna and Xi can't be fools 
> 
> "However, as the narrator, I will not lie to you. If you receive an answer (including the results of power usages), it will be the truth." https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...26&postcount=8


Quite a change from two posts ago. From "less inclined to think" to "cannot be". Also interesting that jester is used above, while fool is used here.




> Alright, baby's first ISO, let's go
> [ISO...]
> However.... I'm going to vote *Meta* for now.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> 
> My thought is Let'sGetKraken is likely town. For reasons I don't want to reveal yet.


As a whole, _far_ vaguer reasons here for a vote than ones given day 1, albeit more volume.
Picking up the "let's be enigmatic" skill quickly!




> So I have a question.
> 
> If both me and flat are wolves, why would I ask them in public to tell me what they scrubbed from Caedrous?


Valid defense.



> Self scrubbed.


Valid. All relevant discussion around my post was done a fair bit ago.



> So you're not the seer's apprentice? 
> 
> Or did you target Xi with your boon?


Role banter at AV.




> The closest is a beast power, I think? 
> 
> But beast only targets one player. At this point in the game I don't think Xi would suicide bomb, cause it's way too early for that.


Again, showing understanding of not-necessarily-typical roles.



> No I'm saying I've never interacted with that power, cause this is my second game?


Yet you did know what the power was, and was able to explain it pretty well.



> Okay Ben, what is said power called?


Continuation of Paranoid Gun Owner banter.



> My concern about this, is Rogan said they would not lie. So I don't think they'd allow a boon that is "I'll lie about you."
> 
> I could see it, if Xi was also not reliably targeted able.


Defense of Xi.



> Can I get more details on this?
> 
> Rogan has provided.


Banter about _The Thing_, which we shall not discuss.


Okay, so as a whole - there is a _lot_ of banter that skirts around calling out someone as a wolf. Practically no direct contact between her and Jeen, or her and Xi, but I'm getting pockety vibes somehow?
This ISO took me far too long and only left me with a weird gut feeling, but hey, it can't hurt: *Illven*

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Sheesh, sorry I asked. Will ask after the game then.
> 
> Your opinion is that Xi is innocent because too many people are voting for her? So that would mean the wolves are in that bandwagon.


Sorry if that came across as harsh - it is definitely a relevant question but also definitely should not be one answered publicly.

----------


## Benoojian

> Okay, so as a whole - there is a _lot_ of banter that skirts around calling out someone as a wolf. Practically no direct contact between her and Jeen, or her and Xi, but I'm getting pockety vibes somehow?
> This ISO took me far too long and only left me with a weird gut feeling, but hey, it can't hurt: *Illven*


I have a mechanical reason to believe that Illven started the game as Tempted. The only action I see as potential trigger is voting for a townie that is chosen for the lynch. That feels a little boring for such a complicated game and also Cae didn't actually die. Illven has definitely been playing both sides a little but I'm not convinced they're evil *yet*. Unless you saw something odd in their actions that might be their conversion trigger?

Also I want to apologize for getting a little silly while posting last night. I was at a drag show and very drunk 🥴

- - - Updated - - -




> Even the two they are vouching for?


Oh absolutely, mine and 3SC's powers almost certainly mean we START as town, but neither of us have been Mechanically cleared between hero or tempted.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Illven ISO
> 
> Right so that has been a _lot_ going on, so I've mainly just ignored it and worked through the promised ISO.
> *Spoiler: Illven ISO part 1*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


With an hour left to go, voting for one of the two wagons (Xihirli or Meta) would be the best thing to be doing at this point. 

Points for Xihirli: might just be seer, which is a very powerful resource, with bad luck. Might also be a jester-like role (would be a fitting neutral) in which case we should not vote them and should quietly vig-shoot them instead. 
Points against Xihirli: tried to push the exe who saved town, outed AV. 

Points for Meta: some ISOs, I think? Mostly not voting Xihirli I believe. 
Points that a largely neutral but relevant for Meta: Cultist's plan and the possible intervention of wolf powers on voting.
Points against Meta: I have faint possible mechanical reasons for suspecting they're town but Rogan's wording is very vague.

----------


## Benoojian

I am willing to give Xihirli one last day in case they are a seer that got screwed over, but unless something very big happens I want them dead tomorrow. Xi, please don't say who you are targeting until after tonight because even if there is a Vortex we don't know if it is one that switches one person's target to a specific person or swaps everyone that targets two people.
Target Xi during the night at your own risk. The sheer giddiness with which she described all the info powers pointed at her disturbs me. If the boon is the Mechanically correct but utterly useless warning AV got then it might just be Xi enjoying chaos.
Unvote Xihirli
Meta

- - - Updated - - -

Actually do different target switchers have different shorthand on this forum or are they all Vortex?

----------


## Metastachydium

> *Unvote: Flat_Footed*
> *[COLOR="#FF0000"]Metastachydium[COLOR]*
> Nothing personnel, kid.


I resent the notion that my being small and pretty makes me younger than you and I think the word you're looking for is "personal", but slef-preservation on its own is hardly alignment-indicative. I'd probably do the same.




> Is that enough information for you to hop on over to the Meta wagon? Looking at the vote count, I grow increasingly concerned that Xi is not-Corrupted and the wolves will be able to squeak Meta through with a vote manipulation power. We only have a few hours left in the day.


So far as I can tell, that mainly hinges on the Blade/Snow tandem being right and call me biased (it partly boils down to my knowing things they either don't know or worse if they do), but their arguments so far strike me as lacking. Snow basically argues from behaviour, but she pretty much refused to meaningfully interact with my ISO from Utropia (her point of reference) or from here (courtesy of Ilven). Blade, in the meantime has been promising a succinct explanation of his BCH/me pet theory all day, but he's yet to deliver.

Meanwhile, they are aggressively vouching for each other (ostensibly based on meta) and managed to stride straight past Jeen day one, despite which Blade continues to act as if he's solved the game right after my first post.

At any rate, I think "if Meta dies, go us, regardless of Meta's alignment; if Meta doesn't die, Meta must be killed as many times as neccessary until dead, because only a dog would not die" is mildly put, a case of troll logic.




> Oh absolutely, mine and 3SC's powers almost certainly mean we START as town, but neither of us have been Mechanically cleared between hero or tempted.


Fair. You two are among the farthest things from chopping block material we have, however, and that's gotta matter for leans.




> Points for Meta: some ISOs, I think?


Quick reminder that the only ISO on me this game I can remember is Ilven's and it's inconclusive at best.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, and some legacy, should I die: for the reasons stated above (if it weren't obvious), when my flip fails to deliver the "here's the Evil dog we sniffed out" result they promised, kill Blade and Snow _****ing_ dead.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

*Bladescape*. 

I don't want either of these people wagoned at this point, honestly. But the fact that Meta has not claimed while under the gun is not a point in their favour, I would say.

----------


## Benoojian

> I'm still not discounting the Executioner being tempted, and saving the life of a lynched townie allowing them to become corrupted. Same thing with Xi making what is seemingly a crazy play, even by her standards.


That feels so wrong but technically correct that we were never told that the Tempted triggers have to be evil actions. It just feels really gross and screws up the theme if pro-Town actions turn you against Town.

So Xihirli's hypothetical trigger here is to be the first vote in a day on a Hero that is then lynched? Or something else you had in mind?

The selfish part of me kinda wants to kill Illven just to get some information on how the Tempted mechanics work, but I know that's not actually a good idea.

----------


## bladescape

*Xihirli*

If Xi flips wolf Kraken possibly also corrupted

- - - Updated - - -




> That feels so wrong but technically correct that we were never told that the Tempted triggers have to be evil actions. It just feels really gross and screws up the theme if pro-Town actions turn you against Town.
> 
> So Xihirli's hypothetical trigger here is to be the first vote in a day on a Hero that is then lynched? Or something else you had in mind?
> 
> The selfish part of me kinda wants to kill Illven just to get some information on how the Tempted mechanics work, but I know that's not actually a good idea.


Knowing Illven I don't believe they started today corrupted. No idea if they corrupted during the day.

Same goes for Snow.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> So far as I can tell, that mainly hinges on the Blade/Snow tandem being right and call me biased (it partly boils down to my knowing things they either don't know or worse if they do), but their arguments so far strike me as lacking. Snow basically argues from behaviour, but she pretty much refused to meaningfully interact with my ISO from Utropia (her point of reference) or from here (courtesy of Ilven). Blade, in the meantime has been promising a succinct explanation of his BCH/me pet theory all day, but he's yet to deliver.
> 
> Meanwhile, they are aggressively vouching for each other (ostensibly based on meta) and managed to stride straight past Jeen day one, despite which Blade continues to act as if he's solved the game right after my first post.
> 
> At any rate, I think "if Meta dies, go us, regardless of Meta's alignment; if Meta doesn't die, Meta must be killed as many times as neccessary until dead, because only a dog would not die" is mildly put, a case of troll logic.
> 
> Oh, and some legacy, should I die: for the reasons stated above (if it weren't obvious), when my flip fails to deliver the "here's the Evil dog we sniffed out" result they promised, kill Blade and Snow _****ing_ dead.


To be clear, I was not originally pointing at you - I do think there is a dog in you/flat based on vote movement and been trying to parse that based on posts back and forth today. I am coming to my own conclusions based on the posts I have seen so far. The case against you is pretty strong based on its own merits, your posts so far, and trusting the gut of other players as well as my own.

I mentioned this in my post too, but if you die and flip not-Corrupted Im absolutely turning my focus on Snow (& blade). Its not yay regardless of your death, its your dying narrows the POE the most between two groups of players. If you are indeed not Corrupted, then I am genuinely sorry for this. But your flip contextualizes a lot of peoples posts and votes for both D1 and D2.

----------


## bladescape

*Spoiler: Jeen Posts*
Show




> I see some answers to my "why Allando" question got posted while I was putting together my post.   3SC has a good point.  Snowblaze also makes a good point, and maybe lynching Allando first _would_ yield more info.  But I think (less sure now, but still think) I'd still rather test Caedorus and Allando by voting Caedorus first.
> 
> Now to truly focus on some real life stuff for a couple hours.





> Three questions:
> 1) can you put into words why you find Meta suspicious?
> 2) will you write those words to share?
> 3) if yes to #1 and no to #2, why not?
> 
> I don't actually expect a clear answer from you, but with how much you've mentioned Meta through the Day I'd appreciate one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> Been busy real life afternoon, so not really able to keep up and I also don't really get the Batcathat wagon piling up.  All in all, I'm still thinking Caedorus seems the most iffy of all the iffy folk.
> 
> *@3SC and AV:* I think AV's is trying to say she didn't offense and you misunderstood her.  Maybe the Youtube clip link wasn't meant to describe you, but someone else?   I've been fairly at a loss to understand a lot of what she meant.
> 
> 
> 
> This post made me laugh.







These are the posts where Jeen is all " I don't understand the wagon on BCH or Meta"

This is the Jeen stuff I've been referencing

- - - Updated - - -

Except he was actively trying to discredit my push

- - - Updated - - -

*Meta*

Hm. I am consider

----------


## Batcathat

I don't think anyone but me commented on it, so perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but one of the reasons I'm suspecting Meta is that despite being quite active D1 his only vote was his initial placeholder one. That said, he did give an explanation for it (even if I personally wasn't very convinced by it) and it's hardly a smoking gun.

----------


## Metastachydium

> These are the posts where Jeen is all " I don't understand the wagon on BCH or Meta"
> 
> This is the Jeen stuff I've been referencing


Seriously?




> Hm. I am consider


Man, at least finish that sentence.

- - - Updated - - -




> I don't think anyone but me commented on it, so perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but one of the reasons I'm suspecting Meta is that despite being quite active D1 his only vote was his initial placeholder one. That said, he did give an explanation for it (even if I personally wasn't very convinced by it) and it's hardly a smoking gun.


The Real Life Interference Clause is something I hold sacrosanct.

----------


## Persolus

Also @meta - did you have any more questions for me? The way you phrased it during N1 implied that you had more than just the "why are you more active?"

----------


## bladescape

> Seriously?
> 
> 
> 
> Man, at least finish that sentence.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> ...


Real life shouldn't ever be inferred as wolfy tbh.

And yes seriously. D1 Jeen was the one who spent the most time trying to discredit my push on you

----------


## Metastachydium

> Also @meta - did you have any more questions for me? The way you phrased it during N1 implied that you had more than just the "why are you more active?"


My priorities have changed and the answer removed one of my major concerns.

----------


## bladescape

There is a kinda dumb reason to townread Persolus but I like it

----------


## Metastachydium

> And yes seriously. D1 Jeen was the one who spent the most time trying to discredit my push on you


I.e. one post questioning a read you went out of your way not to explain.

----------


## bladescape

> I.e. one post questioning a read you went out of your way not to explain.


Two actually  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Batcathat

> The Real Life Interference Clause is something I hold sacrosanct.


Fair enough. I do think it's odd that you had time to post quite a bit, but never make a serious vote, but I do feel the same way about invoking real life and I don't know of anyone to have invoked it falsely.

Ah, screw it. *Xihirli*. 

(It also occurs to me that a lack of interest in solving might be more tempted that corrupted).

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Man, at least finish that sentence.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Two actually


Um, you only quoted one.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> I.e. one post questioning a read you went out of your way not to explain.


The fact that you have not claimed so close to the gun is really not a point in your favour. You could have potentially saved yourself.

----------


## Batcathat

> (It also occurs to me that a lack of interest in solving might be more tempted that corrupted).


To be clear, this is a misspelling of "than corrupted", not a suggestion about something that might've happened.

----------


## Rogan

*Day 2* ends now.

Please stand by for the resolution.

----------


## Xihirli

Alright before I die I think we should all raise our hands and state our conversion conditions.

----------


## Rogan

*End of day 2*
*Spoiler: Mech*
Show

*Spoiler: Vote History*
Show

Caedorus votes bladescape (1) 
bladescape votes Metastachydium (1) 
Caedorus votes bladescape (1) unvotes bladescape (1)
3SecondCultist votes Illven (1) 
flat_footed votes Metastachydium (2) 
Snowblaze votes flat_footed (1) 
Allando votes bladescape (2) 
3SecondCultist votes flat_footed (2) unvotes Illven (0)
AvatarVecna votes 3SecondCultist (1) 
Benoojian votes Illven (1) 
Cazero votes 3SecondCultist (2) 
Cazero votes Batcathat (1) unvotes 3SecondCultist (1)
Rakkoon votes Illven (2) 
Rakkoon votes bladescape (3) unvotes Illven (1)
Batcathat votes Metastachydium (3) 
Xihirli votes Benoojian (1) 
Let'sGetKraken votes Benoojian (2) 
Batcathat votes Benoojian (3) unvotes Metastachydium (2)
Metastachydium votes Benoojian (4) 
Rakkoon votes Benoojian (5) unvotes bladescape (2)
flat_footed votes Benoojian (6) unvotes Metastachydium (1)
3SecondCultist votes Benoojian (7) unvotes flat_footed (1)
Let'sGetKraken unvotes Benoojian (6)
Xihirli unvotes Benoojian (5)
3SecondCultist unvotes Benoojian (4)
Batcathat unvotes Benoojian (3)
Let'sGetKraken votes Xihirli (1) 
Benoojian votes Xihirli (2) unvotes Illven (0)
Xihirli votes Snowblaze (1) 
Snowblaze votes Metastachydium (2) unvotes flat_footed (0)
Illven votes Metastachydium (3) 
Batcathat votes Metastachydium (4) 
Rakkoon votes Xihirli (3) unvotes Benoojian (2)
Caedorus votes flat_footed (1) unvotes bladescape (1)
Allando votes flat_footed (2) unvotes bladescape (0)
Snowblaze votes flat_footed (3) unvotes Metastachydium (3)
3SecondCultist votes flat_footed (4) 
Grand Arbiter votes flat_footed (5) 
Metastachydium votes Xihirli (4) unvotes Benoojian (1)
flat_footed unvotes Benoojian (0)
Snowblaze votes Batcathat (2) unvotes flat_footed (4)
AvatarVecna votes Xihirli (5) unvotes 3SecondCultist (0)
Xihirli votes flat_footed (5) unvotes Snowblaze (0)
Snowblaze votes Metastachydium (4) unvotes Batcathat (1)
Allando votes Xihirli (6) unvotes flat_footed (4)
Caedorus votes Xihirli (7) unvotes flat_footed (3)
3SecondCultist votes Xihirli (8) unvotes flat_footed (2)
Book Wombat votes Sleep (1) 
Let'sGetKraken unvotes Xihirli (7)
Let'sGetKraken votes Metastachydium (5) 
flat_footed votes Xihirli (8) 
3SecondCultist votes Metastachydium (6) unvotes Xihirli (7)
Xihirli votes Metastachydium (7) unvotes flat_footed (1)
Let'sGetKraken unvotes Metastachydium (6)
Persolus votes Illven (1) 
Benoojian votes Metastachydium (7) unvotes Xihirli (6)
Let'sGetKraken votes bladescape (1) 
bladescape votes Xihirli (7) unvotes Metastachydium (6)
bladescape votes Metastachydium (7) unvotes Xihirli (6)
Batcathat votes Xihirli (7) unvotes Metastachydium (6)



*Spoiler: Vote Count (unmodified)*
Show

Xihirli: 7 (Allando, AvatarVecna, Batcathat, Caedorus, Metastachydium, Rakkoon, flat_footed)
Metastachydium: 6 (3SecondCultist, Benoojian, Illven, Snowblaze, Xihirli, bladescape)
Batcathat: 1 (Cazero)
bladescape: 1 (Let'sGetKraken)
flat_footed: 1 (Grand Arbiter)
Sleep: 1 (Book Wombat)
Illven: 1 (Persolus)



Taking into account all vote manipulation powers, this is the result:

*Xihirli*: 7
Metastachydium: 5
Batcathat: 1
bladescape: 1
flat_footed: 1
Sleep: 1
Illven: 1

*Spoiler: Xihirli*
Show

The Seer
You are the Seer, corrupted. You win when the corrupted gain a majority of the living players.
As the Seer, you know the true heart of the people. No mortal can fool you and you are cornerstone of this town.
However, if you look into an abyss for a long time, the abyss will also look into you.
Scry: Each night, you can target one living player. You will learn their alignment.
Looking Deeper: If you scry a tempted player twice, you will learn what could corrupt them. If you scry a neutral player twice, you will learn their victory condition.
Apprentice: You start the game knowing the identity of your apprentice.

Agent of Chaos (boon): You refuse to yield to any kind of orderly procedure. When you get targeted at night, the power will hit a random target (which might be you). The player(s) who targeted you will be told that 'Xihirli is too unpredictable to be targeted reliably'

They are not dead... yet.



"We charge the defendant with... murder, conspiracy to commit murder, vulgarity, sedition, impersonating a priest, trespassing, destroying valuable equipment, sabotaging our due process, assault on 15 unarmed persons, and parking illegally.
Does the accused have any statement in her defense?"

"Oh, I have a statement. To begin with, this case should never have gone to trial! The house didn't have a no parking sign in the living room. And we're losing sight of the big issue here, the question that's on everyone's mind. WHO WILL THINK OF THE CHILDREN? This town is totally unsafe, maniacs going about accusing others of murder, false attestations of visions. How many pointed fingers and attempts to string someone up were there today alone?"

"...You mean, besides the ones you caused?"

"You're just throwing suspicion away from the true culprits! I'd like to stand up Â stand up everyone, stand up! Stand up for all those trampled over by a justice system that kills those it finds too 'disruptive' or 'murderous!'"

"Does that conclude your statement?" 

"Eh, sure."

"You are sentenced to death by hanging."

"No, YOU'RE sentenced to death by hanging!"

"No, actually you are."

"The defense rests."

"Yes... you will."

Short drop, sudden stop.

*Spoiler: OOC*
Show

The fluff text above was provided by Xihirli. I hope you will enjoy it as much as I did.


Start of night 2 it will end in approximately 23:35 hours.

----------


## Caedorus

Av target meta, I'll do flat

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Agent of Chaos (boon): You refuse to yield to any kind of orderly procedure. When you get targeted at night, the power will hit a random target (which might be you). The player(s) who targeted you will be told that 'Xihirli is too unpredictable to be targeted reliably'





> Well I don't know why you received that feedback, AV. 
> What were your results, if you don't mind me asking?

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

Well, that's pretty damning. Glad I didn't vote for Meta after all. 

Do we think this is a situation where we need to vote Xihirli again, or do we think it's a delayed death trigger? If we can't reliably target them....

So this paints Cultist in an interesting light, given that they used their boon to try to divert a Xihirli wagon. And Bladescape as well, who pushed Meta quite hard. Though hey I wavered on Xihirli as well.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Av target meta, I'll do flat


*Spoiler: my power isn't a normal scry and I'm probably dead tonight anyway but...*
Show

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Av target meta, I'll do flat


Are you sure you're not tempted to pick me instead?

Edit: No wait your power works differently, nevermind!

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, also, any overlap between the people who voted for Persolus and the people who voted for Meta? Both have been one vote less. I wonder if that's related.

----------


## bladescape

> Well, that's pretty damning. Glad I didn't vote for Meta after all. 
> 
> Do we think this is a situation where we need to vote Xihirli again, or do we think it's a delayed death trigger? If we can't reliably target them....
> 
> So this paints Cultist in an interesting light, given that they used their boon to try to divert a Xihirli wagon. And Bladescape as well, who pushed Meta quite hard. Though hey I wavered on Xihirli as well.


I'm going to point out I was on Meta welllllll before Xi's wagon even became a thing.

I did waver to voting Xi at the end before swapping back but if you wanna sus me for that, go ahead? But my Meta wagon existed first so nyeh.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Well, that's pretty damning. Glad I didn't vote for Meta after all. 
> 
> Do we think this is a situation where we need to vote Xihirli again, or do we think it's a delayed death trigger? If we can't reliably target them....


Maybe it was Benoojian?




> So this paints Cultist in an interesting light, given that they used their boon to try to divert a Xihirli wagon. And Bladescape as well, who pushed Meta quite hard. Though hey I wavered on Xihirli as well.


I'm not worried about Cultist just yet. Also, your last line beofre EoD Was that a death threat?

- - - Updated - - -




> I'm going to point out I was on Meta welllllll before Xi's wagon even became a thing.
> 
> I did waver to voting Xi at the end before swapping back but if you wanna sus me for that, go ahead? But my Meta wagon existed first so nyeh.


Before it made sense, I might add.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

Huh. I genuinely did not think a Seer would be Corrupted, so colour me surprised there. I thought it would be an either/or situation, not somehow all of the above (Seer, Corrupted, and vortexing all true on some level). So Snow, which of the options would this fall under?  :Small Tongue: 

Nooooo clue who Xi could be partnered with, honestly. I need to go back and reread some stuff to see if Im even on the right track with any of this stuff.

Meta looks better now for sure - I dont _think_ it was a dog/dog day - but its still possible, just less likely.

----------


## Cazero

> Oh, also, any overlap between the people who voted for Persolus and the people who voted for Meta? Both have been one vote less. I wonder if that's related.


No overlap. I've been looking elsewhere.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Maybe it was Benoojian?


Unlikely, since we didn't learn Caedorus' alignment when Benoojian stepped in D1. 




> I'm not worried about Cultist just yet. Also, your last line beofre EoD Was that a death threat?


No, I just thought it was very interesting that you didn't claim to save yourself, even with such close wagons.

----------


## Benoojian

Oh God, if Seer can be Corrupted, then role powers have absolutely no predictive power. I floated the idea of town roles being tempted or corrupted but I thought Seer was sacrosanct.

So 3SC and I are only sort of clear then. Only the brothers have mechanical clears.

Also, did vote manipulation save Meta and damn Xihirli there or did I miscount?

----------


## bladescape

Also I can say for certain with that flip that Benoo is town, there's no reason for a wolf seer to call him corrupted.

...
...

Wait.

----------


## AvatarVecna

*Spoiler: I took the deal last night and it worked out for me*
Show

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Oh God, if Seer can be Corrupted, then role powers have absolutely no predictive power. I floated the idea of town roles being tempted or corrupted but I thought Seer was sacrosanct.
> 
> So 3SC and I are only sort of clear then. Only the brothers have mechanical clears.
> 
> Also, did vote manipulation save Meta and damn Xihirli there or did I miscount?


You're not mechanically cleared but you saved Caedorus, which is pretty hard non-mechanical proof. 

No, there was vote manipulation but just one vote taken away from Meta. 




> Also I can say for certain with that flip that Benoo is town, there's no reason for a wolf seer to call him corrupted.
> 
> ...
> ...
> 
> Wait.


I mean, when Xihirli claimed Benooj was *already* pretty much confirmed town from being outed as executioner. This doesn't make sense as a distancing play.

----------


## Caedorus

> *Spoiler: I took the deal last night and it worked out for me*
> Show


What deal /sussing

----------


## Metastachydium

> No, I just thought it was very interesting that you didn't claim to save yourself, even with such close wagons.


In hindsight, you do realize the dogs would have probs thanked me for that, don't you?

♣
Oh, and this is just in: you surely noticed someone tampered with my wagon (it wasn't me, but I digress); now, while it might not be immediately obvious, I have reason to suspect that _there's another_.

----------


## bladescape

> You're not mechanically cleared but you saved Caedorus, which is pretty hard non-mechanical proof. 
> 
> No, there was vote manipulation but just one vote taken away from Meta. 
> 
> 
> 
> I mean, when Xihirli claimed Benooj was *already* pretty much confirmed town from being outed as executioner. This doesn't make sense as a distancing play.


Yes. I was pointing it out while also being jokey because Benoo was pretty much already confirmed town and is just now confirmed _harder_

----------


## Cazero

> I mean, when Xihirli claimed Benooj was *already* pretty much confirmed town from being outed as executioner. This doesn't make sense as a distancing play.


Pretty sure Xi's claim is what outed Benoojian as exec. The only people who knew before that were the masons.

----------


## Caedorus

> Pretty sure Xi's claim is what outed Benoojian as exec. The only people who knew before that were the masons.


This is correct.

----------


## AvatarVecna



----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> 


Hope the surgery went okay!

Is how you knew about Benooj confirmed? We know you targeted Xihirli last night (unless you were lying). Remind me how you knew? Unless it's boon shenanigans you don't want to reveal.

----------


## Cazero

> Is how you knew about Benooj confirmed? We know you targeted Xihirli last night (unless you were lying). Remind me how you knew? Unless it's boon shenanigans you don't want to reveal.


It's boon shenanigans they did reveal here.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Pretty sure Xi's claim is what outed Benoojian as exec. The only people who knew before that were the masons.


My mistake, yeah. But that would still be a weird line of play, as AV points out, since the Executioner had already taken a very pro-town action and all Benooj had to do was claim publicly to get that towncred.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Mall Benooj had to do was claim publicly to get that towncred.


and paint a bullseye on his back in the meantime?

- - - Updated - - -

The question is, rather, this: if Xi did scry B., she knew he was the executioner and didn't have to risk her own skin to expose him; so why did she do that?

----------


## Cazero

Wich seem to indicate Xi and by extension the wolves didn't know Benoojian was the executioner.

- - - Updated - - -

Unless it's a complicated ploy to convince us of that, but that's a stretch.

----------


## Metastachydium

It's weirder still than that. If Xi didn't know he's a high priority target, throwing away an asset as strong as the dog Seer makes even less sense.

----------


## Caedorus

Maybe Xi could only get the alignment not the role?

----------


## Metastachydium

Again, that's sacrificing a Seer to take out a random townperson  not guaranteed to be a fair deal.

----------


## Benoojian

> and paint a bullseye on his back in the meantime?
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> The question is, rather, this: if Xi did scry B., she knew he was the executioner and didn't have to risk her own skin to expose him; so why did she do that?


This version of Seer only gets alignment, so Xihirli only knew that I was Hero (if they actually scried me and didn't choose a victim at random), not that I was the secret Executioner and had townies to protect me from a Seer Test. I don't understand why they thought trading one townie for an evil seer was worthwhile, but maybe they thought the vortex claim would save them for a few days. Which also explains the giddiness of trying to get everyone to target them, which would convince everyone there was a Vortex hurting Xi when Xi's boon was the Vortex.

So Xi was risking a trade in order to convince town not to trust any investigative results for the rest of the game if they got away with it. And they would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for those meddling Masons and their dumb Elephant.

----------


## Caedorus

> This version of Seer only gets alignment, so Xihirli only knew that I was Hero (if they actually scried me and didn't choose a victim at random), not that I was the secret Executioner and had townies to protect me from a Seer Test. I don't understand why they thought trading one townie for an evil seer was worthwhile, but maybe they thought the vortex claim would save them for a few days. Which also explains the giddiness of trying to get everyone to target them, which would convince everyone there was a Vortex hurting Xi when Xi's boon was the Vortex.
> 
> So Xi was risking a trade in order to convince town not to trust any investigative results for the rest of the game if they got away with it. And they would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for those meddling Masons and their dumb Elephant.


Thanks! 10!chars!

----------


## AvatarVecna

*Spoiler: Caedorus publicly announces that executioner let him live and is thus not corrupted*
Show




> I'm back!
> Ok I was saved by the executioner. Thanks!
> I would roleclaim but Rogan already did that for me.
> Oh, and, I am now ready to enact the plan I figured out with the executioner... Wait... Oh no, Bladescape, I forgot, Can you tell me again? Oh right, now I remember, I was going to vote *Bladescape* because they... Aren't the executioner! Real executioner asked to remain hidden to thwart the nightkill.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> I started the game with some info (sorry Aleph!):
> "When the Barman invites you to a drink or two, you do not refuse. Never!"
> ...





*Spoiler: I received an offering of info in the night and took the deal, then shared it first thing in the morning*
Show




> 





*Spoiler: Ben immediately subtly reacts to that; he knows I know*
Show




> Adding onto the knowledge that there are more neutrals than tempted. Every tempted has a unique way to become corrupted.





*Spoiler: I indicate that I've noticed him noticing*
Show




> 





*Spoiler: I realize I don't know if my info is truth or lies, so I ask the masons if I should vote Ben*
Show




> 





*Spoiler: Ben claimed, Rogan confirmed info true, and I saw Xi's scheme*
Show






> Originally Posted by Xihirli
> 
> 
> Good notes, good notes. 
> I happen to know that AV is _not_ the Vigilante, however. I suppose you could just say there's a certain... connection between us, I can just tell.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...





*Spoiler: I took the deal last night and it worked out for me*
Show




> 





*Spoiler: This whole thing makes more sense if Xi thought she was scried but she wasn't and couldn't know that so...idk*
Show

----------


## Metastachydium

> This version of Seer only gets alignment, so Xihirli only knew that I was Hero (if they actually scried me and didn't choose a victim at random), not that I was the secret Executioner and had townies to protect me from a Seer Test. I don't understand why they thought trading one townie for an evil seer was worthwhile, but maybe they thought the vortex claim would save them for a few days. Which also explains the giddiness of trying to get everyone to target them, which would convince everyone there was a Vortex hurting Xi when Xi's boon was the Vortex.
> 
> So Xi was risking a trade in order to convince town not to trust any investigative results for the rest of the game if they got away with it. And they would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for those meddling Masons and their dumb Elephant.


You're right. Still, even if the vortex claim had saved Xi, she'd have been neutered. I mean, how many times could she have come up with an excuse for why she couldn't help town with scries?

- - - Updated - - -




> *Spoiler: Ben claimed, Rogan confirmed info true, and I saw Xi's scheme*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Huh. That's pretty clever, actually. Thanks!

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> You're right. Still, even if the vortex claim had saved Xi, she'd have been neutered. I mean, how many times could she have come up with an excuse for why she couldn't help town with scries?


Thing is, she could have helped town with scries. She could have outed a neutral or a tempted or confirmed a townie, and gotten back in everyone's good books. So long as she doesn't expose a corrupted, she's in thr clear.

----------


## Benoojian

If Xi had gotten away with it completely somehow, we would trust only her, and be hunting for a Vortex so that we could trust her results again, but since she WAS the Vortex (or a Vortex, there still might be another) we would never find the Vortex we were hunting for

Even on losing, she reveals that roles are NAI and throws the game into chaos because even if we trust an investigative role, we can't trust their alignment based on their role so we mistrust all results for the rest of the game. And you all have been very clear about how much Xi likes chaos. It does _lightly_ suggest that none of the remaining Corrupted have roles that are trusted implicitly, but Xi may have assumed we would assume that so I don't put high confidence on it.

----------


## bladescape

Oh, and yes, if it wasn't obvious AV is also clear.

----------


## Metastachydium

I mean, every non-dog mech-cleared is bad for the dogs. The existence of tempted is about the only saving grace to a plan like that. But, like I said, AV's explanation makes the kind of sense that's consistent with Xi being Xi.

----------


## Benoojian

I did not actually know that you knew at that point, AV. I thought at that point that you actually got [redacted] and were pissed about only getting confirmation that Executioner existed as a role but not identity. I only figured out that you were protecting me much later.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> I did not actually know that you knew at that point, AV. I thought at that point that you actually got [redacted] and were pissed about only getting confirmation that Executioner existed as a role but not identity. I only figured out that you were protecting me much later.

----------


## Cazero

I just figured.
There's an evil Seer and a good Seer.
There was an evil Jailer. There might be a good jailer.
Can I be thrown in jail tonight? Wanna try something. Don't answer publicly.

----------


## bladescape

> I just figured.
> There's an evil Seer and a good Seer.
> There was an evil Jailer. There might be a good jailer.
> Can I be thrown in jail tonight? Wanna try something. Don't answer publicly.


This is a read.

Need a rollercoaster there friend?

----------


## Benoojian

> There is a kinda dumb reason to townread Persolus but I like it


What kinda dumb reason?

----------


## bladescape

> What kinda dumb reason?


It becomes dumber if I say it out loud.

(I'll reveal it if it becomes relevant.)

----------


## rakkoon

AV is on fire, town for sure.
Xi was wolfie, yay.
'Can someone throw me in jail please' is a hilarious request.

----------


## Book Wombat

Glad things worked out.

----------


## Snowblaze

Welp, looks like I might have been wrong about stuff. Apologies if so, Meta (though as I should know w/w wagons are still possible!)(and yes, I am actually going to reevaluate rather than just saying "oh, wagons were w/w, kill Meta). 

Going to take a complete break this night phase, I'd have pretty limited time anyway and it'll help me do a full reset D3.

----------


## Allando

> I just figured.
> There's an evil Seer and a good Seer.
> There was an evil Jailer. There might be a good jailer.
> Can I be thrown in jail tonight? Wanna try something. Don't answer publicly.





> *Spoiler: my power isn't a normal scry and I'm probably dead tonight anyway but...*
> Show


_Allando walked into the bar, where AV was sitting, drawing a cartoon and looking down.
"Hey, sup? Did you get a tooth pulled or something?" He lively asks.
"Well yes, but that's not the problem. This is probably my last cartoon, or one of them. The devil really wants my soul now. He knows I can see his, if only I know where to look. I may only be an apprentice, but..."
Allando sighs. "Don't worry. I'll stay with you. Those evil guys can't get past me."
"Didn't you have other places to be?" AV asks.
"No, multiple people fit in this bar, don't they?" He smiles._

----------


## AvatarVecna

*Spoiler: All Xihirli/JeenLeen posts, easy Multi-ISO viewing*
Show






> Eenie meenie miney.... you. * Rakkoon*





> Anyone have the time to check if the sum of our d6 rolls was 88?
> I can probably make time tomorrow if nobody else has already done the summation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Although I dislike the meme-posting and thus feel inclined to vote for flat_footed or AV, I find a vote shift this early in the game to be a tad suspicious.
> 
> ...





> Are we using noble titles?
> I dont have one.





> Stating some suspicion on Caedorus, but not voting him?
> If Caedorus flips wolf, this looks like an attempt at distancing while not wanting to vote your scumbuddy.
> 
> As for number of wolves, I'd think a low number since there is a way for Tempted to become Corrupted.   But it's hard to know for sure since we don't know the conversion rules.





> I do not hate raccoons I love them in sandwiches.





> bladescape suggests we look into his suspicions against Meta.  So I'm looking at both of their posts.  I think I found them all, plus some where other folk comment on the comments.
> 
> [...]
> 
> ...and I got nothing.
> Unless it's something with "Thrash"panda, but I reckon that's just a pun on "thrashing".   Is there another pun or meaning there I'm missing?
> 
> My guess is that bladescape is just poking to see if anyone squirms and he actually doesn't have legit reasons against Meta (except maybe a gut feel), but bladescape is hard to read.
> Or he has some intel from his role or boon that makes him suspect or know something.  Hmm... "Role" starts with R.
> ...





> I see some answers to my "why Allando" question got posted while I was putting together my post.   3SC has a good point.  Snowblaze also makes a good point, and maybe lynching Allando first _would_ yield more info.  But I think (less sure now, but still think) I'd still rather test Caedorus and Allando by voting Caedorus first.
> 
> Now to truly focus on some real life stuff for a couple hours.





> I'll concur with Batcathat that _something_ about Persolus' post sounds off.  Like he has too much intel on the actual counts of each alignment.  And my first thought echoed Illven's post.
> But after some more thought, I don't think this is necessarily indictative of any alignment; a power or boon might include intel on the distribution of alignments.  If it's a boon, NAI; if it's a power... I want to think more about if that power makes sense for a townie, tempted, or wolf.  I also want to think if it makes more sense for a townie, tempted, or wolf to want to state that publicly.
> 
> (In contrast, bladescape's ruminations on alignment (about 1/4 wolf, 1/4 tempted, 1/2 town) seemed like reasonable and rational _speculation_, and not nearly as confident as Persolus' statement.)
> 
> 
> 
> Most games have the narrator die at game-start.  If we want to test this via a lynch, D1 does seem the best time to do so because we have the least info to guide our votes.  But no lynch postpones us gathering intel.  In a bastardy game like this, I can see the logic of doing this, but not sure what I think of it.  I'd like to hear others' thoughts.
> 
> ...





> That sounds quite believable.  And I don't really see this as a thing it makes sense to lie about, so I'm willing to believe Persolus.





> I guess that's fair.
> But, yeah, so far Caedorus is the only person who rubs me the wrong way that I can't justify away.   Your post did rub me the wrong way, but your explanation is believable enough that I'm willing to buy it without other evidence against you.
> Today's been busy, but I hope to read back over D1 to better understand why some have other reasons for voting you (Batcathat's one of many things statement) or Allando (bladescape noting it was irrespective of anything with Caedorus).  
> 
> I don't have strong reads on most others.  There's a couple I have thoughts on, but I think one is on pretty silly reasons and, for the other, I worry my commenting publicly might bias results or tip my hat in a way I'd rather not do yet.  For both, I think it's better I stay quiet.





> Anyone know what Rakkoon post AV is "quoting" and responding to, or is Rakkoon really post a meme and I missed it?





> But if Caedorus KNEW that hed look wolfy if careful, hed have poisoned his own glass!





> I took the time to mostly reread the thread.  I got a bit tired the last page or two, so my reading comprehension started to fail about when heat started on Illven, but here's my thoughts as we near the last day of D1.
> 
> _Possible relationships_
> If Caedorus flips wolf, suspect Allando.  Maybe also suspect Persolus, as Ceadorus' main defender.3SC and Caedorus are not both wolves.  3SC and Allando are probably not both wolves.bladescape and Allando are probably not both wolves.  His vote on Allando put Allando in a hot seat.  Similarly, rakkoon and Allando likely not both wolves.  (Maybe they'd bus an ally D1 for towncred, so "maybe not" instead of a hard "not both wolves")<redacting some other thoughts as movements last bit of D1 might invalidate, and I'm too tired after rereading to know if it's just gut feeling, actual logic, or misreading/counting something.>
> 
> _Other notes_
> I get why folk think Allando looks suspicious regardless of Caedorus' alignment, but I still think Caedorus looks more suspicious.I'm intrigued by bladescape's suspicions.  I reckon there's something besides poking to see if folk squirm.I don't care for post 81 by Cazero.  I can understand players being quiet D1, but his post with little content amidst a lot of discussion feels like trying to participate but not really participating.Rereading it all, Persolus seems iffier to me than before.  Even though I buy his explanation for the Too Much Information about alignment distribution--even if he's wolf or Tempted, his rationale makes sense and it's an odd/pointless thing to lie about--something rings hollow in this posts overall.  And he plans to build an ISO against me, but then ISOs Illven instead?   Nothing solid against him, but some gut feelings.I kinda get but kinda don't get the heat on Illven.  Made a mistake, or didn't correct someone else's mistake?  The latter could be a townie not wanting to seem overly defensive and thus draw heat, or just she didn't initially notice it or care that much.  But, again, by the time I reread up to the Illven-heat part, it was late and I was pretty tired.  Seems the strongest (or at least most vocal) against her are Persolus and Snowblaze, with maybe 3SC with his mistake about Illven and asking why she didn't correct him.  I don't think I'll get a good handle on that until we know more from info-gaining powers or alignment reveals.  If someone wants to spell it out in a well-made paragraph, much appreciated.I'd like to hear comments on if lynching/vig-killing the Narrator would be pro-town, pro-Tempted, and/or pro-Corrupted.  Question was raised, but no real discussion.
> 
> I had two wolfleans I didn't want to share earlier, one from it being silly, the other from wanting others to talk first.  I don't see much point in mentioning the second yet, so I'll just tell the first.
> ...





> Three questions:
> 1) can you put into words why you find Meta suspicious?
> 2) will you write those words to share?
> 3) if yes to #1 and no to #2, why not?
> 
> I don't actually expect a clear answer from you, but with how much you've mentioned Meta through the Day I'd appreciate one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> Hmm, good point.
> *UNVOTE: Rakkoon
> 
> VOTE: Batcathat*. You know what you did.





> Oh. Darn, I was hoping you would, I forgot.





> Been busy real life afternoon, so not really able to keep up and I also don't really get the Batcathat wagon piling up.  All in all, I'm still thinking Caedorus seems the most iffy of all the iffy folk.
> 
> *@3SC and AV:* I think AV's is trying to say she didn't offense and you misunderstood her.  Maybe the Youtube clip link wasn't meant to describe you, but someone else?   I've been fairly at a loss to understand a lot of what she meant.
> 
> 
> 
> This post made me laugh.





> Info from the narrator might need to be read carefully to avoid misinterpretation, but he won't lie.  So if someone flips and it's clearly stating that that player name is that role and alignment, I think we can trust it.  However, as he plans to "try to avoid giving deliberately misleading answers", I'd think death flips will be safe OR be muddled to such a degree we can be sure something is missing.  I don't think we'll get something fuzzy where it's simply misleading.
> 
> I wrote up some comments about the death flip being delayed, but I think they'd be best saved until D2 starts.
> 
> ---
> 
> In some cult games, someone who was converted from town to cult dies with a flip like "Name, died Cult but started Town".  I wonder if we'll be able to tell the difference between original Corrupted vs. former Tempted.  
> Also, if a Tempted becomes Corrupted in the same Phase they die, would they flip as Tempted or Corrupted?
> *@Rogan: willing to shed any light there?*





> Or maybe not.





> That's basically why I had a slight wolflean (or, well, anti-town possibly Tempted lean) on Snowblaze D1.  That opinion persists.





> Good notes, good notes. 
> I happen to know that AV is _not_ the Vigilante, however. I suppose you could just say there's a certain... connection between us, I can just tell.





> Stop bathing in garbage all the time!





> Alright big announcement time
> 
> *SEER TEST.* *Benoojian*.





> Eh, doesnt seem like my brand. 
> I am the Seer, though. I can confirm by giving AVs role: Seers Apprentice. I know my student.
> 
> Aaaand fiiiiiiine. Benoojian lit up as Corrupted.
> I suppose its possible I was vortexed or voided or Im the Fool, though. Thats why the test.





> I will defer to my flower-headed colleague and decline.





> Okay hold up hold up.
> AV, if you are NOT the Seers Apprentice, or have any other strong reason to doubt my scry, go ahead and vote me.
> 
> If I got the wrong info on the Apprentice I think Im likely the Fool.





> Well, youre making me want to not kill a new player based on my scry with all your "This is bad Xi is lying" stuff. Could I get a little more than "its complicated"?





> Do we know for sure that Executioner is Town, while were at it?





> Alllllright. *Unvote: Benoojian* for now. I certainly dont want to upchuck death all over a first-time players game if we have reason to doubt the scry.





> I'm sure all the information-gathering powers aimed at me tonight will help us figure out what happened. That or you all killing me, I suppose.





> No. I absolutely despise doing the "direct quote from the narrator" thing and I'll die first.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think I have one beyond what I've said already.





> I'll go *Snowblaze* for ruining my tournament.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> 
> Its too gamey and meta for me. I understand that character choices are just flavor and were pretty much ONLY talking in the meta out here, but this feels a step further.
> Because Xihirli, the Seer didnt scry exact words I have tarot cards or a crystal ball or dragon bones.
> 
> And I never see how they prove anything, I could fake the exact words, you dont get to check my PMs. If you dont believe me you dont believe me and thats only a problem for me _if I fear death._





> I don't remember it like that.





> Wow, the mechanics of my stuff keeps getting weirder, doesn't it?
> 
> *Unvote: Snowblaze*
> Self-preservation vote on *Flat_Footed*.





> I don't know why AV couldn't target me last night.





> Well I don't know why you received that feedback, AV. 
> What were your results, if you don't mind me asking?





> We don't know that there even are Vortexes.





> Remember from when?
> Have I been markedly different of late?





> I _did_ reveal my results.





> Id just like to congratulate all my wolf buddies this has been a great bus. Really excited about every single one of you being considered lock-town from here on out just as we planned.





> I bet you say that to all the girls.





> Blade, you were in the clear! All my hard work to save you wasted!





> Ben, _shh_! You're totally blowing this for us!





> Gosh, Ben, buy me a drink first.





> *Unvote: Flat_Footed*
> *Metastachydium*
> Nothing personnel, kid.





> Alright before I die I think we should all raise our hands and state our conversion conditions.





*Spoiler: My thoughts on some stuff in there*
Show




> Stating some suspicion on Caedorus, but not voting him?
> If Caedorus flips wolf, this looks like an attempt at distancing while not wanting to vote your scumbuddy.
> 
> As for number of wolves, I'd think a low number since there is a way for Tempted to become Corrupted.   But it's hard to know for sure since we don't know the conversion rules.







> bladescape suggests we look into his suspicions against Meta.  So I'm looking at both of their posts.  I think I found them all, plus some where other folk comment on the comments.
> 
> [...]
> 
> ...and I got nothing.
> Unless it's something with "Thrash"panda, but I reckon that's just a pun on "thrashing".   Is there another pun or meaning there I'm missing?
> 
> My guess is that bladescape is just poking to see if anyone squirms and he actually doesn't have legit reasons against Meta (except maybe a gut feel), but bladescape is hard to read.
> Or he has some intel from his role or boon that makes him suspect or know something.  Hmm... "Role" starts with R.
> ...







> I see some answers to my "why Allando" question got posted while I was putting together my post.   3SC has a good point.  Snowblaze also makes a good point, and maybe lynching Allando first _would_ yield more info.  But I think (less sure now, but still think) I'd still rather test Caedorus and Allando by voting Caedorus first.
> 
> Now to truly focus on some real life stuff for a couple hours.







> Anyone know what Rakkoon post AV is "quoting" and responding to, or is Rakkoon really post a meme and I missed it?







> I took the time to mostly reread the thread.  I got a bit tired the last page or two, so my reading comprehension started to fail about when heat started on Illven, but here's my thoughts as we near the last day of D1.
> 
> _Possible relationships_
> If Caedorus flips wolf, suspect Allando.  Maybe also suspect Persolus, as Ceadorus' main defender.3SC and Caedorus are not both wolves.  3SC and Allando are probably not both wolves.bladescape and Allando are probably not both wolves.  His vote on Allando put Allando in a hot seat.  Similarly, rakkoon and Allando likely not both wolves.  (Maybe they'd bus an ally D1 for towncred, so "maybe not" instead of a hard "not both wolves")<redacting some other thoughts as movements last bit of D1 might invalidate, and I'm too tired after rereading to know if it's just gut feeling, actual logic, or misreading/counting something.>
> 
> _Other notes_
> I get why folk think Allando looks suspicious regardless of Caedorus' alignment, but I still think Caedorus looks more suspicious.I'm intrigued by bladescape's suspicions.  I reckon there's something besides poking to see if folk squirm.I don't care for post 81 by Cazero.  I can understand players being quiet D1, but his post with little content amidst a lot of discussion feels like trying to participate but not really participating.Rereading it all, Persolus seems iffier to me than before.  Even though I buy his explanation for the Too Much Information about alignment distribution--even if he's wolf or Tempted, his rationale makes sense and it's an odd/pointless thing to lie about--something rings hollow in this posts overall.  And he plans to build an ISO against me, but then ISOs Illven instead?   Nothing solid against him, but some gut feelings.I kinda get but kinda don't get the heat on Illven.  Made a mistake, or didn't correct someone else's mistake?  The latter could be a townie not wanting to seem overly defensive and thus draw heat, or just she didn't initially notice it or care that much.  But, again, by the time I reread up to the Illven-heat part, it was late and I was pretty tired.  Seems the strongest (or at least most vocal) against her are Persolus and Snowblaze, with maybe 3SC with his mistake about Illven and asking why she didn't correct him.  I don't think I'll get a good handle on that until we know more from info-gaining powers or alignment reveals.  If someone wants to spell it out in a well-made paragraph, much appreciated.I'd like to hear comments on if lynching/vig-killing the Narrator would be pro-town, pro-Tempted, and/or pro-Corrupted.  Question was raised, but no real discussion.
> 
> I had two wolfleans I didn't want to share earlier, one from it being silly, the other from wanting others to talk first.  I don't see much point in mentioning the second yet, so I'll just tell the first.
> ...









> Three questions:
> 1) can you put into words why you find Meta suspicious?
> 2) will you write those words to share?
> 3) if yes to #1 and no to #2, why not?
> 
> I don't actually expect a clear answer from you, but with how much you've mentioned Meta through the Day I'd appreciate one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...







> Been busy real life afternoon, so not really able to keep up and I also don't really get the Batcathat wagon piling up.  All in all, I'm still thinking Caedorus seems the most iffy of all the iffy folk.
> 
> *@3SC and AV:* I think AV's is trying to say she didn't offense and you misunderstood her.  Maybe the Youtube clip link wasn't meant to describe you, but someone else?   I've been fairly at a loss to understand a lot of what she meant.
> 
> 
> 
> This post made me laugh.







> That's basically why I had a slight wolflean (or, well, anti-town possibly Tempted lean) on Snowblaze D1.  That opinion persists.







> Alright big announcement time
> 
> *SEER TEST.* *Benoojian*.







> Wow, the mechanics of my stuff keeps getting weirder, doesn't it?
> 
> *Unvote: Snowblaze*
> Self-preservation vote on *Flat_Footed*.

----------


## Snowblaze

_Visiting the bar hadn't worked out too well for the woman in white last night, so she refrained this time. It didn't stop her from having a pounding headache.

The Seer was evil, gods damn it. She shouldn't even be surprised any more, there'd been enough evidence that this town was breaking all the rules. But still. Seers were never evil. It was a fact of life, and you couldn't forget that kind of knowledge overnight.

What was worse, though, was that gods-forsaken Flower. Not only was it stubbornly refusing to die like it should, it was poking its leaves into places where it had no business -

Oh. "No," she whispered. "Please, no." The fates wanted her to be the hero who saved this town. And heroes had snarky animal companions, didn't they? Well, it seemed the fates had bestowed a snarky plant companion upon her. The mutual hatred was just the fuel for a fire-forged friendship between - "Gods, what have I done to deserve this?"_

----------


## AvatarVecna

*Spoiler: I should really do a blade ISO*
Show

*Spoiler: Convoy VI, midgame*
Show




> But the glory of being a vanilla townie is that by being loud, you have less for town to lose when you expire. Sure, there is the chance you get offed earlier than you were expecting, and having to stop playing kinda sucks, but in a funny kind of way, it's the vanillagers that are the most powerful: they are expendable. Your words in death all of a sudden carry a greater weight. That is your power. Because you are guessing and probing to find the cracks in the defenses of the





> Logic's been cut off mid-sentence. The bears got him!





> I was typing out several responses at once in a single post while cooking dinner. I must have been interrupted and edited an error I found in an earlier section.





*Spoiler: Post-game*
Show




> For all of you to ponder, I made a SIGNIFICANT mistake at one point.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by Logic
> 
> ...








> Originally Posted by Metastachydium
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by bladescape
> ...





- - - Updated - - -




> I'm somewhat divided on the meme posting. On one hand, I feel like roughly 98 percent of memes are unfunny (they might have been funny at some point, but then they were used five billion times) but on the other hand I kind of want AV to stay alive long enough to attempt an all-meme ISO.




*Spoiler: Batcathat ISO*
Show

*Spoiler: Part 1*
Show




> I'm assuming the explicit unvoting is only required when you're only unvoting and not voting for someone else right away, though I might be wrong.





> This seems to be the wrong shade of red. 
> 
> That said, I'm not sure if it actually matters. *@Rogan:* How particular are you with things like that?
> 
> As for the actual wolf hunt, I'm not having any strong feelings at the moment, other than some weak-even-for-D1 town leans.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Unless I'm mistaken, we have a five-way tie for first place and a ten-way tie for second (or should that be sixth?) place. At least there are plenty of options.





> Finally got around to rereading (well, reskimming, at least) the thread, so here are some random comments. Nothing really new in either direction as far as reads are concerned. 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm always a little suspicious when people feel the need to explain or justify their placeholder votes, but it's very, very minor wolf points at the most.
> 
> 
> 
> See above.
> ...





> Do you mean by number of votes? Because even after your vote, I have Meta at two and you and Persolus at three each.





> We're getting close to 24 hours since Rogan's announcement that there was approximately that much time left. I'm guessing it'll be longer than that, but if anyone's planning to change their vote, it might be a good idea to do it pretty soon, to be on the safe side.





> The numbers seems right, but I have Xi voting for me and Rakkoon voting for Allando.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> So Allando should also be at two votes (assuming I'm right.  )





> I have them at three each (AV, Snow and blade on Meta, you, me and Caedorus on Persolus), though I might've missed some recent change.





> One of AV's games (Afterlife 3, I think?) was sort of like that (AV wasn't the only wolf, but killing the narrator was necessary to win the game). It's not impossible that Rogan's doing something similar, but I think it's less likely.





> I had an idea that those represented the dead player's "own" NPCs based on their dice rolls, but Jeen rolled a 6 and Ti a 4, so that doesn't seem to be it (or I'm at least missing some variable).





> Someone said it did, at least. Though I haven't double-checked.







*Spoiler: Part 2*
Show




> If you pardon my mixed metaphor, this really rubs my wolfdar the wrong way. It's not much (and barely anything at all) but lacking anything better at the moment, let's go with *Persolus*. When I have the time, I should go over Persolus' posts and see if there's anything more than my gut to support it.





> Huh. That might actually be the most plausible explanation for it (though I'm not sure why you think wolves would automatically be more likely than some other connection). My gut is still more suspicious of Persolus, but it might make more sense to lynch Illven or Cultist, if there's a reasonable chance of catching two wolves for the price of one. It's late here, so I'll have to save any rereading and rethinking for tomorrow and I'd love to hear anyone else's thoughts on it.





> With Caedorus being the front runner, I decided to start my rereading there. There was a certain... over-explainyness that kind of rubbed me the wrong way, but that could be a personality thing rather than an alignment thing. Can anyone on that wagon sell me on it?





> I don't really have one beyond what's already been discussed, Persolus would be my first pick for gut reasons but I'm considering Illven or Cultist, since if one of them flips wolf there's probably a decent (well, higher than pure chance, at least) possibility the other one does as well. I'm still hoping to read through everything again before EoD, so hopefully I'll find something new then.





> Sort of? I don't have any reasons  mechanical or otherwise  for trusting him more than I've already said (to sum up, I'm generally leaning slightly town on him and while the last minute vote switch is troubling I think it would be better to go after Meta first and evaluate flat based on that).





> One thought after Jeen's flip (and I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on it), does it make Persolus look less wolfy (since Jeen "agreed" that Persolus' post looked suspicious) or more wolfy (since Jeen was very easily "persuaded" by Persolus' explanation)?







*Spoiler: Part 3*
Show




> Hmm, good point.
> *UNVOTE: Rakkoon
> 
> VOTE: Batcathat*. You know what you did.





> Not really, no. 
> 
> Anyhow, I do agree with the general idea of having the votes spread a little less thin (especially now that I'm top wagon again). Though out of the obvious options, the only one I'm actually actively suspecting is who I'm already voting, so it'd be neat if anyone felt like joining me on the Persolus wagon (or presenting a good case for someone else). 
> 
> Does anyone know what the tie rules are, by the way?





> Oh. Darn, I was hoping you would, I forgot.







> Something about Snowblaze's RP rubs me the wrong way.  I'm usually loathe to vote someone for RP, but her RP feels of one who has chosen evil.  That'd be a silly reason in most games, but, in this one, maybe it's a method for converting.  This is the "silly reason" for a wolf-lean I have on a person.  Or, if not wolf yet, Tempted.
> As I reread, though, it occurs to me that she talked about her wolf playstyle a lot.  Albeit in response to others, but more than she had to and that seems odd, as it draws to mind thinking of her as a wolf.  Her talking about her wolfgame so openly kinda makes me think a wolf doing a bold WIFOM, in that why would a wolf talk about being a wolf.  And I think I've seen Snowblaze be a very bold wolf in the past.
> 
> I would call her conversation towny, but as she herself has noted, she can do that as a wolf or anti-town neutral.
> Also, in post 70, LetsGetKraken kinda defends Snowblaze.  Something to remember if Snow flips Corrupted.





> Is it paranoid if I think that might be a kinda clever way to RP a currently uncorrupted tempted?





> That's basically why I had a slight wolflean (or, well, anti-town possibly Tempted lean) on Snowblaze D1.  That opinion persists.







> (Though if any townie messed with Xi and or Benoojian last night in a way that might've screwed something up, it might be a good idea to speak up, so we don't end up killing two townies).





> I suppose its possible I was vortexed or voided or Im the Fool, though. Thats why the test.





> While possible, I doubt a wolf would fake a claim like that so early in the game. I could see it being done if the wolves only needed a little more time to win, but in this case they would basically have traded Xi's life for yours (because if you flip town and no one admits to having redirected her power or something, I'm fairly certain she'll die). 
> 
> That said, if Xi can back up her claim with some information that wouldn't benefit the wolves, that probably can't hurt.





> While this is worrying, I can't think of any reason why a lying Xi would include the piece about you if it wasn't true, since that wasn't really necessary for the claim about Benoojian. Or are you really the Seer's Apprentice but you mistrust Xi for some other reason?





> *Spoiler: Post title was "I distrust Xi *because* she outed me, not despite it"*
> Show





> So are you suggesting that after we lynch you (and you flip town), we'd lynch Xi (and she flips wolf), we'd continue by lynching AV based on something Xi said?





> If I got the wrong info on the Apprentice I think Im likely the Fool.





> Good catch. Though I wonder whether that covers something like a vortexer switching things around?





> I think for the moment I'm just going to ignore all the seer chaos and go back to *Metastachydium*.





> As for Xi, I think it's more likely that she's either townie whose power got messed with, some sort of neutral or a tempted (possibly trying to get corrupted) than a wolf, though her flip might clear things up in any case, so I'm not very opposed to that wagon.





> Yeah, I guess that could explain the sheer suicidalness of that play from a wolf otherwise. Now I'm not sure who my first pick for the lynch would be between Meta and Xi, though either would probably be helpful.





> Fair enough. I do think it's odd that you had time to post quite a bit, but never make a serious vote, but I do feel the same way about invoking real life and I don't know of anyone to have invoked it falsely.
> 
> Ah, screw it. *Xihirli*. 
> 
> (It also occurs to me that a lack of interest in solving might be more tempted that corrupted).











*Spoiler: Part 4*
Show




> Just general thoughts or about something specific that I'm missing? Assuming it's the former, I would say Aleph does seem to be jumping to conclusions (or at least to suspicions) based on rather shaky evidence, but doing that as a townie is something that I'm... somewhat familiar with, so probably not suspicious in itself. 
> 
> I did have the same thought about AV's meme posts before remembering they talked about doing that before the roles were assigned (though I'm not completely ruling out the possibility of Rogan giving AV a boon based on it).





> Yeah, I know better than most that people have an unfortunate tendency to equate uncertainty with wolfiness and in return I'm probably a little extra suspicious about people seeming too confident, but in this case it was only one of several things, so while I congratulate you on your rising confidence, I'm leaving my vote where it is.





> Not sure what to think about the Illven/Allando thing. It's weird, but I don't see what the wolfy motivation would be. If Illven is a wolf and Allando town, it seems like she'd want to distance herself from a possible mislynch, not just assume she had said something she hadn't. I suppose I could see them being wolf buddies who talked about one going after the other and Illven forgot it hadn't happened yet. But what would that make Cultist? A third buddy who also forgot that Illven hadn't accused Allando yet? A townie who made an honest mistake that just happened to line up with what the wolves had planned? This makes even less sense as I'm writing it out. 
> 
> Of course, as I'm fond of reminding myself roughly four times every game, just because I can't see a wolfy motivation for something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

----------


## Illven

So that's hilarious.

Can someone describe Lloa?

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

I can't believe I wanted a vig to shoot AV, this is fantastic.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> So that's hilarious.
> 
> Can someone describe Lloa?

----------


## Batcathat

> 


Of the many ISOs you've made suspecting me, this is at the very least the most colorful one. So do I get three more wishes for you to fulfill in some suitably ironic fashion?  :Small Wink:

----------


## AvatarVecna

*Spoiler: Let'sGetKraken ISO*
Show

*Spoiler: Makes me nervous*
Show




> We absolutely test Benooj right now, based on information as given.
> 
> Though it's important to note that it's quite likely that either some tempted or even corrupted (based on Jeen's flip) have town-like powers. As such, someone being a Mason or Seer or Vig is not *on its own* evidence of being town. If Benooj flips Corrupted, then Xihirli is pretty much 100% town (I know I have ruthlessly bussed partners in the past but this would be an extreme move).







> And if we don't test you now, what exactly are our alternatives? The one seer claim we have - our mechanism for testing people - is the person you are casting suspicion on. Waiting doesn't provide us with any information and just delays the info we get from your flip, which is the only real way we have of corroborating Xihirli's claim. My vote stays where it is for now, you're the best candidate for a wagon.
> 
> The other options here is that Xihirli is being her normal self and is infact not being straightforward, and is trying to trap someone into revealing information, and made up the whole thing. But unless Xihirli comes forward and indicates it, the most likely scenario is that you're corrupted.





> Ninja'd. Okay. *Xihirli*. Though I am open to other wagons. I'm feeling Neutral Jester, honestly.





> As (theoretically) Seer's apprentice, did you receive anything as to their alignment?
> 
> Given what flat shared, are they still a viable wagon here?


*Spoiler: for context*
Show




> Removing the Xi insanity, my vote was on Meta which I removed more or less for the seer claim. I'll have to go back and read, but if I had to place a vote now it would be on Meta still with a strong lean towards Xi, pending further read of their initial claim and the fallout. Even with just 1 of 4 factions actively anti-town, the neutrals can win with either side and the Tempted can make the switch if and when they satisfy their conversion requirements. Gun to my head, I'd say Xi is Tempted with all this possibly coinciding with their way to become Corrupted. Definitely not discounting the Jester discussion though.










> This is supreme trolling and I cannot believe no one else is picking up on it. This is more like the Xihirli I remember.





> Re: Xihirli, can those players with more experience chime in? While I'd like to think that town!Xihirli would try harder to save herself with such a powerful information-gathering role, I'm not sure if that's actually the case - and I agree that her flipping town wouldn't be particularly helpful. 
> 
> *Unvote Xihirli* for now.





> That didn't stop you as SK! 
> 
> I am fine with voting *Metastachydium*. (I hope that autocorrect is legit). I am still hella suspicious of Xihirli but I'm worried that offing the actual seer might be a bad play.
> 
> 
> 
> To be clear, Xi doesn't have seer-privy info. Xi has information on AV's role. Those are two very different things. 
> 
> If Benooj was corrupted they almost certainly would not have saved Caedorus, who has been mechanically cleared. Which is why Xi is deeply suspicious but should probably have one more round to prove their innocence, after sleeping on it. I just don't know why Xi would take such a bold play so early in the game as a wolf.





> Points for Xihirli: might just be seer, which is a very powerful resource, with bad luck. Might also be a jester-like role (would be a fitting neutral) in which case we should not vote them and should quietly vig-shoot them instead. 
> Points against Xihirli: tried to push the exe who saved town, outed AV.





> *Bladescape*. 
> 
> I don't want either of these people wagoned at this point, honestly. But the fact that Meta has not claimed while under the gun is not a point in their favour, I would say.





> Well, that's pretty damning. Glad I didn't vote for Meta after all. 
> 
> Do we think this is a situation where we need to vote Xihirli again, or do we think it's a delayed death trigger? If we can't reliably target them....
> 
> So this paints Cultist in an interesting light, given that they used their boon to try to divert a Xihirli wagon. And Bladescape as well, who pushed Meta quite hard. Though hey I wavered on Xihirli as well.







> Thing is, she could have helped town with scries. She could have outed a neutral or a tempted or confirmed a townie, and gotten back in everyone's good books. So long as she doesn't expose a corrupted, she's in thr clear.





*Spoiler: Unsure how to feel about this snow progression*
Show




> Rakkoon- snow is literally always solvy. Snow being solvy is NAI (not alignment indicative). I watched her earnestly solve D1 as a serial killer.





> I am not saying Snow is not a wolf. I am saying that Snow being solvy is not indicative of alignment. If she is pinging suspiciously to people, that's fine, but I was responding to a comment about how she was being very solvy and therefore town - which is absolutely not the case on it's own.





> I'm sorry Snow - I respect the meta of trying to solve D1 and understand the value of it later in the game, but until we get more information to work off of I simply do not have the energy to put into poring through 150 messages of largely nothing looking for detailed inconsistencies across 21 players.





> Snow is still giving off bad vibes.





> Snow, will get something together when I am at my computer but keep in mind that it was a gut read. I felt like you were being more hedgy than usual and it felt off. I will reread your comments and see how I feel.





> For the record snow this is the exact sort of thing that is gutpinging you as not town for me. There's basically nothing of substance in this post, and it feels like you've had more than a couple of those so far.





> You have, don't mean to imply like you haven't been contributing. But there have been a few posts which are more.... surface-level solvy, I think? You have a reputation for being incredibly solvy that you need to maintain, and my gut is saying that posts like these might be trying to maintain that level in between more rigorous solvy stuff. Apologies if I'm wrong, of course. I have been pinned by purry cat for the past 3.5 hours but when I get to my computer I will try to see if this gut feeling can be substantiated.





> Okay, since I did promise to substantiate this, here's an ISO on Snow's earlier posts to see whether or not my gut read of "Wasn't as substantively solvy early" was valid. 
> *Spoiler: Snow's comments for the first three pages*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...








- - - Updated - - -

*Spoiler: Bonus Round of people asking for my scry results*
Show




> So you're not the seer's apprentice? 
> 
> Or did you target Xi with your boon?





> Well I don't know why you received that feedback, AV. 
> What were your results, if you don't mind me asking?





> Yes, I'd like to know what was received, even if it may not be reliable.





> Where's AV to make a meme when you need it?
> 
> Xihirli testing out a seer claim -> I sleep
> Xihirli adamantly denying revealing their results out of principle, just to ask someone else for their results on the next page -> I wake
> 
> Or maybe the other way around? You get the point. This is the chaos energy I expect from you.





> Is how you knew about Benooj confirmed? We know you targeted Xihirli last night (unless you were lying). Remind me how you knew? Unless it's boon shenanigans you don't want to reveal.







- - - Updated - - -

*Spoiler: flat_footed ISO*
Show




> If Day 1 is any example, we'll have to wait until Day 3 for the flip, meaning Night 2 may still be in a bit of turmoil depending on what Xi is or is not willing to say.
> 
> Come to think of it, a Town-aligned executioner who can hand wave the lynch seems a bit overpowered if it's more than once. I wonder if any of the Tempted's path to Corrupted involves doing something seemingly pro-Town.





> Removing the Xi insanity, my vote was on Meta which I removed more or less for the seer claim. I'll have to go back and read, but if I had to place a vote now it would be on Meta still with a strong lean towards Xi, pending further read of their initial claim and the fallout. Even with just 1 of 4 factions actively anti-town, the neutrals can win with either side and the Tempted can make the switch if and when they satisfy their conversion requirements. Gun to my head, I'd say Xi is Tempted with all this possibly coinciding with their way to become Corrupted. Definitely not discounting the Jester discussion though.





> It may have been a result of Xi's boon, "Anyone targeting you will additionally be told you cannot be reliably targeted". I could almost buy this as Xi's boon from Rogan, and sent in an effort to not have this be a bastard game with unreliable results from a reliable power.







> I'll also say this is the first I've heard of a retribution power that could affect more than one other player.







> Yes, I'd like to know what was received, even if it may not be reliable.







> Illven, are you able to confirm being Corrupted? If so, what is your requirement to become Corrupted? Even though you are technically town, conversion powers have a way of tilting the game into the wolves' favor.







> That's Xi in a nutshell. Her chaos is known far and wide here.







> I'm in favor of voting whoever will give us the most useful information by their flip. Right now, that seems to be *Xi*.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still not discounting the Executioner being tempted, and saving the life of a lynched townie allowing them to become corrupted. Same thing with Xi making what is seemingly a crazy play, even by her standards.





*Spoiler: contains at least one wolf*
Show

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> *Spoiler: Let'sGetKraken ISO*
> Show
> 
> *Spoiler: Makes me nervous*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just a few quick points:

Given that we had a corrupted jailer, I don't think that me pointing out that a traditionally town role shouldn't be trusted is indicative of anything other than basic game competence. 

That bit about scumsiding - just point out that while it was a gamble, Xihirli could have plausibly survived Benoojian flipping non-Corrupted. 

Was not asking for your scry results in that last bit, just whether or not that was something you had already explained or if it was unknown.

Otherwise fair, the Snow read was gut-based and weak and really only there to have something to contribute D1.

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## AvatarVecna

> Just a few quick points:
> 
> Given that we had a corrupted jailer, I don't think that me pointing out that a traditionally town role shouldn't be trusted is indicative of anything other than basic game competence. 
> 
> That bit about scumsiding - just point out that while it was a gamble, Xihirli could have plausibly survived Benoojian flipping non-Corrupted. 
> 
> Was not asking for your scry results in that last bit, just whether or not that was something you had already explained or if it was unknown.
> 
> Otherwise fair, the Snow read was gut-based and weak and really only there to have something to contribute D1.

----------


## Allando

> 


AV, you are not going to die.

----------


## Caedorus

Question to the experieced players: how often have you done/seen a wolf sh*tvote another wolf d1? Might just be noob!me thinking, but maybe worth looking into.

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## Batcathat

> Question to the experieced players: how often have you done/seen a wolf sh*tvote another wolf d1? Might just be noob!me thinking, but maybe worth looking into.


I'm not exactly the most experienced player around, but I'd say it happens pretty often. No one expects you to stick to your initial vote, so having a placeholder on your wolf buddy shouldn't be much of a problem. There's always the risk that it'll turn into an actual wagon, of course, but even then you could probably just switch to another wagon without looking too bad.

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## Caedorus

Nvm then  .

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## Caedorus

> I'm not exactly the most experienced player around, but I'd say it happens pretty often. No one expects you to stick to your initial vote, so having a placeholder on your wolf buddy shouldn't be much of a problem. There's always the risk that it'll turn into an actual wagon, of course, but even then you could probably just switch to another wagon without looking too bad.


Or ruthlessly bus your partner

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## Benoojian

> Or ruthlessly bus your partner


And come up with a post-hoc explanation for your random vote so you can claim to be the first one to suspect the wolf as well, the bus driver so to speak.

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## rakkoon

AV's ISO on flat_footed is very convincing.
AV should receive an oscar for doing iso's in meme format!

----------


## Snowblaze

> Or ruthlessly bus your partner





> And come up with a post-hoc explanation for your random vote so you can claim to be the first one to suspect the wolf as well, the bus driver so to speak.


Hey, stop stealing my strategies!

Seriously, though: wolves probably begin by random-voting their partners slightly more than statistical average (I have not calculated these statistics) but they're not so much more likely to do so than average that it's something that can be used as more than an extra point in a wolfcase you already have decent confidence on. imo/ime, anyway.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> AV, you are not going to die.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

Just a quick note to pay particular attention to my boon if I die tonight (not that I expect to, as AV is sussing me here). Might explain some of my behaviour on D2.

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## Batcathat

I'm not sure I should be revealing this right now, since I'm not entirely certain it won't help the wolves in some way, but I also really don't want to risk having the information die with me (I don't think I'm very likely to die tonight, but I didn't think Ti and Jeen were very likely to die N1 either). Basically, I think the worst case scenario of not doing it is worse than the worst case scenario of doing it.

So, here goes: Snow is one of the tempted, though she probably hasn't been corrupted yet.

----------


## Rogan

A service of your narrator for Caedorus, who can't post links / gifs at the moment (Post Cap):



And now: *Night 2 ends!*

Please stand by for results and narrative!

----------


## Rogan

Many things happened during this night. Some townswoman remembered to investigate Xihirli to make sure she really was evil. When they found the crystal ball, symbol of the Seer, they were shocked and tried to stop the execution, but failed. The respected cornerstone of the town was already dead on the noose... Which turned out to be good, because one woman stayed behind and found a bloody knife, which perfectly matched some of the wounds of the poor paladin who died first.

It was a shock for the inhabitants of Burlow and the paranoia reached a critical level. During all the night, the sound of various fights was heard, until, finally, the morning came.

It is a snowy morning, blanketing the town in what would be a flawless white if it weren't for a single bloody mar. A corpse is discovered at the bottom of the clock tower, clutching in her dead hands a silver chain, bent and broken as if once part of something else. Perhaps a piece of jewelry. 
Whatever the case, another lies dead.

Footsteps on the snow bear evidence of two people leaving the town in the same direction. One track was a bit clearer than the other, so probably, they left one after the other. Did Grand Arbiter follow Aleph Null? Or was it the other way round? Maybe, we will never know.

The son of the miller is the next victim. His broken body is lying under a pile of flour, which used to be inside a bag. He was on the way to deliver this food to the manor, but he never arrived. Someone robbed him of the second bag of flour, the other one only left behind because it was destroyed in the fighting.

A terrible cry from Snowblaze marks the point of yet another victim. The woman in white stands over the cloaked figure of bladescape, who is lying in his blood, while she is desperately dripping some silvery potion on the wound on his chest. At least, he didn't have to suffer, as his dead was quick. A fast, clean stab in the heart.

The next victim had met a much crueler fate.
The charred remains of a priest are lying inside of his burned out shack at the backside of the church. He didn't live there, of course, but he allowed various beggars to take refugee from the cold. His mercy was repaid in bitter coins. They burned down the place while he was still alive and trapped inside. Why? It might be a mystery forever.

Justice was not close behind.
While the Guard was dead, some brave inhabitants founded a militia and brought down two of them. They didn't wait for a trial or the executioner, and killed them on the spot. Their headless bodys are still lying where they found them.

But did Book Wombat help them? The reports are not clear, but clearly his body is lying not far away from the carnage at the church, and his clothes have a faint impression of smoke. But the weapon on his hip is still clean and doesn't show any signs of usage.

There is no doubt about Books alignment anymore, when the last victim of the night is found. "He tried to meet someone there... Didn't do nothing to the priest" are his last words, before he dies, frozen to death. But who killed the scrupulous, but ultimately harmless, trader? And why?


*Spoiler: Mech*
Show

*Spoiler: Aleph Null*
Show

The Barman
You are the Barman, hero. You win when the town is save again.
You used to be a fearsome fighter, but settled down. Still, nobody would dare to decline an invitation to your bar.
Invitation: Each night, you can target one living player and invite them to your bar. They wonÂt be able to use any actions this night or the following day.
Brawl at the Bar: Once per game, you can cause a brawl at your bar. The player you have invited will die in the fighting.

I'm Nocturnal (Boon): You might use two actions each night.
If you don't have two night actions available, gain this:
Are you asleep? (Boon): Each night, you can target one living player. You will learn if they successfully used a night action.

They have left the Town (RL reasons)

*Spoiler: Grand Arbiter*
Show

The Magician
You are the Magician, corrupted. You win when the corrupted gain a majority of the living players.
Every good town needs some arcane powers in order to survive. You are here to provide them! You know many spells, but some of them might be dangerous.
In your lust for power, youÂve made a deal with the devil.
Sending: Each day, you may create a message containing no more then 25 words. At phase change, this message will be delivered to a player of your choice. They can reply with 25 words, which will be delivered to you at the start of the next day.
Identify: Each night, you can target one living player. You will learn the details of one power they have available.
Dying Curse: When you die, you will utter a curse which will hit one player responsible for your death. They canÂt use abilities or cast a vote for two phases (one day, one night).

I've got a Book about this (Boon): You have a library full off fascinating books about various topics. Once per day, you might select one of the following topics and learn some information about it. You can select each topic only once.
Persons: You will learn the Role of one random player, but not the Alignment
Jobs: You will learn 3 random Roles which are in play, but not who is playing them
Alignments: You will learn the current number of players of one Alignment of your choice (Hero, Neutral, Tempted, Corrupted)

They have left the Town (RL reasons)

*Spoiler: bladescape*
Show

The Alchemist
You are the Alchemist, tempted. You win when the town is save again, unless you become corrupted.
Your skills allow you to brew potions with different effects. Most of the time, you help your neighbors, but not everybody trusts your skills. They might have a reason.
Poison: Each night, you might target a living player to add some poison into their wine. They will die at the next morning. If you kill a hero with this power, you become corrupted. You have three doses of poison in your stock.
Pure Alcohol: Each night, you may target a living player and add some pure alcohol in their wine. If they use a targeted power in the same night, they will hit a random target instead.
Healing Potion: Each night, you may target a living player. If they would die in this night, you can save them with this potion. Unfortunately, it requires some rare components, so you only have one dose at hand. You will learn when this dose was used up.

Cryptic B***rd (Boon): You don't like to let other people know what you are truly thinking. Three times per game, you can select one of your votes you have cast during the day as your true vote, even if you voted someone else later.

He died like a hero.

They have died.

*Spoiler: Book Wombat*
Show

The Trader
You are the Trader, neutral. You win by scoring three points before the game ends.
Ironically, all this unrest is good for your business. Everybody wants to buy something, some want a charm to defend against evil, others prefer a book containing secret knowledge and again some others want a weapon to slay their foes.
Tempting Offer: Each day, target a living player to offer them one of the items mentioned above. They will receive this offer at phase change and have time till the dawn of the next day to accept the offer. If they do so, they gain one use of either a protective, an informative or an offensive power, depending on your offer, while you gain a point. They will learn your identity, but not your alignment, on a successful trade. You may only trade once with each player and canÂt sell the same kind of item more than twice.

Hidden Truth (Boon): Once per night, you can send me a short text describing the death of a random NPC to be posted at the start of day. You may hide some truth in this text, for example a hint at your role or action, but not your alignment.
Once per game, you can ask me to reveal the hidden truth. I will reveal your hints and confirm them as the truth.


They have died before they could fulfill their victory condition

Xihirli has died

*
Day 3 has started.* It will end approximately Thursday, 22:00 CET 
You may now post again

----------


## AvatarVecna



----------


## 3SecondCultist

Excellent. So we've got 3 Corrupted down, and a Tempted to boot. So far, town seems to be doing okay. Sorry to see both Aleph and Arbiter go for RL reasons. Hope all is well with you folks!

Interesting re: blade's boon and powers. I wonder if he's the one who's been throwing off the vote count this game, and if so why. I _also_ wonder if he's the one who killed JeenLeen N1. blade, if this was you, you have our sincere thanks for getting a wolf (though I'm also wondering if you wanted to switch teams and townread JL like I did, hoping to off a hero). Either way, you're dead so unless anyone has any way of speaking with the dead, I imagine that won't be cleared up until the end of the game.

(I hope it goes without saying but if it was someone else, they should keep quiet about it)

*@Rogan:* Will we get replacements for the folks who have left? I assume not, considering you revealed their roles and alignments, just wanted to double-check.

BatCatHat for now, mostly because I want there to be some real pressure there and the IIoA from D1 is not great in hindsight. I would do an ISO on Snow as well to see how that holds up, but... that's a lot of posts. Maybe I'll just do a re-read and see how I feel.

Good people of the town, how are we feeling about the possibility of a W/W day yesterday? I'm personally not seeing it (sorry again for being such a vocal wagoner against Meta), but it kind of determines how hard I'm going to be looking at Snow today.

- - - Updated - - -

Damn it AV, I know you're probably messing around but if you started as Tempted and your Corrupted trigger was the Seer getting lynched by town, I swear...

----------


## AvatarVecna

*Spoiler: today should be quite fun*
Show

----------


## Benoojian

We know AV's secret deal was with the Trader and not a Tempted trigger.

I have reason to trust Batcathat is town.

Meta

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> We know AV's secret deal was with the Trader and not a Tempted trigger.
> 
> I have reason to trust Batcathat is town.
> 
> Meta


Are you willing to share that reason, and if so why? If you'd rather keep it close that's alright too.

----------


## AvatarVecna

*Spoiler: this meme for one person, you know who you are*
Show

----------


## Benoojian

> Are you willing to share that reason, and if so why? If you'd rather keep it close that's alright too.


Not just yet, they're safer if I don't reveal the exact details but it is a mechanical reason, not a read.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> Not just yet, they're safer if I don't reveal the exact details but it is a mechanical reason, not a read.


Okay, in that case I will move my vote to Snowblaze.

----------


## flat_footed

> Not just yet, they're safer if I don't reveal the exact details but it is a mechanical reason, not a read.


I'm pretty sure you and I have the same info.

----------


## Benoojian

> Okay, in that case I will move my vote to *Snowblaze*.


What are you proposing as her Tempted trigger then?

----------


## Batcathat

> Good people of the town, how are we feeling about the possibility of a W/W day yesterday? I'm personally not seeing it (sorry again for being such a vocal wagoner against Meta), but it kind of determines how hard I'm going to be looking at Snow today.


If it was, the wolves certainly resigned themselves to losing a buddy, since no one else got more than a single vote in the end. So while I'm still somewhat suspicious of Meta, I feel like W/W is less likely. 

Assuming Meta and AV are both town (or tempted), it seems likely that the last wolves (wolf?) are among six people unless I'm missing something (or misclearing someone). That seems pretty manageable. (Of course, it also doesn't account for corrupted tempted).

----------


## Allando

> We know AV's secret deal was with the Trader and not a Tempted trigger.
> 
> I have reason to trust Batcathat is town.
> 
> Meta


Bat is definitely town. Not saying why.

- - - Updated - - -

Going to bed everyone, might not be online tomorrow though

----------


## Batcathat

I should go to bed too, so for now I'll park my vote at *3SecondCultist*. That first post of the day felt a little off somehow and voting someone confirmed as tempted by a now confirmed townie doesn't seem like the most productive way to hunt wolves.

----------


## Caedorus

Important: need to go to bed but rundown: targeted flat, don't want to reveal what I got. Can vouch for bat, they are now definitly clear. Snow, who do you suspect now that xihirli flipped wolf?

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> I should go to bed too, so for now I'll park my vote at *3SecondCultist*. That first post of the day felt a little off somehow and voting someone confirmed as tempted by a now confirmed townie doesn't seem like the most productive way to hunt wolves.


Don't always default to malice when you can count on sheer stupidity! I forgot you confirmed Snow as Tempted (and likely not Corrupted yet), and with the rest of towncore mechanically clearing you, I think we're on the same side.

*No Vote* for now. I'm bad at this.

----------


## Rogan

> *@Rogan:* Will we get replacements for the folks who have left? I assume not, considering you revealed their roles and alignments, just wanted to double-check.


There will be no replacements.
They both knew they would be removed from the game at this phase change and accepted this.

If you expect trouble to post, you can let me know and I'll try to find a solution which is acceptable for everybody, so don't be afraid to let me know. I won't kick anybody out against their will.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

Persolus is mechanically confirmed town. I will not elaborate.

----------


## Benoojian

> Persolus is mechanically confirmed town. I will not elaborate.


Did you receive this last night?

----------


## Illven

So I seriously doubt venca if they were tempted had that as their trigger.

Cause it would be impossible (nearly) for them to win as town.

We need to kill Xi to win. 
That can take the place of a lynch of a night kill.

But oops Xi can't be targeted reliably

----------


## Rogan

*Attention please!*

The following proclamation of the mayor should have been included in the night results!
I've forgotten. I'm sorry. There is no delaying power or similar involved.




> Citizens of Burlow,
> 
> It has come to my attention that one of you has been distributing extra rations at a personal expense during these tough times.
> While I cannot lend my assistance to such efforts, know that I approve of your actions.
> Be safe, for I'll be watching over you.
> 
> Your beloved mayor.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> So I seriously doubt venca if they were tempted had that as their trigger.
> 
> Cause it would be impossible (nearly) for them to win as town.
> 
> We need to kill Xi to win. 
> That can take the place of a lynch of a night kill.
> 
> But oops Xi can't be targeted reliably


Xihirli is dead. It was at the end of the mechanics of Rogan's post.

Benooj, I'm very actively not commenting on it because I don't wish to give wolves information.

----------


## Benoojian

> Xihirli is dead. It was at the end of the mechanics of Rogan's post.
> 
> Benooj, I'm very actively not commenting on it because I don't wish to give wolves information.


 I have some information about targeting last night that may or may not affect the validity of your Mechanical clear of Persolus.  Do you want it?

----------


## Illven

> Xihirli is dead. It was at the end of the mechanics of Rogan's post.


No my point is, 3secondcultist half jokingly suggested that Vecna was a tempted whose corruption trigger was the seer being lynched.

My issue is that, it would mean that Vecna either loses, or becomes corrupted nearly guaranteed with the only possible win condition being Vecna dies BEFORE Xi does.

Cause 
We needed to lynch Xi to have a realistic chance to kill her, cause she cannot be reliably targeted.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> I have some information about targeting last night that may or may not affect the validity of your Mechanical clear of Persolus.  Do you want it?


Whatever happened last night would not affect this, I am positive.

- - - Updated - - -

Also Snow seeing as you're tempted I take back my apology for the gut read of you being hedgy, I was right damn it. ❤️

----------


## Benoojian

AvatarVecna-Not mechanically cleared but outed by evil seer and genuinely helpful, strong townread
Metastachydium- Still very suspicious of them, wolflean
Batcathat- Mechanically Hero via Ben and flat
flat_footed- was very suspicious early on, any mechanical I missed on them?
Book Wombat died night 2- Neutral
Lady Serpentine died night 1- Hero
Persolus- Mechanically Hero via LetsGetKraken
Grand Arbiter left town night 2- Corrupted
bladescape died night 2, on the side of the heroes- Tempted
Illven- Mechanically Tempted via Benoojian
JeenLeen died night 1- Corrupted
Aleph Null left town night 2- Hero
Let'sGetKraken- something pings off but nothing mechanical yet, Neutral lean
Snowblaze- Mechanically Tempted via batcathat
Caedorus- Mechanically Hero via death flip
Allando- Mechanically cleared by 3SC, but this one is complicated. I am going to start by saying I have a townlean on them, but Rogan explicitly told Caedorus that he made an exception for the brothers on the rule of alignment and boon being independent. This could mean that Allando is Mason Town as assumed but it could also mean that Allando is a Tempted or Neutral whose condition has something to do with his brother. He could also be a Corrupted with the power to let his Hero brother win with the wolves if they are both still alive.
Cazero- I don't have anything on them
Xihirli voted day 2, executed night 2- Corrupted
3SecondCultist- Not mechanically cleared, because the original clear was based on role being always Town, which is no longer a safe assumption, however they have been generally towny
Benoojian- Not mechanically cleared, but role confirmed by saving confirmed townie. (I am Hero but I'm trying to summarize what can be proven)
Rakkoon- ??? I know nothing about this person.

6 mech heroes along with 3 assumed- 7 Alive
3 Tempted- 2 Alive
1 Neutral- 0 Alive
3 Corrupted- 0 Alive

Rakkoon, Cazero, LetsGetKraken, flat_footed, and Meta are the only ones I don't see clear claims or mechanical support for alignment yet.
However, if someone flips differently than expected, some of these mechanical claims are thrown into doubt

going back to the numbers I assumed earlier
9 Town
3 Tempted
4 Neutral (must be higher than Tempted)
4 Corrupted (could be only 3 if a Tempted has been converted)
1 unaccounted for

If there is a 4th Tempted, there is also a 5th Neutral and no more starting Corrupted, which would mean at least one Tempted has already converted. (If the last Tempted is still town, they could reveal and cut down our suspect pool?)
there are likely 3 Neutrals and no more than 2 Town among Rakkoon, Cazero, LetsGetKraken, flat_footed, and Meta and likely at least one Corrupted.

----------


## Illven

Well question 1 is simple. Caederous, did you see your brother's role?

----------


## Benoojian

From the revealed Tempted trigger, it is likely that the triggers involve using traditionally Town powers in wolfy ways, possibly even accidentally. For example, if the Executioner was Tempted, they could likely convert by saving a Corrupted instead of saving a townie like I did. Of course, the traditional Alchemist only has 1 poison not 3, so the Tempted powers might be slightly buffed to give them more chances to convert. A hypothetical Tempted Seer might convert by viewing a Corrupted player two nights in a row (i.e. throwing away their town power for a night to join the wolves). A Tempted Mason might convert by getting their partner lynched, the anger turning them to evil.

Of the two revealed Tempted: Snowblaze and Illven, does anyone have a hypothetical trigger that they think may have already been completed? If you think you know the trigger, it has not been completed, but wolves could _trick_ it into being completed, say nothing. I only want ones that may have already been completed.

Is there a list of the most common roles used in GitP werewolf games? That would help me think about what kinds of Tempted there might be.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> AvatarVecna-Not mechanically cleared but outed by evil seer and genuinely helpful, strong townread
> Metastachydium- Still very suspicious of them, wolflean
> Batcathat- Mechanically Hero via Ben and flat
> flat_footed- was very suspicious early on, any mechanical I missed on them?
> Book Wombat died night 2- Neutral
> Lady Serpentine died night 1- Hero
> Persolus- Mechanically Hero via LetsGetKraken
> Grand Arbiter left town night 2- Corrupted
> bladescape died night 2, on the side of the heroes- Tempted
> ...


I'm town, but I would say that anyhow. I had mechanical evidence as to someone else's identity (other than Persolus of course) but that is no longer relevant because they are dead/gone. 

3SecondCultist should also be on your suspicious list, I think. I would say 3Second, Rakkoon, Cazero, flat_footed, and Meta are the most suspicious right now.

----------


## Benoojian

> Well question 1 is simple. Caederous, did you see your brother's role?


Alignment, not role. @Caedorus: Did Rogan explictly tell you Allando's alignment would be the SAME as yours or only that he was making an exception?

Also he said they would be off all night and possibly tomorrow so we may not get that answer this phase.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

Helpful summation, Ben.

I will add this: I not only know that Allando is explicitly a Hero rather than Neutral or Tempted, I know his role. I've been asked not to say what it is (and I absolutely won't), but Rogan has confirmed for me that Heroes can never become Corrupted, only Tempted can under their own unique conditions. Once a Hero, always a Hero.

Now, could a Corrupted have a cult power outside of that? Sure. But I don't think Rogan would put that power in the game, since it kind of steals the thunder from the main mechanic for this particular WW setup.

If I'm taking the word of the Masons - which I have no reason not to do at this point - I have a pretty strong set of towncore players. In order of most confident to least confident, I've got:

 3SC (still town, still an idiot) Allando (via Rogan) Caedorus (via flip) BCH (via Masons) Benoojian (rolespewed, could be Tempted but my gut says Hero) AV (rolespewed and not vouched for by Masons, otherwise see Ben)
Everyone else is either unconfirmed, dead, hasn't claimed, or is confirmed to be something else (see Snow).

Also, don't mark off Persolus as cleared just because Kraken said so. That could be a bold wolfy lie D3 to help get a buddy past the radar. I don't know how likely it is, but taking a mech clear from an uncleared player at face value doesn't seem like a smart move.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

Also, I don't think yesterday was W/W. I think Meta is pretty far down the suspicion list. Cazero, Rakkoon and 3SecondCultist would be my recommendations for investigation right now.

- - - Updated - - -




> Helpful summation, Ben.
> 
> I will add this: I not only know that Allando is explicitly a Hero rather than Neutral or Tempted, I know his role. I've been asked not to say what it is (and I absolutely won't), but Rogan has confirmed for me that Heroes can never become Corrupted, only Tempted can under their own unique conditions. Once a Hero, always a Hero.
> 
> Now, could a Corrupted have a cult power outside of that? Sure. But I don't think Rogan would put that power in the game, since it kind of steals the thunder from the main mechanic for this particular WW setup.
> 
> If I'm taking the word of the Masons - which I have no reason not to do at this point - I have a pretty strong set of towncore players. In order of most confident to least confident, I've got:
> 
>  3SC (still town, still an idiot) Allando (via Rogan) Caedorus (via flip) BCH (via Masons) Benoojian (rolespewed, could be Tempted but my gut says Hero) AV (rolespewed and not vouched for by Masons, otherwise see Ben)
> ...


Also, while I have suspicion on me - which is valid, I was laying low D1 and have tried not to be too solvy and consequently attract a night kill, since I have the ability to mechanically clear people - directly implicating a wolf buddy seems like a terrible move. I would be distancing or ruthlessly bussing at this point.

- - - Updated - - -

Along those lines, I am avoiding claiming any specifics because something I do is counterable if wolves have the right powersets/information.

----------


## Benoojian

> I'm town, but I would say that anyhow. I had mechanical evidence as to someone else's identity (other than Persolus of course) but that is no longer relevant because they are dead/gone. 
> 
> 3SecondCultist should also be on your suspicious list, I think. I would say 3Second, Rakkoon, Cazero, flat_footed, and Meta are the most suspicious right now.


That's fair, I'm probably giving them too much slack based on being part of the 'saving my ass from the Evil Seer' squad. Their particular power makes for a particularly bastardy game if they're Corrupted though. If Allando is killed and flips anything but Hero, gank 3SC _immediately_. Good Allando and Evil 3SC is possible, but Evil Allando and Good 3SC is not.

I don't think they're the best target though, not with so many quiet Neutrals. I would love to get anything on Rakkoon and Cazero. Any Neutrals that can guarantee their own win with a strong town alliance want to come forward?

I did not include self-claims in my list (even my own was in parentheses), because they don't mean much, so I won't update for that.

----------


## Illven

> Assuming Meta and AV are both town (or tempted), it seems likely that the last wolves (wolf?) are among six people unless I'm missing something (or misclearing someone). That seems pretty manageable. (Of course, it also doesn't account for corrupted tempted).


Most likely Corrupted singular. I was able to ask Rogan a yes or no question. I asked if there was 5 corrupted at game start. I was told No. Considering the amount of neutrals, and the fact that every tempted could become a wolf, I can't see Rogan choosing to put 6 corrupted in at game start.

3 have died. To me that suggests we started with 4. So unless someone fell to corruption, we have a single wolf left.

----------


## AvatarVecna



----------


## Benoojian

> Also, don't mark off Persolus as cleared just because Kraken said so. That could be a bold wolfy lie D3 to help get a buddy past the radar. I don't know how likely it is, but taking a mech clear from an uncleared player at face value doesn't seem like a smart move.


I meant to mark that one as questionable, along with mechanical claims from flat, but I wasn't sure quite how to do it clearly.

You and Allando are ironically more tightly mechanically linked than Allando and Caedorus


Flip Result
Surviving Player's Result

Allando flips Hero
3SC could be any alignment, but role is confirmed

Allando flips non-Hero
3SC is non-Hero

3SC flips Hero
Allando is Hero

3SC flips non-hero but told truth about role
Allando is Hero

3SC flips non-hero and lied about role
Allando could be any alignment



I don't think any of these info gains are worth a lynch tho. Also I didn't feel like making the approximately 6 other similar outcome charts for other questionable details. At least not yet, maybe tomorrow

- - - Updated - - -




> Most likely Corrupted singular. I was able to ask Rogan a yes or no question. I asked if there was 5 corrupted at game start. I was told No. Considering the amount of neutrals, and the fact that every tempted could become a wolf, I can't see Rogan choosing to put 6 corrupted in at game start.
> 
> 3 have died. To me that suggests we started with 4. So unless someone fell to corruption, we have a single wolf left.


So if Illven hasn't fallen to Corruption there is a single wolf, if Illven hit their trigger and is lying there are probably 3.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Most likely Corrupted singular. I was able to ask Rogan a yes or no question. I asked if there was 5 corrupted at game start. I was told No. Considering the amount of neutrals, and the fact that every tempted could become a wolf, I can't see Rogan choosing to put 6 corrupted in at game start.
> 
> 3 have died. To me that suggests we started with 4. So unless someone fell to corruption, we have a single wolf left.


Assuming you're telling the truth, that is huge. Only one to go.

My information gathering will be less useful at this point, but can help confirm suspicions.

----------


## Illven

> Assuming you're telling the truth, that is huge. Only one to go.
> 
> My information gathering will be less useful at this point, but can help confirm suspicions.


Assuming a tempted hasn't fallen into corruption yes.

Or the very low odds Rogan put in six or more wolves at game start.

----------


## Benoojian

> Assuming a tempted hasn't fallen into corruption yes.
> 
> Or the very low odds Rogan put in six or more wolves at game start.


6 Corrupted and 3 Tempted means 4 neutrals, which leaves 8 town max, that is outright unwinnable unless there is another twist like the Corrupted don't actually know each other's identities.

----------


## Illven

Also at Ben. I re-read the thread, and Caedrous stated he was TOLD Allando was town.

----------


## Benoojian

> Also at Ben. I re-read the thread, and Caedrous stated he was TOLD Allando was town.


What people are told and what people _interpret_ are not always the same thing.

----------


## Illven

> What people are told and what people _interpret_ are not always the same thing.


Okay Caedrous, not that I think it's likely but can you CONFIRM you saw Allando's alignment has town?

Or were told from Rogan himself.

----------


## Illven

Also if I counted correctly we have six npc victims tonight?

Does it double at the end of every night? Is the night number a mutlipler?

----------


## rakkoon

Hey.
One of the last two surviving Neutrals here.
Shout out to my sister/brother from another mother, you're doing great!
You folks really have a death-in-the night problem here, am I right?
I was hiding behind the trash cans tonight so I didn't see anything but I bet that there are some wolfy people around here.
Xi was one of them, the one with the knife? Huh, good that I voted for her the previous day when most of you wanted to lynch another person. 
Anyone want to bet we'll find another one today?
Seriously, does anyone want to loan me 5 dollars since I lost my last couple of bets.
It's not easy being a Gambler in this town, you always surprise me.
Anyway, sorry to disturb you all, carry on.
(if anyone has 5 dollars I would be obliged though)

----------


## Benoojian

the Narrator has explicitly told me that I am overthinking things.

"Clarification:
In the hypothetical case of me including Masons as a boon, I'd give both players the same boon. I'd count that as a single exception (but I do admit it's a bit of a stretch on the 'no deliberately misleading answers' front)."

- - - Updated - - -




> Hey.
> One of the last two surviving Neutrals here.
> Shout out to my sister/brother from another mother, you're doing great!
> You folks really have a death-in-the night problem here, am I right?
> I was hiding behind the trash cans tonight so I didn't see anything but I bet that there are some wolfy people around here.
> Xi was one of them, the one with the knife? Huh, good that I voted for her the previous day when most of you wanted to lynch another person. 
> Anyone want to bet we'll find another one today?
> Seriously, does anyone want to loan me 5 dollars since I lost my last couple of bets.
> It's not easy being a Gambler in this town, you always surprise me.
> ...


Really, with this many mechanically revealed alignments, I'd think a gambler win would be easy.

Also can you clarify "last TWO surviving Neutrals"? By my count there should be 3 left. Unless something has gone horribly wrong with the numbers?

----------


## Snowblaze

> I'm not sure I should be revealing this right now, since I'm not entirely certain it won't help the wolves in some way, but I also really don't want to risk having the information die with me (I don't think I'm very likely to die tonight, but I didn't think Ti and Jeen were very likely to die N1 either). Basically, I think the worst case scenario of not doing it is worse than the worst case scenario of doing it.
> 
> So, here goes: Snow is one of the tempted, though she probably hasn't been corrupted yet.


Can confirm. It is mechanically impossible for me to become corrupted now, despite what my next piece of RP may suggest.

(And Kraken, no you are not having that apology back, I've been playing this pretty much exactly as I would as town.)




> Important: need to go to bed but rundown: targeted flat, don't want to reveal what I got. Can vouch for bat, they are now definitly clear. Snow, who do you suspect now that xihirli flipped wolf?


I can't say with any confidence until I've done more analysis, but... I've been toying with a few different worlds. The GA flip means we likely only have one wolf left (five + Tempted + a lot of neutrals seems wolfsided) so I need to work out how valid each one is.

- There are worlds where we had w/w wagons yesterday, and Xihirli's claim was precisely to save their wolf partner Meta. 

- if that's not the case, I have 3SC tinfoil since he was pretty vocal about trying to get the counterwagon to a flipped wolf killed and based on the whole "evil Seer" thing a believable claim shouldn't be enough to clear someone. Though GA's Sending means it's less likely wolves had two messaging powers.

- I think Kraken looks substantially worse from that flip, but I need to figure out what the "Persolus is mechanically clear" thing means for his alignment.

- we are not tinfoiling the masons.

Will go through the mechanical stuff.

- - - Updated - - -




> Also can you clarify "last TWO surviving Neutrals"? By my count there should be 3 left. Unless something has gone horribly wrong with the numbers?


Seconded. "There are more neutrals than Tempted" according to AV's information, which was sourced from Wombat and we have no reason to disbelieve it. And bladescape has flipped Tempted, BCH outed me as Tempted and apparently Ilven also is. Hence four neutrals, with one dead makes three. 

So something doesn't add up, if you have actual mechanical proof of that, Rakkoon.

----------


## Benoojian

> - we are not tinfoiling the masons.


If the masons have a boon that makes them appear as town until both of them are death flipped, there's no way town is winning, congrats Cae and Allando. So I'm choosing to ignore that possibility for a couple of Days at least.

----------


## rakkoon

> Really, with this many mechanically revealed alignments, I'd think a gambler win would be easy.


Really? Rubbing it in? I thought you were better than that  :Small Wink: 




> Also can you clarify "last TWO surviving Neutrals"? By my count there should be 3 left. Unless something has gone horribly wrong with the numbers?


Yeah...about that. Rogan just clarified on discord (get well soon buddy). The goals of two neutrals just got easier tonight because of the many deaths but that does not mean that there are only two left. So three sounds alright. 

So... shout out to my two (probably) siblings from another mother!

- - - Updated - - -

Reads Snowblaze's post...answered that above

----------


## Allando

> *Attention please!*
> 
> The following proclamation of the mayor should have been included in the night results!
> I've forgotten. I'm sorry. There is no delaying power or similar involved.


Ok



> Well question 1 is simple. Caederous, did you see your brother's role?


No, but I posted it for him, and he did get confirmation we would both be hero.



> Alignment, not role. @Caedorus: Did Rogan explictly tell you Allando's alignment would be the SAME as yours or only that he was making an exception?


Same.



> Also at Ben. I re-read the thread, and Caedrous stated he was TOLD Allando was town.


Yup.



> Okay Caedrous, not that I think it's likely but can you CONFIRM you saw Allando's alignment has town?
> 
> Or were told from Rogan himself.


He was. I am definitely town, but he has my word for my role.

----------


## Snowblaze

Mechanically clear
Caedorus - confirmed by flip
Allando - masons with Caedorus
Benoojian - Executioner
Batcathat - other town people say so
AvatarVecna- Seer's Apprentice, got Xihirli killed

Mechanical evidence for them being clear
3SecondCultist - believable claim, according to masons
Persolus - Kraken says he's town, extremely tinfoil worlds where he's lying
Let'sGetKraken - Ilven says he's town because Reasons

Tempted
Snowblaze 
Ilven

Neutral claimants
Rakkoon

The rest
Cazero
flat_footed
Metastachydium

That's... literally it? And we're still short two neutral claimants? 

...okay. 

I kind of think we should just massclaim now, get all the Reasons on the table so we can work out who can even possibly be a wolf.

(Also fyi: there are worlds where all wolves are already dead and Ilven has fallen to corruption.)

----------


## Illven

Snowblaze if you can't mechanically fall anymore care to reveal what it was?

----------


## Snowblaze

_"No," the woman in white repeated over and over again, kneeling beside the alchemist's corpse. "No." 

She'd long since given up her attempts to heal him. He was - he was dead. He was never coming back. Oh, gods, she was such a fool. Such a stupid, stupid fool. She'd worked it out, she'd realised she was the hero, and what had she done? 

Fallen in love. And a hero declaring their love to someone, and being accepted, before she had her "happy ending"? Tragedy waiting to happen. If she'd just waited, he would still be alive now. She'd as good as wielded the knife herself.

Well, tragedy was only her due. It was always going to be her fate. She reached into her pocket to toy with the little object there, wondering if it would free her from this story.

It wouldn't, she knew. It would just give her a different one. So which was it to be? The tragic heroine who gave up living when she lost her lover? Or the slightly-less-tragic heroine who used his death to fuel her as she saved the town with the help of her gods-forsaken snarky plant companion?

Or the woman who didn't care a fig about what happened to this town, so long as she had her vengeance. That was something to live for, wasn't it? She would find her lover's killer and make sure they knew what they had done to her. She would destroy them.

And then... well, by then she'd know what the fates had planned for her next._

----------


## Batcathat

> Mechanically clear
> Caedorus - confirmed by flip
> Allando - masons with Caedorus
> Benoojian - Executioner
> Batcathat - other town people say so
> AvatarVecna- Seer's Apprentice, got Xihirli killed
> 
> Mechanical evidence for them being clear
> 3SecondCultist - believable claim, according to masons
> ...


While I'm always a little scared of situations that seem too good to be true, I don't really disagree with anything on the list (provided I don't listen to the _most_ paranoid voices in my head. There's no world where the whole mess with Xi was some sort of headache-inducing plan to give AV towncred, right?), even if it does make some optimistic assumptions. At the risk of stating the obvious, it'd be nice if someone could mech clear Kraken, since that should confirm Persolus and put some points in favor of Illven not having fallen.

----------


## Snowblaze

> Snowblaze if you can't mechanically fall anymore care to reveal what it was?


I can't really do that without a full claim, it's tied to a specific power of mine. And unless we are mass claiming I won't be claiming my full role; at a bare minimum I want to see Meta's claim first.

----------


## Benoojian

> Mechanically clear
> Caedorus - confirmed by flip
> Allando - masons with Caedorus
> Benoojian - Executioner
> Batcathat - other town people say so
> AvatarVecna- Seer's Apprentice, got Xihirli killed
> 
> Mechanical evidence for them being clear
> 3SecondCultist - believable claim, according to masons
> ...


I would disagree about AV being mechanically clear, just very low on the suspect list. 

I missed Illven claiming knowledge of Kraken's alignment. Quote it?

You could also have triggered your Corrupted condition, and goddamn does that RP sound like you triggered it.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> Mechanically clear
> Caedorus - confirmed by flip
> Allando - masons with Caedorus
> Benoojian - Executioner
> Batcathat - other town people say so
> AvatarVecna- Seer's Apprentice, got Xihirli killed
> 
> Mechanical evidence for them being clear
> 3SecondCultist - believable claim, according to masons
> ...


I'd be happy to claim, if it helped. Some thoughts on all of this though:

1) I was halfway through working on an ISO on Kraken before seeing that Illven vouched for them. We know that Illven is Tempted, and as you put it the question is whether they're Corrupted at this point or not.

2) Even with a claim, I haven't seen anyone rush to jump in and back up rakkoon, so I see their Gambler claim and don't necessarily believe it?

3) If someone can mech-clear rakkoon and/or corroborate Illven & Kraken where they are and the POE really is just down to 3 players, should we not ask said players to claim first?

----------


## Snowblaze

> While I'm always a little scared of situations that seem too good to be true, I don't really disagree with anything on the list (provided I don't listen to the _most_ paranoid voices in my head. There's no world where the whole mess with Xi was some sort of headache-inducing plan to give AV towncred, right?), even if it does make some optimistic assumptions. At the risk of stating the obvious, it'd be nice if someone could mech clear Kraken, since that should confirm Persolus and put some points in favor of Illven not having fallen.


Sounds like my tinfoil voice and yours have a lot in common, I had that same thought on AV. What silenced mine was pointing out that it's really unlikely that someone has a role saying "you're a wolf. One of your powers is that you know your apprentice, who is also a wolf. You would know their role anyway due to being a wolf, so that power is utterly useless."

----------


## Caedorus

> Well question 1 is simple. Caederous, did you see your brother's role?





> Alignment, not role. @Caedorus: Did Rogan explictly tell you Allando's alignment would be the SAME as yours or only that he was making an exception?
> 
> Also he said they would be off all night and possibly tomorrow so we may not get that answer this phase.





> What people are told and what people _interpret_ are not always the same thing.





> Okay Caedrous, not that I think it's likely but can you CONFIRM you saw Allando's alignment has town?
> 
> Or were told from Rogan himself.


Yes, for the umpteenth time, the exception is that we have the same alignment.

I hate massclaims. Just, fyi.

I can vouch with 90% certainty for snow's corruption con: they sent me a letter with a code for me to confirm it came from them, will leave it up to her to reveal but can say it won't trigger. They're town for our purposes.

Flat is either an  op town role or a triggered tempted from what I've learned. Opinions welcome pls

----------


## Illven

I believe I said I believed kraken was town.

My thought process was he was vig, since he was one of the few who sussed jeenlean.

Although I suppose you have no reason to believe me. I'm not corrupted, and it is impossible for the wolves or any players to trick me into corruption.

----------


## Snowblaze

> My thought is Let'sGetKraken is likely town. For reasons I don't want to reveal yet.


Ilven saying Kraken is town for Reasons. And yes, I know my RP sounds like I'm evil now. That's why I put a disclaimer saying I'm still not.

----------


## Batcathat

> I believe I said I believed kraken was town.
> 
> My thought process was he was vig, since he was one of the few who sussed jeenlean.
> 
> Although I suppose you have no reason to believe me. I'm not corrupted, and it is impossible for the wolves or any players to trick me into corruption.


Okay, so no mechanical evidence? 

I've been leaning town on Kraken myself, so you could certainly be right, but some hard evidence would be neat.

----------


## Illven

> Okay, so no mechanical evidence? 
> 
> I've been leaning town on Kraken myself, so you could certainly be right, but some hard evidence would be neat.


Correct, no mechanical evidence.

----------


## Caedorus

> While I'm always a little scared of situations that seem too good to be true, I don't really disagree with anything on the list (provided I don't listen to the _most_ paranoid voices in my head. There's no world where the whole mess with Xi was some sort of headache-inducing plan to give AV towncred, right?), even if it does make some optimistic assumptions. At the risk of stating the obvious, it'd be nice if someone could mech clear Kraken, since that should confirm Persolus and put some points in favor of Illven not having fallen.


Aaactually I have some 30% confidence they're wolf, and my guess is *Illven* was tempted but triggeted.



> I would disagree about AV being mechanically clear, just very low on the suspect list. 
> 
> I missed Illven claiming knowledge of Kraken's alignment. Quote it?
> 
> You could also have triggered your Corrupted condition, and goddamn does that RP sound like you triggered it.


Again, unless she very convincingly lied and has a very similar  power, no.

----------


## Snowblaze

> Yes, for the umpteenth time, the exception is that we have the same alignment.
> 
> I hate massclaims. Just, fyi.
> 
> I can vouch with 90% certainty for snow's corruption con: they sent me a letter with a code for me to confirm it came from them, will leave it up to her to reveal but can say it won't trigger. They're town for our purposes.
> 
> Flat is either an  op town role or a triggered tempted from what I've learned. Opinions welcome pls


Yup, can confirm. Honestly if that's outed I don't have much reason to not fullclaim atp, there's just... something I'm waiting on and would like to hear first. (Caedorus should know what it is.)

Tempted!flat implies five neutrals which would have to be exactly Wombat/Meta/Cazero/Kraken/Rakkoon. Which is theoretically possible but... five neutrals, four Tempted, at least three wolves = weird game balance.



> I believe I said I believed kraken was town.
> 
> My thought process was he was vig, since he was one of the few who sussed jeenlean.
> 
> Although I suppose you have no reason to believe me. I'm not corrupted, and it is impossible for the wolves or any players to trick me into corruption.


_dumps Kraken in "the rest" pile_

- - - Updated - - -




> Aaactually I have some 30% confidence they're wolf, and my guess is *Illven* was tempted but triggeted.
> 
> Again, unless she very convincingly lied and has a very similar  power, no.


"They" = Kraken rather than AV, right? And if the thing I said is relating to your Kraken read there's no mechanical evidence for that one.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh yeah, and the thing I got last night was Wombat's trade offer. Not going to tell wolves what it is, but there appear to be no strings or bastard conditions attached.

----------


## Batcathat

> Flat is either an  op town role or a triggered tempted from what I've learned. Opinions welcome pls


Interesting. As I said earlier, I was leaning town (or at least non-wolf) on flat, but that's not based on a whole lot.

Now that my mechanical towniness is out of the bag, perhaps I can get some input on something I've been thinking about regarding flat. As you probably have realized, flat got the same evidence of my alignment as a few others and I'm wondering whether him mentioning it unprompted and without me being in any danger of getting lynched is in any way indicative of alignment? "Outing" me as mechanically cleared could make me a more likely NK target, plus saving the reveal for when I'm a wagon might've gained more intel. But it could also be a well-meaning townie move to support someone you know is town. Thoughts? 

Maybe it would be a good idea to start a possible claim train by asking flat for one?

----------


## Snowblaze

And my messaging power was another reason for my 3SC tinfoil, town having more than one feels weird... I guess it could be a boon and then its existence is NAI.

----------


## Caedorus

> I believe I said I believed kraken was town.
> 
> My thought process was he was vig, since he was one of the few who sussed jeenlean.
> 
> Although I suppose you have no reason to believe me. I'm not corrupted, and it is impossible for the wolves or any players to trick me into corruption.


Sussing Illven even more now. Let's just say I have a decent guess as to the vig.



> Yup, can confirm. Honestly if that's outed I don't have much reason to not fullclaim atp, there's just... something I'm waiting on and would like to hear first. (Caedorus should know what it is.)
> 
> Tempted!flat implies five neutrals which would have to be exactly Wombat/Meta/Cazero/Kraken/Rakkoon. Which is theoretically possible but... five neutrals, four Tempted, at least three wolves = weird game balance.
> 
> _dumps Kraken in "the rest" pile_
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> "They" = Kraken rather than AV, right? And if the thing I said is relating to your Kraken read there's no mechanical evidence for that one.


Yes, that was Kraken I meant. Still, with such a small number of main suspects, lynching there is just common sense. Illven will tell us kraken, so...

@av, what did you get off of meta?

----------


## flat_footed

> Flat is either an  op town role or a triggered tempted from what I've learned.


OP Town Role sounds nice. Interesting that Ben's results for me would get communicated in that way.




> Persolus is mechanically confirmed town. I will not elaborate.





> Did you receive this last night?





> Benooj, I'm very actively not commenting on it because I don't wish to give wolves information.


Ok, a simple one then. Was it Night 1 or Night 2 you received this information? I'm not seeing how this particular bit being public would hurt town.

----------


## Benoojian

> Flat is either an  op town role or a triggered tempted from what I've learned. Opinions welcome pls


If flat is another Tempted, there is another Neutral, and there are no more starting Corrupted. That cuts our pool of suspects down to Illven, Snowblaze, and Flat and leaves all the other unknowns as Neutral (Meta, Rakkoon, Cazero, Kraken)

Something about that feels too easy though. Is there something that disproves this world?

- - - Updated - - -




> OP Town Role sounds nice. Interesting that Ben's results for me would get communicated in that way.


Fishing for information isn't a good look for you Flat.

----------


## Caedorus

> Interesting. As I said earlier, I was leaning town (or at least non-wolf) on flat, but that's not based on a whole lot.
> 
> Now that my mechanical towniness is out of the bag, perhaps I can get some input on something I've been thinking about regarding flat. As you probably have realized, flat got the same evidence of my alignment as a few others and I'm wondering whether him mentioning it unprompted and without me being in any danger of getting lynched is in any way indicative of alignment? "Outing" me as mechanically cleared could make me a more likely NK target, plus saving the reveal for when I'm a wagon might've gained more intel. But it could also be a well-meaning townie move to support someone you know is town. Thoughts? 
> 
> Maybe it would be a good idea to start a possible claim train by asking flat for one?


Actually, I think flat might be safe claiming bc there are too many other townies to distract the nk.



> OP Town Role sounds nice. Interesting that Ben's results for me would get communicated in that way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, a simple one then. Was it Night 1 or Night 2 you received this information? I'm not seeing how this particular bit being public would hurt town.


Those weren't bens results, you forget I have an info power.

@flat, just out of curiosity, what does it look like for you to get targeted by me?

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> If flat is another Tempted, there is another Neutral, and there are no more starting Corrupted. That cuts our pool of suspects down to Illven, Snowblaze, and Flat and leaves all the other unknowns as Neutral (Meta, Rakkoon, Cazero, Kraken)
> 
> Something about that feels too easy though. Is there something that disproves this world?


I have not heard an actual Neutral claim from any of the final four parties.

At this point, I really do think some folks should claim. Like I said, the people in the POE (after looking at Illven's post and hearing clarification, it's four people and not three).

My current vote is for LetsGetKraken. I have reasons, but it's late and I need to sleep so will elaborate in about 5-6 hours.

----------


## flat_footed

> Actually, I think flat might be safe claiming bc there are too many other townies to distract the nk.
> 
> Those weren't bens results, you forget I have an info power.
> 
> @flat, just out of curiosity, what does it look like for you to get targeted by me?


What did it look like? Well, the Prince is sending orders to the knight.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

He could also be vig! I saw that mentioned before, I have been considering the possibility for a bit, but I promise I do have a case for at least Tempted!Kraken, if not Corrupted (and the likeliest reason he wouldn't admit to being Tempted is that his trigger to be Corrupted has already gone off).

- - - Updated - - -




> What did it look like? Well, the Prince is sending orders to the knight.


In case of a mislynch, please do not repeat my words here.

(unless you're a wolf, in which case it doesn't matter)

----------


## Illven

So we only started with three wolves? @ 3secondcultist

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> So we only started with three wolves? @ 3secondcultist


Huh? We've already got 3 dead dogs. I'm arguing that there was a fourth when the game started, and potentially there might be a pair of Corrupted left (one of which could be a triggered Tempted Kraken).

- - - Updated - - -

Also: as Benoojian first implied yesterday, going to go ahead and claim my role is *The Prince, Hero*. And I should be able to prove it come N3 directly to anyone left who doesn't trust me.

----------


## Illven

> Huh? We've already got 3 dead dogs. I'm arguing that there was a fourth when the game started, and potentially there might be a pair of Corrupted left (one of which could be a triggered Tempted Kraken).


Assuming Ben's numbers are accurate. (I'm in bed, on mobile, can't look)

For us to have two corrupted either me or snow would had to have fallen. Or we started with three wolves.

----------


## Caedorus

> Huh? We've already got 3 dead dogs. I'm arguing that there was a fourth when the game started, and potentially there might be a pair of Corrupted left (one of which could be a triggered Tempted Kraken).
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Also: as Benoojian first implied yesterday, going to go ahead and claim my role is *The Prince, Hero*. And I should be able to prove it come N3 directly to anyone left who doesn't trust me.


On behalf of orlando, can confirm.



> Assuming Ben's numbers are accurate. (I'm in bed, on mobile, can't look)
> 
> For us to have two corrupted either me or snow would had to have fallen. Or we started with three wolves.


...and we know snow can't have fallen, so...

----------


## Illven

> On behalf of orlando, can confirm.
> 
> 
> ...and we know snow can't have fallen, so...


So there's one corrupted.

----------


## Caedorus

Ohh I just realised I have, trough a very convoluted chain of messages, blades legacy  read (keep in mind this is blades opinion), he said kraken was lock woolf (leaving that typo)

----------


## Batcathat

> Ohh I just realised I have, trough a very convoluted chain of messages, blades legacy  read (keep in mind this is blades opinion), he said kraken was lock woolf (leaving that typo)


Interesting. Does he provide any reasons worth sharing?

----------


## Snowblaze

It's bladescape, what do you think?

Actually I feel obliged to follow his legacy due to RP stuff, so *Let'sGetKraken*. 

Also this 3SC/Ilven dynamic is amusing, even more so if it's just a set of coincidences. Now they're both royalty on top of everything else!

Oh, that's why someone asked Ilven about purple elephants, isn't it? 

(I love the fact I can say things like that and it actually makes sense in context.)

----------


## Illven

I have a guess as to snowblaze's triggering condition....

I'm going to try to sleep

----------


## Benoojian

> Assuming Ben's numbers are accurate. (I'm in bed, on mobile, can't look)
> 
> For us to have two corrupted either me or snow would had to have fallen. Or we started with three wolves.


My numbers are accurate if all the assumptions within are accurate, but for instance if AV is wolf then the assumption "There are more Neutrals than Tempted" falls apart and the numbers change wildly. The other assumption that could shake up the numbers is if your statement "There were not 5 Corrupted at the start of the game" can't be trusted.

----------


## Caedorus

> Interesting. Does he provide any reasons worth sharing?


Not that I know.

----------


## Allando

> Huh? We've already got 3 dead dogs. I'm arguing that there was a fourth when the game started, and potentially there might be a pair of Corrupted left (one of which could be a triggered Tempted Kraken).
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Also: as Benoojian first implied yesterday, going to go ahead and claim my role is *The Prince, Hero*. And I should be able to prove it come N3 directly to anyone left who doesn't trust me.


Yup.
I think it's time for me to reveal that last night I was partially bluffing. I killed Blade, instead of protecting anyone. Lol.

----------


## Caedorus

> What did it look like? Well, the Prince is sending orders to the knight.


Wrong answer, that is not what it looks like.



> Actually, I think flat might be safe claiming bc there are too many other townies to distract the nk.


Ok here is what I got: the hunter killed a player (before d3)

----------


## Illven

> Yup.
> I think it's time for me to reveal that last night I was partially bluffing. I killed Blade, instead of protecting anyone. Lol.


So you're roleclaiming vig?

[I tried sleeping I failed

----------


## flat_footed

> Wrong answer, that is not what it looks like.
> 
> Ok here is what I got: the hunter killed a player (before d3)


It's literally what I got. You realize this is the truth.

----------


## Cazero

I have reasons to believe flat_footed is responsible for some of our missing votes.

----------


## flat_footed

> I have reasons to believe flat_footed is responsible for some of our missing votes.


None of the voting inconsistencies have been my doing, but I won't deny having that option.

----------


## Allando

> So you're roleclaiming vig?
> 
> [I tried sleeping I failed


No. I'm the guard who can also kill someone once

----------


## Batcathat

> No. I'm the guard who can also kill someone once


So there were (at least) two guards, but with different powers?

- - - Updated - - -

So, Kraken flipping might confirm Persolus (though probably only if Kraken flips town, since a wolf might still have been honest about a mech confirmed townie) and give a hint about Illven. Is there anyone else whose death could clear/condemn someone else? Kraken wouldn't be my first pick, but might make the most sense.

----------


## rakkoon

I have the feeling the townies have killed more people than the wolves but hey, it's working!

----------


## Allando

> So there were (at least) two guards, but with different powers?


Yes I was also confused.
I agree we might get good info out of Kraken but what happened to Meta? Wasn't meta in the lead before the whole Xihirli thing? Maybe we should look into that?
My day could get hectic so for now I'm starting the *Metastachydium* wagon ( hope I got your name right )

----------


## Benoojian

> I have the feeling the townies have killed more people than the wolves but hey, it's working!


I'm not certain the wolves have gotten ANY kills.

----------


## Batcathat

> Yes I was also confused.
> I agree we might get good info out of Kraken but what happened to Meta? Wasn't meta in the lead before the whole Xihirli thing? Maybe we should look into that?
> My day could get hectic so for now I'm starting the *Metastachydium* wagon ( hope I got your name right )


While I'm not exactly opposed to a Meta wagon, that would mean that the wolves just accepted losing either Xi or Meta, since there wasn't really any serious attempt at another wagon that I remember. I suppose they might've decided that it was too risky, as it might make other wolves look bad, but I still think it's a point against Meta being a wolf.

----------


## Allando

> No. I'm the guard who can also kill someone once





> So there were (at least) two guards, but with different powers?


I just reread my role, so, while guarding is what I do I'm not called 'guard', I'm the Knight.
I realised this because I was horribly confused by what Flat said.

----------


## Benoojian

> While I'm not exactly opposed to a Meta wagon, that would mean that the wolves just accepted losing either Xi or Meta, since there wasn't really any serious attempt at another wagon that I remember. I suppose they might've decided that it was too risky, as it might make other wolves look bad, but I still think it's a point against Meta being a wolf.


I mean how do you predict a true Seer claim getting quadruple shut down and the Seer getting lynched instead of the seer's target? They didn't think they needed a backup plan to getting me lynched.

----------


## Caedorus

> So there were (at least) two guards, but with different powers?


Yes, and a prince 3sc to lead them.

Also known as Prince Purple the Elephant III, hence my question - I suspected Illven and 3sc had a backchannel, and this is the alternative to "wolfchat, duh". I know better now: I trust 3sc, and if they had a backchat, Illven would have known.

Also, I'm very sorry @flat: I was mistaken, that was the correct answer; I thought you got gossip about me in particular but you got something I knew instead. I feel like a dufus now and won't vote you for now but technically this is NAI.

I suggest we vote for someone in the flat/Illven/Kraken/Cazero regions. My current vote is on Illven but will change it to the lead wagon when wagons form.

----------


## Batcathat

> I mean how do you predict a true Seer claim getting quadruple shut down and the Seer getting lynched instead of the seer's target? They didn't think they needed a backup plan to getting me lynched.


It's possible, sure, though they did have a fair amount of time to think of one after you were cleared. But yeah, Meta definitely isn't the least likely wolf, but nor would he be my first pick, because of W/W wagons feeling less likely.

----------


## Cazero

> None of the voting inconsistencies have been my doing, but I won't deny having that option.


Interesting.

----------


## Snowblaze

> I have a guess as to snowblaze's triggering condition....
> 
> I'm going to try to sleep


I feel like the other pieces of my role are extremely obvious, but that may just be because I already know the answers.




> Yup.
> I think it's time for me to reveal that last night I was partially bluffing. I killed Blade, instead of protecting anyone. Lol.


*sigh* so now I have to try and get my RP character to not actually turn evil and kill you. 

_The woman in white reached down to her lover's belt and took the dagger sheathed in it. She wrapped her fingers around the hilt, both hands, and then rose and turned to face the knight.

"You killed him, then?" she asked, voice quiet and calm. "The knight who we trusted to protect the town. Who we trusted to find the devil-worshippers. He was innocent, and you killed him. Tell me," she continued, advancing towards the murderer, "why we should continue to trust you. Tell me why I shouldn't take your life as you took his."

This was all wrong. She was only making that little speech because she wouldn't be able to fight the whole town, and failed revenge was not her preferred form of tragic ending. 

But now she sounded like the hero rising up against the powers that be and establishing a new order - she didn't want that - let the town stay as it was, as long as her lover was avenged -_

(Disclaimer: while I do think bladescape shouldn't have been killed, I still have trust in our masons to actually kill wolves this time round.)

I would like flat, and preferably also Kraken/Ilven/Cazero, to fullclaim. I'll be doing the same myself in a bit, just still waiting on the thing I mentioned earlier.

----------


## Metastachydium

A shuffling noise was heard from behind. Put that thing down. The Flower said wearily, shaking the thin coating of snow off, not in the mood, for once, to be witty. I did not expect this any more than you did. Like I told that one in the tavern, the Fates are blind. Not uncaring. Not unfeeling. But blind, ultimately. the plant went on bobbing back and forth in the morning chill. Remember what I told you, at length, the night before? It is done. And this All this will soon be over. the Flower extended a sympathetic leaf almost pleadingly. And I know just how much the outcome matters to you, personally. Do you really wish to become the Enemy he, no, the two of you struggled so hard against? The Flower felt almost bad. The words were all true, of course. But this still felt like gambling, a gross game against the plant's own better judgement. Still, it _was_ almost over; and the Flower needed this sad headache alive. This had better work.

----------


## Snowblaze

AV, would I be right in guessing you received a scry result for me as well as Meta? If so then your power hasn't changed and Meta is 99.9% not-wolf.

----------


## Metastachydium

For everyone's benefit (and to that of one above all, as per that request): I am the Ambassador, Neutral. Unlike the Wombat, I do not gather money; I gather Contacts. I can stick close to a contact of my choice each night. The powers used on me are used on them as well.

- - - Updated - - -

Man. If I knew Snow was a swordsage I would have delayed the reveal a tad. Anyhow, as per Blade's last wishes, let's take a good look at *Let's Get Kraken*.

----------


## Benoojian

If flat is hunter and wolf, wolves would have been getting 2 kills a night. Wolves have gotten zero kills (maybe 1 but I have no idea why they would target Lady Serpentine) ergo flat started as town or tempted.

If Meta and rakkoon are neutral, then that leaves Cazero and Kraken as the remaining suspects for the last wolf.

Kraken gets us a little info, but Cazero has been too quiet.

----------


## Snowblaze

> A shuffling noise was heard from behind. Put that thing down. The Flower said wearily, shaking the thin coating of snow off, not in the mood, for once, to be witty. I did not expect this any more than you did. Like I told that one in the tavern, the Fates are blind. Not uncaring. Not unfeeling. But blind, ultimately. the plant went on bobbing back and forth in the morning chill. Remember what I told you, at length, the night before? It is done. And this All this will soon be over. the Flower extended a sympathetic leaf almost pleadingly. And I know just how much the outcome matters to you, personally. Do you really wish to become the Enemy he, no, the two of you struggled so hard against? The Flower felt almost bad. The words were all true, of course. But this still felt like gambling, a gross game against the plant's own better judgement. Still, it _was_ almost over; and the Flower needed this sad headache alive. This had better work.


_The woman in white laughed. Of course her unwanted snarky plant companion was trying to stop her from - from - oh, her mind was so fogged with grief she hadn't even realised the blindingly obvious.  

This was her choice. Between good and evil. Revenge wasn't the third option she'd been looking for between death and unwanted heroism. Or rather, it was. It just came with certain conditions.

She knew what the alchemist would have wanted. But what if that wasn't what she wanted? Was she supposed to live her life for a dead man and not for herself? Did it even matter, now he was gone?

"Over," she said bitterly. "No. It does not end, once you have begun. There are always more wrongs to right, more threats to everything you hold dear." And she didn't want that - but she couldn't go back - not now she'd lost -

She laughed again. Not now she'd lost everything. There was nothing left that could hurt her now. Nothing left that could be used against her. So what was holding her back? She could do whatever she wanted.

Except, what did she want?_

(Thanks for giving me the way out of that plot snarl, Meta. This is now officially the most messed-up heroic origin story ever.)

- - - Updated - - -




> If flat is hunter and wolf, wolves would have been getting 2 kills a night. Wolves have gotten zero kills (maybe 1 but I have no idea why they would target Lady Serpentine) ergo flat started as town or tempted.
> 
> If Meta and rakkoon are neutral, then that leaves Cazero and Kraken as the remaining suspects for the last wolf.
> 
> Kraken gets us a little info, but Cazero has been too quiet.


flat could have used the wolves' factional kill, I believe. But I don't actually think he's a wolf rn.

----------


## Cazero

> I would like flat, and preferably also Kraken/Ilven/Cazero, to fullclaim.


Might as well. I'm about to lose anyway.
I'm the Mercenary, neutral. I win if I'm alive to profit when this reach day 5, wich isn't going to happen.
And I really should have shanked AV last night. For the memes.

----------


## Snowblaze

> For everyone's benefit (and to that of one above all, as per that request): I am the Ambassador, Neutral. Unlike the Wombat, I do not gather money; I gather Contacts. I can stick close to a contact of my choice each night. The powers used on me are used on them as well.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Man. If I knew Snow was a swordsage I would have delayed the reveal a tad. Anyhow, as per Blade's last wishes, let's take a good look at *Let's Get Kraken*.


Yup, sorry for that misunderstanding. Anyway, yeah, this is what I was waiting to hear back about so...

Poet at your service, hence the various references to narrative convention in my RP. My powers are Love Letter, which lets me send messages (as I did last night to Caedorus), and Love Song.

That lets me, once per game, target a player and declare my love to them. If they accept we get a private chat, if they reject me I sell my soul to the devil for revenge. I used that on bladescape N1, he accepted. So I'm the source of bladescape's legacy. 

The weird thing is that Meta targeted me N1, and that gave him access to my chat with bladescape as well. He targeted me again N2 since AV was scrying him and my being mechanically clear benefits him. 

There's still a few secrets, most of which I've told the masons, but I don't think it particularly benefits town to reveal any of them rn.

- - - Updated - - -




> Might as well. I'm about to lose anyway.
> I'm the Mercenary, neutral. I win if I'm alive to profit when this reach day 5, wich isn't going to happen.
> And I really should have shanked AV last night. For the memes.


So you've been killing people? Who have you killed so far?


- - - Updated - - -

And another list!

Mechanically clear
Caedorus - death flip
Allando - masons with Caedorus
Benoojian - executioner
AvatarVecna - Seer's Apprentice, got Xihirli killed
Batcathat - other clear people say so

Mechanical evidence in their favour
Snowblaze (tempted but uncorruptable) - claim that can be validated in multiple respects
3SecondCultist - strong claim, can apparently prove themselves
Persolus - mechanically clear according to Kraken

Tempted, possibly Corrupted
Ilven

Neutral claimants
Metastachydium (backed up by Snowblaze)
Rakkoon 
Cazero

Which leaves...
Let'sGetKraken 
flat_footed


Kill Kraken, then Ilven if he flips town or Persolus if he flips wolf and we don't have any other reason to trust him by then. (I have a theory about flat but I want him to say it himself.) 

Also we're still short one neutral claimant, I believe.

----------


## Allando

_"We all make mistakes", the Knight said. "Some graver than others. Look at the bright side... I have saved you from the potential hurt of watching the man you loved slowly give in to corruption. My duty, as Knight, is to protect this town and all it's inhabitants. However, I also have a sense of honour. When my brother was saved from death, he agreed to remove your love from this town to the executioner... I was honourbound to fullfill  his promise."
He smiles. "Do not worry. There will be others. After we deal with the threat at hand, that is."
With that, he slowly walks a ways away, back to his cart. From the cart, he removes a tombstone and a bouquet of pretty flowers.
"For your sacrifice, Bladescape, Alchemist of this town. You died so others might live. May you rest in peace."_ 
Sorry, blade.

----------


## Cazero

> So you've been killing people? Who have you killed so far?


Nobody. That seemed counterproductive to my goal of making the game last longer. I really should have known better.

----------


## Snowblaze

So we have three unclaimed kills, all with different flavour and none of which make sense as wolf kills. And all we know was that at least one of them is flat's doing. Hmm.

RP response to come later, I need a while to figure out how to make my character's acceptance of becoming a hero somewhat believable.

----------


## Allando

Here's to Taffy telling me apologising for killing a towny is actually wolfy lol 😄

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

Unless I've been scried, I doubt anyone would be able yo mechanically clear me - other than the fact that I targeted Benoojian last night and they didn't die/suffer in any way. 

I suggest that someone scries me tonight, and that I gather information on someone else (which I will not disclose, lest wolves kill them). That way, either wolves kill me and I flip town, confirming Persolus, or I am scried by AV, confirming Persolus and myself. 

Or you can take my word for it. I am really not open to claiming (beyond Hero) unless I am literally otherwise going to die.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh **** for some reason I missed two entire pages, whoops. I will catch up and amend my post if necessary.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay, so I am the lead wagon then. I guess I don't have a choice. 

I suppose there are enough people for Wolves to kill, I am probably fine revealing my power. I hope it explains my reluctance. 

I am the Lookout, Hero. I can target one player each night and save them from danger, but cancelling actions (if they would be attacked). That player, the attacker, and myself all get feedback if that is triggered. I targeted Persolus N1 and Benoojian N2.

My boon is what allowed me to mechanically confirm Persolus. I can elaborate at night, assuming you don't lynch me.

- - - Updated - - -

(My power is called "Shout", if that helps).

----------


## Batcathat

> I am the Lookout, Hero. I can target one player each night and save them from danger, but cancelling actions (if they would be attacked). That player, the attacker, and myself all get feedback if that is triggered. I targeted Persolus N1 and Benoojian N2.


Just so I understand your claim correctly, are you saying that you target player A and if they're attacked by player B, you stop the attack (but also stops player A from acting, maybe?) and all three of you are told if that has happened (but no feedback otherwise)?

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Just so I understand your claim correctly, are you saying that you target player A and if they're attacked by player B, you stop the attack (but also stops player A from acting, maybe?) and all three of you are told if that has happened (but no feedback otherwise)?


That is correct. Both nights I have explicitly received no feedback (like, the words "no feedback") so no one has attempted to harm either person the nights I targeted them.

----------


## Snowblaze

When you say "attack" what exactly do you mean? Kill, some category of harmful actions, or any action?

Does anyone have information that can confirm/deny Kraken's claim in some way?

- - - Updated - - -




> Here's to Taffy telling me apologising for killing a towny is actually wolfy lol 😄


Tell her I do it as town, and that the madwoman with a dagger probably influenced your behaviour in character.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> When you say "attack" what exactly do you mean? Kill, some category of harmful actions, or any action?
> 
> Does anyone have information that can confirm/deny Kraken's claim in some way?
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> Tell her I do it as town, and that the madwoman with a dagger probably influenced your behaviour in character.


You can see why I've been reluctant to share details. 

I asked if it would include anything that messed with alignment (ie anything that would corrupt Tempted) and was told I didn't know.

- - - Updated - - -

I have information on how it would have interacted with those that died. Bladescape would have triggered it with either poison or alcohol. JeenLeen wouldn't, as being jailed can sometimes be advantageous. It would have blocked both of Aleph Null's barman powers. Book's offensive power that he could have sold would have triggered it, but not selling the power itself. 

I would really strongly suggest you wagon someone else, but if I have to die to clear Persolus it isn't the worst thing in the world. I am now suspicious of 3SecondCultist, Meta, and Illven (as someone who is now potentially corrupted). Snow's very tricky wording about "can no longer be corrupted" does make me a touch wary about that already having happened, but that's low down the list. Would very much like AV's opinions on what's happening right now other than evil cackling.

- - - Updated - - -

Ah I missed Meta claiming. Flat and 3SecondCultist, then. And a corrupted Illven. Those are my best guesses. 

If I am lynched, please pay particular attention to my boon.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> For everyone's benefit (and to that of one above all, as per that request): I am the Ambassador, Neutral. Unlike the Wombat, I do not gather money; I gather Contacts. I can stick close to a contact of my choice each night. The powers used on me are used on them as well.





> The weird thing is that Meta targeted me N1, and that gave him access to my chat with bladescape as well. He targeted me again N2 since AV was scrying him and my being mechanically clear benefits him.


*Spoiler: Meta, can you please confirm this?*
Show

----------


## Illven

> Poet at your service, hence the various references to narrative convention in my RP. My powers are Love Letter, which lets me send messages (as I did last night to Caedorus), and Love Song.
> 
> That lets me, once per game, target a player and declare my love to them. If they accept we get a private chat, if they reject me I sell my soul to the devil for revenge. I used that on bladescape N1, he accepted. So I'm the source of bladescape's legacy.


Okay, so my guess was wrong.

My guess was that you were already tied to bladescape at game start and if bladescape was lynched by the town you'd corrupt for revenge on the town.


Am I really the only tempted in full control of their temptation  :Small Confused:  Gods that was a wasted question.

----------


## Metastachydium

> *Spoiler: Meta, can you please confirm this?*
> Show


It is correct. I targeted Snowblaze in the specific hope that I can amplify the scrying power used on me and make it cover Snow as well.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> It is correct. I targeted Snowblaze in the specific hope that I can amplify the scrying power used on me and make it cover Snow as well.


*Spoiler: Three players, three alignments*
Show

https://i.imgflip.com/773b30.jpg

----------


## Metastachydium

> *Spoiler: Three players, three alignments*
> Show
> 
> https://i.imgflip.com/773b30.jpg


Well, yes? Tempted, Neutral, Hero.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Well, yes? Tempted, Neutral, Hero.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> *Spoiler: Three players, three alignments*
> Show
> 
> https://i.imgflip.com/773b30.jpg


That checks out, then. Caedorus is town, Snow is Tempted, and Meta is Neutral. Unless one came back as Corrupted.

----------


## Snowblaze

That does in fact make sense. 

Anyway, thoughts on Kraken's power claim, people? It feels like it overlaps with Jeen and Aleph's powers quite a lot, but this is the sensible setup speculation that says Seers are never evil so...

Actually, Kraken: when you say Persolus is mechanically clear do you mean confirmed town or confirmed not-wolf?

----------


## AvatarVecna

> That checks out, then. Caedorus is town, Snow is Tempted, and Meta is Neutral. Unless one came back as Corrupted.

----------


## Batcathat

> Anyway, thoughts on Kraken's power claim, people? It feels like it overlaps with Jeen and Aleph's powers quite a lot, but this is the sensible setup speculation that says Seers are never evil so...


Yeah, this is pretty much my thoughts too. Aside from that, having a power that we can't really see any effects off or test in any meaningful way I can think of is kind of a convenient claim for a wolf, but that doesn't mean it can't be true.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> That does in fact make sense. 
> 
> Anyway, thoughts on Kraken's power claim, people? It feels like it overlaps with Jeen and Aleph's powers quite a lot, but this is the sensible setup speculation that says Seers are never evil so...
> 
> Actually, Kraken: when you say Persolus is mechanically clear do you mean confirmed town or confirmed not-wolf?


Persolus is confirmed town, based on the mechanical results of my boon. There is a slight possibility that this is wrong, but someone else has said something that reduces this to almost 0%. I'm sorry for being so vague, I'll elaborate tonight (or I'll be dead and you can all read it).

- - - Updated - - -

A little bit of elaboration - my boon can't detect Corrupted. It can only confirm if someone is a Hero. Persolus is a Hero, as a consequence.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

Alright, I'm doing an ISO of D2 Kraken (N2 is coming, I haven't finished yet and want to hold off until I hear what people thik). I think at this moment in time that it's warranted, since we're pretty close to solving the game and he's one of the last unknowns.

Now, keep in mind my own bias: I am more likely to see even Kraken's more innocuous actions as shady. So I would like a second player to go through the D2 content and line up their thoughts to mine.

*Spoiler: Kraken D2 ISO*
Show




> Less wolfy, in my opinion. If Persolus hadn't been a serious front-runner, probably more wolfy, but as is I think they're pretty safe.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Blade isn't wolfy to me either. Snow is still giving off bad vibes. Don't really have reads otherwise. I'm fully off of Persolus at this point.


Not super helpful. Throwing out some pings, but not a lot of solving other than 'bad vibes'. Is 'fully off' Persolus but doesn't really explain it (possibly for towny reasons).




> Yes, to reiterate - reveal that knowledge with enough time for people to move to a different wagon (minimum 8 hours) if you have knowledge on someone being confirmed town. Otherwise save it for late. 
> 
> And yeah this seems too obvious a blunder for wolf Blade to make. 
> 
> EVIL MASONS?!?!?!?! 
> 
> No this was interesting. I was in favour of someone shooting AV but giving what they've been hinting at, they seem to be actually contributing outside of memes.... especially if whar Xihirli is implying is true. 
> 
> I can't tell if this is you being a regularly suspicious bastard or a wolfy suspicious bastard. I think IRL might be colouring my reads of you. 
> ...


So, Kraken does this thing I have noticed. He does it often, in deception-based games (both in WW and in others): he has a tendency to accuse someone directly of being the exact thing he is.

"Obviously, 3SC. Accusations are the whole point of this game, idiot."

Let me clarify. In games with hidden roles, whenever Kraken is a particular role he will be one of the first to accuse someone else of being said specific role. I'm not sure how aware he is of this, but it's a thing he did as wolf in the first game we played here (he spent a solid day IRL accusing me of being wolf when he was himself a dog, even though we'd just gotten our roles and the game hadn't even started yet). Being first and loudest is a staple of his, and to my mind he was the first person to call me Tempted.

What I'm trying to say is that if Kraken is not outright Corrupted, then he's almost certainly Tempted.

(This is the kind of stuff I need to be checked on, btw).




> This is interesting. I'm not sure it mechanically clears you so much as indicates you have a messaging role, but if the masons are willing to vouch for you I'm content with that. 
> 
> Snow, will get something together when I am at my computer but keep in mind that it was a gut read. I felt like you were being more hedgy than usual and it felt off. I will reread your comments and see how I feel.


"I have a gut read on you that's hedgy, and I promise I'll follow up on it later."

Admittedly justified based on Snow apparently being mech-Tempted, but could still be a wolf paving the way for a lynch later. Most minor of wolfpoints.




> Well, this is remarkably straightforward by Xihirli standards. *Benoojian*.





> We absolutely test Benooj right now, based on information as given.
> 
> Though it's important to note that it's quite likely that either some tempted or even corrupted (based on Jeen's flip) have town-like powers. As such, someone being a Mason or Seer or Vig is not *on its own* evidence of being town. If Benooj flips Corrupted, then Xihirli is pretty much 100% town (I know I have ruthlessly bussed partners in the past but this would be an extreme move).


Immediate support of Xi (keep in mind that at this point there's no Xi wagon yet, and Kraken is backing the Seer). Also while he's right in retrospect about Seer being a NAI role, this could also be read as shading the Masons and Ben without overtly looking like such. If I'm being uncharitable, which I probably am.




> And if we don't test you now, what exactly are our alternatives? The one seer claim we have - our mechanism for testing people - is the person you are casting suspicion on. Waiting doesn't provide us with any information and just delays the info we get from your flip, which is the only real way we have of corroborating Xihirli's claim. My vote stays where it is for now, you're the best candidate for a wagon.
> 
> The other options here is that Xihirli is being her normal self and is infact not being straightforward, and is trying to trap someone into revealing information, and made up the whole thing. But unless Xihirli comes forward and indicates it, the most likely scenario is that you're corrupted.


Still no Xi wagon yet, and look at that unwavering support! If Kraken is Corrupted, he and his mates would have felt very confident they were going to pull this off. This exact kind of big, bold bluff is perfectly in-character for wolf!Kraken.




> For the record snow this is the exact sort of thing that is gutpinging you as not town for me. There's basically nothing of substance in this post, and it feels like you've had more than a couple of those so far.


Eh. Snow's been quite solvy this game IMO. She's been pretty consistently helpful this game, which fits her narrative of being Tempted who never got a Corrupted trigger.

More to the point, how does this interact with the earlier posts in which 'solvy Snow is NAI'. So if she's solvy, it's NAI, but if she hasn't been solvy enough it suddenly is AI? And what are the qualifications for being solvy enough?




> You have, don't mean to imply like you haven't been contributing. But there have been a few posts which are more.... surface-level solvy, I think? You have a reputation for being incredibly solvy that you need to maintain, and my gut is saying that posts like these might be trying to maintain that level in between more rigorous solvy stuff. Apologies if I'm wrong, of course. I have been pinned by purry cat for the past 3.5 hours but when I get to my computer I will try to see if this gut feeling can be substantiated.


Explanation of the above shade at Snow. I can't tell if I like it or not.




> *Unvote Benoojian*. 
> 
> AV, please be more specific. You can clearly use the meme and post title template to communicate something for the less experienced players in the group. 
> 
> We now have an executioner claim. Caedorus, can you validate this?





> Benoojian eels like they are now forced to claim, is the answer. Which is reasonable, since I personally would otherwise have voted based on what the Seer claimed.


"Okay, if I have to get off the towny wagon I will - but I was totally justified in listening to the Seer and voting in her interests." Need some clippers for all that hedging.

Also, while interrogating AV and Caedorus is good for confirmation, it also looks kinda like a wolf trying to poke around to see where to start the next wagon.




> We do not. But they saved someone that is pretty close to confirmed town, so they're almost certainly not Corrupted.





> Xihirli, I think we're owed an explanation at this point.





> Ninja'd. Okay. *Xihirli*. Though I am open to other wagons. I'm feeling Neutral Jester, honestly.


"I'll vote Xi if I really have to - but she's probably a Neutral Jester, guys, so I'd really prefer to wagon anyone else."

Also: if Kraken already knew or suspected that Ben was not-Corrupted, the immediate vote and subsequent Xi defense looks worse.




> What comfortable pockets. Being mentioned in the same breath as Blade is quite flattering, I'll admit, but really this makes me more suspicious of you both, as the only thing that I've really done so far that's explicitly townish is how I handled the Benooj situation - and even then, I would have done that as a wolf, given that Xihirli looks to be wrong and I could have pushed a mislynch. 
> 
> But not suspicious enough to wagon either of you right now, at least. You can keep your secrets.


A towny would find both GA and Illven's comments a bit suspicious, but a wolf would also know that and say the same thing, throwing some shade in the process. Overall that's NAI.

Bringing up a similar scenario to what happened could also be towny.

Interesting that there is an assumption that "Xi is wrong", not "Xi is Corrupted/lying" there, though. And after Kraken has indicated he's well aware of the possibility of the latter. Sounds like someone who is looking for any reason to get off of this wagon.




> As (theoretically) Seer's apprentice, did you receive anything as to their alignment?
> 
> Given what flat shared, are they still a viable wagon here?


"Can we vote for flat? Please?"




> Now veteran (killing people who try to target you) is absolutely a powerset, but generally veterans are town-aligned and try not to bait people into targeting them. So probably not the case here.


NAI. I guess if you squint it's IIoA, but he's helping solve a dispute which I can't give wolfpoints for.




> This is supreme trolling and I cannot believe no one else is picking up on it. This is more like the Xihirli I remember. 
> 
> Did... did Flat just ask a tempted the specific circumstances in which they could join the evil team? Why would we ever want that knowledge to be public?! That seems like staggeringly poor knowledge to spread.


More shade on flat. Again, while Kraken is right about not threadspewing, it could also look like an attempt to get a flat wagon going without being the first to actually move away from Xi.




> Where's AV to make a meme when you need it?
> 
> Xihirli testing out a seer claim -> I sleep
> Xihirli adamantly denying revealing their results out of principle, just to ask someone else for their results on the next page -> I wake
> 
> Or maybe the other way around? You get the point. This is the chaos energy I expect from you.


NAI.




> Okay, since I did promise to substantiate this, here's an ISO on Snow's earlier posts to see whether or not my gut read of "Wasn't as substantively solvy early" was valid. 
> 
> There's a LOT of observational stuff here that originally pinged me as "Snow is trying to be active without being substantively solvy as she normally is" (and a lot of the reads are QUITE HEDGY), but Snow does make a solid attempt at a few reads and I think my gut can largely be disregarded here. So Snow's back to largely null for me (Sorry Snow <3)
> 
> Re: Xihirli, can those players with more experience chime in? While I'd like to think that town!Xihirli would try harder to save herself with such a powerful information-gathering role, I'm not sure if that's actually the case - and I agree that her flipping town wouldn't be particularly helpful. 
> 
> *Unvote Xihirli* for now.


Putting Snow back in the 'I might sus later for town-points' pile, and moving away from Xi. Really looking for any reason against her wagon, and getting a vote off of her. The assumption that "she would flip town" without outright defending her sounds like defending her without wanting to be seen doing it. In hindsight, that's wolfy.




> That didn't stop you as SK! 
> 
> I am fine with voting *Metastachydium*. (I hope that autocorrect is legit). I am still hella suspicious of Xihirli but I'm worried that offing the actual seer might be a bad play.
> 
> To be clear, Xi doesn't have seer-privy info. Xi has information on AV's role. Those are two very different things. 
> 
> If Benooj was corrupted they almost certainly would not have saved Caedorus, who has been mechanically cleared. Which is why Xi is deeply suspicious but should probably have one more round to prove their innocence, after sleeping on it. I just don't know why Xi would take such a bold play so early in the game as a wolf.


"We should absolutely not be voting the Corrupted, everyone. It makes no sense at all for her to be scum! Oh and also here's a vote for the opposite wagon."




> Agreed with Snow. Also, is pocketing town better than removing a soon-to-be mechanically cleared townie and also neutralizing someone else's boon (the mason partner)? I personally don't think so. 
> 
> *Unvote Metastachydium.* 
> 
> I don't think most of your response is indicative of Meta's alignment but the wording on that makes me cautious for my own reasons that I will share later. I might be reading too far into it, though. I will see how things develop before voting.  
> 
> This is absolutely not information we want wolves to have access to. Please do not respond.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> ...


Keep in mind he's replying to an idiot.

Going to throw some casual shade in my direction and then not explain it but "will share later". Feels especially OMGUS to give wolfpoints for this, so I'll ask anyone else to see what they think.




> Sorry if that came across as harsh - it is definitely a relevant question but also definitely should not be one answered publicly.


Some townpoints for this, a wolf would want to know.




> With an hour left to go, voting for one of the two wagons (Xihirli or Meta) would be the best thing to be doing at this point. 
> 
> Points for Xihirli: might just be seer, which is a very powerful resource, with bad luck. Might also be a jester-like role (would be a fitting neutral) in which case we should not vote them and should quietly vig-shoot them instead. 
> Points against Xihirli: tried to push the exe who saved town, outed AV. 
> 
> Points for Meta: some ISOs, I think? Mostly not voting Xihirli I believe. 
> Points that a largely neutral but relevant for Meta: Cultist's plan and the possible intervention of wolf powers on voting.
> Points against Meta: I have faint possible mechanical reasons for suspecting they're town but Rogan's wording is very vague.


This post is NAI in and of itself. He does seem to be trying to present the options fairly. Shading the narrator is NAI too, since Rogan has been on record of saying 'you can trust me' and then also given some bastardy powers.




> *Bladescape*. 
> 
> I don't want either of these people wagoned at this point, honestly. But the fact that Meta has not claimed while under the gun is not a point in their favour, I would say.


Not willing to vote for Xi, but going to throw more shade at Meta for those other people still on the fence.




> The fact that you have not claimed so close to the gun is really not a point in your favour. You could have potentially saved yourself.


Second time he shades Meta without voting for him.

All in all, I think there are some things that give Kraken a bad look D2. The biggest for me are his real reluctance to vote Xi in light of AV's obvious suspicion there (and his own admitted revelation that roles are NAI) and the shade on Meta at EoD without moving a vote there. In a wolf!Kraken world, he could have assumed that Meta has a passive power to reduce votes on himself - which he might, as the Ambassador it would be a very fitting power to have - and thought that every vote away from Xi counted.

Furthermore, there is the matter of his claim as Lookout. His boon appears to be related to information somehow, which would account for some of what he supposedly knows. Correct me if I'm wrong though, but his 'Shout' power as described would essentially be jailing a player. The problem I see with this is that between the Barman (Hero) and the Judge (Corrupted) had a similar power. I'm wondering how likely it is that Rogan would put in what amounts to 3 separate jailer-type powers in a game of 21 people, with 2 on the Hero side.

Persolus and Benoojian, were you aware of Kraken using his power on you? Did you get any feedback from Rogan that you were jailed? That would help us nail down how truthful he's being about it.

- - - Updated - - -

My working theory is that Kraken started the game as Tempted and is now Corrupted, btw. I don't think he started the game as a wolf. Most likely, he became one after N1, since his posting style for D1 and D2 are dramatically different.

----------


## flat_footed

> Does anyone have information that can confirm/deny Kraken's claim in some way?


I tracked Kraken last night and he did in fact target Ben. I have no other confirmation of them.

----------


## AvatarVecna



----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> A
> All in all, I think there are some things that give Kraken a bad look D2. The biggest for me are his real reluctance to vote Xi in light of AV's obvious suspicion there (and his own admitted revelation that roles are NAI) and the shade on Meta at EoD without moving a vote there. In a wolf!Kraken world, he could have assumed that Meta has a passive power to reduce votes on himself - which he might, as the Ambassador it would be a very fitting power to have - and thought that every vote away from Xi counted.


One of these things will be explained when I flip or tonight if I survive to see it.




> Furthermore, there is the matter of his claim as Lookout. His boon appears to be related to information somehow, which would account for some of what he supposedly knows. Correct me if I'm wrong though, but his 'Shout' power as described would essentially be jailing a player. The problem I see with this is that between the Barman (Hero) and the Judge (Corrupted) had a similar power. I'm wondering how likely it is that Rogan would put in what amounts to 3 separate jailer-type powers in a game of 21 people, with 2 on the Hero side.


It's not really a jail effect? It's conditional upon being harmed. If anything, it's analogous to the "Doctor" or "Medic" role you typically find in these games. 




> Persolus and Benoojian, were you aware of Kraken using his power on you? Did you get any feedback from Rogan that you were jailed? That would help us nail down how truthful he's being about it.


See Flat above, he can apparently confirm that I targeted Benoojian last night. I still don't trust him, but it's confirmed. 




> My working theory is that Kraken started the game as Tempted and is now Corrupted, btw. I don't think he started the game as a wolf. Most likely, he became one after N1, since his posting style for D1 and D2 are dramatically different.


If I'm Tempted - which, to be clear, I am not nor have ever been - then someone is lying about someone else being Tempted, or we have five neutrals. The math for this theory doesn't add up with what Rogan has explicitly stated.

----------


## flat_footed

>

----------


## Illven

So 3 starting wolves, 4 tempted (for three confirmed, and Kraken), at least 5 neutrals, and 9 towns

With the deaths so far we'd have 1 wolf, 2 tempted, 4 neutrals, and 7 towns.

Kraken is a wolf if we're correct, Illven and Snow are tempted, we got Rakkoon, Cazero, and Meta claiming neutral, we've got the mason brothers has confirmed town, batcathat was confirmed town (by who again? I got crap sleep last night)

That's 0 wolves, 0 tempted, 1 neutral, and 4 towns.

so Vecna, Ben, flat-footed, Perslous, 3 second cultist would be the remaining.


Any of you want to claim neutral?

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> So 3 starting wolves, 4 tempted (for three confirmed, and Kraken), at least 5 neutrals, and 9 towns
> 
> With the deaths so far we'd have 1 wolf, 2 tempted, 4 neutrals, and 7 towns.
> 
> Kraken is a wolf if we're correct, Illven and Snow are tempted, we got Rakkoon, Cazero, and Meta claiming neutral, we've got the mason brothers has confirmed town, batcathat was confirmed town (by who again? I got crap sleep last night)
> 
> That's 0 wolves, 0 tempted, 1 neutral, and 4 towns.
> 
> so Vecna, Ben, flat-footed, Perslous, 3 second cultist would be the remaining.
> ...


If there are four tempted, then there would have to be five neutrals. I am either Town, Neutral, or Wolf - unless someone is lying about you or Snow being Tempted, all the tempted slots have been locked. 

This is a question for everyone - of the people we suspect are town, who would we like to have confirmed as Town/Not Town?

----------


## Illven

> If there are four tempted, then there would have to be five neutrals. I am either Town, Neutral, or Wolf - unless someone is lying about you or Snow being Tempted, all the tempted slots have been locked. 
> 
> This is a question for everyone - of the people we suspect are town, who would we like to have confirmed as Town/Not Town?


As I said, 5 neutrals. Then we lost bookwombat, leaving us with 4.

3 people have claimed, there'd be one more neutral claim.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

Oh no, apparently I need to have gotten more sleep as well. You're suggesting that there were 3 wolves, 4 tempted, 5 neutrals, and 9 town. Got it. That could work. You're wrong about me though.

- - - Updated - - -

I can reveal my boon if necessary, it just makes it much more counterable and neutralizes its effectiveness. I would really prefer not to have to do this if I am still going to be lynched anyhow.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> I can reveal my boon if necessary, it just makes it much more counterable and neutralizes it. I would really prefer not to have to do this if I am still going to be lynched anyhow.


Two things to reply this:

1) I can more or less mech-prove to you that Im Prince (though I may need Allondos help to do it). Might not be able to do it until nighttime, though.

2) I have the power to save anyone from a lynch. If you share your boon later in the day and Im satisfied with your explanations (and other people clear you, etc), I can commute the lynch.

- - - Updated - - -

Doesnt mean I believe you, mind. But I really want to hear what other folks are thinking about your claim and the D2 ISO before I move ahead there.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Two things to reply this:
> 
> 1) I can more or less mech-prove to you that Im Prince (though I may need Allondos help to do it). Might not be able to do it until nighttime, though.
> 
> 2) I have the power to save anyone from a lynch. If you share your boon later in the day and Im satisfied with your explanations (and other people clear you, etc), I can commute the lynch.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Doesnt mean I believe you, mind. But I really want to hear what other folks are thinking about your claim and the D2 ISO before I move ahead there.


While that's a very useful tool to have in our back pocket (and, hm, similar to what happened with Xihirli? That still hasn't been explained), it would not affect whether I reveal my boon. I assume you have to commute before the results of the flip, yes?

----------


## Snowblaze

So we have three neutral claimants. For anyone else to be Tempted requires there to be another neutral out there, and I believe everyone other than Persolus is explicitly claiming not-neutral. 

*@Persolus* can you confirm whether or not you are a neutral?

If Ilven hasn't been corrupted then we started with four wolves, so we're dealing with one more initial wolf. This wolf is most likely in Let'sGetKraken/flat_footed, with an outside chance of 3SecondCultist and Persolus theoretically possible given... wait, no, not possible. 

Assuming no-one is a neutral claiming to be not-neutral, the existence of another Tempted implies neutral!Persolus and so Persolus can't be a wolf. 

Need to go check something, actually.

----------


## AvatarVecna

...I think it's time to drop the schtick, in no small part cuz it's stressing me out a lot. Might go back to it, but need a better way of communicating for at least one post.

*Spoiler: My perspective*
Show

Confirmed Truth: There are more neutrals than tempted. This is specifically true during N1. After asking, I'm to understand that a tempted's alignment would change to Corrupted for purposes of this count and my scry, so unless a tempted switched prior to N1, there's no way this is wrong.

Confirmed Truth: Caedorus, Metastachydium, and Snowblaze are all different alignments. I know Caedorus is Hero, but I don't know the other's alignments, not for absolute sure.

For some reason, in my notes file, I had Cazero listed as claimed tempted, but I didn't make note of who claimed that, and it was before today. Does that sound familiar to anybody, or was that probably just a guess on my part?

Confirmed IMO[/B]
3SecondCultist
Aleph Null
Allando
AvatarVecna
Batcathat
Benoojian
Caedorus
Lady Serpentine

bladescape

Book Wombat

Grand Arbiter
JeenLeen
Xihirli

*Claims*
flat_footed
Let'sGetKraken
Persolus

Illven
Snowblaze

Cazero
Metastachydium
Rakkoon


*Spoiler: Numbers*
Show

If I were balancing a game like this, I would want Corrupted to be underpowered by normal wolf team standards, but Corrupted+All Tempted to be overpowered. Expectation is 20-30% for scumteam. I would expect the game to start with at least 4 Corrupted (rough, but winnable with strong powers and clever plans even if no Tempted switch), and no more than 8 Corrupted+Tempted (which, if they all corrupted immediately, would be very rough but winnable for town, since that would be 13 Town/Neutral vs 8 Corrupted). To that end, since we only have 3 dead Corrupted and no claimants, at least one person in the claims section is lying, although that was kind of a given, since the game is still going.

We have one confirmed tempted, and two more that have been claimed as tempted in trustworthy ways, and the people accused of being tempted have not denied it, so I'm taking that as at least 3 tempted at game start. Thus, there cannot be more than 5 Corrupted at start of game. Illven has claimed to ask Rogan if there were 5 Corrupted at game start, and that Rogan said no.


We started with either 4 or 5 corrupted, and 3 tempted. I could see corrupted!Illven lying or telling the truth. I'm fairly certain tempted!Illven would tell the truth, and can't think of why she'd lie, but discounting the possibility makes me itchy. So, our possibilities:

1) Snow and Illven are uncorrupted, Illven is telling the truth. We have one corrupted.

2) Snow and Illven are uncorrupted, Illven is lying. We have two corrupted.

3) Snow is uncorrupted, Illven is corrupted, Illven is telling the truth. We have two corrupted (Illven+1).

4) Snow is uncorrupted, Illven is corrupted, Illven is lying. We have three corrupted (Illven+2).

5) Snow is corrupted, Illven is uncorrupted, Illven is telling the truth. We have two corrupted (Snow+1).

6) Snow is corrupted, Illven is uncorrupted, Illven is lying. We have three corrupted (Snow+2).

7) Snow and Illven are corrupted, Illven is telling the truth. We have three corrupted (Illven+Snow+1).

8) Snow and Illven are corrupted, Illven is lying. We have four corrupted (Illven+Snow+2).

Additionally, because of my information on neutrals vs tempted, either all current neutral claimants are telling the truth (in which case, the false claims are within the hero claims), or there is a corrupted claiming neutral and a neutral claiming hero.

----------


## Snowblaze

Okay, cool, Ilven claimed the numbers thing today so can't have been telling the truth about it at the time and then later been corrupted. So anyway, that's the first possibility.

Second is corrupted!Ilven. We could then have Ilven as last wolf, Ilven and one other in Kraken/flat/possibly 3SC, or Ilven and two others. At this point Kraken/Persolus does become theoretically possible.

- - - Updated - - -

Or: what AV said, except without the corrupted!me possibilities and discounting tempted!Ilven lying.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Okay, cool, Ilven claimed the numbers thing today so can't have been telling the truth about it at the time and then later been corrupted. So anyway, that's the first possibility.
> 
> Second is corrupted!Ilven. We could then have Ilven as last wolf, Ilven and one other in Kraken/flat/possibly 3SC, or Ilven and two others. At this point Kraken/Persolus does become theoretically possible.


Sounds like you lynch me, then, and my flip confirms two others. I'm not exactly happy about this (I have a strong protective role) but it seems like we're nearing the endgame at this point anyhow. In that case, I will let my flip reveal my boon.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Okay, cool, Ilven claimed the numbers thing today so can't have been telling the truth about it at the time and then later been corrupted. So anyway, that's the first possibility.
> 
> Second is corrupted!Ilven. We could then have Ilven as last wolf, Ilven and one other in Kraken/flat/possibly 3SC, or Ilven and two others. At this point Kraken/Persolus does become theoretically possible.


If there is one starting corrupted, they can't be Persolus. I could see corrupted!Kraken lying or telling the truth about hero!Persolus, but I don't see hero!Kraken telling us that corrupted!Persolus is a hero. Additionally, because of what I've confirmed with Rogan, if Snow was corrupted, then Meta can't be corrupted too.

Unless we have a better idea of who specifically is lying, the info lynches today are Kraken, Illven, or Snow.

----------


## Illven

Can you use a color besides yellow on green, it's hurting my eyes.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

As an addendum -

If we choose to lynch me for information, 3SecondCultist SHOULD NOT save me, as it would defeat the point, UNLESS he can do so after my alignment becomes public. Same goes for the executioner. At that point we have just wasted a day. 

If we choose to lynch someone else but can't get the votes for it for some reason (like people being inactive on the second half of the day), then 3SecondCultist SHOULD please save me because I don't want to die if we decide I shouldn't have to. 

Before any of that happens, though, I want to ask two questions to the confirmed town (one of which I have asked before):

1) Who would we want to confirm as either Town or Not Town (Tempted, Neutral, or Corrupted), if we could pick a single person? 
2) How did Xihirli persist until the end of the N2? Right now, my suspicions are on 3SecondCultist for claiming a power in a similar wheelhouse, but it could also been Benoojian or someone/something else.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Can you use a color besides yellow on green, it's hurting my eyes.


Deep orange better?

----------


## Illven

> Deep orange better?


Yes, thank you.

Also because I don't see a world where this game goes on and I survive till the end of day 4. I'm going to reveal my boon.

Creator of Civilisation: At the end of each phase you gain one point to spend on one of the following options:
Military Might: For every three points spent on this, you can survive one death
World Wonder: After spending seven points on this, you finish a world wonder and win the game, even if you would normally not do so. The game won't end and you may choose to continue playing.
Secret Science: For every four points spent on this, you may ask me a question about one mechanical aspect of the game and you will receive an answer. (Some questions might break the game or be problematic for other reasons. You may ask me for free if any question you would like to get answered is valid or not, but please don't abuse this)

I've been told for secret science once I set in my question, I will get an answer when Rogan gets to it, I don't need to wait till EoP.

I have 4 points, enough for 1 question, any suggestions?

I have been told that anything actively alignment indicating is not allowed.

I could check one of the assumptions however.

I _might_ be able to check if a tempted has converted?

I could check if one of our count starts is accurate. Possibly ask for the count start?

Also I've been told that Rogan will not literal genie my answers but doesn't accept responsibilities for misunderstandings.

----------


## Batcathat

> 1) Who would we want to confirm as either Town or Not Town (Tempted, Neutral, or Corrupted), if we could pick a single person?


My pick would probably be flat.

----------


## Cazero

Still got the feeling that there's room for more neutrals (thinking of the prince and his entourage here) and thus more tempted.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> As an addendum -
> 
> If we choose to lynch me for information, 3SecondCultist SHOULD NOT save me, as it would defeat the point, UNLESS he can do so after my alignment becomes public. Same goes for the executioner. At that point we have just wasted a day. 
> 
> If we choose to lynch someone else but can't get the votes for it for some reason (like people being inactive on the second half of the day), then 3SecondCultist SHOULD please save me because I don't want to die if we decide I shouldn't have to. 
> 
> Before any of that happens, though, I want to ask two questions to the confirmed town (one of which I have asked before):
> 
> 1) Who would we want to confirm as either Town or Not Town (Tempted, Neutral, or Corrupted), if we could pick a single person? 
> 2) How did Xihirli persist until the end of the N2? Right now, my suspicions are on 3SecondCultist for claiming a power in a similar wheelhouse, but it could also been Benoojian or someone/something else.


Here's my power, for clarification:

*Royal Holiday:* Once per game, you may announce a royal holiday. There will be no execution this day.

Based on answers Rogan has given me about how my power works, I do think my using it and a flip are mutually exclusive. He told me that I could invoke it in private and the holiday would be revealed in the EoD post, which leads me to believe that I would just straight up cancel the lynch. I haven't used it at all yet, and it would be a big announcement from the narrator that the Prince has declared a royal holiday.

To your points: if I believe there is a stronger case for flat but people are inactive etc, and it really does look like you're town, then I'll step in at the last second. Same in reverse, if I think a bunch of people are still on flat and you're the one it comes down to.

Finally, answering your question would be *YOU*, but I don't think it's going to be super trustworthy to everyone if you use an info-gathering boon on yourself.

Basically, the POE is Kraken/flat right now, with maybe Illven as the other. AV is right that we should lynch one of those few.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Yes, thank you.
> 
> Also because I don't see a world where this game goes on and I survive till the end of day 4. I'm going to reveal my boon.
> 
> Creator of Civilisation: At the end of each phase you gain one point to spend on one of the following options:
> Military Might: For every three points spent on this, you can survive one death
> World Wonder: After spending seven points on this, you finish a world wonder and win the game, even if you would normally not do so. The game won't end and you may choose to continue playing.
> Secret Science: For every four points spent on this, you may ask me a question about one mechanical aspect of the game and you will receive an answer. (Some questions might break the game or be problematic for other reasons. You may ask me for free if any question you would like to get answered is valid or not, but please don't abuse this)
> 
> ...


I want to clarify: you can ask a question now, and get an answer before EoD?

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Yes, thank you.
> 
> Also because I don't see a world where this game goes on and I survive till the end of day 4. I'm going to reveal my boon.
> 
> Creator of Civilisation: At the end of each phase you gain one point to spend on one of the following options:
> Military Might: For every three points spent on this, you can survive one death
> World Wonder: After spending seven points on this, you finish a world wonder and win the game, even if you would normally not do so. The game won't end and you may choose to continue playing.
> Secret Science: For every four points spent on this, you may ask me a question about one mechanical aspect of the game and you will receive an answer. (Some questions might break the game or be problematic for other reasons. You may ask me for free if any question you would like to get answered is valid or not, but please don't abuse this)
> 
> ...


Is the response public or private?

"Was the Lookout a Heroic role when it was assigned" is mechanical enough and would confirm myself and Persolus to boot. 

"Which players had the ability to extend Xihirli's life" would give us the last Corrupted, probably. 

Hell, if you're Corrupted already and potentially want to townside - just save those points for a wonder and we can just have the game go on another turn and a half before lynching you and let you townside (I'm asking Rogan if this is possible now).

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> I could check if one of our count starts is accurate. Possibly ask for the count start?
> 
> Also I've been told that Rogan will not literal genie my answers but doesn't accept responsibilities for misunderstandings.


This one.

I assume that means that you will be the one posting the vote count here on Rogan's behalf? As one of the last realistic Corrupted candidates, it's definitely going to have to come with a grain of salt.

----------


## Illven

> I want to clarify: you can ask a question now, and get an answer before EoD?


Yes I will get it, as soon as Rogan gets to it.

- - - Updated - - -




> Is the response public or private?
> 
> "Was the Lookout a Heroic role when it was assigned" is mechanical enough and would confirm myself and Persolus to boot. 
> 
> "Which players had the ability to extend Xihirli's life" would give us the last Corrupted, probably. 
> 
> Hell, if you're Corrupted already and potentially want to townside - just save those points for a wonder and we can just have the game go on another turn and a half before lynching you and let you townside (I'm asking Rogan if this is possible now).


It is unfortunately private. At that point I figure you kill me, I flip as tempted and you use my knowledge for good.




> This one.
> 
> I assume that means that you will be the one posting the vote count here on Rogan's behalf? As one of the last realistic Corrupted candidates, it's definitely going to have to come with a grain of salt.


Yes I would be the one posting.

----------


## Batcathat

Assuming Illven is honest, I wonder if it would be worth it for her to ask about the wolves alternate wincon? It almost certainly won't help find any wolves and it might not be allowed (since the rules specifically says it will be revealed after the game), but knowing it might help prevent some sort of surprise wolf win.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Yes I will get it, as soon as Rogan gets to it.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> 
> It is unfortunately private. At that point I figure you kill me, I flip as tempted and you use my knowledge for good.
> 
> 
> ...


Alright, so if you're currently uncorrupted, you can win with town, and thus it's in your best interest to cooperate. You ask a question that checks Let'sGetKraken, get the answer, share the answer with us, and then we lynch you. That gives us your alignment, and thus probably whether you were lying about the answers to those questions (or even what questions you asked at all). If you are corrupted, we've caught a corrupted and narrowed down a bunch of possibilities you were a requirement for. If you're uncorrupted, we've narrowed down most of the possibilities.

EDIT: And of course, if you don't cooperate, we assume it's because you're corrupted not wanting to make things easier on us, in which case we lynch you anyway.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Alright, so if you're currently uncorrupted, you can win with town, and thus it's in your best interest to cooperate. You ask a question that checks Let'sGetKraken, get the answer, share the answer with us, and then we lynch you. That gives us your alignment, and thus probably whether you were lying about the answers to those questions (or even what questions you asked at all). If you are corrupted, we've caught a corrupted and narrowed down a bunch of possibilities you were a requirement for. If you're uncorrupted, we've narrowed down most of the possibilities.


I agree with this plan, but Illven specifically mentioned that the question can't confirm alignment. If we can think of a clever way of confirming me, though, I am all for this.

----------


## Illven

> Alright, so if you're currently uncorrupted, you can win with town, and thus it's in your best interest to cooperate. You ask a question that checks Let'sGetKraken, get the answer, share the answer with us, and then we lynch you. That gives us your alignment, and thus probably whether you were lying about the answers to those questions (or even what questions you asked at all). If you are corrupted, we've caught a corrupted and narrowed down a bunch of possibilities you were a requirement for. If you're uncorrupted, we've narrowed down most of the possibilities.
> 
> EDIT: And of course, if you don't cooperate, we assume it's because you're corrupted not wanting to make things easier on us, in which case we lynch you anyway.


I would prefer to live.

But "ROYAL DUTY DEMANDS THAT I GIVE UP MY LIFE FOR THE GREATER GOOD TO STOP THIS DEVIL INCURSION" 

My concern is, what question checks Let'sGetKraken without it being alignment indicative?

----------


## AvatarVecna

> I would prefer to live.
> 
> But "ROYAL DUTY DEMANDS THAT I GIVE UP MY LIFE FOR THE GREATER GOOD TO STOP THIS DEVIL INCURSION" 
> 
> My concern is, what question checks Let'sGetKraken without it being alignment indicative?


Are you limited to yes/no questions, or can you ask for numbers? You asked before if the game started with 5 corrupted, so questions can involve alignment even if they don't directly reveal it.

----------


## Batcathat

Maybe the question could be something like "Did X number of Corrupted vote for person Y?" or something like that? We know or strongly suspect a lot of people's alignment, so we could probably piece something together.

----------


## Persolus

Sorry for not being more active, I'd just like to say that I _know_ that at least one out of Illven, 3SC and Benoojian is not corrupted.

----------


## Batcathat

For example, Kraken, Caedorus and I voted to lynch Persolus at the end of D1. We know Caedorus and I are town, if Illven can ask "Did any Corrupted vote for Persolus at the end of D1?" that could confirm Kraken.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Maybe the question could be something like "Did X number of Corrupted vote for person Y?" or something like that? We know or strongly suspect a lot of people's alignment, so we could probably piece something together.


If we're really confident on this:




> *Confirmed IMO*
> 3SecondCultist
> Aleph Null
> Allando
> AvatarVecna
> Batcathat
> Benoojian
> Caedorus
> Lady Serpentine


Then here's a yes/no question we could ask: did this game start with an even number of heroes?

----------


## Batcathat

Of course, Kraken was also the only one to vote blade at the end of D2, so that'd be even easier if that kind of question is allowed.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> If we're really confident on this:
> 
> 
> 
> Then here's a yes/no question we could ask: did this game start with an even number of heroes?


Heck, that kinda question is still pretty great to get an answer to even if you're unsure of some names on that list (I'm still kinda iffy about you, and I bet people are iffy about me).

----------


## Illven

> Are you limited to yes/no questions, or can you ask for numbers? You asked before if the game started with 5 corrupted, so questions can involve alignment even if they don't directly reveal it.


That's a different power

Cards on the table, my tempted card is.

The Sage
You are the Sage, tempted. You win when the town is save again, unless you become corrupted.
You have always been fascinated by stories of good and evil and you have amassed a treasure of knowledge about them. You will intuitively manage to figure out the grain of truth hidden in such stories. But be careful, as some things may corrupt!
Secret Knowledge: Each night, you may ask the narrator two questions about the mechanics of the game. You will receive an answer of yes or no. If such an answer would be misleading, you might receive a small hint about this. You may not ask about the alignment of players. (Example questions: Is there a fool in the game? No!; Is this a cult game? No, but)
Common Knowledge: Each night, you may send the narrator a short text, which will be published as a message from the sage. You can write whatever you like, but I wont confirm any information included.
Corrupting Knowledge: If you use your Secret Knowledge power three times, you will get corrupted.

I used secret knowledge once last night.

I asked. Did the game start with 5 corrupted. I already told you the answer.
And the second question I settled on, was we eventually talked it out to Question 2. Is every tempted, 100% able to make the choice to switch? (Option of being forced by other players or having powers which can cause corruption, depending on things outside of their control => No, otherwise yes) 

I can use it one more time, I didn't use ANY powers night 1. 

Secret knowledge is given at the end of the night.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Of course, Kraken was also the only one to vote blade at the end of D2, so that'd be even easier if that kind of question is allowed.


"Did any Tempted, Corrupted, or Neutrals vote for Bladescape in the final, pre-power/boon vote count of D2?" would clear me as definitely as I think we could.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> That's a different power
> 
> Cards on the table, my tempted card is.
> 
> The Sage
> You are the Sage, tempted. You win when the town is save again, unless you become corrupted.
> You have always been fascinated by stories of good and evil and you have amassed a treasure of knowledge about them. You will intuitively manage to figure out the grain of truth hidden in such stories. But be careful, as some things may corrupt!
> Secret Knowledge: Each night, you may ask the narrator two questions about the mechanics of the game. You will receive an answer of yes or no. If such an answer would be misleading, you might receive a small hint about this. You may not ask about the alignment of players. (Example questions: Is there a fool in the game? No!; Is this a cult game? No, but)
> Common Knowledge: Each night, you may send the narrator a short text, which will be published as a message from the sage. You can write whatever you like, but I wont confirm any information included.
> ...


So your boon question can be more open-ended instead of just a yes/no question?

----------


## Illven

> So your boon question can be more open-ended instead of just a yes/no question?


Yes, I get a full no bull****, total explanation. It just can't be game breaking.

----------


## Batcathat

> Yes, I get a full no bull****, total explanation. It just can't be game breaking.


So do you think something like one of the suggested vote questions would be allowed?

----------


## Illven

> So do you think something like one of the suggested vote questions would be allowed?


I imagine most of them? I don't see what's inherently broken about an alignment count.

----------


## AvatarVecna

"What was the alignment distribution at the start of the game?"

EDIT: Like, the number of each alignment, I mean.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

Asking the question about Kraken will potentially end the game today or tomorrow. If it really is permitted, then I see three possible scenarios:

1) You are being honest, ask Rogan, and get a definite No answer. By process of elimination, flat is the only realistic wolf candidate left and we lynch him today to win.

2) You are lying, pretend to ask Rogan or dissemble, and give us a Yes answer to implicate Kraken in a lie. We lynch him, he flips Hero, and we lynch you tomorrow.

3) You are being honest, ask Rogan, and get a definite Yes answer to implicate him in a lie. We lynch him today to win.

- - - Updated - - -




> "Did any Tempted, Corrupted, or Neutrals vote for Bladescape in the final, pre-power/boon vote count of D2?" would clear me as definitely as I think we could.


To be clear, this is the question I am referring to.

- - - Updated - - -

And there is a big assumption here that flat is the only realistic wolf candidate outside of Kraken/Illven. But I just dont see anyone else being Corrupted at this point.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Asking the question about Kraken will potentially end the game today or tomorrow. If it really is permitted, then I see three possible scenarios:
> 
> 1) You are being honest, ask Rogan, and get a definite No answer. By process of elimination, flat is the only realistic wolf candidate left and we lynch him today to win.
> 
> 2) You are lying, pretend to ask Rogan or dissemble, and give us a Yes answer to implicate Kraken in a lie. We lynch him, he flips Hero, and we lynch you tomorrow.
> 
> 3) You are being honest, ask Rogan, and get a definite Yes answer to implicate him in a lie. We lynch him today to win.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> ...


I agree with this. We can have Illven ask two more mechanical questions tonight to sus out the number of corrupted, as well, if the game doesn't end.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Asking the question about Kraken will potentially end the game today or tomorrow. If it really is permitted, then I see three possible scenarios:
> 
> 1) You are being honest, ask Rogan, and get a definite No answer. By process of elimination, flat is the only realistic wolf candidate left and we lynch him today to win.
> 
> 2) You are lying, pretend to ask Rogan or dissemble, and give us a Yes answer to implicate Kraken in a lie. We lynch him, he flips Hero, and we lynch you tomorrow.
> 
> 3) You are being honest, ask Rogan, and get a definite Yes answer to implicate him in a lie. We lynch him today to win.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> ...


I mean, regardless of whether Illven answers the question honestly or not, we're lynching her today. Right now, lynching Illven checks two things:

1) Illven's alignment
2) Can we trust her "we started with 4 wolves" answer?

If Illven asks the question, and gives us the answer, we still don't know if we can trust her answer, or her previous answer. We still need to lynch her, but now:

3) Can we trust her "is Kraken town" answer?

We're lynching Illven regardless, because lynching Illven either immediately catches one corrupted and narrows down a bunch of possibilities, or lynching Illven catches a tempted, and we've basically solved the game.

----------


## Illven

I demand a statue in my honor!  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> I mean, regardless of whether Illven answers the question honestly or not, we're lynching her today. Right now, lynching Illven checks two things:
> 
> 1) Illven's alignment
> 2) Can we trust her "we started with 4 wolves" answer?
> 
> If Illven asks the question, and gives us the answer, we still don't know if we can trust her answer, or her previous answer. We still need to lynch her, but now:
> 
> 3) Can we trust her "is Kraken town" answer?
> 
> We're lynching Illven regardless, because lynching Illven either immediately catches one corrupted and narrows down a bunch of possibilities, or lynching Illven catches a tempted, and we've basically solved the game.


Okay, so then we're committed to Illven checking my alignment? This is my preference. In that case, let's workshop wording/mechanisms. I've suggested two:

-Asking whether the Lookout/Shout were assigned to a Hero at game start
-Asking whether or not any Tempted, Neutrals, or Corrupted voted for Bladescape D2 before powers/boons were applied

- - - Updated - - -

It'll be a huge statue!

----------


## Allando

> So 3 starting wolves, 4 tempted (for three confirmed, and Kraken), at least 5 neutrals, and 9 towns
> 
> With the deaths so far we'd have 1 wolf, 2 tempted, 4 neutrals, and 7 towns.
> 
> Kraken is a wolf if we're correct, Illven and Snow are tempted, we got Rakkoon, Cazero, and Meta claiming neutral, we've got the mason brothers has confirmed town, batcathat was confirmed town (by who again? I got crap sleep last night)
> 
> That's 0 wolves, 0 tempted, 1 neutral, and 4 towns.
> 
> so Vecna, Ben, flat-footed, Perslous, 3 second cultist would be the remaining.
> ...





> Two things to reply this:
> 
> 1) I can more or less mech-prove to you that Im Prince (though I may need Allondos help to do it). Might not be able to do it until nighttime, though.
> 
> 2) I have the power to save anyone from a lynch. If you share your boon later in the day and Im satisfied with your explanations (and other people clear you, etc), I can commute the lynch.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Doesnt mean I believe you, mind. But I really want to hear what other folks are thinking about your claim and the D2 ISO before I move ahead there.





> Sorry for not being more active, I'd just like to say that I _know_ that at least one out of Illven, 3SC and Benoojian is not corrupted.


Cultist is the prince yeah, if I tinfoil enough the prince is tempted but if he can save anyone from a lynch I don't think so

----------


## Batcathat

> I demand a statue in my honor!


Since my knowledge of statue design is a little non-existent, I asked an AI for help.



I'm really curious where it got... I think it says "Hot livin' " from... 




> Okay, so then we're committed to Illven checking my alignment? This is my preference. In that case, let's workshop wording/mechanisms. I've suggested two:
> 
> -Asking whether the Lookout/Shout were assigned to a Hero at game start
> -Asking whether or not any Tempted, Neutrals, or Corrupted voted for Bladescape D2 before powers/boons were applied


I agree that Illven checking your alignment is a good choice and would prefer the second question or some version of it, since votes are public knowledge but roles are not (of course, if you just made up a fake claim, the answer to the question should still be "no", but still.)

----------


## Benoojian

> As an addendum -
> 
> If we choose to lynch me for information, 3SecondCultist SHOULD NOT save me, as it would defeat the point, UNLESS he can do so after my alignment becomes public. Same goes for the executioner. At that point we have just wasted a day. 
> 
> If we choose to lynch someone else but can't get the votes for it for some reason (like people being inactive on the second half of the day), then 3SecondCultist SHOULD please save me because I don't want to die if we decide I shouldn't have to. 
> 
> Before any of that happens, though, I want to ask two questions to the confirmed town (one of which I have asked before):
> 
> 1) Who would we want to confirm as either Town or Not Town (Tempted, Neutral, or Corrupted), if we could pick a single person? 
> 2) How did Xihirli persist until the end of the N2? Right now, my suspicions are on 3SecondCultist for claiming a power in a similar wheelhouse, but it could also been Benoojian or someone/something else.


Oh, I get a private chat with the lynched person and they don't technically die until morning, regardless of whether my power is ready to use again yet. I think it's late enough that I can share that.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Oh, I get a private chat with the lynched person and they don't technically die until morning, regardless of whether my power is ready to use again yet. I think it's late enough that I can share that.


Oh! So is that what happened with Xihirli? 

In that case I am much less suspicious of 3SecondCultist.

----------


## Illven

> I agree that Illven checking your alignment is a good choice and would prefer the second question or some version of it, since votes are public knowledge but roles are not (of course, if you just made up a fake claim, the answer to the question should still be "no", but still.)


A thought occurs.

We know Bladescape had a sercet vote power.

Do we know he's the only one? Cause I'm not sure how that would interact with a private vote switch.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> A thought occurs.
> 
> We know Bladescape had a sercet vote power.
> 
> Do we know he's the only one?


That's why I'm suggesting that we word the question so that it specifies the vote count before powers/boons are applied.

----------


## Cazero

Obviously, no. Somebody's been messing with votes totals and nobody claimed a thing about it.

- - - Updated - - -

I meant no to Illven's question, not Kraken's idea.

----------


## Benoojian

> A thought occurs.
> 
> We know Bladescape had a sercet vote power.
> 
> Do we know he's the only one? Cause I'm not sure how that would interact with a private vote switch.


We know he is NOT the only one, and no one else has admitted to being the second vote manipulation power.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> We know he is NOT the only one, and no one else has admitted to being the second vote manipulation power.


Flat_footed has admitted to being a second but claims to not have used it. So there is potentially a third.

----------


## Batcathat

I suppose there's no reason not to share this. To use one of my powers, I had to forfeit my vote for a day, which I did both D1 and D2. Which explains why there was one vote on Persolus missing, but somehow the number of votes for Xi added up (I'm guessing that was blade, do we know that for sure?)

There's still one vote manipulation for D1 unaccounted for, if I remember correctly.

----------


## Benoojian

If none of the Tempted Corrupted D1, then all the Neutrals are clear.

However, Snowblaze admitted to TRYING her trigger. Is there any evidence that she successfully set up the lovers chat with bladescape instead of being rejected, since she only claimed after his death. If this actually happened D1, then the Tempted count was 2 at the time of AV's prediction and one of the Neutrals could be the final Corrupted instead of the Kraken/flat/3SC pairing.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> I suppose there's no reason not to share this. To use one of my powers, I had to forfeit my vote for a day, which I did both D1 and D2. Which explains why there was one vote on Persolus missing, but somehow the number of votes for Xi added up (I'm guessing that was blade, do we know that for sure?)
> 
> There's still one vote manipulation for D1 unaccounted for, if I remember correctly.


Oh ****. Persolus is NOT cleared.

- - - Updated - - -

If this is true, in the absence of other D1 vote manipulation powers, Persolus is lying about being a hero.

----------


## Benoojian

> Oh ****. Persolus is NOT cleared.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> If this is true, in the absence of other D1 vote manipulation powers, Persolus is lying about being a hero.


That is a weirdly specific new claim, care to elaborate?

----------


## Illven

Vecna, you said the people you scry look different. Are they colors? If so do the colors coordinate with the post 1 flipped colors?

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> That is a weirdly specific new claim, care to elaborate?


Yeah, since I've already hinted at it with this and now I think it's relevant.

My boon goes back to Mysterium Mafia, where I ruthlessly bussed Gac into a victory (with his consent, mind you). 

*"Don't worry, you'll survive this bus"*: When you vote for someone of your own alignment, your vote won't count. (I specified with Rogan that this ONLY counts Heroes). 

So I voted for Persolus D1, as he was suspicious but not the leading wagon. When three of us voted for him and the final votecount was at two, I thought that meant that he was also a Hero. Hence him being cleared. 

I hopped off the Meta wagon D2 to vote for Bladescape - and my vote counted. So I knew Bladescape was Tempted, Neutral, or a Wolf. 

But now that Bat has claimed that his vote didn't count D1... Persolus should have had *one* vote on him D1 after powers were applied, not two... unless he isn't actually a hero. 

I didn't want to reveal this because flat - who is one of the wolf suspects - has access to a vote-manipulation power, by his own admission. But I think this is important enough information to reveal at this point, *as Persolus is no longer cleared by me*. I hope this also explains why I was willing to die today (because I could use my vote to potentially clear or damn someone claiming Hero), and why I kept asking people to look at my boon after I died.

----------


## Batcathat

> I didn't want to reveal this because flat - who is one of the wolf suspects - has access to a vote-manipulation power, by his own admission. But I think this is important enough information to reveal at this point, *as Persolus is no longer cleared by me*. I hope this also explains why I was willing to die today (because I could use my vote to potentially clear or damn someone claiming Hero), and why I kept asking people to look at my boon after I died.


Very interesting. Yes, my vote definitely didn't count, so unless some third party messed with the votes your vote almost certainly did.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Vecna, you said the people you scry look different. Are they colors? If so do the colors coordinate with the post 1 flipped colors?


I am told the number of alignments I detected among the people I scried, but not which alignments. N1 I scried xihirli and flat and was told "two alignments"...but targeting Xi redirects to a random player, so that info is useless. N2 I targeted Caed and Meta, and was told "three alignments", which I thought was potentially useful but I really needed an explanation for, and I couldn't trust any explanation I got if I told them what I was looking for since wolves could just lie.

----------


## Benoojian

So we're back to the Tempted are probably telling the truth  and the last wolf is in kraken/persolus/flat?

----------


## Cazero

Apparently I can see this game going to day 5 still. Won't elaborate much on it, but I'm afraid I won't be as helpful as I could.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

This also means that clearing me is no longer the best play, since it doesn't clear Persolus. We're better off asking number questions, like AV's about the alignment count at the start.

----------


## Benoojian

> I am told the number of alignments I detected among the people I scried, but not which alignments. N1 I scried xihirli and flat and was told "two alignments"...but targeting Xi redirects to a random player, so that info is useless. N2 I targeted Caed and Meta, and was told "three alignments", which I thought was potentially useful but I really needed an explanation for, and I couldn't trust any explanation I got if I told them what I was looking for since wolves could just lie.


That is something 

Cae is hero regardless so
1.Meta is Neutral, Snow is Tempted or Corrupted 
2.Meta is Corrupted, Snow is still Tempted
It means that Meta and Snow can't be both EVIL, so even if Snow Corrupted d1 and messed up our numbers, Meta is clear, so logically scenario 2 is impossible.
I'd rather get info on Snow, but a mechanical clear of a Neutral is still progress.

----------


## Metastachydium

> but somehow the number of votes for Xi added up (I'm guessing that was blade, do we know that for sure?)


That is correct. In our private Love Triangle chat with Snow and Blade, he explained to me almost immediately that I was never truly at risk at dying, because he was voting Xi rather than me. This is why I cryptically said "_there is another_" N2: Blade transferred his vote to Xi, but it wasn't added to the count.

- - - Updated - - -

Or, rather, it was added, but Batcathat's got subtracted then. You get the gist of it.

----------


## Cazero

And here I thought it was something simple and straightforward you can figure out just by checking the numbers and the names. Like flat having the power to remove one vote from the top competing wagon to his vote.

----------


## Illven

Alternatively, brilliant idea. Operation Iron Freedom.

I ask my question about Kraken.

If I am told they are a wolf, we kill them. We win.
If I am told they are not a wolf, we don't lynch? [Would a no lynch overwhelm a one lynch margin.]
That night, Vecna tests Flat's claim of hero against Caedrous our confirmed hero. We try to think of yes or no questions that'll narrow down our suspect pool between the two.

One of us dies. The other outs the wolf.

----------


## Metastachydium

Oh, and a link to the "there's another" post, in case anyone has doubts.

----------


## Benoojian

> That is correct. In our private Love Triangle chat with Snow and Blade, he explained to me almost immediately that I was never truly at risk at dying, because he was voting Xi rather than me. This is why I cryptically said "_there is another_" N2: Blade transferred his vote to Xi, but it wasn't added to the count.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Or, rather, it was added, but Batcathat's got subtracted then. You get the gist of it.


Oh, Meta confirms that Snow's offer was accepted not rejected, that sorta-confirms the Tempted count n1 and clears all the Neutrals. 

Unvote Meta
flat_footed

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Alternatively, brilliant idea. Operation Iron Freedom.
> 
> I ask my question about Kraken.
> 
> If I am told they are a wolf, we kill them. We win.
> If I am told they are not a wolf, we don't lynch? [Would a no lynch overwhelm a one lynch margin.]
> That night, Vecna tests Flat's claim of hero against Caedrous our confirmed hero. We try to think of yes or no questions that'll narrow down our suspect pool between the two.
> 
> One of us dies. The other outs the wolf.


Issue with that is that Persolus is back in contention now - and also the Corrupted get a kill tonight.

- - - Updated - - -




> Oh, Meta confirms that Snow's offer was accepted not rejected, that sorta-confirms the Tempted count n1 and clears all the Neutrals. 
> 
> Unvote Meta
> flat_footed


We're also assuming that Snow is telling the truth about her Coruption mechanic.

----------


## Persolus

Okay, so my Boon involves some screwing with my own vote count, but I don't quite know how it applies.

----------


## Snowblaze

> If none of the Tempted Corrupted D1, then all the Neutrals are clear.
> 
> However, Snowblaze admitted to TRYING her trigger. Is there any evidence that she successfully set up the lovers chat with bladescape instead of being rejected, since she only claimed after his death. If this actually happened D1, then the Tempted count was 2 at the time of AV's prediction and one of the Neutrals could be the final Corrupted instead of the Kraken/flat/3SC pairing.


I mean, Love Song is a night action so I definitely couldn't have been Corrupted D1. And also bladescape had D2 to decide. 

Evidence in my favour: Meta is confirming the chat's existence, and also I told the masons about bladescape's vote manipulation in my message sent before he died. (I was keeping that one a secret in case any wolves slipped up in fakeclaiming a vote manipulation power). 

I don't mind if you want Ilven to check me, though. Probably best to have the half-cleared people fully cleared.

Persolus not actually being cleared is duly noted. Add him to the list of "people I would like to fullclaim".

----------


## Batcathat

> It means that Meta and Snow can't be both EVIL, so even if Snow Corrupted d1 and messed up our numbers, Meta is clear, so logically scenario 2 is impossible.


Snow was not corrupted by D1, at least.

----------


## Benoojian

> We're also assuming that Snow is telling the truth about her Coruption mechanic.


I'm actually assuming that she lied and actually converted when her lover died, but that there's still another starting Corrupted. That still means she didn't convert d1.
Someone else having the choice about your trigger sounds too easy, who is going to say "no, I don't want a bonus chat room"

----------


## Snowblaze

> I'm actually assuming that she lied and actually converted when her lover died, but that there's still another starting Corrupted. That still means she didn't convert d1.
> Someone else having the choice about your trigger sounds too easy, who is going to say "no, I don't want a bonus chat room"


To clarify: bladescape wasn't actually told the conditions of what happened. He knew I was declaring love to him and got a message from me saying "if you accept we get a private chat, please don't reject it" but had no proof of that.

Also: a Corrupted who guesses that rejection is my corruption condition or would otherwise screw me over.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Okay, so my Boon involves some screwing with my own vote count, but I don't quite know how it applies.


Wow so believable and convenient

----------


## Illven

> Issue with that is that Persolus is back in contention now - and also the Corrupted get a kill tonight.


Yes, if you and flat footed get cleared we lynch persolus start of day tomorrow.

----------


## Metastachydium

Oh, and a VERY important thing before I'd forget.




> _"We all make mistakes", the Knight said. "Some graver than others. Look at the bright side... I have saved you from the potential hurt of watching the man you loved slowly give in to corruption. My duty, as Knight, is to protect this town and all it's inhabitants. However, I also have a sense of honour. When my brother was saved from death, he agreed to remove your love from this town to the executioner... I was honourbound to fullfill  his promise."
> He smiles. "Do not worry. There will be others. After we deal with the threat at hand, that is."
> With that, he slowly walks a ways away, back to his cart. From the cart, he removes a tombstone and a bouquet of pretty flowers.
> "For your sacrifice, Bladescape, Alchemist of this town. You died so others might live. May you rest in peace."_


The Flower stared at the Knight in disbelief. Well. By the heavens, I have had the _pleasure_ to enjoy the company of many a difficult man. the little plant said, the square stem straightening. But you must be the single most _tactless_ person I have ever encountered, young Sir. That nerve! He could have at least waited a while before _whipping out a bundle of dead flowers_.

----------


## Benoojian

> Okay, so my Boon involves some screwing with my own vote count, but I don't quite know how it applies.


I'm sorry, you are claiming a boon that adds votes to YOURSELF?
*Unvote flat
Persolus*

----------


## Metastachydium

> To clarify: bladescape wasn't actually told the conditions of what happened. He knew I was declaring love to him and got a message from me saying "if you accept we get a private chat, please don't reject it" but had no proof of that.


It also apparently told him that _I_, the one player he paraded as hounding all game was, for some reason, singing along with Snow's serenade.

----------


## Batcathat

> Wow so believable and convenient


Mm. 

Though it would be pretty funny if three separate vote manipulation powers affected a single wagon and one that wasn't even the front runner.  :Small Tongue: 

That said, I would be quite alright with lynching Persolus (though that would mean no confirming Illven's answer right away, of course).

----------


## AvatarVecna

> I'm sorry, you are claiming a boon that adds votes to YOURSELF?
> *Unvote flat
> Persolus*


Lol.
Lmao.

----------


## Persolus

> I'm sorry, you are claiming a boon that adds votes to YOURSELF?
> *Unvote flat
> Persolus*


Nope. My Boon is "My Name is Persolus, and I Think You Shouldn't Kill Me Day 1"

It means that I literally could not die D1, and then Rogan said he thought it was underpowered in relation to other boons, so he gave me "some sort of vote protection." The issue is, i don't know if that applied to D1 or not; it might even involve overruling one of Boon or Role powers. AV, did Rogan explicitly state that your power was taken into account D1?

----------


## Snowblaze

So. Wait. If BCH's Persolus vote didn't count, doesn't that mean Kraken's did, and therefore Kraken and Persolus are not the same alignment? And therefore since it's highly unlikely either is neutral or tempted one or other of them is a wolf?

----------


## Illven

*Persolus*

I still want to use my power in some way.

Weather's that's the secret science one. or Military might to ensure I survive and use the two yes or no questions.

----------


## Batcathat

> So. Wait. If BCH's Persolus vote didn't count, doesn't that mean Kraken's did, and therefore Kraken and Persolus are not the same alignment? And therefore since it's highly unlikely either is neutral or tempted one or other of them is a wolf?


Right, wasn't that the entire point of what Kraken was saying?

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> So. Wait. If BCH's Persolus vote didn't count, doesn't that mean Kraken's did, and therefore Kraken and Persolus are not the same alignment? And therefore since it's highly unlikely either is neutral or tempted one or other of them is a wolf?


Yes, that is what I'm saying. In the absence of something else increasing the vote count on Persolus, this is pretty damning evidence that BOTH of us aren't heroes.... or that Blade moved his vote, or that BatCatHat is lying.

----------


## Snowblaze

> Nope. My Boon is "My Name is Persolus, and I Think You Shouldn't Kill Me Day 1"
> 
> It means that I literally could not die D1, and then Rogan said he thought it was underpowered in relation to other boons, so he gave me "some sort of vote protection." The issue is, i don't know if that applied to D1 or not; it might even involve overruling one of Boon or Role powers. AV, did Rogan explicitly state that your power was taken into account D1?


_sceptical noises_

Also, trust me, your boon is not underpowered in relation to mine.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Nope. My Boon is "My Name is Persolus, and I Think You Shouldn't Kill Me Day 1"
> 
> It means that I literally could not die D1, and then Rogan said he thought it was underpowered in relation to other boons, so he gave me "some sort of vote protection." The issue is, i don't know if that applied to D1 or not; it might even involve overruling one of Boon or Role powers. AV, did Rogan explicitly state that your power was taken into account D1?


Given that I'm trusted and you're not, I'd prefer you gave a full claim instead of interrogating me. Suffice to say, I'm pretty sure none of my stuff affected anybody D1, but maybe if you give a full verbatim quote, I could explain how boon mightve screwed you over.

But I'm pretty sure it didnt.

----------


## Snowblaze

> Yes, that is what I'm saying. In the absence of something else increasing the vote count on Persolus, this is pretty damning evidence that BOTH of us aren't heroes.... or that Blade moved his vote, or that BatCatHat is lying.


And look which idiot forgot to ask bladescape who he actually voted D1 and now can't because he's dead.

----------


## Cazero

> Yes, that is what I'm saying. In the absence of something else increasing the vote count on Persolus, this is pretty damning evidence that BOTH of us aren't heroes.... or that Blade moved his vote, or that BatCatHat is lying.


If blade moved his vote, it would have triggered a vote discrepancy elsewhere.

----------


## Benoojian

> Nope. My Boon is "My Name is Persolus, and I Think You Shouldn't Kill Me Day 1"
> 
> It means that I literally could not die D1, and then Rogan said he thought it was underpowered in relation to other boons, so he gave me "some sort of vote protection." The issue is, i don't know if that applied to D1 or not; it might even involve overruling one of Boon or Role powers. AV, did Rogan explicitly state that your power was taken into account D1?


The problem is, you have one more vote than you're supposed to have, not one less, unless bat or Kraken is lying (or God forbid there's a 5th hidden vote manipulator) so Kraken/Persolus contains a wolf.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> If blade moved his vote, it would have triggered a vote discrepancy elsewhere.


There was a vote discrepancy on Meta as well, no? Was that accounted for?

----------


## Batcathat

> There was a vote discrepancy on Meta as well, no? Was that accounted for?


That was presumably blade secretly voting Xi instead of Meta.

----------


## Snowblaze

> If blade moved his vote, it would have triggered a vote discrepancy elsewhere.


Yup, can confirm, have checked that and there were the same number of Meta votes D1 with and without manipulation. So unless someone else added a vote to Meta...

----------


## Metastachydium

> There was a vote discrepancy on Meta as well, no? Was that accounted for?


Yes, D2. It was Blade.

----------


## Snowblaze

> There was a vote discrepancy on Meta as well, no? Was that accounted for?


I believe we're now talking about D1 Meta votes, not D2 Meta votes.

----------


## Benoojian

Wait, do we know why my vote on Cazero was canceled D1?

----------


## Persolus

> The problem is, you have one more vote than you're supposed to have, not one less, unless bat or Kraken is lying (or God forbid there's a 5th hidden vote manipulator) so Kraken/Persolus contains a wolf.


My point being, Rogan did not tell me what the "vote protection" entailed. It could be that _all_ powers affecting my votes are ignored, and I just get a flat -1.

Due to feedback I got last night, I know that powers that screw with someone else's boons are possible, but I don't know what I have Boon-wise beyond what I told you. Rogan has been deliberately vague on a lot of things to me.

----------


## Illven

I have gotten confirmation from Rogan that 

"Did any Tempted, Corrupted, or Neutrals vote for Bladescape in the final, pre-power/boon vote count of D2?"

This is a valid question to ask.

----------


## Batcathat

> Wait, do we know why my vote on Cazero was canceled D1?


No, I was about to point that out. At the time, I suspected you had a power similar to mine, but I guess that's not the case?

----------


## Cazero

> Wait, do we know why my vote on Cazero was canceled D1?


I do, but I think I'll keep y'all in the dark about that.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> I have gotten confirmation from Rogan that 
> 
> "Did any Tempted, Corrupted, or Neutrals vote for Bladescape in the final, pre-power/boon vote count of D2?"
> 
> This is a valid question to ask.


Well, good to know that we can mechanically clear me. 

Persolus, can you fully claim at this point?

----------


## AvatarVecna

I do wanna point out: my info was "more neutrals than tempted", not "neutrals = tempted +1". 3 tempted and 5 neutrals is perfectly valid, so if kraken is hero and persolus is neutral and flat is corrupted, everything checks out.

But if that was the case, you'd think persolus would've called out Kraken for claiming him as a hero?

Overall, I think the way kraken has acted about Persolus makes a lot of sense. Either this is a long con Kraken has been setting up for awhile, and doing a really good job acting appropriately, or kraken genuinely believed Persolus was clear because of this. Of course, if kraken can be trusted, then kraken is kind of a dayseer? Assuming we can trust kraken, but Illven's question and the lynch should help clear that up regardless.

----------


## Snowblaze

> Wait, do we know why my vote on Cazero was canceled D1?


_screams into the abyss_

No, we don't. 



> My point being, Rogan did not tell me what the "vote protection" entailed. It could be that _all_ powers affecting my votes are ignored, and I just get a flat -1.
> 
> Due to feedback I got last night, I know that powers that screw with someone else's boons are possible, but I don't know what I have Boon-wise beyond what I told you. Rogan has been deliberately vague on a lot of things to me.


Except if Kraken is telling the truth and you're the same alignment as him, Kraken's vote wouldn't have counted so you'd be on one vote. So unless you have a boon that somehow _adds_ votes to you...

Also can you please claim your entire role, not just your boon?

----------


## Batcathat

> My point being, Rogan did not tell me what the "vote protection" entailed. It could be that _all_ powers affecting my votes are ignored, and I just get a flat -1.
> 
> Due to feedback I got last night, I know that powers that screw with someone else's boons are possible, but I don't know what I have Boon-wise beyond what I told you. Rogan has been deliberately vague on a lot of things to me.


This seems unlikely. Rogan enjoys being mysterious as much as the next guy, but I don't think he would be this vague about a boon.

----------


## Cazero

Come to think of it, I don't remember Persolus ever claiming to be a hero. That was Kraken's assumption.

----------


## Persolus

I am unable to claim my Role. It involves information I have been explicitly told not to reveal.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> My point being, Rogan did not tell me what the "vote protection" entailed. It could be that _all_ powers affecting my votes are ignored, and I just get a flat -1.
> 
> Due to feedback I got last night, I know that powers that screw with someone else's boons are possible, but I don't know what I have Boon-wise beyond what I told you. Rogan has been deliberately vague on a lot of things to me.


Full claim quote, or we have no reason to trust anything you say. You're getting dunked unless you can convince us.

----------


## Metastachydium

> I do wanna point out: my info was "more neutrals than tempted", not "neutrals = tempted +1". 3 tempted and 5 neutrals is perfectly valid, so if kraken is hero and persolus is neutral and flat is corrupted, everything checks out.
> 
> But if that was the case, you'd think persolus would've called out Kraken for claiming him as a hero?
> 
> Overall, I think the way kraken has acted about Persolus makes a lot of sense. Either this is a long con Kraken has been setting up for awhile, and doing a really good job acting appropriately, or kraken genuinely believed Persolus was clear because of this. Of course, if kraken can be trusted, then kraken is kind of a dayseer? Assuming we can trust kraken, but Illven's question and the lynch should help clear that up regardless.


So, um, we are still killing Illven? (My vote is currently loitering on Kraken, for reference.)

----------


## Cazero

> But if that was the case, you'd think persolus would've called out Kraken for claiming him as a hero?


Why would he? Being thought of as a hero is better for him regardless of his alignement and goals.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> I am unable to claim my Role. It involves information I have been explicitly told not to reveal.


*Persolus* then.

----------


## Snowblaze

> I am unable to claim my Role. It involves information I have been explicitly told not to reveal.


...can you at least claim your alignment, then?

And has Rogan given you a stance on whether loophole abuse of what you can't reveal is allowed?

----------


## Metastachydium

> I am unable to claim my Role. It involves information I have been explicitly told not to reveal.


That's awfully conveninet, *Persolus*. (Come on, man, you're just digging yourself deeper.)

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Why would he? Being thought of as a hero is better for him regardless of his alignement and goals.


Being thought of as a hero when the game is wide open is great. Having somebody lie about your alignment when town has wolves on the ropes and is circling in on the few remaining questionable slots is a nightmare, for this exact reason. If kraken is corrupted and persolus is neutral, persolus staying quiet is handing wolves a mislynch for no benefit to himself.

- - - Updated - - -




> Why would he? Being thought of as a hero is better for him regardless of his alignement and goals.


Like, why did you claim neutral instead of hero? Because you knew if there were fewer neutrals than tempted claimed, I'd be digging even harder into the hero claims. So you came clean and admitted neutrality.

----------


## Illven

Do we still want me to use my secret science, or save it and use my last use of secret knowledge tonight instead?

----------


## Persolus

I should have been more clear: I'm not sure how my boon affected *D1*. 

I am a Neutral, but anything further I cannot say, because I am not allowed to screw the game over in favour of one side or the other.

Also, did anyone target me last night?

----------


## Batcathat

*Persolus*. (And this one is going to actually count.  :Small Amused:  )

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> And look which idiot forgot to ask bladescape who he actually voted D1 and now can't because he's dead.


Actually, might be able to do something. Its stupid and will probably not work.

Allando, is your mason chat with Caedorus explicitly part of your powerset, or is it your boon? If you could actually full claim with powers and boom, that would help me a lot.

Basically, I can give someone else your powers (permanently, I think). Once per game, the Prince can create a new Knight from anyone in the town.

----------


## AvatarVecna

Persolus has a vague boon that protects him from the lynch D1, somehow would've resulted in an extra vote on him D1, and even he doesn't understand it, but also he can't claim his alignment or his powers because Rogan told him not to, and that's the reason why Step 1 of clearing Persolus' name is impossible and we just have to trust him that he's not corrupted?

It's all BS.

----------


## Benoojian

> I do, but I think I'll keep y'all in the dark about that.


Ok, Cazero is the 5th manipulator. Thank you. It is possible Cazero moved my vote onto Persolus rather than just cancelling it, in which case Persolus and Kraken are telling the truth and the wolf then is in flat/3SC

If Cazero cancelled it, then Persolus/Kraken is the wolf pair

Edit: nvm, with Persolus admitting non-town, we know Cazero has cancelling. Also flat is also still in the mix.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Do we still want me to use my secret science, or save it and use my last use of secret knowledge tonight instead?


Don't you get corrupted if you use it again?

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Being thought of as a hero when the game is wide open is great. Having somebody lie about your alignment when town has wolves on the ropes and is circling in on the few remaining questionable slots is a nightmare, for this exact reason. If kraken is corrupted and persolus is neutral, persolus staying quiet is handing wolves a mislynch for no benefit to himself.


My only concern is that Persolus is telling the truth and Blade's actual vote D1 went on Persolus. I would very much like to avoid us both getting lynched over something like that. 

I would suggest that Illven refrain from asking a question today, and I protect them tonight, so they can ask the question tomorrow. If Persolus flips Hero, we can have Illven confirm my alignment to avoid a double mis-lynch. 

Even if we are voting Persolus today I will not for what should now be completely obvious reasons. My boon is pointless if I am on the lead wagon.

----------


## Metastachydium

> I should have been more clear: I'm not sure how my boon affected *D1*. 
> 
> I am a Neutral, but anything further I cannot say, because I am not allowed to screw the game over in favour of one side or the other.


Is there anything else you are "allowed" to tell?

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Ok, Cazero is the 5th manipulator. Thank you. It is possible Cazero moved my vote onto Persolus rather than just cancelling it, in which case Persolus and Kraken are telling the truth and the wolf then is in flat/3SC
> 
> If Cazero cancelled it, then Persolus/Kraken is the wolf pair


Isn't 3SC cleared by masons/you?

- - - Updated - - -

Pfft.

Hey Illven, you can get a full explanation from Rogan, yeah?

Is "What are Persolus' boon and power?" a valid question?

----------


## Illven

> Don't you get corrupted if you use it again?


I get corrupted if I use it three times. I've used it once.

----------


## Batcathat

> If Cazero cancelled it, then Persolus/Kraken is the wolf pair


If they are wolf buddies, how does Kraken's actions make any sort of sense? First claiming your buddy's confirmed town, then basically claiming that they're confirmed wolf. That seems... odd.

- - - Updated - - -




> Isn't 3SC cleared by masons/you?


I think Cultist only had like a convincing claim or something? The masons clarified he wasn't mech cleared.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> Ok, Cazero is the 5th manipulator. Thank you. It is possible Cazero moved my vote onto Persolus rather than just cancelling it, in which case Persolus and Kraken are telling the truth and the wolf then is in flat/3SC
> 
> If Cazero cancelled it, then Persolus/Kraken is the wolf pair


At this point, I dont really see a Persolus/Kraken wolf pairing. I just dont. If Kraken gets lynched and flips wolf (a possibility I am increasingly dubious on, despite my current vote), Persolus could be too. 

But if Persolus flips wolf, I dont see wolf!Kraken. A lot of us had sort of quasi-cleared him, so it makes no sense for Kraken to so openly bus a partner this late in the game when most of it is solved (he would presumably know we would circle back to him before too long, so its not worth the long term advantage of having a wolf partner still alive).

----------


## Persolus

> Is there anything else you are "allowed" to tell?


Someone disabled one of my powers last night.
The Gambler and I both received a boost to our win cons, but part of that boost is what makes it so I can't tell you more.

My boon is:
Hello everyone! I'm Persolus and think that you shouldn't kill me first round: You don't think you should be killed first round and the narrator for some reason agrees. If you would get lynched, you can pick some other player as your replacement. If you would die some other way before day 2, you will survive and be informed about the kind of death you escaped.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Someone disabled one of my powers last night.
> The Gambler and I both received a boost to our win cons, but part of that boost is what makes it so I can't tell you more.
> 
> My boon is:
> Hello everyone! I'm Persolus and think that you shouldn't kill me first round: You don't think you should be killed first round and the narrator for some reason agrees. If you would get lynched, you can pick some other player as your replacement. If you would die some other way before day 2, you will survive and be informed about the kind of death you escaped.


So...your boon would not mess with vote counts, it just redirected the lynch to someone else?

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> I think Cultist only had like a convincing claim or something? The masons clarified he wasn't mech cleared.


I am not much cleared, but am vouched for by the masons. I think most to all of the things that could have been attributed to me have been explained at this point or been proven to be someone else.

Happy to full claim, with the exception of a single power that Allando knows about. But you know my role and two of my powers at this point.

----------


## Persolus

> So...your boon would not mess with vote counts, it just redirected the lynch to someone else?


Rogan then went on to state that he felt my boon was underpowered, and would give me some form of vote protection.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Someone disabled one of my powers last night.
> The Gambler and I both received a boost to our win cons, but part of that boost is what makes it so I can't tell you more.
> 
> My boon is:
> Hello everyone! I'm Persolus and think that you shouldn't kill me first round: You don't think you should be killed first round and the narrator for some reason agrees. If you would get lynched, you can pick some other player as your replacement. If you would die some other way before day 2, you will survive and be informed about the kind of death you escaped.


*@rakkoon*

Was your wincon boosted?

----------


## Illven

> My only concern is that Persolus is telling the truth and Blade's actual vote D1 went on Persolus. I would very much like to avoid us both getting lynched over something like that. 
> 
> I would suggest that Illven refrain from asking a question today, and I protect them tonight, so they can ask the question tomorrow. If Persolus flips Hero, we can have Illven confirm my alignment to avoid a double mis-lynch. 
> 
> Even if we are voting Persolus today I will not for what should now be completely obvious reasons. My boon is pointless if I am on the lead wagon.


But my question would clear you today, and if you are a wolf I can't trust your protection.

----------


## AvatarVecna

The people I'd like to full claim right now is flat_footed and Persolus.

----------


## Illven

Rogan said its a very powerful option and they are unsure if they will allow it.

Reading between the lines that makes me feel like Kraken has a stronger town lean.

----------


## Benoojian

> Isn't 3SC cleared by masons/you?


3SC was originally cleared based on the assumption that a wolf role that get the identities and roles of 2 town members was impossible, but roles are NAI in this game so he has never been Mechanically cleared.
I'd rather kill someone else if they're paired for obvious reasons.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

Yeah, that's silly of me. The question is no longer "Is Kraken lying about Persolus". Persolus has admitted that he is not a hero. My ability with Persolus does nothing at this point. 

So it's "is Persolus lying about being a neutral". So a mislynch on Persolus doesn't lead to a mislynch on me, since I don't have anything to confirm he's a wolf and that's not really on me? In which case I have fewer concerns about a lynch of Persolus if that is the consensus. 

I am increasingly of the opinion that Snow was corrupted.

----------


## AvatarVecna

Since meta is confirmed neutral at this point (right? someone worked out that it's basically impossible for him to not be neutral?), I can scry Meta/Persolus, and Meta latches onto Cazero or Rakkoon? I either get one alignment (all neutral), two alignments (and one non-Meta is lying), or three alignments (and both non-Meta are lying).

----------


## Snowblaze

Neutral!Persolus is a valid explanation for Kraken's vote counting. Seconding request for confirmation from Rakkoon.

I think the way Kraken has handled this makes him town. So if Persolus is telling the truth, and I don't think flat is a wolf...

...I guess it's possible that all that's left is corrupted!Ilven. Maybe?

But also is five neutrals really likely? And I have nothing beyond gut to suggest he's telling the truth unless Rakkoon confirms. And even then...

*unvote: Let'sGetKraken*.

----------


## Benoojian

@Illven is "Have any Tempted successfully been Corrupted?" A legitimate question?

----------


## AvatarVecna

Alternatively, kraken votes 3SC, I scry kraken/caed tonight, and hopefully that gets kraken/3SC confirmed hero by morning?

----------


## Illven

If we wait tonight. I can secret knowledge ask if snow is lying about her triggering condition.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Rogan said its a very powerful option and they are unsure if they will allow it.
> 
> Reading between the lines that makes me feel like Kraken has a stronger town lean.


Sorry, but can you clarify which question this was about? Was this the persolus power question, the "even number of heroes" question, or the "starting number of each faction" question?

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Alternatively, kraken votes 3SC, I scry kraken/caed tonight, and hopefully that gets kraken/3SC confirmed hero by morning?


Well my thing is known now, so people can mess with votesif they know what I am doing, theoretically. Depends on how flat can influence things. So a flat claim would be very helpful.

----------


## Benoojian

Ok, so Neutral Persolus throws all the numbers into disarray and unconfirms all the Neutral claims. I will put up another chart soon to look at what that means.

----------


## Illven

> Sorry, but can you clarify which question this was about? Was this the persolus power question, the "even number of heroes" question, or the "starting number of each faction" question?


Persolus question

----------


## Snowblaze

While I try and work out the mechanics of all this...




> _"We all make mistakes", the Knight said. "Some graver than others. Look at the bright side... I have saved you from the potential hurt of watching the man you loved slowly give in to corruption. My duty, as Knight, is to protect this town and all it's inhabitants. However, I also have a sense of honour. When my brother was saved from death, he agreed to remove your love from this town to the executioner... I was honourbound to fullfill  his promise."
> He smiles. "Do not worry. There will be others. After we deal with the threat at hand, that is."
> With that, he slowly walks a ways away, back to his cart. From the cart, he removes a tombstone and a bouquet of pretty flowers.
> "For your sacrifice, Bladescape, Alchemist of this town. You died so others might live. May you rest in peace."_ 
> Sorry, blade.


_She didn't point out that she wouldn't have cared if her lover had given into the darkness. Didn't argue that the fact that someone might some day become evil could never be a justification for killing them. Didn't argue that there could be no others, because there could never be another person like her cryptic cloaked alchemist. Though all those things made her recoil from the knight's words.

She was a poet, a woman of words, but she knew that their power was limited in moments like this. It was a simple choice. Black or white? Revenge or life? Good or evil?

The Knight was genuinely sorry. He'd believed he was doing the right thing at the time. Did that make a difference? Should it? 

What. Was she going. To do? The world stood still. Waiting. 

A swallow swooped overhead, its wings shaped like a dart. This was hardly the time to be getting poetic inspiration, but the idea was there. The contrast between the blackness of the swallow's form and the deep expansive blueness of the sky. Where was it going?

She wanted to write that poem. She wanted to write about life, in all its glory and horror, beauty and tragedy.  And if the price for that was becoming a reluctant heroine with a snarky plant companion? Well, then that was what she would have to do.

She stepped back, away from the Knight, towards her lover's corpse. "You can keep this," she said to the body, refastening the dagger in its sheath. "I won't be needing it."
_

Contrived? Maybe. Does it do what I needed it to do? Definitely. Going to do RL stuff, will check back in at some point within the next couple of hours.

----------


## Cazero

Alright. Exploring options that don't involve lynching me, didn't Rogan hint in the recruitment thread that lynching the narrator would do _something_?

----------


## Illven

> Alright. Exploring options that don't involve lynching me, didn't Rogan hint in the recruitment thread that lynching the narrator would do _something_?


That reminds me, I WAS explicitly told that asking if it will do something is a valid question for secret knowledge.

----------


## Benoojian

*Spoiler: Previous table*
Show




> AvatarVecna-Not mechanically cleared but outed by evil seer and genuinely helpful, strong townread
> Metastachydium- Still very suspicious of them, wolflean
> Batcathat- Mechanically Hero via Ben and flat
> flat_footed- was very suspicious early on, any mechanical I missed on them?
> Book Wombat died night 2- Neutral
> Lady Serpentine died night 1- Hero
> Persolus- Mechanically Hero via LetsGetKraken
> Grand Arbiter left town night 2- Corrupted
> bladescape died night 2, on the side of the heroes- Tempted
> ...





Batcathat- Mechanically Hero via Ben and flat
Caedorus- Mechanically Hero via death flip
Allando- Mechanically hero via Caedorus
Benoojian- Not mechanically cleared, but role confirmed by saving confirmed townie. (I am Hero but I'm trying to summarize what can be proven)
Lady Serpentine died night 1- Hero
Aleph Null left town night 2- Hero

AvatarVecna-Not mechanically cleared but outed by evil seer and genuinely helpful, strong townread
Let'sGetKraken-  town claim
3SecondCultist- Not mechanically cleared, because the original clear was based on role being always Town, which is no longer a safe assumption, however they have been generally towny
flat_footed- has Hunter role, hero claim (no double wolf kill makes flat unlikely Corrupted) also claims tracking and vote manipulation

Illven- Mechanically Tempted via Benoojian
Snowblaze- Mechanically Tempted via batcathat
bladescape died night 2, on the side of the heroes- Tempted

Book Wombat died night 2- Neutral

Metastachydium- must be different alignment from Snow D1 via AV, neutral claim
Rakkoon- Neutral claim
Persolus- Mechanically non-Hero via LetsGetKraken, Neutral claim
Cazero- vote canceller, Neutral claim

Grand Arbiter left town night 2- Corrupted
JeenLeen died night 1- Corrupted
Xihirli voted day 2, executed night 2- Corrupted




I'm including myself in the mechanical heroes this time, if anyone has an objection I'll move myself to town claims.

So including claims we have
9 Town
3 Tempted
5 Neutral
3 Corrupted
and that leaves flat unfortunately able to be anything
if Flat flips as Tempted or converted Tempted, that would reconfirm every Neutral claim and pretty much guarantee Illven's "There are not 5 starting Corrupted". If they aren't cooperating with Town I think that might be worth the lynch

Edit:

10 Town
3 Tempted
5 Neutral
3 Corrupted

Flat did claim town, I need to think about if that changes things. I do think Flat is the weakest of the town claims, and Rakkoon is the weakest of the Neutral claims.

----------


## Illven

Note that Cazero also has a kill power.

Talking to Rogan I got an answer about the tempted question.

"Have any Tempted successfully been Corrupted?" A legitimate question? 

Yes, it would be legitimate, for both powers.

For your boon, you might even ask for the number of tempted who have been corrupted

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Note that Cazero also has a kill power.
> 
> Talking to Rogan I got an answer about the tempted question.
> 
> "Have any Tempted successfully been Corrupted?" A legitimate question? 
> 
> Yes, it would be legitimate, for both powers.
> 
> For your boon, you might even ask for the number of tempted who have been corrupted


Issue with this is that you're one of the people this would be clearing, and therefore any answer we get is suspect. 

We're in the frustrating position of knowing that we can ask a question that can basically end the game, but not knowing *which* question to ask.

----------


## Benoojian

So unfortunately flat's claim does bring the totals to a good place and brings the total suspect list up to 10. Either 1 or 2 town or Neutral claims are lying or 1 or 2 Tempted have converted

In vague order from least suspicious to me to most suspicious:
1.Avatar Vecna
2.3SC
3.Let'sGetKraken
4.Illven
5.Meta
6.Snowblaze
7.Cazero
8.Persolus
9.rakkoon
10.flat_footed

Does anyone have a reason to trust flat that I'm not seeing?

----------


## rakkoon

> *@rakkoon*
> Was your wincon boosted?


Everybody knows that, I posted it 8 pages ago.



> The goals of two neutrals just got easier tonight because of the many deaths but that does not mean that there are only two left.

----------


## Benoojian

> Everybody knows that, I posted it 8 pages ago.


Alright, so Persolus and Rakkoon's Neutral claims are mechanically linked. Both Corrupted sounds unlikely. I now think Cazero is the weakest Neutral claim.

- - - Updated - - -

*Spoiler*
Show




> So unfortunately flat's claim does bring the totals to a good place and brings the total suspect list up to 10. Either 1 or 2 town or Neutral claims are lying or 1 or 2 Tempted have converted
> 
> In vague order from least suspicious to me to most suspicious:
> 1.Avatar Vecna
> 2.3SC
> 3.Let'sGetKraken
> 4.Illven
> 5.Meta
> 6.Snowblaze
> ...




New order
In vague order from least suspicious to me to most suspicious:
1.Avatar Vecna
2.3SC
3.Let'sGetKraken
4.Illven
5.Meta
6.Rakkoon
7.Persolus
8.Snowblaze
9.Cazero
10.flat_footed

----------


## 3SecondCultist

Going with *flat_footed* for now. Working on other stuff atm but following the thread. Not sure where if claimed if he did, but I dont buy a Hero claim from flat. Im also squarely off of Kraken at this point, I think (that makes 3 times Ive strongly pushed a case only to be proven immediately wrong  :Small Tongue: )

I did see that Persolus got uncleared, but I think lynching flat right now might win the game. Meanwhile, AV can implement her plan of scrying Kraken while Kraken votes for me to clear us (which would leave just Persolus and potentially Illven).

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Going with *flat_footed* for now. Working on other stuff atm but following the thread. Not sure where if claimed if he did, but I dont buy a Hero claim from flat. Im also squarely off of Kraken at this point, I think (that makes 3 times Ive strongly pushed a case only to be proven immediately wrong )
> 
> I did see that Persolus got uncleared, but I think lynching flat right now might win the game. Meanwhile, AV can implement her plan of scrying Kraken while Kraken votes for me to clear us (which would leave just Persolus and potentially Illven).


I won't be voting you. I will be voting for someone town-related but if people know who I am voting for, it will reduce the effectiveness of my power.

----------


## Benoojian

*Unvote Persolus
*
Unless *flat_footed* shows up with more information, I think we get the most info from his death.

----------


## Illven

Anyone want me to ask the use of my boon question?

----------


## Persolus

> Anyone want me to ask the use of my boon question?


Has *Illven* used up three questions yet?

----------


## Benoojian

> Going with *flat_footed* for now. Working on other stuff atm but following the thread. Not sure where if claimed if he did, but I dont buy a Hero claim from flat. Im also squarely off of Kraken at this point, I think (that makes 3 times Ive strongly pushed a case only to be proven immediately wrong )
> 
> I did see that Persolus got uncleared, but I think lynching flat right now might win the game. Meanwhile, AV can implement her plan of scrying Kraken while Kraken votes for me to clear us (which would leave just Persolus and potentially Illven).


There is also Cazero's sketchy Neutral claim, and the fact that Neutral Persolus means Corrupted Meta is possible mathematically.

----------


## rakkoon

> Alright, so Persolus and Rakkoon's Neutral claims are mechanically linked.


Why? I publicly stated that two neutrals got it easier. Anyone could read that.

----------


## Benoojian

> Anyone want me to ask the use of my boon question?


If it indeed takes 3 uses of your role to switch to corrupted, I am going to ask you not to use it tonight. If you are sitting at 2 uses you will be tempted to use the last one and flip tomorrow night if the last Corrupted escapes.

Just say no to drugs, Illven.

- - - Updated - - -




> Why? I publicly stated that two neutrals got it easier. Anyone could read that.


Let me clarify, did Rogan *tell* you that two Neutral goals got easier?

----------


## Persolus

> If it indeed takes 3 uses of your role to switch to corrupted, I am going to ask you not to use it tonight. If you are sitting at 2 uses you will be tempted to use the last one and flip tomorrow night if the last Corrupted escapes.
> 
> Just say no to drugs, Illven.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> 
> Let me clarify, did Rogan *tell* you that two Neutral goals got easier?


He did!
In fact, he specified we got the exact same boost.
Rakkoon, if you say the first half (with your specific condition censored of course) i can finish it.

----------


## AvatarVecna

Meta isn't corrupted, guaranteed.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh. OH. I KNOW WHAT QUESTION TO ASK.

- - - Updated - - -

"Who is the mayor?"

----------


## Cazero

Not sure it's worth burning a question. PoE says Batcathat or Persolus, unless someone lied about their role name.

----------


## Illven

Yeah, can you elaborate I'm not sure it's worth burning a question.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Yeah, can you elaborate I'm not sure it's worth burning a question.


Corrupted fluff so far has been big official roles. Mayor hasn't been claimed, despite otherwise looking fairly innocuous, and fits.

(The fact the first response I got was one of my top suspects trying to dissuade me from this plan doesn't help.)

- - - Updated - - -

Only neutral claimant I'm really skeptical of right now is Cazero, although Persolus gets stronger if they do the half-and-half thing suggested. Of hero claimants, FF is my strong suspicion, kraken a medium, and BCH/3SC weaker suspicions. Illven and Snow are both on the table. We've got Illven's question, the lynch, kraken's vote-scry and my comparison scry before tomorrow. Any kills within that group of suspects also help us.

----------


## Cazero

I dunno about that. Sure, the judge sounds official, but the magician and seer are more mystical than anything else.

But you're right that nobody claiming it is suspicious.

----------


## Batcathat

> Corrupted fluff so far has been big official roles. Mayor hasn't been claimed, despite otherwise looking fairly innocuous, and fits.
> 
> (The fact the first response I got was one of my top suspects trying to dissuade me from this plan doesn't help.)


I can see your point, but I'm not sure we should risk using up a question on something that's not guaranteed to help us (unlike, say, the distribution of alignments, which should be helpful regardless of the answer). Of course, there is the chance that it's a question that could win us the game, so I can't say I'm entirely certain.

----------


## Illven

> Corrupted fluff so far has been big official roles. Mayor hasn't been claimed, despite otherwise looking fairly innocuous, and fits.


That's.....a risk. There's a VERY large chance that the mayor is simply the narrator.

----------


## Metastachydium

*Unvote: Persolus*




> I can see your point, but I'm not sure we should risk using up a question on something that's not guaranteed to help us (unlike, say, the distribution of alignments, which should be helpful regardless of the answer). Of course, there is the chance that it's a question that could win us the game, so I can't say I'm entirely certain.


I'm inclined to agree.

- - - Updated - - -




> That's.....a risk. There's a VERY large chance that the mayor is simply the narrator.


That, too. (Cf. _Utropia_ which the first Mayor thing gave me vibes of.)

----------


## Snowblaze

So Persolus is actually neutral, and so is Rakkoon. fmpov Meta isn't 100% confirmed neutral but I'd be willing to stake a decent amount on it. 

Cazero could be fakeclaiming neutral. Kraken could be a wolf still. flat could be a wolf. Ilven could have been corrupted. There's also a world where one of Kraken/flat is tempted and has been corrupted.

Ilven and I can't be reliably tested through either Kraken's vote-scry or AV's comparison scry. Cazero can be tested with comparison but not vote-scry. I think given that and my desire to not die Ilven should check me, but I'd rather not use the "have any tempted been Corrupted yet" question since there's a small chance of a false positive. 

Benoojian, can you spare a player from the lynch today? Because if so I'd like to be lynched and then spared. If not then I would really prefer not to die.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> So Persolus is actually neutral, and so is Rakkoon. fmpov Meta isn't 100% confirmed neutral but I'd be willing to stake a decent amount on it. 
> 
> Cazero could be fakeclaiming neutral. Kraken could be a wolf still. flat could be a wolf. Ilven could have been corrupted. There's also a world where one of Kraken/flat is tempted and has been corrupted.
> 
> Ilven and I can't be reliably tested through either Kraken's vote-scry or AV's comparison scry. Cazero can be tested with comparison but not vote-scry. I think given that and my desire to not die Ilven should check me, but I'd rather not use the "have any tempted been Corrupted yet" question since there's a small chance of a false positive. 
> 
> Benoojian, can you spare a player from the lynch today? Because if so I'd like to be lynched and then spared. If not then I would really prefer not to die.


Meta is neutral because last night, Meta used their power to try and get both themselves and you scried. It didn't quite work because I'm not quite a seer, but the intent is important.

----------


## Illven

> Meta is neutral because last night, Meta used their power to try and get both themselves and you scried. It didn't quite work because I'm not quite a seer, but the intent is important.


Just going to throw this out there. What are the odds that Meta's power disguises the scry?

----------


## Snowblaze

> Just going to throw this out there. What are the odds that Meta's power disguises the scry?


Approximately zero. The only way the result is invalid is if Meta and I are both corrupted. Which fmpov is impossible and should be highly unlikely even without knowing whether I'm Corrupted.

- - - Updated - - -




> Meta is neutral because last night, Meta used their power to try and get both themselves and you scried. It didn't quite work because I'm not quite a seer, but the intent is important.


Agreed. It's just not quite mechanical proof, and there are few non-tinfoil worlds remaining.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Just going to throw this out there. What are the odds that Meta's power disguises the scry?


Low odds, just because my power becomes almost useless. My power is "Weak Scry" and can only detect alignment parity, but then also Xihirli auto-vortexes my scry onto a random target, JeenLeen can void me, Grand Arbiter can void me from the grave if I killed him, and scum!Meta can fake scry results? If I'm to trust you, that's all the wolves, and all in some way capable of shutting down the real town seer.

It's still technically possible, but realistically Meta is just neutral.

- - - Updated - - -

Least to most suspect IMO:

3SC
rakkoon
BCH
Meta
Illven
Kraken
Pers
flat
Snow
Cazero

----------


## Illven

If we think Cazero is most sus. I could ask if Cazero has lied about his alignment and/or role, and with secret science probably with what

----------


## Benoojian

Did I miss something about Batcathat? Because suddenly he's on 3 different suspect lists and Cazero is claiming he's the obvious lynch.

----------


## Illven

> Did I miss something about Batcathat? Because suddenly he's on 3 different suspect lists and Cazero is claiming he's the obvious lynch.


He's low on Vecna's and Cazero has a stated interest in AT BEST drawing out this game. Giving us bad PoE is in his best interest.

----------


## Batcathat

> Did I miss something about Batcathat? Because suddenly he's on 3 different suspect lists and Cazero is claiming he's the obvious lynch.


I don't think Cazero is saying that I'm a candidate for the lynch, but one of the possible Mayors. 

Though Illven is quite correct that even if Caz is honest, it's probably not really in his interest to help town.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Did I miss something about Batcathat? Because suddenly he's on 3 different suspect lists and Cazero is claiming he's the obvious lynch.


BCH is not the obvious lynch. I listed everybody who isn't clear in my eyes, and BCH is on that list. BCH is clear on your word, you're clear on the mason's word, but that makes BCH less clear than you and you less clear than them. There is an outside tiny barely worth mentioning chance that letting Caedorus live D1 was a long-con wolf plan on your part, so BCH isn't clear just on your say-so.  And he's still pretty low on my list. The only people less suspect in my eyes are rakkoon (the neutral least likely to be faking), and 3SC, who is directly cleared by the masons (like you), but for sketchy reasons. If I was realistic, you'd also be on the list as least suspicious, but eh. I've even got BCH as less suspicious than Meta, and I'm basically convinced that outside some serious tinfoil, Meta is confirmed neutral.

- - - Updated - - -

Cazero is, at best, an anti-town neutral, and at worst, the corrupted hiding in the neutral claimants. Either way, there's a strong case for just lynching him today, especially since he's deliberately holding back information that would help us solve.

- - - Updated - - -

*Cazero*, yeah.

----------


## Benoojian

> He's low on Vecna's and Cazero has a stated interest in AT BEST drawing out this game. Giving us bad PoE is in his best interest.


But I'm not on Vecna's, and I Mechanically cleared batcathat, so I don't understand how.

The message from Rogan was extremely clear, with no obvious loopholes, so BCH is hero unless Vecna wants to reopen an investigation on me or question Rogan's truthfulness.

----------


## Illven

> BCH is not the obvious lynch. I listed everybody who isn't clear in my eyes, and BCH is on that list. BCH is clear on your word, you're clear on the mason's word, but that makes BCH less clear than you and you less clear than them. There is an outside tiny barely worth mentioning chance that letting Caedorus live D1 was a long-con wolf plan on your part, so BCH isn't clear just on your say-so.  And he's still pretty low on my list. The only people less suspect in my eyes are rakkoon (the neutral least likely to be faking), and 3SC, who is directly cleared by the masons (like you), but for sketchy reasons. If I was realistic, you'd also be on the list as least suspicious, but eh. I've even got BCH as less suspicious than Meta, and I'm basically convinced that outside some serious tinfoil, Meta is confirmed neutral.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Cazero is, at best, an anti-town neutral, and at worst, the corrupted hiding in the neutral claimants. Either way, there's a strong case for just lynching him today, especially since he's deliberately holding back information that would help us solve.


You're not convinced I'm good?  :Small Frown:   :Small Tongue:

----------


## AvatarVecna

> But I'm not on Vecna's, and I Mechanically cleared batcathat, so I don't understand how.
> 
> The message from Rogan was extremely clear, with no obvious loopholes, so BCH is hero unless Vecna wants to reopen an investigation on me or question Rogan's truthfulness.


As I mentioned, you should technically be on my list but I didn't quite bother with getting that granular. I'm sure BCH has no issue with me being this unwilling to just townread people.  :Small Tongue: 




> You're not convinced I'm good?


I know how easily corrupted you are.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

Okay, after all this I think the best option is to have Illven use their boon (which does not risk them being corrupted) to get the startling numbers of every alignment. This at least tells us which group to look at, and confirms whether the tempted are the reason the game is still going.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, if we don't do that I think Cazero is a fine but not ideal pick for the lynch.

----------


## Illven

Does everyone agree with Kraken's question?

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Does everyone agree with Kraken's question?


Yeah I'm fine with that question.

----------


## Batcathat

Me too. That way we should get something usable even if we're completely barking up the wrong trees.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Yeah I'm fine with that question.


I'd hope so, it's yours. Anyone have suggestions for the wording? 

Alternative is (if Rogan permits) the number of each alignment currently alive. Can you ask Rogan if you can ask that, and if not, go with the starting alignment counts?

----------


## AvatarVecna

And if lynching based on the answer goes bad for us, we know Illven is corrupted.

Hey that reminds me, to lynched people get to use their powers on the night they're voted but not dead yet?

----------


## Batcathat

Also, I just realized that despite starting surprisingly slow, this game already has the most pages since Upick 2 (though at this point I'm kind of hoping we won't get to a second thread, because that probably means something has gone horribly wrong.  :Small Tongue:  )

----------


## Illven

> I'd hope so, it's yours. Anyone have suggestions for the wording? 
> 
> Alternative is (if Rogan permits) the number of each alignment currently alive. Can you ask Rogan if you can ask that, and if not, go with the starting alignment counts?


In case we get consensus before Rogan gets back to me, would people prefer this question?

He got back to me, this is a valid question.

----------


## Benoojian

> As I mentioned, you should technically be on my list but I didn't quite bother with getting that granular. I'm sure BCH has no issue with me being this unwilling to just townread people.


3SC is not cleared by the Masons, 3SC has not had alignment cleared by anyone, only role. He is still low on my suspect list, but far above BCH who was cleared by myself and flat. BCH being Corrupted REQUIRES 3 more non-Town roles and I doubt town would have done this well if there were only 7 townies.

----------


## Batcathat

> Alternative is (if Rogan permits) the number of each alignment currently alive. Can you ask Rogan if you can ask that, and if not, go with the starting alignment counts?


Yeah, that's probably better, given the risk of tempted getting corrupted.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> In case we get consensus before Rogan gets back to me, would people prefer this question?
> 
> He got back to me, this is a valid question.


...I think that question's better, actually. For the most part, "how many did we start with" and "how many do we have now" is the same question, because we know how many of each alignment are dead. But asking "how many do we have now" also tells us if either tempted has become corrupted.

----------


## Benoojian

> And if lynching based on the answer goes bad for us, we know Illven is corrupted.
> 
> Hey that reminds me, to lynched people get to use their powers on the night they're voted but not dead yet?


Private chats and powers that allow the condemned to send a message are definitely blocked

----------


## Illven

> Private chats and powers that allow the condemned to send a message are definitely blocked


Ben, If I can get your approval of the question proposed, I'll ask.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> ...I think that question's better, actually. For the most part, "how many did we start with" and "how many do we have now" is the same question, because we know how many of each alignment are dead. But asking "how many do we have now" also tells us if either tempted has become corrupted.


Yeah let's fire this off. Should really help us figure out what we're dealing with and where to look.

----------


## Benoojian

I think we want starting alignments not current

----------


## AvatarVecna

> 3SC is not cleared by the Masons, 3SC has not had alignment cleared by anyone, only role. He is still low on my suspect list, but far above BCH who was cleared by myself and flat. BCH being Corrupted REQUIRES 3 more non-Town roles and I doubt town would have done this well if there were only 7 townies.


You're misunderstanding.

The masons vouched for him. You vouched for him. That's the only reason anyone thinks he's clear. Maybe you're full of **** and based that on nothing, maybe you're engaged in a long con, but for the most part, I'm kinda just assuming that 3SC did not, in fact, out themselves to the towncore for ****s and giggles. And the point of my list is that he is not ****ing cleared. He's on the list because he's not cleared. I'm not saying he's cleared, you are imagining it. He is the least suspicious of the not-cleared people (or second-least suspicious, with you as the least suspicious).

Please learn to read between the lines. This has happened a lot this game where I've had to break down into painstaking detail to explain what feels to me to be a fairly simple concept to you.

----------


## Benoojian

We know there is at least 1 Corrupted, but getting the answer "There is currently 1 Corrupted" which seems like the most likely scenario, tells us nothing

----------


## AvatarVecna

> We know there is at least 1 Corrupted, but getting the answer "There is currently 1 Corrupted" which seems like the most likely scenario, tells us nothing


But we're asking for all alignments, not just the current number of corrupted. If we're told "2 tempted, 1 corrupted", we know our tempted are safe. If we're told "1 tempted, 2 corrupted", we know one of the tempted is corrupt. If we're told "0 tempted, 3 corrupted", we know Illven is yanking our chains.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> You're misunderstanding.
> 
> The masons vouched for him. You vouched for him. That's the only reason anyone thinks he's clear. Maybe you're full of **** and based that on nothing, maybe you're engaged in a long con, but for the most part, I'm kinda just assuming that 3SC did not, in fact, out themselves to the towncore for ****s and giggles. And the point of my list is that he is not ****ing cleared. He's on the list because he's not cleared. I'm not saying he's cleared, you are imagining it. He is the least suspicious of the not-cleared people (or second-least suspicious, with you as the least suspicious).
> 
> Please learn to read between the lines. This has happened a lot this game where I've had to break down into painstaking detail to explain what feels to me to be a fairly simple concept to you.


AV it's been a rapid game and this is a little harsh. Just maybe rein it in a little moving forward. 

Benooj, why wouldn't we want to know what alignments are in play now? We can just add them to the dead to get starting alignments, and this also confirms whether tempted have crossed the aisle, so to speak.

----------


## Benoojian

> . The only people less suspect in my eyes are rakkoon (the neutral least likely to be faking), and *3SC, who is directly cleared by the masons* (like you), but for sketchy reasons.


I'm sorry, I quoted the wrong one with that, here is you using the exact phrase you are claiming you didn't say and are throwing a hissy fit about me correcting.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> I'm sorry, I quoted the wrong one with that, here is you using the exact phrase you are claiming you didn't say and are throwing a hissy fit about me correcting.


I'm sorry I used the word "clear" to talk about somebody being vouched for by you and the masons, which you mistook to mean "mechanically clear" and starting pissing and ****ting yourself just because I didn't fall in love with your best buddy Batcathat.

----------


## Benoojian

> But we're asking for all alignments, not just the current number of corrupted. If we're told "2 tempted, 1 corrupted", we know our tempted are safe. If we're told "1 tempted, 2 corrupted", we know one of the tempted is corrupt. If we're told "0 tempted, 3 corrupted", we know Illven is yanking our chains.


You're right, that was a brain fart, the questions are functionally identical except for converted tempted. Sorry, current alignments then.

----------


## Snowblaze

I support that question. 

AV, Benoojian, your debate really isn't that productive. 3SC is not mechanically clear but he's probably just town anyway and if not we have enough investigative powers and mislynches to get there eventually.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> You're right, that was a brain fart, the questions are functionally identical except for converted tempted. Sorry, current alignments then.


Yeah I'm pretty sure they're mechanically identical but for that improvement. Admittedly, there's part of my brain tinfoiling cuz one of my more suspected slots suggested it which makes me nervous, but it's...probably a better question and I'm just being paranoid.

----------


## Illven

Question asked and waiting for answer.

----------


## Benoojian

If there is an extra Tempted we don't know about in the uncertain town claims that throws things off with the current alignment question.

The extra tempted can't be in the Neutral claims because we'd need another neutral then.

Extra tempted not converted we see either "3 tempted, 1 Corrupted" or "2 Tempted, 1 Corrupted"  or "1 Tempted, 2 Corrupted" this second possibility concerns me because it reads as neither tempted converted when it really means 1 of the other two converted.

Extra tempted converted we likely see either "2 tempted, 1 Corrupted" or "2 Tempted, 2 Corrupted"

----------


## Illven

1 corrupted, 2 tempted. 4 neutral, 8 heroes Alive
And Rogan says combined with the dead players plus absent that adds up to 22. He says that's deliberate.

----------


## Benoojian

> 1 corrupted, 2 tempted. 4 neutral, 8 heroes Alive
> And Rogan says combined with the dead players plus absent that adds up to 22. He says that's deliberate.


Huh...

So we shoot Rogan?

----------


## AvatarVecna

> 1 corrupted, 2 tempted. 4 neutral, 8 heroes Alive
> And Rogan says combined with the dead players plus absent that adds up to 22. He says that's deliberate.


So somebody counts as two alignments at the same time?

Well I'm certainly glad you got that full explanation.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Illven

> So somebody counts as two alignments at the same time?
> 
> Well I'm certainly glad you got that full explanation.


No I think Ben is right, and it's time to

*Rogan*

----------


## AvatarVecna

4 thoughts currently:

1) Shoot illven to verify veracity of answers received.

2) Shoot cazero so he doesn't shoot one of us to try and slow down the solve.

3) Shoot rogan for being a bastard narrator.

4) Shoot nobody - at absolute worst, we have 10 Hero/Neutral vs 4 Tempted/Corrupted. Even if Snow and Illven are both untrustworthy right now, another night of info will help us a lot.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm willing to go with *Rogan* but I don't think he's the last corrupted. I could plausibly see him as any other alignment though.

----------


## Illven

> 4 thoughts currently:
> 
> 1) Shoot illven to verify veracity of answers received.
> 
> 2) Shoot cazero so he doesn't shoot one of us to try and slow down the solve.
> 
> 3) Shoot rogan for being a bastard narrator.
> 
> 4) Shoot nobody - at absolute worst, we have 10 Hero/Neutral vs 4 Tempted/Corrupted. Even if Snow and Illven are both untrustworthy right now, another night of info will help us a lot.


If I GET LYNCHED WHEN I FLIP TEMPTED. STATUE

IN MY HONOR!  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Benoojian

I have one message from Rogan very early on specifically not denying that something weird will happen when we lynch the Narrator.

So should be interesting at least, but might also be something like "Everyone loses their boons" or "You've entered phase 2 of the game, here are the new rules."

----------


## AvatarVecna

> I have one message from Rogan very early on specifically not denying that something weird will happen when we lynch the Narrator.
> 
> So should be interesting at least, but might also be something like "Everyone loses their boons" or "You've entered phase 2 of the game, here are the new rules."


musical chairs but with alignments

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

That means all our neutrals are actually plausibly neutral. So whatever happened with Persolus might actually be legitimate. 

Which means (if not the narrator) then it's one of the heroic claims.

----------


## Batcathat

I feel like Rogan being the final corrupted is unlikely, though mainly for the rather meta reason that we had a game where lynching the narrator was the key pretty recently and don't think Rogan would use the same gimmick. 

If lynching him does nothing, we can almost certainly afford it. What I'm a little worried about is that it might help the wolves.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

God I hope that's not the bastardy alternate win condition for the wolves. 

Hey @Rogan. 

Can we vote in a mayor that isn't you?

----------


## Benoojian

> musical chairs but with alignments


Since I'm putting on my tinfoil hat, there's no chance that Rogan is running a second game simultaneously and is going to dump the survivors together for a cutthroat round 2?

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Since I'm putting on my tinfoil hat, there's no chance that Rogan is running a second game simultaneously and is going to dump the survivors together for a cutthroat round 2?


Bladescape thought he got to just die and stop being solvy but nope there's a second game in deadchat

----------


## Illven

> God I hope that's not the bastardy alternate win condition for the wolves. 
> 
> Hey @Rogan. 
> 
> Can we vote in a mayor that isn't you?


That was actually my one thought while checking the potatos that the mayor is also a hero that can only be lynched. And lynching him kills the town.

- - - Updated - - -

One option is. Vecna scries rogan's alignment. I ask if lynching the narrator is good for the town whichever one of us survives?

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> That was actually my one thought while checking the potatos that the mayor is also a hero that can only be lynched. And lynching him kills the town.


We cannot elect a new mayor, per Rogan. Sad.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> That was actually my one thought while checking the potatos that the mayor is also a hero that can only be lynched. And lynching him kills the town.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> One option is. Vecna scries rogan's alignment. I ask if lynching the narrator is good for the town whichever one of us survives?


Comparison scry. I could only tell you if he's the same alignment as another player.

----------


## Benoojian

I was told my night ability cannot target the Narrator, I don't know if that is a general rule or a Quirk of my ability.

----------


## Illven

> Comparison scry. I could only tell you if he's the same alignment as another player.


Yes, which we check with Cae. If they are different stab stab.

----------


## AvatarVecna

Main reason I think Rogan isn't the last corrupted isn't because he wouldn't wanna repeat a different game's trick inherently, but because this particular trick only works if noone is really expecting it. Speaking from experience: winning as narrator takes longer than literally any other win, and the longer a game goes on, the more players put their heads together, the easier it is to realize everyone's telling the truth. If not for one particular player not checking their scry PM the night before LYLO, I would've lost. The more powers there are in a game, particular info powers, and the more open-ended they are, the easier it is to get caught, especially if people are already kinda thinking about that because 1) it's been done recently, and 2) at least one player has been told the narrator can be targeted with some stuff.

I think it's more likely that Rogan is hero narrator or neutral narrator, and killing them has some inconvenient-but-not-game-ending effect. I'm not sure I'm willing to risk a game this close to solved on it, though. We get another night of info powers, we get another lynch somewhere else. Maybe we show up tomorrow and lynch clears Cazero, I clear Kraken, Kraken clears 3SC, and at that point we've either solved the game properly, or it's just Rogan.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Main reason I think Rogan isn't the last corrupted isn't because he wouldn't wanna repeat a different game's trick inherently, but because this particular trick only works if noone is really expecting it. Speaking from experience: winning as narrator takes longer than literally any other win, and the longer a game goes on, the more players put their heads together, the easier it is to realize everyone's telling the truth. If not for one particular player not checking their scry PM the night before LYLO, I would've lost. The more powers there are in a game, particular info powers, and the more open-ended they are, the easier it is to get caught, especially if people are already kinda thinking about that because 1) it's been done recently, and 2) at least one player has been told the narrator can be targeted with some stuff.
> 
> I think it's more likely that Rogan is hero narrator or neutral narrator, and killing them has some inconvenient-but-not-game-ending effect. I'm not sure I'm willing to risk a game this close to solved on it, though. We get another night of info powers, we get another lynch somewhere else. Maybe we show up tomorrow and lynch clears Cazero, I clear Kraken, Kraken clears 3SC, and at that point we've either solved the game properly, or it's just Rogan.


Again, I'm not clearing 3Secondcultist, I'll be clearing someone else who's (close) to confirmed town. If the corrupted knows who I am targeting there exists potential for interference. Otherwise agree though.

----------


## Batcathat

> I think it's more likely that Rogan is hero narrator or neutral narrator, and killing them has some inconvenient-but-not-game-ending effect. I'm not sure I'm willing to risk a game this close to solved on it, though. We get another night of info powers, we get another lynch somewhere else. Maybe we show up tomorrow and lynch clears Cazero, I clear Kraken, Kraken clears 3SC, and at that point we've either solved the game properly, or it's just Rogan.


I agree. Considering lynching Rogan could easily be bad for town or at least not getting us closer to winning, it does seem like a good idea to try and gather more information and rule out other possibilities first. If Rogan is the final corrupted, I doubt he'll win tonight.

The one thing that does worry me a little (even if it's probably very unlikely) is the possibility that Rogan isn't corrupted but the reveal of the strong possibility that he is in some sense a player might've given the actual corrupted some idea about doing something to Rogan tonight.

----------


## Illven

> I agree. Considering lynching Rogan could easily be bad for town or at least not getting us closer to winning, it does seem like a good idea to try and gather more information and rule out other possibilities first. If Rogan is the final corrupted, I doubt he'll win tonight.
> 
> The one thing that does worry me a little (even if it's probably very unlikely) is the possibility that Rogan isn't corrupted but the reveal of the strong possibility that he is in some sense a player might've given the actual corrupted some idea about doing something to Rogan tonight.


I mean that's possible, but Rogan was concerned about balance. If the wolves win condition is to kill the mayor, I don't feel like its as simple as nk.

----------


## Batcathat

> I mean that's possible, but Rogan was concerned about balance. If the wolves win condition is to kill the mayor, I don't feel like its as simple as nk.


Yeah, that's probably a good point. Never good for balance to create a game where one side can win N1 with a single move.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Yeah, that's probably a good point. Never good for balance to create a game where one side can win N1 with a single move.


Not unless it's to prove a point.

----------


## Illven

> Not unless it's to prove a point.


I think the point was learned?

----------


## AvatarVecna

> I think the point was learned?


Not the one I'm talking about  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Illven

> Not the one I'm talking about


I am new plz explain,  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Batcathat

Is it everyone's a vig and massacres each other N1?

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Is it everyone's a vig and massacres each other N1?


Shhhhh don't spoil the surprise, now I have to push it back three games!
Or do I?

----------


## Benoojian

> Shhhhh don't spoil the surprise, now I have to push it back three games!
> Or do I?


Town of Salem has a mode like that, where half the town is vig and half the town is witches (switch who target player targets) it's bananas and usually over by d3.

- - - Updated - - -

Being unable to target the Narrator is specific to my boon, per Narrator, so I am on board the investigate the Narrator train

*Unvote Rogan*

----------


## Illven

So are we lynching someone, or no?

----------


## Benoojian

So we are fairly convinced that the Narrator or the Mayor count as a separate player

If they're Town, one of the Town claims is false

If they're Tempted, then one of the 3 Tempted was converted (The obvious Narrator temptation is being lynched by the town you love so it may be a 2 night kill, but who knows)

If they're Neutral, one of the Neutral claims is Corrupted 

If they're Corrupted, hooray

Possible booby traps:
"Lose all boons" Eh.
"Town loses" Well that's unfortunate, but also a terrible mechanic.
"All Tempted become Corrupted" We already know the Tempted, that just slows us down
"Reverse the polarity of the neutron flow" Well that's just sciencey babbling

Kill or Investigate, the phantom player is the key. Rogan implied but did not state that if he were the only Corrupted he would not allow himself to pick his nightly victim but do it randomly. (which would explain the frankly insane kill choices) but that suggests we have time to lynch someone else and investigate.

*Cazero*

----------


## Illven

> "All Tempted become Corrupted" We already know the Tempted, that just slows us down


I can say, I know for a fact that's not true. I don't have a hidden qualifier on my method to become corrupt. Since the details were supposed to be revealed to me it must not be related to the narrator.

*Cazero*

----------


## AvatarVecna

Yeah let's get *Cazero* out and minimize the harm he can do.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

I feel bad about lynching Cazero here, but if he's unwilling to work with town, he's probably the best bet. 

I think that one of the Heroes is in fact the Corrupted. That would be my bet.

----------


## Illven

> I feel bad about lynching Cazero here, but if he's unwilling to work with town, he's probably the best bet. 
> 
> I think that one of the Heroes is in fact the Corrupted. That would be my bet.


We can reevaluate tomorrow based on Vecna and/or my info.

----------


## flat_footed

Man, I get back in and see several new pages of activity. I've started reading and will finish catching up right after this post.

My role is The Hunter, Hero. My boon is forcing someone to vote for someone else, which I haven't had to use yet, and my power is to track someone at night. Once per game, however, I can hunt instead of track another player and kill them, which I did Night 1 to JeenLeen.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Man, I get back in and see several new pages of activity. I've started reading and will finish catching up right after this post.
> 
> My role is The Hunter, Hero. My boon is forcing someone to vote for someone else, which I haven't had to use yet, and my power is to track someone at night. Once per game, however, I can hunt instead of track another player and kill them, which I did Night 1 to JeenLeen.


Yeah there have been uh, a lot of developments. 

Why JeenLeen, out of curiosity? I can buy this overall but I am curious what made you pull the trigger (though that goes a long way towards clearing you).

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Yeah there have been uh, a lot of developments. 
> 
> Why JeenLeen, out of curiosity? I can buy this overall but I am curious what made you pull the trigger (though that goes a long way towards clearing you).


The gun trigger is irresistible.

----------


## Benoojian

> Also, I just realized that despite starting surprisingly slow, this game already has the most pages since Upick 2 (though at this point I'm kind of hoping we won't get to a second thread, because that probably means something has gone horribly wrong.  )


Wait, do most games not have this much ridiculous overthinking?

----------


## Persolus

> Wait, do most games not have this much ridiculous overthinking?


Apparently not, or at least the overthinking is resolved quickly.

- - - Updated - - -

Also this game has had a lot more witty banter than usual.

----------


## Snowblaze

Heroes (8)
3SecondCultist 
Allando
AvatarVecna
Batcathat
Benoojian
Caedorus
flat_footed 
Let'sGetKraken 

Tempted (2)
Ilven 
Snowblaze 

Neutrals (4)
Cazero
Metastachydium
Persolus
Rakkoon

So due to the mysterious twenty-second player we don't know which category the last wolf is in. I think we can reasonably assume that Rogan is the twenty-second player and not the last wolf. It also seems likely he's the Mayor. 

So...question is, what is Rogan's alignment? 

Well, that's _one_ of the questions, anyway.

Other questions being: do there exist any non-wolves with the power to redirect actions? (Yes. bladescape. And I didn't ask him, and now he's dead.)

And who killed Ti and Wombat? And if it was wolves, _why?_

And what is the wolves' alternative win condition?

And of course, most importantly: who is the last Corrupted?

I think Cazero is the most suspicious neutral claim, Kraken is the most suspicious hero claim (purely by POE), and there exist worlds where Ilven is corrupted and this twenty-second player thing is just a lie.

Eh. *Cazero* until and unless he can give us good reasons to not kill him. I don't like killing neutrals, but if the neutrals won't help town, haven't full claimed and could actually be wolves... I think in those circumstances I can make an exception.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay, so there are hypothetical worlds where bladescape targeted wolf!flat with alcohol and redirected him to Jeen. Tinfoil, but then most possibilities are atp.

----------


## Batcathat

> Kill or Investigate, the phantom player is the key. Rogan implied but did not state that if he were the only Corrupted he would not allow himself to pick his nightly victim but do it randomly. (which would explain the frankly insane kill choices) but that suggests we have time to lynch someone else and investigate.


Yeah, I suppose this would be a point in favor of Rogan being the last corrupted, the kill choices have been very odd. 

Though we should be open to other explanations for the math mismatch than Rogan counting as a player, even if it's probably the most likely one.




> I feel bad about lynching Cazero here, but if he's unwilling to work with town, he's probably the best bet.


*Cazero* wouldn't be my first choice either (though at this point, I'm honestly not sure who my first choice even would be), but I suppose a lynch that won't kill a townie and have a non-zero chance of killing a wolf isn't the worst. 




> Apparently not, or at least the overthinking is resolved quickly.


I think the overthinking is about the same as always (at least in games with potential bastard mechanics). I suspect the number of pages is a combination of the unusually high number of players and the fact that it's typically the most active players that die first, which hasn't really been the case here (with blade being the only exception I can think of).

----------


## Cazero

Alright, this didn't work out. Time to come clean.
I'm not the Mercenary. I can't night kill anything and I most definitely don't have the ability to kill people targeting me that I was going to pretend having.
I'm the Mayor, neutral. My wincon is to outlive the one who wants me dead (wich is probably *persolus*), and now I'm almost certainly getting night killed.

I can prove that I'm mayor. I have a watcher-like boon. The mayor proclamation today was referencing the fluff of Batcathat's ability. I got a full description of it but not Batcathat's alignement, but the ability doesn't make sense as anything other than hero.

----------


## Benoojian

> Alright, this didn't work out. Time to come clean.
> I'm not the Mercenary. I can't night kill anything and I most definitely don't have the ability to kill people targeting me that I was going to pretend having.
> I'm the Mayor, neutral. My wincon is to outlive the one who wants me dead (wich is probably *persolus*), and now I'm almost certainly getting night killed.


Specifically ONE who wants you dead?

----------


## Cazero

Specificaly one, yes.

----------


## rakkoon

I didn't like the whole *Persolus* I'm a Mason, I'm cleared, I'm a neutral thing anyway.

----------


## Batcathat

> The mayor proclamation today was referencing the fluff of Batcathat's ability. I got a full description of it but not Batcathat's alignement, but the ability doesn't make sense as anything other than hero.


I can confirm that this part is almost certainly true.




> I didn't like the whole *Persolus* I'm a Mason, I'm cleared, I'm a neutral thing anyway.


I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but considering some sort of supposed connection with you was basically the only reason I stopped wanting to lynch Persolus...

----------


## Persolus

> I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but considering some sort of supposed connection with you was basically the only reason I stopped wanting to lynch Persolus...


I am also confused as to what Rakkoon means - the connection we have is that we both can verify the other is a neutral. Rakkoon did not take me up on this offer.

- - - Updated - - -




> I didn't like the whole *Persolus* I'm a Mason, I'm cleared, I'm a neutral thing anyway.


I don't think _anyone_ ever said I was a Mason? I was one in the last game I played (well, Lover, technically) but that was an entirely different game. Also, Kraken was the one to say I was cleared, not me. The only time I specifically stated what alignment I have was "I am Neutral."

----------


## Batcathat

> I am also confused as to what Rakkoon means - the connection we have is that we both can verify the other is a neutral. Rakkoon did not take me up on this offer.


Maybe you can take the initiative and reveal the first part? In fact, I would kind of prefer it that way around, since I'm more suspicious of you than Rakkoon and guessing the second part of a phrase would be a lot easier than guessing the first part.

----------


## Persolus

"In light of two players leaving, I'll offer you and another neutral the same boost:
If you are still alive ....."

----------


## Caedorus

> Actually, might be able to do something. Its stupid and will probably not work.
> 
> Allando, is your mason chat with Caedorus explicitly part of your powerset, or is it your boon? If you could actually full claim with powers and boom, that would help me a lot.
> 
> Basically, I can give someone else your powers (permanently, I think). Once per game, the Prince can create a new Knight from anyone in the town.


It is a boon,  us being brothers and all.



> And if lynching based on the answer goes bad for us, we know Illven is corrupted.
> 
> Hey that reminds me, to lynched people get to use their powers on the night they're voted but not dead yet?


Yes, I got to target that fateful night.



> 1 corrupted, 2 tempted. 4 neutral, 8 heroes Alive
> And Rogan says combined with the dead players plus absent that adds up to 22. He says that's deliberate.


Yeah ninjja'd but too lazy to either backspace it or unquote it.

- - - Updated - - -

How long to EOD, anyone? I can't find my vote but voting *Letsgetkraken* bc I trust blade's legacy.

_Caedorus was there. He was always there, even when they tried to kill him. He always knew everyting that wasn't important, but now it was. He said the alchemist had claimed Kraken was scum with his dying breath, and we should send them to the executioner for questioning._

- - - Updated - - -

I realised something important: if I targeted a wolf, I might get something from another wolf.

----------


## rakkoon

Are we supposed to have the same text?
Mine said "Since two players leaving the game unexpectedly reduced your chances a bit, I'm willing to offer..."
Also, I had a new downside to my "easier" victory. 
I'm not feeling the vibe...
My vote stays on Persolus.

----------


## Persolus

> Are we supposed to have the same text?
> Mine said "Since two players leaving the game unexpectedly reduced your chances a bit, I'm willing to offer..."
> Also, I had a new downside to my "easier" victory. 
> I'm not feeling the vibe...
> My vote stays on Persolus.


Ok, how many additional points did you get?
I also had a downside, but it was specified that this was unique to mine, since I think our win cons are different.

----------


## Batcathat

> How long to EOD, anyone? I can't find my vote but voting *Letsgetkraken* bc I trust blade's legacy.


It should be in a little over 11 hours from now. 




> Are we supposed to have the same text?
> Mine said "Since two players leaving the game unexpectedly reduced your chances a bit, I'm willing to offer..."
> Also, I had a new downside to my "easier" victory. 
> I'm not feeling the vibe...
> My vote stays on Persolus.


This situation is giving me a headache. Is Persolus a wolf trying a really bold bluff or did Rogan just phrase it differently? (I suppose there's also worlds where Rakkoon is the last corrupted, but that's feeling less likely).

----------


## Snowblaze

If my neutral source is reliable then Persolus is probably telling the truth. I think. Unless he got relevant information from somewhere else. 

Wait. Let me check something. I might have just solved this.

----------


## Batcathat

Assuming Illven is honest about the numbers, both Rakkoon and Persolus can't be wolves (and both of them plus Illven being corrupted seems unlikely, if it's even possible) so presumably at least one of them is honest about the message. Which would mean that if one of them is lying, there should be another neutral who got the message and could speak out about it. Unless that's BW, I guess, but with him dying the same night as the two players leaving, it seems unlikely (though I guess Rogan might've decided how to handle players leaving before knowing who would die?). So... that's a point in favor of both of them being who they say they are, I think?

----------


## Snowblaze

Apparently I'm not allowed to know the thing I was trying to check. Never mind that, then. Back to "kill and test our way through the POE until we hopefully win".

----------


## Caedorus

> If my neutral source is reliable then Persolus is probably telling the truth. I think. Unless he got relevant information from somewhere else. 
> 
> Wait. Let me check something. I might have just solved this.


Yes, I think so too. It feels like it can be solved; I'm just still phoneposting and in a car so can't really think much.

----------


## Illven

Hey, Ben. Can you stop a lynch today? If so lynch me and when I flip tempted you'll see I can be trusted AND I can still use secret knowledge.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Hey, Ben. Can you stop a lynch today? If so lynch me and when I flip tempted you'll see I can be trusted AND I can still use secret knowledge.


This would also confirm the numbers you provided. If possible this is a good approach.

----------


## Batcathat

Yeah, that would be pretty nice. With confirmed numbers (and thus Illven and Snow confirmed non-corrupted) and presumably some new intel, we should be able to piece everything together by D4. Aside from guaranteeing the wolves another night to act, I can't really think of a downside.

----------


## Illven

The only point of concern is that since I won't be allowed to speak we need to figure out the two yes or no questions for secret knowledge.

I'm thinking.

Q1 Is the most pro-town lynch Rogan.
Q2 The same, but whoever we decide is the most sus.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> The only point of concern is that since I won't be allowed to speak we need to figure out the two yes or no questions for secret knowledge.
> 
> I'm thinking.
> 
> Q1 Is the most pro-town lynch Rogan.
> Q2 The same, but whoever we decide is the most sus.


I like the first question. 

A possible second question would be "Do the Heroes have the best chance of winning by lynching someone who is currently claiming to be a Hero?"

Alternate questions for verifying individual people:

"Are the masons both the same mechanical alignment?" (Clears Allandro)
"Do the Prince and his Knights share the same alignment?" (Clears 3SecondCultist, since there can't be more than one Corrupted)
"Do the Seer and the Seer's Apprentice share the same alignment?" (Clears AV)
"Does the Hunter only have access to a single kill, including team/faction abilities?" (Possibly clears Flat_footed - thoughts?) 

*Also - and this is very important - confirm with Rogan that your corruption mechanic:
*
a) Applies to three power uses and not three questions
b) Does not count the use of your boon

Would suck if you were to accidentally become corrupted.

----------


## Snowblaze

I support that plan, with Benoojian's confirmation. Question One should probably be "is Rogan Corrupted?" and... let's make Question Two "are there currently four living neutrals, excluding Rogan?" 

That confirms that we don't need to kill the narrator and narrows down the suspect pool to one of two groups. We can have Kraken vote flat for vote-scry, AV scry Kraken tonight and then kill Cazero if the answer to Question Two is "no", whichever of the hero claims isn't mechanically clear if it's "yes".

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

Also, can we get a full claim from @BatCatHat, unless I missed it somewhere? With only one Corrupted, I feel like having all the cards on the table is best right now. Wolves can only kill one person per round, and with so many high-priority kill targets already I feel like 

Allandro - you can Guard someone, yes? Don't say who it is, *but it should be one of the information-gathering roles or Benoojian.

*Caedorus - in case I missed it, what were the results of your power last night? Did they confirm anyone? Are they at all relevant?

- - - Updated - - -




> I support that plan, with Benoojian's confirmation. Question One should probably be "is Rogan Corrupted?" and... let's make Question Two "are there currently four living neutrals, excluding Rogan?" 
> 
> That confirms that we don't need to kill the narrator and narrows down the suspect pool to one of two groups. We can have Kraken vote flat for vote-scry, AV scry Kraken tonight and then kill Cazero if the answer to Question Two is "no", whichever of the hero claims isn't mechanically clear if it's "yes".


Just pointing out that flat has a vote redirect so I might not be the best person to check flat.

----------


## Batcathat

> "Are the masons both the same mechanical alignment?" (Clears Allandro)
> "Do the Prince and his Knights share the same alignment?" (Clears 3SecondCultist, since there can't be more than one Corrupted)
> "Do the Seer and the Seer's Apprentice share the same alignment?" (Clears AV)
> "Does the Hunter only have access to a single kill, including team/faction abilities?" (Possibly clears Flat_footed - thoughts?)


Out of these, I think clearing Cultist or flat would be the most useful. Allandro is already confirmed unless Rogan is straight up lying, I think? And while I'm always at least like 20 percent paranoid about AV, they feel very towny after the Xi thing. I also wouldn't mind something that cleared Kraken.

- - - Updated - - -




> Also, can we get a full claim from @BatCatHat, unless I missed it somewhere? With only one Corrupted, I feel like having all the cards on the table is best right now. Wolves can only kill one person per round, and with so many high-priority kill targets already I feel like


I have not claimed, no. If the majority (of the more-or-less-confirmed townies) wishes me to, I might do it. But otherwise I think knowing my full role would be more likely to help the wolves than town.

----------


## Snowblaze

> Also, can we get a full claim from @BatCatHat, unless I missed it somewhere? With only one Corrupted, I feel like having all the cards on the table is best right now. Wolves can only kill one person per round, and with so many high-priority kill targets already I feel like 
> 
> Allandro - you can Guard someone, yes? Don't say who it is, *but it should be one of the information-gathering roles or Benoojian.
> 
> *Caedorus - in case I missed it, what were the results of your power last night? Did they confirm anyone? Are they at all relevant?


I believe Caedorus's N2 result was the flat-has-killed-someone thing. 

Trying to figure out if my ability to send messages is useful for anything. I guess we could use it to test a claim that involves some sort of interference with actions, but those are afaik Meta who already has supporting evidence and Kraken which would require something harmful to be directed my way.

- - - Updated - - -

Right, forgot that part. Check 3SC with vote-scry, then, I guess?

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> I believe Caedorus's N2 result was the flat-has-killed-someone thing. 
> 
> Trying to figure out if my ability to send messages is useful for anything. I guess we could use it to test a claim that involves some sort of interference with actions, but those are afaik Meta who already has supporting evidence and Kraken which would require something harmful to be directed my way.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Right, forgot that part. Check 3SC with vote-scry, then, I guess?


Yeah that's probably fine. I'm worried that if I'm transparent about who I'm voting for ahead of time, someone might interfere. So I'll be voting last minute and it will be for one of Allandro, 3Second, or BatCatHat.

- - - Updated - - -




> I believe Caedorus's N2 result was the flat-has-killed-someone thing. 
> 
> Trying to figure out if my ability to send messages is useful for anything. I guess we could use it to test a claim that involves some sort of interference with actions, but those are afaik Meta who already has supporting evidence and Kraken which would require something harmful to be directed my way.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Right, forgot that part. Check 3SC with vote-scry, then, I guess?


Persolus might be able to reveal more about their role if it's not in a public chat. Might be worth connecting with them. Alternatively, might be worth connecting with Allandro to advise as to who to protect tonight.

----------


## Batcathat

> Yeah that's probably fine. I'm worried that if I'm transparent about who I'm voting for ahead of time, someone might interfere. So I'll be voting last minute and it will be for one of Allandro, 3Second, or BatCatHat.


I didn't emphasize this earlier, since looking less confirmed than I am could be useful, but since I don't want to risk you blowing a chance to gather useful intel by confirming me: Caedorus, Allando and Benoojian should all have individually received mechanical confirmation that I'm town (as did flat, but that's less useful) so I'm about as confirmed as it's possible to get without a public narrator confirmation.

----------


## Illven

> "Are the masons both the same mechanical alignment?" (Clears Allandro)
> "Do the Prince and his Knights share the same alignment?" (Clears 3SecondCultist, since there can't be more than one Corrupted)
> "Do the Seer and the Seer's Apprentice share the same alignment?" (Clears AV)
> "Does the Hunter only have access to a single kill, including team/faction abilities?" (Possibly clears Flat_footed - thoughts?) 
> 
> *Also - and this is very important - confirm with Rogan that your corruption mechanic:
> *
> a) Applies to three power uses and not three questions
> b) Does not count the use of your boon
> ...


With how much Caedrous has stated that that Allandro is town, I feel that question is worthless without serious incompetence on his part.
An option
An option
An option




> I support that plan, with Benoojian's confirmation. Question One should probably be "is Rogan Corrupted?" and... let's make Question Two "are there currently four living neutrals, excluding Rogan?" 
> 
> That confirms that we don't need to kill the narrator and narrows down the suspect pool to one of two groups. We can have Kraken vote flat for vote-scry, AV scry Kraken tonight and then kill Cazero if the answer to Question Two is "no", whichever of the hero claims isn't mechanically clear if it's "yes".


Question 1 Can't be asked.
Question 2 Is an option.

Oh also to answer the second part of Kraken's statement.

I already did both.

----------


## Caedorus

> Out of these, I think clearing Cultist or flat would be the most useful. Allandro is already confirmed unless Rogan is straight up lying, I think? And while I'm always at least like 20 percent paranoid about AV, they feel very towny after the Xi thing. I also wouldn't mind something that cleared Kraken.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> 
> I have not claimed, no. If the majority (of the more-or-less-confirmed townies) wishes me to, I might do it. But otherwise I think knowing my full role would be more likely to help the wolves than town.


I wouldn't, unless you could use input on what to do.



> I didn't emphasize this earlier, since looking less confirmed than I am could be useful, but since I don't want to risk you blowing a chance to gather useful intel by confirming me: Caedorus, Allando and Benoojian should all have individually received mechanical confirmation that I'm town (as did flat, but that's less useful) so I'm about as confirmed as it's possible to get without a public narrator confirmation.


Can confirm, Rogan confirmed to us in a private chat they are a Hero.

----------


## Illven

Wait a minute, how likely do you we think 

Caz's statement of. I have to outlive the one who wants me dead.

Combined with "The victory conditions of neutral players wont prevent any other player from winning."

Something here doesn't pass the smell test, cause that would imply that either one wolf has an additional victory condition, or a neutral's win condition is Caz's death.

Which is mutually exclusive? :Small Confused: 


Heading to work, I'll try to post if Ben posts before the end of day.

----------


## Metastachydium

So we're lynching (i.e. "lynching") Illven, after all, right? Makes sense.

♣
In other news, I have a boon power using which I can protect someone tonight. Just saying in case it gets relevant.

- - - Updated - - -




> Wait a minute, how likely do you we think 
> 
> Caz's statement of. I have to outlive the one who wants me dead.
> 
> Combined with "The victory conditions of neutral players wont prevent any other player from winning."
> 
> Something here doesn't pass the smell test, cause that would imply that either one wolf has an additional victory condition, or a neutral's win condition is Caz's death.
> 
> Which is mutually exclusive?


Technically, if one only needs to live _longer_ than the other and the other only needs the one to _die at some point_ (exact order irrelevant), it could work. But yeah, that's fishy, especially coming from Cazero.

----------


## Caedorus

I smell fish too (want to post gif but can't).

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> I didn't emphasize this earlier, since looking less confirmed than I am could be useful, but since I don't want to risk you blowing a chance to gather useful intel by confirming me: Caedorus, Allando and Benoojian should all have individually received mechanical confirmation that I'm town (as did flat, but that's less useful) so I'm about as confirmed as it's possible to get without a public narrator confirmation.


If multiple town can vouch for you and it's mechanically cleared and not just 'Bat says he's clear via a back channel', don't bother claiming. That's fine then. 

Yeah the Cazero thing is very sus, but confirming Illven might be better?

----------


## Batcathat

> Yeah the Cazero thing is very sus, but confirming Illven might be better?


Lynching Caz is kind of all or nothing, either he's the final wolf and we win the game or we gain almost nothing (confirming his claim would help a little, but not nearly as much as confirming Illven and her numbers). With Illven, we should gain important information regardless.

I'm not sure what option I prefer. It's tempting to try and win right away, but going with Illven might be the smarter move in the long run.

----------


## Illven

Should I ask about Caz as my second question?

----------


## Batcathat

> Should I ask about Caz as my second question?


Yeah, if we don't lynch him, that's probably a good option (though so are checking out one of the other unconfirmeds).

Speaking of confirmation, has Benoojian confirmed whether or not they can save the lynched?

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Yeah, if we don't lynch him, that's probably a good option (though so are checking out one of the other unconfirmeds).
> 
> Speaking of confirmation, has Benoojian confirmed whether or not they can save the lynched?


So, four options:

1) Benoojian confirms that he learns the alignment of people when he saves them from being lynched. We lynch Illven and Benoojian saves them, confirming Illven's alignment. 
2) Benoojian confirms that he doesn't learn the alignment of people when he saves them from being lynched. We lynch Cazero for being sketchy. 
3) Benoojian says nothing/doesn't confirm due to time stuff, in which case we lynch Cazero because we need Illven's answers tonight. 
4) We can't get a majority vote onto either Illven or Cazero in time, and 3SecondCultist announces a grand holiday (last resort). 

Sound like a plan?

----------


## Allando

> 3SC is not cleared by the Masons, 3SC has not had alignment cleared by anyone, only role. He is still low on my suspect list, but far above BCH who was cleared by myself and flat. BCH being Corrupted REQUIRES 3 more non-Town roles and I doubt town would have done this well if there were only 7 townies.





> Yeah that's probably fine. I'm worried that if I'm transparent about who I'm voting for ahead of time, someone might interfere. So I'll be voting last minute and it will be for one of Allandro, 3Second, or BatCatHat.


Cultist is either actually the Prince ATM or gg you deserve the win.



> So, four options:
> 
> 1) Benoojian confirms that he learns the alignment of people when he saves them from being lynched. We lynch Illven and Benoojian saves them, confirming Illven's alignment. 
> 2) Benoojian confirms that he doesn't learn the alignment of people when he saves them from being lynched. We lynch Cazero for being sketchy. 
> 3) Benoojian says nothing/doesn't confirm due to time stuff, in which case we lynch Cazero because we need Illven's answers tonight. 
> 4) We can't get a majority vote onto either Illven or Cazero in time, and 3SecondCultist announces a grand holiday (last resort). 
> 
> Sound like a plan?


Caedorus flipped after being saved so the same would presumably happen to *Illven.*

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Cultist is either actually the Prince ATM or gg you deserve the win.
> 
> Caedorus flipped after being saved so the same would presumably happen to *Illven.*


I'm sure he's the Prince. It's whether he's Corrupted and the Prince which is up for debate. I'm leaning no based on behaviour. 

Hey didn't Cultist say he could make someone town a Knight? Can that only be done for town? Could that be used to mechanically verify someone's alignment? Because if so, do it to Flat_footed. 

Good point. So long as Benoojian can confirm he can use it today, let's vote Illven out.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> I'm sure he's the Prince. It's whether he's Corrupted and the Prince which is up for debate. I'm leaning no based on behaviour. 
> 
> Hey didn't Cultist say he could make someone town a Knight? Can that only be done for town? Could that be used to mechanically verify someone's alignment? Because if so, do it to Flat_footed. 
> 
> Good point. So long as Benoojian can confirm he can use it today, let's vote Illven out.


I dont know, maybe I do deserve to win.

Kidding! (Or not).

I can make anyone a Knight, regardless of alignment. Its a 1/game power, but I can do it at any time to anyone. It is also incidentally how I planned on clearing myself (since I was going to ask a player to step away from their device for an hour or so to have Allando full-claim as I knighted them, then return to see the exact same powers).

It will not, however, verify a persons alignment. I could accidentally give the Knight to a wolf, which is one of the reasons I havent used it yet. And Im thankful for that, since Ive been 0/3 on major wolfreads this game.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, and *Illven*.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> I dont know, maybe I do deserve to win.
> 
> Kidding! (Or not).
> 
> I can make anyone a Knight, regardless of alignment. Its a 1/game power, but I can do it at any time to anyone. It is also incidentally how I planned on clearing myself (since I was going to ask a player to step away from their device for an hour or so to have Allando full-claim as I knighted them, then return to see the exact same powers).
> 
> It will not, however, verify a persons alignment. I could accidentally give the Knight to a wolf, which is one of the reasons I havent used it yet. And Im thankful for that, since Ive been 0/3 on major wolfreads this game.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> ...


Hm, probably hold off on that then for now if it doesn't prove alignment, only role. 

Does it replace someone's powers, or add to them?

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> Hm, probably hold off on that then for now if it doesn't prove alignment, only role. 
> 
> Does it replace someone's powers, or add to them?


It adds to them permanently. At least, there was no time limit that Rohan put on it.

I have a lot of powers.

----------


## Cazero

Might be a bit early still, but Rogan asked for one of those.

*Vote count*
*Illven 3* : persolus, allando, 3SC
*Kraken 1* : caedorus
*persolus 2* : cazero, rakkoon
*Cazero 5* : benoojian, Illven, AV, snowblaze, batcathat

----------


## Benoojian

> If multiple town can vouch for you and it's mechanically cleared and not just 'Bat says he's clear via a back channel', don't bother claiming. That's fine then. 
> 
> Yeah the Cazero thing is very sus, but confirming Illven might be better?


I received this message from Rogan

Batcathat used the following power on you:
Gifting: Each night, you can gift your rations to living players. They will learn your power and alignment. You cant target more players than youve got rations, but you may keep some rations for later usage.
*They are a hero*

I don't see any loopholes in this, and flat hinted at receiving rations as well as the Mayor, so I don't think BCH is worth wasting a scry on.

Also, I cannot save someone tonight.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Also, I cannot save someone tonight.


That's not ideal. So, Illven or Cazero?

----------


## Benoojian

If one of the town claims is actually a Tempted that has not converted, you need to come clean so we can narrow the targets down to only the Tempted.

----------


## Batcathat

> That's not ideal. So, Illven or Cazero?


Yeah, that is the question. Illven's flip will be valuable even if it's permanent, but obviously less so. Maybe it's worth it to lynch Caz today and, provided that doesn't end the game, lynch Illven (whether temporarily or permanently) tomorrow?

----------


## Benoojian

3SC, you should probably give the Knight power to a townie as soon as possible, rather than anyone even slightly questionable. Caedorus is my first choice, with myself or BCH as second choice

----------


## Allando

> I received this message from Rogan
> 
> Batcathat used the following power on you:
> Gifting: Each night, you can gift your rations to living players. They will learn your power and alignment. You cant target more players than youve got rations, but you may keep some rations for later usage.
> *They are a hero*
> 
> I don't see any loopholes in this, and flat hinted at receiving rations as well as the Mayor, so I don't think BCH is worth wasting a scry on.
> 
> Also, I cannot save someone tonight.


I also received one of those BTW that's why we were clearing bat

----------


## Benoojian

And I'm staying on Cazero because their wincon doesn't make sense under the no wincon can directly prevent another rule, so I smell wolf.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> 3SC, you should probably give the Knight power to a townie as soon as possible, rather than anyone even slightly questionable. Caedorus is my first choice, with myself or BCH as second choice


Yes, I also vote Caedorus here as the recipient of Knight powers - or BatCatHat, if BHC doesn't have a useful night power (as Caedorus' information gathering might be very useful). 

While the information from Illven's flip is deeply, deeply useful, right now we don't have a reason to distrust them and the potential gain from them asking their questions is huge. I say Cazero, as much as it sucks, as the information Illven can provide while alive could very well win us the game.

----------


## Benoojian

Note that if Illven lied about not using his power one of the nights, he could flip Corrupted tonight by asking questions.
So if Cazero flips Corrupted and the game doesn't end...

----------


## Metastachydium

Alright. *Cazero*, then. In the meantime, any suggestion on who I should protect tonight that you dare make in public?

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Alright. *Cazero*, then. In the meantime, any suggestion on who I should protect tonight that you dare make in public?


I feel like it's clear who the high priority town members are based on what information they can provide tonight. If Snow can loop you and Allando into another chat without that rending you unable to use your defensive power, I would suggest that be what happens.

----------


## Batcathat

> And I'm staying on Cazero because their wincon doesn't make sense under the no wincon can directly prevent another rule, so I smell wolf.


Just to play Devil's advocate (quite fitting, given the game), I suppose "The victory conditions of neutral players wont prevent any other player from winning" _could_ be read as "the victory conditions of neutral players (as a group) won't prevent any other player (as in, any non-neutral player) from winning". But that's a stretch at best (not to mention some other suspicious things), so Cazero remains a very likely suspect.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

Done and done.

----------


## Snowblaze

> I feel like it's clear who the high priority town members are based on what information they can provide tonight. If Snow can loop you and Allando into another chat without that rending you unable to use your defensive power, I would suggest that be what happens.


That... isn't how my power works. I get one private chat per game, which was supposed to be me/bladescape and is now me/Meta. I can now send a single message per night.

Any corrupted flip followed by game not ending implies Ilven was either lying about the numbers and so is corrupted or she's become corrupted, yes. Though why you'd choose to join the side that's clearly losing...

No objections to killing Cazero, then. Sorry if you are in fact a neutral, but...

----------


## Benoojian

> Done and done.


Now do we want the new Knight to confirm or stay secret?

----------


## 3SecondCultist

Confirmation would be nice from Caedorus.

With 40 minutes left in the day, my vote is staying where it is on Illven.

Is you all want a Royal Celebration, speak now. Headed into an appointment so I will miss EoD.

----------


## Persolus

According to Rogan, it is _possible_ for a "outlive someone needing to kill me" role to have a victory - so long as it an additional condition, not the sole one.

----------


## Benoojian

Slight Sidebar: The recent game with the Scum!Narrator, how long ago was that, and was it before Rogan put this game on the calendar?

- - - Updated - - -




> Confirmation would be nice from Caedorus.
> 
> With 40 minutes left in the day, my vote is staying where it is on Illven.
> 
> Is you all want a Royal Celebration, speak now. Headed into an appointment so I will miss EoD.


Do we get to know what Royal Celebration does?

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> Do we get to know what Royal Celebration does?


Its my cancel the lynch power, in case of an 11th hour revelation or claim.

----------


## Benoojian

> According to Rogan, it is _possible_ for a "outlive someone needing to kill me" role to have a victory - so long as it an additional condition, not the sole one.


Additional condition on the killer or the survivor?

----------


## 3SecondCultist

Sorry, meant Royal Holiday. Phoneposting.

----------


## Benoojian

> Its my cancel the lynch power, in case of an 11th hour revelation or claim.


Does it still get a Death Flip?

----------


## Persolus

> Additional condition on the killer or the survivor?


On the Killer.

" If one player simply had to survive in order to win, there might not be a player who needs to outlive them. Otherwise, they would prevent each other from winning.

If, on the other hand, a player had some other victory condition, especially one which might be fullfilled while dead (which is true for all tempted, heroes and corrupted and might be true for neutrals), this would be fine."

----------


## Rogan

> According to Rogan, it is _possible_ for a "outlive someone needing to kill me" role to have a victory - so long as it an additional condition, not the sole one.


Slight correction here (which I assume to be a misunderstanding):

A role which needs to outlive some other role is possible, as long as this other role has a way to win while dead.
Similar, even a role who needs to kill a specific player would be legal, again, as long as the target has a way to win while dead.

A role who needs to be the last one standing is impossible, because this would prevent the teams from winning.

----------


## Cazero

So for example an Anarchist needing to kill the Judge (from corrupted), the Prince (from heroes) and the Mayor (from neutrals), without a care in the world about their own survival, is perfectly viable.

- - - Updated - - -

The point being : instead of making assumptions that invalidates my claim, y'all should have been evaluating on it's own merits.

----------


## Rogan

Also, clarification:

I am a valid target for the lynch and most power usages.
However, I am not willing to tell you what will happen in this case, unless you have a power to investigate this.

----------


## Persolus

> So for example an Anarchist needing to kill the Judge (from corrupted), the Prince (from heroes) and the Mayor (from neutrals), without a care in the world about their own survival, is perfectly viable.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> The point being : instead of making assumptions that invalidates my claim, y'all should have been evaluating on it's own merits.


I did! and it makes a great deal of sense why you wouldn't reveal your role up until now. Does your role specify that this person knows who you are?

----------


## Cazero

> I did! and it makes a great deal of sense why you wouldn't reveal your role up until now. Does your role specify that this person knows who you are?


No.
It doesn't specify wether or not they actualy have a night kill either. I'm assuming the worst.

----------


## Persolus

> No.
> It doesn't specify wether or not they actualy have a night kill either. I'm assuming the worst.


In other words, you dying _in general_ is probably necessary for that person's win con. Who started the wagon on Cazero?

----------


## Cazero

Benoojian.
But I don't think it's him. There's legitimate reasons to sus me now.

----------


## Batcathat

> In other words, you dying _in general_ is probably necessary for that person's win con. Who started the wagon on Cazero?


I think it was AV, but I'm not sure. 

Regardless of Rogan's clarification, I'm leaning towards leaving my vote on Caz. At worst, we're lynching a neutral (who I find rather suspicious, even aside from the wincon) and I doubt giving the wolves another night to act will win them the game.

----------


## Persolus

> I think it was AV, but I'm not sure. 
> 
> Regardless of Rogan's clarification, I'm leaning towards leaving my vote on Caz. At worst, we're lynching a neutral (who I find rather suspicious, even aside from the wincon) and I doubt giving the wolves another night to act will win them the game.


AV asked Illven to ask the question, "Who is the mayor."

This was an odd question to ask at the time, and now we know that someone wants to kill said mayor... AV, anything to say?

----------


## Illven

Royal holiday is my suggestion.

----------


## Persolus

@Caz - what exactly did your role tell you about your killer?

- - - Updated - - -




> Royal holiday is my suggestion.


Either that or you, Illven - however it might be best to hold off on that until Ben is able to save you...?

----------


## Cazero

> @Caz - what exactly did your role tell you about your killer?


That they exist, want me dead, and that I need to outlive them.

----------


## Persolus

> That they exist, want me dead, and that I need to outlive them.


I see. No Role names or anything like that?

----------


## Cazero

Nothing of the sort, no.

- - - Updated - - -

You think my role description might include some misinformation?

----------


## Persolus

> Nothing of the sort, no.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> You think my role description might include some misinformation?


I think that knowing what Role your killer has might give us _more_ information - potentially on someone lying.

----------


## AvatarVecna

I don't need anybody dead other than Corrupted. I asked that question because I recalled much much earlier speculation that the mayor was untrustworthy (which I found compelling), and I thought asking "who is the mayor" would help find a corrupted without technically being an alignment-revealing question. Ultimately, though, I don't really care if Cazero is Mayor - I want Cazero dead, not the mayor.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

*3SecondCultist*

----------


## Cazero

Wich reminds me : can't survive an hypothetical night kill if I'm lynched first.
So, *Illven*.

----------


## Batcathat

Almost showtime. However the lynch turns out, I feel pretty good about our chances of winning the game. Of course, that gives me a bad feeling, since the last time I felt that cocky, I ended the day dead with the wolves victorious.  :Small Eek:

----------


## Rogan

Day 3 end now.

Please stand by for resolution.

----------


## Persolus

> Almost showtime. However the lynch turns out, *I feel pretty good about our chances of winning the game*. Of course, that gives me a bad feeling, since the last time I felt that cocky, I ended the day dead with the wolves victorious. 
> <emphasis added>


I like how that phrase is true so long as you're not a Neutral.

----------


## AvatarVecna

Like, I really don't know what to tell you. There's probably just one corrupted left, with Rogan's alignment maybe hiding which group of claimants they're in. Gee, who do we need to test with murder today?

AV, Kraken, Flat, and Illven can potentially give us information tomorrow. Meta, rakkoon, and Persolus are almost certainly neutral. Snowblaze might just be uncorrupted. That just leaves the cagey neutral claimant who has deliberately sabotaged the solving process to save their own skin and only came clean when they started getting fitted for a noose.

----------


## Rogan

*Spoiler: Mech*
Show

*Spoiler: Vote History*
Show

3SecondCultist votes Batcathat (1) 
Benoojian votes Metastachydium (1) 
3SecondCultist votes Snowblaze (1) unvotes Batcathat (0)
Batcathat votes 3SecondCultist (1) 
3SecondCultist unvotes Snowblaze (0)
Caedorus votes Illven (1) 
3SecondCultist votes Let'sGetKraken (1) 
Snowblaze votes Let'sGetKraken (2) 
Allando votes Metastachydium (2) 
Metastachydium votes Let'sGetKraken (3) 
Benoojian votes flat_footed (1) unvotes Metastachydium (1)
Benoojian votes Persolus (1) unvotes flat_footed (0)
Illven votes Persolus (2) 
AvatarVecna votes Persolus (3) 
Metastachydium votes Persolus (4) unvotes Let'sGetKraken (2)
Batcathat votes Persolus (5) unvotes 3SecondCultist (0)
Snowblaze unvotes Let'sGetKraken (1)
3SecondCultist votes flat_footed (1) unvotes Let'sGetKraken (0)
Benoojian votes flat_footed (2) unvotes Persolus (4)
Persolus votes Illven (2) 
Metastachydium unvotes Persolus (3)
AvatarVecna votes Cazero (1) unvotes Persolus (2)
Benoojian votes Rogan (1) unvotes flat_footed (1)
Illven votes Rogan (2) unvotes Persolus (1)
AvatarVecna votes Rogan (3) unvotes Cazero (0)
Benoojian unvotes Rogan (2)
Benoojian votes Cazero (1) 
Illven votes Cazero (2) unvotes Rogan (1)
AvatarVecna votes Cazero (3) unvotes Rogan (0)
Snowblaze votes Cazero (4) 
Batcathat votes Cazero (5) unvotes Persolus (0)
Cazero votes Persolus (1) 
Rakkoon votes Persolus (2) 
Caedorus votes Let'sGetKraken (1) unvotes Illven (1)
Allando votes Illven (2) unvotes Metastachydium (0)
3SecondCultist votes Illven (3) unvotes flat_footed (0)
Metastachydium votes Cazero (6) 
Let'sGetKraken votes 3SecondCultist (1) 
Cazero votes Illven (4) unvotes Persolus (1)


*Spoiler: Vote Count*
Show

Cazero: 6 (AvatarVecna, Batcathat, Benoojian, Illven, Metastachydium, Snowblaze)
Illven: 4 (3SecondCultist, Allando, Cazero, Persolus)
Let'sGetKraken: 1 (Caedorus)
Persolus: 1 (Rakkoon)
3SecondCultist: 1 (Let'sGetKraken)



Taking into account all vote manipulations used, this is the final result:

*Illven*: 6
Cazero: 5
Let'sGetKraken: 1

*Spoiler: Illven*
Show

The Sage
You are the Sage, tempted. You win when the town is save again, unless you become corrupted.
You have always been fascinated by stories of good and evil and you have amassed a treasure of knowledge about them. You will intuitively manage to figure out the grain of truth hidden in such stories. But be careful, as some things may corrupt!
Secret Knowledge: Each night, you may ask the narrator two questions about the mechanics of the game. You will receive an answer of yes or no. If such an answer would be misleading, you might receive a small hint about this. You may not ask about the alignment of players. (Example questions: Is there a fool in the game? No!; Is this a cult game? No, but)
Common Knowledge: Each night, you may send the narrator a short text, which will be published as a message from the sage. You can write whatever you like, but I wont confirm any information included.
Corrupting Knowledge: If you use your Secret Knowledge power three times, you will get corrupted.

Creator of Civilisation (Boon): At the end of each phase you gain one point to spend on one of the following options:
Military Might: For every three points spent on this, you can survive one death
World Wonder: After spending seven points on this, you finish a world wonder and win the game, even if you would normally not do so. The game won't end and you may choose to continue playing.
Secret Science: For every four points spent on this, you may ask me a question about one mechanical aspect of the game and you will receive an answer. (Some questions might break the game or be problematic for other reasons. You may ask me for free if any question you would like to get answered is valid or not, but please don't abuse this)

They are not dead... yet.



"Let's kill the Mayor! What did he ever do to help us? It's chaos, he clearly lost control!"
"Oh, you think you could do a better job?"
"Of course!"
"Hey, did you hear this? He threatened to kill me! That's not allowed, is it?"

After some more infighting, where someone pointing at an unassuming man, standing at the sidelines without ever casting a vote and forgotten by most, a scribe announced the decision.

"We are going to execute Illven! She admitted she was tempted by the devil, we better kill her before she can't resist anymore!"

After these words were said, the Executioner steps forward. "Please, Milady, don't make this harder on us"
"You will get a statue! You have my word!" shouts one of the remaining heroes.

The rest of them stand in shocked silence, before they scatter for the night.

Start of night 3. It will end in approximately 23:30 hours.

----------


## Batcathat

Alright, that didn't quite go as expected. But I suppose it could've been worse, hopefully Illven eventually dies a hero and the numbers are confirmed.

Kraken's vote counted, so assuming he's honest that should confirm Cultist, right?

Presumably Caz's boon knocked one vote off him, but there's clearly more vote manipulation than that.

----------


## Benoojian

Well that gains us... not much. Just murdering a townie that couldn't have converted yet. I hope we gain some clarity on the Narrator tonight.

----------


## Batcathat

No, wait, was Caz the one to claim vote protection or was that Persolus? I'm getting mixed up.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

Well, that sucks. If Cultist was not probably cleared by my vote not showing up on them, I would had suspected them of intentionally throwing this vote. Unless they have their own vote reduction thing built in. 

This isn't the worst outcome, but now we don't get Illven's questions tonight. Which is... not good.

----------


## Benoojian

> Alright, that didn't quite go as expected. But I suppose it could've been worse, hopefully Illven eventually dies a hero and the numbers are confirmed.
> 
> Kraken's vote counted, so assuming he's honest that should confirm Cultist, right?
> 
> Presumably Caz's boon knocked one vote off him, but there's clearly more vote manipulation than that.


Kraken's vote did NOT count on 3SC

----------


## Batcathat

> Well that gains us... not much. Just murdering a townie that couldn't have converted yet. I hope we gain some clarity on the Narrator tonight.


Oh, you're right, the corruption couldn't have happened yet. So that's already confirmed.




> Kraken's vote did NOT count on 3SC


Aaaand you're right again. Man, I'm too tired to properly analyze right now. I should really wait until tomorrow.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Benoojian

> No, wait, was Caz the one to claim vote protection or was that Persolus? I'm getting mixed up.


Persolus claim D1 lynch protection, Caz claimed vote manipulation but refused to disclose the details.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Alright, that didn't quite go as expected. But I suppose it could've been worse, hopefully Illven eventually dies a hero and the numbers are confirmed.
> 
> Kraken's vote counted, so assuming he's honest that should confirm Cultist, right?
> 
> Presumably Caz's boon knocked one vote off him, but there's clearly more vote manipulation than that.


My vote didn't count, unless I am misreading things. Which would theoretically clear Cultist. 




> Well that gains us... not much. Just murdering a townie that couldn't have converted yet. I hope we gain some clarity on the Narrator tonight.


Well, no. Because Illven can use their power, but won't get the answers in time to share them. We have lost this opportunity, barring shenanigans.

----------


## Batcathat

> My vote didn't count, unless I am misreading things. Which would theoretically clear Cultist.


Yeah, my tired brain reached the correct conclusion through some incorrect path.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## AvatarVecna



----------


## Benoojian

Illven says knife Cazero and protect Vecna.

The least I can do is pass on their last words.

----------


## Cazero

> Persolus claim D1 lynch protection, Caz claimed vote manipulation but refused to disclose the details.


Like you would have let me pull that off if I disclosed the details.

- - - Updated - - -

Ho, and knifing me? By all means. *Come at me. I dare you.*

----------


## Benoojian

> Like you would have let me pull that off if I disclosed the details.


I can't believe we let you pull that off anyway...
You need to die for your crimes regardless of alignment.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Like you would have let me pull that off if I disclosed the details.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Ho, and knifing me? By all means. *Come at me. I dare you.*


Making it my in-game mission to cause you to lose.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Like you would have let me pull that off if I disclosed the details.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Ho, and knifing me? By all means. *Come at me. I dare you.*


I mean we're either letting the Anarchist get you (and hoping they townside, if they exist - side note I could see it being AV being cheeky) or just voting you out tomorrow unless you play really, really nice. So I would very much consider whether you want to see D5 in determining what you do tonight.

----------


## Benoojian

Would the Neutral with the goal to kill Cazero like to reveal so we can congratulate you? Because I for one am voting to lynch Cazero tomorrow even if the Narrator comes back as confirmed Corrupted.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> I mean we're either letting the Anarchist get you (and hoping they townside, if they exist - side note I could see it being AV being cheeky) or just voting you out tomorrow unless you play really, really nice. So I would very much consider whether you want to see D5 in determining what you do tonight.


Unless our night info proves beyond a doubt the wolf is someone else, he just needs to hang.

- - - Updated - - -




> Would the Neutral with the goal to kill Cazero like to reveal so we can congratulate you? Because I for one am voting to lynch Cazero tomorrow even if the Narrator comes back as confirmed Corrupted.


Seconded tbh

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, and 3SC is confirmed clear.

----------


## Benoojian

> Unless our night info proves beyond a doubt the wolf is someone else, he just needs to hang.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> 
> Seconded tbh


If someone other than Narrator is confirmed wolf, I may reconsider, but I am generally willing to throw away a night in this game to punish an Anti-Town neutral. It does give the other neutrals more chances to wincon, since gathering a number of points was implied by a couple.

----------


## Cazero

Well excuuuuse me, princess, but if town wants me to hang when my wincon hinges on me surviving, I'm certainly going to fight back.

----------


## Batcathat

Assuming Caz isn't in fact the last wolf, who would the second likeliest candidate be? I feel like flat might be reasonable, or does anyone have any (preferably mechanical) reason to trust him? Feel free to not answer this until morning.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Well excuuuuse me, princess, but if town wants me to hang when my wincon hinges on me surviving, I'm certainly going to fight back.


If your wincon hinges on survival, maybe next time you should do literally anything to make people want you alive.

- - - Updated - - -




> Illven says knife Cazero and protect Vecna.
> 
> The least I can do is pass on their last words.


You have a private chat with Illven right now, yeah? Are you able to ferry messages between there and here?

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

Counterpoint - Cazero cooperates fully from now on, and maybe gets to live? I would certainly prefer that as an outcome. But yeah if he NK's anyone tonight he gets lynched with my full support. Remember, my vote counts for non-town :)

At least the one silver lining is that we know Illven's numbers are trustworthy.

- - - Updated - - -

But yeah Cazero your chances of winning/surviving dramatically increase if you fully claim now and work with town. Otherwise as an obstructionist we basically do have to hang you tomorrow. 

You can't be faulted for defending yourself, but you absolutely can be faulted with the generally untrustworthy things that got you into this position, and any anti-town actions you take now.

----------


## Benoojian

"Tell vecna moldy dino sucks."

----------


## 3SecondCultist

_The Prince sighed as he drew his sword. A ceremonial thing, it had not seen combat in many years. The one brother he had wait at the end of the hall while he beckoned the second forward.

Kneel, and rise a Knight.

As the Gossip got to his feet, the de jure ruler of Barlow strode to the high glass window. From it, he could see the entirety of the town.

You have done well. Our ordeal is nearly done. There are just a few lies left to untangle, but I intend to leave that to our friends. I have done all I can for now. Best of luck, my friends.

Now, where did that bottle of red get to?_

----------


## AvatarVecna

> "Tell vecna moldy dino sucks."


lmao okay.

----------


## Caedorus

Can confirm now have the most op powerset eeever to enter a balanced game.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> Can confirm now have the most op powerset eeever to enter a balanced game.


Yeah, the Prince is a really powerful role. Not quite as strong as Beyond the Impossible from Utropia, but its close.

----------


## AvatarVecna

Scumteam is basically done at this point. This informs neutral wincons - wolfsiding isn't really an option.

Rakkoon and Persolus can't both be evil. If rakkoon was evil, the "two neutrals with better wincons" thing was a lie because he couldn't know that. Then, when meta and cazero (both real neutrals in a corrupt!rakkoon world) didn't call him out on it or claim it themselves, Persolus knows it's BS, and can call him out for easy towncred. Instead he corroborates the story. Similarly, if rakkoon made it up as a trap for wolves claiming neutral, he would've outed Persolus for easy towncred. They're probably just both telling the truth.

If Snow was successfully corrupted, Illven's question would've returned a result of "2 corrupted". I've confirmed with Rogan that's how the tempted alignments are handled, because it's relevant to my power. So Snow is (or at least was, earlier today) uncorrupted.

There's only one corrupted right now. If that's Kraken, 3SC can't be corrupted. If that's 3SC, Kraken's vote would've counted. It's possible that a neutral or 3SC used vote manipulation to fake that result on 3SC's behalf, but Kraken had at least four townies that aren't mechanically cleared to check, and was adamant they weren't announcing it ahead of time specifically to head off any counter-vote-manipulation (and if they'd guessed wrong on who got targeted, the extra vote manipulation would reveal 3SC a liar). Thus, regardless of Kraken's alignment, 3SC is almost certainly town. BCH is apparently narrator-confirmed town to multiple people in the towncore. The towncore consists of the mason brothers and Ben the executioner. 

That leaves AvatarVecna, Cazero, flat_footed, Let'sGetKraken, and Rogan as our remaining suspects. I already know I'm a Hero, but I know I'm not exactly mechanically confirmed for y'all, but that barely matters at this point. The pool of suspects is just too small.

EDIT: If I'm 100% fair, it's possible Rogan is Tempted alignment, and that would mean Snow was corrupted. Kinda iffy on that, though. I will say, a good deal of my suspicion just stems from the fact that I think Narrator tends to be a neutral role if it has any mechanical impact, and that makes me look for the least-credible neutral claimant.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Scumteam is basically done at this point. This informs neutral wincons - wolfsiding isn't really an option.
> 
> Rakkoon and Persolus can't both be evil. If rakkoon was evil, the "two neutrals with better wincons" thing was a lie because he couldn't know that. Then, when meta and cazero (both real neutrals in a corrupt!rakkoon world) didn't call him out on it or claim it themselves, Persolus knows it's BS, and can call him out for easy towncred. Instead he corroborates the story. Similarly, if rakkoon made it up as a trap for wolves claiming neutral, he would've outed Persolus for easy towncred. They're probably just both telling the truth.
> 
> If Snow was successfully corrupted, Illven's question would've returned a result of "2 corrupted". I've confirmed with Rogan that's how the tempted alignments are handled, because it's relevant to my power. So Snow is (or at least was, earlier today) uncorrupted.
> 
> There's only one corrupted right now. If that's Kraken, 3SC can't be corrupted. If that's 3SC, Kraken's vote would've counted. It's possible that a neutral or 3SC used vote manipulation to fake that result on 3SC's behalf, but Kraken had at least four townies that aren't mechanically cleared to check, and was adamant they weren't announcing it ahead of time specifically to head off any counter-vote-manipulation (and if they'd guessed wrong on who got targeted, the extra vote manipulation would reveal 3SC a liar). Thus, regardless of Kraken's alignment, 3SC is almost certainly town. BCH is apparently narrator-confirmed town to multiple people in the towncore. The towncore consists of the mason brothers and Ben the executioner. 
> 
> That leaves AvatarVecna, Cazero, flat_footed, Let'sGetKraken, and Rogan as our remaining suspects. I already know I'm a Hero, but I know I'm not exactly mechanically confirmed for y'all, but that barely matters at this point. The pool of suspects is just too small.
> ...


I would actually buy Snow as Corrupted, honestly. Narrator as Tempted would be super flavourful.

----------


## Benoojian

> There's only one corrupted right now. If that's Kraken, 3SC can't be corrupted. If that's 3SC, Kraken's vote would've counted. It's possible that a neutral or 3SC used vote manipulation to fake that result on 3SC's behalf, but Kraken had at least four townies that aren't mechanically cleared to check, and was adamant they weren't announcing it ahead of time specifically to head off any counter-vote-manipulation (and if they'd guessed wrong on who got targeted, the extra vote manipulation would reveal 3SC a liar). Thus, regardless of Kraken's alignment, 3SC is almost certainly town. BCH is apparently narrator-confirmed town to multiple people in the towncore. The towncore consists of the mason brothers and Ben the executioner. 
> 
> That leaves AvatarVecna, Cazero, flat_footed, Let'sGetKraken, and Rogan as our remaining suspects. I already know I'm a Hero, but I know I'm not exactly mechanically confirmed for y'all, but that barely matters at this point. The pool of suspects is just too small.


Checking 3SC gives Kraken some towncred, unless they were the one that swapped the vote
But we don't know if the vote swap was Kraken, 3SC, Cazero, or an unknown party.
If 3SC swapped the vote because he's Corrupted, that 100% doesn't clear him. Unlikely, but a fantastic wolf play this whole game if true.

Would we, as a town, be willing to grant clemency to Cazero to get the exact details of his vote manipulation power, so we know if we're looking for another one?

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Checking 3SC gives Kraken some towncred, unless they were the one that swapped the vote
> But we don't know if the vote swap was Kraken, 3SC, Cazero, or an unknown party.
> If 3SC swapped the vote because he's Corrupted, that 100% doesn't clear him. Unlikely, but a fantastic wolf play this whole game if true.
> 
> Would we, as a town, be willing to grant clemency to Cazero to get the exact details of his vote manipulation power, so we know if we're looking for another one?


I wouldn't be willing to offer him anything for answers, because we can't trust any answers he gives. He's already demonstrated himself an anti-town liar. Any answer he gives is going to be geared towards getting us to waste time on something else so he lives longer and gets his wincon. If we assume he's lying, he'll give truthful answers so that we doubt him and waste time on something else so he lives longer and gets his wincon. Any attempt to negotiate for honest answers like that is agreeing to a poisoned wine game of wits, and frankly we have a much better way of figuring out how his powers work - it's called a noose. It worked fantastic for figuring out how Xihirli's power worked.

----------


## Benoojian

Vecna, Illven requests that you view Snow and Illven, to clear or condemn Snow.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Vecna, Illven requests that you view Snow and Illven, to clear or condemn Snow.


I'll take that request into consideration.

----------


## Benoojian

> I'll take that request into consideration.


Yeah, I'm not sure I agree with it being the most useful use of your power, but Illven is right that tonight is the last time your power can hard clear Snow, because Illven will be dead and you won't have another known Tempted to compare with.

----------


## Cazero

> If your wincon hinges on survival, maybe next time you should do literally anything to make people want you alive.


What more could I have done?
Hoo, hoo, I could try sharing info I don't have ! Or making up a fringe theory based on nothing ! Then maybe one of you would have dismissed me before not changing their vote !



> I wouldn't be willing to offer him anything for answers, because we can't trust any answers he gives.


Yes, like that !

----------


## Snowblaze

I have no objections to being scried if AV wants to, but I doubt it's a good idea. Since theoretically I could be scried as Tempted but then you have no way (beyond my word and my claim) of knowing I haven't later been Corrupted.

Best way to deal with me imo is just leave me alone until everyone else alive is mechanically clear (which won't happen) and then kill me for being the only remaining possible wolf.

Actually let me check something.

- - - Updated - - -

And yeah, Cazero probably just needs to die unless we can obtain mechanical proof otherwise. Sorry, but we have an extremely small POE and you're the one who lied about your powers, is refusing to claim them now, and could easily just be Corrupted.

----------


## Batcathat

> I have no objections to being scried if AV wants to, but I doubt it's a good idea. Since theoretically I could be scried as Tempted but then you have no way (beyond my word and my claim) of knowing I haven't later been Corrupted.


That depends on whether or not you'd show up as tempted or corrupted after having fallen. *@Rogan:* Could you clarify whether or not a corrupted tempted would scry as tempted or corrupted?

That said, I agree that there are probably better targets to try and check out. If Snow is the final wolf, I doubt she'll win before everyone more suspicious is ruled out one way or the other.

----------


## Caedorus

> Yeah, the Prince is a really powerful role. Not quite as strong as Beyond the Impossible from Utropia, but its close.


...After the game, please elaborate on this stupidly op role, keeping in mind I kept my own power.



> Scumteam is basically done at this point. This informs neutral wincons - wolfsiding isn't really an option.
> 
> Rakkoon and Persolus can't both be evil. If rakkoon was evil, the "two neutrals with better wincons" thing was a lie because he couldn't know that. Then, when meta and cazero (both real neutrals in a corrupt!rakkoon world) didn't call him out on it or claim it themselves, Persolus knows it's BS, and can call him out for easy towncred. Instead he corroborates the story. Similarly, if rakkoon made it up as a trap for wolves claiming neutral, he would've outed Persolus for easy towncred. They're probably just both telling the truth.
> 
> If Snow was successfully corrupted, Illven's question would've returned a result of "2 corrupted". I've confirmed with Rogan that's how the tempted alignments are handled, because it's relevant to my power. So Snow is (or at least was, earlier today) uncorrupted.
> 
> There's only one corrupted right now. If that's Kraken, 3SC can't be corrupted. If that's 3SC, Kraken's vote would've counted. It's possible that a neutral or 3SC used vote manipulation to fake that result on 3SC's behalf, but Kraken had at least four townies that aren't mechanically cleared to check, and was adamant they weren't announcing it ahead of time specifically to head off any counter-vote-manipulation (and if they'd guessed wrong on who got targeted, the extra vote manipulation would reveal 3SC a liar). Thus, regardless of Kraken's alignment, 3SC is almost certainly town. BCH is apparently narrator-confirmed town to multiple people in the towncore. The towncore consists of the mason brothers and Ben the executioner. 
> 
> That leaves AvatarVecna, Cazero, flat_footed, Let'sGetKraken, and Rogan as our remaining suspects. I already know I'm a Hero, but I know I'm not exactly mechanically confirmed for y'all, but that barely matters at this point. The pool of suspects is just too small.
> ...


Better idea: Illven and Rogan. Let's see what sticks: if he isn't tempted, he's probs neutral and to be eyed. If he is, he's still townsided and NOT a lynch option as I buy the "corrupt if you would get voted" thing.



> I have no objections to being scried if AV wants to, but I doubt it's a good idea. Since theoretically I could be scried as Tempted but then you have no way (beyond my word and my claim) of knowing I haven't later been Corrupted.
> 
> Best way to deal with me imo is just leave me alone until everyone else alive is mechanically clear (which won't happen) and then kill me for being the only remaining possible wolf.
> 
> Actually let me check something.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> And yeah, Cazero probably just needs to die unless we can obtain mechanical proof otherwise. Sorry, but we have an extremely small POE and you're the one who lied about your powers, is refusing to claim them now, and could easily just be Corrupted.


Yeah, I'd just kill Caz for the info.

- - - Updated - - -

Hum, I could actually *do* that. Do we want to vig Caz?

----------


## Batcathat

> Hum, I could actually *do* that. Do we want to vig Caz?


Yeah, I think so. If Caz is still alive and not mechanically cleared by tomorrow, we'll almost certainly end up lynching him anyway. Checking him non-lethally one way or the other might be an option, but I think I'd rather save that for those lower on the suspect list, especially since with Caz we're at worst losing a neutral, while some other suspects (like flat) are possibly town.

I was about to say that maybe you shouldn't mention openly who you're going to target, since that'd mean the wolves find out (well, wolf, but I'm so used to talking about them in plural) but since there's only one wolf, they are presumably already using any defensive powers they might have, so it probably doesn't matter much.

----------


## Allando

> 


Woohoo the memes return!

I think Caedorus shooting Cazero could work. 
However, I'd sort of feel bad if Cazero is actually a neutral needing to survive an amount of time. Then again, this is the perfect excuse for a wolf, so... 

I remember reading something about people wanting me to fullclaim, is that still a thing BC I'd rather not at night.

Also, does anyone know what the bastard mechanic is?

----------


## Persolus

> Also, does anyone know what the bastard mechanic is?


If we did, then it wouldn't exactly _be_ that type of mechanic, now, would it?

----------


## Benoojian

> Also, does anyone know what the bastard mechanic is?


Everyone's win cons are reversed. Town wins by exterminating all town members, Wolves win by having all wolves die./s

----------


## Caedorus

> I mean we're either letting the Anarchist get you (and hoping they townside, if they exist - side note I could see it being AV being cheeky) or just voting you out tomorrow unless you play really, really nice. So I would very much consider whether you want to see D5 in determining what you do tonight.


Heeeyy, how do you know the role is called the Anarchist? What did you claim as again, Kraken?

----------


## Benoojian

> Heeeyy, how do you know the role is called the Anarchist? What did you claim as again, Kraken?


Cazero suggested the name Anarchist first

----------


## Caedorus

Ohh.

https://tenor.com/view/i-feel-like-i...w-gif-26547185

- - - Updated - - -

Yess, can now compete with av.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Heeeyy, how do you know the role is called the Anarchist? What did you claim as again, Kraken?


Yeah I am referencing something Cazero mentioned. I am the Lookout (which is really mechanically closer to a doctor in how it functions but take that up with Rogan).

----------


## AvatarVecna

I have two scry plans currently, neither of which has been suggested so far.

- - - Updated - - -

Meta, are you willing to tell me who you're following tonight? Might inform my decision.

----------


## Metastachydium

> I have two scry plans currently, neither of which has been suggested so far.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Meta, are you willing to tell me who you're following tonight? Might inform my decision.


I'm not yet sure. All I know is that it's not going to be Snow or Cazero if I can help it. I'm open to suggestions.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> I'm not yet sure. All I know is that it's not going to be Snow or Cazero if I can help it. I'm open to suggestions.


Those would've been my suggestions, but I can certainly see how that's more to my benefit than yours.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Those would've been my suggestions, but I can certainly see how that's more to my benefit than yours.


I can take one for the team, if need be. It just happens to carry a small risk that I'll be screwed over by dogs.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> I can take one for the team, if need be. It just happens to carry a small risk that I'll be screwed over by dogs.


Yeah, I feel you. I don't think it's necessary though. There are situations where taking advantage of your ability would effectively give me more information, but if it's not a very specific situation, scrying you+2 others is no better than just scrying the two others on their own and leaving you to your own devices. I've got a backup plan that should work just fine.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Yeah, I feel you. I don't think it's necessary though. There are situations where taking advantage of your ability would effectively give me more information, but if it's not a very specific situation, scrying you+2 others is no better than just scrying the two others on their own and leaving you to your own devices. I've got a backup plan that should work just fine.


Hm. Could checking the Neutral claimants other than Caz against me help? (And do we need anyone other than Caz scried?)

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Hm. Could checking the Neutral claimants other than Caz against me help? (And do we need anyone other than Caz scried?)


Provided that people trust that I'm town, if I scried you+rakkoon+Persolus, that would be helpful _if_ one of you is lying corrupted. If it returns "one alignment", though, that clears y'all...but I'm kinda already assuming y'all are clear? So it probably doesn't narrow things down for us.

EDIT: Like...if you were willing to make a connection with Persolus, I could target you and Caz, and that would get you/Caz/Pers scried. Maybe that returns one alignment, maybe it returns two alignments, in which case one of you three is lying scum (gee I wonder who).

----------


## Metastachydium

Hm. But what if I targeted one of Rakkoon and Persolus and you compared us against Cazero?

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Hm. But what if I targeted one of Rakkoon and Persolus and you compared us against Cazero?


It either clears one major suspect and two minor suspects (if it returns one alignment), or it confirms that one of the three of you is lying scum. It's potentially useful, but it's way more useful if folks actually suspect the non-Caz neutrals.

----------


## Batcathat

> Provided that people trust that I'm town, if I scried you+rakkoon+Persolus, that would be helpful _if_ one of you is lying corrupted. If it returns "one alignment", though, that clears y'all...but I'm kinda already assuming y'all are clear? So it probably doesn't narrow things down for us.


Yeah, about that. I have mechanical confirmation that AV isn't a wolf (neutral is technically possible, though). That's not something I would normally just randomly reveal (especially at night), but I wanted to avoid anyone wasting any potential info gathering powers or for me to die and town to go into a paranoid "Hey, why isn't AV dead yet?" spin. 

While I'm also leaning towards those three being clear, that scry might be useful, especially if combined with Caz (or flat) getting successfully NK'd. It should cover every eventuality but long shots like a corrupted Snow or Rogan.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, I guess Kraken might still be a uncleared suspect in that scenario, but that's also something of a long shot, I think.

----------


## AvatarVecna

My current consideration is flat/kraken. That eliminates at least two people from PoI regardless of which result I get.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Yeah, about that. I have mechanical confirmation that AV isn't a wolf (neutral is technically possible, though). That's not something I would normally just randomly reveal (especially at night), but I wanted to avoid anyone wasting any potential info gathering powers or for me to die and town to go into a paranoid "Hey, why isn't AV dead yet?" spin. 
> 
> While I'm also leaning towards those three being clear, that scry might be useful, especially if combined with Caz (or flat) getting successfully NK'd. It should cover every eventuality but long shots like a corrupted Snow or Rogan.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Well, I guess Kraken might still be a uncleared suspect in that scenario, but that's also something of a long shot, I think.


It's possible AV has the "kill one specific person of each alignment" win condition as a neutral that Cazero was probably lying about, for sure, but even if that's the case she's still townsiding by the looks of things and doesn't deserve suspicion. So long as she is mechanically not a wolf it's not worth investigating her. 

Consequently, she should definitely be protected tonight if she is able to clear OR narrow it down. Normally I wouldn't reveal that targeting suggestion, but I legitimately don't think it matters here so long as AV survives. Either the wolves gamble on killing AV and waste it, thinking that I'm bluffing here, or they kill someone else and we clear at least one living town member, possible two.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> My current consideration is flat/kraken. That eliminates at least two people from PoI regardless of which result I get.


I was just about to sign on to post that flat and Kraken should absolutely be scry targets tonight, if possible. We want to make tomorrows PoE as small as possible.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> It's possible AV has the "kill one specific person of each alignment" win condition as a neutral that Cazero was probably lying about, for sure, but even if that's the case she's still townsiding by the looks of things and doesn't deserve suspicion. So long as she is mechanically not a wolf it's not worth investigating her. 
> 
> Consequently, she should definitely be protected tonight if she is able to clear OR narrow it down. Normally I wouldn't reveal that targeting suggestion, but I legitimately don't think it matters here so long as AV survives. Either the wolves gamble on killing AV and waste it, thinking that I'm bluffing here, or they kill someone else and we clear at least one living town member, possible two.


Also worth mentioning: with tempted in short supply to begin with, and capable of changing alignment, it would be in my best interest to kill one ASAP.  If that were the case I would've fought tooth and nail for getting illven lynched yesterday under the guise of checking her questions for honesty.

----------


## Benoojian

Illven would like to add that technically the town win condition is "when the town is safe again" so there is a chance we have to kill Neutrals with kill powers as well, which was Cazero's original claim.

----------


## Batcathat

> Illven would like to add that technically the town win condition is "when the town is safe again" so there is a chance we have to kill Neutrals with kill powers as well, which was Cazero's original claim.


I don't think that's very likely, but it's worth keeping in mind in case we kill all the corrupted and the game isn't over. We'll put it next to "Rogan is actually the Devil and we need to defeat him" in the idea pile.  :Small Amused:

----------


## Benoojian

If the bastard twist is that one of the like 60 unnamed NPCs is Corrupted and needs to be killed, I'm going to be so pissed.

----------


## Metastachydium

Does any of us even _have_ tools for killing NPCs? I mean, one narration, I think, included NPCs killing NPCs.

----------


## Batcathat

It _would_ be kinda funny if the tale of the brave heroes fighting evil ended with the heroes starting to randomly massacre the townspeople.

----------


## Rogan

End of night 3
Please wait for narrative and resolution.

- - - Updated - - -

Again, some townspeople moved out to find evidence on Illven. They found many books and notes. One of them reads:



> "It is common knowledge that Alexandria von Dragonstongue nee Illven deserves a statue for her sacrifice"


Every other note turned out to be about fighting evil, not joining them. Seems like, they managed to resist the temptation which some knowledge entails. 

Still, the townspeople didn't manage to safe the wise woman. She received a swift and painless death from the skilled executioner.
You've got to wonder why they didn't check for evidence * before* calling the executioner...

---
Many villagers instinctively knew there was something wrong that morning, but it took surprisingly long for someone to figure out what: the usual smell of freshly baked bread that had always accompanied the dawn was missing. Soon after, the baker was discovered face-down in a batch of dough, and when a neighbour ran out to tell the miller, who had been the baker's sister-in-law, she was found dead as well, crucified on the sails of her own windmill.
*Spoiler: OOC*
Show

 This NPC death scene was written by Taffi, many thanks for this.


One other person died as well. Flat_footed was turned into a target for his own mighty bow. He received arrows to the arms and the legs, some arrows missed him. The last one hit him right into his left eye. A note was bound to the shaft. "JeenLeen sends his regards!"

Meanwhile, on the town square, a dozen pieces of paper are shattered. They all read



> *THE TRAITOR MUST HANG*


*Spoiler: Mech*
Show

*Spoiler: flat_footed*
Show

The Hunter
You are the Hunter, hero. You win when the town is save again.
Usually, you would spend your time in the woods, hunting game to stock up the food supplies. But in this time of danger, you use your abilities to hunt a much more dangerous target: humans.
Tracking: Each night, you can target one living player. You follow their tracks and will learn who got targeted by them.
Bow & Arrow: Twice per game, you can shoot them instead, in order to kill them.

Modly Power (Boon): Three times per game, when you post a sentence / paragraph in orange text containing the names of two living players, you will invoke the power of being a mod and everybody better listens. The first player named will be compelled to target the second player. During daytime, this will change their vote. At nighttime, they will use their power on them, as long as they used a targeted power.

They have died

*Spoiler: Illven*
Show

 They died a hero

"An unmet player has built the great library."
"Illven has disconnected."
(Or, in my own words: They have died)


Day 4 starts. It will end in a bit more than 23 hours.

----------


## AvatarVecna

*sips tea*

----------


## 3SecondCultist

Sooooo... Let'sGetKraken or Cazero?

----------


## Batcathat

> Sooooo... Let'sGetKraken or Cazero?


I'm leaning towards the later, but I suppose I can wait and see if someone has any new information to share on the matter.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

Also, did flat kill himself to mech-clear and eliminate himself from PoE to help town? Because that would be hilarious and I think it's kind of what the narrative is implying.

- - - Updated - - -

That or he was just NK'd. Curious if any kills were blocked.

----------


## Batcathat

> Also, did flat kill himself to mech-clear and eliminate himself from PoE to help town? Because that would be hilarious and I think it's kind of what the narrative is implying.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> That or he was just NK'd. Curious if any kills were blocked.


The "JeenLeen sends his regards!" part seems to imply it was the wolves, wouldn't it?

- - - Updated - - -

That said, the wolves killing one of the few remaining reasonable suspects seems like an odd move at best (of course, that's just the latest in the line of strange kill choices this game).

----------


## Persolus

...well, in this case, I'm very sorry Illven - it seems you were being honest after all.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

Oh, duh. Flat used his power to retarget the NK to himself from someone else, thereby mech-clearing for town and shrinking the suspect pool.

----------


## Cazero

> Oh, duh. Flat used his power to retarget the NK to himself from someone else, thereby mech-clearing for town and shrinking the suspect pool.


Without telling us who the wolf is in passing? Cause he would have needed to guess that.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

Assuming I'm right, then flat you have our thanks. 

As the Prince of this town, I will commission a statue of equal size to Illven's in your honour!  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Persolus

> Oh, duh. Flat used his power to retarget the NK to himself from someone else, thereby mech-clearing for town and shrinking the suspect pool.


...did he use orange text in D2, though?

----------


## Cazero

Also he didn't post names in orange.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> Without telling us who the wolf is in passing? Cause he would have needed to guess that.


Could have been a lucky guess. There are only so many realistic suspects left.

----------


## Batcathat

> ...did he use orange text in D2, though?


I just did a quick check and couldn't find any, at least.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

If he uses his power at night (which we wouldn't see), it's a redirect. I think he can orange-name people at night-time too, or at least how I interpreted his ability.

----------


## Batcathat

> If he uses his power at night (which we wouldn't see), it's a redirect. I think he can orange-name people at night-time too, or at least how I interpreted his ability.


I think it would still have to be in the thread, wouldn't it?

----------


## AvatarVecna

Oooooo flat's roleplay color was orange, yeah? What a great way to hide his boon mechanic.

----------


## Rogan

Clarification:
No matter if day or night, the two names must be posted in public.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Oh, duh. Flat used his power to retarget the NK to himself from someone else, thereby mech-clearing for town and shrinking the suspect pool.


Would have needed to have done that in the thread in orange, and naming the person who he was targeting. This does seem like a very strange NK, though, given that Flat was a potential mis-lynch target?

Hopefully Caedorus/Meta can vouch for me, if AV didn't cleat me last night. I can confirm that no one tried to harm my target. 

Does anyone have a list of claimed Roles (not alignments)? I have... information. But I'm not sure if it's inconsistent.

----------


## Benoojian

Cazero was protected by someone other than Cazero

----------


## AvatarVecna

Fluff text implies flat targeted himself _and_ was targeted by the wolves. The former could be explained by him targeting Cazero, who has some kind of kill-reflecting boon (which is why they were so confident at the thought of being stabbed in the night). The latter could be explained by either corrupted!rogan randing the kill onto flat, or by flat figuring out who the wolf was and using his boon to force them to target him with the NK. That one doesn't require Cazero to be the last corrupted, though.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

Oh, hey, Flat flipping town also confirms me, right? Because he corroborated that I targeted Benoojian N2. And Benoojian is notable not dead by way of wolves.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Cazero was protected by someone other than Cazero


oooo spicy

----------


## Metastachydium

> Hopefully Caedorus/Meta can vouch for me, if AV didn't cleat me last night. I can confirm that no one tried to harm my target.


Well, the Lookout can protect. (This night went awry for me, otherwise.)

----------


## Persolus

> Cazero was protected by someone other than Cazero


I can verify this!

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Oh, hey, Flat flipping town also confirms me, right? Because he corroborated that I targeted Benoojian N2. And Benoojian is notable not dead by way of wolves.


I mean if we're gonna play devil's advocate, most people have an active power used at night, and fluff already said the N2 NK was on BW. flat saying he saw you target Ben N2 doesn't mean you're not a wolf, it just means you didn't target him with a kill power. And while I'm pretty sure the factional has to be carried by someone, it's possible (although improbable) that flat was watching you, but you assigned the NK to be carried out by Grand Arbiter or Xihirli seconds before she died. Purely hypothetical, mind you.

----------


## Benoojian

Did anyone get any info on Rogan?

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Well, the Lookout can protect. (This night went awry for me, otherwise.)


So, in summary:

-the Lookout can protect
-I have claimed Lookout and this has been uncontested. 
-Flat (confirmed town) has corroborated me targeted Benoojian N2, who is unharmed
-My vote on 3SecondCultist (also pretty close to confirmed town) was not counted, and flat did not mess with that. 

I think that whole picture clears me, yes? So can we take my name off the suspect list now please?

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Did anyone get any info on Rogan?


I did not.

----------


## Metastachydium

Lookout is a real role, at least.

----------


## Persolus

> Did anyone get any info on Rogan?


I did in fact!

----------


## Batcathat

> The latter could be explained by either corrupted!rogan randing the kill onto flat


In regards to this, I will _hopefully_ be able to find out by EoD whether or not Rogan needs to be defeated. I still don't think it's that likely, but due to the peculiar way my boon works, checking that out is more doable than, say, finding out about Caz.

So I suggest we focus on non-Rogan suspects today and save a potential Rogan lynch (or NK?) until later.

----------


## Allando

... huh, didn't Caedorus kill caz? what about that?
Did you not do that or did it not work? 
I'm... actually flabberghasted??

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> I mean if we're gonna play devil's advocate, most people have an active power used at night, and fluff already said the N2 NK was on BW. flat saying he saw you target Ben N2 doesn't mean you're not a wolf, it just means you didn't target him with a kill power. And while I'm pretty sure the factional has to be carried by someone, it's possible (although improbable) that flat was watching you, but you assigned the NK to be carried out by Grand Arbiter or Xihirli seconds before she died. Purely hypothetical, mind you.


It's technically possible, in the same way that it is technically possible that you're the last wolf. But like balance of probabilities here.

----------


## Caedorus

Targeted Kraken, got: The lookout can protect, but it will cost an action
This seems to verify their roleclaim if that was their roleclaim.
Also, @Meta I'll help you win if you want it's basically free. Will leave it up to them to reveal the details if they want to.
"Some power interaction gave you flats role, alignment and power." wtf can anyone explain why this happened to me

----------


## AvatarVecna

> ... huh, didn't Caedorus kill caz? what about that?
> Did you not do that or did it not work? 
> I'm... actually flabberghasted??


I think they mentioned turning down the power change?

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> I did in fact!


Alright Persolus, assuming you're a neutral - what's your victory condition? What's the price for collaborating with town here?

----------


## Caedorus

> ... huh, didn't Caedorus kill caz? what about that?
> Did you not do that or did it not work? 
> I'm... actually flabberghasted??


No, I scried Kraken instead bc I thought the whole bolded "Come at me, I dare you" was a boon

----------


## AvatarVecna

> It's technically possible, in the same way that it is technically possible that you're the last wolf. But like balance of probabilities here.


*nods along*

I was gonna hold off sharing, but if we're doing this at the start of the day, I'm gonna go ahead and add to the pile of "reasons Kraken is hero": I scried flat_footed and Kraken last night, and got one alignment between them. That would've confirmed Kraken trustworthy in my mind even if flat_footed didn't die in the night, because there's only one corrupted left.

- - - Updated - - -




> No, I scried Kraken instead bc I thought the whole bolded "Come at me, I dare you" was a boon


*squints suspiciously*

----------


## Benoojian

So does Cazero have a way to force someone to use a protective power on them, or does someone have a motive to keep him alive?

----------


## Cazero

> No, I scried Kraken instead bc I thought the whole bolded "Come at me, I dare you" was a boon


I'm glad I didn't type that for nothing.

----------


## AvatarVecna

Caedorus, let me get this straight: you were gifted a full-on "scry everything" ability, targeted Kraken, and got all of flat_footed's information?




> So does Cazero have a way to force someone to use a protective power on them, or does someone have a motive to keep him alive?


Very strange considering he seemed to think somebody had specific reason to want him dead.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Targeted Kraken, got: The lookout can protect, but it will cost an action
> This seems to verify their roleclaim if that was their roleclaim.
> Also, @Meta I'll help you win if you want it's basically free. Will leave it up to them to reveal the details if they want to.
> "Some power interaction gave you flats role, alignment and power." wtf can anyone explain why this happened to me





> No, I scried Kraken instead bc I thought the whole bolded "Come at me, I dare you" was a boon


I can confirm this. My post was a hint at receiving your result. As for Flat That was me. I tried to use a boon power to scry him.

----------


## Allando

> I can verify this!


Persooooluuuus?? Do you have a protecting power?



> So, in summary:
> 
> -the Lookout can protect
> -I have claimed Lookout and this has been uncontested. 
> -Flat (confirmed town) has corroborated me targeted Benoojian N2, who is unharmed
> -My vote on 3SecondCultist (also pretty close to confirmed town) was not counted, and flat did not mess with that. 
> 
> I think that whole picture clears me, yes? So can we take my name off the suspect list now please?


more... or... less?



> I did in fact!


Hm, wiling to share? 



> I think they mentioned turning down the power change?


...? Caedorus definitely became Knight as well.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Caedorus, let me get this straight: you were gifted a full-on "scry everything" ability, targeted Kraken, and got all of flat_footed's information?


_I_ targeted Flat. We just received each other's results.

----------


## Batcathat

So, if Kraken is confirmed, that means it has to be one of the supposed neutrals, right? (Or Rogan.) And I think all of them but Caz is confirmed on way or another, right?

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Persooooluuuus?? Do you have a protecting power?
> 
> more... or... less?
> 
> Hm, wiling to share? 
> 
> ...? Caedorus definitely became Knight as well.


I can confirm this. The info I got from Caedorus was "There are two Knights".

----------


## AvatarVecna

> _I_ targeted Flat. We just received each other's results.


So Caedorus scries kraken, you scry flat, and that results in you gaining info on kraken and caedorus getting info on flat because...why?

- - - Updated - - -




> So, if Kraken is confirmed, that means it has to be one of the supposed neutrals, right? (Or Rogan.) And I think all of them but Caz is confirmed on way or another, right?


You're forgetting Snowblaze as an outside possibility.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

Meta, does your role start with A? Because if so, I can clear you now as well.

----------


## Caedorus

> Fluff text implies flat targeted himself _and_ was targeted by the wolves. The former could be explained by him targeting Cazero, who has some kind of kill-reflecting boon (which is why they were so confident at the thought of being stabbed in the night). The latter could be explained by either corrupted!rogan randing the kill onto flat, or by flat figuring out who the wolf was and using his boon to force them to target him with the NK. That one doesn't require Cazero to be the last corrupted, though.


This is why I didn't target Caz!



> Caedorus, let me get this straight: you were gifted a full-on "scry everything" ability, targeted Kraken, and got all of flat_footed's information?
> 
> 
> 
> Very strange considering he seemed to think somebody had specific reason to want him dead.


Wh wha scry everything no ok I got Orlando's skillset in addition to my own gossip this was my gossip
Also to avoid confusion I only have one night action I cannot gossip and protect



> I can confirm this. My post was a hint at receiving your result. As for Flat That was me. I tried to use a boon power to scry him.


So why on earth did I get flat's results and mine and did you get my results too? What does your power do?

----------


## Metastachydium

> So Caedorus scries kraken, you scry flat, and that results in you gaining info on kraken and caedorus getting info on flat because...why?


No. We both got both results. Caedorus is my Contact as of last night.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> So Caedorus scries kraken, you scry flat, and that results in you gaining info on kraken and caedorus getting info on flat because...why?
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> 
> You're forgetting Snowblaze as an outside possibility.


Meta followed Caedorus. I got info on both Meta and Caedorus last night through Caedorus' power.

----------


## Metastachydium

> Meta, does your role start with A? Because if so, I can clear you now as well.


It's the Ambassador. I claimed it (RL) days ago.

----------


## Batcathat

> You're forgetting Snowblaze as an outside possibility.


Yeah, I suppose you're right. 

Anyhow, unless we learn anything more, I suggest we lynch Caz, then I hopefully learn whether or not Rogan is the bad guy and then we either try to deal with Rogan or take out Snow by lynch or NK. Am I missing something? (Well, I suppose Persolus supposed info on Rogan might make step two meaningless).

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> It's the Ambassador. I claimed it (RL) days ago.


Right okay then I can confirm that Meta is being honest about their role and is not the Corrupted.

----------


## Caedorus

Ahh the one that links ppl

- - - Updated - - -

I'm going for *Cazero* as they probs can't use that kill-deflect twice.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Ahh the one that links ppl


I just wanna confirm because I'm suddenly paranoid: Caedorus, you got results for both flat and kraken, yes?

----------


## Caedorus

> Right okay then I can confirm that Meta is being honest about their role and is not the Corrupted.


Them being honest is the only thing that makes sense for this to happen. Also, Allando got a Snow letter explaining their wincon which I *wont* share.

- - - Updated - - -




> I just wanna confirm because I'm suddenly paranoid: Caedorus, you got results for both flat and kraken, yes?


Yes 10chars

- - - Updated - - -

Clarification: "their" == "Meta's"

----------


## Benoojian

Cazero because I have no idea who protected him

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Them being honest is the only thing that makes sense for this to happen. Also, Allando got a Snow letter explaining their wincon which I *wont* share.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> Yes 10chars
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Clarification: "their" == "Meta's"


...Snow's wincon? Can you at least confirm whether it's mutually exclusive with the Heroic wincon?

This makes Snow more suspicious, not less.

----------


## Metastachydium

> ...Snow's wincon? Can you at least confirm whether it's mutually exclusive with the Heroic wincon?
> 
> This makes Snow more suspicious, not less.


_My_ wincon which I told Snow about in the Blade/her/me chat.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Them being honest is the only thing that makes sense for this to happen. Also, Allando got a Snow letter explaining their wincon which I *wont* share.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> Yes 10chars


Okay, paranoia assuaged. I had this sudden deep wolf paranoia that on the night two people were trying to scry kraken, they both got results as if they had scried flat instead ("flat and flat have one alignment between them").

Anyway, *Cazero* has already tricked people into murdering a townie with two info powers, and maybe also tricked our watcher/vig into killing himself, so maybe just dunk him into a grave today regardless of any other revelations that occur.

----------


## Allando

Ok, I'm sorry *Cazero* but for lack of a better vote target... I think you're it. I think you're trying to powerwolf your way to victory, and I have to say you're doing an excellent job. 
To what day did you claim to have to survive?

Caedorus. Why. I could be posting this in our chat but, seriously, WHY. If you targeted Cazero and he didn't die, we would at least have known that he had that protecting power. Now we know...

Unnamed person I received a message from 1: how do I almost kill you? 

The social one: feel free to metaphorically add my number. 

I am keeping these as cryptic as possible because I'm not sure how much you're willing to reveal, but if you're willing to reveal more, do so.

NONE OF THE TWO ABOVE ARE CAZERO IN CASE HE TRIES TO PULL SOMETHING.

----------


## Caedorus

Now going to bed. Being in a ½-day offsetted timezone *sucks*, everyone just came online :(

- - - Updated - - -




> ...Snow's wincon? Can you at least confirm whether it's mutually exclusive with the Heroic wincon?
> 
> This makes Snow more suspicious, not less.


Wha no it explained only Meta's wincon

----------


## Metastachydium

Die, *Cazero*!




> Now going to bed. Being in a ½-day offsetted timezone *sucks*, everyone just came online :(


Tell me about it. It's past midnoght here and I'm tired as heck.

----------


## Benoojian

If flat targeted himself, then we still have an unrevealed Vortex

Oh ****, wait. Was anyone protecting me last night?

----------


## Batcathat

*Cazero* is less than 10 characters.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> Now going to bed. Being in a ½-day offsetted timezone *sucks*, everyone just came online :(
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> Wha no it explained only Meta's wincon


Yeah it was before your edit! That's fine. I also know something about Meta' wincon, courtesy of Caedorus.

- - - Updated - - -




> If flat targeted himself, then we still have an unrevealed Vortex
> 
> Oh ****, wait. Was anyone protecting me last night?


Nope. I went for Caedorus.

----------


## Allando

Caedoruuuus

----------


## Caedorus

> Caedorus. Why. I could be posting this in our chat but, seriously, WHY. If you targeted Cazero and he didn't die, we would at least have known that he had that protecting power. Now we know...


...That, unlike poor flat, I'm still alive to vote him.

----------


## Cazero

> Anyway, *Cazero* has already tricked people into murdering a townie with two info powers,


Come on now, those others votes were from a town plan to verify the trustworthiness of those info powers. Illven was my sole viable target and you would have done the same in my place.
Unless you would have just given up. And there's only one thing to say to that : *boooo*.

----------


## Benoojian

> Nope. I went for Caedorus.


Dang, I thought for a second I figured out what happened with Cazero

----------


## Persolus

...also, _wow_, this is definitely going to reach a second thread, isn't it

----------


## AvatarVecna

> ...also, _wow_, this is definitely going to reach a second thread, isn't it


Nah, we just all lynch cazero and then game over ez pz. Doesn't require more than 20 posts.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

> ...also, _wow_, this is definitely going to reach a second thread, isn't it


Cough up the Rogan info, Persolus, or we lynch you after Cazero.

----------


## Cazero

Pretty sure I won't get a proper counterwagon, but it's the only one with any chance of success : *Rogan*.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Cough up the Rogan info, Persolus, or we lynch you after Cazero.


Let's be fair, we might just kill them in the night, lynch snow in the morning. Day after that, at absolute worst, we're down a tempted snow, a neutral persolus, and two random lynches from our pile of towncleared.

----------


## Batcathat

> Cough up the Rogan info, Persolus, or we lynch you after Cazero.


We should at least know the important thing about Rogan by EoD, whether or not Persolus cooperates. Not that I'd mind hearing it.  :Small Wink:

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Pretty sure I won't get a proper counterwagon, but it's the only one with any chance of success : *Rogan*.


My only regret is that flat specifically is dead. If I were dead instead, flat could make you vote yourself which would be pretty funny.

----------


## Persolus

> Cough up the Rogan info, Persolus, or we lynch you after Cazero.


One of the statements I've made between the start of D4 and now is false.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> One of the statements I've made between the start of D4 and now is false.


Public statements I assume.

----------


## Persolus

> Public statements I assume.


Oh of course, what would be the point of lying to Rogan?

----------


## AvatarVecna

> I'm very sorry Illven


found the lie  :Small Tongue: 

gg ez pz

----------


## Allando

Persolus:

Are you trying a weird boon/power thing you haven't told us about?
Are you trying to save Cazero? Why?
Are you trying to make the game last longer? 
Why so cryptic?

- - - Updated - - -

Also, I have to say, the wolf kills this game have made no sense to me. Is this just me?

----------


## Persolus

> Persolus:
> 
> Are you trying a weird boon/power thing you haven't told us about?
> Are you trying to save Cazero? Why?
> Are you trying to make the game last longer? 
> Why so cryptic?


Objectively, I haven't told you about my powers at all.
Of course I'm trying to save Cazero! why wouldn't I?
While it would be hilarious if we managed to get it to a second thread, no, I'm not.
Why not?

- - - Updated - - -




> found the lie 
> 
> gg ez pz


 Truly, the Seer can see through all deception.

----------


## Benoojian

Persolus claimed a couple times to have made a deal with Rogan and the deal including not being allowed to reveal details... which weird. I don't know what to do with that.

- - - Updated - - -

@Persolus, does this hypothetical deal allow you to confirm details if we guess them, even if it prevents you from saying them?

----------


## Persolus

> Persolus claimed a couple times to have made a deal with Rogan and the deal including not being allowed to reveal details... which weird. I don't know what to do with that.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> @Persolus, does this hypothetical deal allow you to confirm details if we guess them, even if it prevents you from saying them?


I am not allowed to screw over Town or Corrupted :)

----------


## Benoojian

> Also, I have to say, the wolf kills this game have made no sense to me. Is this just me?


Are we certain there have been ANY wolf kills?

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Persolus:
> 
> Are you trying a weird boon/power thing you haven't told us about?
> Are you trying to save Cazero? Why?
> Are you trying to make the game last longer? 
> Why so cryptic?
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Also, I have to say, the wolf kills this game have made no sense to me. Is this just me?


The only one that seems really strange is the flat kill, at least IMO. Wolf kills have a few factors to take into account:

1) Who has dangerous powers?
2) Who is dangerously skilled?
2a) Who is good at reading this wolf team specifically?
3) Based on public knowledge of 1 and 2, who is likely to be baned tonight?
4) What kill would deny town information?

(Information being denied can include things like "is this skilled player town or wolf", which is always a nerve-wracking question to have going unanswered.)

N1, Ti is killed because she has cool powers (since everybody does in this game), is an old-school veteran, is unlikely to be baned despite both of those, and has said nothing all day so killing her doesn't give any support to any theories she put forth (since she didn't). It's also possible she was good at reading Grand Arbiter, but I don't know either way.

N2, we have a few more claims. Those claims are: the confirmed town masons, the almost-certainly town executioner, and the almost-certainly town Seer's Apprentice. Given it's a very large all-PR game, I would guess there's at least two banes going into that group. 3 of them are newer players and so wolfteam is broadly unsure of skill level, while the fourth is well-known enough to be an easy mislynch even as seer (and thus, a waste of a nightkill). Better to fire elsewhere. If the baners hit somewhere other than those four, it's gonna be on terrifying players like blade. Easiest to just shoot a quiet person who is unlikely to be baned and whose death will give basically no info.

Flat is the weirdest kill, because he was in the rapidly-shrinking POE. This is always a rough place to get as wolf - is it better to shoot someone clear, and gamble yourself against the baners, or is it better to shoot into the POE, shrinking it even further? If the wolves aren't in the POE, that's not a risk, though.

----------


## Benoojian

> I am not allowed to screw over Town or Corrupted :)


Does your deal prompt you into any positive action or only prevent certain actions?

----------


## Persolus

> Does your deal prompt you into any positive action or only prevent certain actions?


Honour system, not strict rules.

----------


## Benoojian

> Honour system, not strict rules.


Do you know the Narrator's alignment?

- - - Updated - - -

Suspect List
1.Cazero
2.Rogan
3.Snow
4.AV
5.Persolus
6.Rakkoon
7.3SC
8.Kraken

----------


## Persolus

> Do you know the Narrator's alignment?
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Suspect List
> 1.Cazero
> 2.Rogan
> 3.Snow
> 4.AV
> ...


I do not know this!

Also, I find it humorous how I've gone from being wolf-read, to being "top townlean", to being "cleared Hero", to being "neutral" to being "wolf" to being...  :Small Big Grin:

----------


## Rogan

Announcement: Since this thread was approaching the limit, a new thread was created. 

You may still post here, but move to the new post when you reach page 50, please.

----------


## Benoojian

Unfortunately for Cazero, no clear wolf target revealed itself today. We need a significant majority to counter his vote power though.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Unfortunately for Cazero, no clear wolf target revealed itself today. We need a significant majority to counter his vote power though.


Can you clarify?

----------


## Persolus

> Can you clarify?


Well, in case you didn't notice, yesterday Cazero was the lead wagon yet Illven got voted off.

----------


## Benoojian

> Can you clarify?


If Cazero was the only vote power yesterday, he moved 3 votes

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Well, in case you didn't notice, yesterday Cazero was the lead wagon yet Illven got voted off.


In fact, I did not notice. I'll have to go check to see how that worked.

- - - Updated - - -

...there's 13 public votes, and 12 in the final vote count. We're only down 1 vote, which could be Batcathat or Kraken, but not both (unless there's even more vote manipulation going on).

If BCH voided their own vote for power, then I think I've got a working theory for how Cazero survived.

----------


## AvatarVecna

Here is the number of times each player voted D3:

AvatarVecna 4
Batcathat 3
Benoojian 7
Illven 3
Metastachydium 4
Snowblaze 3
3SecondCultist 6
Allando 2
Cazero 1
Persolus 1
Caedorus 2
Rakkoon 1
Let'sGetKraken 1

Initial vote count:

Cazero: 6 (AvatarVecna, Batcathat, Benoojian, Illven, Metastachydium, Snowblaze)
Illven: 4 (3SecondCultist, Allando, Cazero, Persolus)
Let'sGetKraken: 1 (Caedorus)
Persolus: 1 (Rakkoon)
3SecondCultist: 1 (Let'sGetKraken)

And final result:

Illven: 6
Cazero: 5
Let'sGetKraken: 1



Take every person who voted once, and put them on the same wagon as Cazero. That's Cazero, Persolus, Rakkoon, and Let'sGetKraken whose votes are now on Illven.

Cazero: 6 (AvatarVecna, Batcathat, Benoojian, Illven, Metastachydium, Snowblaze)
Illven: 6 (3SecondCultist, Allando, Cazero, Persolus, Rakkoon, Let'sGetKraken)
Let'sGetKraken: 1 (Caedorus)

If Cazero's wagon loses a single vote (such as by BCH canceling their vote for power), then that's an exact match for the final results. This also means Kraken's vote counted, just not on 3SecondCultist (because they counted as voting for Illven, who was tempted).

----------


## Snowblaze

*Cazero*. 

Can confirm I told the masons Meta's win condition. 

It does make sense for neutrals who need the game to continue to be trying to keep Cazero alive if they think he's the last wolf. 

I doubt there's much point in almost-killing me, but if the game's still going I wouldn't mind being vig shot tonight... though then again if Cazero dies and game's still going I'm probably the least clear person left so shooting me wouldn't be a bad idea anyway.

----------


## Benoojian

In case AV is right about Cazero's power

Unvote Cazero

Snowblaze

Unvote Snowblaze

Cazero

----------


## Persolus

Alright, since it's no longer really relevant to keeping me alive, my secondary boon is 
"You know, I'd rather not get lynched at all: Starting at day 2, votes for you will be reduced by one."

----------


## AvatarVecna

> In case AV is right about Cazero's power
> 
> Unvote Cazero
> 
> Snowblaze
> 
> Unvote Snowblaze
> 
> Cazero


Personally, I'm waiting for BCH to confirm, cuz my theory might just be wrong. Mind you, because of what snow said about neutrals, I'm not taking Persolus' word that their Boon is responsible for the missing vote.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, and because it's possible Cazero hijacks all the 1-vote people, or all the people who vote the same number of times as him, I would suggest that people not just vote the same number of times as each other. As long as we spread out a bit - some people voting once, some twice, some thrice, for instance, he can't hijack enough of the vote to secure victory.

- - - Updated - - -

I'll also mention: my hypothesis didn't match up with D2, and D1 was harder to check because Rogan wasn't formatting it in a way that makes it easy to check. However, the N3 mayor message was also remarkably different:




> Meanwhile, on the town square, a dozen pieces of paper are shattered. They all read
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Originally Posted by The Mayor
> 
> *THE TRAITOR MUST HANG*


A whole bunch of torn up papers calling for the death of a traitor. Almost reads like someone was stuffing the ballot box and some of the fake votes fell out. It's possible this was a limited-use kill reflect that killed flat when he tried to kill Cazero, but it's also possible this was a limited-use ballot stuffing, so who knows if we even need to worry about this today.

That being said, I would advise people from throwing their votes around on this hypothesis until BCH confirms their part in it. We know things are getting screwed with, but if this isn't the method, we need to figure out what it is rather than just dogpiling him and hoping for the best.

----------


## rakkoon

I say the traitor is *Persolus*, way too shifty, doesn't answer questions, secret deals, nah.

----------


## Persolus

> I say the traitor is *Persolus*, way too shifty, doesn't answer questions, secret deals, nah.


...you're using a power on me, aren't you.

----------


## Benoojian

> I say the traitor is *Persolus*, way too shifty, doesn't answer questions, secret deals, nah.


ORANGE, the orange. I don't trust it!

----------


## Persolus

> ORANGE, the orange. I don't trust it!


We've already seen one power is associated with Orange - wait, has Rakkoon posted in orange before?

----------


## Batcathat

> If BCH voided their own vote for power, then I think I've got a working theory for how Cazero survived.


I did not, my vote should have counted.

- - - Updated - - -




> I say the traitor is *Persolus*, way too shifty, doesn't answer questions, secret deals, nah.


The deal making might make Rogan more suspect as well, considering the name of the game.  :Small Tongue:

----------


## Snowblaze

Possibilities: a) Persolus is lying. The missing vote was Kraken's on 3SC, and so 3SC is mechanically clear. Rakkoon's vote was shifted to Ilven along with one of the Cazero votes.

b) Persolus is telling the truth and so the missing vote is Rakkoon's on Persolus. Kraken's vote counted, but not for 3SC; it was presumably redirected to Ilven along with one of the Cazero votes.

c) Persolus is lying, Kraken's and Rakkoon's votes were both redirected to Ilven and one of the Cazero votes didn't count because _wait a second_ didn't Cazero claim some power that gave them -1 votes? If that's true then it answers what happened to the missing vote in this world. 

So tentative hypothesis: Persolus is covering for Cazero because he wants the game to continue so he can win, Cazero can redirect... no, that doesn't work, Caedorus's Kraken vote counted. I don't know how the redirection happened.

Also worth noting that if Cazero is actually a neutral then one of Persolus/Rakkoon must want him dead, but neither Persolus nor Rakkoon actually voted for him.

----------


## rakkoon

Take two ? Persolus  is a traitor, a book reading, dangerous traitor I tell you!

- - - Updated - - -

Using the law to get out of things Persy? I will not stand for that kind of behaviour!!

----------


## Persolus

> Take two ? Persolus  is a traitor, a book reading, dangerous traitor I tell you!
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Using the law to get out of things Persy? I will not stand for that kind of behaviour!!


Me, going against the law? Impossible! Law and order must always be restored!
Unless you're saying that you believe the law has changed?

----------


## rakkoon

I heard the Devil laughing. You used your book!

----------


## Persolus

Is that so? When did I use it?

- - - Updated - - -

Anyways, the only ones who laugh in this town are gamblers and thieves.

----------


## rakkoon

You used it this night!
And it was the devil I heard laughing.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Cazero: 6 (AvatarVecna, Batcathat, Benoojian, Illven, Metastachydium, Snowblaze)
> Illven: 4 (3SecondCultist, Allando, Cazero, Persolus)
> Let'sGetKraken: 1 (Caedorus)
> Persolus: 1 (Rakkoon)
> 3SecondCultist: 1 (Let'sGetKraken)


Okay, new simpler theory: Cazero steals all the neutral votes and forces them onto whatever wagon he wants. This forces Meta and Rakkoon onto Illven, but Persolus is already there. That leaves the votes looking like this:




> Cazero: 5 (AvatarVecna, Batcathat, Benoojian, Illven, Snowblaze)
> Illven: 6 (3SecondCultist, Allando, Cazero, Persolus, Metastachydium, Rakkoon)
> Let'sGetKraken: 1 (Caedorus)
> 3SecondCultist: 1 (Let'sGetKraken)


At which point, Kraken's vote cancels because 3SC is town:




> Cazero: 5 (AvatarVecna, Batcathat, Benoojian, Illven, Snowblaze)
> Illven: 6 (3SecondCultist, Allando, Cazero, Persolus, Metastachydium, Rakkoon)
> Let'sGetKraken: 1 (Caedorus)


...leaving us with a situation that looks exactly like what occurred.

EDIT: This also means Persolus might be lying, might not, but it doesn't matter because it wouldn't have impacted that vote.

- - - Updated - - -




> *Cazero*





> Cazero





> *Cazero*





> *Cazero*





> *Cazero*





> *Cazero*





> *Rogan*





> *Cazero*





> Cazero





> Persolus


Cazero (7): Caedorus, Benoojian, AvatarVecna, Allando, Metastachydium, Batcathat, Snowblaze
Rogan (1): Cazero
Persolus (1): rakkoon

Not voting currently: Persolus, Let'sGetKraken, 3SecondCultist

If my theory is correct, and none of those three people vote, it will end up looking like this assuming no further vote manipulation:

Cazero (6): Caedorus, Benoojian, AvatarVecna, Allando, Batcathat, Snowblaze
Rogan (4): Cazero, Metastachydium, rakkoon, Persolus

This leaves room for BCH to void their vote for power, and also for kraken to vote off-wagon to test another townie. That being said, I'm worried I might be wrong again. Might be best to just dogpile him.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

Well, I guess Im voting for *Cazero*. If you wanted to survive, you should have given us any reason to want to help you.

----------


## Batcathat

> Well, I guess Im voting for *Cazero*. If you wanted to survive, you should have given us any reason to want to help you.


Maybe I'm not interpreting you correctly, but does this mean that you don't think Caz is the final wolf? Or do you just mean he should've lied better?

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> Maybe I'm not interpreting you correctly, but does this mean that you don't think Caz is the final wolf? Or do you just mean he should've lied better?


I dont think hes a wolf. I also think hes been lying to town, and I dont have any other realistic suspects right now, so his flip will give us more information than we have.

----------


## Metastachydium

AV (and everyone else barring Caz and maybe Persolus): do you need me to remove my vote?

----------


## Snowblaze

Realised it's been a while, so I'd better keep my narrative going.

_Another new day, another few corpses. The woman in white barely noticed. She'd made her desire to kill the mayor known (death could not be cheated, no-one was allowed to escape it when the alchemist had not; besides it only made sense for the town's authority to be corrupt or else woefully incompetent; what use was there for heroes, otherwise?)

She might have been wrong about her being the hero of this cursed story, as well, with the Prince revealing himself and knighting that gossip who'd escaped execution (again, how could other people do it so easily when - ). Which made it even worse: he had died to remind the heroes that they made mistakes, to introduce a spot of grey to the narrative. 

And she had - not forgiven, not forgotten, but put aside her desire for vengeance - because despite everything they were the heroes and the heroes were forgiven anything. There was no point in seeking revenge now if she wanted to live.

She was going to leave this town. What was the use of staying? Too many painful memories, too many people who were complicit in his murder. She'd travel. Alone. Somewhere in the world there would be beautiful places to write poetry about. Somewhere in the world there would be no heroes or villains, just peace. 

Not just yet, though. She couldn't leave this story before she'd seen its ending. It would be soon, though. It had to be._

Again, my character's views do not represent my own with the exception of my being less engaged with this than I was, and that's due to a combination of RL stuff (nothing bad) and the game's having been reduced to kill-and-test-through-POE.

I may have to bring a wandering slightly-insane poet into future games' RP, she's got inside my head now. Oh, and I don't think I explicitly said this earlier but all the references to narrative convention and so on in my RP are due to "poet = storyteller = genre savvy".

----------


## AvatarVecna

> AV (and everyone else barring Caz and maybe Persolus): do you need me to remove my vote?


I'm not sure if it makes a difference. It can't hurt I suppose?

----------


## Metastachydium

Alright, here we go: *Unvote: Cazero*. (Die, Cazero!)

----------


## Persolus

> You used it this night!
> And it was the devil I heard laughing.


What, pray tell, does this book do?

----------


## Cazero

> What, pray tell, does this book do?


Is it the Necronomicon? Can it raise the dead?
Because that would be hilarious(ly broken).

----------


## Persolus

...hang on a second. Rakkoon, did you say that _I_ used this book, or that the book was _used_?

----------


## Benoojian

> Is it the Necronomicon? Can it raise the dead?
> Because that would be hilarious(ly broken).


It would be hilarious if someone was brought back to life and that was the extra player, not Rogan.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> It would be hilarious if someone was brought back to life and that was the extra player, not Rogan.


If that happened, they're probably neutral.

EDIT: Like, no way we started 3 corrupted/3 tempted, right? So the 1 tempted has to be the fourth one we started with, meaning we still have a liar among current claims. If rezzed player was hero, they'd know liar was a hero claimant, and call em out.

----------


## Persolus

My book is completely incapable of doing that.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, I'm going to be gone until EoD, so *Rogan*

----------


## Allando

> The only one that seems really strange is the flat kill, at least IMO. Wolf kills have a few factors to take into account:
> 
> 1) Who has dangerous powers?
> 2) Who is dangerously skilled?
> 2a) Who is good at reading this wolf team specifically?
> 3) Based on public knowledge of 1 and 2, who is likely to be baned tonight?
> 4) What kill would deny town information?
> 
> (Information being denied can include things like "is this skilled player town or wolf", which is always a nerve-wracking question to have going unanswered.)
> ...


Thanks for the explanation, I had just expected the wolves to kill me after the whole "I have a protective power and I'm using it"-shenanigan.



> I do not know this!
> 
> Also, I find it humorous how I've gone from being wolf-read, to being "top townlean", to being "cleared Hero", to being "neutral" to being "wolf" to being...


I confuse-read you.



> _Another new day, another few corpses. The woman in white barely noticed. She'd made her desire to kill the mayor known (death could not be cheated, no-one was allowed to escape it when the alchemist had not; besides it only made sense for the town's authority to be corrupt or else woefully incompetent; what use was there for heroes, otherwise?)
> _


... wait, are you one who needs the mayor dead?

----------


## Metastachydium

A book. The Wombat had a book for sale.

----------


## Allando

> My book is completely incapable of doing that.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Also, I'm going to be gone until EoD, so *Rogan*


1) so you _have_ a book, and Raccoon knows? hmmm...
2) Are we voting Rogan now? Should I change my vote?

----------


## Persolus

> A book. The Wombat had a book for sale.


This is most definitely a different book, one that Rakkoon apparently knows all about, but which was stolen from me yesterday and returned this morning.

----------


## Caedorus

Quick question: what are the odds that Pers is the one that wants Caz dead? I realised that "neutral wincon's won't affect other player's wincon" might be "neutral players won't be obliged to kill non-neutral players".
https://imgflip.com/i/77hk6y

----------


## Batcathat

> 2) Are we voting Rogan now? Should I change my vote?


I don't think so. I should hopefully find out whether Rogan is the enemy by EoD, so it's probably better if we deal with Caz first and then, if the game doesn't end, we either try to deal with Rogan or we know he's not it and start looking elsewhere. Now, there's technically a risk that by not lynching Rogan right now, we lose somehow (presumably due to the corrupted's hidden wincon) but I don't think it's very big.

----------


## Persolus

> Quick question: what are the odds that Pers is the one that wants Caz dead? I realised that "neutral wincon's won't affect other player's wincon" might be "neutral players won't be obliged to kill non-neutral players".
> https://imgflip.com/i/77hk6y


I promise that I don't have to kill Caz to win.

Congrats on being able to post links!

Also, Rakkoon, I don't know how much you know about my book, but unless it interferes with your wincon, don't reveal it please?

game got a bit more active, but _now_ I'm leaving.

----------


## Caedorus

On pc btw

I suggest voting Pers tomorrow if Caz isn't the last scum
Need to go do other things now, will fiddle with my sig later to remove the empty spoiler

----------


## AvatarVecna

> On pc btw
> 
> I suggest voting Pers tomorrow if Caz isn't the last scum
> Need to go do other things now, will fiddle with my sig later to remove the empty spoiler


We'll figure out tomorrow's lynch after we finish today's...and for that matter, after we get results from night powers.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

*AvatarVecna*.

*Unvote AvatarVecna.

AvatarVecna*.

----------


## Snowblaze

> Thanks for the explanation, I had just expected the wolves to kill me after the whole "I have a protective power and I'm using it"-shenanigan.
> 
> I confuse-read you.
> 
> ... wait, are you one who needs the mayor dead?


Only if the mayor also happens to be the last wolf. (I'm confirmed not-neutral via AV scrying me/Meta as different alignments. And BCH outing me as Tempted.)




> A book. The Wombat had a book for sale.


Nope. He had something else, which I bought. I told you what it was. So yeah, I guess my character was the last person to see Wombat alive. In her defence she was rather distracted by the other death that night.




> *AvatarVecna*.
> 
> *Unvote AvatarVecna.
> 
> AvatarVecna*.


I was very confused for a minute before remembering vote-scry is a thing.

----------


## Benoojian

So I was toying with the idea of Cazero having a target reflection night power, but that theory only works if someone targeted me for protection

----------


## Rogan

*End of day 4*

*Spoiler: Mech*
Show


*Spoiler: Votes*
Show

Cazero 6 : caedorus, benoojian, AV, allando, batcathat, snowblaze, 3SC
Rogan 2 : cazero, persolus
Persolus 1 : rakkoon
AV 1 : kraken


Taking into account all vote manipulations, this results in the following:

*Cazero 5*
Rogan 2

*Spoiler: Cazero*
Show

The Mayor
You are the Mayor, corrupted. You win when the corrupted gain a majority of the living players.
You are a good mayor and well liked by many of the inhabitants. They listen to your words and respect your position. However, there is this one guy who wantÂs to steal your position.
In order to prevent this from happening, you made a deal with the devil.
Political Immunity: You count as having one vote less for the execution.
Political Power: Once per game, your daily vote will count for three.
Official Proclamation: Each night, you can send a text to the narrator. It will be published as a ÂProclamation of the MayorÂ at the start of the next day.

I See what you did there (Boon): Each day, you will be told which abilities the target you are voting for used the night before.

They have died


This day was different. There wasn't much discussion, the target was clear. Cazero had to die. 

_You don't understand ! It was all for the good of Burlow !
I'm a good mayor ! You know this ! You all know ! I've done so much good for the town !
I've been exemplary for years !
There is but a few dissenters ! Anarchists ! Don't listen to their lies, listen to me ! I'm your mayor !
Have you all forgotten all the good I did ? All the sacrifices I've made, all for the town ?
You can't turn on me like that after all I've done ! You love me, you know it !
Ingrates ! Traitors ! To Hell with you ! All of you !_

These were his last words, before Benoojian, the Executioner, silenced him with a single swing of an axe.

The unassuming man watched calmly before stepping forward. "Well, seems like my pawns were not up for this task..." he said with a creepy smile, before shredding his mask and revealing himself as the Devil. "You made this town safe again. But you couldn't safe everyone! This one will be mine!" He grabs the Gambler, Rakkoon and sends him straight to hell. The poor guy didn't win a single bet.
Next, Rogan turns to Persolus. "You did well, my Advocate, but you still failed..."
"You, on the other hand, managed to forget a strong alliance for the Floral Kingdom. They will be proud of their Ambassador" These words were directed at Metastachydium. It felt strange, the fearsome Devil, getting outplayed by a potted plant, but there was nothing he could do against this.

Be proud, Citizens of Burlow...

The Devil disappeared with a puff of Smoke.

*Spoiler: OOC*
Show

 The game has ended with a victory of the heroes, tempted, and the neutral Ambassador. Since I'm only phoneposting, I won't reveal all the other roles right now, but feel free to do this yourself. 

As the Devil, my victory condition was the players having fun. So, it's up to you to decide my fate.

----------


## Batcathat

Alright, I guess sometimes the easy answer actually is the answer.  :Small Smile: 

Good game, everyone.

----------


## Xihirli

I _did_ have a lot of fun even when my plan fell apart in front of me.
But I almost want to say no JUST to deny you your victory.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

Huh yeah I was convinced it was actually secretly AV or Allando. GG everyone.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> The Seers Apprentice
> You are the Seers Apprentice, hero. You win when the town is save again.
> Your dream is to learn the art of divining the true state of the souls of the people. But right now, you can only distinguish the state of souls in direct comparison.
> Weak Scry: Each night, you can target two living players. You will be told if they share the same alignment. You cant target yourself.
> Immunity to Friendly Fire (Boon): If someone sharing your alignment uses a hostile power on you, it will not work. This immunity will also protect you against redirected power usages and similar (otherwise, it would be significantly weaker in case of a corrupted rand)


Here was my role.

----------


## Let'sGetKraken

Also Persolus I am intensely curious what your deal was. Meta won as Ambassador, but what was going on with you?

----------


## 3SecondCultist

So yeah, I knew Allando and Ti were Town from the start. Here's my full claim.

*The Prince*
You are the Prince, hero. You win when the town is save again.

Born into royalty, the expectations for you are high, but you also can command great power to fulfill these expectations. But should you ever fail, your fall would hit hard.

*Guards!:* You start the game knowing the identity of the Knight, and the Guard, both heroes of the town. Each day, you may send an order to them, which they will receive at the start of the night. However, in times of crisis, they might not believe in your authority.
(You send a message to me, I will send them to the players in question. I will clarify that this message was the result of a power and the content is made up by another player, without telling anything about the truth content)

*Knighting:* Once per game, you may target one living player. They will gain the powers of the knight in addition to their own.

*Royal Holiday:* Once per game, you may announce a royal holiday. There will be no execution this day.

*Royal Blood:* If you get killed by the corrupted, they gain one additional night kill in the next night phase.

----------


## AvatarVecna

> Huh yeah I was convinced it was actually secretly AV or Allando. GG everyone.


I thought Allando was definitely clear cuz that would require a narrator lie, but I was getting really worried that Ben was a deepwolf who spent a 1/game "save from the lynch" so he could spend the whole game living snug in an outed mason's pocket.

----------


## 3SecondCultist

> I thought Allando was definitely clear cuz that would require a narrator lie, but I was getting really worried that Ben was a deepwolf who spent a 1/game "save from the lynch" so he could spend the whole game living snug in an outed mason's pocket.


This was a concern I shared, but honestly at that point I was willing to give Ben the win for it.

----------


## Benoojian

> I _did_ have a lot of fun even when my plan fell apart in front of me.
> But I almost want to say no JUST to deny you your victory.


Oh my God, so you definitely had no idea that you picked the worst townie to frame?

----------


## Batcathat

Right, my role: (I must've been one of the very few, maybe the only one, who never claimed?)

*The Farmer*
You are the Farmer, hero. You win when the town is save again.
You are always fighting one of mankind's greatest enemy: hunger. Some may refuse to honor you for this fight and deny to call you a hero, but once you gift them some rations, they will change their mind.
*Farming*: Each day, you can choose to work your fields. Your vote wont count, but you will gain two rations, which can be used for your Gifting power. 
*Gifting*: Each night, you can gift your rations to living players. They will learn your power and alignment. You cant target more players than youve got rations, but you may keep some rations for later usage.
*
Justified Paranoia*: Once per day/night cycle, you can ping me about some paranoid theory you posted in the main thread. If I deem it sufficiently paranoid (so not simply "Snow is bussing" 😉 ) I'll let you know if your paranoia is justified or not.

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## Let'sGetKraken

> Right, my role: (I must've been one of the very few, maybe the only one, who never claimed?)
> 
> *The Farmer*
> You are the Farmer, hero. You win when the town is save again.
> You are always fighting one of mankind's greatest enemy: hunger. Some may refuse to honor you for this fight and deny to call you a hero, but once you gift them some rations, they will change their mind.
> *Farming*: Each day, you can choose to work your fields. Your vote wont count, but you will gain two rations, which can be used for your Gifting power. 
> *Gifting*: Each night, you can gift your rations to living players. They will learn your power and alignment. You cant target more players than youve got rations, but you may keep some rations for later usage.
> *
> Justified Paranoia*: Once per day/night cycle, you can ping me about some paranoid theory you posted in the main thread. If I deem it sufficiently paranoid (so not simply "Snow is bussing" 😉 ) I'll let you know if your paranoia is justified or not.


Oh damn, that is strong. 

I was exactly what I claimed on the tin. No additional powers or boons! Just the Lookout's shout and the can't-vote-for-heroes.

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## Benoojian

I was the executioner hero.   Cancel one Lynch once per game and get a private chat with the condemned each night.  There was a little bit of confusion over how that worked with the death flip Which I did subtly encourage people to believe there was a cool down.  But there was not.

 My boon was I know something You don't know.  Each night I could target one  Person and learn one piece of information that is about them but that they do not explicitly know.  That's why I couldn't target the narrator.  They know everything about this game so I couldn't get any information that they don't know

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## Batcathat

> Oh damn, that is strong. 
> 
> I was exactly what I claimed on the tin. No additional powers or boons! Just the Lookout's shout and the can't-vote-for-heroes.


You mean the boon? It was more useful than I thought it'd be, though the whole "has to be sufficently paranoid" thing was quite a limitation, since that pretty much meant I couldn't check the most likely theories.

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## Benoojian

> I thought Allando was definitely clear cuz that would require a narrator lie, but I was getting really worried that Ben was a deepwolf who spent a 1/game "save from the lynch" so he could spend the whole game living snug in an outed mason's pocket.


Honestly, fair. I probably would have taken the 3 for 1 deal of Cae, Allando, and 3SC in my pocket if I was Executioner wolf.

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## Metastachydium

Okay, so closing comments, because I'm a SLOW typer on a fast Discord channel:
1. masterfully done, Rogan! Thank you!
2. I absolutely didn't expect Back Scratching is going to be quite _that_ good. The Love Triangle thing? It's easily the most funny thing that ever happened to me in one of these games.
3. Cazero, you made a terrifying doomed final dog! Very good job!
4. AV: that meme thing was _beautiful_ while it lasted. (Also, thanks for the Full Amnesty).
5. I never got to use my boon. How come I never got to use my boon??
6. Hey, Snow! This was a wild ride. I seriously entertain forgiving ONE horrible slight of yours against my person for this.
7. I'm _really_ curious what the Trashpanda's thing and _especially_ Persolus's was.
8. I seriously considered typing up a long treatise about how Rogan very evidently must be Devil because of the f/v thing. Oh well.

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## Rogan

> 8. I seriously considered typing up a long treatise about how Rogan very evidently must be Devil because of the f/v thing. Oh well.


You mean, the Defil, right?   :Small Wink:

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## rakkoon

My apologies to Persy, I was trying to create some chaos to make the game last longer. I failed.

- - - Updated - - -

Fun game, thanks y'all.

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## Metastachydium

> You mean, the Defil, right?


Natürlich, Herr Teu_f_el-turned-De_v_il! (The entire other half of the argument beyond your being German would have consisted of the peculiar use of _ov_ as a substitute for _of_ in certain thematic subgenres of Black Metal.)

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## Benoojian

What was the Corrupted's extra wincon though?

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## Batcathat

> What was the Corrupted's extra wincon though?


Rogan mentioned it on Discord, it was for 50 percent of the NPCs to die.

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