# Forum > Gaming > Roleplaying Games > D&D 3e/3.5e/d20 >  Mega-Dungeon help

## AOKost

I'm starting on a journey, stealing ideas from many sources, including the Tippy-verse, and Danmachi (an Anime - Is it okay to pick up girls in a dungeon (for those that don't know it)), and I was wondering if there's been anyone that's worked on a d20 project like that... 

Project end goals:

Dungeon levels 1 - 100 'fleshed out' with monsters appropriate for their areas, including cities for 'intelligent' races like Kobolds, Goblins, Drow, etc... and to use _all_ the monsters and races from the Monster Manuals and Beastiaries, spread across the floors in a roughly CR based manner... so floor 1 would have all the 'CR less than 1', and each floor can potentially be as big as it needs

Every 20ish floors, there's a 'safe / sanctuary' floor where there is literally no combat allowed... ever... These are the floors that groups return to when they're deeper in the dungeon.

The last floor will likely be dedicated to 'kaiju' battles or a battle royal with the PCs and _all_ the kaiju... This just opens up that the Dungeon is a living entity that's being used as a 'seal' for something... horrendous... and also keeps the cyclical 12k year cycle of destruction at bay... The other 'big secrets' are that the dungeon itself is alive, and that all the other dungeon entrances in the other 6 Cities (for a total of 7) all lead to the same dungeon... but the likelihood of reaching those cities by navigating the ever changing inner corridors of the living dungeon are virtually nil.. 

If anyone has any sources that are along these lines that already exist, I'd seriously appreciate any help!

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## Batcathat

I'm not super familiar with it, but I think World's Largest Dungeon is kind of close to what you're talking about.

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## AOKost

> I'm not super familiar with it, but I think World's Largest Dungeon is kind of close to what you're talking about.



While that does potentially correct, I don't have $170 (as of this post on Amazon) to purchase it, only to get a roughly fleshed out book that doesn't give what I'm looking for to begin with, but it is a great suggestion none the less...

I'm looking to make my own notes, with the communities help... I could easily go to sites like d20psfrd and do a search of all the CR X and throw them into random spots in the dungeon on the roughly appropriate floor... but that doesn't help with potentially making 'societies' with the more intelligent denizens of the dungeon itself at large... Not to mention the Juggernauts that come out if you damage the dungeon itself too much... The only floors that can be colonized are the 'safe' floors...

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## Gruftzwerg

Imho Waterdeep + Underdark would be a fitting scenario (for the anime). Maybe you can find any free campaign or stuff on the internet regarding this option?

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## Beni-Kujaku

> While that does potentially correct, I don't have $170 (as of this post on Amazon) to purchase it, only to get a roughly fleshed out book that doesn't give what I'm looking for to begin with, but it is a great suggestion none the less...
> 
> I'm looking to make my own notes, with the communities help... I could easily go to sites like d20psfrd and do a search of all the CR X and throw them into random spots in the dungeon on the roughly appropriate floor... but that doesn't help with potentially making 'societies' with the more intelligent denizens of the dungeon itself at large... Not to mention the Juggernauts that come out if you damage the dungeon itself too much... The only floors that can be colonized are the 'safe' floors...


Most of the maps of the WLG (with notably all present monsters in maps A to C) were published here: http://www.james.neetersoft.com/wld/wld.htm 
You can check if it is what you're looking for before buying the full book.

Edit: Also I found the pdf for $40 here, $170 might be a bit overpriced.

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## Thane of Fife

There are numerous Megadungeons out there (Rappan Athuk, Stonehell, Anomalous Subsurface Environment, more that I'm not remembering the names of.... You should be able to easily find a list with a Google search). Most are for retroclones rather than directly for 3.5. I will say that I have heard only bad things about World's Largest Dungeon, so that would not be the one I would look to for inspiration.

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## Inevitability

World's Largest Dungeon seems like a very bad template to work from if you want to have a megadungeon with every published monster. The encounter design is questionable, the monsters are strewn about the map without rhyme or reason, the editing is bottom-tier, and the book directly advises DMs to withold XP, fudge die rolls, and conjure limitless reinforcements in the name of making combat more 'memorable'.

This (lengthy) review goes into good detail.

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## AOKost

> Most of the maps of the WLG (with notably all present monsters in maps A to C) were published here: http://www.james.neetersoft.com/wld/wld.htm 
> You can check if it is what you're looking for before buying the full book.
> 
> Edit: Also I found the pdf for $40 here, $170 might be a bit overpriced.



Very good to know... though I'm likely not gonna use the maps... as a 'living dungeon,' it continues to change over time... so while the exits from floor to floor are likely roughly in the same spot, the floors themselves change very frequently, other than around 'settlements' and the 'safe' floors...

I was hoping more for help fleshing out the floors, as in the first floor should have XY and Z critters running around with each other in a similar biome type of help rather than "Go get this book, it has all the answers," especially when I know it doesn't because I want to use _everything_ in the Monster Manuals 1 - 5 (including Mind Flayers, Beholders, and the like), Fiend Folio, as well as everything from the Bestiaries 1 - 6 (I have them all), etc... I have all the books in my physical library, but I want to put them to use as I describe the different areas the characters are going to come across in the biomes they enter...

I _can_ do it all myself, but its often very nice getting others input because I don't have all the answers..

I'm trying to build my own world, even if I steal a lot of stuff from other areas...

So, think of each floor _actually_ being a new plane of existence in the multiverse somewhere like the Great Stairway, and the Great Tree of Yggdrasil... and thus as it moves slowly through it's section of the multiverse, the 'dungeon' around it changes, require frequent remapping... 

I could really use some help fleshing out the a somewhat realistic hierarchical system, where the primary pillars of the City the game takes places in are the Guild, the "Parliament" and the Merchants / Craftsman... The "Parliament" is little more than a public figure where the real power is with the Guild, and the Merchants / Craftsman 

But then you have the sub-factions of the different areas of Merchants Guilds, and Craftsman Guilds and where they overlap...

Not to mention how the Parliament is set up and if the parliament is set up of elected leaders and / or kings / queens (insert similar title here)... I mean, each of the 7 - 10 Cities (I'm never certain how many mega-cities you can put on a planet the size of Jupiter and still have plenty of room for the unknown.. logically speaking..

I'll also be transcribing much of what's gathered here to a 'journal' for the upcoming game...

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## AOKost

> World's Largest Dungeon seems like a very bad template to work from if you want to have a megadungeon with every published monster. The encounter design is questionable, the monsters are strewn about the map without rhyme or reason, the editing is bottom-tier, and the book directly advises DMs to withold XP, fudge die rolls, and conjure limitless reinforcements in the name of making combat more 'memorable'.
> 
> This (lengthy) review goes into good detail.



This is actually something that I've heard, but as I don't have the book, I've not made my own judgement call... But that is actually a big reason I wanted to ask, aside from purchasing a book I can't afford at the moment...

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## Beni-Kujaku

> I'm trying to build my own world, even if I steal a lot of stuff from other areas...
> 
> So, think of each floor _actually_ being a new plane of existence in the multiverse somewhere like the Great Stairway, and the Great Tree of Yggdrasil... and thus as it moves slowly through it's section of the multiverse, the 'dungeon' around it changes, require frequent remapping...


You must find a reason why this mega-dungeon is there. Why did the gods and other ultra-powerful beings (be they at the bottom or outside having created the dungeon to seal the mega-BBEG) choose to bring so many varied creatures in the same place? To exploit them? To act as guards? What of the plethora who can teleport? How do they keep them inside? Why would they need a room with a regular giant toad if they have the ability to keep balors a few floors down? Is it an XP farm? A colosseum for their amusement? Why do they let adventurers inside and why do they not have the monsters already there fight each other? 

Are the 7 cities in the first layer or outside the dungeon? Are there actual cities, actual countries inside the dungeon? How big is a typical layer? As big as a layer of the Abyss (that is, spatially infinite)? Functionally infinite (say, as big as a country, a continent or a planet)? As big as a regular city (with creatures still able to live their own life and to have a kind of food chain)? Or as cramped as a regular dungeon (with literally about one room per species or less)? 

If it's the latter, you might want to just imagine a few dozen rooms for each floor (I guess there would be about 40 floors, each dedicated to a CR, but the deeper ones actually being multiple CRs at once). Each one is a bit of a greenhouse put there by the Powers Down Below and focusing on one or two monsters, in their "natural habitat". If the dungeon shifts constantly, then you can roll for your players each time they go through a door, or choose one thematically appropriate. Know that your players will not, ever, explore completely any single layer. Not only would it be extremely boring (it would take decades of weekly sessions to clear the whole dungeon, with a few years only fighting creatures of CR 2 or less), it would completely upend the XP system. 

If it's the city-sized layer, create a few NPCs ruling each layer. Definitely more powerful than the rest, but who can still be met, opposed and possibly fought by the PCs. Especially choose a different philosophy for the rulers of the layer in regards to the dungeon. "It protects us from what lurks below", "It traps us, we want to go out", "I don't care about the other layers", "I worship the layers below", "the dungeon does not exist, the portal to the other layers only bring death", "It gives us infinite food, we likes it"... If each layer can communicate, then such a size is perfect for having some sort of pyramidal hierarchy/oppression.

If it's one of the former, then choose a specific kind of weather for each layer (probably getting inspiration from the Abyss, one layer could be Coruscant, with a planet-wide city, one could be the Frostfell, one an infinite ocean, one a gigantic desert, one an ever-changing plain, one a forest-covered mountain...). Don't worry too much about the overall lore of a single layer, it can be a single sentence ("people live with a dog-eats-dog mentality, encouraged by the multiple prides of minotaurs recruiting all animal-like creatures and terrorizing the layer", "Dystopian world where everybody shares everything, and keeping a secret is frowned upon and immediately brought to the angel milicia, a layer-wide force busy keeping people from other layers from invading.", "the Guild of the City has complete control over this layer, and exploits all monsters in there for their usual benefits. Going to the next layer requires paying a hefty toll or hunting a dangerous beast", "Anarchistic good-aligned world trying to escape the dungeon, believing the exit is down instead of up. The inhabitants always prepare for war, sending waves after waves of soldiers to clean one layer after the next and menacing the seal in its entirety"...). However, always make sure there is at least one or two quests on that layer, and at least two named NPCs (one "guide", and one "final boss". Could be the same character, but there must be a beginning and an end to each layer)

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## AOKost

> You must find a reason why this mega-dungeon is there. Why did the gods and other ultra-powerful beings (be they at the bottom or outside having created the dungeon to seal the mega-BBEG) choose to bring so many varied creatures in the same place? To exploit them? To act as guards? What of the plethora who can teleport? How do they keep them inside? Why would they need a room with a regular giant toad if they have the ability to keep balors a few floors down? Is it an XP farm? A colosseum for their amusement? Why do they let adventurers inside and why do they not have the monsters already there fight each other? 
> 
> Are the 7 cities in the first layer or outside the dungeon? Are there actual cities, actual countries inside the dungeon? How big is a typical layer? As big as a layer of the Abyss (that is, spatially infinite)? Functionally infinite (say, as big as a country, a continent or a planet)? As big as a regular city (with creatures still able to live their own life and to have a kind of food chain)? Or as cramped as a regular dungeon (with literally about one room per species or less)? 
> 
> If it's the latter, you might want to just imagine a few dozen rooms for each floor (I guess there would be about 40 floors, each dedicated to a CR, but the deeper ones actually being multiple CRs at once). Each one is a bit of a greenhouse put there by the Powers Down Below and focusing on one or two monsters, in their "natural habitat". If the dungeon shifts constantly, then you can roll for your players each time they go through a door, or choose one thematically appropriate. Know that your players will not, ever, explore completely any single layer. Not only would it be extremely boring (it would take decades of weekly sessions to clear the whole dungeon, with a few years only fighting creatures of CR 2 or less), it would completely upend the XP system. 
> 
> If it's the city-sized layer, create a few NPCs ruling each layer. Definitely more powerful than the rest, but who can still be met, opposed and possibly fought by the PCs. Especially choose a different philosophy for the rulers of the layer in regards to the dungeon. "It protects us from what lurks below", "It traps us, we want to go out", "I don't care about the other layers", "I worship the layers below", "the dungeon does not exist, the portal to the other layers only bring death", "It gives us infinite food, we likes it"... If each layer can communicate, then such a size is perfect for having some sort of pyramidal hierarchy/oppression.
> 
> If it's one of the former, then choose a specific kind of weather for each layer (probably getting inspiration from the Abyss, one layer could be Coruscant, with a planet-wide city, one could be the Frostfell, one an infinite ocean, one a gigantic desert, one an ever-changing plain, one a forest-covered mountain...). Don't worry too much about the overall lore of a single layer, it can be a single sentence ("people live with a dog-eats-dog mentality, encouraged by the multiple prides of minotaurs recruiting all animal-like creatures and terrorizing the layer", "Dystopian world where everybody shares everything, and keeping a secret is frowned upon and immediately brought to the angel milicia, a layer-wide force busy keeping people from other layers from invading.", "the Guild of the City has complete control over this layer, and exploits all monsters in there for their usual benefits. Going to the next layer requires paying a hefty toll or hunting a dangerous beast", "Anarchistic good-aligned world trying to escape the dungeon, believing the exit is down instead of up. The inhabitants always prepare for war, sending waves after waves of soldiers to clean one layer after the next and menacing the seal in its entirety"...). However, always make sure there is at least one or two quests on that layer, and at least two named NPCs (one "guide", and one "final boss". Could be the same character, but there must be a beginning and an end to each layer)



I'll try to answer some of your questions as readily as I can, given that this is still in the brainstorming phase, and literally nothing has even been put down on notebook paper to outline anything, let alone going into the journal(s) that will be used as the 'world / dungeon guides' for the DM and Players alike...

This dungeon has many purposes, the primary of which is as a Seal to seal away a creature that was seen by the gods of this world to be a harbinger of doom, a Great Wyrm Malcurion Dragon whos motives were beyond their understanding that had effectively inadvertently wandered into the solar neighborhood as it were. To that end, the biggest and deepest held secret of those that rule over the dungeon (basically a singular god held as completely neutral, who happens to be the head of the Guild) and a few of his cronies is that the dungeons seal is enhanced / strengthened by the souls and strife of those that enter the dungeon.. It isn't there to outright kill those that seek to traverse it's depths, but it isn't going to outright prevent those that delve from dying either.. The purpose for the varied creatures in the different biomes is to potentially further the development of humanity as a whole, but you have to risk to get the potential things from where they are. Many of the creatures bodies can be harvested for valuable parts, components of spells, poisons, things that can be used as remedies but most of the creatures literally spawned from the dungeons walls are strictly there to be XP farms to increase the potential of those that delve the dungeons / increase their level for when they inevitably die and be absorbed into the dungeon to strengthen the Seal.

Sometimes the monsters do fight among themselves, and when that happens, there will be stronger variants that have 'evolved' somehow and be a 'mini-boss' of an area. Sometimes there are 'magic wells' be they actual fountains of water like flows that can be imbibed and even bathed in that would alter and change them, or crystals, or even the flesh of others on the floor.

While the Dungeon is in many ways an enormous colosseum for the amusement of the gods, most of the gods have chosen to give up the super vast majority of their powers to become immortal (do not need to eat, drink or sleep, and do not age nor die of old age, but can be killed through basically any other means, and then they return to the heavens, unable to return for 100 years), and come to 'earth' (because I haven't named the planet yet) to form 'Familias' (yes, I'm outright stealing this). 

Teleportation is limited to single floor use only, unless you have an ability that allows you to traverse to another plane of existence.

The Cities are all based outside the dungeons entrences, and the Guild controls all known entrences, because things can 'escape' from time to time, as well as be brought out by 'familias' but events known as Beast Tides happen very rarely, and the fortifications set up at the entrences of the Dungeons have always held them at bay.. That's one of the primary jobs of the Guild, besides Exploration, and trying to keep the more hazardous things out of the general publics hair / safety. But the Guild, as strong as they are, try to be as completely neutral as they can be when it comes to anything remotely related to politics. They strictly want nothing to do with it. They are there to do their jobs. The better job they do a their job, the more likely a promotion after a written exam (thus, promotion based on merit and skill / knowledge). Each Cities populace is somewhere around 10 billion, using food & water traps to sustain a healthy population, even if the food usually isn't tasty... thus there is a thriving market for 'fresh' produce that's magically grown in extradimensional warehouses, not to mention the 'delicacies' that are brought out by the adventurers that delve the dungeon and bring back the meats of powerful creatures...

There are indeed countries within the Dungeons, much like the Drow have their huge cities in the normal underdark, the areas between the Biomes is effectively treated as being the Underdark.. The first several layers have different tribes of goblins and Kobolds, Gnomes, and all kinds of races that want to live there, including fey, in the right areas.. The dungeon has an 'attractive' quality that makes creatures _want_ to be in the areas of the biome / plane where the biome is currently traversing, so those biomes are always thriving with the appropriate creatures / monsters for the CR..

As for the actual size of teach layer, yes, they are effectively infinite... in fact, each biome, if you're not careful, can be infinite if need be.. Hence the Guild constantly having to 'remap' the dungeon as it changes.  There are well known 'anchors' that are the dungeon level entrences and exits, and if you don't stay close enough to them, you end up in the back rooms... I mean in another plane you hadn't meant to go to and are effectively lost forever... This usually requires special circumstances though... because while the 'effective' size is infinite, the actual size of each biome that's 'stable' is about the size of a large city (Los Angeles / New York / etc).

The Dungeon in my games isn't meant to be fully explored by my group, or any group for that matter... As for XP... I don't use a standard system for leveling as I use XP as a point buy system to allow my players to purchase basically whatever they want, if they meet the prerequisites and have enough XP... But basically everyone else in the world is stuck being 'standard' characters... who are, granted, stronger and far better in many ways than the common citizen... but it's a similar comparison when compared to a Custom Character..

As for Factions among the Floors... Most will be friendly due to the dealings of other adventurers and the Guild paving the way, but there will be those that actively wish to 'escape' the dungeon, be they dungeon - spawned creatures (likely a template that I will work up that makes everything with it basically mindless and aggressive to anything with an intelligence above 5).. or civilizations like the Drow, and the Illithid..

And for simplicities sake... Most socities that I'm going to be using are going to be relatively friendly 'merchant' types that would rather encourage trade, rather than war... surprisingly, especially the Illithid.. The Neogi on the other hand...

In my games.. The beginning and end of each layer will likely be the PCs desire for stronger enemies / more XP... And because enemies are so potentially prolific, I need to cut XP down to like 5 xp / level appropriate mob lol

The sessions are going to be more geared in the sense of 'old school' This session, we got to X point before we had to return to town... We got back to town, did our downtime stuff, spent our money and XP, gained whatever skills and abilities they're going to gain, and the next session, going back into the dungeon, maybe a different area, maybe the same... it just depends on how the game goes and what the players and I want...

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## DrMartin

check out the necro ranchers campaign journal on this forum for 
a) a fun read
b) a good spin on a megadungeon
c) a great way to handle an evil party
d) a crippling addiction to read it all until you finish it, which will delay every project you have going on until you are done with it (experience may vary)

all bundled into one

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...mpaign-Journal

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## AOKost

> check out the necro ranchers campaign journal on this forum for 
> a) a fun read
> b) a good spin on a megadungeon
> c) a great way to handle an evil party
> d) a crippling addiction to read it all until you finish it, which will delay every project you have going on until you are done with it (experience may vary)
> 
> all bundled into one
> 
> https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...mpaign-Journal



I'm sorry to say that that wasn't very helpful for my needs...

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