# Forum > Play-by-Post Games > Finding Players (Recruitment) > Out-of-Character >  OOC: Sands of Fate: With Homebrew

## Dieuoffire

*Spoiler: Per Admin Request*
Show

 I am attaching at the very first a link to the Recruitment thread and the In character Thread.
Recruitment
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...-with-HOMEBREW
In character
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...0#post25549840




Here is the beginning of the OOC thread welcome to the players
D&DPrinceTandem: Yohaan, The Whitefire Lily
LairdMaon: Callen Luster
MagneticDragon: Ferrous
Cassus: Of the Tide, the Eyes
niw18: Puck, The Charming Mind Assassint
Yas392: Blanc
Novabomb: Toboruk Shellshan
Balthanon: Aralis

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## Yas392

Blanc will be claiming *Bold Blue* for her speech.

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## LairdMaon

Callen Luster will speak in this nearly sea green.

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## MagneticDragon

Colours for speech? Hmmm, that's pretty neat, I have to admit.

Let's see, Ferrous is an alchemist... and alchemy has a lot to do with gold. So *how about this?* Should be dark enough to show up against the white background while still being gold.

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## Cassus

Of the Tide, the Eyes will use *This Purple*, then.  I'm so stoked that the game's afoot!  Off to make a post now.

Also, Callen, I don't know if it's just my weak eyes, but your speech is almost indistinguishable from normal text.  Apologies, but would you please bold it or some such to make it stand out a bit more?

Also, will there be a Discord for OOC chatter?

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## niw18

Puck well speak in this *color*

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## Novabomb

*Toboruk*
speaks in Green

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## Dieuoffire

I know it is unusual but I had a player who posted some of their characters thoughts so you could get a feel for their tone. It made for better understanding but one time another player misinterpreted his thoughts for speech. then because I read their post, so did I and a bad guy reacted to something that they should not have. 10 posts later we figured out the problem and had to redo a section. Now I like to be clear. Plus I found that it allows me to place a different voice over the words in my head.

You also don't have to have a color but I like something to differentiate thought, action and speaking. especially later if we happen to have telepathy (which becomes thought/speaking) as in 

I say *"Hello who are you?'* then telepathically speak to Bili. _Hey bili, this the guy we are going to kidnap?_ While thinking; _That is right bili, you still think I don't know; Don't worry I found out you're going to betray me. I see that knife there._ I ready my weapon and prepare to turn on Bili. then reply to my real ally *Oh you don't speak common, no problem.* *Ni quet- eldarin!* 
*Spoiler: OoC*
Show

that is to say: I speak Elvish.


And that is why complicated conversations are made easier by clear communications.

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## Novabomb

Traditionally _italics_ are used for thoughts.  I definitely use this convention.

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## Cassus

How many people here do that with italics?  I tend to just type thoughts as normal text, phrased as descriptions-- *"That's a big dragon,"* the warrior said.  He knew this would be bad, bad day.

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## D&DPrinceTandem

Yohaan will take* Grey (or Silver)
*Stoked to see where Yohaan's path leads, and who will be beside her wherever it leads.
*Speech* will be "*Quote Bold*", _Thoughts_ will be _unquoted italics_; telepathy will be "_Quote italics_". I think this covers all bases.
@DM; What is the general state of the people in Afon? asking in regard to stuff like general prosperity of goods and services (if a marauding force is nearby it's probably not good business to make trade with a town in the area).

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## LairdMaon

Looks like Callen's attempt at breaking the ice caused a minor fuss, hahaha

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## Yas392

Good grief. The amount of attention Blanc gets by her presence alone is astounding.

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## MagneticDragon

I just realised that my character needs 5 ranks in a Knowledge skill to have access to Collector of Stories and that Knowledge (Nature) makes the most sense thanks to the amount of time they spent among elves and fey (with Spellcraft being their arcane knowledge). So my knowledge (Nature) check has a +4 bonus to it. As well as the +5 from Collector of Stories itself. 

Hopefully, Gather Information isn't too important of a skill as I lost my only skill point there to gain enough skill points for the Nature ranks.

Edit: And I rolled a natural 1. So I don't think that matters anymore. 




> Good grief. The amount of attention Blanc gets by her presence alone is astounding.


To be fair. She is a scantily clad blue woman. She's visually the most noticeable person to arrive so far, so it is of little surprise.

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## LairdMaon

> Good grief. The amount of attention Blanc gets by her presence alone is astounding.


It was the water connection that did it for Callen. I tried to make that clear IC

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## Yas392

> To be fair. She is a scantily clad blue woman. She's visually the most noticeable person to arrive so far, so it is of little surprise.


I blame the blue that makes her stands out and her sense of fashion secondary. Although the different reasons behind the attention on her are interesting.

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## Dieuoffire

I have no Idea why I cannot seem to do a roll I'm going to try once more here 
(1d20)[*2*]

figured it out, you can't preview a post with a die roll. I do that a lot because I find I make plenty of mistakes if I don't

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## Yas392

*@Dieuoffire* Anything on the man with crystalline blade from her knowledge check?

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## Cassus

Question-- do you use passive scores for anything (sense motive, spot, etc), or do we need to call for everything?

Also, are we using Perception or Spot+Listen?  I saw a houserule combing hide+move silently into stealth, but not one for perception.

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## MagneticDragon

> I have no Idea why I cannot seem to do a roll I'm going to try once more here 
> [roll0]
> 
> figured it out, you can't preview a post with a die roll. I do that a lot because I find I make plenty of mistakes if I don't


Huh, I see. Luckily I managed to avoid encountering that problem myself with my post. I'll have to remember that the previews work that way.#




> Also, are we using Perception or Spot+Listen?  I saw a houserule combing hide+move silently into stealth, but not one for perception.


I found this in the first post of recruitment:




> ~Spot and Listen become one called perception. Perceptions skill is a class skill either hide or move silently or both are a class skill(s)


I think Dieuoffire meant Perception is a class skill if either spot or listen or both are class skill(s) though.

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## MagneticDragon

Oh damnit. I missed the rolls even with that knowledge.

Well, here they are.

*Perception* - (1d20+17)[*18*] Keeping an eye on Anwar and his companions
*Sense Motive* - (1d20+15)[*35*] Gauging their emotional reactions
*Bluff* - (1d20+15)[*26*] Downplaying his knowledge
*Diplomacy* - (1d20+19)[*20*] Convincing them of his story, and his judgement of their abilities.

Edit: A Natural 1. A Natural 20. An 11. And a _third_ Natural 1? Are you genuinely kidding me? What on earth is with this luck?

Edit 2: Did the maths. I currently have a 43% rate on Natural 1s.

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## Dieuoffire

Yas392
I responded to your PM about the guy but I guess I can post it here too. Sorry about taking some time. 
Anwar is definitely not famous, perhaps it is a pseudo name? If he is a bard, he would be reasonably well known by the time he came to own a blade like he carries now.
@Cassus
Not usually, passive scores I generally dont do. You have already got the answer on spot/listen
@magneticdragon
Yep, yep, and yes again, I need to fix that in house rules. Thanks for pointing it out.
They after telling you you avoid that you do it Not trying to be rude but that was funny. I will post according to those rolls IC
Wow those 1s are bad averages.

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## LairdMaon

Please don't think I'm aiming to be quiet or lacking impetus to post. I'm just trying to find some way to engage with the other players after my first attempt failed miserably.

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## Dieuoffire

(1d20+21)[*31*]

One day I will get this right

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## Dieuoffire

@Laird
Comment on the ice queen, worked for everybody else. :D

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## LairdMaon

Hahaha! The ice queen _was_ my attempt!

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## Yas392

It is like this game is telling Blanc to believe Anwar.  :Small Tongue:

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## Cassus

> Please don't think I'm aiming to be quiet or lacking impetus to post. I'm just trying to find some way to engage with the other players after my first attempt failed miserably.


When in doubt, move towards the action (or create some action yourself).  Even if it's hard to join the conversation, putting your character in center stage or drawing attention to them makes it easier for other players to reach out and engage with them.

Alternatively, yell at Anwar and cheer for Tide!  Can't go wrong that way!

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## LairdMaon

I've spent the day in thought over this and I think I have a very unwise plan of action. I'm going to need someone to hold my beer on this'un...

18 with no modifiers is way better than I hoped.

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## Yas392

Will be waiting for Puck's response. Interested to see how he reacts.

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## D&DPrinceTandem

Just posting to note that I am still very into the game; simply finding it difficult to formulate a post [guess in the getting to know them part of playing the character] Ill try to get something in tonight or tomorrow

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## Yas392

Feel free to approach Blanc. She is open for conversation if your character wants to interact with her.

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## Dieuoffire

It won't be too hard to 'Get to know you' as most of you are not going with the group that leaves. Even saying nothing but standing there when other are not will likely garner you the attention of others.

@Cassus
I agree that you have unlimited attempts. I disagree that there is nothing to notice. The SLA section says they still need an action; can provoke AoO and must concentrate. Also when you make a save the target Knows that something tried invading their mind. The first time around Anwar might not have been able to tell, for sure (he was looking at you) but if you try again, he might disagree with you using SLA on him. He is a high enough level to know what that is like. And again you are right their focusing on him. (You don't need the focus component, you still need concentration.)

Do you want to make a bluff check to try and make it seem like it is not you?

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## Cassus

@Dieuoffire

Duly noted.  I've removed it from the post, then, given the new ruling.
Also, I don't have unlimited attempts-- I get it once per day per HD.

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## Dieuoffire

No problem. Honestly SLAs are great for a lot of stealth things but it is not perfect, there are ways to notice who is magically attacking you.

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## niw18

sorry for the delay  post asap

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## D&DPrinceTandem

Updated my post and will probably need to update it again.updated again

Spellcraft DC 18 for the Bestow Curse: (1d20+12)[*21*]

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## LairdMaon

Woo! Party infighting! 

_Sigh_

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## D&DPrinceTandem

irrr, Id say more so deescalation, Yohaan has no intention to fight Callen. I have no intention of pvp.
moving the effects of callens Magic is more reliable for Yohaan than attempting to dispel it and she has already identified the spell and knows that she can remove the curse.
I'll reword my post if I need to, but I meant to portray Yohaan in the least hostile way, to both parties (Callen and the Drow).

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## LairdMaon

Callen identified an individual who could pose problematic. He attempted to befriend that individual. His efforts were rebuffed and that individual then explained that he was, in effect, a bad actor.
Callen then cast a spell to weaken that individual so that he would have a more difficult time doing such unpleasant things as seducing and sacrificing a large number of people. 
Even pragmatically, that's criminally wasteful. 

Now a new person has stepped up to assist the bad actor. 

This is how Callen is seeing things. His motivations and reactions. His reasoning, as it were.

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## D&DPrinceTandem

This is all valid and I (DPT: the player) understand all of it and probably would have roleplayed the same way given your character's background and personality. Yohaan on the other hand, noticed a Necromancy spell being cast, and a hostile situation brewing between two people who she believes are fighting for the same cause. In an attempt to de-escalate the situation, she disrupted the magic and offered to heal the ailment. If more information where to be present to her she may have regretted the action but from her point of view, Callen is an aggressor against what she currently perceives as an ally (the drow) to the goal. However, Callen would respond to Yohaan's actions is simply that (and whether he would know that she was the source of the magical redirection is questionable), his response. At the very minimum Yohaan wishes to move to aggression to herself, she can control how she reacts to hostility, she cannot say the same for another. I will tell you that very little will bring her to actually fight Callen though.

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## MagneticDragon

My apologies for the delay in posting. While I knew that events were happening this weekend for me, I overestimated how much time I would still have to myself and found myself unable to find a satisfactory window to reply.

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## Balthanon

Missed the new thread post apparently.  Just signing in here for now; I'll be catching up.

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## Cassus

> Missed the new thread post apparently.  Just signing in here for now; I'll be catching up.


I had that problem for a while too-- because the IC and OOC threads have the same name, the "new message" notifications get lumped together (at least by Gmail).

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## MagneticDragon

Ah, now that's much better. A nice strong 16 on Diplomacy, for a total of 35.

Let's see how Mister 'Anwar' deals with this new issue, shall we?

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## Balthanon

> I had that problem for a while too-- because the IC and OOC threads have the same name, the "new message" notifications get lumped together (at least by Gmail).


I missed both of them. :)  The identical thread titles is a bit challenging to differentiate though.

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## Cassus

> @D&DPrinceTandem
> Tide did not cast a spell, he used a spell like ability (which is not the same). Also it is not counter-able, so none of the rings abilities work on it. But the other action by Callen is valid and you might recognize Tides use of a SLA just by seeing him concentrate.


That's a bit worrisome.  I was expecting spell-like abilities to be more subtle than this-- do people need to roll something or anything to recognize that Tide is using a spell-like ability?

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## Yas392

*@niw18* Blanc has been living under a rock in her Gensokyo-esque land until recently for quick reference and she is still accruing knowledge of this world.

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## MagneticDragon

... Really?

A 35 Diplomacy roll had... absolutely no effect? I mean, I'm guessing you made another roll with Anwar, which we just didn't see? Which is strange, as you rolled everything else. But a solid 35 Diplomacy, a 16 with a 19 modifier, was completely ineffective? No one else went 'wait a second, that's a good point'?  No one else decided that Ferrous was right, something was fishy about all of this? 

I understand why I have been unable to stop the company from moving out entirely. I did roll a Natural 1 for diplomacy the first time. But why was my second diplomacy roll _completely_ ineffective?

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## LairdMaon

I'd say it's not all that ineffective if the player characters are now basically all coming to you or your vicinity.

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## MagneticDragon

Hmmm, I guess so. I will acknowledge that I did not read every post that had been made. Once I saw that my diplomacy check had seemed ineffective, I came here to express my uncertainty over this ineffectiveness and wondered why it seemed to do so little. 

I guess diplomacy does work somewhat on player characters.

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## D&DPrinceTandem

> ... Really?
> 
> A 35 Diplomacy roll had... absolutely no effect? I mean, I'm guessing you made another roll with Anwar, which we just didn't see? Which is strange, as you rolled everything else. But a solid 35 Diplomacy, a 16 with a 19 modifier, was completely ineffective? No one else went 'wait a second, that's a good point'?  No one else decided that Ferrous was right, something was fishy about all of this? 
> 
> I understand why I have been unable to stop the company from moving out entirely. I did roll a Natural 1 for diplomacy the first time. But why was my second diplomacy roll _completely_ ineffective?


It could be because of this as well



> Try Again
> Optional, *but not recommended because retries usually do not work*. Even if the initial Diplomacy check succeeds, the other character can be persuaded only so far, and a retry may do more harm than good. If the initial check fails, the other character has probably become more firmly committed to his position, and a retry is futile.


But it seems to have worked out to the party's [to be] benefit so all's well that ends well.

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## MagneticDragon

Hmmm. I would argue that it is not exactly a retry, but instead an entirely different roll. But I suppose I could understand that logic.

Assuming that is the DMs reasoning.

Regardless. I will be making a post today.

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## Yas392

Waiting for @D&DPrinceTandem and @niw18 post. Otherwise, I will make a post later today or tomorrow.

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## niw18

posted @Yas392

@dm  is balth part of game  ?.?

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## Balthanon

> posted @Yas392
> 
> @dm  is balth part of game  ?.?


I am; I was in the last game, missed the post for the new threads and was catching up after I was notified about it.

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## niw18

ok  was not to sure  that's why asked welcome to game

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## Dieuoffire

Sorry guys for taking a bit to reply I have been rather busy. I have a crazy life and it just got crazier.

@Magnetic dragon, 
Your diplomacy was not ignored. But there are several considerations that have to be added in, I usually dont explain myself very much but as we are all new and getting to know each other I will.

1 As PrinceTandum said. You are trying to convince people of the same thing. Different approaches but essentially the same thing. Ever had a sales man recognize he was losing his sale and switch tactics? And you just got annoyed because you could see through it. you did well enough that it did not hurt but it was not entirely as awesome as if you got that on the first attempt.

2 Anwar is (and previously has been) using not just his own skills but he is working upon prior built rabblerousing, and other lass fair things. (Yes this gives him an unfair advantage, Yes that is exactly what he wants. Yes I let him do it as his story includes this and yes it is possible that you *may* find out why, in game. Which investigation I hope you will find fun.) 

And finally 
3 Not all rolls have immediate and obvious effects. Your final roll may not instantly change everything but that does not mean that it did not change anything. 
I will tell you that you did have one immediate and obvious effect. Anwar realized you were going to take people away from him. So instead of fighting a losing battle he just moved on to: On to victory! before people could say Hey wait a minute

You see I have found that, like a good story in a book, some results when delayed tend to make things much more dramatic later. For example Luke Skywalker trying to convince his father to turn from the dark side was much more dramatic when Vader turned later at a more dramatic time.

My point is that I am not trying to railroad, nor ignore, Im trying to write a story where everything is not immediate not always obvious. People might later recall your efforts at a more dramatically appropriate time.

@Cassus
People would need to roll (And not an easy one) to recognize it was you, unless they have a reason to believe it was you, at which point they are guessing. Like say, you and the target where in the middle of an argument Now they may also find themselves embarrassingly wrong too if they assume. Hence why Anwar did not accuse you at all, he assumed that his opponent was attempting something, but said nothing as he had no proof. 

You *can* do the same (Assume that is), but I warn you; if you point it out and youre wrong you might just make trouble. A devious opponent might just make you accuse the wrong person (hehehe. Oh I mean I would never have a sly enemy set you up to look really bad or accuse an important figure just to disgrace you and make your arguments null and void.)
Also if a target makes a save (Successfully) they know hostile magic was attempted against their minds.

@everyone
Bath is the player from the prior game that wanted to return. They did not get far so he knows only slightly more than you. He did however connect his character to the story in his background. (Nothing amazingly secret or anything.)

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## Novabomb

A note: I will have unreliable internet for the next week.

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## MagneticDragon

Hmmm, delayed results huh? I will have to try and keep that in mind, going forwards. Thank you very much for being able to address my confusion on this matter.

That being said, there is something else I need to bring up Dieuoffire. Specifically, that Ferrous was addressing _everyone_ in the square. This includes the few NPC characters that he was able to convince to stand down and not join the convoy. Assuming they are still interested in engaging with the Hellblades, he wishes to know what they are capable of, so that he can include them in planning. 

I will most likely make a post today or tomorrow regardless, but I believe it was important to bring this distinction up.

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## D&DPrinceTandem

Hey all, I've been abnormally busy with work for the last few days, thankfully my employers say "the weekend is sacred until its not".

I will be posting sometime today.

also, I also would like it to be known that I have managed to become the 61st post on both of these threads lol.

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## Dieuoffire

@magneticDragon

That I did not quite get. Sorry my bad. 

I will say that those gathered are much less powerful than you are. They were counting upon massive numbers rather than individual power. After having just convinced those present that a group of over 40 would not do it. You would be hard pressed to convince them to join a group of 6. However you also did talk about planning so if you want to have them stay, you will have to convince them that you can do with 6 what 40 with leadership bonuses (Inspire) can't. 

Of course you can recruit later, after finding out what happens to the band of heroes. Up to you. for now I am going to just let it go unless you want to go out of your way to recruit right now.

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## MagneticDragon

Ah, I see, fair enough.

Probably best to leave them be. I'm guessing they are probably at level 3 or 4, maybe 5 at the highest? You have a point that by themselves, few in number, and without a bard to empower them, they likely will not be able to do much.

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## Balthanon

The better route might be taking the path that we did in the original game for the NPCs-- convince them that they can help best by supporting the town and protecting it from a potential retaliatory raid.

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## Cassus

Makes sense, though it seems like they're doing that anyways.

Did you have any issues with panic when you told people Hellblades might attack the town?

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## Balthanon

It was mostly background; nothing notable though.

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## Dieuoffire

most people did not believe or want to admit that the Hellblades were yet strong enough to attack a good sized town. They want to believe that they will be protected before it comes to that. Only a few really understand how strong the Hellblades *might* be. People (unwise NPCs in particular) tend to believe what they want to. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRIIwJh1DDQ
about at 2:35

movie references, sometimes they just say the right thing.

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## Cassus

Quick question for everyone before I make my "avoid detection" post-- Tide did ask a while back if anyone had a way to stay in touch at long range, since he was going to stealth closer to the group; did anyone have such an option?

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## LairdMaon

Callen does not have any such distance communication ability. 
And I like the rear guard idea best.

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## Yas392

Waiting for Ferrous to act as middle-man between the groups if he wants. Both sides are too prideful in their convictions to listen to one another. I am fine if we are going two groups for a while if there is no progress. 

Regarding long range communication, IC-wise Tide does not know whether Blanc has and she is not in the mood to reveal it to him due to the above situation. OOC-wise, she does not.

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## LairdMaon

It's less a pride situation than a trust issue for Callen. He feels like Yohaan acted without any regard for context and is likely to do that again. That's a cause to worry for him; it could result in unnecessary injuries and hardships.

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## MagneticDragon

Hmmm, seems no one has any methods of long-range communication. That's something we will have to look into in the future.

For now, Ferrous intends to stay quite far behind, on the edge of sight. Unless Anwar is regularly checking behind them, he should not know they are being followed. It means we are less capable of moving to help if they are ambushed, but Ferrous does not want to get ambushed himself. 

Plus. He needs to move slowly for a while if he's to summon Ghost to his side.

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## Yas392

Will be posting my response IC tomorrow.

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## Balthanon

So... here's a question-- what can we do to get the party together at this point?  Because splitting the party was at least part of what killed the last thread.  And given that off the cuff RP doesn't appear to have done the job, we might want to plan out what actually would make this party get together so we can work towards it.

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## Yas392

Hinges on Ferrous. He has a chance. Blanc shot Tide and Toboruk down (they annoyed her that she doesn't bother responding to them) and others did not commit. He can still catch up to them at this point and convinced them because he impressed her. Blanc is waiting for Yohaan and Puck to answer so she has not gone out yet. It is a matter of saying the right words and appeasing her pride (pride and insensitivity are her flaws). Ferrous might have partly did that in his last post (e.g Callen not retaliating with barbs and walking away). Blanc gave him the answer already (apologize to her on behalf of his companion (Tide), mend the professional fence between Yohaan and Callen (partially fulfilled) and introduce the party to them).

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## LairdMaon

At this point, Callen's only lasting issue is with Yohaan. Even that is nearly settled as far as he's concerned. He won't be using any magic on her, good or not. 
He has little to no opinion on the others whom he hasn't really met yet. 

He sees Blanc as little more than a potential business partner.

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## Cassus

> Hinges on Ferrous. He has a chance. Blanc shot Tide and Toboruk down (they annoyed her that she doesn't bother responding to them) and others did not commit. He can still catch up to them at this point and convinced them because he impressed her. Blanc is waiting for Yohaan and Puck to answer so she has not gone out yet. It is a matter of saying the right words and appeasing her pride (pride and insensitivity are her flaws). Ferrous might have partly did that in his last post (e.g Callen not retaliating with barbs and walking away). Blanc gave him the answer already (apologize to her on behalf of his companion (Tide), mend the professional fence between Yohaan and Callen (partially fulfilled) and introduce the party to them).


As politely as possible, is there any scenario in which Blanc cooperates with everyone else without getting everything she wants?  I think this really hinges on her as the only one who hasn't expressed a desire to work with the whole group to take down the Hellblades.

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## Yas392

> As politely as possible, is there any scenario in which Blanc cooperates with everyone else without getting everything she wants?  I think this really hinges on her as the only one who hasn't expressed a desire to work with the whole group to take down the Hellblades.


Yes. If Callen did not throw a fruit at her and Tide did not begin his aggressive recruitment pitch (and rubbed her the wrong way), she would have join without an issue and those conditions. Currently, a precarious situation that led to her to meet with the other group and speaker other than Tide, Toboruk, and possibly Callen. Even then that is a maybe.

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## Cassus

> Yes. If Callen did not throw a fruit at her and Tide did not begin his aggressive recruitment pitch (and rubbed her the wrong way), she would have join without an issue and those conditions. Currently, a precarious situation that led to her to meet with the other group and speaker other than Tide, Toboruk, and possibly Callen. Even then that is a maybe.


In other words, no, at this point in time, there is not a scenario in which Blanc cooperates with everyone else without getting everything she wants?

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## Yas392

> In other words, no, at this point in time, there is not a scenario in which Blanc cooperates with everyone else without getting everything she wants?


That sums it up.

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## MagneticDragon

Quick aside, but DM, is there any chance to change the title of this thread to include 'OOC'? When I am looking at the threads from my Usercp, it's almost impossible to tell which one is which.

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## Yas392

> That sums it up.


No, that is a maybe. 

*@Dieuoffire* Is there a path that does not require following Ferrous's group but keeping track of them?

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## D&DPrinceTandem

Will be posting shortly (and will edit a response here abt the Yohaan | Callen and my thoughts on how it could work in the future)

Edit: long night and longer day that followed.. updating now




> At this point, Callen's only lasting issue is with Yohaan. Even that is nearly settled as far as he's concerned. He won't be using any magic on her, good or not.


 I feel like the initial event that was their confrontation, while causing something of a Player-on-Player clash, was necessary. Not knowing anything of the situation, Yohaan only wants to help good people. She, a tiny bit naive, was operating under the thought that everyone that has gathered had intentions to destroy a common threat. Having sensed an offensive and debilitating magic she sought to end the confrontation where it started. OOC Yohaan wouldn't know that Callen is a PC and not an NPC.

Possible mending of the Callen / Yohaan relationship could including one acknowledging the others use (Callen attacking/defeating something hostile towards Yohaan; Yohaan -begrudgingly- healing Callen). The biggest learning experience for Yohaan could be her having to heal someone afflicted by the drow, forcing her to come to the conclusion that if it wasn't for her action, the drow's victim could have been averted or at least lessened. Something that would be extremely ironic (at the expense of Yohaan) is if Callen was the victim  :Small Tongue: , which given the vengeful nature of drow and the unforgetting nature of elves in general is quite possible.

----------


## LairdMaon

> Yes. If Callen did not *throw a fruit at her* and Tide did not begin his aggressive recruitment pitch (and rubbed her the wrong way), she would have join without an issue and those conditions. Currently, a precarious situation that led to her to meet with the other group and speaker other than Tide, Toboruk, and possibly Callen. Even then that is a maybe.


Pretty sure it was tossed to, not thrown at. One action is friendly, the other is hostile.

----------


## Yas392

> Pretty sure it was tossed to, not thrown at. One action is friendly, the other is hostile.


They are synonymous with one another but she interpreted the action as same and hostile because Callen did that action while she was focused on Anwar, blotting out all noises except from the bard + unfamiliar with the gesture/greeting + thought he was attacking her. Granted, she lived under a rock and is acclimating to civilization but still have lots to learn in terms of interactions, social cues and culture.




> Will be posting shortly (and will edit a response here abt the Yohaan | Callen and my thoughts on how it could work in the future)
> 
> Edit: long night and longer day that followed.. updating now
> 
> I feel like the initial event that was their confrontation, while causing something of a Player-on-Player clash, was necessary. Not knowing anything of the situation, Yohaan only wants to help good people. She, a tiny bit naive, was operating under the thought that everyone that has gathered had intentions to destroy a common threat. Having sensed an offensive and debilitating magic she sought to end the confrontation where it started. OOC Yohaan wouldn't know that Callen is a PC and not an NPC.
> 
> Possible mending of the Callen / Yohaan relationship could including one acknowledging the others use (Callen attacking/defeating something hostile towards Yohaan; Yohaan -begrudgingly- healing Callen). The biggest learning experience for Yohaan could be her having to heal someone afflicted by the drow, forcing her to come to the conclusion that if it wasn't for her action, the drow's victim could have been averted or at least lessened. Something that would be extremely ironic (at the expense of Yohaan) is if Callen was the victim , which given the vengeful nature of drow and the unforgetting nature of elves in general is quite possible.


Same with Blanc. Her naivety/pride/insensitivity caused some unrest. I think she can reconcile with the other group after multiple future interactions or if they save her/her group which leads her to joining them with nearly zero resistance.

----------


## D&DPrinceTandem

> Pretty sure it was tossed to, not thrown at. One action is friendly, the other is hostile.


Toss and throw are generally interchangeable, the difference generally defines the velocity and method of launching the projectile. You can throw a ball and not be hostile. On the other hand, tossing a grenade is generally not friendly. I would say the case in game is subjective. Callen thought the action was friendly; Blanc interpretated the action as mildly annoying and somewhat hostile. Both have their own merit based of experience and background, nobility generally don't have things thrown at them as a sign of friendliness; Seamen generally have a more callous humor and friendly jest, to a point were tossing fruit would never be a hostile action.

----------


## MagneticDragon

You know, it is at this moment that I really wish I had decided to have Ferrous with an explosive pack ready to go, rather than deciding that it would be best to wait for a time that making one would be appropriate. This would be a perfect opportunity for one. Sneaking into the undercarriage of a carriage, and then letting it detonate after several seconds. Giving Tide plenty of time to sneak away while doing very significant damage to the carriage and its wheel.

As it is. I simply hope that Tide has a different way to sabotage a carriage. Or that our resident urban druid can cast charm animals.

... Hmmm, that reminds me actually. Is there any chance that we can have Aralis' character sheet? And that people update the colour-claiming posts to have their character sheets as well? Being able to see what people can do is quite important for plans I feel.

----------


## D&DPrinceTandem

> ... Hmmm, that reminds me actually. Is there any chance that we can have Aralis' character sheet? And that people update the colour-claiming posts to have their character sheets as well? Being able to see what people can do is quite important for plans I feel.


eer, I personally wouldn't request that. Everyone who needs that information (that being Balthanon and Dieuoffire) has that information. I'd say you should plan based on what Ferrous knows; for example, nobody knows that even though she is not armed, Yohaan can have physical weapons in a moments notice, nor does anyone know that Yohaan can both fly as fast as a raven and shoot lazers from a height of twice the height birds generally fly at.

You knowing she is a Druid and the party is lvl 9, you could guess that she has the ability to cast at least lvl 2 or 3 druid spells at max 4th lvl druid spells. Druids also do spells like clerics (unless Aralis as the spontaneous divine caster variant) so you could reasonably conclude that any druid spell could be on her prepared spell list.

Just sayin, it wasn't posted in the last game (I just checked) nor in the last recruitment, so it probably won't be added here. 
Personally I'd prefer to be in the same boat as Balthanon (because immersion n shizz) but eh, it be what it be.

----------


## MagneticDragon

Why not? Everyone else has access to everyone's character sheets, and if this was an IRL game, you would undoubtedly be able to look at and share the character sheets there as well.

So why should I not request to look at the only character sheet that for some reason is kept private?

----------


## Yas392

Ferrous just lost his advantage with that respond IC.

Thirded on not requesting sheet. It encourages metagaming and breaks immersion.

----------


## Balthanon

> Why not? Everyone else has access to everyone's character sheets, and if this was an IRL game, you would undoubtedly be able to look at and share the character sheets there as well.
> 
> So why should I not request to look at the only character sheet that for some reason is kept private?


I mean, to be fair, I don't think I've ever actually been in a real life game where we actually traded character sheets-- the amount shared about the character was always verbal and depended on the player.  Might be a difference in gaming groups though; perhaps that's more standard in some.  

It is common online definitely, but it just wasn't something I chose to do here given that it was an option to handle it this way.  Seemed like an interesting approach given that it was possible and the type of character that I was running.  I don't mind the request, but I'll stick with the decision for now given that I've come this far. :)

----------


## MagneticDragon

Hmmm, very well. If that is your choice, then I will respect it. A strange decision to make, but I suppose there are reasons for it.

I still hope that people will edit their posts on the front page, however, as the sheets can be found in recruitment already. It will be nice to make things slightly easier for us all.

----------


## Balthanon

So... if we're outright running two groups at this point with no foreseeable reconciliation; we should probably add some type of banner on the posts or something so that we know which group a given player is in at a glance and don't accidentally respond to each other.  (And having the character name in the banner as well wouldn't hurt, so it's easy to recognize the character talking.)

This is particularly important if one of the groups is apparently intending to use the other as sacrificial goats/tools to be used without their consent (which is kind of what I got out of Blanc's comment about baiting the Hellblades into attacking us instead of them or using us as a "search tool".  It's possible I'm conflating the earlier sentence with the 'lure' portion, but it isn't a good look regardless.)  If that comment was in hearing range of the four that went with Tide that is just...  not sure what to call that, but it's verging on PVP and I would assume would pretty much kill any possibility of reconciliation, which isn't really what I signed up for personally.  It also seems like it falls outside of the good alignment (or acting like you're good) that was mandated for this game.

Honestly, that comment might be an opportunity for the other two that are in that party to kind of step in and try and talk Blanc down from her position about absolutely no compromise.  Maybe realize exactly how far this has gotten out of hand and that we do likely need each other after all if they're talking about things that are missing in the smaller parties and tricking the other group into combined combat anyway; we could have "neutral" parties in each group meet and talk through how we could actually work together then.

----------


## Yas392

As I said before, reconciliation with Blanc without her demands is possible. She needs multiple interactions with the other group or the other group needs to swoop in to save her/her group.

As for tool, it is a suggestion. It is a group decision and she will follow the majority vote. And the assumption of the bait is incorrect. Blanc is baiting the Hellblades into attacking her as soon as her group finds the Hellblades and luring them into the range of Yohaan and Puck where they can attack them.

----------


## Cassus

> As it is. I simply hope that Tide has a different way to sabotage a carriage. Or that our resident urban druid can cast charm animals.


Tide can cause damage to objects, but he's not sure what the endgame was.  I (OOC) thought the plan was to just try to ambush the ambushers; if there's a more surefire idea in someone's head, do share!

Regarding sharing sheets-- it's not that sharing sheets is expected automatically (I've been in groups where "session 0" is everyone making characters together, but I've been in many where the sheets are not shared at all).  Rather, it's that, given that everyone else shared their sheet, it's oddly asymmetric that Balthanon did not.


Also, I'll second what Balthanon said in #93-- both of our groups know the others' rough location, at least; we've only just started the trip.

----------


## LairdMaon

I'm having trouble keeping track of who is in which party. The degree of conflict going on has become exhausting.

----------


## Balthanon

> Tide can cause damage to objects, but he's not sure what the endgame was.  I (OOC) thought the plan was to just try to ambush the ambushers; if there's a more surefire idea in someone's head, do share!


I think that is where we started, and where we might end up-- we're also looking at opportunities to turn them back though, because even if we intervene in the ambush, it's likely a fair number would die in it.  I think partially there's also a desire to just interfere with what Anwar is doing too.

----------


## Yas392

> I'm having trouble keeping track of who is in which party. The degree of conflict going on has become exhausting.


We can put our team name on the title to distinguish our groups until we come together. Sorta like a team name with initials for example like my title.

----------


## LairdMaon

Based on factors such as silliness, simplicity, and my love of the Rocky Horror Picture Show,  I am arbitrarily dubbing the teams: Brad and Janet.

As such, Callen will be on team Brad. Alright, y'all, pick your team!

----------


## Novabomb

On sheets:
Personally I am always in favor of that information being available.  Characters discussing their specifics of capabilities is the type of thing that feels like it should be off-screen events unless it is meant to highlight a notable signature ability.

That said, I definitely understand if some people want to keep that information hidden, especially since there can be secrets, or notable powers to be suddenly revealed.  For people who go this route, I suggest having a spoiler in the color choosing post to indicate what powers have been revealed.
--
On party joining:
I think that the most likely avenue centers on Puck creating a social overlap eventually, as that character seems to have the esteem of both groups for now.

Its a more of a wait and see thing, since both sub-groups contain characters with significant pride.

I think that once characters get a chance to show off what they can do, that characters may become more accepting on the basis of mutual respect.  (It would be useful if we can get both parties fighting in close proximity to each other)
--
On da plan:
There is a subset of the larger group that want to disrupt the caravan on the basis of thinking it might save lives.
Toboruk does not consider that the moral, but will not try to thwart those who choose to pursue that as it has some tactical value if done by stealth.
We really need to find a portion of the ambushing force.

----------


## MagneticDragon

While the initial idea I had was to ambush the ambushers. I have been convinced by others to try my hand at different options, to try and stop the ambush from playing out at all, though ambushing the ambushers still seems to be an option in case the new ideas don't come through.

Sabotaging the carriages, spooking the horses, laying a trail... all of it is there to slow down and prevent the ambush from going through, and hopefully giving us time to find the Hellblades in our own time.

----------


## Balthanon

How much faster are our scouts than the caravan?  Given the 20 minutes until we hit a prime ambush standpoint, do our scouts have time to try and find any potential forces and get back to us to report back?

The Hellblades have access to at least some teleportation (albeit, likely not mass teleportion), so there's no guarantee it's the entire force or that there is even a force to be found, but it's probably something we should vet if we have the time.  

If we're going to implement some of the plans derailing the caravan's progress, it may be a bit late even for the method I was planning on using to spook the horses.  That's quite loud and could alert an ambushing force.  Damaging the wagons on the other hand might give us a delay to assess.

----------


## MagneticDragon

Twenty minutes is not much time, and would Tide even know? I guess they might have flown up in order to get a general sense of the surroundings, but that has not been confirmed.

And shall we say we started a mile behind the convoy, but have now moved so we are half a mile behind them? Admittedly, that's still 2640 feet. Which, even if we have 50ft speed and are running, would take thirteen rounds to close the distance between us... but I suppose we could move closer before the actual ambush point.

Either way. It does seem to me that destroying a carriage wheel is the best way to bring the caravan to a halt. Especially as I get the suspicion that the Hellblades might have set up a trap _before_ the obvious ambush point, giving us a few less minutes than we anticipated. I assume that is something that Ferrous will need to say in character?

Though I will admit, the latest posts come across as out of character instead of in character.

----------


## D&DPrinceTandem

> We can put our team name on the title to distinguish our groups until we come together. Sorta like a team name with initials for example like my title.


I suggest this for our team. Given that two members are actual fey and one has lived in the fey world for an extended period of time.
Also, just for clarity's sake, Yohaan has every intention to ally herself with all members (Callen included) of the other team. She believes division creates weakness and the power of unity will win the conflict ahead. She obviously will not intentionally aid any enemies or individual's hostile to said other team, given you guys the benefit of the doubt [The previous event with Callen and the Drow is an exception to this because the first information she received was that Callen was casting a debilitating spell, she could identify the source of hostility.]

----------


## Yas392

> I suggest this for our team. Given that two members are actual fey and one has lived in the fey world for an extended period of time.
> Also, just for clarity's sake, Yohaan has every intention to ally herself with all members (Callen included) of the other team. She believes division creates weakness and the power of unity will win the conflict ahead. She obviously will not intentionally aid any enemies or individual's hostile to said other team, given you guys the benefit of the doubt [The previous event with Callen and the Drow is an exception to this because the first information she received was that Callen was casting a debilitating spell, she could identify the source of hostility.]


I like it. It kind of fits in a natural way (changeling, not DnD version, are fairy children in folk lore). For me, team fey it is.

----------


## Balthanon

> Twenty minutes is not much time, and would Tide even know? I guess they might have flown up in order to get a general sense of the surroundings, but that has not been confirmed.


It was information both parties know, so presumably he'd be aware of the likely ambush point and other information.

Taking out a wheel now would likely be a good approach-- no guarantee it's going to stop them, but it's the least likely to alert them too.

----------


## Novabomb

Cracking a wheel to buy us some time, and then going around the caravan, sounds like a good plan to me.
Then we can see how many are in ambush positions, and if there is a reasonable opportunity to intervene before, during, or after the assault on the caravan.

----------


## MagneticDragon

Myself, Bal and Tide have the ability to fly. Does anyone else have that ability? Because we won't need to go around the caravan in that case.

----------


## niw18

puck can fly and sorry for delay in posting

----------


## MagneticDragon

Sorry for the delay on my end, I don't have any justification for it. Just, haven't got around to doing it.

I will be replying tomorrow however, that much I can promise.

----------


## Dieuoffire

> Quick aside, but DM, is there any chance to change the title of this thread to include 'OOC'? When I am looking at the threads from my Usercp, it's almost impossible to tell which one is which.


I will do that




> No, that is a maybe. 
> 
> *@Dieuoffire* Is there a path that does not require following Ferrous's group but keeping track of them?


Possible but you are tracking the same group. The caravan is moving slowly so you can go to the side or do other things. Sorry to take so long replying.




> Ferrous just lost his advantage with that respond IC.
> 
> Thirded on not requesting sheet. It encourages metagaming and breaks immersion.


I no longer need all the links. I have them copied. We can remove them. I just needed them together to get things organized and started. Sorry to create conflict with that. I did not need the previous one because I already had it. 

As for the group conflict. I do have a 'help' coming. :) I am going to give you guys a small hand.

Mance Rayder, GoT
_"..So, you know how I got moon-worshipers and cannibals and giants to march together in the same army?...I told them we were all going to die..._

You think this "heroes army" group stands a chance? I did the numbers previously so I could just present the "battle." You guys can decide what to do after round 1...

Since each group has not come to a consensus. I will give some more time to plot.

----------


## Dieuoffire

Sorry about the delay in posting. I've had a week I don't want to repeat. It should not happen again.

----------


## Balthanon

> You think this "heroes army" group stands a chance? I did the numbers previously so I could just present the "battle." You guys can decide what to do after round 1...


Pretty sure no one in either group thinks they have a chance in hell. :)

The only real conflict on that front is whether to use them as bait or try and save them.  If half of them are lost before we even make it up there, I suspect Aralis at least will be bowing to pragmatism and just observing as best we can.

----------


## MagneticDragon

Agreed. I do not think that this group will stand a chance in the fight. The plan is to try and stop them from getting ambushed, or at least be close enough to save as many as we can when they do get ambushed.

Even our presence will likely not make a considerable difference. We will not be able to take the Hellblades on in a direct fight, or at least, that's my take on the situation.

----------


## Cassus

Eh, I don't think our party can take them... but the fact that they're going after this group with subterfuge implies that they _need_ some kind of an edge to reliably take them down-- maybe rocks roll in, or wild animals attack in the forest, or the bard switches to a debuffing song unexpectedly, or they just have an ogre mage that wants enemies in tight clusters for fireballs.

Whatever the trick is, if we can spoil it...  it's been established that we're much stronger than anyone in the group except the three probable traitors.  I don't know that the battle would be a foregone conclusion.

----------


## Yas392

> I will do that
> 
> 
> 
> Possible but you are tracking the same group. The caravan is moving slowly so you can go to the side or do other things. Sorry to take so long replying.
> 
> 
> 
> I no longer need all the links. I have them copied. We can remove them. I just needed them together to get things organized and started. Sorry to create conflict with that. I did not need the previous one because I already had it. 
> ...


Oh, Blanc wrote off the "Heroes Army" as a lost cause in her mind. She is more focused on messing with/studying the Hellblades than rescuing the caravan Team Hero is going for. In a way, the two groups are working together. The group conflict is going to resolve by itself through circumstances. It depends on how the scenarios play out as in the battle.

----------


## Cassus

> Oh, Blanc wrote off the "Heroes Army" as a lost cause in her mind. She is more focused on messing with/studying the Hellblades than rescuing the caravan Team Hero is going for. In a way, the two groups are working together. The group conflict is going to resolve by itself through circumstances. It depends on how the scenarios play out as in the battle.


We're Team Shapechanger, actually.

----------


## Balthanon

Knowledge (local) check for whether there are any goblinoids in the region.


Knowledge (local): (1d20+10)[*16*]

----------


## Cassus

Holding off on posting IC until I hear back from the GM about scouting.

In the meantime, would those in disguise mind rolling Disguise?  I want to know if Tide will recognize y'all on return. :D

----------


## LairdMaon

Huh, Callen has no shapechanging nor disguise ability. He is as you see him.

----------


## Yas392

> We're Team Shapechanger, actually.


I see your characters' group as Team Hero because they prioritize the lives of Anwar's "followers."

----------


## Novabomb

I think both names are a bit of a misnomer.
2/5 cannot shapechange, and 2/5 do not really prioritize the caravan's health above the final task.

I elected to have Toboruk run ahead as I was under the impression that hes the most likely to fall behind given he has no special transport modes, and is not fast.  He wants to be in a position to at least see the hellblades.

----------


## MagneticDragon

> In the meantime, would those in disguise mind rolling Disguise?  I want to know if Tide will recognize y'all on return. :D


That's... actually a good question. While Ferrous did not mean to disguise himself from the scout, it is an issue that might come up.

Tide will, of course, be able to talk to those who are not able to shapeshift, but that does mean he would avoid those that have if he isn't able to figure them out. And shapeshifting like this does give a pretty big disguise bonus. So...

*Disguse* - (1d20+12)[*18*]

----------


## Balthanon

> I think both names are a bit of a misnomer.
> 2/5 cannot shapechange, and 2/5 do not really prioritize the caravan's health above the final task.
> 
> I elected to have Toboruk run ahead as I was under the impression that hes the most likely to fall behind given he has no special transport modes, and is not fast.  He wants to be in a position to at least see the hellblades.


Yeah, I was under the impression that everyone left could shapechange, so that was a mistake on my part.  (Missed Callen entirely somehow too.)

Team Majority? :)

I also don't think we want to split up too much; if Toburuk and Callen don't have any means of enhanced travel and are falling behind, I might have Aralis offer to assume form that can be ridden and travel more quickly.  I'll have to do some digging to find something that both could ride potentially though-- how much do they appear to weigh?

----------


## Yas392

> I think both names are a bit of a misnomer.
> 2/5 cannot shapechange, and 2/5 do not really prioritize the caravan's health above the final task.
> 
> I elected to have Toboruk run ahead as I was under the impression that hes the most likely to fall behind given he has no special transport modes, and is not fast.  He wants to be in a position to at least see the hellblades.


I am basing the name off the direction of the group sprung from the decision of the majority.

----------


## LairdMaon

See? All this "team name" stuff could have been avoided if we went with Brad and Janet like I suggested, lol! 

Callen looks to weigh about 200lbs. The warforged arms and chain contributed to that.

----------


## MagneticDragon

FYI, in case it's not actually clear. But Ferrous' limited experience in these matters (which I decided was fitting considering I have been slow to post on multiple occasions) has him panicking a little. He does not have a plan at the moment beyond 'get close enough to hopefully save some lives'. 

Assuming he is capable of closing the distance, and his companion is capable of arriving in time (which I'm honestly unsure about or not. Tempted to ask for a roll to figure out if Ghost will catch up or not). Ferrous will most likely calm down and be able to plan more effectively. But currently, he simply wants to be close enough and is not exactly thinking of the others.

----------


## Cassus

@GM-- Given how quickly Tide moves, does he make it back with scouting results before Team Majority Is Shapechangers needs to decide on an approach?  And what are his scouting results?

----------


## Balthanon

> But currently, he simply wants to be close enough and is not exactly thinking of the others.


Worse comes to worse, Aralis will catch up and ask him to hold on a bit.

----------


## MagneticDragon

> Worse comes to worse, Aralis will catch up and ask him to hold on a bit.


Aye. There is always that. He is open to discussion. Just, worried over the window of time they have, and desperate to not mess up and allow several lives to be lost.

----------


## Dieuoffire

> Knowledge (local) check for whether there are any goblinoids in the region.
> 
> 
> Knowledge (local): [roll0]


the region has goblinoids in it but they are not a very near presence or very influential. 

@everyone

Ok Tired looking how to change the OoC thread name. Can't find it. Sorry for the Noob question but every site I game on is different, Where is the control panel for changing a thread or is that an admin thing?

----------


## Dieuoffire

Sorry to double post but 
@niw18
your rolls did not go through as they had an extra space in them so it did not recognize it.
Also We have a house rule combining move silent and hide into stealth. one roll is just fine.

@MagneticDragon
Your mount will catch up, you called it soon after leaving town. you have gone a few miles. it should easily make it. 

The disguises [i]would[/] work against Tide as well as other allies who don't know; just be careful. Also your changes take only about a round I thought. You will easily be transformed before Tide leaves sight of you. So Tide, if he was paying attention, would see you. 

hopefully I did not miss anything I don't want to be rude and triple post.

----------


## Cassus

To change the thread name, you'd need to go back to your first post and edit the Title there.  That's also how you change the thread prefix.

Also, @team Majority Shapechangers, I'm still here-- just trading PMs with the GM!

----------


## MagneticDragon

> @MagneticDragon
> Your mount will catch up, you called it soon after leaving town. you have gone a few miles. it should easily make it. 
> 
> The disguises [i]would[/] work against Tide as well as other allies who don't know; just be careful. Also your changes take only about a round I thought. You will easily be transformed before Tide leaves sight of you. So Tide, if he was paying attention, would see you.


Animal Companion, not Mount. But thank you. I was not sure how to decide things.

Ghost' presence will undoubtedly help calm Ferrous down. Though I think Tide might not have spotted the change, as Ferrous transformed _after_ they had gone on ahead.

----------


## D&DPrinceTandem

I'm still here, very for Yohaan to do or react to so she's just waiting for Puck to return with info/ traveling with Blanc.

----------


## Yas392

So Puck is the lure?

----------


## D&DPrinceTandem

> So Puck is the lure?


 


> "I could go unseen and scout to better ourselves so we can make a better plan"


 I took this as Puck is going to gather information and we will revise our plan based on his intelligence. I still intend for Yohaan to be the lure  :Small Smile: .

----------


## Yas392

> I took this as Puck is going to gather information and we will revise our plan based on his intelligence. I still intend for Yohaan to be the lure .


He kind of made himself into one with the wolf sniffing his scent. Hopefully, Yohaan can draw aggro to herself or Puck lure them to Blanc's field.

----------


## niw18

(1d20+21)[*28*] to hide

(1d20+21)[*38*] to move siliently

stealth rolls

----------


## Cassus

@Dieuoffire -- if we have questions we need to resolve to post, is it better to PM you or post here in the OOC?

----------


## Dieuoffire

@cassus
Thank you
@Magnetic Dragon
Animal companion, sorry. It arrives none the less.
Possible transformation problems noted.
@niw18
I should have checked both threads before posting IC. Did not see your rolls; Will update IC. You only need one stealth roll. both skills combined into one. I am taking the first rolls as it came first.
@Cassus
Either is fine.

----------


## Dieuoffire

Trained Wolves and dire wolves attempting to figure out where you are. Will use two rolls, one for each group similar to Ogres.

*worgs 1* - (1d20+7)[*8*]
*worgs 2* - (1d20+7)[*13*]
*wolves 1* - (1d20+7)[*27*]
*wolves 2* - (1d20+7)[*16*]

----------


## Yas392

*@Dieuoffire* They are also using the distraction/potential combat scenario to studying the enemy.

----------


## Cassus

Perception vs Disguise: (1d20+10)[*29*]

----------


## Balthanon

Sorry about the lack of replies; have had some stuff I needed to take care of recently that hasn't given me much time and this is one of the things that fell off my plate-- might still be a day or two before I'm able to really catch up.

----------


## Cassus

What number/type/position did Tide see for the monsters?

----------


## Dieuoffire

So between the Ogres detecting something that might be invisible and the caravan slowing down the Ogres will react quickly. I assume that everyone understands that in a world with invisibility if you suspected something invisible moved through your ambush site then your target began slowing down before reaching you the conclusion would be obvious. 

I don't want to miss anyone who wants to do something so just if you are going to do something please respond soon.

----------


## MagneticDragon

Considering that they slowed down before Tide got back, I'm going to be editing my post slightly.

----------


## MagneticDragon

My apologies for the double post, but I wanted to ensure this post was not missed.

I thought the caravan was not currently inside the forest, and as they are slowing down, along with the orges believing there was an invisible creature nearby, they would not end up inside the forest at all?

----------


## Novabomb

My understanding is that pretty much the entire path has been in the woods.

----------


## Cassus

No, the ogres are in the woods, and that's what we scouted, but the carvan is still a couple minutes from the forest.

----------


## Dieuoffire

there have been patches of trees/woods along the trail, but the one right in front of the caravan is slightly thicker, also it runs in a ravine between two wooded hills. 

And the caravan will stop before going into the wooded area. For how long or what the response to this action will be is up to you to decide.

----------


## MagneticDragon

Figured that was the case.

Sorry for not posting, I had been waiting for Balthanon to reply. Not sure how much forward I can take events without an answer from the entire party. But I suppose I should at least post something tomorrow.

----------


## Yas392

How high up the air is Yohaan atm?

----------


## Cassus

I know Yohaan said she'd draw attention and lit up...  Is she visible enough that the rest of us can see her heading toward the battle, or is she still too far off/behind the hills?

----------


## D&DPrinceTandem

> I know Yohaan said she'd draw attention and lit up...  Is she visible enough that the rest of us can see her heading toward the battle, or is she still too far off/behind the hills?


Probably a question directed towards Dieuoffire but from what I know
1) Yohaan is shining as bright as a full grown human sized candle and her eyes are glowing brightly. Lowlight vision would effectively see this as doubly as bright. 
2) Realistically her clothes would also be shedding light as per the light spell (20ft bright light, +20ft shadowy illumination)
3) She is making no attempt to conceal herself
4) She will be (when she starts moving) flying at her maximum possible speed (90ft flight speed by spending 5 SfEL) to reach the baddies. Running (FRA) would put her at around 40 mph. For reference, an unencumbered Human is assumed to be able to run at 14 mph. A Light Horse runs at a top speed (by D&D standards) of 34mph


@Dieuoffire; Is this all happening in the span of ~6 seconds?

----------


## Yas392

> How high up the air is Yohaan atm?


@D&DPrinceTandem Still waiting for this answer. Need to know before I follow up with a post to position Blanc.

----------


## D&DPrinceTandem

> @D&DPrinceTandem Still waiting for this answer. Need to know before I follow up with a post to position Blanc.


ah missed that, sry
when speaking to others it can be assumed she brings herself to level with them unless stated otherwise. When we "move out" she will begin below the treeline, maybe 15ft above the ground [high enough to be out of reach of medium creatures, low enough to be noticeable by ground-based combatants]

Hindsight, Yohaan should probably use Reserves of Restoration on you two (it's like a dormant healing effect that you can activate as a swift action). 

If all are okay (and don't think it's too metagame-ee) these would be those rolls

Blanc - (5d6+5)[*22*]
Puck - (5d6+5)[*20*]

You can only use it once, so over healing will be a waste. Each of you would have also been given 15 temp hp as well

----------


## LairdMaon

Assuming a 30' walk, how many rounds would it take for Callen to run into the fight? 
Same question; different destination: the enemy cadence caller?

----------


## Dieuoffire

@cassus
Is a flying torch visible? Very much so.

@D&Dprincetandem
If Yohaan wants to reach the group going at all out speed, probably <2 rounds. a full round plus a move would be appropriate. (Meaning charging is possible.)
I did not want to break this up between days of posts so I condensed it into one. The actual time table goes like this

Rounds
1 The singing starts. Those in the caravan, hear it and prep to jump out of wagons, a few casters cast a spell
2 The Ogres begin their charge, ending their round 15 feet from the line. Those in the caravan jump out and form up battle positions
3 The ogres move in. Carnage begins.
You all have 2 rounds to prep. You did say however that you wanted to see the Hellblades fight first to assess their abilities. BUT I will assume that you where all on the move once the singer started. (casting or moving or whatever.) 

Your characters probably thought it would take longer than 1 round for so many to die so I assumed they would not step in before the Ogres actually hit the caravan. 

Yohaan can use this time to cast her Reserves on the others. then use two singe move actions making her need just one full round action to get there.

@LairdMaon
A run on a trail means no hindering terrain. At the end of 3 rounds of running (starting from time of singing, you would be 10 feet away from the back of the caravan, or about 50 ft from the front (fighting).

@everyone
Good luck and remember there are still as many or more not seen as seen.

----------


## MagneticDragon

Mrrr, that's what I get for not posting sooner I suppose. Don't have time to put my plan into motion before the battle starts. 

Then again, did we have time in the first place? I was confident that we had enough time, but both Cassus and Nova, or at least, their characters, seemed quite convinced they would not have enough time to start a forest fire. Which one was actually correct? Or is the fact that the battle is starting right now the answer to the lack of time we actually had?

----------


## Novabomb

Did Toboruk encounter or detect any of the remaining hidden forces when he advanced?

----------


## Dieuoffire

@MagneticDragon

Things changed that is why.
When the ghost tiger showed up and the characters transformed that made the caravan stop. when invisible oppoents were detected that made the Ogres change tactics. the time that you had of the caravan moving was replaced by a shorter amount of time of the Ogres charging (a slow caravan crawling forward vs. charging large creatures). maybe if there was no change you could have started one. That however was not the case. both groups reacted to actions that had been taken and that changed the dynamic. 

I gave fair warning that NPCs would reeact to your actions. Both choices, Caravan and Ogres, seem to fall in line with what I estimate each entities understanding to be. 

So I guess the short answer would be you had enough time, then other actions changed that. Then you did not have enough time.

@Novabomb
No you did not detect any more. Your advancement however is from behind the caravan and the Ogres came from in front of the caravan. So unless the Hellblades circled around at an alarming speed they would not be very close to you at all. 

@everyone

I am going to assume that nobody is doing long range assault. I  am also assuming only Yohann is going to be in the middle of the action before 4th round? 

Yohann will be casting/moving twice then full round moving so as to entre the area on the 3rd round. 

is that all correct?

Lastly this was asked and I forgot to answer it. The bard type character is about 100 feet behind the Ogres. The bard is very near the treeline and only has two Dire wolf protectors, that you can see at this time anyway.

----------


## Cassus

Sorry about the delay in posting.  Tide would be moving towards the conflict while invisible, though you're correct that he wouldn't engage before the ogres hit the line.  Man, like a knife through water!

----------


## Yas392

Blanc will definitely attack when the Ogres are distracted.

----------


## MagneticDragon

Hmmm, I see. So we _had_ a chance to stop the attack from happening. But due to the differences in post-rate, and the subsequent miscommunication this created, we were not able to stop the attack in time.

Ferrous is going to remember this. And he will be making attacks, I'll make my post today of him attacking even at the start of the fight.

----------


## Yas392

Going to get a post in later today.

----------


## D&DPrinceTandem

> @everyone
> 
> I am going to assume that nobody is doing long range assault. I  am also assuming only Yohann is going to be in the middle of the action before 4th round? 
> 
> Yohann will be casting/moving twice then full round moving so as to entre the area on the 3rd round. 
> 
> is that all correct?


Yes I will be in the fray at rnd 3

Notable passive senses
Magical Sensory: LoS Range Detect Magic (Rnd 1&2 effect passive)
RoSb: 60ft auto sense spell being cast, Check DC 15+SL to identify the Spell.

By the Time she reaches the Action, this should be her statblock
*Spoiler: StatBlock: Yohaan*
Show

*Yohaan, The Whitefire Lily*
Genderless NG Changeling Spellfire Adapt *Level* 9, *Init* 3, *HP* 69+15thp/69, *Speed* 40ft; 90ft flying (perf manv.) 
*AC* 18, *Touch* 18, *Flat-footed* 15,  (+3 Dex, +5 Misc)
*Fort* 11, *Ref* 9, *Will* 11, 
*Base Attack Bonus* +4.5, 
*Spellfire Energy levels* 42/20 [Tier 3]
*Vital Shot Spellfire ([ranged touch attack])*  +9 ([x]d6+x, x2)
*Gauntlet Dagger (+3 Bane [Giant] Dagger of Seeking)*  +7 (1d4+7, 19-20/x2) [+9 atk vs Giants] [+2d6 dmg vs Giants]
*Abilities* Str 10, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
*Condition* Spellfire Techniques depicted in stats
Spellfire Protection (5 SfEL) 9 minutes remaining
Spellfire Resistance (5 SfEL) 9 minutes remaining
Spellfire Flight (5 SfEL)  7 rnds remaining

Options
[Free Action] Channel Spellfire; Spend X, gain +X to attack rolls, gain +Xd4 to damage rolls, lasts 1 rnd

Are we rolling Initiative?
If So
Yohaan Init: (1d20+3)[*9*]

----------


## MagneticDragon

I'll throw up my own initiative as well, just to be on the safe side.

(1d20+10)[*23*].

----------


## Novabomb

I thought Tob would be closing more from the side than behind, but yes rapid encirclement was something I was concerned about.  How quickly can he make it to the battlefield? I can have speed 30 if it is still pretty far.

----------


## Yas392

*Initiative:* (1d20+7)[*9*]

----------


## Dieuoffire

> Hmmm, I see. So we _had_ a chance to stop the attack from happening. But due to the differences in post-rate, and the subsequent miscommunication this created, we were not able to stop the attack in time.
> 
> Ferrous is going to remember this. And he will be making attacks, I'll make my post today of him attacking even at the start of the fight.


More due to actions. Post rate aside, those who where scouting aroused the Ogres suspicions. The appearance of the tiger and the changes to appearances, while all of you were still satisfied to wait, made the caravan react. The caravan reaction also made the Ogres react. 

The tiger was summoned a while ago. Everyone had plenty of time to post since he first started calling the Tiger. So the loss of time I don't really think was due to post rate. It was due to the unexpected reaction of the NPCs. was there an action you would have liked to have taken before the scouting happened? Or after the scouting but before the Ogres reacted? If you want an action after the singing started but before the combatants actually clashed we could still handle that. I did allow others to say what they where doing in that time. But considering the distance between yourselves and the caravan, without some kind of magical speed/location help you would not reach the combat prior to round 3 or 4. That assumes an unencumbered all out run (30ft base) BTW.

let me know if I missed something.




> Yes I will be in the fray at rnd 3
> 
> Notable passive senses
> Magical Sensory: LoS Range Detect Magic (Rnd 1&2 effect passive)
> RoSb: 60ft auto sense spell being cast, Check DC 15+SL to identify the Spell.
> 
> 
> Are we rolling Initiative?
> If So
> Yohaan Init: [roll0]


I assume each of those spellfire abilities (protection, resistance, flight) took a standard action to make, meaning you were only able to take a standard flight action forward each round, so you will be slightly away form combat to begin with. (you will be 390-270=120 ft away, fly of 90 means you could take a charge action to join combat on round 4)

Your detect magic will tell you that one of the Ogres possesses significantly more magic than the others. the leader (you assume) has magic sword, armor, bow, something on their waist, something on their feet and something around their neck. 

the others just have sword, armor, waist, feet, (missing neck and bow)
The robe/overcoat conceals a lot so you don't see exactly what each small item is, just flashes of auras; swords, bow and armor is obvious.




> I thought Tob would be closing more from the side than behind, but yes rapid encirclement was something I was concerned about.  How quickly can he make it to the battlefield? I can have speed 30 if it is still pretty far.


well you were 350 feet from the caravan. then there is about 40 feet to where the fighting actually is. so 390 feet from start to finish in a straight line. running at speed 30 or 120 ft per round would mean that at the end of 3 rds of all out running you are 30 ft away. if you want to arc that to approach from the side you would not be on the trail and you would be adding significant distance for the arc. you would probably arrive at the end of round 5.  

@everyone
In order to avoid miscommunication I think I will try to make a PDF map and attach that to the thread. I will try to keep it low graphics to make loading it easier. I am assuming

1. the fey group will be about 350 feet away from the caravan too. but they going to be more to the side as flight is an option.

2. Tob is going to go straight in. 

3. nobody wants to hit before the Ogres demonstrate their combat prowess.

4. You are all going to hurry As fast as you can. If you get their before the ogres hit, you are waiting/watching to see how the first round of attacks goes. Round 2 I will not be assuming anything

The map will be an estimate to start with. Exact positioning is a guess for me Until everyone posts back and says "sure"
once we have everyone in agreement, then I will assume it to be exactly accurate. (tactical combat) 

Please nobody panic if I initially don't have your character in exactly the right place. 

Lastly I will also have up initiative, in the main thread. If you have not posted it, please do so. 

As I did the whole combat between the two sides previously I am just going to post their initiative IC and move on. the ogres did Ok the caravan actually did not do so well.

----------


## D&DPrinceTandem

> I assume each of those spellfire abilities (protection, resistance, flight) took a standard action to make, meaning you were only able to take a standard flight action forward each round, so you will be slightly away form combat to begin with. (you will be 390-270=120 ft away, fly of 90 means you could take a charge action to join combat on round 4)
> 
> In order to avoid miscommunication I think I will try to make a PDF map and attach that to the thread. I will try to keep it low graphics to make loading it easier. I am assuming
> 
> 1. the fey group will be about 350 feet away from the caravan too. but they going to be more to the side as flight is an option.
> 3. nobody wants to hit before the Ogres demonstrate their combat prowess.


Each of those are swift action abilities, of which two already have 3 minutes deducted from there duration, the last, Spellfire Flight is a 1 minute duration.

If Yohaan can sense the magical superiority and abnormal amounts of magic on the trolls she has no need to wait for the Orges to demonstrate their power.

Rnd 1: Swift: Spellfire Flight, Standard: Give Blanc her pre-emptive healing, Move; 90ft with Puck in hand [260ft away]
Rnd 2: Standard: Give Puck his pre-emptive healing, Move: 90ft [170ft away]
Rnd 3: Swift Action: Summon +3 Bane [Giant] Dagger of Seeking, Full Round Action: Charge and attack lead Orge [180ft of movement should bring me intro range during the carnage], Free action [Channel Spellfire (5)] lasts 1 rnd
Rnd 4: get pummeled (probably.)

I'll post IC to describe this but Attack and Damage Roll just in case I crit fail (which I will gladly describe in depth lol)
*+3 Giant's bane Dagger of Seeking* 
Attack Roll - (1d20+16)[*24*]
Damage Rolls
[]Weapon Dmg - [roll1d4+9[/roll]
[]Bane Bonus - (2d6)[*6*]
[]Channel Spellfire - (5d4)[*10*]
Critical: 19-20/x2
Damage Type: Magical(+3, +5 vs Giant) Piercing

----------


## Yas392

*@Dieuoffire* Blanc has 80 ft Fly speed (Good Maneuverability). Can you give me your name on myth-weavers so I can allow you access?

----------


## D&DPrinceTandem

Rolling the Botched Dmg roll
(1d4+9)[*11*]

----------


## Novabomb

I think the main thing that confused people on team majority, is that it is not clear what the timing (and distance) between the caravan getting hit, and Tide returning with info.  I think that most assumed some amount of min, rather than rounds.

My comments about coming from the side was the assumption of going off trail and and securing the flank before the action took place.  It is clear to me now, that there was not time for that, around the same time that Tide was providing info, the drums were starting up.

So yes, running forward is the order of the day, and he will maybe be able to do something on round 4.
Additionally, now that we have a better idea of distances, after Tide provided his info, before Ferrous finished the planning, I would like Tob to have manifested force screen (lasts 2 min from then)

Reposting link (It is not private):
https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2678286
(In case the speed is unclear, unfettered movement stance increases his speed by 10) (I left his base speed documented at 20, since I expect him in the other stance more of the time)

----------


## Yas392

*@Dieuoffire* Need confirmation on whether Blanc can use a 180 ft cone based shape without affecting Yohaan or allies. If not, Blanc will use a different attack.

----------


## Cassus

@Dieuoffire Tide is kind've an experiment for me-- position-based builds always seemed pretty tricky to me to do in a PbP format.  Thanks for making the map; that will be a big help!
To be clear, Tide is airborne, occupies a 15' space, and reaches 30' beyond that space... at least this round.  Just position him wherever seems good on the map.

----------


## MagneticDragon

Hmmm, quite a bit to reply here it seems.

First of all, to answer your questions Dieuoffire. Ferrous has transformed into a Varag using Humanoid Shape, and they possess a 60ft movement speed. Allowing me to cover 240 feet with the 'Run' action, being that 60ft x 4 = 240ft. Secondly, the penalty for range increments is actually a mistake on my part, as I thought it was only -1 when it is, as you said, -2. Despite this, Ferrous is still going to make his attacks against the singer.

And now that I think about it. What check would I make to identify the music being used? From both the Orges and the Caravan?

Secondly. Novabomb is correct. When Tide was reporting back with the knowledge that the Orges had been spooked. I believed we had several minutes of action that we could potentially take. Allowing us to potentially enact a plan to try and gain an advantage before the battle began, such as starting a forest fire. Instead, it turned out we had only a handful of seconds, taking me completely by surprise and wondering why we went from having minutes to seconds. 

Third. The lack of post rate resulted in Tide going into the forest to scout, instead of sabotaging the caravan by destroying a wheel or something similar, as we had initially planned. At least, that is why I believe Cassus had Tide abruptly leave and fly on ahead again while we were still planning what to do, and ended up cutting the time we had to potentially prevent the ambush from happening in the slightest down to nearly nothing. 

I believe that addresses everything.

----------


## LairdMaon

With the chaos of a split party of veritable strangers, I'm neither shocked nor dismayed that combat was engaged. Keeping track of everyone doing their own thing has got to be hellish. 

That said: Initiative
(1d20+1)[*8*]

----------


## Dieuoffire

@D&DPrinceTandem
I never claimed to be perfect. With swift actions you will be able to start combat basically anywhere and be able to join anytime after watching the Ogres and caravan do their thing. So an attack at the end of Rd 3 if fine.

That attack is a miss. BUT you would notice it was close.

@yas392
Surprisingly enough I hate having lots of different names so Dieuoffire is actually my name there too.

@novabomb
I see, I apologize for timing I thought I had posted something on that with one of my posts and now I cannot find it. hmm. Well that is rather embarrassing. 

Indeed I meant to mention that Tides return was almost at the time of action. The Ogres made an impatient decision. (I realize there are contradictory things in their decision making, and that is part of the story.)

Manifesting it when you hear the drums is well within reason. 

@yas392
That depends upon where characters want to be placed. My initial guess will be no however since by round 2 multiple characters are going to be close to the action. But the Map will be up soon. We will double check. I am going toa slo assume that tide is going to be within striking range making the 180 foot cone dangerous to him too.
I will say that without a doubt you would hit NPCs, possibly killing several yourself.

@magneticdragon
Varag, that explains the move. Sorry I thought you said you looked like one. Now that I think about it with this many shape changers I should start assuming you ARE one. (physically at least)
So 490 -240 puts you at a -4 (or an additional -3)
If you have up detect magic that would help but the roll would be a spellcraft roll. 
I apologize for my timing mistake. I see that I confused many.

@ lairdMaon
Thank you for your understanding

@Everyone
I made some mistakes here for timing. I also accidentally did not post something I mean to. Both mistakes are mine. I however have a bright side to this. I am of the mindset that being willing to learn beats making mistakes every time. I hope with your patience and my willingness to adapt and take advise that this campaign can go from a rocky start at the bottom of the mountain to a awesome conclusion at the summit, over time of course. 

If you will allow me to learn from mistakes, I will never take constructive criticism as a personal attack.
Map forthcoming, just giving me a problem as every time I get on the forum I go Ah that explains it and I must move PCs.

----------


## Novabomb

No worries, and once I see the map I will issue Toboruk's action for round 4.

----------


## Yas392

*@Dieuoffire* Added you to give you access. I will wait until the map is up then tell you Blanc's placement and attack.

----------


## D&DPrinceTandem

> @D&DPrinceTandem
> I never claimed to be perfect. With swift actions you will be able to start combat basically anywhere and be able to join anytime after watching the Ogres and caravan do their thing. So an attack at the end of Rd 3 if fine.
> 
> That attack is a miss. BUT you would notice it was close.
> 
> @Everyone
> I made some mistakes here for timing. I also accidentally did not post something I mean to. Both mistakes are mine. I however have a bright side to this. I am of the mindset that being willing to learn beats making mistakes every time. I hope with your patience and my willingness to adapt and take advise that this campaign can go from a rocky start at the bottom of the mountain to a awesome conclusion at the summit, over time of course. 
> 
> If you will allow me to learn from mistakes, I will never take constructive criticism as a personal attack.
> Map forthcoming, just giving me a problem as every time I get on the forum I go Ah that explains it and I must move PCs.


Ah, sry if that came off as snarky or from any malice, this was not intentional and will never be the way I intend to come across. Should note that so long as I could see them, I can attack something from 800ft away (in 'murican terms that would be over 2 football fields) without moving. Although with an AC greater than 24 I would be hard press on anything I don't charge (+2) and have a +3 Bane weapon for (+5), worse if I'm not channeling Spellfire at max (+5 atk).. yea also doesn't help that I rolled a FREAKING 8... but C'est la vie  :Small Tongue: . Just time to await the death that should come quick (only half sarcasm because I don't trust what more than 3 Orges who definingly possess buffs, levels, and magic items if they all decided (rightfully so) to smash the lighting bug that just ran in yelling obscenities in their native tongue and tried to take their buddies left eye.

Also, ah well tried my best (will post sometime tonight.. or tomorrow given the lateness lol)

----------


## Dieuoffire

Ok so I have a map, basic for easy load/download. but it will not let me attach it.
am I missing something?

----------


## D&DPrinceTandem

> Ok so I have a map, basic for easy load/download. but it will not let me attach it.
> am I missing something?


I've never done such a thing before, are you able to put it on the site Here and just link it to us? (if that would be easier, for you, seeing how you where able to input a map there.)
honestly, i didn't even know you could upload things on these forums lol

----------


## MagneticDragon

Rolling Miss Chance

*Attack 2* - (1d100)[*7*]
*Attack 3* - (1d100)[*68*]
*Attack 4* - (1d100)[*90*]




> Ok so I have a map, basic for easy load/download. but it will not let me attach it.
> am I missing something?


Maybe try uploading it to Google Documents and then sharing the link?




> @magneticdragon
> Varag, that explains the move. Sorry I thought you said you looked like one. Now that I think about it with this many shape changers I should start assuming you ARE one. (physically at least)


Indeed, that is quite likely a smart choice.




> If you have up detect magic that would help but the roll would be a spellcraft roll.


*Spellcraft* - (1d20+15)[*34*]




> I apologize for my timing mistake. I see that I confused many.


No worries, it's a minor mistake, and it does not change matters too much.

----------


## Cassus

(moved from the other thread, whoops!)

So... Feel free to let me know if there's something in play here that I have no way of knowing about, but I want to be 100% sure that they can get past all of Tide's stealth defenses.

He has invisibility, of course.
Overcoming it with divination magic (like, say, See Invisibility) requires a caster level check (DC 24).
Even if the invisibility is negated, a perception check still needs to be rolled vs his stealth.
His stealth applies even vs blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense.

Can they still see him?

If they can, does Tide -know- they can see him (do they react to the sudden appearance of a giant human with a dragon's arm overhead)?

Also, he's currently size Huge (I -wish- he could go colossal). I put it in his OOC spoiler; should I mention it IC as well? Or (given how frequently Tide's and I expect others' stats will be changing) are there any values you'd like us to give in a "running stat block" in a spoiler in each post?

----------


## Yas392

*@Dieuoffire* If she can see the Ogres from 100 ft away then yeah. Would it make a difference if the cone is directed downwards to not affect Yohaan or used 180 ft away (and also directed downwards)?

----------


## Dieuoffire

> Ah, sry if that came off as snarky or from any malice, this was not intentional and will never be the way I intend to come across. Should note that so long as I could see them, I can attack something from 800ft away (in 'murican terms that would be over 2 football fields) without moving. Although with an AC greater than 24 I would be hard press on anything I don't charge (+2) and have a +3 Bane weapon for (+5), worse if I'm not channeling Spellfire at max (+5 atk).. yea also doesn't help that I rolled a FREAKING 8... but C'est la vie . Just time to await the death that should come quick (only half sarcasm because I don't trust what more than 3 Orges who definingly possess buffs, levels, and magic items if they all decided (rightfully so) to smash the lighting bug that just ran in yelling obscenities in their native tongue and tried to take their buddies left eye.
> 
> Also, ah well tried my best (will post sometime tonight.. or tomorrow given the lateness lol)


You did ask to be the Focus of their attention. 




> I've never done such a thing before, are you able to put it on the site Here and just link it to us? (if that would be easier, for you, seeing how you where able to input a map there.)
> honestly, i didn't even know you could upload things on these forums lol


Problem is that I don't want those players confused by a sudden map and high level combat.



> Rolling Miss Chance
> 
> [roll0]
> [roll1]
> [roll2]
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe try uploading it to Google Documents and then sharing the link?
> ...


So the final two attacks hit.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/155f...ew?usp=sharing
you may have to download it, it forced me to use a weird way of uploading it. Hope it works. it is basically a image of a excel sheet. (useful for saying I move from square d5 to d25) and it is super simplified. it is only for tactical movement, not looks. but this way it uses minimal space.




> (moved from the other thread, whoops!)
> 
> So... Feel free to let me know if there's something in play here that I have no way of knowing about, but I want to be 100% sure that they can get past all of Tide's stealth defenses.
> 
> He has invisibility, of course.
> Overcoming it with divination magic (like, say, See Invisibility) requires a caster level check (DC 24).
> Even if the invisibility is negated, a perception check still needs to be rolled vs his stealth.
> His stealth applies even vs blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense.
> 
> ...


Their "see invis" is not a spell but an auto success. 
I did not know you avoided those things. that could make a difference.
However, Did you adjust the roll for your new size? Going from very small to huge changes your modifier a lot. Also do you have a hide in plain site ability? there is no cover in the air. (Huge is -8 on stealth, Diminutive is +12, total of +20 difference in your stealth.) 

You might not know if they see you. They have full face masking helms with designed monster faces on them (think samurai masks but more D&D demonic). it depends upon 

Running stat blocks in spoilers would be nice, I am trying my best but running 8 characters who are all non-standard and have custom abilities is very hard to keep track of. 




> *@Dieuoffire* If she can see the Ogres from 100 ft away then yeah. Would it make a difference if the cone is directed downwards to not affect Yohaan or used 180 ft away (and also directed downwards)?


well Tide wanted to reach them all, and the only way to do that is to have Tide near the center of the group. You will not be able to reach them all. Wait for the map, if it works you can say 'Ah that makes sense'

please remember the NPC good guys had no idea you where coming so when they surrounded the Ogres, it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Also for those who can see invisibility, the three who lead this doomed endeavor have a look of surprise on their faces. it is easy to tell this is not what they were expecting.

At the rist of repeating myself I am going to be posting a lot of this that should be IC on the IC thread.

----------


## Cassus

@DM:
What information would be useful to you in a running statblock?  AC and HP, saves, size, current appearance, perception modifier?

What is the ogres' apparent reach?

Tide's initiative is 6 (It's in the OOC spoiler in the combat post).  He's flying 30' up rather than 10' up.  I didn't adjust his stealth for size.
My understanding is that invisibility grants total concealment, which is sufficient to hide.  Ordinarily, blindsight (etc) would make invisibility irrelevant, but as it stands with Darkstalker the blindsighted need to roll just like anyone else would to see an invisible character (the darkstalker knows how to mask their scent, etc).

I know that the ogres have higher initiative than Tide (stupid natural 1).  Does that mean that in this round (round 3?) the ogres spent their action killing heroes and Tide spent his action moving into position?  Or did Tide get in position last round and he needs to declare a new action this round?

Also, it might be a quibble, but if they're wearing classical helms with narrow eyelets, it's REALLY obvious what they're staring at (at least between "up" and "in front").  Granted, if they have a sense that doesn't emanate in a line from their eyes then all bets are off.


@Party:
Also, just as a reminder to everyone, Tide is currently in humanoid form (The image on the map is from when he unwinds a bit more).  No need to change the token, though.

Is anyone good at the talky stuff?  I feel like a giant voice from overhead yelling, *"The woman with the flaming sword is on your side!  Form a wedge!"* might be counterproductive.

----------


## D&DPrinceTandem

@Dieuoffire: Your response abt wanting attention is neither wrong nor inadequete lol.

@Cassus: Note'd, I'll do a short post for Yohaan, though I am play Yohaan as tactically ignorant (having no want nor need to gain knowledge of war) [partially because I don't want to use personal expertise in something that my character would not have.] So she may more likely tell them to flee (in a tactical manner of course)..

----------


## niw18

A lot of action  sorry worked  two days   9 + hours I will post in the third round  asap

----------


## Yas392

> well Tide wanted to reach them all, and the only way to do that is to have Tide near the center of the group. You will not be able to reach them all. Wait for the map, if it works you can say 'Ah that makes sense'
> 
> please remember the NPC good guys had no idea you where coming so when they surrounded the Ogres, it seemed like a good idea at the time.
> 
> Also for those who can see invisibility, the three who lead this doomed endeavor have a look of surprise on their faces. it is easy to tell this is not what they were expecting.
> 
> At the rist of repeating myself I am going to be posting a lot of this that should be IC on the IC thread.


Not sure how Tide is relevant if Blanc is going before him.

----------


## MagneticDragon

8 Damage. 8. Measly damage.

Seems I will have to spend actions moving in close in order to make use of my splash weapons. But wow, do I need a way to increase the range of my alchemical items. They currently have a max of 50ft, and that gives me a -10 penalty to attack rolls with them as well. I wish there was an alchemical arrow item I could make, sacrificing some of the damage of my alchemical items in order to gain increased range.

Maybe it's something that Ferrous himself could create, afterwards? Or is there a special type of thrower that can be used with alchemical items to give them extra range?

Oh and Dieuoffire. Two things. 

First, the spellcraft was against the Bardic Music being sung, not the Displacement effect. Ferrous is expecting 'Anwar' to not be using Inspire Courage after all. 

Secondly. If you are basically using an excel sheet, google drive is acting weird. Perhaps it might be easier to simply make a Google Sheet for the map, and give us permission to look at that instead?

----------


## Novabomb

As now, it may become relevant, I would like to fluff Toboruk's cuts as not the result of the blade making contact with his opponent but a bit farther beyond the blade. (At least when making use of a psionic feat).
"It is the mind that cuts, the sword is merely a focus"

----------


## Cassus

"I do not cut with my sword.  He who cuts with his sword has forgotten the face of his father.  I cut with my mind."

----------


## Dieuoffire

> @DM:
> What information would be useful to you in a running statblock?  AC and HP, saves, size, current appearance, perception modifier?
> 
> What is the ogres' apparent reach?
> 
> Tide's initiative is 6 (It's in the OOC spoiler in the combat post).  He's flying 30' up rather than 10' up.  I didn't adjust his stealth for size.
> My understanding is that invisibility grants total concealment, which is sufficient to hide.  Ordinarily, blindsight (etc) would make invisibility irrelevant, but as it stands with Darkstalker the blindsighted need to roll just like anyone else would to see an invisible character (the darkstalker knows how to mask their scent, etc).
> 
> I know that the ogres have higher initiative than Tide (stupid natural 1).  Does that mean that in this round (round 3?) the ogres spent their action killing heroes and Tide spent his action moving into position?  Or did Tide get in position last round and he needs to declare a new action this round?
> ...


The most useful information would be a quick reference for what options you have up I can see the standard stat blocks because I have time and links to your sheets. but If you have transformed, or if you have put up spells etc. that makes a difference. 

The reach of the Ogres appears to be 10 ft. But they are large and from standing they could hit (16+8) 24ft. A jump would put you range. if they make the roll that is. 16 ft is the matural total vertical range of a standard large creature,  a greatword is usually about as tall at the wielder (less handle estimate 8ft addition) 

if you are at 30 feet high you would not be able to reach all of them. 

If they can detect you through the Invis, I don't think Invis gives you concealment. Their ability specifically mentions Invisibility by name specifically. So I think that your invisibility offers no concealment; meaning no ability to hide. I think they detect you. It is possible they have just an imperfect outline but that again gives away your position.

True on the Helm, you can tell they see you. (assuming no concealment from invis, and that your sneak roll just lost about +20 off of it; At least one would see you and point out the giant monster floating above them. )




> A lot of action  sorry worked  two days   9 + hours I will post in the third round  asap


I work a lot myself and understand you must live in the real world, even if we would like to escape some place a little more magical. 




> Not sure how Tide is relevant if Blanc is going before him.


Both you and tide arrived at the end of Round 2. BUT you waited intil you saw the Ogres attack on Round 3. (Again everyone agreed to wait just to see how they fought) so even though you go before him on round 3, you are both in position on round 2. He is there in the area. HOWEVER. he is invisible, sorry tide, and you may not see him. so it is possible that you would release the blast still. BUT there are NPCs to account for. The decision is yours. 




> 8 Damage. 8. Measly damage.
> 
> Seems I will have to spend actions moving in close in order to make use of my splash weapons. But wow, do I need a way to increase the range of my alchemical items. They currently have a max of 50ft, and that gives me a -10 penalty to attack rolls with them as well. I wish there was an alchemical arrow item I could make, sacrificing some of the damage of my alchemical items in order to gain increased range.
> 
> Maybe it's something that Ferrous himself could create, afterwards? Or is there a special type of thrower that can be used with alchemical items to give them extra range?
> 
> Oh and Dieuoffire. Two things. 
> 
> First, the spellcraft was against the Bardic Music being sung, not the Displacement effect. Ferrous is expecting 'Anwar' to not be using Inspire Courage after all. 
> ...


Ahh, well spellcraft is spellcraft and it works just the same. Yes Anwar is actually using his ability.

I will have to see about google sheets. For now, I'm just glad it worked.




> As now, it may become relevant, I would like to fluff Toboruk's cuts as not the result of the blade making contact with his opponent but a bit farther beyond the blade. (At least when making use of a psionic feat).
> "It is the mind that cuts, the sword is merely a focus"


Easily done. 

@everyone.
So Rules are generally aimed at characters and don't take every monster ability into account, especially when custom is concerned. After this adventure I will be happy to discuss how/why I made the calls that I do (their detection ability specifically). I have been wrong before but to have a discussion about their abilities right now would delay the game considerably. I guess the old saying is "The show MUST go on!" So we shall.

----------


## Yas392

> Both you and tide arrived at the end of Round 2. BUT you waited intil you saw the Ogres attack on Round 3. (Again everyone agreed to wait just to see how they fought) so even though you go before him on round 3, you are both in position on round 2. He is there in the area. HOWEVER. he is invisible, sorry tide, and you may not see him. so it is possible that you would release the blast still. BUT there are NPCs to account for. The decision is yours.


I see now. Sometimes I forget that this is a multi-round. I will post the attack for Blanc shortly. Can she see the ogres from 100 ft away?

----------


## Dieuoffire

> I see now. Sometimes I forget that this is a multi-round. I will post the attack for Blanc shortly. Can she see the ogres from 100 ft away?


Sorry for the confusion, I will not do this again but I wanted to give everyone the description and tactic all at once.

Yes, you can easily see them from 100 feet away. However you cannot go until after the Ogres have attacked because you all decided to wait and see what they would do first. (and I am not recalculating that round!)

----------


## Yas392

> Sorry for the confusion, I will not do this again but I wanted to give everyone the description and tactic all at once.
> 
> Yes, you can easily see them from 100 feet away. However you cannot go until after the Ogres have attacked because you all decided to wait and see what they would do first. (and I am not recalculating that round!)


Yeah. I am asking this because this affects Blanc's position.

----------


## Cassus

> The most useful information would be a quick reference for what options you have up I can see the standard stat blocks because I have time and links to your sheets. but If you have transformed, or if you have put up spells etc. that makes a difference.


Does what I have in there now work for this, or would a different format be better?





> The reach of the Ogres appears to be 10 ft. But they are large and from standing they could hit (16+8) 24ft. A jump would put you range. if they make the roll that is. 16 ft is the matural total vertical range of a standard large creature,  a greatword is usually about as tall at the wielder (less handle estimate 8ft addition)


One of the oddities of reach in 3.5 is that, apart from Reach weapons, weapon size has no impact on it.  The uncharitable might say the developers were lazy and simplistic; the charitable might say that reach is the range a weapon can -effectively- be wielded at, and being able to tap someone with the tip of your sword isn't the same as being able to slice them open (in much the same way an average human does not fill a 5' cube.




> if you are at 30 feet high you would not be able to reach all of them.


  Given that the ogres are 10' tall and 40' apart at the widest and I only need to reach one square they occupy to threaten, I thought 30' up worked to cover them all.  Alright, then; he's not threatening the two furthest to the right.




> If they can detect you through the Invis, I don't think Invis gives you concealment. Their ability specifically mentions Invisibility by name specifically. So I think that your invisibility offers no concealment; meaning no ability to hide. I think they detect you. It is possible they have just an imperfect outline but that again gives away your position.
> 
> @everyone.
> So Rules are generally aimed at characters and don't take every monster ability into account, especially when custom is concerned. After this adventure I will be happy to discuss how/why I made the calls that I do (their detection ability specifically). I have been wrong before but to have a discussion about their abilities right now would delay the game considerably. I guess the old saying is "The show MUST go on!" So we shall.


Hm.  Well, that's that, then, I suppose.


@everyone
Sorry about the wait-- I legitimately thought I was waiting on everyone else.

----------


## MagneticDragon

... Okay, looking at both Toboruk's attack, Tide's Full Attack Action, and knowing that Blanc can more than likely bring a similar amount of damage but in a significant amount of AoE...

Even with the potential damage of my Alchemical Weapons, I do believe I am considerably outclassed in the combat department. Especially as my splash weapons cost money and time to make, _and_ I can only carry a limited amount of them at a time. 

I can only hope I can do my job to stand out outside of combat.

----------


## Yas392

Blanc can't do much either. Her bursts and cones are going to create friendly fire.

----------


## Cassus

@MagneticDragon-- I almost forgot-- pathfinder has an item called the Flask Thrower you might find interesting-- https://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentWeap...lask%20thrower -- as an exotic weapon, it'd be tricky to use, but you could probably ask the GM about adapting it.
I could've sworn there's also a 3.5 item that lets you spray liquids into a cone, but that might be a 3.0 thing; I couldn't find it.

@Yas392 Those are some enormous AoEs that would be very useful as opening strikes if we weren't three separate forces with no unified command structure.  They'd be even more useful if they forced a save against Entangle or some such; that would break up enemy formations something fierce.

----------


## MagneticDragon

> @MagneticDragon-- I almost forgot-- pathfinder has an item called the Flask Thrower you might find interesting-- https://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentWeap...lask%20thrower -- as an exotic weapon, it'd be tricky to use, but you could probably ask the GM about adapting it.
> I could've sworn there's also a 3.5 item that lets you spray liquids into a cone, but that might be a 3.0 thing; I couldn't find it.


Would require waiting until 12th level for a feat in order to pick up... or just take the -4 penalty for the doubled range. I am targeting touch AC, or maybe even squares for most of my attacks with splash weapons. So I don't need the highest attack modifier possible. Just a decent one, and having this item would undoubtedly help with the range issues, as it doubles my range...

And it _is_ a weapon as well. Putting the Distance Enchantment on it would give me a 40ft range, spectacular.

----------


## Novabomb

Please note that Toboruk has not had a chance to change out of "Unfettered Movement" stance (It increases his movespeed by 10, and gives +4AC vs AOO caused by movement) so he has the movement to go to that ogre.

By my count he could move just outside the leader's reach, but if I have misread the map, and he can reduce the quantity of Aoos by going after the leader, then he will change targets.

Let me know, and I will happily reroll as needed.
(As a skill check I assume its not subject to crits, or crit fails, but if you would like to rule otherwise, I do not mind)

As to timing, indeed the post was under the assumption that round 3 had been dealt with.


Special Note: I incorrectly power attacked for 9 rather than 8 (BAB limit), in the previous post.  The dmg should be 4 less than indicated.

----------


## Dieuoffire

> Does what I have in there now work for this, or would a different format be better?
> 
> 
> 
> One of the oddities of reach in 3.5 is that, apart from Reach weapons, weapon size has no impact on it.  The uncharitable might say the developers were lazy and simplistic; the charitable might say that reach is the range a weapon can -effectively- be wielded at, and being able to tap someone with the tip of your sword isn't the same as being able to slice them open (in much the same way an average human does not fill a 5' cube.
> 
>   Given that the ogres are 10' tall and 40' apart at the widest and I only need to reach one square they occupy to threaten, I thought 30' up worked to cover them all.  Alright, then; he's not threatening the two furthest to the right.
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry about the rush call, we can discuss it more later when you know their ability (don't want to spoil all the surprises for now) and should I be wrong, I will appologize, but PBP does take a lot of time if we spend too long disagreeing. 

I forgot that they are 10 ft tall. so 15 feet (radius) and 20 feet (down) hmm. (math) Well if you have a 30 foot reach I guess you do threaten them all. 

you also have a point about the weapon, just cause it can touch you does not mean it can 'Hit' you. but the book does give a large creature wielding a large weapon a 10 ft reach, which starts at the edge of their area. so they have a 20 ft standing reach. Meaning they would have to jump 10 ft to get you in range (DC 40)




> ... Okay, looking at both Toboruk's attack, Tide's Full Attack Action, and knowing that Blanc can more than likely bring a similar amount of damage but in a significant amount of AoE...
> 
> Even with the potential damage of my Alchemical Weapons, I do believe I am considerably outclassed in the combat department. Especially as my splash weapons cost money and time to make, _and_ I can only carry a limited amount of them at a time. 
> 
> I can only hope I can do my job to stand out outside of combat.


Things often change due to situations. one day you might find the roles reversed.




> @MagneticDragon-- I almost forgot-- pathfinder has an item called the Flask Thrower you might find interesting-- https://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentWeap...lask%20thrower -- as an exotic weapon, it'd be tricky to use, but you could probably ask the GM about adapting it.
> I could've sworn there's also a 3.5 item that lets you spray liquids into a cone, but that might be a 3.0 thing; I couldn't find it.
> 
> @Yas392 Those are some enormous AoEs that would be very useful as opening strikes if we weren't three separate forces with no unified command structure.  They'd be even more useful if they forced a save against Entangle or some such; that would break up enemy formations something fierce.


Seconded. again situation makes a difference




> Would require waiting until 12th level for a feat in order to pick up... or just take the -4 penalty for the doubled range. I am targeting touch AC, or maybe even squares for most of my attacks with splash weapons. So I don't need the highest attack modifier possible. Just a decent one, and having this item would undoubtedly help with the range issues, as it doubles my range...
> 
> And it _is_ a weapon as well. Putting the Distance Enchantment on it would give me a 40ft range, spectacular.


I would probably allow a flask thrower.




> Please note that Toboruk has not had a chance to change out of "Unfettered Movement" stance (It increases his movespeed by 10, and gives +4AC vs AOO caused by movement) so he has the movement to go to that ogre.
> 
> By my count he could move just outside the leader's reach, but if I have misread the map, and he can reduce the quantity of Aoos by going after the leader, then he will change targets.
> 
> Let me know, and I will happily reroll as needed.
> (As a skill check I assume its not subject to crits, or crit fails, but if you would like to rule otherwise, I do not mind)
> 
> As to timing, indeed the post was under the assumption that round 3 had been dealt with.
> 
> ...


it is not the movement I doubted. Charge specifies that *First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent.* this means that the charge must go through the threatened area. so you will be walking through the threatened area (moving through threatened squares gives them AoOs). the movement is enough. But even with more movement, you must still go through those threatened squares.

No need to reroll. At least right now (unless something changes).

----------


## Dieuoffire

need some saves for Tide's attacks to respond IC 

(1d20+7)[*18*]
(1d20+7)[*18*]
(1d20+7)[*9*]
(1d20+7)[*21*]
(1d20+7)[*23*]

----------


## Dieuoffire

wow that was bad. need a few more.

(1d20+7)[*22*]
(1d20+7)[*8*]

----------


## Cassus

> Sorry about the rush call, we can discuss it more later when you know their ability (don't want to spoil all the surprises for now) and should I be wrong, I will appologize, but PBP does take a lot of time if we spend too long disagreeing.


I don't disagree.  Same thing applies during live sessions.




> Things often change due to situations. one day you might find the roles reversed.
> 
> Seconded. again situation makes a difference


Seconding the seconding.   A group of melee-only bruiser-type enemies that all come from the same direction and aren't demonstrating spellcasting is pretty ideal for Tide.  Off the top of my head, being on the opposite side of this encounter would be much harder for him (and easier for people with AoEs).

----------


## Yas392

No save. All it needs is the beam to hit the target.

----------


## MagneticDragon

So uh, how does one look at the map, exactly? I can download an .oxps file, but I can't seem to do anything with it. 

And I do need to check the map in order to see how far away I am from the ogres in order to calculate my turn. With Tide down, and the archers getting ready to fire again, I seriously need to consider my options carefully.

----------


## Cassus

My PC came with a program called PDFX, which was able to open the file no problem.  

Ferrous is 23 squares (115 feet?) from the nearest ogres, with all of the wagons between him and them.  It's a line of three ogres, with the leader in the middle and Tide's inert form on the other side.

----------


## MagneticDragon

Well, damn. Even if I move 60ft, I'll still be 55ft away from the nearest Orges. So all Ferrous can truly do is move and make a single ranged attack.

I am so going to pick up a flask launcher as soon as we can. Not sure where I will be able to get such an item though...

----------


## Novabomb

> Well, damn. Even if I move 60ft, I'll still be 55ft away from the nearest Orges. So all Ferrous can truly do is move and make a single ranged attack.
> 
> I am so going to pick up a flask launcher as soon as we can. Not sure where I will be able to get such an item though...


Perhaps do you have something that can manipulate the environment? perhaps a smoke screen from the sudden archers?

----------


## Cassus

Baleful Utterance?  Smokescreen would be really nice too, if you can get it all the way over here.

Oh!  Another idea for using alchemical items-- get a Collar of Perpetual Attendance and have it spend its actions to deploy your alchemy stuff.

----------


## Yas392

*@Dieuoffire* Blanc has a portrait if you have access to my sheet.

----------


## LairdMaon

I've been trying to see the map, but my phone doesn't recognize the file type. Can someone tell me what kind of opposition and/or hazards I'm looking at if I charge the enemy cadence caller?

----------


## Cassus

The enemy cadence caller is almost directly down the road from Callen, by the forest.  In between the two of you is a melee of seven ogres and the remains of the Army of Heroes.  You'll also stumble over Tide if you somehow phase through the ogres, but he's invisible.

----------


## LairdMaon

Thanks! How far to that melee?

----------


## Cassus

25-30' depending on if you're going for the ogre leader (closest) or the dazed ogre next to him.  The AoH is surrounding four ogres further in, with no clear line to charge.

----------


## MagneticDragon

> Perhaps do you have something that can manipulate the environment? perhaps a smoke screen from the sudden archers?





> Baleful Utterance?  Smokescreen would be really nice too, if you can get it all the way over here.
> 
> Oh!  Another idea for using alchemical items-- get a Collar of Perpetual Attendance and have it spend its actions to deploy your alchemy stuff.


Sadly, I don't have the range to deploy my smokescreen either. Liquid Smoke can be thrown, but it counts as a splash weapon. 10ft range, 50ft maximum. And I have it stored in my haversack, so I will have to spend a move action pulling it out. Honestly, considering how useless the arrows have been so far, I'm probably going to get the liquid smoke out anyway... and because I underestimated how useful it might be, I only have _one_ liquid smoke, and it only lasts a single round... 

As for Shatter? It only works against non-magical items, and there are far too many people here with Magical Items for it to be of any use. I can't see what is and isn't magical myself, so Ferrous would not take the risk. Plus, it's Close Range. At level 9, that's 45ft. Again, simply too far. 

I... have to admit. This first encounter has been _extremely_ illuminating in how essential range and speed are when we are fighting in non-urban environments

Also, I _do_ have the Collar of Perpetual Attendance... except, I'm pretty sure magic items that replicate spells use the caster level of the item. The Collar has a Caster Level of *1.* Meaning the Unseen Servant has a range of 25ft. Not to mention it only has a 15ft movement speed and cannot make an attack roll. So while the Collar is fantastic when it comes to encounters where we have time to set up, or on the retreat. It sadly isn't going to be of any use for now. _Althrough_, now that I think about it. Nothing says the Unseen Servant of the Collar can't use its move actions to pull items out of the Handy Haversack, which is pretty nice. I don't think it will be useful now, as would have to spend a standard action to summon it, and I need the movement, but it does have its uses for sure. 

Maybe I should get a second one for Ghost. He _is_ a cat, so he should be able to use it, no?

Oh, and someone reminds me to make sure I apply Tarmak War Paint to people next time. The +10 bonus to Natural Armour would be making a pretty big difference right about now...

Edit: Okay, as the Flask Launcher, a Pathfinder item, is potentially allowed. I'm going to ask if it might be possible to potential acquire Smoke Arrows, in order to be able to provide cover from range, in case an issue like this happens again.

----------


## Cassus

The Collar of Perpetual Attendance is continuous, not at-will.  The Servant is always with you.

Other than that, fair; I realized that I'm way too used to playing with some houserules that increase warlock invocation ranges.

----------


## Yas392

The archers revealed themselves. That would be the ideal situation for Blanc if everyone cleared away.

----------


## LairdMaon

> The archers revealed themselves. That would be the ideal situation for Blanc if everyone cleared away.


Does Callen have a clear path to harass the archers?

----------


## Yas392

> Does Callen have a clear path to harass the archers?


Judging from the map, I think so. From DM's statements, yeah. Do you not have access to the map?

----------


## LairdMaon

> Judging from the map, I think so. From DM's statements, yeah. Do you not have access to the map?


No access at all. I do everything via mobile and my phone won't recognize the file type.

----------


## Yas392

> No access at all. I do everything via mobile and my phone won't recognize the file type.


I see. Also, I am revising my view on the statements. *@Dieuoffice*, can we get a confirmation whether the archers are visible to our characters if "we know where they are hiding?"

----------


## Dieuoffire

> *@Dieuoffire* Blanc has a portrait if you have access to my sheet.


 I will add it on the next Map.




> I... have to admit. This first encounter has been _extremely_ illuminating in how essential range and speed are when we are fighting in non-urban environments
> 
> Oh, and someone reminds me to make sure I apply Tarmak War Paint to people next time. The +10 bonus to Natural Armour would be making a pretty big difference right about now...
> 
> Edit: Okay, as the Flask Launcher, a Pathfinder item, is potentially allowed. I'm going to ask if it might be possible to potential acquire Smoke Arrows, in order to be able to provide cover from range, in case an issue like this happens again.


Learning is what the first combat is about. open plains battles differ greatly from dungeon crawl.

The war paint *may* have made a huge difference here. the surprizes are not done. 

Smoke arrows are fine but they don't have a duration that I can see. (that does make a difference.)




> I see. Also, I am revising my view on the statements. *@Dieuoffice*, can we get a confirmation whether the archers are visible to our characters if "we know where they are hiding?"


The archers are visible but have about 50% cover. 


@everyone
Just as an FYI: I did not anticipate a fight to the death here. I thought the PCs would watch and save what you can but not fully commit. There are a lot of things that you could figure out should you try to do so. remember they did pick the terrain, then picked the terrain a second time. (They decided to go out to fight). They also started with more bonuses up, and one of them was rather large (bard is actually good at this).

----------


## Dieuoffire

Ok,

Did not anticipate a critical hit from the leader As the First Melee Blow.

I usually do not fudge dice but... That *Sucks* for Toboruk. I know I warned about their offensive power but I still feel the dice gods did not play fair here. (10% chance) and Toboruk doesn't deserve to die from an AoO before he can land his single blow. 

I feel it fair to take a vote of PCs would anyone mind if I dropped his power attack? The leaders +8 damage (power attack of 4 doubled for 2 handed weapon, 16 total with crit) would leave Toboruk at least *alive*?

If everyone agrees the leader then does 75 damage. (91-16=75) this would make ToboRuk Alive. Again I hate killing characters one the first blow, if anyone can obtain Revivify I would also be happy to not fudge dice!

IF however we want to keep a no mercy standpoint in this game; ToboRuk will be dead unless they have some defense I am unaware of. It is a good stance to take. 

After the first combat, when everyone understands each other and is better prepared to work together, I will be happy to say: "After first combat for any PC instant death is valid." That way new players who join later can at least try something before instant death.

----------


## Cassus

I'm fine with this.  My own experience is that dice are fudged less frequently the more frequently a group's played together-- consensus about/familiarity with things like optimization levels, combat scaling, etc, is very hard to develop outside of actual play.  Pretty sure that many of us were expecting this to be a lethal but winnable combat where you weren't even expecting the PCs to participate.

Also, you'll leave a note IC when we're "up," right?

That said, while we're talking about this, what's your rule if a PC dies?  Sit out until someone finds a revive, build a new PC, out of the campaign for life, etc?

----------


## Dieuoffire

> I'm fine with this.  My own experience is that dice are fudged less frequently the more frequently a group's played together-- consensus about/familiarity with things like optimization levels, combat scaling, etc, is very hard to develop outside of actual play.  Pretty sure that many of us were expecting this to be a lethal but winnable combat where you weren't even expecting the PCs to participate.
> 
> Also, you'll leave a note IC when we're "up," right?


I usually agree with that mentality. First time working together is the hardest. Nobody knows how another will play; until the "crap hits the fan." 

You can assume you awake on your turn as your healing will rouse you from dying. 

If someone does not go quickly, I usually remind them of their turn.

When someone dies, I tend to give them a choice: Do you want to revive? (wait) Do you want to make a new character? (which I will Into ASAP for the storyline)

BUT if you bring in a new character you start at the starting point or one level lower than the group for example if we hit level 12 as a group average and you bring in a character new you start at 11. Without all the fun extras of the group. (you don't have a share in the artifact the group earned)

I find this makes player want to keep the same character a little but not so much as to play a PC they have come to hate. It's also fair to say "your PC did not earn that!" when it was the Prior one that earned it, not the new one.

resurrecting a PC is much less of a story pain too.

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## Cassus

I think I edited this in too late.  It seems really relevant right now, though--
That said, while we're talking about this, what's your rule if a PC dies? Sit out until someone finds a revive, build a new PC, out of the campaign for life, etc?

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## Dieuoffire

timing wow. 

edited the prior post right as you posted again

----------


## Yas392

> Ok,
> 
> Did not anticipate a critical hit from the leader As the First Melee Blow.
> 
> I usually do not fudge dice but... That *Sucks* for Toboruk. I know I warned about their offensive power but I still feel the dice gods did not play fair here. (10% chance) and Toboruk doesn't deserve to die from an AoO before he can land his single blow. 
> 
> I feel it fair to take a vote of PCs would anyone mind if I dropped his power attack? The leaders +8 damage (power attack of 4 doubled for 2 handed weapon, 16 total with crit) would leave Toboruk at least *alive*?
> 
> If everyone agrees the leader then does 75 damage. (91-16=75) this would make ToboRuk Alive. Again I hate killing characters one the first blow, if anyone can obtain Revivify I would also be happy to not fudge dice!
> ...


I am fine with it unless Toboruk has a maneuver that helps negate or shave off damage. Blanc will want to stay far away from this abomination after seeing him hit Toboruk and Yohaan like a truck with ease.

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## D&DPrinceTandem

You know, I think this is the best time for Yohaan, a ranged combatant in melee range -with an AC 18- that just insulted a very angry orge to say
*Spoiler*
Show



and you know what, Im here for it. If push comes to shove, I can have a lvl 8 that is perfect for this kind of campaign (at least how it is shaping out atm) in maybe 90 minutes tops (thematically too).

----------


## Yas392

> You know, I think this is the best time for Yohaan, a ranged combatant in melee range -with an AC 18- that just insulted a very angry orge to say
> *Spoiler*
> Show
> 
> 
> 
> and you know what, Im here for it. If push comes to shove, I can have a lvl 8 that is perfect for this kind of campaign (at least how it is shaping out atm) in maybe 90 minutes tops (thematically too).


Oh no, we created a hulk.

----------


## MagneticDragon

I most certainly think it is best to downplay the damage that the Orge Captain is doing. This is the first battle after all and is basically a Session Zero. Allowing us to learn more about each other, what to expect in regards to the danger the Hellblades represent, the posting rate of everyone, and the synergy between the party.

Or the complete lack thereof. 

Admittedly, I am somewhat uncertain _how_ we are going to get out of this fight without losing at least one or two people. Unless the Hellblades are willing to let us run away (and the remaining members of the caravan), content with the devastation they have wrecked, and allowing the story of their brutal victory to spread. I am quite uncertain of how we are going to be able to successfully retreat. As it is quite clear that retreat is an absolute necessity at this point. 

... Oh and side note, I think the Smoke Arrows work similar to Smokesticks, so the duration is similar to a Fog Cloud, but shorter. Say, 1 minute in light wind, then 4 rounds in moderate wind and 1 round in strong wind?

----------


## LairdMaon

If I'm close enough to our fallen man, I can hit him with a maximized heal... would that help? 

I feel like I'm blind here, lol

----------


## Yas392

Lemme see if I can link you to map.

*Spoiler: Map*
Show

----------


## LairdMaon

> Lemme see if I can link you to map.
> 
> *Spoiler: Map*
> Show


Thank you! 

It looks like, to my understanding, Tob is currently between Puck and that big boy east of Callen? That'd be great because then I can move to him and get him with my healing. No more laying down on the job!

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## Yas392

> Thank you! 
> 
> It looks like, to my understanding, Tob is currently between Puck and that big boy east of Callen? That'd be great because then I can move to him and get him with my healing. No more laying down on the job!


From the Dieuoffice post, Tob rushed into Ogre Leader's threat range and got dropped.

----------


## LairdMaon

> From the Dieuoffice post, Tob rushed into Ogre Leader's threat range and got dropped.


Well, he can get back up now. Just call me the StimPack Dealer.

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## MagneticDragon

Thank you very much for the map Yas. It is going to be extremely useful. And thank you very much Laird, for the potent healing. Hopefully, you still have quite a bit of healing left in the tank, as I suspect we are going to need it in order to be able to get out of this alive. 

As for my Animal Companion, my apologies, it seems I am too used to 5E and the fact it has companions act on the same turn as the player character. Do you want me to roll a Separate Initiative count for Ghost? And it is currently under the effects of the 'Defend' command. Staying close to Ferrous and attacking anyone that come close or attacked Ferrous. This might change during Round 5, but for now, Ghost is simply sticking next to Ferrous' side, ready to defend him from any attacks.

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## Novabomb

Greetings,

I appreciate the consideration, but you need not worry about it in this case.
It is clear that by the numbers, that Toboruk is unlikely to contribute in a manner consistent with his characterization.
Thank you for selecting my entry, I will not be continuing with this character however.

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## Yas392

I know that niw18 is busy. Haven't heard from *@Balthanon*. Is he still in this game?

----------


## Dieuoffire

> Thank you very much for the map Yas. It is going to be extremely useful. And thank you very much Laird, for the potent healing. Hopefully, you still have quite a bit of healing left in the tank, as I suspect we are going to need it in order to be able to get out of this alive. 
> 
> As for my Animal Companion, my apologies, it seems I am too used to 5E and the fact it has companions act on the same turn as the player character. Do you want me to roll a Separate Initiative count for Ghost? And it is currently under the effects of the 'Defend' command. Staying close to Ferrous and attacking anyone that come close or attacked Ferrous. This might change during Round 5, but for now, Ghost is simply sticking next to Ferrous' side, ready to defend him from any attacks.


I cqan have the Animal companion go on the same tick for simplification. That is not a problem I think.




> Greetings,
> 
> I appreciate the consideration, but you need not worry about it in this case.
> It is clear that by the numbers, that Toboruk is unlikely to contribute in a manner consistent with his characterization.
> Thank you for selecting my entry, I will not be continuing with this character however.


I disagree, The Ogre got lucky. A critical Hit? He was very lucky. Realize that right now the Ogres have the advantage, then next time you can plan to have the advantage. for example.

next time find a way to eliminate the bardic music and go full defensive while you take an extra round to do a single 5ft step. your AC up, His attack down, his damage down. He would have a worse than 50% chance to hit. Add in bonuses from your allies and you could do very well. 

These Ogres where designed for direct damage output, the one you are facing is a higher CR than your level. I mentioned at the start of the game, also in recruitment, that Toe-To-Toe would end badly. I have looked at the PCs and the villains. Your guys would have a much better chances IF you did not have them with all the advantages.

I will wait for a bit to see if you want to continue. @Novabomb




> I know that niw18 is busy. Haven't heard from *@Balthanon*. Is he still in this game?


I am concerned about both. Have not heard from them and this adventure was designed with 8 Players in mind.

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## MagneticDragon

> Greetings,
> 
> I appreciate the consideration, but you need not worry about it in this case.
> It is clear that by the numbers, that Toboruk is unlikely to contribute in a manner consistent with his characterization.
> Thank you for selecting my entry, I will not be continuing with this character however.


That... seems like a rather drastic decision to make? It was only a fluke that you ended up getting crit and taken out of the fight immediately, and if you had landed your own attack instead. Chances are quite high that you would have done devastating damage yourself. 

Plus, it seems there was miscommunication between the players and the DM when it came to the expected difficulty of this encounter, and how difficult the Hellblades might be to fight. As Dieuoffire mentioned here, they were not anticipating us to commit as fully as we have, and the situation was designed for us not to really win from the start. Thanks to their greater numbers, buffs, and terrain advantedge. 

In fact, Toboruk would have been contributing to the fight _far_ more meaningfully than my character has if it was not for the lucky critical hit. So I honestly do not understand why you feel the need to outright quiet, when the next fights are more likely to go our way? What part of Toboruk's characterization is such a significant issue that you do not believe you can continue playing him?




> I am concerned about both. Have not heard from them and this adventure was designed with 8 Players in mind.


Not to mention there is this to consider, as we are taking part in an encounter that is not simply stacked against us, but also designed for 8 players and we are currently 2 players down. 

If you still believe this game is not for you, then... well, nothing we can do to stop you. I just hope you stop and reconsider, as this seems like a very drastic action when we are basically in 'session zero'.

----------


## Balthanon

> I know that niw18 is busy. Haven't heard from *@Balthanon*. Is he still in this game?


My time still hasn't really freed up as much as I'd like and I've been focusing on my own campaigns that I was running where I did have time honestly; so I can't really say I've been participating.  (And to be honest, the character probably would have been hesitant about actually attacking a numerically superior force of these ogres off the bat too based on what I'm getting from skimming.)  Might have to just back out at this point, given that I'm not really contributing properly, though if people want me to stick around I can see if I can catch up and post.

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## Novabomb

> I cqan have the Animal companion go on the same tick for simplification. That is not a problem I think.
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree, The Ogre got lucky. A critical Hit? He was very lucky. Realize that right now the Ogres have the advantage, then next time you can plan to have the advantage. for example.
> 
> next time find a way to eliminate the bardic music and go full defensive while you take an extra round to do a single 5ft step. your AC up, His attack down, his damage down. He would have a worse than 50% chance to hit. Add in bonuses from your allies and you could do very well. 
> 
> These Ogres where designed for direct damage output, the one you are facing is a higher CR than your level. I mentioned at the start of the game, also in recruitment, that Toe-To-Toe would end badly. I have looked at the PCs and the villains. Your guys would have a much better chances IF you did not have them with all the advantages.
> ...


You were not unclear that the style of combat that the party is engaged in currently would not end well.
Personally I took that to mean that on an encounter level that we could not expect to succeed if we fought on the Hellblade's terms. (Personally I figured that meant well organized a disciplined troops, in quantities of enemies that were generally too great to engage as a party)
I did not understand that to mean that most foes are likely to drop us in the first round of melee, and that 2 would definitely not be survivable.  This was matter of miscommunication, if I had been aware of the benchmark, I would not have entered someone focused on melee, or at least not someone with an AC and HP so low.

(For reference, I was anticipating something on the order of +15-19, in contrast to the +22-26)
--
As a player, I am not really interested in investing in a character that will consistently face the 10% one shot if they are to do their main schtick.  Other characters can avoid this by: having more HP, having better defenses, or not getting into range.
--
Please also note that your inbox is full at the moment, which is why I am posting instead of PMing.
I am not necessarily opposed to returning with a new character, but I am aware that there were numerous variant applications that were not selected and I do not currently have anything prepared.

----------


## Dieuoffire

The one that you charged was a leader, whose main focus is melee. He is also well prepared for this encounter. should you have found him without the bardic bonus one on one, the encounter could be much different. 

As for a crit, you have a similar chance to down any of them by using your (easily repeatable) maneuvers. at this level there are lots of builds that one good or bad roll means death. This is only one of them that focuses on straight damage. I mean how many save or suck/die spells are there floating around by 9th level? if your save is the bottom 10% (a 2) you pretty much turn against your party by a charm person spell. 

I don't believe your character is out-classed just got unlucky for a round.

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## MagneticDragon

Speaking of buffs, and debuffing, I am rather hoping that some of the people chosen will be packing a decent ability to either buff or debuff. From the looks of the situation, we have nothing to worry about when it comes to raw damage, and we potentially have some potent frontliners, if we were not in such a poor situation where we are vastly outnumbered and without buffs to help make our frontliners sturdy. But it seems to be that buffs and battlefield control are somewhat lacklustre.

Goodness knows something like a Wall of Ice, a Solid Fog, or even just a Fog Cloud with its Medium range would be useful right about now.

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## Yas392

Are we waiting for someone to post?

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## Cassus

I'm a bit confused, but I -think- we're on initiative 9, which would be Blanc and Yohaan.  The held action rules mean the ogre archers are going after Tide this round, probably.

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## niw18

I am still here I am  slowly making my post

o yea need a roll for initiate 

(1d20+5)[*18*]

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## D&DPrinceTandem

It seems we have made it to rnd 4 Init 9. I'll go before Blanc to see if I can get out of AoE range so I'm not a hazard lol

Current status [Beginning of turn]
HP: 39/69
Spellfire Energy levels: 40/20 [tier 2]
Versatile Restoration Pool: 90/90

Actions to be taken
Free: Heal self 45 hp (-45 from VRpool) HP becomes: 69/69
Free action: Speak some bad**sery to the stinky orges and hopefully get 
Standard [or free] Action: Healing to Toboruk [Anything over your Max HP becomes a Reserve that you can release to heal you again as a Swift Action] Roll: max SfEL (TBD after DM answers question)
Move [or full] action: Move around very foolishly, let's hope these leveled Orges that each alone have a challenge rating comparable to a party of mid-level adventures (6-9) do not have combat reflexes, I don't think I can handle more than 1 AoO from each, though 1 from each is my intention. To reiterate, my movements are to provoke Attacks of Opportunity (yea the enemies aren't completely stupid, but they are still ogres with an Intelligence less than the average human)
Free action: probably more profanity and tomfoolery to be spoke. maybe a Death throes Speech to be extra heroic lol

*Spoiler: @DM; tangent. spoiled it for simplicity of quoting*
Show

If I'm partially concerned about the limits placed on my character. If by your account (using the Orge Leader as an example) a +25 on Attack rolls and +45 to Damage rolls is something a dedicated build (of a CR above our lvl) should be doing then why is it that you limited me to 9 SfEL per turn (something I regrettably limited further to 5 per action).
Because right now a single enemy is dishing out a minimum of 48 damage per swing on something that can't miss on a 1 unless the target has an AC comparable to that of an Adult Red Dragon (AC 28, CR 15) Where as I can heal at tops 35 damage per round.
1 enemy can swing at least 2 times in a round. minimum damage output (Assuming they don't roll a 1) is 98.
I can heal once per turn. Maximum Healing effect I can dish out is 35, 54 if we are using the 9 SfEL 

I have worked on a reasonable limitation in the spoiler below, tell me here or PM if there are any issues that you see with the changes, at least with your campaign in mind
*Spoiler: NEW Spellfire Basic Rules Overview*
Show


*How To obtain spellfire energy levels*
Whenever targeted with a magical ability (be it a spell, spell like ability, or psionic power) You may spend a Free action to absorb the energy. This negates the effect as if you were a rod of negation. This negation only effects spells that target you and only the portion of the spell that target you (for example, if a spell targets multiple targets and you are one of them, you only negate the portion that targets you). You gain a number of Spellfire Energy levels equal to the effects level. You may not store more Spellfire Energy levels then you Constitution Score [unless class features dictate otherwise. You may spend this free action once per turn plus a number of times per turn equal to your Constitution Modifier [this is based on the Combat Reflexes feat]. If you use this ability any number of times in a turn you may not make Attacks of opportunity for the rest of the turn. Each time you make an Attack of opportunity in a turn, reduce the number of uses you have left in that turn by 1.
[Side Bar: why is this rule needed? As it stands a Spellfire Wielder does not have a limit on how many times per turn they can absorb magical energy. This ties the limit to an existing mechanic, Attacks of Opportunity]
*Spellfire Energy Level Uses*
There are Two generic uses for Spell fire Energy levels. Unless otherwise noted, no single use of Spellfire Energy Levels may spend more than your constitution Modifier plus your character level.
[Side Bar: Old limit was Con Score. Generally, Your Con Modifier plus level will be lower than your Constitution Score (Yohaan would need to be level 15 to match her current effective Con score, which by then should have gone up by 1, the next level by 1 again)]

*Spellfire Bolt (Su)*: as a Standard Action you may fire a bolt of pure spellfire at a target within 400ft of you. Make a ranged touch attack against the target, if it hits the target takes Xd6 damage, where X is half the number of energy levels spent. Half of this Damage is pure magic (untyped) and the other half is Fire damage
[Side Bar: Made the ability more organized and in line with 3.5 ability structure; mechanically it functions at half the power of the published Spellfire Bolt)

*Healing Touch (Su)*: with a touch (generally a free action for willing targets, a standard action if the target is unwilling) you may channel Spellfire into a healing energy that restores 2 hp per energy level expended. No one creature can be targeted twice in a Round by this ability. If this ability would be a free action you may use this ability as part of a movement.
[The ability doesn't specify the action type of the healing property of Spellfire and to make healing less obsolete and useless in the combative setting that is D&D I have made it a Free action with the further limit that nobody can be healed twice in a round. I still have to spend a move action (potential provoking AoO) to even do healing in the first place so I believe it is a fair trade.]

Other abilities require more dedication (or simply being more gifted) to the art of Spellfire (this means levels in a Class such as Spellfire Adept or Various spellfire related feats)


Thes changes mean that Yohaan's Spellfire Bolt[14 SfEL] would deal an average of 24 dmg and 42 max. this is considerably less then our dedicated martial at nigh 100 dmg. Her Healing touch [the focus of her entire character and theme) would heal a maximum of 98 damage per touch. In the Best scenario I'm healing 98 damage by expending 23% of the maximum Spell fire energy levels that I can hold at a time.
All the while Yohaan's reserves would be depleted a whole lot faster (Each max use depleting more than half an entire tier of reserves) and the need to fill them would become more dynamic (and fun.)



This far, current pools are
*HP*: 69/69
*Spellfire Energy Levels*: 40[-X]/20 (Tier 2)
*Versatile Restoration Pool*: 45/90

will describe IC when question is answered and AoO are rolled (I'll be moving in such a way as to provoke at least 1 AoO from each Orge, then ending abt 15ft east [if the map is arranged compass accurate]

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## Dieuoffire

JUST AN IMPORTANT FYI

LairdMaon (Callen) has asked to step out of this game for personal reasons. He preferred to go out doing something heroic. So this was his choice. I would not have gone so crazy (P.attack 10) IF he had not prior informed me of his decision to leave. 

Callen dies while saving another. Maybe in a very (hopefully) Agent Colson Manor, trying to ring the party together against a greater threat. 

LairdMaon Hope to actually play a full game with you sometime!

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## LairdMaon

Action: Full Attack focusing first on Callen then on Yohaan.

Attack - (1d20+19)[34]
As Callen is in what appears to be studded leather, The Leader will increase his power attack. (10)
Damage - (3d6+47)[61]

Attack - (1d20+19)[23]
Power attack (5)
Damage - (3d6+37)[44]

The second attack is enough to put Callen on the ground. Current HP is -20/85

Y'all have a great time! Best of luck!

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## D&DPrinceTandem

@Dieuoffire; unless you have some houserule, the magic piercing function of Peirce Magical Protection is a Standard action in and of itself, it's also one attack.

Edit: Also, Toboruk moved, Orge leader attacked him and then cleaved and hit me. Then he attacked again? Was that first attack set Rnd 3 then, happening before Yohaan's rnd 3. or was the first attack (Toboruk then cleave n hit me) rnd 4, if so do i still get a trun for 4rnd for or was the attack against Toboruk an AoO and I got cleaved off of that?

----------


## Dieuoffire

Woops forgot that about the standard attack on that Feat. He will not use the Pierce feat. Does not need it really. just wanted to show you that they have it. 

I kept thinking that Toboruk was Round 3 for some reason. Toboruk was on Round 4. I forgot that he had already cleaved that round. So I will delete the cleave attack.

Fixed the Mistakes. He does not attack Yohaan.

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## D&DPrinceTandem

> Woops forgot that about the standard attack on that Feat. He will not use the Pierce feat. Does not need it really. just wanted to show you that they have it. 
> 
> I kept thinking that Toboruk was Round 3 for some reason. Toboruk was on Round 4. I forgot that he had already cleaved that round. So I will delete the cleave attack.
> 
> Fixed the Mistakes. He does not attack Yohaan.


Aie, coolio. Good to know BDEF doesn't have Greater Cleave lol
Just need an answer to this, will post IC when response lol (take your time tho, no rush)



> *Spoiler: @DM; tangent. spoiled it for simplicity of quoting*
> Show
> 
> If I'm partially concerned about the limits placed on my character. If by your account (using the Orge Leader as an example) a +25 on Attack rolls and +45 to Damage rolls is something a dedicated build (of a CR above our lvl) should be doing then why is it that you limited me to 9 SfEL per turn (something I regrettably limited further to 5 per action).
> Because right now a single enemy is dishing out a minimum of 48 damage per swing on something that can't miss on a 1 unless the target has an AC comparable to that of an Adult Red Dragon (AC 28, CR 15) Where as I can heal at tops 35 damage per round.
> 1 enemy can swing at least 2 times in a round. minimum damage output (Assuming they don't roll a 1) is 98.
> I can heal once per turn. Maximum Healing effect I can dish out is 35, 54 if we are using the 9 SfEL
> 
> I have worked on a reasonable limitation in the spoiler below, tell me here or PM if there are any issues that you see with the changes, at least with your campaign in mind
> ...


Also for PSA
Things to be determined abt the Leader: He has a BAB of atleast 10 (which would correlate to at least 10 HD not counting that gained from the Bard), He has at least 7 feats (Mage Slayer, Blind fighting, Pierce Magical Concealment, Pierce Magical Protection, Power Attack, Cleave, Combat Reflexes (he has made 1 AoO, and still has another, he could have a magic item giving him another tho) This could be obtained though RHD 4, Fighter 6 (resulting in 4 feats via lvls and 4 feats via Fighter, he could also have 2 more from flaws if he is built like a PC)) and a minimum Dex of 12 because Combat reflexes.

----------


## Dieuoffire

> It seems we have made it to rnd 4 Init 9. I'll go before Blanc to see if I can get out of AoE range so I'm not a hazard lol
> 
> Current status [Beginning of turn]
> HP: 39/69
> Spellfire Energy levels: 40/20 [tier 2]
> Versatile Restoration Pool: 90/90
> 
> Actions to be taken
> Free: Heal self 45 hp (-45 from VRpool) HP becomes: 69/69
> ...


Four things.

1 I think you are right. the Cap on your abilities was too low. I am too cautious with custom to start with, sorry. Remember Toboruk is a damage dealer focused character. so you should not deal as much as that.

2 The other Ogres are Dazed and CANNOT make AoO Until they lose their daze at Init 6 

3 This means that the Only AoO that can currently be made is by the Leader. 

4 Does your spellfire healing allow him to make AoO as casting a spell would? You movement certainly will. but should you take that, none of the Ogres in melee will be able to make any more attacks this round. everyone could escape for at lease a round.

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## MagneticDragon

> Move around very foolishly...
> ... To reiterate, my movements are to provoke Attacks of Opportunity


I was going to point out that the Orges are dazed, so they are unlikely going to be able to make Attacks of Opportunity. But, your initiative is after their own initiative, meaning that they are no longer dazed and are capable of making attacks of opportunity now. Keeping track of conditions is, difficult.

Question is though, why on earth are you doing this? Are you trying to make it so that all the NPCs can run away safely? They are technically on the exact same initiative as you, so I don't know how effective that might end up being.

Edit: Oh, their initiative is 6? I thought the map said they were on initiative 14?

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## Dieuoffire

They are dazed until Tide's initiative (6). not theirs. 
A full round from when Tide hit them.

And yes they will be running, But Yohaan can go before them on this tick.

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## D&DPrinceTandem

@Dieuoffire
1. Glad we agree lol. I never considered dealing the same amount of damage as Toboruk, but only saying that dealing less than half of what he can do is a more reasonable limit
2/3. Thought they would lose their daze at the end of their turn, if the good guys can/do move without provoking then I will have to change my tactics lol.
4. Spellfire is a (Su) ability, so it doesn't provoke AoO. Only acceptation is that it can be effected by spells and magic items as if it where a spell like ability. And I can dispel another's Spellfire with Spellfire as if it where a spell.


@MagneticDragon; I was under the impression they would end their daze at the end of their init.

----------


## Yas392

*@Dieuoffice* Are the archers shooting now or later?

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## D&DPrinceTandem

Rolls that will be needed
Healing [14] Torobuk: (14d6+14)[*66*]
1 dagger attack [gaintbane, SfChan(11)]: (1d20+20)[*40*] (total of 40 or 39 is a Crit)
1 damage: (15d4+9)[*43*]+(2d6)[*7*](Bane)

Actions
Standard Action: Attack against the Leader
Free action: Heal on Torobuk
Move Action: I will move but no matter how I move he gets an AoO so I will define where I go after that roll is made
still have 15 SfEL now

Edit: NATURAL FRIGGIN 20 LETS GOOOOOOO

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## MagneticDragon

> They are dazed until Tide's initiative (6). not theirs. 
> A full round from when Tide hit them.


Ah. That makes a lot more sense. 




> Healing [14] Torobuk: [roll0]


I'm not sure if NovaBomb is still willing to continue or not, so in the interest of pragmatism, I have to ask whether or not healing Torobouk is the correct choice? Especially as you admitted that healing is that much HP is taking a considerable amount of your resources. Are you capable of healing Tide? That would more likely be the better action, though I do think he might still be invisible, so I can understand why you might not do so.




> Edit: NATURAL FRIGGIN 20 LETS GOOOOOOO


An extra 15d4+9 damage, assuming you confirm the critical hit, well done. Though I have to admit, how exactly are you doing 15d4 damage? That's quite a lot of damage for a dagger attack.

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## D&DPrinceTandem

> I'm not sure if NovaBomb is still willing to continue or not, so in the interest of pragmatism, I have to ask whether or not healing Torobouk is the correct choice? Especially as you admitted that healing is that much HP is taking a considerable amount of your resources. Are you capable of healing Tide? That would more likely be the better action, though I do think he might still be invisible, so I can understand why you might not do so.
> 
> An extra 15d4+9 damage, assuming you confirm the critical hit, well done. Though I have to admit, how exactly are you doing 15d4 damage? That's quite a lot of damage for a dagger attack.


Aie, u right abt that, guess i still held hopes lol
(*General question*) Does Yohaan know tide is present and if he is injured (generally items carried by an invisible creature become invisible, to include arrows lodged into them)

It's only 1d4+9 for the crit, 14d4 is from Spellfire Channeling (based off of Arcane Strike feat)

Edit: Max damage on the confirm crit roll wow. Total Damage (assuming 33 hits AC) 63 (minus DR)

Edit 2: I'll wait until morning (way to late for me rn) but no show from Nova then I'll be spending 2 SfEL on each standing Warrior to heal them 2d6+2 each (if I need to roll for each I will) Gn yall

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## Yas392

Yeah. Blanc is not acting yet until Yohaan and the others get out of the way.

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## Dieuoffire

> Are the archers shooting now or later?


Last round archers held their action. This means that they have a new initiative per holding action rules.




> Though I have to admit, how exactly are you doing 15d4 damage? That's quite a lot of damage for a dagger attack.


This is what I mean, your character can now use a huge number of SFel all at once. At 9th level a wizard should be able to deal only that kind of damage once per day(as a sudden max) but you can do it several times a day. You should be closer to a warlocks ability (near endless, but lesser damage) plus you can use healing as a free action (should be swift) that is better than a cleric at this level. Maybe we should limit your character to 15 SFel per round? 

I mean you basically just dropped a significant heal (maximized cure critical, quickened) and damage (maximized scorching ray? 5th level being the highest the wizard only can do this once per day.) all at once. That is a bit OP. Not the worst but doing one would have been impressive. Both is over the top. A caster would have had to burn all their casting to do that, but you will be back to it several times a day.

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## Yas392

> Last round archers held their action. This means that they have a new initiative per holding action rules.


So they now act on Tide's initiative or after him?

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## Dieuoffire

Assuming that yohaan does move

*AoO* - (1d20+19)[*31*]
P. Attack for 10 (lightly armored, huge damage.)
[Roll=damage]3d6+=7[/roll]

Must admit,  I would have gone defensive on the attack and went with better AC.

----------


## Dieuoffire

*damage* - (3d6+47)[*59*]

Why do I keep saying dice? Wrong site for that.

The archers act immediately after tide.

----------


## MagneticDragon

> Maybe we should limit your character to 15 SFel per round? 
> 
> I mean you basically just dropped a significant heal (maximized cure critical, quickened) and damage (maximized scorching ray? 5th level being the highest the wizard only can do this once per day.) all at once. That is a bit OP. Not the worst but doing one would have been impressive. Both is over the top. A caster would have had to burn all their casting to do that, but you will be back to it several times a day.


The DM has a pretty good point honestly. That much healing _and_ that much damage in one turn is nothing to sneeze at. Not when Spellfire is not exactly the hardest resource to recover, especially as Ferrous has Invocations, which are at-will spell-like-abilities. Admittedly, it is debatable whether or not Shatter would be an appropriate target, as it focuses on items, not people. But even if that's not the case, I'm going to be picking up a dispel magic invocation eventually, and that will most definitely to the job... and that's if you don't have any items or can turn to other party members to do the same already.

Honestly, I think the Cap that exists on how many spellfire levels can be used at once should also apply to the number of spellfire levels you can use per round. That way, you have to decide whether or not to nova with a single ability or split it between different abilities round per round. Which adds a great tactical element to the class, and allows for the number of spellfire levels one can use each turn to grow over time as you get stronger and better magic items.

Finally. I think Healing Touch should be a Swift Action, not a Free Action. I don't know what other swift actions you might have, but at the very least, such a potentially potent healing ability should cost _a_ action, even if it is only a swift action.

----------


## Yas392

Blanc is going to delay until Tide has gone but before the Ogres and Ogre Archers act.

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## Dieuoffire

Hey correct me if I am wrong but if the ability for the spellfire strike is like arcane strike it has a limit. Arcane strike cannot give a bigger bonus than your BAB. 

That seems pretty reasonable to me. 

Thoughts?

----------


## Cassus

To help with clarity, what do people think of posting the initiative count at the top of each post?  Or perhaps having a list of everything in the combat sorted by initiative count that people update and include in each post?  I'm chomping at the bit, but I'm not sure if it's 6 or if we're waiting on more from 9.

----------


## Dieuoffire

I believe we are waiting for Blanc to go and Yohaan to finish movement. 

@Tide and Blanc: just be sure about your actions there are 6 archers with buffs that are going right after Tide. If you are still in range, they might drop both of you. The Ogres will not make the mistake of thinking PCs will not get back up a another time. 

@blanc 
Toboruk is on one side of the Ogre, Tide on the other. Both are still injured. Toboruk less so now.

Please be aware of the incoming third wave of enemies dire wolves are not as strong, but they do matter.

----------


## Cassus

Believe me, I know.  My plan for the turn is to get Tide and as many other PCs as possible out of ground zero.

----------


## MagneticDragon

Not to mention I had got out Liquid Smoke specifically to make cover as soon as possible. It could be now, or it could be on the retreat to make it harder for the arrows to effect us. Either way, I have my 10ft square of concealment ready to go as soon as the turn comes back around.

... Which, brings up a question. If the Collar of Perpetual Attendance is constant, rather than at-will like I believed. How exactly does the 25ft range of the Unseen Servant work? If it is 25ft away from me, and I move 60ft in the opposite direction. Does it basically move 60ft to stay within range? Or would it vanish, dropping all items, and immediately reform 25ft away after I have stopped moving?

----------


## D&DPrinceTandem

> Last round archers held their action. This means that they have a new initiative per holding action rules.
> 
> 
> 
> This is what I mean, your character can now use a huge number of SFel all at once. At 9th level a wizard should be able to deal only that kind of damage once per day(as a sudden max) but you can do it several times a day. You should be closer to a warlocks ability (near endless, but lesser damage) plus you can use healing as a free action (should be swift) that is better than a cleric at this level. Maybe we should limit your character to 15 SFel per round? 
> 
> I mean you basically just dropped a significant heal (maximized cure critical, quickened) and damage (maximized scorching ray? 5th level being the highest the wizard only can do this once per day.) all at once. That is a bit OP. Not the worst but doing one would have been impressive. Both is over the top. A caster would have had to burn all their casting to do that, but you will be back to it several times a day.


1) Yohaan got lucky with her damage, it was above average damage rolls and a critical. If the excuse that monster can down a player with one swing is (it got luck) then so can the same argument be made for a player. Less lucky rolls result in subpar results. 
2) Damage should have been 12d4, not 15d4 (miss calculated because i intended to use the full 14 SfEL to start but changed my mind to 11) minus (3d4)[*10*] from 63 to get the true result of the damage for the attack
3) How is just over 50 (after corrections are made) damage in a standard action Critical when other players and NPCs are dishing damage in the upper double digits (91 from the Ogre, 98 for Toboruk)? 
3) An optimized Psion of 9th level can dish out 9d6 damage for 9 out of 100+ pp per day (that with simple tricks can be regenerated) on a Crit this would effectively be 18d6 damage. They are expending abt 9% of there normal energy reserves to do so in a round. That same Psion of 9th level can effectively give itself 90 additional hp for the same cost and is only a 3 lvl PrC dip (to which at this level it could be that many lvls deep into without cheese) to do it for others.
4) If you can undo the effects of my healing with a single attack and "good luck" then I wouldn't consider it significant by any means. It effectively saved a player from one attack. From a creature that can make at least two attacks in a full round action, with more creatures in range to pile on damage.

Second point on healing: Healing in combat is known to be incredibly underpowered and practically useless in most games. The higher powered the game (such as this one) the less likely it is to be useful and more components are needed to make it useful in combat. In this game we have proven that in 1 round a single creature can dish triple digit damage in a turn. Thus far I can only heal on average 63 damage per turn (less if i want to be useful to combat in a proactive way)
I do conceed that some type of action should be required. Perhaps a Swift action to activate the healing and rolling the damage healed, then a free action to actually heal any target until the next turn(limiting it to one sum total in a round, on average 4.5*the max). This pool would then function as a free action lay on hands for that round, any not spent would dissipate (though i doubt this would ever happen because I'm probably going to spend whatever i have left to heal myself from all the AoOs I am provoking by getting in range to those who have taken damage).
Another Note to healing, if the archer's in round are any example of what the non-leader ogres can do, they were dishing out an average of 20 damage per attack and 40 damage per turn each. With 6 of them that's about 240 damage in a turn, far exceeding anything I doing with the proposed 15/turn limit (even if a focus all on healing and 
As a basic problem in D&D combat, a healer who can only heal in combat and can't match the rate of damage done by the enemy only prolongs the combat, doing nothing to end it quicker. The more entire rounds and resources I dedicate to keeping my party members alive, the less time im spending actually ending the combat. The longer the combat goes, the more damage the bad guys deal. The reason for the Free action heals (and now Swift action heals) to combat this problem of prolonging the beating is because Then it opens up the rest of the turn to actual progressive action. No matter what is said, healing is reactionary.
I cannot agree with a per round limit as it stands. I do not intend to hyper play the mechanics of Spellfire and accumulate excessive SfEL outside of combat (the only acception being my generating the Versatile Restoration Pool so that I may at least keep myself up during combat). As you can tell I have not done any passive effects to increase my spellfire pool on downtime (like it seems you think i am). I can, but I don't. If the Limit is changed to 15 per round, then this is something I will have to do to even hold a candle in the OP world we are being set in. If it were changed to a per round limit, then I would suggest reverting to the original published limit of (CON SCORE) instead of arbitrarily choosing 15. Simply know that I can only assume that it is expected of me to take every action to keep the pool at maximum (60/20) until the beginning of each turn.

If we do change to the [Swift action Active, Free action use] heal and the (CON SCORE) per Turn limit then I instead spent 11 SfEL on the attack (math already done above) and 9 on healing (Result (9d6+9)[*45*]) of which I will wait to distribute after seeing the result of the roll.

If the compromise can't be reached then I don't think Yohaan will contribute to the combat of this campaign in a meaningful and beneficial way that is more than (fly around get hit and die miraculously) and would prefer to ask to roll up a new character (no homebrew, lvl 8 if need be). I have found that my own personal knowledge of Military and Combat (I'm a Vet) kinda making it hard (yet bearable) to rp anyways so I wouldn't be too hurt to change to another more helpful character.

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## MagneticDragon

I _think_ the main issue wasn't that you did so much damage in the turn, or that you healed so much HP at once. But you were capable of doing _both_ in a single turn, and still having actions left over to fly around and provoke an attack of opportunity. 

It's not one or the other that is the issue, it's being capable of doing both at the same time. That's why a per-round limitation was suggested. Not to cap how many levels of spellfire you can force into a single attack or into the healing ability that you use. But in order to make it so that you aren't able to easily use both at the same time, or other spellfire abilities and the healing after we gain more levels and you unlock more abilities.

I am hardly an experienced 3.5 player however, so take my opinions on this matter with a grain of salt.  All that is quite clear to me that my Tall Tale is far and away underpowered compared to a significant amount of homebrew used by other classes.

That, and I have likely not being using it as effectively as I could so far.

----------


## Dieuoffire

@Cassus 
Just remembered that Blanc is holding; we only were waiting for Yohaans move. 

@MagneticDragon
If the servant goes outside of range it disappears, no matter if you moved or they did. It would reform as a free action on your next turn after it disappeared. So it would be gone for a round basically. 

@D&DPrinceTandem and Magnetic
What Magnetic said was right. It was not any single ability was too much; it was that they were all together too much.
Of course D&DPrince has good points too. Luck does have a factor and you really are not above some characters. 
What I am starting to think is that The class is just Tiered too low. You keep comparing yourself with optimized T1 characters. So I am beginning to think that if I raised my expectations to that of a T1 character (with mostly Optimized build). I would probably think that you are just about on scale. 
I think If we allow the same limits that you already have and we adjust it by making the healing a swift action. I will switch my thinking to having you be a T1 character and I would be much more accepting of it. (My own perception of Too powerful is based off of other classes in your Tier. Moving up a level changes my perception)
Would this be reasonable? Not too powerful overall, Just too versatile with power for T2. 

@MagneticDragon
Optimization takes time to figure out. I would say that you are on your way, just need to put the pieces in place.

@Everyone. 
Aralis seems to be checking out and Callen already is. I am going to be looking at bringing in two more PCs; maybe three PCs just to be on the safe side. I will probably have them back in town when you return.

@D&DPrince
Finish your move and Tide will take his, Then Blanc.

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## MagneticDragon

So, thanks to the fact I have slowly been exploring there Spheres of Power and Spheres of Might for other games, I have come across an item that could be _extremely_ useful for my character. Specifically, Vial Arrows, which allows me to trade away damage with an arrow in order to use it as a delivery for my liquid alchemical items. Is there any chance I may make use of Vial Arrows going forwards?

The Flask Launcher will still be used, especially as the +2d6 damage on direct hit will likely only work when I am throwing my grenade-like weapons, which I believe the Flask Launcher will count as? But when it comes to using my alchemical items from a medium-to-long range, which seems to be a problem, Vial Arrows seem like the perfect delivery system to me. 




> @MagneticDragon
> If the servant goes outside of range it disappears, no matter if you moved or they did. It would reform as a free action on your next turn after it disappeared. So it would be gone for a round basically.


Alright, that is fair.

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## D&DPrinceTandem

> What I am starting to think is that The class is just Tiered too low. You keep comparing yourself with optimized T1 characters. So I am beginning to think that if I raised my expectations to that of a T1 character (with mostly Optimized build). I would probably think that you are just about on scale. 
> I think If we allow the same limits that you already have and we adjust it by making the healing a swift action. I will switch my thinking to having you be a T1 character and I would be much more accepting of it. (My own perception of Too powerful is based off of other classes in your Tier. Moving up a level changes my perception)
> Would this be reasonable? Not too powerful overall, Just too versatile with power for T2.


 I think you need either need to re-up on your Tier 2 and 1 lists or change your views on the Power of Tier 2 classes. I have never compared my build to T1 class, you on the other hand keep comparing it to Clerics and Wizards. Psions are solidly tier 2 classes and they them selves are more versatile and potentially more powerful then the Spellfire adept can be (with a larger variety (abt 2 powers per lvl), more choices (larger lists of powers), and arguably better token abilities (Vigor (constant 45 or effective 90 temp hp at a thought), Astral Construct (an entire set of actions in a turn, also anyone attacking it is not attacking a party member), and Crystal Shard (saveless, SRless, ranged touch magical Damage) to name a few)

Id rather play a Tier 2 Psion then a Tier 1 Spellfire Adept. If you look at the Tier 1 classes they are all heavily supported by a plethora of published material to add to an already liberal structure (Artificers can create any magic item money and time can fund, a Cleric as tens of domains and hundreds if not thousands of spells the can choose from on any given day. Wizards and Archivists can do the same with enough time, StP Erudites can do the same but with the plus side of using Psionic rules and still having access to Psionic Powers.  The difference between Tier 1s and 2s is a prefix. Tier 2s can do Anything. Tier 1s can do Everything. 
*Spoiler: Tiers and their Titles*
Show

1: Everything Really good [StP Erudites, Wizards, Clerics]
2: Anything Really good [Psions, Sorcerers, Favored Souls]
3: Anything // Something Really good  [Anything with 9th lvl effects that isnt tier 1/2 or warmage/healers, Martial Adepts, Gish Casters (Mystic Ranger/Paladin, Psychic Warriors, Bards, Duskblades)]
4: Something kinda Good. [4th lvl casters (Ranger/Paladin/Hexblades), most martial classes (Barbs, Fighters) and the monkeys (Rogues, Factotums, Scouts)]
5: Something  [anything that poorly replicates a T4 without adding to it as well as Healers (because healing is Horrible in D&D anyway)]
6: practically nothing // NPC  (NPC classes and Truenamers)] 

You said this would be high powered, but every action youve taken against the class thus far would leave Yohaan dead in combat in the next round without significant uncharacteristic actions (fleeing innocents to die a death that I have already seen the result of in the pyres marking the hellblades territories). This leads me to understand either Yohaan just isnt the kind of character you want in the game or we where never supposed to survive this fight. If either is the case I ask to be allowed to either rebuild Yohaan as a Psion or Build a new Psion to play [a tier 2 class] or even a Psychic Warrior [a tier 3 class]

Yohaan is moving, she takes the damage, Given that she takes more than 50 damage from one attack fort save vs massive damage (1d20+11)[*26*]. In hopes that she survives and is not murdered outright she will send *31* points of healing to Tide spend *14* healing her own new wound and the rest of her Versatile Restoration *45*. Assuming she doesnt fail to fort save she is at 61/61 hp. 

*OOC description of what Yohan is doing IC*
She will move; Her movement is intended to tail the rear of the Heroes Army forces in their retreat. She knows wolves are coming and these forces are already degraded escape as is. She is expect a volley of arrows to come after her because she looks as though she is attempting to aid an escape, as well as is an airborne threat. This is intentional because if they are attacking her they arent attacking the weaker friendlies. At least she knows she can take abt 3 20dmg arrows to the back, she is very doubtful that the Heroes army soldiers could say the same. 

Finally, a disclaimer; my computer decided to kick the bucket, I apologize for the slow posting (posting this on my phone now). Also sry if the formatting on this post is wack, Ill be getting a new computer soon so this shouldnt be a long setback set back and Ill be posting

----------


## MagneticDragon

Hmmm, I do have to agree that the Spellfire Adept is not a T1 class. I will admit, the idea of the free action healing alongside the damage, both melee and range, did concern me. But after looking into the class in more detail... I generally believe that the Spellfire Adept is not a Tier 1 class, or even a Tier 2 class for that matter. But simply a rather strong Tier 3 class.

From the looks of the Tier List, Tier 3 classes are described as doing 'one thing well while still being useful when that one thing is not appropriate', and from the looks of the Spellfire Adept, it is good at two things, damage and healing, and nothing else. It is not a sorcerer or wizard, who can bring powerful battlefield control spells such as Wall of Stone, Solid Fog, or Evards Black Tentacles. They are not a druid, able to bring out powerful summons to change the tide of battle and basically gain a lot of extra healing for free. Nor are they able to use powerful utility spells such as scry, teleportation, or resurrection. A Spellfire Adept can deal decent damage with their attacks, either from range or melee, and they can enchant themselves decently well, removing the need for some of the Big 6. They can even deal with poisons, diseases and ability damage with their healing. But that's it.

Damage and Healing are useful, yes. But with unreliable debuffing, little battlefield control or AoE damage, and no further utility to bring to the table. I honestly have to agree with PrinceTandem about the Tier of their class. I do believe that being able to deal so much damage _and_ so much healing in the same turn was a bit worrisome, but that's it...

And I do have to ask, was the Channel Spellstrike feature changed Tandem? As it now says it is limited to a number of spellfire levels equal to your BAB, which, as you are a low BAB class, would only be 4 Spellfire levels for a total of 4d4 damage. Far less than the 13 you threw down last time.

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## Yas392

Also agree that it is tier 3 than tier 2. The class lacks the standards of the base tier 2 classes for reasons that Magnetic put up above. I read it as a more suped up version of a warlock that is comparable to the likes of TOB classes like crusader.

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## Cassus

There might be a bit of a disconnect here.

The Tier system is less about maximum power and more about versatility-- Wizards are Tier 1 not because they have four-digit damage output but because they can BOTH deal ~10 Int damage on demand AND teleport AND see the future, etc.  Damage record builds often center on Barbarians and other lower-tier classes rather than Tier 1.

So it's entirely possible for a class to be both Tier 3 (does one thing very well) and massively overpowered (if that "one thing" is, say, dealing 1000 undodgeable damage as a repeatable standard action).  I'm not saying this is true for the spellfire adept, mind you-- I'm just pointing out that the real question that should be discussed is, "Is the Spellfire Adept more or less powerful than the other PC classes in the game?"



Also...  it's been a literal real-world week since my last turn in combat, and I'm still waiting.  Anyone have suggestions on how to make this not happen in the future?  Maybe group initiative or time limits or something?

----------


## D&DPrinceTandem

> Also...  it's been a literal real-world week since my last turn in combat, and I'm still waiting.  Anyone have suggestions on how to make this not happen in the future?  Maybe group initiative or time limits or something?


Suggest Group Init w/ somewhere between 3-5 day time limit. Sry for slowness on my end.

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## MagneticDragon

To be fair, between the balance conversation around the Spellfire Adept, as well as the issues with numerous players leaving the game either without warning or having to end up dropping the game for unforeseen reasons. We have had a lot of reasons not to be quick in the posting.

But, yes. I do agree that block initiative would be for the best. Everyone before the enemies goes at once, then the enemies, then everyone else. People can still delay, of course, but it means we can post whenever we please, instead of having to wait for others to go.

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## D&DPrinceTandem

> And I do have to ask, was the Channel Spellstrike feature changed Tandem? As it now says it is limited to a number of spellfire levels equal to your BAB, which, as you are a low BAB class, would only be 4 Spellfire levels for a total of 4d4 damage. Far less than the 13 you threw down last time.


With all the changes this game has made to the class I had miss remembered that rule i made, but it should be clear that for the purpose of spellfire abilities a LVL 4 or greater SfA, their BAB equals their Adept lvl (this does not grant iterative attacks) [Sf fighting style ability] so the max would have been 9
@DM because of this the attack (should a 31 hit) deals
53 - (2d4)[*7*] = *46* dmg total

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## MagneticDragon

Ah right. That _does_ make sense honestly.

Maybe you should put a special beneath it, so that fact is clear, for anyone else who might want to make use of it?

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## Dieuoffire

@Magnetic Dragon
Vial Arrows as a single use item that contains another single use item in it I think that would be an acceptable cost for the additional range. The flask launcher is also available. I will say that the local town could have those available. 

@D&DPrincetandem
I am not used to being wrong very often, but you do make valid points. Re-reading the argument I am willing to say that T2-T3 would be reasonable. Your ability to recharge and do these power rounds more than once a day made me question T1; however you cant do so in the same encounter, That matters a lot. I also went and relooked at a few T1 builds; it reminded me of how broken they can be. You are strong, but not broken like a T1. 
Actions Noted. HP full up. You are running with the retreating (Fleeing) army.

@MagneticDragon and Yas392
High T3? Maybe but I think you are close to the line... Of course this campaign may prove either of us wrong yet.

@Magneticdragon, D&DPrinceTandem, Yas392
Many times I error on the too powerful side with custom because it is an unknown factor; grey areas that I dont want to find out later will break the game. I have found it is easier to relax rules later (makes players happy) than to restrict players later (makes them angry). Forgive my caution but there are a lot of custom option in play. (Everyone is custom it seems.)

So to Be clear, as of Right now, You are T3. 

@Cassus
You can go. I have Yohaans move now and you are up.

@D&DPrincetandem
46 Damage noted. 

@Everyone
I wrote this before checking to IC board. Might have to edit if there is a post that needs to be addressed. Also three (I hope) new PCs will be joining when you guys can get back to town.

Having now read the IC thread. I can say, I think things are going well (even though they don't look it.)

The idea here was for characters, having witnessed the shear brutality and effectiveness of this group, realize the frightening potential of their enemy. They PCs need one another. NEED, specifically the need to survive, often makes makeshift allies who then learn respect for one another. 

I hope I did not railroad anyone here, but this I thought it made a good story of personal growth for Characters to have to swallow their pride a little and say "we need one another." We don't have to like one another but you do need one another. 

BTW, I'm a movie fan. I don't want to go too far but, anyone seen Remember The Titans? At the football camp when Coach Boon gives the speech? Although this is not the same it is in the same direction. Half of the "Army of Heroes" died for their pride/hatred (the group doesn't yet have hate towards each other but offenses, yes.) Believing their army could face the enemy without The PCs. 

"You listen, take a lesson for from the dead if we don't come together... We too will be destroyed."

Forgive me from stealing from good dramatic movie scenes. I just want to tell a story of characters learning, growing and becoming Heroes that are more than murder hoboes.

Also This is good justification for henchmen and for rumors to stat how the PCs were right, maybe they should be listened too... (etc.) 20 survivors saying "you where right, you saved us!" doesn't hurt. 

:) Hope everyone is enjoying it so far. (Win or lose it is how you play the game that matters!)

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## Yas392

The bard will need some strong stuff in the tavern after seeing the massacre. :)

As for block initiative, yeah from me. Combat flows faster that way.

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## MagneticDragon

Perhaps the intention might have been 'everyone needs to work together', but, genuinely. That is not going to be the lesson that Ferrous takes from this disaster.

As far as he is concerned, the situation has devolved thanks to miscommunication and a lack of cohesion, a complete lack of leadership. Of someone stepping up and taking charge. Because of this, Ferrous is not going to be too bothered about all of the player characters coming together into a single team. But is instead going to step up and make himself the leader. That discussing their ideas and plans took too long, and they need a singular voice to direct people and make snap decisions, and he believes he should be that person, as he understands the disaster was due to the lack of leadership, and not a lack of working together.

----------


## Yas392

Is Tide moving to tag Team Fey? Blanc is 45 ft from Yohaan previously before she moved.

----------


## Book Wombat

Hello! Esme shall talk in this nice shade of *blue* if it's fine, since the greens are aplenty. 
We'll be seeing each other in town I guess.

----------


## Cassus

I actually wrote the wrong reach, should be 30, editing now.

Also, welcome,  Esme!

----------


## Yas392

@Dieuoffice Can we get an updated version of the map uploaded to imgur (helps those who can't access xps document)? I am not even sure of the party's positions after round 3. I know Yohaan moved and Blanc at the same position.

@Book Wombat Good to see you on board.

@Cassus Need confirmation whether Tide is moving before tagging for dimension door. Team Fey is out of his reach if I recall. He spent free and standard but not move.

----------


## Cassus

No, Tide is not moving.  He'd provoke AoOs from all the no longer dazed ogres.

----------


## Dieuoffire

I've got your Dimension door marked. I will assume Toboruk wants to go with you, baring him posting that he does not. 

Blanc is up. Tide is of the way and Toboruk too, the area is clear. However I would recommend you get some (as much as you can) kind of cover/ range bonus those Ogre Archers are targeting you first.

----------


## Cassus

Is that addressed to me?

If Tide is not able to Dimension Door to respectable cover, he does also have his move action still and would use that to not be a target until he's had time to grow new bones.

----------


## Novabomb

Toboruk definitely will not mind an assist in the retreat.

----------


## Yas392

> I've got your Dimension door marked. I will assume Toboruk wants to go with you, baring him posting that he does not. 
> 
> Blanc is up. Tide is of the way and Toboruk too, the area is clear. *However I would recommend you get some (as much as you can) kind of cover/ range bonus those Ogre Archers are targeting you first.*


Is Bold part addressed to her?

----------


## MagneticDragon

A map for Round 5 would be appreciated, especially as I have to figure out what to do during my turn. That, and I'm somewhat hoping I get targeting by the archers a bit. I've got Deflect Arrows and I want to make use of it dang it.

That aside. Welcome Book Wombat, glad to have you with us. Hopefully, we'll retreat to town soon enough for you to join. And Novabomb, glad to see your post, confirming that you are staying with us.

----------


## Yas392

Not sure if Puck's initiative is higher or lower (seems niw18 have not roll one for him). If he is higher, I will be having Blanc wait til his action gone before she goes. She shouted "Retreat." Whether he heeds it or not has yet to be seen.

----------


## Dieuoffire

> Is that addressed to me?
> 
> If Tide is not able to Dimension Door to respectable cover, he does also have his move action still and would use that to not be a target until he's had time to grow new bones.


Tide can Dimension door. I was warning to Blanc




> Is Bold part addressed to her?


yes, The Ogre leader pointed to her first to call in the next volley.




> A map for Round 5 would be appreciated, especially as I have to figure out what to do during my turn. That, and I'm somewhat hoping I get targeting by the archers a bit. I've got Deflect Arrows and I want to make use of it dang it.
> 
> That aside. Welcome Book Wombat, glad to have you with us. Hopefully, we'll retreat to town soon enough for you to join. And Novabomb, glad to see your post, confirming that you are staying with us.


I will have a map posted soon and wish I could five a way to upload it better. I am not on imgur. was going to post the new map at the sart of the round.




> Not sure if Puck's initiative is higher or lower (seems niw18 have not roll one for him). If he is higher, I will be having Blanc wait til his action gone before she goes. She shouted "Retreat." Whether he heeds it or not has yet to be seen.


Puck is at init 18. Puck already went this round. it is just you and then 7 Ogre archers.

----------


## Cassus

> I will have a map posted soon and wish I could five a way to upload it better. I am not on imgur. was going to post the new map at the sart of the round.


Have you considered a persistent online virtual tabletop?  That way, you could adjust the map on an ongoing basis and wouldn't need to repeatedly upload images or even post a link more than once.  https://www.owlbear.rodeo/ will let you do that without needing to create an account or anything.

----------


## Yas392

> Tide can Dimension door. I was warning to Blanc
> 
> 
> yes, The Ogre leader pointed to her first to call in the next volley.
> 
> 
> I will have a map posted soon and wish I could five a way to upload it better. I am not on imgur. was going to post the new map at the sart of the round.
> 
> 
> Puck is at init 18. Puck already went this round. it is just you and then 7 Ogre archers.


Target is Blanc then Puck; OK. 

If you post in imgur, you can link the map from there by copying the link they produce (direct or URL link). Alternatively, you can also do what Cassus suggested or use Roll 20 for virtual tabletop.

Is Puck out of the way of Blanc's 180 ft cone AoE? Is 80 ft Fly enough to get into cover? Is Yohaan or Puck behind cover; you said area clear which hints to me that Puck is out of her range of fire? I have Blanc's action ready. It is either CC Hellblades or Run action (which she will cover 350-380 ft as full round action) depending on Puck and Yohaan's condition/cover/position.

----------


## MagneticDragon

> I will have a map posted soon and wish I could five a way to upload it better. I am not on imgur. was going to post the new map at the sart of the round.


You have access to google drive right?

Just make a google sheet and share that. It updates automatically, so you'll only need to share it once.

----------


## Dieuoffire

> Have you considered a persistent online virtual tabletop?  That way, you could adjust the map on an ongoing basis and wouldn't need to repeatedly upload images or even post a link more than once.  https://www.owlbear.rodeo/ will let you do that without needing to create an account or anything.


Haven't, Yet.



> Target is Blanc then Puck; OK. 
> 
> If you post in imgur, you can link the map from there by copying the link they produce (direct or URL link). Alternatively, you can also do what Cassus suggested or use Roll 20 for virtual tabletop.
> 
> Is Puck out of the way of Blanc's 180 ft cone AoE? Is 80 ft Fly enough to get into cover? Is Yohaan or Puck behind cover; you said area clear which hints to me that Puck is out of her range of fire? I have Blanc's action ready. It is either CC Hellblades or Run action (which she will cover 350-380 ft as full round action) depending on Puck and Yohaan's condition/cover/position.


I do need to start using one of them. 

Puck is our of her way, but since you are only 45 feet up. You can't get all seven of the Ogres at your angle. if my math is right you either miss the back two or the front one. 




> You have access to google drive right?
> 
> Just make a google sheet and share that. It updates automatically, so you'll only need to share it once.


Thought about that but my google drive I use for work, and I really try to go out of my way to keep my professional and personal separate. What it comes down to is I'm lazy and don't want yet another account for gaming. But I may have to give in and do so.

----------


## Yas392

> Puck is our of her way, but since you are only 45 feet up. You can't get all seven of the Ogres at your angle. if my math is right you either miss the back two or the front one.


Ogres: Archer or meat shield? I am assuming meat shield on the front. Still needs answer on Yohaan's total cover or her normal move 80 ft can go into total cover. Blanc prioritized cover when she arrived at her exact spot. Since Puck go first before the Ogres, Blanc will not need to worry about him if he heeds her exclamation and run.

*EDIT:* OK. Ignore the bit about Yohaan. She is visible. Guess Hard CC on Ogres & co.

----------


## Dieuoffire

@yas392
Puck did not go into cover. He already had his turn this round. you can reach total cover in 80 ft move. it would be behind one of the caravans.

I know you prioritized cover but there was not much to be had, you were moving towards the forested area, but not much cover was to be had at 45 ft up. my notes say you have 25% cover. (From a tree that was not quite big enough.)

That may or may not be enough to save you.

@everyone
Sorry yesterday got busy. I try to respond daily but some days life beats the gaming right out of me. (Need a good restoration spell.)

----------


## Yas392

> @yas392
> Puck did not go into cover. He already had his turn this round. you can reach total cover in 80 ft move. it would be behind one of the caravans.
> 
> I know you prioritized cover but there was not much to be had, you were moving towards the forested area, but not much cover was to be had at 45 ft up. my notes say you have 25% cover. (From a tree that was not quite big enough.)
> 
> That may or may not be enough to save you.
> 
> @everyone
> Sorry yesterday got busy. I try to respond daily but some days life beats the gaming right out of me. (Need a good restoration spell.)


Blanc will target all archers so 11 targets. Going to need an accurate map soon. The current one we have is misleading (each square is not 5 ft/square). 

Is the caravan moving her away if she hides behind it? Total Cover against arrows or all attacks? If arrows, will she be in the threat range of Ghost Tiger? She will prioritize that if the total cover protects against everything.

45 ft up is incorrect. She is 45 ft from Yohaan before she moves and 30 ft above ground. For the normal movement to the forest covers, she flew back 90 ft (5 ft cost from flying backwards, 60 ft regular movement with the remaining 15 ft doubled to 30 ft from descending to 15 ft above ground (she is 30 ft above ground before she move) from the remaining 75 ft worth of movement). If she does prioritized cover over total cover, does she still get the +4 AC?

*EDIT:* Ignore my statement about Ghost Tiger in OOC and IC. It is listed as ally.

*EDIT2:* Will edit Blanc's post once the questions are answered.

----------


## Dieuoffire

For some reason the squares resized when I changed formats. Sorry. 

I believe I put you 10 feet back and 45 feet up. 

Instead you want to be 45 feet back and 30 feet up? That would put you behind the western most wagon. That space would be able to hit all of the melee ogres but none of the Archers.  43 squares (215 ft) from hitting the Archers. 

However you would definitely strike Puck.

Let me put up a new map with you in place behind the wagon (and 30 ft up). I am also going to add grid alphanumerics. 

Then you can tell me with grid reference where you wanted to move etc. 

Ok, Screw it I will delete it off of my drive later but for now 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...f=true&sd=true

----------


## Yas392

> For some reason the squares resized when I changed formats. Sorry. 
> 
> I believe I put you 10 feet back and 45 feet up. 
> 
> Instead you want to be 45 feet back and 30 feet up? That would put you behind the western most wagon. That space would be able to hit all of the melee ogres but none of the Archers.  43 squares (215 ft) from hitting the Archers. 
> 
> However you would definitely strike Puck.
> 
> Let me put up a new map with you in place behind the wagon (and 30 ft up). I am also going to add grid alphanumerics. 
> ...


Positions are in disarray in this battle.  :Small Tongue: 

For now, I will go with your interpretation of her position to hit the archers then fall back to total cover. There is another game I am in that DM positions my character to my favor so I am open to whatever advantages you give Blanc. In that case, Blanc will fly backwards (-5 ft; 75 ft remaining). If she combine movement and descending (once she is out of melee ogre range) for her remaining 75 ft, she can cover up to 100 ft+ which would be more than enough to get her into total cover behind caravan.

The caravan is moving her away, right? Still waiting for answer on free movement.

----------


## Dieuoffire

Sorry about that. I will just keep a google sheet from the beginning next time. 

So you want to use the cone and then retreat to safety? That is fine.

----------


## Yas392

> Sorry about that. I will just keep a google sheet from the beginning next time. 
> 
> So you want to use the cone and then retreat to safety? That is fine.


Yes. Is the caravan moving her away on the horse's turn?

----------


## Dieuoffire

two things 
1 the caravan is not moving. everyone got out to fight. the horses are just sitting there.

2 Something seemed off about that maneuver. So I looked it up: 
The Norther Wind is a _full round action to initiate._ Like casting a spell this means that you cannot move, you cannot get cover, it will happen right before the beginning of your next turn. In other words after all the bad guys take their shots at you. 

I will give you a time to reconsider your actions. this is a big difference. (Not sure you will survive being there for a whole round.) But please don't take too long, we (Me, sorry all) have kept others waiting for too long.

----------


## Yas392

> two things 
> 1 the caravan is not moving. everyone got out to fight. the horses are just sitting there.
> 
> 2 Something seemed off about that maneuver. So I looked it up: 
> The Norther Wind is a _full round action to initiate._ Like casting a spell this means that you cannot move, you cannot get cover, it will happen right before the beginning of your next turn. In other words after all the bad guys take their shots at you. 
> 
> I will give you a time to reconsider your actions. this is a big difference. (Not sure you will survive being there for a whole round.) But please don't take too long, we (Me, sorry all) have kept others waiting for too long.


1 round and 1 full-round action have different meanings. Blanc's maneuver does not have summon monster cast time when the action consumes her move and standard. 

That changes everything. Can three 5 ft frost pillar that extends up 90 ft high create total cover for Puck and Yohaan? If so, she will use that and fly behind caravan. She will full-round action run 330 ft back, descending behind cover if there is any (farthest caravan?) if it is better than hiding behind closest caravan or if frost pillar maneuver cannot provide total cover to Yohaan and Puck.

----------


## MagneticDragon

Okay, so according to the srd on combat modifiers. Total Cover applies when the Line of Effect is completely cut off from the people involved. Which I think means that all lines from every corner of a character's square fails to be uninterrupted when aiming at any corner of an enemies' square... if that makes sense?

With the Wagon in place. A single, 5ft wide, 90ft tall pillar would grant Total Cover to Yohaan, _except_ for the archer at the top of the map. But even then, she will have cover from that single archer, and one single archer is not that much of a threat.

That leaves two pillars to cover Puck, which will provide Toal Cover against all but two of the archers. Either the two archers at the top of the two archers at the bottom, depending on where the second pillar is placed. I would, bluntly, recommend that Puck is protected against the archers at the top if this is the strategy you will use. As it means that bottom archers will be firing against Puck, rather than the NPCs, and we are more likely to be able to survive this round if given some cover.

Admittedly, this is just my reading of the srd and using a piece of paper to trace the lines on the map. But I am rather confident in my calls... and I really, _really_ want to get this game moving.

----------


## Yas392

Same. I am just waiting for DM responses and responding back in a breakneck pace so I can get this battle over with. The pillars are there to scatter the archers and prevent them from full-attacking in the worst scenario.

----------


## Dieuoffire

Sorry about taking so long.

I am not sure that the pillars of cold air are not transparent on its own.

Then I also am concerned about another thing. Does pierce magical concealment make them see through it? It is concealment granted by a magic. I would lean towards them ignoring it. (Obscuring mist, which creates something to create cover is seen through. Meaning magical secondary concealment effects are pierced too.)

Sadly I am inclined to say that for the two above reasons, i don't believe it would grant cover.

I will say however say that I am less worried about Puck than I am about Blanc, the AC difference is notable.

Edit:
Summon monster says 1 round. In casting it seems the two are synonymous.

----------


## Cassus

I blame the publishers for the confusion about rounds/actions.  Watch:




> Most spells have a casting time of 1 standard action. Others take 1 round or more, while a few require only a free action.
> 
> A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.





> Sorcerers and bards must take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than a regular spell. If a spells normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version of the spell is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. Note that this isnt the same as a spell with a 1-round casting timethe spell takes effect in the same round that you begin casting, and you arent required to continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration until your next turn. For spells with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the metamagic spell.


So the game apparently uses "1 round" to mean "A full-round action, plus up to the beginning of your next turn," because none of the publishers would spring for a thesaurus.  But the "full-round action" is just all the actions on your turn (it's the same as a fighter making a full attack or charge).

No idea about the opacity of pillars from a homebrew discipline, but the use of one word to mean several different D&D things is kinda a pet peeve of mine (like "level").

----------


## Yas392

> Sorry about taking so long.
> 
> I am not sure that the pillars of cold air are not transparent on its own.
> 
> Then I also am concerned about another thing. Does pierce magical concealment make them see through it? It is concealment granted by a magic. I would lean towards them ignoring it. (Obscuring mist, which creates something to create cover is seen through. Meaning magical secondary concealment effects are pierced too.)
> 
> Sadly I am inclined to say that for the two above reasons, i don't believe it would grant cover.
> 
> I will say however say that I am less worried about Puck than I am about Blanc, the AC difference is notable.
> ...


They are solid objects not conjured ice fog in the shape of a pillar. They can act as wall/barricades/covers in which wall is stated to be cover.

Her school maneuvers are referenced to be either extraordinary or supernatural in nature therefore pierce magic concealment does not apply to her abilities.

If Blanc is under total cover (which is behind the caravan), she cannot be targeted nor attacked by archers.

1 round and full-round action are similar (both consume a full-round action; retain swift action + 5 ft step) but not the same with 1 round effects taking up to the beginning of the next turn to manifest while full-round action effects occur this turn as supported by Cassus's post and quotations.

----------


## Dieuoffire

Ah the fun of D&D wording! 

I am not sure if your maneuver said one or the other. Either way (full round or 1 round) you would have no cover. 

If the maneuver created pillars that is fair game. Using the pillars and moving would give cover and protect for you and both Yohaan and Puck. 

So is that the way you wish to go?

Also, this round/combat is slow. Because we are figuring things out. As we get things figured out I hope this will happen less and less. (Faster turns, smoother play)

----------


## D&DPrinceTandem

Just a lil work i did to find and prove cover
As shown here, if the Ice pillars are placed strategically, Yohaan will have Full cover from all but the two northern most Archers (she will have soft cover and no cover from them going northward) while Puck will have Full cover from all Archers.

Question: What kind of wagons are these, I've been imagining this though given that these are wagons that are expressly being used for combat I understand they could also look like this.

----------


## Dieuoffire

that would work for the pillars.

The first option, or very close to it. They wanted to look like merchants and hide their troops. Not look like an army.

I would say that is a air placement of pillars.

----------


## Yas392

> Ah the fun of D&D wording! 
> 
> I am not sure if your maneuver said one or the other. Either way (full round or 1 round) you would have no cover. 
> 
> If the maneuver created pillars that is fair game. Using the pillars and moving would give cover and protect for you and both Yohaan and Puck. 
> 
> So is that the way you wish to go?
> 
> Also, this round/combat is slow. Because we are figuring things out. As we get things figured out I hope this will happen less and less. (Faster turns, smoother play)


Yeah. That is her plan.

*EDIT:* How much gap is needed between our characters and Hellblades for the battle to be over?

----------


## MagneticDragon

Okay, as the old map seems to have been deleted for some reason, instead of being updated with the movements of the archers and perhaps have the dire wolves placed on the map as well. I am afraid I will need to wait until I have the new map to examine and decide what actions Ferrous will take.

After all, there's no point of deploying the liquid smoke if I do not know where I would need to place it effectively... if I can place it somewhere effective at all for that matter.

----------


## Yas392

GM did give us an updated map.

Map

----------


## MagneticDragon

Hmmm, this is strange.

The link you provided Yas requires people to request access, which means I can't see it. But,  D&DPrinceTandem
 has linked a copy of it, and I think the way the archers are now positioned might be a good judgement of how they have moved?

If so, I should be able to make my post, even if I can't access the proper map.

----------


## Yas392

Oops. Linked the wrong one. The one by D&DPrinceTandem is the recent one instead of my link. The archer moved from the green area in response to Blanc's cover and did not do anything else on their turn which should be their new positions. 

Not sure who is owner but I requested access so that I can move Blanc on her upcoming turn.

----------


## MagneticDragon

Very well, I shall make use of this document. However, I will most likely need to make a copy of it myself, in order to use it. 

After all, the NPCs are going to be running away from the fight as fast as possible, and there isn't enough room to calculate where precisely they would be positioned (assuming they have a 120ft run speed), and to draw lines from the northern archers to them in order to figure out where I would need to place the liquid smoke to give them as much concealment as possible.

Personally, I'm curious how Tandem drew those lines at all.

----------


## Yas392

I will follow your example. It seems I found the make copy option.

----------


## Dieuoffire

> Yeah. That is her plan.
> 
> *EDIT:* How much gap is needed between our characters and Hellblades for the battle to be over?


[/QUOTE]
Enough that they don't want to chase. I am thinking about 500 feet or so. 4 range categories means they are wasting ammo. as long as they are not being tempted to attack. (For example they will not sit down if someone is effectively launching long range attacks.) 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

I think I made that one available with just the link. (So sign in etc.)

----------


## MagneticDragon

Drawing lines in Google Sheets is not an easy task...

That's my turn. I just hope the rest of the party keep on retreating, allowing Ferrous to act as bait, and doesn't try to do something silly like rescue Ferrous or continue fighting the orges. As far as I'm concerned, if everyone else just uses the Run Action to get away from the orges. Then I would be extremely happy with the turn.

Well, I wouldn't mind someone providing cover or concealment to the NPCs against the bottom orge archer group, but please, make sure you keep running first!




> Enough that they don't want to chase. I am thinking about 500 feet or so. 4 range categories means they are wasting ammo. as long as they are not being tempted to attack. (For example they will not sit down if someone is effectively launching long range attacks.) 
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
> 
> I think I made that one available with just the link. (So sign in etc.)


... Oh damn, those orges are in an entirely different position than I expected.

Edit: Okay, this way I'm able to move further away from the orges, which is nice. It also means they are more likely to move then fire, as they are currently blocking each other, but I hope I'm a nice juicy target regardless. 

There goes all my previous time calculating possible firing lines. Though at least this way I can give us better cover. One second, let me to some more drawing...

----------


## Yas392

> Enough that they don't want to chase. I am thinking about 500 feet or so. 4 range categories means they are wasting ammo. as long as they are not being tempted to attack. (For example they will not sit down if someone is effectively launching long range attacks.) 
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
> 
> I think I made that one available with just the link. (So sign in etc.)


Blanc can beeline 300+ ft per run. It will leave her open to one side and deny her dexterity. Let's hope that is enough. Or she can ask Tide for teleport.

----------


## Dieuoffire

read the posts IC, Updated the map. Puck is up. 

Also had a changing my mind. If there is good reason not to pursue fast (like enough cover to make them proceed cautiously) they will probably not pursue as far. My initial distance assumption was a distance to which they feel that you are not a threat. Things change, in this case building cover and smoke screens might make them feel like they don't want to chase you down.

Edit, puck has already stated his actions. Ogres will be up. I will have that post done soon.

----------


## Yas392

The Ogres must make will save if they are 30 ft from her. Will DC 23 (or 24 if the 1/2 level is round up) or be shaken for 1 round. If failed 5 or more, they are dazed for 1 round. If failed by 10, they are stunned.

Never Mind, I thought it could make a difference but it occurs at the end of her turn.

*@Dieuoffice* Are we using block initiative?

----------


## niw18

I will post when get home from work

----------


## D&DPrinceTandem

Fort save to not die out right from 2/3rds of her hp being lost in one attack: (1d20+11)[*26*]; DC *15
*If she survives, her *hp* will be at *23/69*. she will start her turn with *20 SFeL* and gain *3* from wellspring and finally; as stated before, she has *0 hp* left in her *versatile restoration pool*.

Edit: she survived, Post will be up shortly

----------


## Dieuoffire

> *@Dieuoffice* Are we using block initiative?


No we are not.

@everyone
You know, I know people are like "WHAT THE ?%#@!" 
but I am happy to see the character each realize that they are in this one together. Up or down they are going out of their way to help with the goal. It is actually encouraging to see the group put lives ahead of injured pride. 

The whole "almost dying every second" was not intend. Please don't think every time will be like this. (Well unless you intend on charging into every fight uninformed and in two separate disagreeing groups). I am actually enjoying the desperate attempt to save lives. It is a heroic effort to save those duped into this death trap. speaking of which does anyone have see invis up? not that it truely matters but seeing the leaders of this mess might be of interest. owever don't die to cast see invis. (That will NOT help.)

----------


## Cassus

Tide's been flicking Blindsight off and on all day; I can have it on again this action.

And no need to apologize for the cloud of death; you told us from the beginning that you didn't recommend a frontal assault on the hellblades.  Overall, this is a logical consequence of our actions... unless the ogres have been using Scent of Fear, in which case we'll need to talk about mechanics a bit once the encounter's over.  Overall, though, I'm always eagerly anticipating my turn to post and trying to figure out what to do next, but not feeling helpless, which a good combination of emotions.

----------


## Yas392

> No we are not.
> 
> @everyone
> You know, I know people are like "WHAT THE ?%#@!" 
> but I am happy to see the character each realize that they are in this one together. Up or down they are going out of their way to help with the goal. It is actually encouraging to see the group put lives ahead of injured pride. 
> 
> The whole "almost dying every second" was not intend. Please don't think every time will be like this. (Well unless you intend on charging into every fight uninformed and in two separate disagreeing groups). I am actually enjoying the desperate attempt to save lives. It is a heroic effort to save those duped into this death trap. speaking of which does anyone have see invis up? not that it truely matters but seeing the leaders of this mess might be of interest. owever don't die to cast see invis. (That will NOT help.)


Blanc is not a heroic person. She cares about her group and her potential allies (first group) because bodies hitting the floor and the need for a strategist. She will disregard Anwar & his two flunkies (they made their own beds). Saving her group in turn delaying the NPCs' death is unintentional. 

The lethality of this game is fine. Living with the choices our characters made is the sell of this game and it would not be fun if encounters do not keep our characters on their toes.

Can I ask the reason we are not using block initiative? Combat is faster. The standard initiative order is restricting us from teamwork and coordination.

----------


## MagneticDragon

> Can I ask the reason we are not using block initiative? Combat is faster. The standard initiative order is restricting us from teamwork and coordination.


If you will allow me to hazard a guess. It would be because combat so far has not been using block initiative, and they don't want to change how the initiative works in the middle of a combat encounter? I will admit, I would like to see block initiative being used now if only to help speed the situation up and allow for a hastier retreat. 

I certainly hope we will be using block initiative moving forwards.

----------


## Dieuoffire

I thought about block init. But in the beginning there was not a single party, and even the parties where split up and not exactly timing thing out. Then when things were already going down I am imagining it like, "oh crap! If we could get this together as a team we would be better." And yes, you very much would be. 

Block Init I use (more) when the party has coordinated... IMHO this [is]should[/i] feel like chaos. Which I hope the party will discuss later. I am imagining a campfire...

Wait, I am not the one running a PC. I do look forward to characters drawing together. But it is not my place to decide how that scene plays out. I always want to say more, but I don't want to write your stories, I just offer enemies and schemes to make the story your write unpredictable and interesting. 

but if everyone wants, we can switch it to block init for speed. 

Just to make sure however, there are three ways I have seen block done. 
1 highest init in the group rolls. (team pulled up by highest)
2 lowerest init in the group roll. (only as strong as your weakest link)
3 Start together (high or low) but held actions and delayed actions can, separate you out (or not).

----------


## Ripptor

I'm not IN yet, but i my favorite way of doing Block Initiative:

Enemy initiative is set at average of enemy rolls as _Target Initiative DC_All PCs roll Initiative vs _Target Initiative DC_All PCs who beats the _Target Initiative DC_ get to go in block initiative before the enemiesThen enemies go, alternating block initiative as normal from there

This boils down as any PC with a high enough Initiative roll gets one "free action" for rolling high, which is pretty much what would usually happen.

----------


## MagneticDragon

I thought Block Initiative was just rolled like usual, with the enemies being rolled with a group initiative instead of an initiative for each one of them. Then the PCs who defeated the enemy initiative all go at once, then the enemy initiative, and then the rest of the PCs.

So, in regard to the current encounter. Instead of us going Me >  Toboruk > Puck > Hellblades. It goes Me & Toboruk & Puck > Hellblades for example. 

I will admit I do not have much experience with games however, so I will leave it to more experienced parties to discuss how block initiative actually works.

----------


## Dieuoffire

so right now we would have 4 segments
1 Those who beat the melee group ogres
2 Melee ogres
3 Those who beat archer ogres but not melee ogres
4 Ogre Archers (who are currently the slowest.)

That sounds pretty reasonable. But this combat is almost over so I do not see it being as much help right now. 
Are we still waiting for Yohaan?

----------


## Yas392

Yeah. D&DPrinceTandem was going to post but I guess he forgotten or gotten busy?

*EDIT:* The block initiative does give Blanc the option to sync with Tide but since she cannot see him, she is going to run for it.

----------


## Dieuoffire

@D&DPrinceTandem:

I usually wait for players to post but since it seems that the group has decided universally to flee I am going to assume Yohaan will be joining them. Therefore I am going to have Yohaan take a simple withdraw action (double move, flight, and starting square is not threatened. -to avoid any kind of AoO. There is one Ogre that would get an AoO should you just run. The other Ogres are going to hit NPCs so Yohaan will not get hit by them.

If you want to do anything else with your turn I am happy to let you do so and we can retcon some things but I don't want the game to stall and my paranoia is telling me that it will. 

The NPC low level adventurers are also going.

Tide and Blanc can go right after. (Blanc has already announced intentions to flee.)

----------


## MagneticDragon

Well... crud.

Why were my estimations for the positions so off? Seriously, even if my predictions were not completely accurate. How did I go from calculating the distance the rearmost individual would move while running flat out, and specifically positioning Ghost in order to act as cover/bait for the archers. To having Ghost be near the _front_ of the group, and completely and utterly make all the lines I drew and predictions I made utterly meaningless?

How on earth is the rear-most individual 30ft away from where they were supposed to be? How is the front-most individual _45_ft away from where I predicted them to be? Where has this drastic loss in speed come from?

----------


## Cassus

Huh.  Block initiative now?  Alright, can do.  


...actually, I hate to be a bother, but would you mind updating the ogres' and heroes' positions?  Or would it be easier for you if I just said "Tide moves in the best way possible" and you place me?
I'm debating trying to go back and teleport out more PCs (I know Blanc is out, though, and I don't think I can see Puck), throwing wagons in the way of the ogres, or just running and trying to carry the rear wave of the "heroes" up to the front.

Also, this is the right map, right?

----------


## Yas392

Puck is up 100+ ft above ground if I recall.

----------


## Dieuoffire

> Well... crud.
> 
> Why were my estimations for the positions so off? Seriously, even if my predictions were not completely accurate. How did I go from calculating the distance the rearmost individual would move while running flat out, and specifically positioning Ghost in order to act as cover/bait for the archers. To having Ghost be near the _front_ of the group, and completely and utterly make all the lines I drew and predictions I made utterly meaningless?
> 
> How on earth is the rear-most individual 30ft away from where they were supposed to be? How is the front-most individual _45_ft away from where I predicted them to be? Where has this drastic loss in speed come from?


Armor? Many of these are in heavy armor. There where supposed to be the Melee front line. Also, the Ogres are in heavy armor. (Reduced speed, x3 not x4 full run.) 

I am nice sometimes and remind people if I think they miss something, but I mentiooned several times that the Hellblades have full plate. (Plus heavy robes on top and masks of that to conceal a lot)




> Huh.  Block initiative now?  Alright, can do.  
> 
> 
> ...actually, I hate to be a bother, but would you mind updating the ogres' and heroes' positions?  Or would it be easier for you if I just said "Tide moves in the best way possible" and you place me?
> I'm debating trying to go back and teleport out more PCs (I know Blanc is out, though, and I don't think I can see Puck), throwing wagons in the way of the ogres, or just running and trying to carry the rear wave of the "heroes" up to the front.
> 
> Also, this is the right map, right?


I believe that map is up to date. you can move or teleport as you like.

----------


## Novabomb

My next post is operating under the assumption that the encounter has concluded.
If they have outriders, or something that might catch up with the rout I will modify it.

----------


## Yas392

My post is the same as above.

----------


## MagneticDragon

Am I reading the post right? Is the encounter officially over?

If so... I'm sad that I didn't get the arrows launched at me. But I guess I will have to show why I was so eager to be made into a pincushion later. 




> Armor? Many of these are in heavy armor. There where supposed to be the Melee front line. Also, the Ogres are in heavy armor. (Reduced speed, x3 not x4 full run.) 
> 
> I am nice sometimes and remind people if I think they miss something, but I mentioned several times that the Hellblades have full plate. (Plus heavy robes on top and masks of that to conceal a lot)


I don't care about the Hellblades. I was focused entirely on the movements of the allied NPCs, and I do not recall you ever saying that most of them are in heavy armour. Sure, they were meant to function as a melee front line. But that doesn't mean they are necessarily in heavy armour. Especially when it was established that they were not that strong, and were most likely all individually financed, and heavy armour is _expensive_.

----------


## Yas392

> Am I reading the post right? Is the encounter officially over?
> 
> If so... I'm sad that I didn't get the arrows launched at me. But I guess I will have to show why I was so eager to be made into a pincushion later. 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't care about the Hellblades. I was focused entirely on the movements of the allied NPCs, and I do not recall you ever saying that most of them are in heavy armour. Sure, they were meant to function as a melee front line. But that doesn't mean they are necessarily in heavy armour. Especially when it was established that they were not that strong, and were most likely all individually financed, and heavy armour is _expensive_.


I believe it was implied through Team Fey's intel that Blanc repeated and Dieuoffice's reply to Puck's post.

----------


## MagneticDragon

Right, so it was only implied then, not legitimately stated. And even then, it was directed at Team Fey, not Team non-Fey, which Ferrous was part of, and I did not pay much attention to...

Anyhow, it's not that important. What is important, however, is this: Dieuoffire. Can we ignore the fact that Tracking people takes a feat to be be able to do? Or at least, be able to give Track as a bonus feat to my Animal Companion? As it makes _no sense_ that a _predator_, is unable to track down people. Especially as Handle Animal has Track as one of the tricks you can teach an animal companion, but according to the Scent ability, teaching the Track trick to an animal is utterly meaningless as you can't track via scent unless they have the Track feat. 

Also, why does the Magebred Ghost Tiger get a +7 bonus to _balance_, but has no skills in survival, which is used for tracking and hunting prey? It really makes no sense...

----------


## D&DPrinceTandem

> @D&DPrinceTandem:
> 
> I usually wait for players to post but since it seems that the group has decided universally to flee I am going to assume Yohaan will be joining them. Therefore I am going to have Yohaan take a simple withdraw action (double move, flight, and starting square is not threatened. -to avoid any kind of AoO. There is one Ogre that would get an AoO should you just run. The other Ogres are going to hit NPCs so Yohaan will not get hit by them.
> 
> If you want to do anything else with your turn I am happy to let you do so and we can retcon some things but I don't want the game to stall and my paranoia is telling me that it will. 
> 
> The NPC low level adventurers are also going.
> 
> Tide and Blanc can go right after. (Blanc has already announced intentions to flee.)


1: I believe the actions and implied intent you made abt Yohaan is mischaracterizing, 1) Yohaan has never even implied self preservation over the preservation of other life 2)Yohaan is extremely naive and ignorant in term of Combat as a whole. Nevertheless the action you had her take is the only way that this combat is ever going to end any time soon so I dont believe much retconning is needed (see modified summary of actions here). At the end of the day, thank you for taking charge in my absence (no sarcasm) Im grateful that something was done instead of letting me waste everyones time. Thank you.
*Spoiler: OOC actions*
Show

 
Swift action: activate full effect heal to gain pool of (20d6+20)[*81*]
FRA: Withdraw
withdraw elaborated: move in such a way as to distribute healings in order of Self>Tide>Most visibly damaged but conscious personnel. She will again end her movement at the the rear (closes to the orges) of the retreating forces
healings: Self (tbd), Tide (tbd), Others (tbd)


2: Apologies for my absence, I had thought I had posted IC but I hadnt and life went haywire recently (though for the perceivable future nothing like that should happen again, Im here to stay). I do apologize for the hiccups this may have caused  :Small Frown: 

edit: is the damage bypassing Tides Regeneration?

thus far
37hp of heals to Yohaan
33hp of heals to Tide
11hp left to distribute if anyone bears obvious injures 
if no other obvious wounds (on conscious personnel) then Yohan will take another 9 hp of heals (capping her off) and throw the last 2 to Tide.

in the future I will be insuring that all combats Yohaan will start at max SfEL since thats whats being assumed. Any combat that lasts more than 3 rounds Yohaan will retreat and return to murder more Ugly Ogres

----------


## Dieuoffire

> Right, so it was only implied then, not legitimately stated. And even then, it was directed at Team Fey, not Team non-Fey, which Ferrous was part of, and I did not pay much attention to...
> 
> Anyhow, it's not that important. What is important, however, is this: Dieuoffire. Can we ignore the fact that Tracking people takes a feat to be be able to do? Or at least, be able to give Track as a bonus feat to my Animal Companion? As it makes _no sense_ that a _predator_, is unable to track down people. Especially as Handle Animal has Track as one of the tricks you can teach an animal companion, but according to the Scent ability, teaching the Track trick to an animal is utterly meaningless as you can't track via scent unless they have the Track feat. 
> 
> Also, why does the Magebred Ghost Tiger get a +7 bonus to _balance_, but has no skills in survival, which is used for tracking and hunting prey? It really makes no sense...


Indeed it was only implied because some of them have medium armor. however heavy armor starts at splint mail (200 gp) and as I said they were about 3rd level (2500 gp per NPC) I can safely assume that they can afford at least splint, many have afforded half plate (600 gp). Yes it is expensive, yes they can afford it easily. Also movement reduction starts at medium (scale is 50 gp). Meaning most fighters start at level 1 with reduced move (scale armor starting package). I actually have some moving faster than others but I guess that is hard to see when they all move at the same time and you don't see that they are changing order. 

Hmm. well I like to think of Animal companions as tailored to your character as they are a kindred spirit. So if you want to redo their skill points please do so, per class skills for their animal type. (Cross class sometimes refers to how animals don't learn the same way as humans. So foraging might not be a tigers main thing.) Please remember some predators track herds. (and incredibly easy way to track even without the feat.) 

As for not needing the feat. I have many times played that house rule. However, it was not in them this time. So I will default to the logic that (IMHO) the book makes: Animals do not have track feat normally because their scent ability is all they need to track someone who is not actively covering tracks or employing countermeasures. (Natural ability [scent] is enough for their purposes) I WILL however ask the players if anyone minds, if not then we can add that rule in. Please be aware. This will absolutely affect your enemies. they will have TONS of trackers if we do this. Fair is fair both sides get the benefit or neither side.




> 1: I believe the actions and implied intent you made abt Yohaan is mischaracterizing, 1) Yohaan has never even implied self preservation over the preservation of other life 2)Yohaan is extremely naive and ignorant in term of Combat as a whole. Nevertheless the action you had her take is the only way that this combat is ever going to end any time soon so I dont believe much retconning is needed (see modified summary of actions here). At the end of the day, thank you for taking charge in my absence (no sarcasm) Im grateful that something was done instead of letting me waste everyones time. Thank you.
> *Spoiler: OOC actions*
> Show
> 
>  
> Swift action: activate full effect heal to gain pool of [roll0]
> FRA: Withdraw
> withdraw elaborated: move in such a way as to distribute healings in order of Self>Tide>Most visibly damaged but conscious personnel. She will again end her movement at the the rear (closes to the orges) of the retreating forces
> healings: Self (tbd), Tide (tbd), Others (tbd)
> ...


Mischaracterizing? I tried to put in that Yohaan is not running to save her life but to save more lives later by not losing hers now. I may have failed to represent that properly. I am fine with the changes.

@everyone
The Ogres do let lose 1-2 more volleys, I am skipping that because, it will not affect any of you! once you are at significant range and have even limited healing going on their odds of taking one of you out is almost 0. 

You might lose two more NPCs who unluckily get hit by multiple arrows (dead no matter what healing you have) or get a crit (again, dead on the spot) but for all intents and purposes, if everyone flees the Ogres think they got the last laugh and have a wealth of treasure to harvest from over 2 dozen dead adventurers.

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## D&DPrinceTandem

> Indeed it was only implied because some of them have medium armor. however heavy armor starts at splint mail (200 gp) and as I said they were about 3rd level (2500 gp per NPC) I can safely assume that they can afford at least splint, many have afforded half plate (600 gp). Yes it is expensive, yes they can afford it easily. Also movement reduction starts at medium (scale is 50 gp). Meaning most fighters start at level 1 with reduced move (scale armor starting package). I actually have some moving faster than others but I guess that is hard to see when they all move at the same time and you don't see that they are changing order. 
> 
> Hmm. well I like to think of Animal companions as tailored to your character as they are a kindred spirit. So if you want to redo their skill points please do so, per class skills for their animal type. (Cross class sometimes refers to how animals don't learn the same way as humans. So foraging might not be a tigers main thing.) Please remember some predators track herds. (and incredibly easy way to track even without the feat.) 
> 
> As for not needing the feat. I have many times played that house rule. However, it was not in them this time. So I will default to the logic that (IMHO) the book makes: Animals do not have track feat normally because their scent ability is all they need to track someone who is not actively covering tracks or employing countermeasures. (Natural ability [scent] is enough for their purposes) I WILL however ask the players if anyone minds, if not then we can add that rule in. Please be aware. This will absolutely affect your enemies. they will have TONS of trackers if we do this. Fair is fair both sides get the benefit or neither side.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


@MagneticDragon; given that its an animal companion as a Druid of your level (9) and it has and intelligence of 3, it should have a minimum of 4 Tricks and could reasonably have 3 more as well. The 3 are from its intelligence, the 4 are bonus by merit of being your Animal companion. Second note: Many cat species are native to mountainous terrain, that seems to be the source of the base creature you have chosen. In mountainous terrain many predators must be capable of hunting and traveling on uneven terrain (and slop greater than 45 degrees is considered highly restitictive) and generally predators who hunt solitarily (as most big cats native to mountainous terrain do) and through hiding and trapping, the ability to pounce from a higher location is very favorable. As such 7 balance is very reasonable (5 means they arent flat footed when balancing)

@Dieuoffire; the Mischaracterization mainly is for her to use all her movement to get away. Shes not going to go further than the rear of the retreating party (better she take an arrow than the others as I have said many times before.) retreating is fine, fleeing for her own neck without regards to slower land based allies is not lol. Nothing against you tho, for the most part we are the same wavelength (though it is a bit of a stretch to say she is thinks the same as the rest of the party, shes not thinking of retreat, she is thinking of saving lives)
if at all possible (assuming we are skipping turns based upon what the archers will be doing as you said above) If at all possible Yohaan will be taking actions to intercept as many projectiles as possible (move action on my turn to advance and Standard action to move to intercept arrows aimed at the weaker/Slower NPC warriors) I dunno how better to simulate this intention mechanically than that way. Yohaan can then heal herself whatever damage is dealt instead of it hitting a friendly.

edit: side note Im really like the what we finally decided on with SfEL. [Con Score] per round is very reasonable as it fairly limits the range of things I can do during combat while not being too restrictive on my capabilities as a whole. Not to mention what Prep time looks like as a healer now (we might actually survive the first few rounds without living on the brink/ losing a party memeber per turn now)

worry not my companions, the healer is competent now.

----------


## Yas392

Not sure where Yohaan is. Is she near the first group?

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## MagneticDragon

> is enough for their purposes)


Are... are you sure? I'm reading the Scent ability, and it _specifically_ says that they can only follow smells if they have the Track Feat? 




> A creature with the Track feat and the scent ability can follow tracks by smell, making a Wisdom check to find or follow a track





> Second note: Many cat species are native to mountainous terrain, that seems to be the source of the base creature you have chosen. In mountainous terrain many predators must be capable of hunting and traveling on uneven terrain (and slop greater than 45 degrees is considered highly restitictive) and generally predators who hunt solitarily (as most big cats native to mountainous terrain do) and through hiding and trapping, the ability to pounce from a higher location is very favorable. As such 7 balance is very reasonable (5 means they arent flat footed when balancing)


Huh. Fair point, I had not considered that before. Thank you for finding a strong reason why the Balance check might be necessary.

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## Dieuoffire

Tracking does not require track feat _unless_ you are tracking a difficulty over 10. So anyone can track a herd of animals who are not covering their tracks. Most animals do not cover tracks, so track feat is actually not something many of them have. 

Again, I am willing to go with the group on this but if we do, every creature that has scent can now track.

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## D&DPrinceTandem

> Tracking does not require track feat _unless_ you are tracking a difficulty over 10. So anyone can track a herd of animals who are not covering their tracks. Most animals do not cover tracks, so track feat is actually not something many of them have. 
> 
> Again, I am willing to go with the group on this but if we do, every creature that has scent can now track.


yes most animals dont cover tracks so its not an evolutionary trait that they would pick up to gain the feat, but most animals can still track a great distance based off of scent (I believe it is a Black bear that surprised me the most with their scent tracking capabilities).
here is my proposition to the discussion: the Base DC (both for rolling against and calculating if a roll is allowed) for tracking for trackers with Scent is 0, and they ignore lighting, but they take double the penalty from precipitation if using only scent to track. Id say creatures native to tundra areas that have scent only add +15 to the DC for fresh snow but thats a more specific circumstance)
For Example. tracking 15 Ogres over firm ground after 8 hrs of raining in the moonlit night is DC 20 (15-1(size)-5(number)+8(precipitation)+3(lighting)). For a creature with Scent the DC would only be 10 (0-1(size)-5(number)+16(precipitation)). A creature with Scent and not the Track feat would still be subject to the max DC of 10 rule.

----------


## Cassus

Given that the Track feat seems to represent special training (since you can instinctively follow tracks with a DC of 10 or less), I'd expect it to result from special training.  It seems normal to let an animal companion, etc, take it as a normal feat from hit dice, but I don't think the feat needs to be free.

----------


## MagneticDragon

I will admit, I did not know that DC 10 tracks could be tracked without the necessary feat. 

In that case, I believe I will drop my previous complaints. While PrinceTandem's suggestion is, somewhat nice, it is still a buff to any individual with scent that does not have track, and it is not too difficult for a scent DC to be 10 reespeciallyespecially when tracking a group.

----------


## Dieuoffire

The idea of tracking by scent having different difficulties/modifiers is actually a good one. However, is it good enough to make _another_ house rule for it? I don't think so. 

I will however make note that scent is affected by different things as the DMG and Core allow additional modifiers as the DM sees fit. So instead of adding a house rule I will default to modifiers that make sense.

----------


## Yas392

> Not sure where Yohaan is. Is she near the first group?


Still waiting for this answer.

----------


## D&DPrinceTandem

> Still waiting for this answer.


She would currently be near where Tide is located on the map currently (the one titles SoF2 Combat 1).

----------


## Yas392

> She would currently be near where Tide is located on the map currently (the one titles SoF2 Combat 1).


I don't mean battle map. I mean after battle when our characters are far away from the Ogres.

----------


## D&DPrinceTandem

> I don't mean battle map. I mean after battle when our characters are far away from the Ogres.


Following the end of the battle Yohaan will tend to the wounded and heal any sicknesses that she can as she goes along her way. This would include the members of Group 1, especially Tide (insert thats a lotta damage here). Whenever these tasks are finished she will be looking for Blanc and/or Puck if either is not found along the way.

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## Yas392

OK. Blanc will meet up with Yohaan as she finds her.

*@Dieuoffice* Blanc is ahead of the group in retreating. She has no incentive to backtrack to protect the NPCs.

----------


## Novabomb

Correct, Toboruk's purpose is organized retreat, and to encourage the concept of him being the superior officer. (Not that he expects most of them to join a new company, but their opinion might be useful later)

----------


## MagneticDragon

Yohaan is among the NPCs, healing the wounded. Meaning blanc is with her as well.

Toboruk is apparently taking charge of the group of NPCs. Simply because no one else has posted yet. And, that's about it, isn't it? Callen is dead, Tide is, still invisible as far as I know? And Puck's invisibility has likely ran out by now as well, and maybe they are with Yohaan and blanc? 

I could make a post, but I don't want to assume where everyone is and who is legitimately visible or not.

----------


## Yas392

That is incorrect. Blanc will meet up with Yohaan once Yohaan ventured off from Group 1 to find Blanc after she does the healing. It seems I did not specify who the "She" is which referred to Yohaan.

----------


## MagneticDragon

> That is incorrect. Blanc will meet up with Yohaan once Yohaan ventured off from Group 1 to find Blanc after she does the healing. It seems I did not specify who the "She" is which referred to Yohaan.


Wait, hold on. You said Blanc would search for Yohaan after they had retreated. But Prince said that Yohaan will spend time with the NPCs in order to heal them. And though they can heal a decent amount of damage as a free action, they can only heal so much HP per round as a maximum, and will most likely be draining themselves dry quickly, forcing them to rely only on the rather small amount of spellfire levels they get per round. Further extending the amount of time it would require for Yohaan to stay with the NPCs in order to heal them.

Are you saying that Blanc is so selfish and unconcerned with others, that she would not fly back to find Yohaan at all, but force Yohaan to come to her? Because Blanc not caring about the NPCs to fly back and defend them is one thing. But Blanc not moving back to catch up with Yohaan, who spent some time healing the NPCs, and instead simply waiting for Yohaan to catch up with her, is another.

... Plus, you know. This is a chance for the two groups to _be together?_ Instead of forcing us to split up _again?_

----------


## Yas392

> Wait, hold on. You said Blanc would search for Yohaan after they had retreated. But Prince said that Yohaan will spend time with the NPCs in order to heal them. And though they can heal a decent amount of damage as a free action, they can only heal so much HP per round as a maximum, and will most likely be draining themselves dry quickly, forcing them to rely only on the rather small amount of spellfire levels they get per round. Further extending the amount of time it would require for Yohaan to stay with the NPCs in order to heal them.
> 
> Are you saying that Blanc is so selfish and unconcerned with others, that she would not fly back to find Yohaan at all, but force Yohaan to come to her? Because Blanc not caring about the NPCs to fly back and defend them is one thing. But Blanc not moving back to catch up with Yohaan, who spent some time healing the NPCs, and instead simply waiting for Yohaan to catch up with her, is another.
> 
> ... Plus, you know. This is a chance for the two groups to _be together?_ Instead of forcing us to split up _again?_


Except the getting together part is coming but a work in progress hence why she started the discussion with Team Fey. Blanc is open to cooperation with Group 1 but does not know how to express it to them or make the first move because of the previous vitriol from both sides. 

It seems I did post that Blanc is searching for Yohaan but left the location of the meeting vague and it happened before Prince's post about healing NPCs. Amended my post for clarity. She will be backtracking for Yohaan and Puck slowly (because she is wary about the Ogres aiming at her and on the lookout for Ogre attacks) and meeting them behind the crowd and Group 1.

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## MagneticDragon

Okay, so we have the NPCs currently getting into formation. Team Fey, likely somewhat in the air as I think they can all fly, on one side, and then we have Group 1 on the other side? I can work with that.

I just hope Tide is visible.

----------


## Dieuoffire

The NPCs are all out running for several rounds at least. Then moving away still for a few minutes before they paused to talk. l am going to say most of the NPCs want a mile between them and the Hellblades before they stop to have the posted conversation. So Blanc waiting a few hundred or even 1000 feet away will not make any real difference. If they are covering 100 ft per round waiting a minute away is nothing. 

Again mostly I am making sure nobody says later on that they wanted to do something but were rushed and got skipped.

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## Yas392

I think Blanc will make Yohaan the spokesperson in regards to gluing Team Fey with the other group once Yohaan tells her and Puck of her interactions with Group 1.

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## MagneticDragon

Okay, good that is confirmed.

Now I just need to know what Tide is doing.

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## Cassus

> Okay, good that is confirmed.
> 
> Now I just need to know what Tide is doing.


What questions do you have that are not answered by my most recent post?

----------


## Dieuoffire

Ok so Puck is the last one that I don't exactly know if he wants to do something. I am going to assume not as I ahve given time.

Also I am going to introducing new characters as you guys get back into town. @Bookwombat @Xav @Riptor; you guys are going to be on the scene soon.

Puck if you want to do something let us know soon, I might go back a little but once things start happening it will be too late.

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## Yas392

Just waiting for Prince to respond to Blanc so we can move forward.

----------


## Book Wombat

> Ok so Puck is the last one that I don't exactly know if he wants to do something. I am going to assume not as I ahve given time.
> 
> Also I am going to introducing new characters as you guys get back into town. @Bookwombat @Xav @Riptor; you guys are going to be on the scene soon.
> 
> Puck if you want to do something let us know soon, I might go back a little but once things start happening it will be too late.


Cool, excited to start!

----------


## Yas392

Blanc has sown the seeds.

----------


## MagneticDragon

Okay, I am afraid I am going to need to ask for advice here. As I do not currently know how to proceed with the RP.

My initial plan, after we retreated and the NPCs showed their frustration and anger at how events had unfurled. Was for Ferrous to reflect this anger and frustration as well. To say that they did not do enough themselves, that the lives of those lost fell on them for not being able to prevent the ambush in the first place. Then he would turn to the others and point out the mistakes they made. Splitting forces instead of combining them. Going off on their own scouting trips, without waiting for a plan to be put into place. As well as wasting all the time they had simply talking and discussing ideas instead of _acting_ on any of them and making all of their talk meaningless as they ended up doing nothing.

And then, at the end of it, Ferrous would have declared that they need leadership, and basically nominate himself as leadership.

Before I posted this, however, I wanted to make sure it would be appropriate for Ferrous to say everything he did. To call out Team Fey for not joining forces, to call out Tide, for deciding to scout on ahead without agreement from the rest, and so on. And when I finally had all of the information I needed, I was given a minimal amount of time to actually make use of this information, before the DM decided to force use back to town and eliminate my plan entirely.

Which brings me to the question I have... how do I go forwards, when I do not believe Ferrous, as a character, would stay silent for so long? How do I resolve the difference between what I had planned to do with my character, and what the DM has decided that my character has now done? With several posts now being made after we have been skipped to town, it's not like I can ask for all those posts to be cleared up and we resolve the discussion that Ferrous would have undoubtedly started with his comments. But for the life of me, I cannot figure out how to justify Ferrous having said absolutely nothing, when he was going to nominate himself for leadership.

----------


## Novabomb

I am a bit confused on why you did not have Ferrous speak up during the march back, but we are not so far gone that a bit of retroactive discussion could not occur. (It has only been 4 posts)

That said if you do not want to go that route, you could justify it as wanting to be in a safe, a private place before your character presents their arguments. (I suggest that your character arrange for a meeting somewhere if you want to go that way)

As to the question of appropriateness, the character is certainly entitled to their views, I doubt any of us would take it personally.
That said, if as a player it is your expectation that this line of reasoning will encourage the others to accept Ferrous as leader, that seems unlikely to me.

----------


## Cassus

RE time: The dates between "battle's over, ogres stop running" and "you arrive in town" are almost a full week apart-- it's not exactly cricket to say the DM was rushing anyone, given the amount of time provided.

As far as where to RP from now on, though...  Are you sure that Ferrous would really think the middle of a retreat from enemy territory was the best place to start trying to lecture a bunch of near-total strangers?
I'm sure if he's the leader he believes he is, he understands the importance of morale, and spending the trek home on recriminations would probably be crushing for the remnant of the "army of heroes."
More than that, effectively taking responsibility for all of the deaths, assuming he was taken seriously, would greatly hamper his ability to work with the townsfolk in the future.  A crowd like this would probably be VERY happy to have someone to blame for what just happened, after all.  And if Ferrous managed to turn the town against the rest of the PCs, after all of their work building those relationships, the PCs probably wouldn't look kindly on him either.

So given his overall logical bent (or at least strong critical thinking skills-- everyone seems to interpret Intelligence differently) and immense experience with diplomacy/human relations, it seems quite a reasonable choice for Ferrous to NOT launch that divisive and deconstructive speech on the way back to town.

Instead...  How's this?  You said Ferrous'd be upset Tide didn't seek consensus before scouting ahead, right?  If group consensus and careful planning is important to Ferrous, I can easily imagine him trying to model those behaviors-- wait until we're all out of the danger zone, gather in a more peaceful area (a few PCs have already said they want to do just that), and present coherent plans for the future (seeking the group's approval/consensus).

----------


## MagneticDragon

Hmmm, that is a rather well-reasoned argument Casus.

I will admit, I had not fully considered whether or not it would be an appropriate place to have the discussion. Morale, as well as the possibility of the NPCs taking this admission of blame in an extremely negative way, were both aspects that I had not thought about beforehand. Yet, Ferrous, being a skilled diplomat, as well as an intelligent individual, _would_ most likely take them into consideration. I admit I had been planning on making him a rather rash and passionate individual - as Ferrous does not have the greatest wisdom - but with the ten-minute break between the end of the fight gave Ferrous time to cool his head. As well as your argument. Yes, I can safely say that Ferrous will have changed his mind. 

Thank you for the advice, I believe I know exactly how to proceed with the RP now.

----------


## Ripptor

Hello everyone! I am here, just got off the plane today and will start catching up  :Small Smile:

----------


## Dieuoffire

First off 

WELCOME TO THE NEW PLAYERS!

Secondly, I agree with Caussus, I would further point out that finger pointing had done a lot to start those divisions. Sometimes it is time for constructive criticism but I usually find those times are after a strong unit has been formed where it can then be seen as constructive, not when trying to become a group. 

Think of it this way; you must first make something before looking for flaws in the making. If you have not built a 'team,' you cannot give constructive advise to the 'team.' IF advise is not actionable and constructive then it is just finger pointing. 

As always, I have been wrong before so Just cause I am DM does not mean I am infallible.

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## Yas392

I wanted to add something but the previous posts summed up most of the content I wanted to add.

If Ferrous wants to win the hearts of Team Fey + new party members, the town is where the flow of the dialogue is natural and an opportunity as the current and new party members will be re-introducing/introducing themselves.

He will have to prove he is a figure to look up to and worthy of assuming the mantle of leadership.

----------


## D&DPrinceTandem

Err, the speech was supposed to be before making it to the gathering. As the city walls return to view is meant to be as seen on the horizon or as seen through the tree line not as we approach the City walls. The events at the wall should have came after. Sry for the confusion.

----------


## Dieuoffire

I have never claimed to be perfect.

Just claimed that if we are all nice to each other we can have fun.

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## Ripptor

Well, lets have some of that fun that we're all here for!  :Small Big Grin: 

Is there a Discord server for more realtime OOC chat/coordination on this one, or is this all PBP-speed?

And AFAIK no one from the new group has popped in yet, can I assume as the crowd disperses that the new band of brethren stay back and introduce themselves? I can kick that off if so!

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## Yas392

Feel free. Blanc is waiting for Yohaan or someone to break the ice so our characters can get to the introductions/reconciliation.

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## D&DPrinceTandem

It would seem nobody wanted to interact with the welcoming party at the gate. My bad Dieuoffire  :Small Frown: . I only commented about timing because I didnt want my speech to impede on others interacting with the scenario you presented.

Ill type something up sometime today (sooner rather than later hopefully)

also, welcome Ripptor, dont let my going to post stop you from introducing yourself. I can adapt to whatever is said and will include you/whomever you introduce if you should do so prior to my posting

----------


## Ripptor

Alright, for Reference, this is Terra's Submission Blurb. Feel free to toss a link in the opening post of the OoC, or whatever helps for reference!

Gonna assume that Book Wombat and Xav are both traveling with me, though I don;t think we established a particular backstory... I assume ragtag band of fortune hunters?

----------


## D&DPrinceTandem

Sry abt the delay, was a bit more busy then I thought yesterday, working on post now.

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## Novabomb

Gather Information: (1d20)[*18*]

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## Dieuoffire

So I made a mistake. It was/is notable.

The feat Pierce magical concealment negates miss chance, it specifically works against invisibility etc. So I did some research about what the feat entails. After a lot of forum browsing I came to a faulty conclusion that the feat allows you to detect invisible at all times. The feat also has no range limitation. 

It has been pointed out to me that this makes the feat overpoweringly strong. The feat does have a steep cost in -4CL and a prerequisite feat; but this interpretation is VERY strong. The mage slayer feats were designed to specifically counter magic in a world where magic is king (basically) and I did not think it too broken, but now I see that it can be. 

*Spoiler: Here is how I am going to be using Pierce Magical Concealment in the future*
Show



The feat will auto pierce concealment when the character focuses on an area. 
In game/story terms the enemies have to focus their eyes (like focusing on where they will be attacking) at a location to pierce the concealment. This makes it so if the characters are not expecting an invisible foes or do not have any idea where the foe might be, then the feat will not work so well. But if anyone points out the foe, those possessing the feat can easily detect the foe and avoid the miss chance. 

I believe this story explanation fulfils the feat's abilities without granting a lot of extra bonuses. 

I believe this interpretation is fair. Is everyone OK with that?


BUT this does not fix the problem in the past; which I still see this as unfair. 

The players where not informed.
The rule/interpretation was not in the house rules. 
It was clearly 'head cannon' with little to support it.
I hate unspoken head cannon and I recognize it as unfair. Sorry! So I need to remedy this; and to make things fair I need to offer up a bonus to the PCs similar to the bonus that the enemies got.

So here is my suggestion and what I think is fair.
1 
I had a secondary way the hellblades could have achieved their actions. You guys could have put this together much easier had the hellblades done this second way, so I will explain it now.

The hellblades had a bard there who does not have the slayer feats but who was using see invisibility (cast prior for ambush prep). The bard also had up message spell (used prior to the fight to communicate ambush information). The bard would have stopped using inspire courage (the fight was less than 5 rounds as is, so no difference) and just directed others to point out the invisible opponents. At which time the feat would have done the rest and there would be no difference to the fight. (if you noticed the bard took no other actions for the fight.) 

2 
to make the above work the bard would have had to roll high on a caster level check to beat the non-detection spell. Since I did not roll it. I owe the group (Tide in particular) a roll. Next encounter Tide can simply declare they rolled a 20 one time. (The bard could have succeeded with much less but I'm giving more than minimum to be more than fair.)

3
The effect of these changes would make almost no combat difference from what was done. The story could continue with only the minor hiccup that you noticed the two spells in use. (You could see the bard whispering, see the magical auras on the bard, and the leader's pointing out the invisible enemy would have more use than just directing focused archery)

Again, does this seem fair? (I ask because gaming should not be a dictatorship; players and DM should decide fair together)

Lastly I have noticed I have more head cannon than I previously thought. if ever you suspect it, please feel free to PM me. I am always happy to discover something that could make the game more fair/fun for everyone.

----------


## D&DPrinceTandem

> So I made a mistake. It was/is notable.
> 
> The feat Pierce magical concealment negates miss chance, it specifically works against invisibility etc. So I did some research about what the feat entails. After a lot of forum browsing I came to a faulty conclusion that the feat allows you to detect invisible at all times. The feat also has no range limitation. 
> 
> It has been pointed out to me that this makes the feat overpoweringly strong. The feat does have a steep cost in -4CL and a prerequisite feat; but this interpretation is VERY strong. The mage slayer feats were designed to specifically counter magic in a world where magic is king (basically) and I did not think it too broken, but now I see that it can be. 
> 
> *Spoiler: Here is how I am going to be using Pierce Magical Concealment in the future*
> Show
> 
> ...


 its notable that PMC ignores miss chance, it does not ignore Concealment nor Invisibility. 
An Invisible creature still has concealment and can still hide while using said concealment (with a +20/+40 at that). 
PMC (regardless of what the words in the name of the feat say) only ignores this miss chance provided by concealment from magical sources. Even with the ability as you interpret it, they wouldnt be able to auto find someone.

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## Dieuoffire

Indeed.

The interpretation I _was_ using, of seeing through invis constantly would have, but not with the way I will be doing it going forward.

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## Cassus

Hmmm...  Honestly, I had thought you were misunderstanding the scent rules.  That's...  That's pretty dramatic.  I need to rant for a bit.
*Spoiler: Alternate History Go!*
Show

In particular, if the bard dropped inspire courage, that flurry of attack rolls that downed Tide are all six lower (including the -2 for range increment), and dealing less damage... and mostly misses, even assuming the bard can accurately communicate the space to aim at (which is probably pretty doable; big Tide is big).

That, in turn, means that Tide is still fighting fit after the volley (probably 70% health or more).  His damage output drops precipitously as he's forced to shapeshift out of the "all-out offense" form, but if the whispering and signaling is as obvious as you say, he charges the bard and takes them out of commission.  Without the bard, the See Invisibility is down, and Tide starts suppressing the ranged ogres.  Other flying and/or invisible party members go for the melee ogres.
That, in turn, leaves Blanc in particular (and the others) free to start laying into the melee ogres.  The wolves are probably much less of an issue if they're taking that huge cone of ice in the teeth, after all.

The leader is still utterly terrifying, but one ogre is much less of a threat than a score.  We probably don't manage to kill him, but we outmaneuver him.  There's a LOT of flight in this party.  I'm not sure how sturdy the ogres are-- maybe the melee ogres switch to bows in time to drive us off before we make multiple kills, maybe they don't.  But the bard takes multiple full attacks from Tide (and the next turn, he can shift back to "Juggernaut mode," so that full attack STINGS, assuming one full attack didn't do the job).  I'm laying money the bard dies unless there's a Contingency in play (don't tell me if there is, of course).

As the dust settles, instead of needing to full-retreat at a sprint, we're drawing off in good enough order to have some of the stealthier party members track them back towards their base.  They've taken at least one casualty, plus possibly wolves (never saw those, so I'm not sure if they'd be meat in the grinder for the AoEs or not).  We know at least some of their trumps for emergencies, too.  Granted, there are likely more dead villagers, too.

Okay, that felt good.

So yeah.  That's...  That's really dramatic.  It's heartening that you acknowledge it; I understand the need to keep things moving, but we players don't have recourse if you're consistently ruling in the enemies' favor.  Given how much time has passed IC, I don't see a better way to move forward from here, so that narrative about See Invisibility is fine by me.  I'll go work on an IC post.

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## D&DPrinceTandem

> Indeed.
> 
> The interpretation I _was_ using, of seeing through invis constantly would have, but not with the way I will be doing it going forward.


The more I read this feat and the more I re-read the rules the more infuriating this feat is. Either its broken and negs all things that could fall under (magically gained concealment) or its useless.
lets take an invisible creature because it is the most useful.
_invisibility_ grants a creature *total concealment*
*total concealment* grants a creature 50% Miss chance
_being invisible_ blocks line of sight
When line of sight is blocked by something that doesnt otherwise physically block or prevent an attack that doesnt require line of sight (such as fog), you can still make that attack, but your target is treated as if it were invisible 
Pierce Magical Concealment ignores miss chance from magical effects
Pierce Magical Concealment does not grant line of sight.
because the feat does not grant line of sight, the creature is treated as is it where invisible [the status, not the magical effect] which would then non-magically impose a 50% miss chance.
so either this feat is a permanent Psuedo-true seeing (Balance Broken) or it is completely useless [Literally Broken]

disclaimer: Im baffled, not angry or anything like that.

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## Yas392

> its notable that PMC ignores miss chance, it does not ignore Concealment nor Invisibility. 
> An Invisible creature still has concealment and can still hide while using said concealment (with a +20/+40 at that). 
> PMC (regardless of what the words in the name of the feat say) only ignores this miss chance provided by concealment from magical sources. Even with the ability as you interpret it, they wouldnt be able to auto find someone.


PMC ignores miss chance concealment from spells or spell-like abilities not from supernatural abilities. So a supernaturally created fog or invisibility still trumps PMC.

I don't see anything the description that gives the ability to auto-detect invisibility or ignore cover provided by concealment, just miss chance.

*@Dieuoffire* I vote moving forward. It has been some time since the tutorial battle and I do not want to go back to it. I do not mind occasional hiccups or accidental railroading as I've seen DMs make those time to time. If the DM is aware of those, I am not going to be annoyed unless they are deliberate, persistent and repetitive. I do prefer transparency and discussions if there are discrepancies in the abilities discovered through knowledge, evidences, divinations or any other means IC. Given the slow nature of PBP and our characters interacting for some time before they leave again, it will give you the time to polish the Ogres to their final product.

----------


## Book Wombat

> Gonna assume that Book Wombat and Xav are both traveling with me, though I don;t think we established a particular backstory... I assume ragtag band of fortune hunters?


Sounds good! Esme was mostly a traveller, only went to Afon due to lacking gold and wanting to establish herself somewhere. Would make sense that she teamed up while on the road.

----------


## Dieuoffire

@Cassus
The bardic music ability persists 5 rounds after the ability stops being used. So even if the bard stopped round 1 the bonuses would have continued through the combat. So as annoyed as you were, the bonuses would not have been affected. (Not trying to dismiss your anger, just saying the fight would not have changed so dramatically)

@D&DPrincetandem
Now you see why I thought the way I did? This interpretation is not extreme, just wrong. 

@yas392
Yes, having literally never had a PC with a form of supernatural Invisibility (not from spells/SLA in any way.) before I must say I did not even think about that. 

@everyone
The Mage slayer feat tree is, I must admit either broken good or broken bad. I allow (and actually kind of like) the feats because magic is so powerful and those who don't have spells are at a serious disadvantage. Mage slayer series grants extremely powerful abilities for classes that are willing to take a huge hit to spell casting, which when you don't have that ability doesn't matter. Secondly the feats are very limited in scope. If any of you took mage slayer, it would do nothing against these ogres, or against more than 75% of the MM creatures. Specialized feats are more powerful in their own area. So as a feat it is actually not unbalanced (unless you use my initial interpretation)

When I look at balance I usually ask myself would most players universally take that ability/feat above all others? I can guarantee that PMC feat would not be taken above many others even by fighters UNLESS they wanted to focus on caster killing. At which point my response is "Ah, a specialist!" So yes it's fine that you are much stronger in one specific area for the price of three feats(4 actually as Blind fighting feat is also required) and the sacrifice that you will never be able to multiclass etc. to gain any real spellcasting. 

*Spoiler: I am going to say that should any of you wish to take these feats go ahead*
Show


Remember
1. I use psionic/magic transparency so these feats, good and bad, still apply to psionics. 
2. I will not drop your caster level below 1. (so if you dip sorcerer you still have casting 1; it would just be silly to have a sorcerer level and not be able to cast anything.)
3. No the bad guys do not have a 1 level dip in sorcerer or wizard. BUT they still have a few more surprises.


I did recheck all of the other stats. I also put the badd guys into heroforge (excel file that auto-calculates according to the rules) and it turns out that everything checks out. None of their other numbers where wrong. The CR of each is exactly right and their construction as bad guys was by the book exactly, except I reduced their equipment by about 60% (Trying to make sure I do not TPK. These guys are way tougher than CR normally and I could not stomach adding more to them.)

Thanks everyone for their opinions and for your understanding. I will try to not use head cannon.

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## Cassus

Fair point about the bardic music.  On the other hand, I didn't take into account the fact that the invisibility in the party is not spell-based either (it's not really something that comes up a lot, is it?).  That means that all of the attacks had a 50% miss chance even if aimed at the right space.  So statistically similar effects on HP to what I described with the increased miss rate.

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## Dieuoffire

Hmm; point to Cassus. 

My only defense is that I didn't even think about it not being spell related. Without denying that the fault is mine however I'd like to move on. I will better remember the finer points of this battle next time.

If there are no more errors to discuss then I must repeat an old phrase "The show must go on!"

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## Cassus

I think this combat was a 'shakedown cruise' for most of us, me included, which is to be expected with this much homebrew in play.  Let's keep going!

As a reminder, everyone probably heard Tide's invitation, including newcomers (though no free lunch for them, unless they ask) and possibly the people in the next town over.  So if you're looking for an in to post, just post in the inn!

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## Novabomb

> I think this combat was a 'shakedown cruise' for most of us, me included, which is to be expected with this much homebrew in play.  Let's keep going!
> 
> As a reminder, everyone probably heard Tide's invitation, including newcomers (though no free lunch for them, unless they ask) and possibly the people in the next town over.  So if you're looking for an in to post, just post in the inn!


I am assuming the invitation happened after Toboruk departed.

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## Cassus

Eh, could've just as easily been something he overheard on his way out of the square.  Tide has capacious lungs.

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## MagneticDragon

Sorry for the moment of quietness. 

Made a post, and I am fine with moving forwards. Pierce Magical Concealment is challenging to deal with from the sounds of things, so mistakes being made works for me. Best to simply accept the errors and move forward, best we can. 

Meeting in the tavern is cliche, but it works, and it is a good place for us all to gather, so I hope we can gather up together and start planning.

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## Yas392

Group 1 knows Team Fey's names already via Blanc. It is the other way around. They know Tide's name but they did not get Ferrous and Toboruk's name.

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## MagneticDragon

They do? When did Blanc share their names?

I genuinely do not recall when Ferrous learned the names of Team Fey.

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## Yas392

When she walked up to Ferrous to introduce the team to him in this post.

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## MagneticDragon

Huh, my apologies.

I will have Ferrous remember the fact they have been introduced in my next post.

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## Ripptor

Sorry, U.S. Election is my busy season. Catching my breath...

*@Xav
@BookWombat*

I have inserted ourselves at the edge of the crowd, listening in and open to the invitation to the Tavern for meals! She'll follow along with whatever you guys want (she's easygoing like that) so if we take off in that direction, take me with you!  :Small Big Grin:

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## Dieuoffire

I hope the dwarf was just hard enough to understand but not too difficult. I imagine him very drunk, with a thick accent, and a PTSD where suddenly he focuses for half a second as he remembers something horrible all to vividly. Then he slips back into an even worse state.

Hard to convey that but I did my best. Hence the changing in the speech, the wild movement and the emotional shifts.

----------


## Cassus

That did come across.  Yeah, for me, it's a nightmare to write dialect, so kudos for that.  I feel like I understood each individual sentence, but they were disjointed (wait, why are the ogres wearing masks and robes?  What's so special about the custom armor? etc).

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## Yas392

Waiting a bit for @Xav, @MagneticDragon, and @Novabomb to jump in before I post.

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## MagneticDragon

I can understand the dwarf just fine, very nice accent, well done Dieuoffire.

Going to be replying soon, but I will only be responding to Tide and Yohaan. From what I read from Ripptor's post. Terra and Esme are outside, in the town square or similar. While only Ferrous, Tide and Yohaan are currently inside the pub. Maybe with Blanc as well, that much I am unsure of.

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## D&DPrinceTandem

> I can understand the dwarf just fine, very nice accent, well done Dieuoffire.
> 
> Going to be replying soon, but I will only be responding to Tide and Yohaan. From what I read from Ripptor's post. Terra and Esme are outside, in the town square or similar. While only Ferrous, Tide and Yohaan are currently inside the pub. Maybe with Blanc as well, that much I am unsure of.


I was under the presumption that team Fey all entered the tavern together, and Terra, Esme and Aen Ral all came looking for Tides implied gathering. This would have eventually lead them to the tavern, which is where they would be currently talking to Blanc. This is how I understood it but I may be wrong

----------


## Yas392

Blanc followed Yohaan who led her into the tavern.

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## D&DPrinceTandem

I will be posting some time within the next 24hrs, sry for the wait (didn't see Magnetic Dragon's post addressing me until now)

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## Yas392

Waiting for @MagneticDragon to confirm whether Ferrous introduction is to Yohaan or to all those present in the Tavern. I will post for Blanc once everyone is acquainted with each other.

----------


## MagneticDragon

Going to be editing my post tomorrow (movie + dinner took me quite a long time today), but I'm accepting that Blanc is in the tavern at least.

If there's been another post, as I haven't read IC yet, then the newcomers are here as well, but I haven't heard anything from them about them actually entering into the tavern.

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## D&DPrinceTandem

I will format in my Text color in the morning but my post has been made.
(I think we can decide on whether we will take the innkeepers offer and then get down to actual business; my post is mainly to move things forward.)

----------


## Cassus

Moving forward is good!

On a related note, Blanc, did you mean to ask for introductions again?  Didn't we just do that out in the main room?

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## Yas392

I believe Ferrous introduced himself to Yohaan instead of the whole group.

----------


## MagneticDragon

THat is true, it seems to be that Ferrous introduced themselves to Yohaan, then Blanc arrived with the others, so Ferrous will have to introduce himself again, as he was not overheard.

----------


## Yas392

And Nova PMed me that Toboruk is not in the scene so I will exclude him from Blanc's perspective.

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## Cassus

Alright.  So...  Is there anyone who is A) in-scene at the tavern and B) has not shared their name?

Actually, better question.  Is there anyone in-scene at the tavern who objects to just assuming everyone's shared their names and moving on with the scene?

----------


## Dieuoffire

I think everyone there is good with it.

Sorry seem to be slowing and don't want this to die.

----------


## MagneticDragon

There we go, hopefully this will give plenty for people to interact with.

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## D&DPrinceTandem

Posted, feel free to still respond to Ferrous, as well as Yohaan.

----------


## Book Wombat

One small question about how you would rule some of the embedded gems.
I took Moonstone, which has the following description:



> *Moonstone:* The crystal master gains an insight bonus of +1 to her Armor Class and on all saving throws. This increases by +1 per embedded gem. This ability is active as long as the crystal master maintains psionic focus.


Would the Moonstone itself count as an additional gem for this effect, so with two embedded gems in total the bonus would be +3? Wondering because most of the other gems with similar abilities have the phrase "additional embedded gem" rather than just "embedded gem" such as the Peridot.



> *Peridot:* The crystal master gains damage reduction of 1/--. This is increased by 1 for each additional embedded gem.

----------


## Dieuoffire

I think it is meant to be "additional" because every other one is that way.

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## MagneticDragon

Just double-checking, but I can play around with my AC's feats and skill ranks, correct?

----------


## Dieuoffire

> Just double-checking, but I can play around with my AC's feats and skill ranks, correct?


What? Sorry not understanding. Do you mean you want to change around Feats, skill points, etc?

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## D&DPrinceTandem

> What? Sorry not understanding. Do you mean you want to change around Feats, skill points, etc?


I might be wrong but I think what MagneticDragon is asking is (for example) a Wolf animal companion would normally have weapon focus (bite), could a player with said wolf animal companion have there wolf instead have Power attack? Same changes for skill point allocations.

----------


## MagneticDragon

Yeah, pretty much. A Magebred Ghost Tiger normally has the following skill ranks and feats:

Listen 2, Move Silently 3, Spot 2 and Swim 5. Alertness, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Improved Natural Attack (claw), Run.

I was hoping to switch the 5ranks in Swim for Survival, and switch Run for Track, so that Ghost can serve as a tracking animal. 

I believe we discussed this before, and the answer was yes, but I want to be sure.

----------


## Dieuoffire

oh yes you can make your companion as you would like. just remember that some feats are bonus feats for that race and class skills and cross class still stay the same. so changing skill points does not always give the same ranks. 

The PHB says the listed sills under the animals entry are the class skills for that animal. (I believe so anyway.)

----------


## MagneticDragon

Gotcha.

Should be replying either today or tomorrow, sorry for the delay, but work is really picking up in the holidays.

----------


## D&DPrinceTandem

Just noting, Ill post after MagneticDragon is finished (no rush, I understand the holiday buzz)

----------


## Yas392

Cutting excess fat on my post, and adding to Blanc's first sentence to provide more light on the concern she is referring on top of the initial reply to Ferrous to e.g the mistake of failed leadership in the past that divided the group in two.

----------


## MagneticDragon

Tada, one talkative Ferrous, trying to learn as much as possible in order to make plans.

Should we keep the planning entirely in character, or should we plan out of character as well? Might be easier if we plan out of character a bit, but we won't be able to make a real concrete plan without knowing how much time we have to set up a fight and what we might end up facing.

----------


## Novabomb

I think encounter level planning should be done OOC, but strategic level planning might be a worthy in character thing to do.

----------


## Yas392

Did Ferrous listened to/take into account  Blanc's leadership bit? I am uncertain.

----------


## Cassus

Right now, Tide isn't aiming to plan the next fight so much as distribute tasks to get ready for the next fight-- figure out who will scout the Hellblades, who will go recruit allies, etc.  We've got... a really big group here; I'm in favor of splitting up into separate scenes once everyone is on the same page.  I'd be glad to discuss that OOC as well as IC (splitting the PCs usually involves OOC considerations anyways).

----------


## MagneticDragon

> Did Ferrous listened to/take into account  Blanc's leadership bit? I am uncertain.


Yes. They did not address it directly, as unlike Yohaan she did not say anything he felt the need to object to. But everyone is saying 'Let's not sort out a leader now' and Ferrous is accepting that choice. Acknowledging - as Blanc suggested - that the planning and plotting could help them decide who should be leader.




> Right now, Tide isn't aiming to plan the next fight so much as distribute tasks to get ready for the next fight-- figure out who will scout the Hellblades, who will go recruit allies, etc.  We've got... a really big group here; I'm in favor of splitting up into separate scenes once everyone is on the same page.  I'd be glad to discuss that OOC as well as IC (splitting the PCs usually involves OOC considerations anyways).


Ah right, that wasn't entirely clear honestly. But it does seem that Tide and Ferrous (maybe Puck as well if they are still around) will be scouting, while others might be seeking to recruit any further allies.

I think Yohaan might be the best at recruiting others. They've definitely left an impact with their 'phoenix' shtick. As for what the rest might do... help find people for Yohaan to talk to? Shop for supplies? Though Ferrous' supplies would be quite specific...

----------


## Yas392

Having Blanc suggest Telepathy IC is me wanting to metagame the planning in OOC.

----------


## MagneticDragon

On the one hand, it would make things quicker. No longer waiting on a single individual - me - to keep the RP going. 

On the other hand, this IC planning discussion is allowing for character development and interaction. I would never have imagined that Ferrous is sort of taking on a teacher-esque role with Yohaan, but that seems to be the case currently.

I'm fine either way, so I'll let the rest decide.

----------


## Dieuoffire

I have done multi location pbp stuff before. So I don't mind you guys doing that.

I don't mind you guys using OoC. Just as long as IC doesn't take massive jumps. I like to be able to read the IC as a story. However "we take an hour and share what we learned and discuss our strengths" is a legitimate way to introduce a finished plan.

Happy to see you guys are going to be doing some research and scouting. 

My adventures come with some complexity (Fair warning). I figure that the Hellblades would not have made it to where they are without some intelligence.

----------


## Yas392

> On the one hand, it would make things quicker. No longer waiting on a single individual - me - to keep the RP going.


This as well. The conversation seemingly slowed to a crawl.

----------


## Dieuoffire

Just thought of something.

Whenever someone asked an open ended question everybody else reads it but doesn't respond because everyone is waiting for everyone else; hence nobody answers for days. Open ended questions are not bad, they are great at discovering new information for everyone involved. However the question must be handled differently than when asked in person. In person silence is an answer, in PBP silence is not an answer; people just think others haven't read it yet. 

In order to stop the 'open ended stall' and yet acknowledge the question  I recommend that if you have something to say please don't wait. However please begin your post by acknowledging the question so it is not forgotten and people don't think they were ignored. The characters can say something like "No I don't have (xyz ability) but I have this idea..." 

I know when I thought about the current question I thought "well if I was a character I would just stay silent because I don't have it." But people don't usually post "I stay silent" 

sorry just had a feeling everybody was waiting for someone else to post 'I have it' and since everyone is waiting I think the answer might be everyone silently looking back and forth at each other shaking their heads.

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## D&DPrinceTandem

When I say the past week has been painstakingly wretched I mean it with the utmost bile towards my work place. That aside, working on a response now.

----------


## Book Wombat

Hmm yeah, I think discussing this kinda stuff would work better in OoC.

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## MagneticDragon

Well, without IC stuff, not sure if anyone could get voted in as leader, so I suppose that should wait till later.

So what _are_ the limitations of the beads? 

And from the looks of it, Tide and Ferrous are going on a scouting/tracking mission with Ghost's nose. While the rest are going to be looking to recruit allies and go shopping? Not sure who there is to potentially recruit outside of the dwarf who has now passed out, and shopping won't take that long...

----------


## Cassus

There was mention of more experienced townsfolk backing away from the expedition when we gave our initial speech, and the dwarf was talking about a clan or some such that made the armor the ogres stole and was nearby.  Not sure about the shopping, but the dwarves at least should take a bit?

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## Dieuoffire

The dwarf was from a nearby nation, not nearby. Of course depending upon your ability to cover distance nearby is always relative.

----------


## Yas392

> Well, without IC stuff, not sure if anyone could get voted in as leader, so I suppose that should wait till later.
> 
> So what _are_ the limitations of the beads? 
> 
> And from the looks of it, Tide and Ferrous are going on a scouting/tracking mission with Ghost's nose. While the rest are going to be looking to recruit allies and go shopping? Not sure who there is to potentially recruit outside of the dwarf who has now passed out, and shopping won't take that long...


From Blanc's view, it is either Tide or Ferrous. Blanc has no trouble taking leadership if situation calls for it. Her leadership is laissez faire as opposed to authoritarian.

----------


## Book Wombat

> So what _are_ the limitations of the beads?


Basically Glyphs of Warding on marbles and other objects, so breaking it releases a stored harmful spell of level 3 or lower. Esme can make a dozen in two hours, and then she's spent for the day. She also has squares of canvas for Energy Wall. As a Psion it doesn't have any material costs.

----------


## D&DPrinceTandem

Alright so hindsight, it is proving much more difficult to develop an IC response to everything while still getting across what i want to say. I will throw my hat into the bucket of OOC planning if it helps. I spent the entire weekend drafting and redrafting a response and was found wanting with each iteration.

----------


## MagneticDragon

So Yas, quick question, not sure if this was answered IC. But can you use your Ice powers to create a sheet of ice? Basically, creating difficult terrain, or even replicating the grease spell? The pillars were covered, but I'm not sure about the rest of the answer. 




> There was mention of more experienced townsfolk backing away from the expedition when we gave our initial speech, and the dwarf was talking about a clan or some such that made the armor the ogres stole and was nearby.  Not sure about the shopping, but the dwarves at least should take a bit?


Good point, finding the people that Ferrous successfully persuaded to back away might be a good plan. They won't be the best help, and would best be kept away from the frontlines. But they could come in useful...




> The dwarf was from a nearby nation, not nearby. Of course depending upon your ability to cover distance nearby is always relative.


True enough, but I do not believe that level 9 characters have access to teleport or similar. So that will likely not be an option. Admittedly, someone will need to talk to the dwarf about the fact he apparently thinks he's gonna get killed thanks to the failure to deliver the armour...

And potentially talk him into joining them to try to get it back. If he's dead anyway, he might as well die fighting, no?




> Basically Glyphs of Warding on marbles and other objects, so breaking it releases a stored harmful spell of level 3 or lower. Esme can make a dozen in two hours, and then she's spent for the day. She also has squares of canvas for Energy Wall. As a Psion it doesn't have any material costs.


Hmmm, I see. How much do they cost to make? As I'm assuming that these do not come for free? Though if they are free, that is quite delightful, and I would be very curious about how you manage to avoid the material costs for these one-shot items.

And when you say they can storm a harmful spell of level 3 or lower. Is that _any_ spell, as long as our characters might reasonably know the spell? Because I can provide the damage (as mentioned above), but being able to set up a surprise Web or other similar spells might work.

And if these are just marbles that need breaking. Can't they theoretically be launched using a sling? Or do they require an action to actually break?

----------


## Book Wombat

> Hmmm, I see. How much do they cost to make? As I'm assuming that these do not come for free? Though if they are free, that is quite delightful, and I would be very curious about how you manage to avoid the material costs for these one-shot items.
> 
> And when you say they can storm a harmful spell of level 3 or lower. Is that _any_ spell, as long as our characters might reasonably know the spell? Because I can provide the damage (as mentioned above), but being able to set up a surprise Web or other similar spells might work.
> 
> And if these are just marbles that need breaking. Can't they theoretically be launched using a sling? Or do they require an action to actually break?


Psionic Powers don't have any components, so the psionic version of the Glyph of Warding doesn't have the 200gp diamond dust requirement. From how it is described, I think the power put into it has to be known by the caster and is included in the power point cost. The spell does have to be harmful, so I got some with Amethyst Burst and some with Entangling Ectoplasm.
The thing is that it doesn't release the power if it is thrown and broken, the target has to break (read "forcefully open") it themselves otherwise the 'ward' doesn't activate. So the effect doesn't actually emanate from the the marble, but directly from the target.

----------


## MagneticDragon

> Psionic Powers don't have any components, so the psionic version of the Glyph of Warding doesn't have the 200gp diamond dust requirement. From how it is described, I think the power put into it has to be known by the caster and is included in the power point cost. The spell does have to be harmful, so I got some with Amethyst Burst and some with Entangling Ectoplasm.
> The thing is that it doesn't release the power if it is thrown and broken, the target has to break (read "forcefully open") it themselves otherwise the 'ward' doesn't activate. So the effect doesn't actually emanate from the the marble, but directly from the target.


That's fair enough. It can't quite be a marble either, it has to be something you actually need to _open_ from the looks of it. Even so, the price isn't going to be that significant either way.

The problem with this however, is that if it is limited to powers known... then, it's very much limited in options. Entangling Ectoplasm is a targetted effect, so the creature who opens it _must_ be the one who we want to be affected by the power. That leaves us with Amethyst Burst, which sure, is a decent AoE effect. But it's pretty hard to scale up the damage into something truly deverstating. And outside of that, Psionics just, doesn't have that much in terms of AoE disability. Energy Wall is a nice option admittedly, but that seems to be the only one.

Honestly, I think in terms of setting up traps... I might actually do better. Tanglefoot bags are excellent for single-target lockdown. Even if they cost 10gp a go. Firestones are easy to proc and deal 2d6 damage in a 5ft area when activated, with no save. But thanks to how they work, it's not too difficult to make a bunch of them, put them in a sack, and drop the sac all at once. Assuming there is 10 in a bag, which costs 100gp for me to make, that's 20d6 fire damage all at once. 

However, I've even got a powerful option for AoE as well. The Explosive Pack. Normally, it only does 1d6 Bludgeoning & Slashing Damage in a 5ft Radius for 200gp. But you can stack it all the way up to 10d6 damage, and the radius increases for every 3d6 damage, maxing out at 20ft radius. Thanks to the Tall Tale class, my explosive packs deal 20d6 damage for 400gp each. The only downside is that they have a 1 round delay. So you need to activate it and wait an entire round before they go off, but when they do, they really go boom. 

Admittedly, I always wondered about the ruling on that. Explosive Pack's increase in 5ft radius for every 3d6 damage they deal. Does that mean a Tall Tale Explosive Pack, which makes out at 20d6 damage, would actually have a radius of 35ft?

----------


## Book Wombat

> That's fair enough. It can't quite be a marble either, it has to be something you actually need to _open_ from the looks of it. Even so, the price isn't going to be that significant either way.


Mm, the marbles are hollow so that they can be "opened" with magic. Breaking them seems to count as forcefully opening them.
Thr Glyph's damage can be increased by a d10 every two ML above 5 I get (currently ML 8).So yeah, in general the damage isn't outstanding but they can be prepared easily.

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## Yas392

> So Yas, quick question, not sure if this was answered IC. But can you use your Ice powers to create a sheet of ice? Basically, creating difficult terrain, or even replicating the grease spell? The pillars were covered, but I'm not sure about the rest of the answer.


Blanc did answer in a vague way e.g limited control over shapes. Edited recent IC to make it clearer.

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## Dieuoffire

The tall tale ability would make the blast bigger. Past the normal area.

The wards need to be placed upon something that can be opened or an area.

"...A glyph of warding can guard a bridge or passage, ward a portal, trap a chest or box, and so on..."

"and so on" means more of the same, not something entirely different.

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## MagneticDragon

Okay, so. Regardless of what we might be able to do before a fight. We still need to track foes and find new allies.

Does anyone disagree with the fact that Tide & Ferrous (and Ghost) will head off tracking the Hellblades, while the rest of the team either gets new supplies (like a Flask Launcher & Vial Arrows for Ferrous) and more allies?




> The tall tale ability would make the blast bigger. Past the normal area.


Oooh, very nice. I like big booms~

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## Book Wombat

> The wards need to be placed upon something that can be opened or an area.
> 
> "...A glyph of warding can guard a bridge or passage, ward a portal, trap a chest or box, and so on..."
> 
> "and so on" means more of the same, not something entirely different.


Ah, I checked the recruitment thread again and saw where I misunderstood you. Thought that since the warded "area" of the marbles was internal it wouldn't be "open" like e.g. Repulsion since the warded area never actually goes into the target's space when thrown.
Since you seemed fine with them, would it be fine if I "converted" the charged marbles to canvas squares (area trigger when stepped on?)?

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## Dieuoffire

Absolutely,

The warded canvas should work the same with only minor adjustments to usage.

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## Cassus

To make sure we're all on the same page-- Once the warded canvas is deployed, what will it take to trigger?  Would an enemy need to step on it, or would just throwing it in an enemy's face trigger it?

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## Dieuoffire

They must enter the warded area. The warded area moving to the enemy is not the same thing.

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## MagneticDragon

Okay. Checking one last time.

Ferrous and Tide are going tracking. The rest are looking for allies/shopping. 

Does anyone disagree with this split? 

If there is no disagreements before tomorrow, I'll make a post to get us moving along.

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## Yas392

Blanc is waiting for a response on telepathy.

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## Book Wombat

> Okay. Checking one last time.
> 
> Ferrous and Tide are going tracking. The rest are looking for allies/shopping. 
> 
> Does anyone disagree with this split? 
> 
> If there is no disagreements before tomorrow, I'll make a post to get us moving along.


Been busy for a bit, but this should be fine. Esme will probably first spend two hours making more wards, and then join the others.



As for telepathy, she can only do that with her psicrystal.

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## MagneticDragon

Gosh, darn work...

Finally got my post up, and I really don't want this game to die. The first fight was quite engaging, and I am excited to explore what the Tall Tale class can do with its very unconventional abilities.

Hope you don't mind that I basically just skipped us to the end of the conversation Casus, but I felt like we needed to get out of the talking stage and into the _doing_ stage once again.

And maybe send some DMs round to see who is still around.

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## Novabomb

I am still around, however my actions are spoken for until the next day.

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## Cassus

Actually, the main reason I wasn't skipping to the end was, given the long delay, I wanted to see who was still "present" so that no one's stuck waiting in a group for someone who's quietly dropped out.  Believe me, I want to move forwards as much as you do, but not everyone has posted even since we went into the tavern!

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## MagneticDragon

That's true. 

I think we should send DMs out to PrinceTandem and Yas392 to let them know that the game is still on and we are moving forwards if they are still interested. 

I understand why you would not skip ahead, but considering the fact we've been stalling rather badly, I do think it is best to just get going as best we can.

----------


## Yas392

We haven't heard from Ripptor or Xav in a while. I think we should re-open recruitment. Blanc can connect new blood to the party with her recent actions to fast-forward the game.

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## Dieuoffire

Recruitment might be a good idea.

Why is it I have such bad luck? I hope I am not doing anything wrong. (LMK if I am) Option 2 which I was hoping to avoid because I wanted to start at 9th level (landlord possible option for my optional nobility rules) is to do some leveling. I would rather have 4 good players than 8 who cannot keep the game going. the adventure was also designed for 8 players to allow for other reasons too. I can adjust that or, hmm leadership... (that is a really bad but fun idea...)

----------


## Cassus

Well...  If you're asking...  *There are ways to increase posting speed as a GM*-- setting some expectations (like "at least one post per week") or making threats ("For every three days of real time, one hour of game time passes, whatever you do with it") would be the most direct ways.  You can also make things move faster more subtly by keeping the PCs moving in units of 2-3 (In a party of two, after all, a person is either "up" or has just posted, one or the other).  I'd recommend setting a minimum posting rate at least (one that you, yourself can commit to).

*It's also something we players can/should work on*-- we could make a point of including at least one thing that asks a response from another person in every non-combat post, for instance, or post in the OOC regularly even if we're not posting in the IC to let people know if we are/aren't about to do something IC (Ferrous does this a lot with his "I'm still alive" posts already).  We could also wait for each other less (right now, I suspect there's a lot of waiting going on OOC-- someone complained a week was too little time to write a proper post, so we're all probably waiting to make sure everyone posts each time before we move on).

Fundamentally, though, and I'm really sorry to have to say this, *eight people is a problem*.  It's barely functional as a group when everyone's at the same physical table or Discord voice chat and the DM can "swing the spotlight" on a regular basis to keep things moving.   I've never, ever seen it work in play-by-post.  There are inevitable issues (someone has writer's block, someone has a rough week at work, etc) that cause delays.  In a small group, those bad days are balanced out by good days.  But in a large group, if everyone has one bad day per week, at least one person is pretty much ALWAYS having an off day... and then the week is gone.


So!  Question for you: Do you need eight _players_ or eight _PCs_ for the adventure?  If it's the latter...  Give some serious thought to asking if anyone wants to run multiple PCs, then just frequently have those PCs split up (different scenes/initiative counts/whatever).  I'd prefer the "be two characters" approach more than Leadership, honestly, just to create more action.  If you can build some momentum with the small group, it might even be easier if you did recruit another person or two later.

If it's the former...  Eh...  that sounds a lot like you want to have the PCs working at cross-purposes, honestly, either as different factions or with outright traitors/infiltrators.  That's tricky to manage, especially without setting it out up front.  No real advice if that's the goal.

----------


## Novabomb

> Recruitment might be a good idea.
> 
> Why is it I have such bad luck? I hope I am not doing anything wrong. (LMK if I am) Option 2 which I was hoping to avoid because I wanted to start at 9th level (landlord possible option for my optional nobility rules) is to do some leveling. I would rather have 4 good players than 8 who cannot keep the game going. the adventure was also designed for 8 players to allow for other reasons too. I can adjust that or, hmm leadership... (that is a really bad but fun idea...)


The main problem I see is a lack of party cohesion.

This starts with a lack of shared history between the characters (Which is natural since applications are done individually, and not in groups).  The best ways that I can think to fix this would be after selection to ask the players to organize in an OOC way, OR add to the premise that the characters joined <group name>.

Part of the continuation is that the nature of the main reward (title and land) is not perceived to be divisible, which encourages competition, which has tack on effects regarding trust and leadership.

8 is also a very large number to have in pbp if they are to be working together.  It is problematic for decision making.

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## Dieuoffire

Good advise. Let's start making some course corrections.
@Cassus 
First POSTING RATE
*I would like players to post at least once per 3-4 days (about 2/week but not at the same time). If you are gone for two weeks in a row I will assume you are dropping unless you have made arrangements for extended absence.* 

if you make arrangements I will give the agreed upon time where another can play your PC. (the show must go on) if you take the agreed upon time and then still do not return for an additional week, I will assume you are out. 

Secondly EIGHT Players. 
I admit I wanted a lot going on here. But my old nemesis Reality has stuck its nose into my fantasy world and called me out. Although as a DM I can bend my fantasy world to my will, I cannot do so to reality. [fist shaking] So I will not be recruiting again when others disappear unless we fall down to under 3. 

Instead I am asking for a vote: 
Option 1. 
Allow at least a single cohort per PC even without leadership feat and then MORE with the feat? So everyone gets multiple turns in a round. _[caveat] The Cohorts cannot be as complicated as the Major characters (there are already a lot of complicated abilities going around.)_ Cohorts do not have PC benefit to survival, a single bad roll or crit and they can and will die. 

OR

Option 2. 
Inflict rapid XP bonuses in the form of story awards etc. I will start LOOKING for ways to award XP. If we are down to 4 PCs you will be gaining 2 levels very quickly (probably double monster XP too)

For example a group of NPCs was just saved from certain death. Not only that but others where saved by simply being convinced not to go. (an NPC saved is an XP bonus earned!)

If anyone objects to the new Posting rate (2/week) I could be persuaded to go down to 1/week min but I strongly prefer 2/week. 

*This vote will be open for 3 days. The IC game will be continuing while this is going on.* 

@Novabomb
I see your point here but shared history is starting to form already. So this will hopefully solve itself. (Hopefully)

Not divisible. Hmm, that is something that did not cross my mind. However, here I disagree. Even if only one could get land and title; Land have value and so does title. It should not be too hard for the group to figure out a way to divide the reward similar to getting one powerful magical item. 

For example: 
How much do you think land and title is worth if a wonderful group discussion. Everyone can put in a blind bid and see who is the real winner, or who overpaid by the most.

Not trying to dismiss your concerns/opinions, they are real. My optimism just hopes that these concerns will naturally resolve through good gameplay.

----------


## Yas392

I do not mind the mix of two. Blanc has innate leadership feat from classes already. Due to her nature, she will not use them as sacrificial lambs. If she accrues cohorts either through diplomacy/RP, she will have them work behind the scenes for the party's benefits.

----------


## Dieuoffire

so I've had one player respond I will give it another 3 days. not trying to be rude but I want to get things moving.

----------


## Cassus

@Posting Rate
Sounds entirely reasonable!  What I personally will do is post every three days, whether that's an IC post or an OOC post explaining what I'm waiting on IC.

For instance: 
@Ferrous: Tide has no shopping to do, so he's waiting on Ferrous to finish shopping so they can go.
(I think the original plan was actually for Ferrous and Tide to head out ASAP while the rest of the party took Ferrous's shopping list, but since the rest of the party is very small now...)

@VOTE:
I vote for option #1 (possibly without leadership allowing extra cohorts; not sure).  While, as a player, I love getting all the shiny new toys leveling brings...  as a storyteller, I've found that slower, more natural leveling and "earning" the power makes narratives much more interesting that gaining the power during backstories (it's weird, but I've found it's easier to run a fun campaign from level 3ish to level 21ish than from level 18 to level 21).

**That being said, you should probably make it clear what (narrative) role you want the cohorts to fill.  For instance, Blanc talked about having her cohort working behind the scenes.  Did you intend for the cohorts to be out in combat encounters participating as equals (to handle the CR you've set)?
If so, "cohort" might not be a good way to go-- I'm not sure I could build a cohort (assuming that "cohort" means "Stays 2 levels below the PC, uses NPC wealth by level rules, doesn't use homebrew content, which I admit is an assumption) that could handle the type of fight we were just in without some really, really heavy optimization.


@Title/Novabomb:
I also think this would be fun to address through RP.  There're a lot of rewards floating around besides the title, not all party members might even want the title, and we can likely come up with something-- a tontine, blind bids, etc-- in character to hand out the reward at the end.

----------


## Dieuoffire

I should clarify on cohorts. When I say do not get too attached I don't mean that they are to be used as cannon fodder. I mean that they are entering a dangerous ring at a higher level than their own. I have no intention of going out of my way to turn them into a bloody smear on the ground but I will not go out of my way to save them either. 

The role you want to use them for is up to you. Usefulness is not always defined by damage, even in combat.

----------


## Book Wombat

Sorry for the late reply, was a bit busy with Christmas and family.
Posting rate should be fine after the new year. I don't mind either option in terms of power.

----------


## Yas392

Is Tide replying to the group or the scouts?

----------


## Cassus

As far as I can tell, we've split up from the inn's back room; Tide and Ferrous are (hopefully) heading out of town quickly to scout.

----------


## Novabomb

I am not particularly interested in running a second character, thus I prefer option 2.

On the matter of information gathering, it is possible that people gathering information in town may learn of Toboruk's activities.
(While this meeting was going on, he was finding a place to stay and looking for potential participants [Only mentioning since it has been long enough since that post was made that it was forgotten])

----------


## Yas392

OK. Blanc's incoming response for that post is invalid.

----------


## Dieuoffire

Thanks novabomb, I was sure I missed something. I will reread that post and reply.

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## Yas392

What roll am I making for Blanc?

----------


## Cassus

Right, 's been three days.  Ferrous/MagneticDragon, wassup?  You waiting on something from me, or did I push past a scene you wanted to post?

----------


## Dieuoffire

@yas392
Ferrous was attempting to evaluate the quality of the NPCs that he was talking to, if you want to do the same you could make a roll, if you score high enough you might be able to deduce more about an individual. IF you don't care to you would not need to roll anything. 

@MagneticDragon
it has been a while, Are you ready to go out scouting?

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## Book Wombat

Not sure if it is worth a post in the IC, but Esme goes with Toboruk to their new accomodations and spends the day (afternoon?) charging nine pieces of canvas.

*Spoiler: Notes*
Show


Status:
*HP:* 46/46
*AC:* 23 (21)
*PP:* 8 / 78


*Feline Transformation:* Human form (Small).
*Dark Vision:* 60ft. 
*Psicrystal Sight:* 40ft.
*Planar Ward:* Protection from mental control, possession and enchantment (charm/compulsion) effects.


*Psionic Focus:* Active
When psionic focus is maintained, following effects are active:
*Moonstone:* Insight bonus of +2 to AC and all saving throws.
*Sapphire:* Passive Touchsight, 30ft.

 
Effects: 
*Inertial Armour:* +6 to , cast at dawn and lasts 18 hours.

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## Yas392

What is Blanc rolling? Sense Motive? Wisdom Check?

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## Dieuoffire

@yas392

it is sense motive if you want.

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## Yas392

*Sense Motive:* (1d20+5)[*8*]

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## Dieuoffire

That does not reveal anything new.

Has Ferrous disappeared? We need to move on here.

So let's assume that ferrous is done shopping and that tide and ferrous are ready to go scout. 

Also if ferrous does not make a move soon his character will get lost while out scouting and we will move on.

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## Yas392

*@novabomb* Come to think of it. The different recruiting times might make it hard for Blanc to meet Toboruk at a fixed location. Perhaps it is a better scene if they both bump into each other while Toboruk is recruiting. I am not sure if it needs a roll so I will defer to Dieuoffice's judgment.

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## Novabomb

I am not opposed to coincidence, I think it would be notable enough to merit a scene.

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## Dieuoffire

The scene would both be notable and likely to happen, you are both looking for the same kind of people, you are both looking in the same general area and you are both some of the most easily recognizable people in town (higher levels are usually of note).

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## MagneticDragon

I am around! My apologises, I got dragged away by the Winter Holidays, and struggled to find the time to come back to the RP. I will read up on what I have missed and move to make a post as soon as possible.

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## Cassus

Welcome back!  Any idea how long it'll probably be?  I can wait a day or two for you to catch up IC.

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## Dieuoffire

Always nice to have a player return.

Also,

Ferrous can catch up at the battle site. When Tide took off he flew a bit faster than Ferrous moved, so you arrive just a bit behind him.

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## MagneticDragon

Hmmm, you know, I had not considered poison before now, as I did not believe that the Tall Tale class features would function with them. However, after poking and proding around, it seems that you _can_ use Craft: Alchemy in order to make poisons at a -4 penalty. Which means that the Tall Tale's Exaggerated Skills _should_ work in this regard.

Still, I have to check. *@Dieuoffire*: Does the Tall Tale's Exaggerated Skill Craft (Alchemy) work with poisons?

And if so, how are we calculating the poisons I can make? From what I've read, only certain poisons can normally be made, but there seems to be contradictory information about what can and cannot be crafted?

Edit: Also, I have read over the previous conversation, and I think I have to agree with  Cassus, I would much rather have Ferrous grow in power where appropriate, rather than having their power increase be rushed for the sake of having power. A cohort of some description might be more appropriate for them than anything else.

... Only question is what type of cohort I would want to play. I've been recently enamoured with the Artificer Class and I am desperate to try them out, but Ferrous is kinda anti-magic, and while an Artificer uses magic items more than magic directly, they'll still be using magic in the end, so Ferrous would not want them as a cohort.




> Welcome back!  Any idea how long it'll probably be?  I can wait a day or two for you to catch up IC.


Today or tomorrow for sure. I'm cooking dinner tonight and work was quiet tiring, so maybe not tonight.

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## Dieuoffire

Your tall tale ability would make your poisons very dangerous. But poisons have been noted as being rather weak in D&D. I'm inclined to say that I would allow it to work. 

Crafting poisions can be done for any DC that you can make as long as you can get the ingredients. Many of the more exotic or powerful poisons require a source. (Purple worm, balor, etc.) Generally speaking poisons are also not always seen as the best moral path. 

If you are interested I would recommend you look at the campaign setting too. There are a lot of interesting things in the poison woods.

Your campaign preferences are noted.

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## Dieuoffire

Don't like to double post but i still need Tide's survival check for tracking (you gave a perception check, but that does not work for tracking.)

The other characters i have notes your actions, but since there is no need of a DM to say anything other than, OK. You can all continue your interactions at the inns of your various choosing.

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## Yas392

Unfortunate that MagneticDragon got banned. Will be posting Blanc's reply to Toboruk later today.

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## Cassus

Banned?  Ouch.  So at this point the cast who've posted in the last month would be...  Tide, Blanc, Esme, and Toboruk, right?  Anyone else waiting in the wings?

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## Dieuoffire

4 when the adventure was planned for 8. Yep ok so adjusting a few things here. (Looks at BEBG and cringes. Right, we can do this...)

:)

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