LGBTAitp #33: The Thread at the end of the Rainbow

[Astrella]

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the thread for the discussion, celebration and support of of everyone who isn't quite heterocisnormative.

Please note that although the title of the thread names only the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Asexual communities, it is intended as an all inclusive environment. Everyone is welcome. L, G, B,T, A, Q, I, A, N, V, P, R, Q, Ω, ♅, everyone. As long as they behave themselves.

If you have a question or two about LGBTA+, you can ask it here! You can ask for advice and support in here.

In addition, many members are willing to give private advice one on one, either through email or PM. The best way to do this is asking for PM help in thread.

• Everyone is welcome. Let's try to keep from seeming otherwise.
• Keep this topic free of politics and religion. (so, don't violate the board rules, plz)
• It's beyond the scope of this thread to discuss whether LGBT is "Right." (And really, most discussions probably should avoid moralizing too much anyway)
• Please refrain from posting sexually explicit content. (Keep it friendly as well as board safe )

Here are the links for the previous threads, where much of use or interest may be found:

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1. LGBT people in the playground
   
2. LGBT people in the playground - part II
   
3. LGBTitp - part III
   
4. LGBTitp 4: We are a family?
   
5. LGBTitp - Part Five
   
6. LGBTitp - Part Six
   
7. LGBTitp - Part Seven
   
8. LGBTitp - Part Eight
   
9. LGBTitp - Part Nine
   
10. LGBTAitp - Part Ten
    
11. LGBTAitp - Part Eleven
    
12. LGBTAitp - Part Twelve
    
13. LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen
    
14. LGBTAitp - Part Fourteen
    
15. LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen
    
16. LGBTAitp - Part Sixteen
    
17. LGBTAitp - Part Seventeen
    
18. LGBTAitp - Part Eighteen!
    
19. LGBTAitp - Part Nineteen
    
20. LGBTAitp - Part Twenty - Critical Hit!
    
21. LGBTAitp - Part Twenty-One - BLACKJACK!
    
22. LGBTAitP Part 22: The Best There Is
    
23. LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca?
    
24. LGBTAitP: Alphabet Soup-with 24 different Vitamins!
    
25. LGBTAitP part 25: Doing Away With Subtitles
    
26. LGBTAitP 26: No Time For Snappy Titles
    
27. LGBTAitP 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax
    
28. LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
    
29. LGBTAitP #29: The Rainbow Outreach Program
    
30. LGBTAitP 30: Free Cuddles (Enquire Within)
    
31. LGBTAitP #31: Cuddles Are On Back Order. Have Some Snuggles!
    
32. LGBTAitp #32: The Great Plushie Invasion!

And, for reference, here is the Thousand&Wordster Dictionary of Commonly Used LGBTAitp Words and Phrases

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Lagerbeta: A fine brewski to be drunk by queers and allies.
LGBT: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans*
Trans*: Transsexual and Transgender
LGBTA: LGBT+Asexual/Allies
QUILTBAG:

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Q - Queer and Questioning
U - Unidentified
I - Intersex
L - Lesbian
T - Transgender, Transexual
B - Bisexual
A - Asexual
G - Gay, Genderqueer

Allies: Straight people that support equality for sexuality and gender minorities.
MtF: Male-to-Female: A woman born with male nibblies, who may or may not be seeking HRT and/or SRS. (AKA: trans woman)
FtM: Female-to-Male: A man born with female nibblies, who may or may not be seeking HRT and/or SRS. (AKA: trans man)
GQ: Genderqueer.
CS: Cis-sexual: sex and gender match (a male with male nibblies, a female with female nibblies.
TS: Transsexual: Sex and gender disparity.
HRT: Hormone replacement therapy. MtF's take more progestrogens and oestrogens and FtM's take more testosterone (I think?)
SRS: Sex Reassignment Surgery: Surgery to replace/transform a vagina into a penis, or vice versa depending on direction. Mastectomies or plastic surgery may be used on breasts.
FFS: Facial Feminization Surgery: Plastic surgery to reduce chin/nose/cheekbones. not very common.
AFAB/AMAB: Assigned Female/Male at Birth
FAAB/MAAB: Female/Male Assigned at Birth.


Man: A cisman or transman. Male.
Woman: A ciswoman or transwoman. Female.
Androgyne: Gender Identity with male and female aspects.
Genderfluid: Someone who fluctuates between male and female.
Agendered: Someone who feels neither male nor female.
Third-gendered: Someone who fits in a local society's third gender, usually male performing female tasks, occasionally vice versa.
Masculine: Something generally associated with men.
Feminine: Something generally associated with women.

Lesbian: A woman who is attracted to women.
Gay: A man who is attracted to men.
Homosexual: A person who is attracted to members of their gender.
Heterosexual: A person who is attracted to members of the opposite gender.
Bisexual: A person who is attracted to two genders (usually men and women, sometimes transgender instead of one of those).
Pansexual: A person who is attracted to people regardless of gender.
Asexual: A person who does not feel any/some sexual attraction.
Demisexual: A person who is sexually attracted to someone(s) they have formed an intense emotional relationship with.
Polyamorous: A person who is interested in a relationship with more than one person.
Radosexual: A person who is only attracted to rad people.
Pomosexual: A person who avoids SO labels.

Sexual Orientation: How one identifies who they are attracted to. (SO)
Gender Identity: How one feels inside society's idea of "man, woman, or other". (GI)
Gender Expression: How one expresses their GI to society. (GE)
Significant Other(s): Person you are in a relationship with. (SO)

[Karen Lynn]

Gotta love that new thread smell.

[Raineh Daze]

N, V, P, R, Q, Ω, ♅,

Okay, I can guess the P, but I think the others in this block currently have me stumped.

Also, you already have a Q.

[Mionelle]

Yay, new thread! *snuggles everyone* (instead of writing comparative analysis of works of art, meh ;P)

[noparlpf]

It's not about you it's about them with regards to men and space safing and not safing.

Yeah, and that's another part of why I get over it.

[Astrella]

Okay, I can guess the P, but I think the others in this block currently have me stumped.

Also, you already have a Q.

I think a few of them might have been jokes from an old thread... >.>

The two Q's are generally for Questioning and for Queer.

Honestly, I prefer GSM or GSRM myself. (Gender, Sexual and Romantic Minorities) cause it's a lot simpler and inclusive from the get go but LGBT+ is a lot more recognizable.

[Raineh Daze]

I keep pronouncing LGBT in my head as Lugerbutt. Which sounds inherently hazardous. XD

[Lorsa]

Ohhh, new thread! I was going to say something but I totally forgot what it was about. Probably something about Karen's new skirts I am sure.

[TaiLiu]

Ohhh, new thread! I was going to say something but I totally forgot what it was about. Probably something about Karen's new skirts I am sure.

Karen obtained new skirts?

[Karen Lynn]

On skirts: I get a lot of laughs(and one time, assistance) when going into hot topic.
"Welcome to HT, can I help you find anything?"
"Yeah, I need some skirts that make it look like I actually have hips."

Guys, of course, have been useless and just give me blank stares...

Karen obtained new skirts?

Not yet. I'm looking to go out and buy some with my tax return.

Also: I got the job! Home nightly, off weekends, kick ass paycheck! Looks like I'll be starting next week!
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Lissou: I think you've pretty much hit on all my feels for it.

[Lissou]

Yeah, I get annoyed sometimes at "women only" things being fine and "male only" things being a no-no.

I remember when I wanted to support my ex in working out, I thought we could both join a gym: him because he wanted to work out, me to be his emotional support... and vice-versa. No way I could have worked out without him.
Well every gym I contacted started with "and one of our advantage is, we're female only!" and was shocked when it was my reason for not joining.

I totally get the rape victim thing, if you were raped by a male, you might become scared of males in general, and until your trauma has been dealt with and you feel better, it's best to be away from them. It does suck for male rape victims though, who often don't have a place to go because the places that welcome rape victims also ban males.

But when it's a gym, surely it would make more sense to ban the creeps than all males. What if you want to work out with a friend or partner who is male? And it's not like there was only one gym like that, I couldn't find one that wasn't within an hour of where I lived, which leads me to wonder, what did men who wanted to go to the gym do?

I think when there is a trauma it makes some sense. When there isn't, banning all men is counterproductive, because by banning all men instead of the problem cases, they're kind of saying "that kind of problem goes with being male" or "all males do that" which actually ends up making excuses for their behavior "not their fault. They're not complete douches with no respect for other people, they're just men. It's built into them to be that way."
And that's definitely a problem.
Also, it's implying that you can't be perved on at the gym by a woman, which I assure you, you can.

[Eldest]

www.areyouafeminist.com

This is the test I would have written. I approve.

[SiuiS]

No. At least that's not what I view 'friendzone' as. My view on it is when a person says "I won't go out with you" and then tries to soften the blow by adding "but we can still be friends, right?" Which is no consolation at the time. It's an acknowledgement of the fact that no one is truly 'pansexual' - that there will always be people a given person turns down, even though they still like them. That friendship and love are two separate things and although they should ideally coincide, they don't always.

The friend zone is where you won't let a friend move up, because doing so ruins the friendship somehow. That is, it's where you put people who aren't good enough for you so they stay in orbit but can't get any closer. It's always something that happens to you, an action. It's a place you're relegated to, and always in the sense of "I was almost in, but then she friend-zoned me", like you somehow deserve to be in my pants but then I sidelined you and it so unfair.

I find it inherently entitled and, frankly, full of crap. If not in idea then in use – and I'm full aware I usually don't judge concepts or words by their use alone. So, sorry. This may come across vitriolic out of nowhere >_<

Logging back to the forums since... Forever...

The bill allowing same-sex marriage has been approved here in Uruguay (81 to 6 in the Lower House in Dec 2012, and 23 to 8 in the Senate, yesterday).

Eventhough I don't relate personally, this is the first time I've actually been proud of being from where I am.

Now you can all go back to discussing the next thread's name .

Haha! Cool!

This is a good point (although not quite the best metaphor, considering I tend to enjoy meat anywhere on a broad spectrum of medium rare to slightly burnt).

Well, in this metaphor you were the meat, and the booze was the heat. :P

I kinda lost track of the thread when I moved out of my parents' place. Actually, I'm still totally behind considering I have to walk to the library to get online.

Yeah, there is that >_<

SiuiS: *All good points and pretty clear. *I'm also inordinately amused/pleased/tickled that you used the word heuristic. *Beep, boop, beep...

Good. Sometimes I ramble.

Why is that amusing?

A little belly is sexy on a woman.

A lot of things are sexy on a woman or man. Really, it's more about how the parts fit together than any one thing.

So today at the school's career center I found a little postcard-sized thing with clothing tips for job interviews.
One side is for guys, and literally only shows how to tie a Windsor knot and why it's the best, most confident-looking knot for a tie. That and a picture of a dude with a tie tied around his head, but I don't think that's related.
On the side for girls, there is a lengthy list of what to wear and what not to wear, with a bit of accessorising to show how professional you are, because obviously as a woman your resume won't do that at all. But also don't look too professional, make sure you show some skin.

Huh.

In with Karen, post it. If nothing else, it would be food for thought.

Ohhh, dresscode for male/female talk. *The female side of the equation is idiotically complicated, the guy side is "wear a tie". *Yes. *Totally logical and fair, right there.*facepalm at gender standards*

I will never know why women can't just wear a suit and tie without being verbally lambasted and insulted.

I honestly have never seen a working woman outside of a suit and tie. So it's coming along.

I'll schedule a mock interview at the career center, and show up in absolutely nothing except a tie tied with a Windsor knot.

They might not mention it, but never forget the power of a good pair o shoes. Plus, a hat ties any outfit together. Even if it's just a tie and shoes.

Kender: Are you feminist for equality? Because some of the things you write, just feel... Anti-male feminism. Not feminist extremist, but still seems blatantly anti male.

I can vouch for Kender not being such a feminist, though in the short term that pattern might be what seems to emerge.

But turning around and saying 'It's ok for women to do this.' seems... Counter intuitive.

Ah, okay. That's actually separate from, but seemingly related to, feminism by language and words.

Some things inherently require what is, by noncontextual objective measurements, easily seen as bad. Usually exclusive and dismissive. For example, women being forced to dress pretty, in gendered clothes, and to wear make-up an such is a problem. Transwomen Tend to find these desirable, for the same reason – because they are gendered. So it might look like these are at odds (feminism says you should remove the necessity of gendered clothing, feeling pretty says you should doll up to feel pretty) but really they are two separate things entirely.

Similarly, fetishistic practices. As a whole, practices that involve control, belittling, an forcing behaviors on others are Bad. But what two consenting adults do begin closed doors is cool. Similarly, while excluding people in general is bad, having standards for any one event is okay, no matter how silly that may seem. I can't remember how I felt last time, but this came up prior and we went through it all. What doesn't come through is that Guy's Night Out is allowed, if you want it, except most GNOs end up wanting to include a gaggle of women, so... Yeah.

Equality is one of those great unattainables, like justice and intelligence. Also like the average person. Anyway, hi. Felt obliged to at least acknowledge this place.

Hi! Nice to meet you!

Yeah, normal people are a statistical approximation and don't really exist.

I keep pronouncing LGBT in my head as Lugerbutt. Which sounds inherently hazardous. XD

Folks around here like lager beta, but lugerbutt is funnier, I feel.

[TaiLiu]

Not yet. I'm looking to go out and buy some with my tax return.

Ah.

Also: I got the job! Home nightly, off weekends, kick ass paycheck! Looks like I'll be starting next week!

It doesn't pay as much as your last job did, but it does have some excellent benefits, it seems.

[Raineh Daze]

Should always ban individuals, never groups. Seems silly to do it the other way around. Prejudices of any sort are never good. If you take issue with an entire group because of an individual or stereotype, then you're the one with the problem, not them.

... unless it's things like the Japanese rail system, where there's an endemic problem and that sort of thing is pretty much the only way to achieve anything. Which is just depressing.

[TaiLiu]

... unless it's things like the Japanese rail system, where there's an endemic problem and that sort of thing is pretty much the only way to achieve anything. Which is just depressing.

Go on...

[Raineh Daze]

At peak times, when people are crowded in, anonymous molestation is disturbingly common. So much there are signs warning against it. So they (the rail companies) started instituting female-only cars at those same times as a preventative measure. Things shouldn't have to come to that.

Wouldn't be surprised if I've remembered wrong or the source was wrong, though. 'Specially not right now. XD

[Astrella]

I haven't come across any feminist that supports safe spaces for women being opposed to safe spaces for men though.

[Karen Lynn]

It doesn't pay as much as your last job did, but it does have some excellent benefits, it seems.

Nah, about $200/week less, on average. Although the benefits package(which I've not looked over yet, will do tomorrow when I go in to 'talk about the position') seems like a better deal, based on their recruitment site. Paid life insurance for one, and if I can get better rates on health insurance that just so happens to cover therap(y/ists) than my old company, then I can probably make out better. Besides, being able to buy groceries like a normal person, be home every night with weekends off, and pack my own home made lunches and dinners(which would also save me money).
--
Hmmm... Should I get a corset as well? *ponders*
--
Ah. Maybe I'm just taking things out of context of personality, then. Kender has been a fair person that I've seen prior. Maybe some words just triggered me in a negative way? I don't know... >.<

Although, now I'm curious: Do feminists find transwomen offensive? I mean, transwomen find it easiest to be viewed as feminine by feeding into stereotypes/gender roles...

[SiuiS]

Should always ban individuals, never groups. Seems silly to do it the other way around. Prejudices of any sort are never good. If you take issue with an entire group because of an individual or stereotype, then you're the one with the problem, not them.

But you're interpreting and then arguing that interpretation. "women only" means "no men" which is bad, but it also doesn't include all women, and means "just our in-group" which is fine. While they say "just the ladie tonight" the only people who hear that are the men who are in the in-group; they are separating. It's as much the same as "just the techs" or something. I've seen outside women come up and get rebuffed despite it being girls' night. the phrase girls night out is as much a social cue as anything. It's a hint to the specific cluster.

Ugh. Words in my head fall inline like soldiers but dance out of reach when I type. Im gonna get some sleep and see if I can be coherent afterwards. >_<

Edit:

Although, now I'm curious: Do feminists find transwomen offensive? I mean, transwomen find it easiest to be viewed as feminine by feeding into stereotypes/gender roles...

Some do. Usually it's said to be because they are stealing a woman's role from "real" women, but the rest just go "wait, what? Isn't our 'role' what we are trying to get rid of?" and point out that by any definition of "real woman" you will inevitably exclude ciswomen as well as transwomen.

[noparlpf]

Although, now I'm curious: Do feminists find transwomen offensive? I mean, transwomen find it easiest to be viewed as feminine by feeding into stereotypes/gender roles...

Proper ones don't. I think I may have seen that perspective before, though.

[Raineh Daze]

If you use 'no men' to mean 'our group', then your problem is a terrible grasp of the English language. If you want it to just be a social gathering thing, then say so, don't use half-assed phrasings that end up excluding someone who had no reason to expect it.

[Astrella]

Some do, but most of them that do have problematic views on other points as well. And cis women don't get as much crap if they conform to society's ideals as well, I mean, there's the added thing about being seen as your gender there as well for trans women, but limits regarding gender expression and such tend to be one of feminism's focal points.

[Raineh Daze]

Some do, but most of them that do have problematic views on other points as well. And cis women don't get as much crap if they conform to society's ideals as well, I mean, there's the added thing about being seen as your gender there as well for trans women, but limits regarding gender expression and such tend to be one of feminism's focal points.

And this entire post confuses me because I'm not really sure how it's a reply to what I said. Seems a bit much for 'describe a group as appropriate, don't give a false impression'.

[Kittenwolf]

My brother is a high widows peak, and he keeps his hair shoulder long. It looks alright on him, but he isn't trying to look feminine, he just enjoys the feeling of brushing his hair. Oh, and head banging...and it is a lot more fun with long hair.

I'm in much the same boat. High forehead, high widow's peak, not a great combination.
Tell him to get a fringe, they can be pushed to either side to not look feminine when required and cover up things exceptionally well :)

So today at the school's career center I found a little postcard-sized thing with clothing tips for job interviews.
One side is for guys, and literally only shows how to tie a Windsor knot and why it's the best, most confident-looking knot for a tie. That and a picture of a dude with a tie tied around his head, but I don't think that's related.
On the side for girls, there is a lengthy list of what to wear and what not to wear, with a bit of accessorising to show how professional you are, because obviously as a woman your resume won't do that at all. But also don't look too professional, make sure you show some skin.

Erg. That's horrendous ><

I've never liked any of those 'job interview advice' things. For guys it always seems to be "No jewelry other than a watch, short hair only, suit and jacket, blah blah blah".

Interview advice: way to crush everyone's self expression into a neat, sexist, conservative shaped cube.

So at work today, some colleagues saw a picture of me with my hair down... and that's it. Reaction:
Colleague 1: "Oh that's a nice picture"
Colleague 2: "You look very girly with your hair down"
Colleague 1: "Is that you? I assumed it was your (female) ex"...

...What...

That's kind of awesome :D
Did you make any comments to them about looking 'girly' ?
Also, gives you the perfect inroads to wear your hair down next day at work! "So Colleague 2, think I look girly in person?"

To do what? Are you referring to the women's spaces are allowed thing? Or what? I really don't think I'm saying unreasonable things? And I don't know how to answer "Are you feminist for equality?". What's the other option?

I actually had a discussion on what makes a feminist and different extremes and such with a friend over the long weekend (also, there's a fantastic video on straw feminism at Feminist Frequency)

It's really unfortunate that the media does its best to play up anyone identifying as Feminist as a "Man hater" going to absurd illogical extremes, because it creates a culture where 'Feminist' is seen as a very tarred and blackened term (like 'Privilege') that makes many people leery of associating with it. "Man haters" do exist, but they're in the vast minority.

I personally identify as Feminist, but for a long time I refused to go anywhere near that term because it seemed to imply (for one thing) being part of a specific group/organisation (I preferred to think of myself as an 'equalist'), and also because I've unfortunately met a couple of those "Man hating feminists" and had them vehemently defended by girls I'm close friends with.

For example, one of them stated that "No man can ever be anything except an oppressor, it doesn't matter if you call yourself a feminist ally, your existence means you are oppressive to women and that can't be changed by anything you do", which completely threw me.
Another one went on at length about how someone who is put down for being gay/bullied/different race/queer cannot possibly ever understand what it's like to be put down for being female and shouldn't even try to think there are any parallels, and my brain went straight to "But.. shouldn't people being oppressed/put down band together because they're being put down, rather than be segregated by the *reason* for being put down?"

Yeah, I didn't make any friends that day, believe me ><

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Hmmm... Should I get a corset as well? *ponders*
--

Hell yes! Corsets are awesome :D
No I'm not biased towards them at all....

[Karen Lynn]

*points higher* Methinks it is in response to mine...

[Lissou]

I haven't come across any feminist that supports safe spaces for women being opposed to safe spaces for men though.

It's rarely an outright opposition to safe space for men. More of a "not here, because here is a safe space for women" and not creating many safe spaces for men because "there are more women who need a safe space so we should focus on that, but hey, someone else should totally create a safe space for men" which is nice and all but kind of telling abused men that because they're the minority, they can f* off.
Bottom line is, many places specialise in abused women because of the safe space issue, and because most of these women were abused by men. I have yet to find a place specialising in abused men because of a mix of "well we're already taking care of women here, which is a bigger problem, let others take care of men" and "it's sexist, most victims are women, why do you care only about the men? Obviously you hate women".

Some places are inclusive of men, meaning that they welcome them, but sometimes they're still treated a bit differently, in a "don't get near the women, you might trigger them" even though we're talking about another victim there. Not to mention if they were abused by a woman, being surrounded by women doesn't make for a very safe space for them and being accused of being the one who makes the space not safe can't be a nice feeling.

So yeah, I've never seen people saying men didn't deserve a safe place or to be treated with respect, heard and taken care of when they need it, but I've heard a lot of "seriously, we have more important things to think about, like women being abused".

[Raineh Daze]

*points higher* Methinks it is in response to mine...

Observational skills: not my forte.

[Coidzor]

Although, now I'm curious: Do feminists find transwomen offensive? I mean, transwomen find it easiest to be viewed as feminine by feeding into stereotypes/gender roles...

Some do, it's complicated.

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Some of it's about confirming negative stereotypes and gender roles (especially the ones about acting vapid/stupid which are a pet peeve of most rational human beings that are aware of them and fairly widely considered problematic where it actually is a thing rather than a bogeyman) and some of it's about safe spaces and invasion and viewing them as either outsiders and thus neither male nor female or outsiders and just men that are attempting to steal their space and infiltrate it.

[Astrella]

*snip*

Hm hm, valid points, and it's a difficult discussion to have. I think one of the major points on men's end should definitely be to have more places available (that only gets problematic when you want to do it at the expense of other people's places. E.g. MRA's complaining about the existence of a woman's centre at a university and wanting it gone rather then establishing places for men aside.) and to remove the stigma about being a victim and seeking help as well.