OOTS #1302 - The Discussion Thread

[KorvinStarmast]

How dare you besmirch Spinal Tap?

The smirched themselves nicely, and made a small bundle along the way.

Now you're getting into subgenres. And if we do that then NWOBHM is the best, and they have quite legible album covers.

Dare I ask just what NWOBHM stands for? The 80's and 90's metal bands don't figure much at all in my record collection. (As but one example, the only Metallica CD I have is a single, Whiskey in the Jar).

[Peelee]

The smirched themselves nicely, and made a small bundle along the way.
Dare I ask just what NWOBHM stands for? The 80's and 90's metal bands don't figure much at all in my record collection. (As but one example, the only Metallica CD I have is a single, Whiskey in the Jar).

New Wave of British Heavy Metal - for example, Iron Maiden, Rainbow, and UFO. The wave that came after the initial wave of Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, etc. They largely rose to prominence in the 70s to 80s.

ETA: For anyone who isn't aware, my mod name is a direct reference to Rainbow.

[KorvinStarmast]

New Wave of British Heavy Metal - for example, Iron Maiden, Rainbow, and UFO. The wave that came after the initial wave of Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, etc. They largely rose to prominence in the 70s to 80s.

ETA: For anyone who isn't aware, my mod name is a direct reference to Rainbow.

Is Def Leppard in that group?

[Peelee]

Is Def Leppard in that group?

They are! I just named my favorites (except Judas Priest, since they and Maiden pretty much go hand in hand. If you love one, you'll obviously love the other).

[brian 333]

Is Def Leppard in that group?

Def Leppard was a pretty good party band, but Metal? They didn't even have a dirge!

[Mordar]

Is Def Leppard in that group?

They are! I just named my favorites (except Judas Priest, since they and Maiden pretty much go hand in hand. If you love one, you'll obviously love the other).

Def Leppard was a pretty good party band, but Metal? They didn't even have a dirge!

Hrm, not expert in the general sense - just the "lived through it and bought a lot of copies of Circus" sense...

But I would fall in the camp of Def Leppard (who I will be seeing this year with Journey) was a rock band that got crossed into Hair Metal*. So if Hair Metal counts as Metal, then I agree with Peelee. If it doesn't, I have to go with brian.

- M**

* - I think they got a lot of Hair Metal emulators, so it wasn't that Leppard was Hair...it is that their music inspired bands that were Hair.

** - Hooray for new non sequitur!

[KorvinStarmast]

Judas Priest was around before NWOBHM, they got their start in 1969, but I catch the drift.
They did Diamonds and Rust better than Joan Baez did, and hers was a fine song.

[Peelee]

Judas Priest was around before NWOBHM, they got their start in 1969, but I catch the drift.
They did Diamonds and Rust better than Joan Baez did, and hers was a fine song.

Yeah, most people don't consider them NWOBHM, but I do, because they match the sound and energy much better than they do the original heavy metal bands. Same for Ozzy's solo career and Rainbow, both of which were started by the metal OGs. And IMO Black Sabbath moved more towards NWOBHM sound with Dio than with Ozzy. Again, all just my own opinions. And regardless, all the bands with the various members all rocked to hell and back.

Priest and Baez both do Diamonds and Rust perfectly. Hers is more personal, Priest's is more relatable for the listener by necessity with their editing out half the lyrics. Which, ya know, D&R. It's understandable. That song is the most beautiful and elegant "go **** yourself" I've ever heard. Love that song.

Have you seen their acoustic version live in Japan? It's very haunting.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Hrm, not expert in the general sense - just the "lived through it and bought a lot of copies of Circus" sense...

But I would fall in the camp of Def Leppard (who I will be seeing this year with Journey) was a rock band that got crossed into Hair Metal*. So if Hair Metal counts as Metal, then I agree with Peelee. If it doesn't, I have to go with brian.

- M**

* - I think they got a lot of Hair Metal emulators, so it wasn't that Leppard was Hair...it is that their music inspired bands that were Hair.

** - Hooray for new non sequitur!

IIRC, Def Leppard consider themselves rock rather than metal.

Then again, Lemmy said Motörhead played "dirty ******* rock 'n' roll", so who knows

[Vikenlugaid]

Def Leppard are heavy metal too, more "soft and melodic" but heavy metal. Like Guns n' roses, Scorpions, Bon Jovi, Aerosmith...

[Peelee]

IIRC, Def Leppard consider themselves rock rather than metal.

And that's totally fair! I do too. The only reason I labeled them metal above was because I googled if they were generally considered NWOBHM. But yeah, with music, i don't see much issue with disagreeing with consensus. Hell, i already said o consider Priest and Ozzy (solo) as NWOBHM because they're musically more similar to that than to the Sabbath or Budgie or the like.

[Mordar]

Def Leppard are heavy metal too, more "soft and melodic" but heavy metal. Like Guns n' roses, Scorpions, Bon Jovi, Aerosmith...

Wait wait wait...head canon says 1 of those 4 *might* qualify, with the others being definitely straight rock (though BJ had the hair they didn't, IMO, play Hair Metal).

Board consensus?

Now I am compelled to wonder what 80s band/artist each of the Order would prefer.

Beyond Elan (despite his bardness) clearly being into NKOTB...later maybe he would grow into Billy Joel, Styx, etc.

Roy: Survivor, and anything else on sports movie soundtracks
Haley: Pat Benatar, at least after 610
Durkon: Toughest one for me, but would probably lean Aerosmith or something in the "traditional rock category that his mom would like"
Belkar: Beastie Boys, but only two songs on repeat
Vaarsuvius: Tougher...BOC is 70s, Steve Miller also though the key song is 1982...so probably some crappy synthpop no one else liked because that would be in character. Though after Familicide etc probably would devolve to Smiths/Morrisey/Cure

- M

[brian 333]

Wait wait wait...head canon says 1 of those 4 *might* qualify, with the others being definitely straight rock (though BJ had the hair they didn't, IMO, play Hair Metal).

Board consensus?

Now I am compelled to wonder what 80s band/artist each of the Order would prefer.

Beyond Elan (despite his bardness) clearly being into NKOTB...later maybe he would grow into Billy Joel, Styx, etc.

Roy: Survivor, and anything else on sports movie soundtracks
Haley: Pat Benatar, at least after 610
Durkon: Toughest one for me, but would probably lean Aerosmith or something in the "traditional rock category that his mom would like"
Belkar: Beastie Boys, but only two songs on repeat
Vaarsuvius: Tougher...BOC is 70s, Steve Miller also though the key song is 1982...so probably some crappy synthpop no one else liked because that would be in character. Though after Familicide etc probably would devolve to Smiths/Morrisey/Cure

- M

Roy: Rush, Nazareth

Haley: Heart, obviously and Joan Jett

Durkon: Led Zeppelin, Yngwie Malmsteen, (Rising Force and after.)

Elan: Charlie Daniels Band, Black Oak Arkansas, Lynyrd Skynyrd

Belkar: Quiet Riot

Vaarsivius: Kansas, America, with James Taylor in small doses

[Mordar]

Roy: Rush, Nazareth

Haley: Heart, obviously and Joan Jett

Durkon: Led Zeppelin, Yngwie Malmsteen, (Rising Force and after.)

Elan: Charlie Daniels Band, Black Oak Arkansas, Lynyrd Skynyrd

Belkar: Quiet Riot

Vaarsivius: Kansas, America, with James Taylor in small doses

I would like to ask you to explain your choices...but also, most of these are 70s (underlined).

I can't get behind Haley going Joan Jett, but 80s Heart is a fit. 70s Heart is a little too...something...for her IMO.

I picked Beastie Boys for Belkar for maximum annoyance, but now trying to picture Belkar rocking Metal Health...

I'm most interested in hearing the connection between V and folk rock.

- M

[Ruck]

Haley we know had a goth phase, so she probably would listen to Bauhaus and Echo and the Bunnymen, things like that. But I can also see her having a taste for women rockers, ranging from the Bangles to the Go-Gos to Joan Jett, for example. And, of course, the two overlap in Siouxsie and the Banshees.

I can buy Vaarsuvius as liking synthpop and The Smiths, but I also imagine Kate Bush is basically music royalty in Elven lands, and V is no exception in this regard.

Belkar I imagine listens to stuff like Black Flag. I can see Beastie Boys fitting with his personality. I don't see him as much listening to hair metal unless it has a genuinely nasty edge to it, like Guns N' Roses.

Elan, naturally, likes the king and queen of 80s pop, Michael Jackson and Madonna. Probably also U2 for how theatrical and bombastic they can be. Despite his relative intellectual shallowness, I could see him finding New Wave acts and in particular their theatrical performances really cool. (He probably got a huge kick out of Stop Making Sense.) He probably watches all the MTV video countdowns both to see what's popular and which music videos are pushing the boundaries of the format.

Roy I can see liking that sports-montage inspiration rock, or stuff he picked up from his mother (I dunno... Heart?) but I also think he'd get into Black music with an intellectual bent, like Public Enemy. He'd probably be a huge fan of Living Colour.

Durkon escapes me a little. I can kinda see him doing the Americana-ish rock of Springsteen, Seger, and Mellencamp, or maybe just being into ambient or beat-driven stuff. Or he's one of those quiet guys who's secretly a huge metalhead.

[Peelee]

How y'all aren't immediate pegging Slayer for Belkar is beyond me.

ETA: Also, Satriani for V. Technical perfection seems to suit V quite well, plus that they are instrumentals is a nice play off V's loquaciousness

[Mordar]

Belkar I imagine listens to stuff like Black Flag. I can see Beastie Boys fitting with his personality. I don't see him as much listening to hair metal unless it has a genuinely nasty edge to it, like Guns N' Roses.

Elan, naturally, likes the king and queen of 80s pop, Michael Jackson and Madonna. Probably also U2 for how theatrical and bombastic they can be. Despite his relative intellectual shallowness, I could see him finding New Wave acts and in particular their theatrical performances really cool. (He probably got a huge kick out of Stop Making Sense.) He probably watches all the MTV video countdowns both to see what's popular and which music videos are pushing the boundaries of the format.

Durkon escapes me a little. I can kinda see him doing the Americana-ish rock of Springsteen, Seger, and Mellencamp, or maybe just being into ambient or beat-driven stuff. Or he's one of those quiet guys who's secretly a huge metalhead.

How y'all aren't immediate pegging Slayer for Belkar is beyond me.

Yeah, I can track most of that...

Belkar could be a thrasher for sure. But I bet he secretly likes stuff like Sade while only playing abrasive annoying music when others are around.

Definitely should have had MJ and Madonna on the list for Elan, but not feeling U2 (but maybe because I see him as KNOTB all day, and I can't put that with U2).

Durkon remains the toughest for me though. Springsteen is too protest-laden, but JCM plays.

I know I clipped the quote, but I think PE fits for Redcloak more than Roy.

- M

[brian 333]

I would like to ask you to explain your choices...but also, most of these are 70s (underlined).

I can't get behind Haley going Joan Jett, but 80s Heart is a fit. 70s Heart is a little too...something...for her IMO.

I picked Beastie Boys for Belkar for maximum annoyance, but now trying to picture Belkar rocking Metal Health...

I'm most interested in hearing the connection between V and folk rock.

- M

Roy: Nazareth was still getting air time in the 80s and Roy was never a follow-the-herd kind of guy. But sub Foghat if you prefer.

Durkon: Zeppelin is in the Thor Hymn list. They open and close services with Hammer of the Gods.

Elan: Modern Country is derived from 70s Dixie Rock, and you saw how well Elan channeled Lee Greenwood in Girard's Pyramid. Besides, Elan is exactly the kind of guy who would be playing Freebird for all the girls in the quad in high school.

Vaarsuvius: actually owns a pair of hipster glasses.

[Mordar]

Durkon: Zeppelin is in the Thor Hymn list. They open and close services with Hammer of the Gods.

Well that is obviously correct and I was stunned it took until the third Thor movie to get Immigrant Song into the mix, regardless of the licensing cost.

FTR, I wasn't impugning any choices, just that I had originally (and artificially) set the parameters for 80s music. As such, Foghat is even more of a non-80s than Nazareth. Strangely I also see Journey as a Roy choice, and then an Elan choice...for different reasons. I also feel they are 80s despite major success in the 70s.

- M

[Peelee]

Well that is obviously correct and I was stunned it took until the third Thor movie to get Immigrant Song into the mix, regardless of the licensing cost.

It ain't the cost. Led Zeppelin is famously picky about letting their songs get licensed at all.

[Mordar]

It ain't the cost. Led Zeppelin is famously picky about letting their songs get licensed at all.

Thusly Ramble On was not include in Return of the King.

I recall an article about how that was the case, but then by the 90s it was fairly common (of course, Fast Times was much earlier, but an exception - I wonder why).

Now compelled to look at other instances...wow, Immigrant Song was in Kurt Russel's Soldier?!? Ramble On a few times, Communication Breakdown in Small Soldiers (?), Good Times, Bad Times shows up a few times.

Wonder what the limitation is for "reasonable use" - like Wayne's World.

- M

[Quizatzhaderac]

NWOBHM

A propos of nothing, I've decided I utterly hate that term (the music itself is fine).

First of all, it's a acronym of such length and laziness that it's more appropriate to a department of defense accounting paradigm then a from of music.

Secondly it's the next to oldest micro-genre, so the word "new" doesn't really apply outside the context of "traditional heavy metal" or a time traveler in the early 70's.

As a stop gap to the excessive nomenclature prevalent in metal, I'm going to recommend each sub genre be assigned an element on from the periodic table. "New wave of traditional heavy metal" (including NWOBHM) is now "Thorium".

As for non-metal genres, under this system, grunge is now "Lithium" and techno-opera is now "Boron".

[arimareiji]

A propos of nothing, I've decided I utterly hate that term (the music itself is fine).

First of all, it's a acronym of such length and laziness that it's more appropriate to a department of defense accounting paradigm then a from of music.

Secondly it's the next to oldest micro-genre, so the word "new" doesn't really apply outside the context of "traditional heavy metal" or a time traveler in the early 70's.

As a stop gap to the excessive nomenclature prevalent in metal, I'm going to recommend each sub genre be assigned an element on from the periodic table. "New wave of traditional heavy metal" (including NWOBHM) is now "Thorium".

As for non-metal genres, under this system, grunge is now "Lithium" and techno-opera is now "Boron".

I suppose a lot of seiyuu would fall under Helium? And expanding the notion out to molecules, I'd recommend Methane for cookie-cutter corporate pop.

[brian 333]

Then Folk would have to be Oxygen because it bonds with everything.

One-girl-wonders must be Nitrogen, or one of the noble gasses. Xenon, perhaps?

[Riftwolf]

Then Folk would have to be Oxygen because it bonds with everything.

One-girl-wonders must be Nitrogen, or one of the noble gasses. Xenon, perhaps?

It might ruffle some feathers, but I think Radiohead is Boron.

Oh, and Stadium Rock? Mercury, obviously.

[Quizatzhaderac]

It might ruffle some feathers, but I think Radiohead is Boron.

What's your logic there?

Mine is that the fifth element famously has techno-opera in it.

[Rollin]

Definitely should have had MJ and Madonna on the list for Elan, but not feeling U2 (but maybe because I see him as KNOTB all day, and I can't put that with U2).

Simple Minds, though?

[Ruck]

How y'all aren't immediate pegging Slayer for Belkar is beyond me.

ETA: Also, Satriani for V. Technical perfection seems to suit V quite well, plus that they are instrumentals is a nice play off V's loquaciousness

Slayer is nice for Belkar, yeah. Anything sufficiently angry.

But also:

Belkar could be a thrasher for sure. But I bet he secretly likes stuff like Sade while only playing abrasive annoying music when others are around.

I could see that, too.

Definitely should have had MJ and Madonna on the list for Elan, but not feeling U2 (but maybe because I see him as KNOTB all day, and I can't put that with U2).

I don't see him as into New Kids on the Block, necessarily. (Although with their breakout album coming in 1988, I don't see them as particularly 80s, either.) But U2 was arguably the biggest rock band in the world for a point in the 80s, and Elan strikes me as someone who goes big.

Strangely I also see Journey as a Roy choice, and then an Elan choice...for different reasons. I also feel they are 80s despite major success in the 70s.

I do see Journey more for Elan.

He probably has a pretty wide range of tastes, befitting a bard. But also that taste is heavily influenced by top-40s and the like.

Durkon: Zeppelin is in the Thor Hymn list. They open and close services with Hammer of the Gods.

Yeah, Led Zeppelin is definitely a staple of dwarven culture, but they're also decidedly not 80s.

[Riftwolf]

What's your logic there?

Mine is that the fifth element famously has techno-opera in it.

Twas a pun, or play on words.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Twas a pun, or play on words.

Yeah, I got that, but what pun, were you just saying that radio head was boring, or was there some obscure thing I was missing?