Barbarian ASIs are for feats

[Schwann145]

Fighters get Indomitable and the rest of those either aren't on the frontlines at all or have ways to mitigate the issue if they are. Barbarians get nothing, other than Zealot and Berserker.

Very many Artificers, Bards, and Rogues are indeed on the front lines.

[diplomancer]

Very many Artificers, Bards, and Rogues are indeed on the front lines.

Is everyone here forgetting Artificers get Flash of Genius? It's not as good as a Paladin's Aura, but at least it comes a lot earlier than a Monk's Diamond Soul.

[Azara5]

Is everyone here forgetting Artificers get Flash of Genius? It's not as good as a Paladin's Aura, but at least it comes a lot earlier than a Monk's Diamond Soul.

Rogues also get Slippery Mind, and Bards can boost their wisdom saves with Jack of All Trades

[diplomancer]

Rogues also get Slippery Mind, and Bards can boost their wisdom saves with Jack of All Trades

Yes for Rogues (though quite late), no for Bards. Jack of All Trades is for Ability Checks, not Saving Throws. Bards are really bad saving throws-wise; and the worst of it: they can boost everyone else's saving throws, just not their own! They do have Countercharm, but that's a pretty niche ability.

[strangebloke]

Very many Artificers, Bards, and Rogues are indeed on the front lines.

Even if it were true that these classes had no way of protecting their saves (which it isn't) artificers and bards and rogues are not combat specialists. It's fine for them to have weaknesses in combat because they will be contributing a lot elsewhere in the game.

If a barbarian fails a save and does nothing in combat, they do nothing at all for the whole session.

And again, all three of these classes do have ways of protecting their saves, and are also more flexible and reliable than the barbarian in combat.

[Witty Username]

Wait, aren't barbarians supposed to be illiterate!?

Uncool, That is sooo last edition

[Frogreaver]

Even if it were true that these classes had no way of protecting their saves (which it isn't) artificers and bards and rogues are not combat specialists. It's fine for them to have weaknesses in combat because they will be contributing a lot elsewhere in the game.

If a barbarian fails a save and does nothing in combat, they do nothing at all for the whole session.

And again, all three of these classes do have ways of protecting their saves, and are also more flexible and reliable than the barbarian in combat.

Not from you but in general - the biggest fallacy I see is equating the desire for the magnitude of a weakness to be less with the desire for there to be no weakness at all.

[Psyren]

Not from you but in general - the biggest fallacy I see is equating the desire for the magnitude of a weakness to be less with the desire for there to be no weakness at all.

Yeah - no one thinks Fighters are the king of Wis saves just because they get Indomitable, nor Rogues for getting Slippery Mind. It's just nice to have something.

[strangebloke]

Barbarians, by virtue of being relegated to the role of melee combat specialist, are also highly vulnerable to fear specifically, since any random thing that inflicts the frightened condition will shut down their ability to approach and give them disadvantage. A bard who gets hit by frightened just casts a spell and barely notices. So the comparison doesn't work regardless. It's both a more severe failing for them than it is for bards and (to an extent) rogues, and they don't have other areas in which they can compensate.

TL;DR take resilient:wis on your barb. It feels bad otherwise.

[Jak]

So, just a thought, would you consider putting a higher score in Wis rather than Dex? Like, 14, 10?
What conditions would you have?
What about in a featless game?

[Schwann145]

And again, all three of these classes do have ways of protecting their saves, and are also more flexible and reliable than the barbarian in combat.

How is a Rogue more flexible and reliable than the Barbarian in combat? Let's apply your initial caveat equally: the Rogue won't be reaching levels high enough to ever see their Slippery Mind feature (much the same as we're assuming the Barb will only have 3, maybe 4, ASI/Feats to take advantage of).
They're a low-Wis class with no class features (that they'll reach) to help them with Wis saves. They're just as likely to fail all the charms and fears that the Barbarian is likely to fail. And, as is hammered home in just about every DPR thread they end up involved in, they're definitely a combat class in 5e (personally I'd tend to agree that they're not - but countless times have I been insisted to that their utility doesn't match up to *real* utility abilities and what they're really all about is landing that SA as much as possible).

If a barbarian fails a save and does nothing in combat, they do nothing at all for the whole session.

Fighters have the same issue. From levels 1-8, they get zero help. At level 9 they get a single reroll per day. While that's not nothing, isn't the suggested number of engagements something like 6 per day? Two per short rest, with 2-3 short rests per adventuring day? And this reroll is for any save you fail, which is great! Do you use it on the failed Fear, or save it for the failed Con? Both are bad; one is definitely worse.
I'm not suggesting that you're overstating it's value... but in the discussion so far, it's value has definitely been overstated.

And, to take it all back to a point made in an earlier comment... The Barb who takes GWM or PAM instead of increasing Str or Con has probably made the right decision. We're agreed on that point, for sure.
That Barb isn't any better at saves though.

[stoutstien]

How is a Rogue more flexible and reliable than the Barbarian in combat? Let's apply your initial caveat equally: the Rogue won't be reaching levels high enough to ever see their Slippery Mind feature (much the same as we're assuming the Barb will only have 3, maybe 4, ASI/Feats to take advantage of).
They're a low-Wis class with no class features (that they'll reach) to help them with Wis saves. They're just as likely to fail all the charms and fears that the Barbarian is likely to fail. And, as is hammered home in just about every DPR thread they end up involved in, they're definitely a combat class in 5e (personally I'd tend to agree that they're not - but countless times have I been insisted to that their utility doesn't match up to *real* utility abilities and what they're really all about is landing that SA as much as possible).


Fighters have the same issue. From levels 1-8, they get zero help. At level 9 they get a single reroll per day. While that's not nothing, isn't the suggested number of engagements something like 6 per day? Two per short rest, with 2-3 short rests per adventuring day? And this reroll is for any save you fail, which is great! Do you use it on the failed Fear, or save it for the failed Con? Both are bad; one is definitely worse.
I'm not suggesting that you're overstating it's value... but in the discussion so far, it's value has definitely been overstated.

And, to take it all back to a point made in an earlier comment... The Barb who takes GWM or PAM instead of increasing Str or Con has probably made the right decision. We're agreed on that point, for sure.
That Barb isn't any better at saves though.

Both the fighter and rogue have extra ASIs to throw around and the rouge have the benefit of mobility/action economy to remove themselves as a target when applicable. Being hidden is a pretty big boon for making saves seeing how many options rely on sight.

[strangebloke]

How is a Rogue more flexible and reliable than the Barbarian in combat? Let's apply your initial caveat equally: the Rogue won't be reaching levels high enough to ever see their Slippery Mind feature (much the same as we're assuming the Barb will only have 3, maybe 4, ASI/Feats to take advantage of).
They're a low-Wis class with no class features (that they'll reach) to help them with Wis saves. They're just as likely to fail all the charms and fears that the Barbarian is likely to fail. And, as is hammered home in just about every DPR thread they end up involved in, they're definitely a combat class in 5e (personally I'd tend to agree that they're not - but countless times have I been insisted to that their utility doesn't match up to *real* utility abilities and what they're really all about is landing that SA as much as possible).

Rogues can apply SA to ranged or melee attacks and this combined with cunning action mean that they're rarely unable to contribute. Barbarians are slower and really don't function well at range. They also don't function well if they don't have rage available.

In combat Barbarians have higher peaks but massively lower valleys. It's fine that they have weaknesses like this but I would argue they have too many.

Fighters have the same issue. From levels 1-8, they get zero help. At level 9 they get a single reroll per day. While that's not nothing, isn't the suggested number of engagements something like 6 per day? Two per short rest, with 2-3 short rests per adventuring day? And this reroll is for any save you fail, which is great! Do you use it on the failed Fear, or save it for the failed Con? Both are bad; one is definitely worse.
I'm not suggesting that you're overstating it's value... but in the discussion so far, it's value has definitely been overstated.

And, to take it all back to a point made in an earlier comment... The Barb who takes GWM or PAM instead of increasing Str or Con has probably made the right decision. We're agreed on that point, for sure.
That Barb isn't any better at saves though.

I bring up fighters and rogues as a very very low bar that barbarian fails to clear

[Psyren]

How is a Rogue more flexible and reliable than the Barbarian in combat? Let's apply your initial caveat equally: the Rogue won't be reaching levels high enough to ever see their Slippery Mind feature (much the same as we're assuming the Barb will only have 3, maybe 4, ASI/Feats to take advantage of).
They're a low-Wis class with no class features (that they'll reach) to help them with Wis saves. They're just as likely to fail all the charms and fears that the Barbarian is likely to fail. And, as is hammered home in just about every DPR thread they end up involved in, they're definitely a combat class in 5e (personally I'd tend to agree that they're not - but countless times have I been insisted to that their utility doesn't match up to *real* utility abilities and what they're really all about is landing that SA as much as possible).

As others have said this is a completely unworkable comparison. Even before Slippery Mind, Rogues have the ability to avoid being targeted via Cunning Action Hide, or they can simply whip out a bow and outrange the enemy caster. And even after all that, they also get a bonus ASI they can put into Wis / Resilient if these kinds of saves are proving to be a problem. Barbarians get none of these options.

Fighters have the same issue. From levels 1-8, they get zero help.

A bonus ASI at 6 is not "zero help."

[Dr.Samurai]

I'm guessing others here have watched it already but I just watched Fire and Ice for the first time and holy crap talk about BARBARIAN lol. Darkwolf is a total badass!

Spoiler: Spoilers for a 39 year old movie...

Show

I couldn't help but think of the sub-thread here re barbarians vs magic. The evil sorcerer is able to puppeteer warriors with his magic, so those that challenge him, he can literally control their movements and defeats/kills them with ease.

Enter Darkwolf, who leaps in at the end off a pterodactyl and yells the sorcerer's name in challenge. Do you think he could control the barbarian with his magic? The magic that's killed countless other warriors before him?

Let's just say Necron's last words were "Die! Die! Why won't you die?!" before a battleaxe gets buried in his chest .

[Witty Username]

A fighter is probably spending their first couple ASIs on feats like PAM and GWM (or XBE and Sharpshooter) the extra one a 6th is nice but not likely going in the wisdom save direction.

[Psyren]

A fighter is probably spending their first couple ASIs on feats like PAM and GWM (or XBE and Sharpshooter) the extra one a 6th is nice but not likely going in the wisdom save direction.

But it could, and they'd be no worse off for doing so than a Barbarian would. Better in some cases even, since an errant frighten or charm wouldn't risk shutting off their only feature. And if you're in, say, a Fey or Demon campaign, it might not be a bad decision - especially if the rest of the party is lacking in mental defenses or buffs too.

[Arkhios]

It's got pictures, duh!

Uncool, That is sooo last edition

d'oh! /10char

[iajaffe]

GWM/PAM Barb
16 STR: [(1d10+3+2+10)*3+(1d4+3+2+10)]*0.64=50.6
18 STR: [(1d10+4+2+10)*3+(1d4+4+2+10)]*0.70=58.1

How are you getting the "*3"? Attack, extra attack, bonus action. I do not see how you are factoring in three attacks.

[Witty Username]

Time and time again this forum makes me believe that DMs don't use grapple/restraining attacks that target Strength saves/checks, lair actions that target Strength saves/checks or even just exploration obstacles that require a strength check. Or that players just never use the jump movement type in combat.

At least for Strength saves, they for some reason not used very often in official material, and the guidance for then is avoiding things like forced movement. This means they aren't often and need some work on the DMs part to actually make them scary.

also, a +5 to +9 strength save is pretty alright for most levels of play if your not going crazy.

I think the only thing I would say on the topic is if level 20 is on the table, str 24 looks really nice to have.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Barbarians get no feats to help with Necromancy.