OOTS #1302 - The Discussion Thread

[danielxcutter]

Especially since Calder hasn’t been able to get off a full attack. With the right build or even a bit of luck dragons are blenders entirely capable of killing even tanker PCs in a single round.

[BloodSquirrel]

The entire point I was making is THERE IS NO IMPAIRMENT other than dropping!

None. People have done studies. If you do not drop, you are not significantly impaired. That there is only one type of impairment, and it is dropping is not circular.

And impairment sort of dropping is not a thing that happens. There are two states, fighting and not fighting.

Dropping and death are separate, but that's true in D&D too. They're too connected in D&D (you don't drop till you are dying), but if you do not drop in real life then you are effectively unimpaired.

Yeah... I'm gonna have to see what "NO IMPAIRMENT" and "dropping" is being defined as here, because I've been injured before, and I can very much tell you that there have been times when I have been able to stand but could not run, let alone scramble over a shell crater with 50lbs of gear.

I have a feeling that what they actually found out is that when people were severely injured, they fell down (which on the modern battlefield is kind of a no-**** since you don't want to be standing unless you have to be anyway) and that an injured person with a gun is still dangerous because being 50% less likely to hit you is still 50% higher than is ideal. What I am certain they didn't do was immediately make injured soldiers who were in the middle of combat run an obstacle course, shoot at targets, and spar against uninjured soldiers while carefully recording their performance metrics and comparing them to a control group.

[bunsen_h]

What I am certain they didn't do was immediately make injured soldiers who were in the middle of combat run an obstacle course, shoot at targets, and spar against uninjured soldiers while carefully recording their performance metrics and comparing them to a control group.

"Okay, Bob, can you please hold still for a couple of minutes? Sorry about the bleeding... We just need you to run a few exercises. But first, we need to glue about a hundred little bright-green balls all over you for motion capture. Oops, we'll have to be careful of that arm. No, we still need to glue the balls all over it, the data analysis gets all wonky if the balls are missing... Allllmost done... Sorry, Bob, gotta do this right away or it doesn't count, wouldn't want to waste the opportunity, heh heh! Uh, could you please try to bleed away from me? Thanks. Now, you see Doug over there, with the little orange balls? You're gonna run an obstacle course against him, then a bit of target shooting, then you'll wrap things up with some sparring together. Ready?"

[Mordar]

Yeah... I'm gonna have to see what "NO IMPAIRMENT" and "dropping" is being defined as here, because I've been injured before, and I can very much tell you that there have been times when I have been able to stand but could not run, let alone scramble over a shell crater with 50lbs of gear.

I have a feeling that what they actually found out is that when people were severely injured, they fell down (which on the modern battlefield is kind of a no-**** since you don't want to be standing unless you have to be anyway) and that an injured person with a gun is still dangerous because being 50% less likely to hit you is still 50% higher than is ideal. What I am certain they didn't do was immediately make injured soldiers who were in the middle of combat run an obstacle course, shoot at targets, and spar against uninjured soldiers while carefully recording their performance metrics and comparing them to a control group.

This is what I was thinking, but from a sport-centric point of view. "No impairment", if it means "Can aim and pull a trigger" is very different than 'no impairment' meaning "can stand and exchange blows with someone after X rounds of (boxing/MMA/pick) as well as before they absorbed X rounds of hits", or "can move just as well in the 4th quarter after 28 carries as they can at the start of the game".

- M

[arimareiji]

"Okay, Bob, can you please hold still for a couple of minutes? Sorry about the bleeding... We just need you to run a few exercises. But first, we need to glue about a hundred little bright-green balls all over you for motion capture. Oops, we'll have to be careful of that arm. No, we still need to glue the balls all over it, the data analysis gets all wonky if the balls are missing... Allllmost done... Sorry, Bob, gotta do this right away or it doesn't count, wouldn't want to waste the opportunity, heh heh! Uh, could you please try to bleed away from me? Thanks. Now, you see Doug over there, with the little orange balls? You're gonna run an obstacle course against him, then a bit of target shooting, then you'll wrap things up with some sparring together. Ready?"

My brain is in such a weird space this morning. You don't want to know what it made of "glue the balls"... "balls are missing"... "little orange balls".

[No good @ names]

Catcher in the Rye was on my parents' bookshelf, and I recall having skimmed it when I was a teenager because I'd heard that it was racy, but found it uninteresting.

I tried to get into it because I liked The Laughing Man in Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex. Didn’t work.

[Vikenlugaid]

It's definitely a theme I can see the Giant (and any similarly-versed DM) resonating with. And agreed, both the Goblins and even the Gods are yet more examples of its power. It's teamwork all the way down.

In addition, Soon's contribution has already been even more effective than anyone is giving him credit for:

Spoiler

Show

His faith in Paladins established the institution that empowered and reinforced a good man like O-Chul, who is directly responsible for just about everything good the MitD has or will do in this story. Without him, the Order would have already lost, and we don't even know what MitD is going to do to save the day now in future.

Well, Ochul was that kind of man before he became a paladin. That's Ochul's merit, not Soon's.

[danielxcutter]

I still think it's going to be the case that even with his likely significant - and in the context of the Order of the Scribble specifically, damning - flaws Soon was ultimately a good person instead of just putting that on his character sheet. Even if he kinda sucked he died what, forty years after they disbanded? It's not out of the question that he learned from his mistakes by the time he kicked the bucket.

[hamishspence]

Even if he kinda sucked he died what, forty years after they disbanded?

More like 8 years between "Scribblers splitting up + Sapphire Guard founded" to Soon dying. 4 if Soon's handover to "Shojo I" (renamed Ronjo in the War & XPs Guide to Azure City at the end of the book) has been pushed back to match "Shojo II"'s changed age).


Soon stopped running the Sapphire Guard some 56 years ago (maybe 59 if you assume one of the "pre-Shojo's crowning" dates is 4 years out (since Shojo is 72 not 68).

66 years ago: Soon (age 48) discovers rifts, etc.

64 years ago: Soon (age 50) founds Sapphire Guard.

56 years ago: Soon (age 58) gives control of Sapphire Guard to Shojo I (age 45), who has ruled Azure City for 20 years. Shojo II (age 12) looks on. Soon then dies.

47 years ago: Shojo I (age 59) dies. Shojo II (age 21) ascends throne of Azure City.

Today: Shojo II (age 68) rules Azure City.

Shojo's "present day" age changed a little since then from 68 to 72 (War & XPs), which may affect the chronology slightly. If Shojo is still 12 when Soon dies, this pushes the date Soon died back a bit to 59 years ago (since the "66 years ago" figure for them discovering the existence of rifts, is in the main strip - Crayons of Time).

[danielxcutter]

Huh, Soon died that quickly? Weird.

[Quizatzhaderac]

For injuries acquired within the current encounter, I think Doug's argument holds a lot of water. You are either in shock (0 HP), or have a specific injury (broken arm, hamstrung), otherwise you haven't really had much time for fatigue or bleeding.

The boxing match, the medieval pitched battle, and other counter examples people provided were all on much longer timescales that a D&D encounter.

[Provengreil]

Huh, Soon died that quickly? Weird.

Maybe not weird if the causes weren't natural. I've theorized that the Ghost Martyrs had to be SG Paladins who specifically died in the throne room: Soon may have specifically sacrificed himself either as part of creating that encounter, or as a way to get in front of something else getting him first.

[Peelee]

Huh, Soon died that quickly? Weird.

Not really. 8 years is a much longer time before you're fifty than after you're fifty.

[BloodSquirrel]

For injuries acquired within the current encounter, I think Doug's argument holds a lot of water. You are either in shock (0 HP), or have a specific injury (broken arm, hamstrung), otherwise you haven't really had much time for fatigue or bleeding.

The boxing match, the medieval pitched battle, and other counter examples people provided were all on much longer timescales that a D&D encounter.

D&D doesn't actually model specific injuries, fatigue, or bleeding. All of that is abstracted to "HP".

[bunsen_h]

D&D doesn't actually model specific injuries, fatigue, or bleeding. All of that is abstracted to "HP".

There are some exceptions. Vorpal weapons can sever heads. (I've got a nagging vague recollection of some other weapon that could sever limbs, but I can't pin it down.) In some editions, a Sword of Wounding caused its ongoing loss of HP by bleeding. The unnumbered-edition DMG notes that "If any creature reaches a state of -6 or greater negative points before being revived, this could indicate scarring or the loss of some member if you so choose. For example, a character struck by a fireball and then treated when at -9 might have horrible scar tissue on exposed areas of flesh — hands, arms, neck, face."

[BloodSquirrel]

There are some exceptions. Vorpal weapons can sever heads. (I've got a nagging vague recollection of some other weapon that could sever limbs, but I can't pin it down.) In some editions, a Sword of Wounding caused its ongoing loss of HP by bleeding. The unnumbered-edition DMG notes that "If any creature reaches a state of -6 or greater negative points before being revived, this could indicate scarring or the loss of some member if you so choose. For example, a character struck by a fireball and then treated when at -9 might have horrible scar tissue on exposed areas of flesh — hands, arms, neck, face."

Severing heads is mostly just fluff- mechanically, it's instant death. Bleeding is just HP loss- there's no separate mechanic for a person suffering from the blood loss itself. Scar tissue is just RP fluff

D&D doesn't have any specific mechanics to model the loss of combat effectiveness from a broken arm. Some systems do, and some systems just have HP loss inflict a blanket penalty on actions.

Of course, D&D has also always been confused about what HP actually represents- whether it's literal physical injuries, or whether it's a more abstract collection of factors. Different mechanics treat it as different things.

[bunsen_h]

Severing heads is mostly just fluff- mechanically, it's instant death. Bleeding is just HP loss- there's no separate mechanic for a person suffering from the blood loss itself. Scar tissue is just RP fluff

There are a few cases where severing a head doesn't result in instant death. Hydras and chimeras are obvious examples. I'd be surprised if someone hadn't brought a Pierson's Puppeteer into a D&D session at some point; as shown in Ringworld, decapitation for them is a serious inconvenience rather than being fatal. ("You tied a tourniquet around his neck, doctor?")

[brian 333]

Sword of Sharpness was similar to a Vorpal Blade, but it severed various extremities, with the head being 1:10 chance, if I recall correctly.

Penalties included off-hand fighting, elimination of dex bonus to AC and such for severed limbs. (My brother tried to argue that his Int 8 fighter should not be penalized by decapitation because he didn't lose anything he needed in a fight. It was 1970s funny.)

[Kish]

Not really. 8 years is a much longer time before you're fifty than after you're fifty.

For a paladin? That kind of depends on what all is included in "immune to disease," doesn't it?

And in any event...72 is the youngest age he could possibly have died of old age. Which means if he died at age 58, unconvincing as I found "he probably committed seppuku to become a ghost martyr," it suddenly becomes a lot more likely; someone, whether Soon or Shojo's father, certainly chose that he wouldn't be resurrected.

[Peelee]

For a paladin? That kind of depends on what all is included in "immune to disease," doesn't it?

And in any event...72 is the youngest age he could possibly have died of old age. Which means if he died at age 58, unconvincing as I found "he probably committed seppuku to become a ghost martyr," it suddenly becomes a lot more likely; someone, whether Soon or Shojo's father, certainly chose that he wouldn't be resurrected.

Disease aside, i chose fifty as an arbitrarily high enough number, not to indicate i thought Soon was fifty when the Scribblers split. I'll admit that wasn't very clear.

[Precure]

Interestingly both Soon and Girard seems to die prematurely, as he was dead for more than twenty years.

[F.Harr]

Oh, that is delightful. :)

[woweedd]

When Calder mentioned making a banquet out of Bloodfeast, my heartbeat rate begun to get faster. Rich, please don't give me hope if you won't follow through.



Yeah, I'm trying to fill a blank there too. Vaarsuvius is a talker, but when they were on their evil mode they were surprisingly laconic other that few remarks.



IMHO better than Tarquin and Xykon.

About Durkon's villain speeches, I think making/writing good speeches itself is about INT and WIS, but it's CHA that determine their effectiveness on the usee.

So i'm almost scared to ask, but why do you hate Bloodfeast exactly?

[Riftwolf]

More like 8 years between "Scribblers splitting up + Sapphire Guard founded" to Soon dying. 4 if Soon's handover to "Shojo I" (renamed Ronjo in the War & XPs Guide to Azure City at the end of the book) has been pushed back to match "Shojo II"'s changed age).


Soon stopped running the Sapphire Guard some 56 years ago (maybe 59 if you assume one of the "pre-Shojo's crowning" dates is 4 years out (since Shojo is 72 not 68).


Shojo's "present day" age changed a little since then from 68 to 72 (War & XPs), which may affect the chronology slightly. If Shojo is still 12 when Soon dies, this pushes the date Soon died back a bit to 59 years ago (since the "66 years ago" figure for them discovering the existence of rifts, is in the main strip - Crayons of Time).

Quick thought: do we know how Soon died? We just know he's dead (source: his ghost), but I can't remember seeing a tomb or mention of how he died. The only source from memory is Shojo, probably the most unreliable narrator thus far.

Another thought was a tombstone saying 'SOON' is an ominous thing.

[Peelee]

So i'm almost scared to ask, but why do you hate Bloodfeast exactly?

I've noticed over the years that Precure's story opinions tend to skew heavily towards controversial.

[brian 333]

Quick thought: do we know how Soon died? We just know he's dead (source: his ghost), but I can't remember seeing a tomb or mention of how he died. The only source from memory is Shojo, probably the most unreliable narrator thus far.

Another thought was a tombstone saying 'SOON' is an ominous thing.

Some opine that he would have had to die while fighting for his cause to be a martyr. (I am not one of those.) If this is the case, his body may not have been recoverable to be raised.

Some might opine that the binding of their souls to the sapphire may have made the Ghost Martyrs ineligible for raising. (A bound soul is not free, therefore cannot be raised.) I lean toward this explanation. I do not rule out that Soon just had a DNR clause in his will.

Again, since we know nothing for certain, this is guessing at best.

Note:
Udai Soon will be in next Halloween's graveyard right between Dr. Frank N. Stein and May B. Stiff.

[Quizatzhaderac]

D&D doesn't actually model specific injuries, fatigue, or bleeding. All of that is abstracted to "HP".

Sure, and I would be fine¹ if D&D had specific injuries.

But I was assuming people talking about diminish combat capabilities weren't interested in all the complexity of specifc injuries and were just thinking a simple penalty or being at "disadvantage".

¹from a realism perspective, I'm skeptical from a gameplay perspective.

[brian 333]

The question is, would it be fun?

All of the realism in the world could be in the game. Some games even have that. Nobody plays them.

[Mordar]

There are some exceptions. Vorpal weapons can sever heads. (I've got a nagging vague recollection of some other weapon that could sever limbs, but I can't pin it down.) In some editions, a Sword of Wounding caused its ongoing loss of HP by bleeding. The unnumbered-edition DMG notes that "If any creature reaches a state of -6 or greater negative points before being revived, this could indicate scarring or the loss of some member if you so choose. For example, a character struck by a fireball and then treated when at -9 might have horrible scar tissue on exposed areas of flesh — hands, arms, neck, face."

I now noticed I was pre-empted...but Sword of Sharpness was the original limb-lopper.

The question is, would it be fun?

All of the realism in the world could be in the game. Some games even have that. Nobody plays them.

But there have been several games that increased granularity and did get played. Original Deadlands, for instance, tracked damage in locations, and you took a penalty based on the highest coded damage in any location. Rolemaster had critical hits that caused specific location damage that could include incapacitation of that location. Both were very, very successful games.

- M

[Riftwolf]

The question is, would it be fun?

All of the realism in the world could be in the game. Some games even have that. Nobody plays them.

D&D is a game I play to live out unrealistic fantasies. Like being able to get up off the floor in less than six seconds.