OOTS #1302 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

"[sources rule]

That's the best source!

[Precure]

When Calder mentioned making a banquet out of Bloodfeast, my heartbeat rate begun to get faster. Rich, please don't give me hope if you won't follow through.

Was V's villain monologue better? Did they even have one? All I can think of is "We are all in the Monster Manual somewhere, are we not? My Entry lies between Elemental and Etherial Filtcher."

Yeah, I'm trying to fill a blank there too. Vaarsuvius is a talker, but when they were on their evil mode they were surprisingly laconic other that few remarks.

How does everyone rate Kubota?

IMHO better than Tarquin and Xykon.

About Durkon's villain speeches, I think making/writing good speeches itself is about INT and WIS, but it's CHA that determine their effectiveness on the usee.

[Taragorn]

Not quite. Xykon has DR 15/magic and bludgeoning from being a lich, while a greatsword does slashing, so that's still a significant reduction of damage. And undead use Charisma for their Concentration checks - guess what the epic sorcerer lich probably boosted into the low stratosphere? And that's against Roy, with the anti-Xykon build - being undead and having that much DR reduces Belkar, Elan, and Haley's damage to near-negligible levels, while his immunity to fire, cold, and electricity means that most of V's evocation spells do even less.

Plus, the Calder fight has been burning through the Order's resources, while Team Evil hasn't been expending all that much of theirs. It'd be more like Team Evil being at 70% and the Order at 7%.

I very much doubt that the final fight will revolve around a straight up D&D 3.5 ruleset. Team Evil has at least 3 competing loyalties in it. I'd bet good cash right now the end of this story will not be resolved by methodically beating Xykon down to neg HP using properly chosen, resistance bypassing, attacks.

[Reach Weapon]

I very much doubt that the final fight will revolve around a straight up D&D 3.5 ruleset.

I was very much thinking the same thing, but seeing it written out like that makes me realize what an amazing callback to the comic's earliest pages that would be.

[bunsen_h]

When CHA is used for its mundane reaction-to-others checks, the penalty doesn't apply to others of one's own kind. Is the penalty applied when the CHA stat is used for other purposes? EDIT: Or is Durkon's unmodified CHA so low that he gets a penalty even with respect to other Dwarves?

I have literally never heard of any such rule like this. Your attributes just give a modifier to relevant rolls equal to (Attribute-10)/2 rounded down in 3.5e.

You mean the stuff about the CHA penalty not applying to others of one's own kind? I don't know how things are in these degenerate days, but back in non-numbered AD&D, it was right in the Players Handbook. "As has already been noted, dwarven characters get a bonus of 1 added to their initial constitution ability, and a penalty of 1 on their charisma score due to racial characteristics. It is very important to note the actual charisma score prior to racial adjustment, however, for dwarven characters do not suffer charisma penalties, nor are they limited to a 16 charisma maximum with regard to their own race." Etc., giving several examples of how the negative effects of the penalized CHA (such as a maximum number of followers) wouldn't come into effect with regard to other dwarves.

Appendix I, Psionics, specifies that it's the unmodified INT, WIS, and CHA stats that affect matters.

My good bunsen, I know you wouldn't make more assumptions to cover weak spots of prior assumptions in chemistry!

It was either that or a chemistry/biology joke and I figure you've already got that area monopolized.

More of an English Lit joke, really, but also a possible explanation for the eyestalk number not matching the typical Beholder's. I'm not claiming that it's likely to be the case. (My knowledge of biology is spotty eclectic. I never got along well with biology, biochemistry, or geology, which all require memorization of large volumes of factoids. I'm good at spotting and remembering patterns. I aced second-year organic chemistry, with one major exception: I could not remember the association of reactions with the names of their discoverers. For example, I had no trouble remembering a certain category of common reactions, and seeing the relevant reagents' structures, could figure out how they would react with each other. Seeing the product structure, I could predict the appropriate reagents to make it. But if I was asked what the Diels-Alder reaction was, or was shown a diagram and asked what the name was, I couldn't do that.)

[MeowMeow]

A few questions for everyone in the thread:

1. What combat round are we on?
2. How many standard or full-round actions has Calder taken?
3. How many standard or full-round actions has Elan taken?
4. How many standard or full-round actions has Serini taken?

Spoiler: My answers

Show

1. The 5th round, counting the surprise round as round #0.
2. Ten: Nine standard actions and one full attack.
3. Two standard actions.
4. One standard action.

Spoiler: How is this possible?

Show

1. The DM wrote down an extra zero for Calder's hitpoints, that's why he is still alive and the combat is still going.
2. Calder was put in stasis back during 3.0. One of his last actions was to cast 3.0 Haste on himself, which gives him an extra partial action each round. Because of the stasis, the Haste spell didn't expire in the decades since.
3. The player doesn't know the rules for bardic music, and the other players know he's useless so they haven't bothered to tell him.
4. She's an NPC and the DM forgot about her until round five.

[Kish]

I think you have 3 and 4 wrong in a way that fundamentally misunderstand Rich's process, as he's gone into before.

Elan and Serini both took the same number of standard or full-round actions as Calder. Most of those were irrelevant to the narrative ("Here Calder takes a little more damage...") so he didn't bother to draw them.

[Peelee]

I never got along well with biology

Yes, you're a chemist, that's assumed.

I aced second-year organic chemistry

Which can go die in a fire.

For reals, chemistry was my favorite of them all. Which is impressive since i was an enormous fan of just rounding gravity to 10 and pi to 3 and still being pretty much correct in physics.

[Ruck]

Also, when Roy threw Xykon into the first Gate back in Durukon's Dungeon, it was because he was angry. That is, we have a "rule" in the OotSverse that if someone is very angry, they can do more damage than expected.

I don't think that's something we can take from that scene. It doesn't seem to have happened anywhere else, Barbarian rage aside. Or the times it's activated Roy's Weapon of Legacy-- which, if we want to take anything from that scene that can be applied elsewhere, I'd say it's a very crude version of that power, not just "being angry."

[brian 333]

Yes, you're a chemist, that's assumed.

Which can go die in a fire.

For reals, chemistry was my favorite of them all. Which is impressive since i was an enormous fan of just rounding gravity to 10 and pi to 3 and still being pretty much correct in physics.

Hmm... Lived in Alabama. Moved to Washington. Rounds acceleration and pi to nearest whole numbers.

Is Peelee the guy who lost a Mars probe because of a math error? That sort of mistake often results in promotion in large bureaucracies.

[Peelee]

Hmm... Lived in Alabama. Moved to Washington. Rounds acceleration and pi to nearest whole numbers.

Is Peelee the guy who lost a Mars probe because of a math error? That sort of mistake often results in promotion in large bureaucracies.

A.) haven't moved to Washington yet. Just here because the feds told me to be.
2.) Mars probe crash was due to a private contractorsswho used imperial instead of metric and didn't tell anyone else.

We landed on the moon because our physicists assume a spherical cow in a vacuum. Rounding pi is close enough for government work school.

[gbaji]

One side said, "Wounds that don't drop you from shock have no significant effect in the combat where you are wounded, because adrenaline is a wonderful thing", that side had lots of studies by the defense department, FBI data, and historical data like why the US Army swapped to the .45 pistol in 1911.

The other side said, "Of course wounds impair you" and had lots of frantic hand waving and no actual evidence whatsoever. Nor could anyone on that side find any evidence despite looking, nor any anecdotal examples other than fiction. It simply did not exist.

If you are wounded, but still in the fight where you were wounded and still fighting at all, then you are close enough to full efficiency that any impairment isn't worth representing in game. Wound impairment is not, in fact, realistic. It is a "realism" rule people add to some systems that makes the game both less fun and actually makes it less realistic. There are lots of things that are unrealistic about HP (wounds aren't cummulative that way, and long term effect and mortality isn't all that closely related to whether or not you go into shock, and serious wounds don't heal as fast as they do in D&D land), but lack of wound penalties is something they got right.

Well, except that the "point of effect" being discussed here is "impairment" not "death" ("wounds that don't drop you from shock", right?). Which makes the whole thing kinda ciruclar, since it's basically saying "if you aren't affected by the damage, then you aren't affected by the damage". So... somewhat pointless IMO.

The real point is that there is typicallly a pretty decent range of damage/time in between "hurt to the point of dropping, or inaction, or unconsciousness" and "hurt to the point of death". So even if we assume that wounds don't cause any impairment prior to causing you to "drop from shock" (a claim probably far more accurate to modern firearms than older melee weapons, but whatever), there's still a degree of innacuracy in terms of how relatively few hps exist between the point of "falling to the ground unconscious" and "dead" (typically just 10 points). More realistically, and especially with melee weapons injuries, it's entirely possible for someone to become so injured that they can no longer fight, but still take many hours (or even days!) to die.

So yeah, that counter is really just moving the goalposts in terms of the problem. TBH? It's just not something to worry about, since it still "works" as a game mechanic.

I was thinking about that too, but I realised I'm not actually certain that Roy used Spellsplinter there. In all instances where I'm certain that he used it, there were a couple of factors - he was facing them head on, and he was ready for the strike - specifically in #886 it looks a lot like Roy is using it as a readied action (much like a counterspell), and he's not striking until Xykon tries to cast - he's definitely got extra attacks to spend, but instead he's holding fire until Xykon casts.

In #1003 when he uses it against vamped Durkon, he can see Durkon coming and he's ready for the attack, so it could well be a readied action... granted he follows it up with another attack, but that looks like it might be a combat maneuver... not sure lol.

But then in #1006, it looks like Durkon slightly got the drop on him with his gaseous form - Durkon appeared behind Roy, who noticed him start casting and then reacted - so that's plausibly an attack of opportunity, rather than a readied action.

Now this is all total speculation of course, since we haven't really had too much detail on how Spellsplinter actually works - it could be all attacks of opportunity, and it's not like we get a clear indication of the types of actions characters are using (especially since a lot of that is going to be based on things like combat pacing, making it look awesome, etc. rather than actual combat rules)... So I'm almost certainly reading way too much into the art choices and such - but we're all guilty of that here sometimes, right?

Yeah. Unfortunately, Roy doesn't actually say "Spellsplinter" when using the manuever, so it's hard to tell exactly when it's being used. But he clearly uses it here, since it's commented on. When we see him here, it looks like Roy is either just doing an attack, or an AoO, and Durkon just made a bog standard concentration roll to keep casting his spell.

As to the question of how the move works, I would assume it's more than just forcing the caster to make a concentration roll, since that's what casters normally have to do to cast while being attacked/damaged in melee. If I were to guess, I would assume that the move sacrifices some damage for a much greater chance of interrupting the spell (which could range from "automatically disrupts one spell cast in melee range" to "significant negative to concentration roll to one spell cast while in melee range").

And yeah. From a storytelling point of view, it would kinda suck to have Roy die, go to the afterlife, meet his grandfather and learn this super rare feat, only to have it be useless (or only marginally useful) against Xykon. My guess is that as long as Roy is able to stay in melee range with Xykon, and is able to keep using it, he'll be able to lock down Xykon's spell casting. It's not like this is an automatic "I win" button for him though. Xykon still has flight (and his new boots mean he can pretty much always escape melee range if he wants). Xykon also has allies who may notice this and do something to interfere with Roy being able to use the feat against Xykon. But it will presumably come in play at some point, and create a noticable dent in TE's ability to just straight up curb stomp the Order (which is a good thing).

Durkon's charisma modifier is irrelevant; an undead cleric uses it's wisdom for concentration checks. Greg's wisdom modifier is undoubtedly good, but not as good as Xykon's charisma modifier.

Plans A & B were to fight Team evil today. A plan to wait for a long rest may be colorable, but there are a few factors against it now.

Those plans were before they learned how to enter the Final Dungeon. Now that they know this, they know they have plenty of time. Roy literally says they will rest once they "pick their spot" in the Final Dungeon, also that there's no need to rest before hand, since they should not encounter any fights on the way to getting to "their spot" (which, as things tend to go, did not turn out to be true). Also Roy clearly seems to think that TE will be busy searching the dungeons for the next "48 hours or so".

So. Barring some dramatic change in what TE does, it will take them the next couple days to get into the Final Dungeon, at which point they will still have to fight their way through the various traps and monsters to reach the gateroom (or whatever "spot" near there that the Order sets up their ambush). Unless Durkon actually dies here, pretty much nothing that happens in this battle with Calder will affect the battle with TE that is to come. The only impact may be on levels they have when TE gets there. Some of them may gain a level in the fight. Some may lose a level if they die and have to be resurrected. But in any case, the Order will have their full complement of spells when TE gets there.

1. The order didn't see the cut away scenes and thus doesn't know Team evil's exact itinerary. Even Team Evil and the audience have limited knowledge of where Team Evil will be in 8 hours.
2. Taking a long rest raises the possibility the encounter beings during the long rest.
3. If both sides get a long rest that may be disadvantageous as Team evil was spent spells on clearing the dungeon.

Lots of dances are circular.

I'm not seeing any of those. We did see cut away scenes. Blackwing reported exactly what TE was doing. They were running through the dungeons at a rate of about one every 7 minutes (and currently taking a snack break when Blackwing joined back up with the group). There's zero reason to assume that whey either will or can change anything they are doing to actually get to the Final Dungeon any faster than the current timeline.

They are in a dungeon that has been sealed with everything in stassis for like 50 years. There's nothing wandering or roaming inside. So I'm not sure how taking a long rest can result in an encounter. Admittedly, the one variable here is if Calder does somehow flee this fight and in the process wakes up other monsters in the dungeon. Then, all bets will be off. I would still expect that the Order could baracade themselves in the antechamber to the gate room (or wherever), and safely rest and wait for TE to get there.

TE is not going to be able to get a long rest between "fight our way through the traps and monsters between the entrance and the gateroom" and "arriving at the gateroom". They don't know the dungeon. They don't know where the gateroom is. How on earth would they know when they've defeated or bypassed all the stuff between them and the gate, without actually arriving at the gate? At which point, the Order attacks them while they are at full strength and TE is weakened from whatever resources they had to expend to get there.


Again. This is "if things go according to plan". Which is by no means a guaranted thing. But, at least from what we currently know, and the current conditions of the two parties, the Order should have a significant advantage on TE in terms of rest and spells when they do finally fight. And to be honest? They'll need that advantage to have a chance. Xykon alone could wipe the entire group if the conditions are right (pretty much any case where he can get his big AE spells off against them). I think that "Order fully rested and prepared" against "TE, significantly depleted" would still be a pretty good and even fight.

[elros]

During the prior strip, Calder prevented V from falling and suffering (likely) fatal damage. Since he believes V to be protected from mind blank, why the save? I realize it is probably to dominate V as a future follower, but from the story standpoint it must be to set something up. Maybe that is “an act of mercy” and the paladins will accept a surrender?

[Peelee]

During the prior strip, Calder prevented V from falling and suffering (likely) fatal damage.

V fell from practically the same height at the end of the same strip, without dying. Incredibly unlikely the initial fall would have been fatal.

Since he believes V to be protected from mind blank, why the save?

So V could not get out of the AMF, most likely.

[arimareiji]

Sunny was from their mother's side untimely ripped. That might have led to some developmental issues. It's possible that the eyestalks grow in incrementally, and that Sunny would have grown a couple more before budding off.

The Romanian judge gives this triple combo (Macbeth * asexual fission * AD&D) a 9.5 on the groan scale. One heck of a degree of difficulty. (^_~)

As I suggested earlier, it could be something as simple as Xykon refusing to take him seriously, and being unable to remember Roy's name. Though I'm not convinced that this "rule of angry" exists. In that particular case, it wasn't being thrown that caused Xykon all that damage, but the effects of Dorukan's wards.

Indeed. If we're talking game mechanics I'd venture that something like this discussion is where Roy would've needed bonuses to succeed. After that, "crashing into Dorukan's wards" is a special case much worse than "being thrown into acid" (but at least it's not as bad as "being thrown into a prismatic sphere").

[Deprox]

Was V's villain monologue better? Did they even have one? All I can think of is "We are all in the Monster Manual somewhere, are we not? My Entry lies between Elemental and Etherial Filtcher."

Two-page villain monologue leading up to that line, one of the best in the comic.

"Had you simply attacked me, I would have left you dead. But you made the mistake of involving my family in our conflict. This leaves me with the task of ensuring that today's events will never rise again to threaten them.

One of my new friends has a special epic necromancy spell for just such an occasion as this. She calls it–

FAMILICIDE!

Every living creature that directly shares your bloodline is dead. Every living creature that is directly related to any of those creatures is also dead. Anyone who could possibly make a claim to be part of your family is gone now.

(...)

Now no one will come to avenge your defeat. No one will lament your passing. Think about the fate you have brought upon your family as you suffer in the afterlife.

This – and no less – is the price of threatening my family.

Disintegrate."

[pendell]

I have a hunch Xykon is not going to be our final challenge. I know it's been years, but remember Redcloak's interview with Tsukiko, just before he silenced her; the ritual they will enact gives control of the gate to the Dark One so he can move it to any plane, once open. It doesn't give Xykon control of the Snarl.

While I'm certain we'll have a couple combat rounds at least with Xykon, there's every possibility he will wind up on .. maybe not the same side, but an adjacent side. He wants to rule the world, not destroy it. Redcloak, by contrast, is happy to destroy the world if it means goblins get a better position in the next one.

Let's review the players and their goals that we know of.

The heroes want to secure the gate and prevent its destruction, thus saving the world. They want to gain the Dark One's cooperation to establish a four-quiddity lock on t he gates, which should be enough to properly secure the snarl.

The Dark One wants, at the least, to be more equal to the other gods. It's also possible he would like a world in which he is the only god, and goblins the only species. Just because you're a member of a downtrodden minority group doesn't mean you can't be a speciesist , evil being. If anything, it seems to me that being downtrodden tends to breed just the sort of hatred and anger which most societies consider evil.

The Fiends council is still in play, although what exactly they have in mind I do not know yet. Surely the destruction of this world isn't in their best interest either? You can't harvest evil souls or inflict untold suffering on a planet unmade by the Snarl.

Xykon wants to rule the world. His goal is the simplest and most straightforward.

He and the Dark One are at cross-purposes. Which means that at some point there's going to be a falling out. Redcloak expects that both he and Xykon will be killed when the ritual is completed -- or, worse, unmade by the Snarl. There's no way Xykon will go along with this.

Ah, who am I kidding? We're setting up for the Snarl to be the final boss. I fully expect OOTSworld to be destroyed and remade before all is said and done. And I fully expect, when this happens, that Xykon will be destroyed by the Snarl in the process.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Doug Lampert]

Well, except that the "point of effect" being discussed here is "impairment" not "death" ("wounds that don't drop you from shock", right?). Which makes the whole thing kinda ciruclar, since it's basically saying "if you aren't affected by the damage, then you aren't affected by the damage". So... somewhat pointless IMO.

The entire point I was making is THERE IS NO IMPAIRMENT other than dropping!

None. People have done studies. If you do not drop, you are not significantly impaired. That there is only one type of impairment, and it is dropping is not circular.

And impairment sort of dropping is not a thing that happens. There are two states, fighting and not fighting.

Dropping and death are separate, but that's true in D&D too. They're too connected in D&D (you don't drop till you are dying), but if you do not drop in real life then you are effectively unimpaired.

[danielxcutter]

There aren't mechanics for arms and legs being injured to the point of impairing movement, which is a thing IRL though.

[brian 333]

I respectfully disagree.

We do not know much about The Snarl, it is true. I expect we will learn more. However, The Author has compared The Snarl to The Maltese Falcon and The Briefcase in Pulp Fiction. The Snarl will motivate characters to act, but will not directly act itself. It is a McGuffin: the object the others fight over.

Princess Buttercup and The One Ring are more like The Snarl than Emperor Palpatine.

[Peelee]

There aren't mechanics for arms and legs being injured to the point of impairing movement, which is a thing IRL though.

There are in Stickworld.

[Curtis Cook]

Of Course it's a competition. The only people who think otherwise are Losing losers who lose.

"In my defense, I am not very smart."

[Curtis Cook]

Reading through the discussions of game mechanics in this thread makes me VERY glad I'm still on AD&D version 2 (actually homebrew 1.5).

[verato]

This page is comedy gold! It just has so many layers. Belkar simultaneously insulting the villain, getting in position to attack the villain, AND trolling Durkon? Absolute perfection. And Blackwing's prompt "reassurance" of V is just the icing on the cake.

This is one of the funniest moments in the comic so far... and that's saying a lot, honestly! You are such a skilled writer, Mr. Comic Maker, sir. Bravo!

[gbaji]

The entire point I was making is THERE IS NO IMPAIRMENT other than dropping!

Right. And my point was that this is a pointless observation, since the real point is that "dropping" and "death" are the same thing in D&D (or close enough not to make a significant difference). And *that* is what folks find unrealistic.

The point is that there are a host of injuries which will impair you to the point of no longer being able to function (ie: "dropping you"), while still leaving you quite some time away from actually dying.

Even in the absence of "degrees of impairment" type rules, even the standard "you fight at full capablity, and then you die" is problematic.

None. People have done studies. If you do not drop, you are not significantly impaired. That there is only one type of impairment, and it is dropping is not circular.

Setting aside that this is only one aspect of the issue, I also don't quite agree. With modern firearms where hydrostatic shock is a very real thing, that is generally true. And even then also generally in the modern sense. A soldier with their arm or leg blown to bits, if not incapcacitated by shock, can still fight, because he's likely using a firearm. Prop him up, point him in the correct direction, and he can continue providing fire downrange. That same soldier, fighting with a sword and shield on a battlefield, will be unable to wield his weapons effectively, despite being quite capable of crawling, hopping, or otherwise moving around in ways (or even continuing to fight with one remaining functional arm) that don't meet the definition of "incapacitated".

Unless you are using the word "impaired" as a synonym for "incapacitated", then I don't think I agree with this.

And impairment sort of dropping is not a thing that happens. There are two states, fighting and not fighting.

Dropping and death are separate, but that's true in D&D too. They're too connected in D&D (you don't drop till you are dying), but if you do not drop in real life then you are effectively unimpaired.

Again. Excactly how many of these studies involved people fighting in sword fights? Or any other type of combat *not* involving modern ballistic type weapons?

You telling me that boxers experience no impairment of their abilitiy to fight over the course of a bout? Or MMA fighters? What you are saying literally flies in the face of what every participant and spectator of these sports knows to be true.

Peopple get tired while fighting. They suffer muscle fatigue. They suffer injuries which hamper their abilities over time. Every quarterback who just whacked their hand on a defensive lineman's helmet knows this. So no. The idea that you function at perfect 100% capability until the moment you drop unconscious (and in the case of D&D are either already dead, or are bleeding to death and will die without immediate medical attention) is frankly absurd.

We accept it for game mechanic simplicity and game play functionality, but it is in no way actually realistic. I mean, I suppose if we only measure a binary "can you fight or not?" measurement, then what you say is true. But if we're measuring "how effectively can you fight?" (ie: degrees of impairment), it's not. I suspect the issue is that we may be using very different definitions of the word "unimpaired" maybe?

[jdb-44]

Question: are there rules in the D&D version used by the comic regarding how many times/day a dragon can use its breath weapon? If I remember correctly from 1st Edition (the only one I'm really familiar with), a dragon could only breathe 3x/day. If that's the case, then Calder would be fireless for the rest of the current combat.

[Provengreil]

Question: are there rules in the D&D version used by the comic regarding how many times/day a dragon can use its breath weapon? If I remember correctly from 1st Edition (the only one I'm really familiar with), a dragon could only breathe 3x/day. If that's the case, then Calder would be fireless for the rest of the current combat.

Per the SRD, they recharge in 1d4 rounds after the breath in 3.5 with no maximum. Hit point total notwithstanding, Calder can keep up this level of offense literally all day.

[bunsen_h]

That same soldier, fighting with a sword and shield on a battlefield, will be unable to wield his weapons effectively, despite being quite capable of crawling, hopping, or otherwise moving around in ways (or even continuing to fight with one remaining functional arm) that don't meet the definition of "incapacitated".

"'Tis but a scratch!"

[Phantom Thief]

As much as the team has every right to fight back here, I wonder if its a mistake to try and wrap things up quickly here, as Roy put it.

Maybe theres still a chance they could at least try and manage some kind of temporary truce. Calder is showing his vanity here, he must care if the universe gets erased and nobody remembers who he was.

I know its not really eeasonable to think about that right in the middle of combat, but even if they could just find a way to fling Calder out into the canyon to bump into team evil, theyd probably come to blows just out of a clash of personalities.

[Ericw]

Red Dragons are very Tankish. It's just that if you're taking on 6 17th+ Level Adventures, a small squad of sidekicks, and a T-Rex, you're gonna get alittle overwhelmed. Take it from a DM. No monster is gonna be a real challenge if he's heavily outnumbered. He's gonna take too much damage to fast before he can do all his cool stuff.