Ionathus's Random Banter #249 -- Directionless Rambling Is Now Mandatory

[Anonymouswizard]

Counterpoint, why is giving ANYONE an immunity against being compelled to testify a good idea? Either everybody has a right to privacy or no one does.

From a quick search, it seems the only reason given is "it might make the spouse mad and they could become a hostile witness!" which applies to EVERYBODY.

Plus based on my consumption of a 100% accurate courtroom video game series witnesses are 1) always hostile and B) probably the actual guilty party.

[LaZodiac]

Several years ago in the early morning as I waited for my shere ride to college, I saw a family of deer maybe five strong gallop out of the trees, across the street, hop my neighbor's fence, and bolt across the field toward the line of old growth trees in the distance just after sunrise.

Majestic as ****, I tell ya hwat.

I recall an incident where a womaan in 2012 called a radio talk show to bitch about how she'd been in three separate car accidents involving deer on a busy road with a deer x-sing sign near buy to bitch about why the deer were encouraged to cross on said busy road.

Deer are as majestic as a regal forest nymph, and as stupid as a raccoon who broke into a candy store. Wonderful creatures.

There are so many layers to unpack about that lady. The fact that she genuinely thinks that's how it works, the fact that she has hit THREE deer in that exact same area that makes it wrap around from "sad accident" to "lady this is directly your fault", the sheer balls to call in to a radio show to be like "I need to tell people about this". It is fantastic.

Apropos of absolutely nothing, but my friend got shushed at the Library of Congress yesterday.

I have taken great delight in telling our entire friend group.

Impressive. I've never been shushed at a library and I take it with a bit of pride- though truthfully "be quiet so others aren't bothered" is like, the barest minimum level of politeness one can expect.

[Anonymouswizard]

The main reason I've never been shushed at a library is the fact that reading takes lots of concentration. Even the Warhammer club I briefly attended didn't get told to keep it down, although when we started on Dark Heresy we quickly relocated our sessions to be polite.

[Peelee]

Yes, for he has defiled the sanctity of the Library. Let his shame be spread far and wide.

She. Also, she did get a library card from them so she feels on the whole it was more than worth it.

Counterpoint, why is giving ANYONE an immunity against being compelled to testify a good idea?

Because the conveyance of free and unfettered communication is seen as invaluable in, and this is the key here, very few and highly specific circumstances, all of which have exceptions under which testimony can still be otherwise compelled. And, again, it is one of the few circumstances in which the state cannot compel one to testify but does not prevent one from willfully testifying anyway.

Impressive. I've never been shushed at a library and I take it with a bit of pride- though truthfully "be quiet so others aren't bothered" is like, the barest minimum level of politeness one can expect.

Same, and same for her before this. The Library of Congress is different from most other libraries, though, and it was just another tourist who did it. But it's still funny for both of us (and, i presume, anyone I tell it to).

[Bohandas]

Here's the thing. If you believe all that, then the solution is for you, specifically, to not get married. It is not for you to strip the rights and benefits of being married away from everyone else

Why should people be given benefits just for being married? If anything it should impose penalties

It's not about marriage being sacred/not sacred, it's just about a package of legal benefits that come with marriage. I imagine there are good reasons for that, though I'd have to actually look into what those legal benefits are, the reasoning behind it and probably the historical context too in order to gain an in depth understanding of them, which I honestly can't be bothered to do.

If you have to look at the historical context then it's very unlikely that there ARE good reasons. At best there WERE good reasons.

[Peelee]

Why should people be given benefits just for being married?

Imean, i literally just said why in that post. Because the free and unfettered communication (in this case between spouses) is considered to be worth more than the value in forcing to testify, and even then, it's structured such that they still can testify if they wish (unlike with doctor-patient or attorney-client privelege).

If you want to argue that it should be done away with the the entirely, then regardless of anything, I'm wary of any plan involving "give the state more capability to act unilaterally and compel its citizens to specific action" without good reason.

If anything it should impose penalties

¿Por qué?

[Bohandas]

Because it's a deprecated feature

[Peelee]

Because it's a deprecated feature

What penalties do you have in mind for marriage?

[Bohandas]

Marriage fraud, from my understanding, is about living conditions and economic impact rather than romance. IE somebody in the next town over getting married to you just so they dont have to pay for insurance while they continue to live a completely separate life that mostly doesnt intersect with yours.

Well that shouldn't be a requirement either if what people are saying here to defend marriage is even a little bit valid valid. If it's about insurance or getting a green card or not testifying then why should living together matter.

That aside, my argument is "your reasoning is pure entitlement of 'why can't everyone have access to everything with no downsides?'" Which, yes, I agree would be nice, but is also an unbelievably simplistic view that i honestly never really expected to encounter on these boards.

The institution is already pure entitlement

What penalties do you have in mind for marriage?

I don't know. But something enough to cancel out the social obnoxiousness that remains even after the pointless legal entitlement is removed

[Peelee]

The institution is already pure entitlement

Stable families typically help form stable communities, which is good for society. Marriage is encouraged to help form stable families. This can easily be multi-racial, same-sex, or poly, because in all examples people coming together typically combines resources and, among other benefits, enhances purchasing power, stimulating economies, and helping the community develop. In the parlance of the youth today, "apes together strong".

This is very basic social studies stuff, and again, something pretty much every society has figured out is something that should be encouraged because it helps build strong societies. Notably, no successful society that i have ever heard of penalized marriage.

I don't know

Well then think, friend! How can we punish people for getting married? You came up with the idea, surely you have some thoughts on it!

[Bohandas]

luxury tax?

[Peelee]

luxury tax?

I like it, but it doesn't go too far enough. Can we have each kid people have be taxed extra too?

[Bohandas]

Only if they have the kid on purpose

[Ionathus]

Deer are as majestic as a regal forest nymph, and as stupid as a raccoon who broke into a candy store. Wonderful creatures.

There are so many layers to unpack about that lady. The fact that she genuinely thinks that's how it works, the fact that she has hit THREE deer in that exact same area that makes it wrap around from "sad accident" to "lady this is directly your fault", the sheer balls to call in to a radio show to be like "I need to tell people about this". It is fantastic.

The place I grew up in, when someone new moves to town, the community teaches them what to do WHEN you hit a deer — not if.

There’s a reason our neck of the woods has a deer hunting season.

As for the lady calling into the station — listen, they put up signs for railroad crossings, so obviously SOME of them are premeditated! Or are you suggesting locomotives are wild animals, too?

[Rater202]

There’s a reason our neck of the woods has a deer hunting season.

Because you killed all the bears and wolves, thus removing the natural checks on the deer population?

[Form]

Same, and same for her before this. The Library of Congress is different from most other libraries, though, and it was just another tourist who did it. But it's still funny for both of us (and, i presume, anyone I tell it to).

I feel like it doesn't really count if she wasn't shushed by an official Librarian. I guess she lucked out on that one. Won't have her name of the list of Shame after all.

[Metastachydium]

1. I have some rather radical views on marriage that I thankfully cannot and, therefore, will not share here, so I'm good to leave it at that.

2. WHY DOES ANYONE WANT TO TALK ABOUT THAT WHEN YOU COULD ALL BE TALKING ABOUT A VERY POLITE BIRDY?!

ANYWAY. Seagull story.

-------------------

Yesterday I went out for a doctor's appointment. The clinic is in this strip of buildings, and near it is a pizza hut. It was around 8:25 at the time, and when we arrived I noticed a seagull standing patiently at the door. I left the car and approached, observing, because birds doing things that are slightly atypical of regular birds is a fun thing to watch.

Spoiler: photo 1, observation of gull

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The seagull was just standing there. No other gulls were around. There were people about, making noise and cleaning up trash revealed by the snow finally being gone. One rather rude lady did a racism at someone for daring to drop a candy wrapper. Very unpleasant, especially since I knew the lady from previous moments of my life. The person she was racist against later tried to spit on her car but didn't know which one was hers and got the wrong one.

Anyway, the customer. He just sat there. Occasionally he honk, occasionally he bonk. It wasn't a classic gull noise you'd hear at the sea-side, or from later seagulls that will show up. It was more of a honk, definitely, sometimes extended in length. His pecking usually focused at the divide between winder and glass, but sometimes was up on the glass, and always a double-rap of "th-thok".

Intrigued I decided to approach to take a better picture. Once I got up to the pizza hut's bespoke sidewalk area, the seagull began to leave- not in a flurry of wings and rush and panic, but in a tentative sort of waddle away from the door to get a better look at me (I was attempting to hide behind the architecture of the building so as to not spook the customer).

Spoiler: Photo 2, observed by gull

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I then returned to my initial safe distance, and the customer immediately got back in line to continue his task of honking and bonking. He really wanted that pizza, and near as I can tell simply was trying to perform the human ritual. The pizza hut is no longer an eat-in restaurant, instead just a massive building that has had all of its seating area blocked off and reduced to a singular kiosk window. People go to the door, knock, come in, get pizza, leave. So the customer was attempting to do similar, and clearly confused about why it was not working. No za! Why no za!? He do the thing!!

My medical appointment was at 10, so I had some time to kill, and as such I saw no reason not to sit down with my back to one of the strip-mall's pillars and just kinda watch.

Some highlights from this endeavor include;

1: Another gull appeared at some point, and got close to the customer. The customer swiped him away with a dismissive wing swing that held the clearest "yo **** off" I've ever seen from an animal.
2: Another gull appeared at some point, got close, and straight up started screaming in the customer's face. The customer ruffled up about it and screamed back and when their near total scream-argument ended, the aggressor left and the customer got back into position.
3: Another gull, a more normal gull, appeared and briefly roosted up on one of the lamp posts that don't have any light sources. He seemed far more normal as far as birds go. Here is a picture of that.

Finally, as 9:40 rolled around, I got up to go, and bid the customer farewell. I took one final picture, and then told the customer I hoped he got his pizza. I picked up the soda bottle that was present on the ground before the litterer showed up that the racist lady was mad about- notably she didn't pick it up herself, instead just being racist about it- and took it into the dollar general to throw it away. When I left the dollar general the customer was gone, having left as I turned to leave myself.

Someone in another chat asked if the seagull was actually my familiar, but sadly I didn't recognize it.

Spoiler: Photo 3, so long customer

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I'm somewhat saddened to hear that the customer never got their pizza, though. Fortunately, these guys are extremely resourceful (and also probably very happy (my first ever exposure to seagulls was hearing them vocalize in unison from a hotel room; for a moment there, I was absolutely certain a group of very loud people were laughing together for some extremely nefarious reason)), but it's still rude to ignore someone like that.

I hope everyone enjoyed the seagull encounter I posted above.

Very much. Loved those pictures too!

Has anyone else had weird encounters with animals like that? It's not super uncommon up here since animals are all over the place- there's also a lady who has perfectly tamed a raven so that it always sits on her rearview mirror as she drives, and that **** feels really notable.

On the one hand, awwww. On the other hand, I hope she doesn't drive about too fast.

Sadly, no matter how much I adore them, the crows around my place don't interact with me much besides occupying the nearby high ground and bombarding the garden with walnuts. I saw two of them dogfight a kite once, though, albeit quite evidently purely to troll the poor birdy of prey. Oh, and I met one who was being chased about by a very fat magpie too. I think that was the result of a quarell over who gets to steal the food of the neighbour's dog, incidentally.

[Form]

1I'm somewhat saddened to hear that the customer never got their pizza, though. Fortunately, these guys are extremely resourceful (and also probably very happy (my first ever exposure to seagulls was hearing them vocalize

That's a very generous way to describe the racket those beasts make. I had to put up with them regularly in my previous apartment around summer when flocks of noisy seagulls would sometimes suddenly appear, attracted by food tossed out by some [insert unkind words]. I tell you, I do not miss that.

[Peelee]

crows

Apropos of nothing, do y'all know how to tell the difference between a crow and a raven? The quickest and easiest way is size. If you see a black bird and think, "is that big enough to be a raven?", then it's a crow. If you see a black bird and think "HOLY **** that's big", it's a raven.

[Metastachydium]

That's a very generous way to describe the racket those beasts make. I had to put up with them regularly in my previous apartment around summer when flocks of noisy seagulls would sometimes suddenly appear, attracted by food tossed out by some [insert unkind words]. I tell you, I do not miss that.

But-but-but-but-but… They sound so HAPPY!

Apropos of nothing, do y'all know how to tell the difference between a crow and a raven? The quickest and easiest way is size. If you see a black bird and think, "is that big enough to be a raven?", then it's a crow. If you see a black bird and think "HOLY **** that's big", it's a raven.

Correct. The size and shape of the beak is also very telling. The colour of it too, in much of Europe I might add.

[Bartmanhomer]

Why can't marriage be both a ceremony and a contract?

[Peelee]

Why can't marriage be both a ceremony and a contract?

Marriage is a contract. Wedding is the ceremony. They can (and often are) done simultaneously. But weddings aren't necessary to the process at all.

[Ionathus]

Because you killed all the bears and wolves, thus removing the natural checks on the deer population?

Guilty as charged

[LaZodiac]

I'm somewhat saddened to hear that the customer never got their pizza, though. Fortunately, these guys are extremely resourceful (and also probably very happy (my first ever exposure to seagulls was hearing them vocalize in unison from a hotel room; for a moment there, I was absolutely certain a group of very loud people were laughing together for some extremely nefarious reason)), but it's still rude to ignore someone like that.

Very much. Loved those pictures too!

On the one hand, awwww. On the other hand, I hope she doesn't drive about too fast.

Sadly, no matter how much I adore them, the crows around my place don't interact with me much besides occupying the nearby high ground and bombarding the garden with walnuts. I saw two of them dogfight a kite once, though, albeit quite evidently purely to troll the poor birdy of prey. Oh, and I met one who was being chased about by a very fat magpie too. I think that was the result of a quarell over who gets to steal the food of the neighbour's dog, incidentally.

It is a lovely sound, isn't it! Very loud and rambunctious and awful if you don't want to hear loud honk noises, but if you do wanna hear it it does absolutely feel like laughter, yeah.

Thanks! I try to take a lot of pictures when I'm out and about. I still need to finish transferring all my photos from my trip to the States and stuff...

Don't worry the raven holds on really tight and our speed limits are sane. Though that does remind of an anecdote my dad told of meeting her once; out on the ice road during winter, he saw her drive past really quick... with the raven in hot pursuit. When he next saw her she was parked and the bird back in place receiving scritches. She was, as it turns out, "walking the dog" for lack of a better term. Exercise is important even for corvids!

Corvids in general are super duper smart, so them teasing a Kite (a predator that is non the less not really going to be able to get them) and getting menaced by a magpie makes sense, cause they love causing mischief and shiny things.

On that note if you want to try and become friends with a raven, carry bird feed and shiny objects on your person, greet them gently, and give'em snacks and shiny baubles. They will quickly come to appreciate you.

[Bartmanhomer]

Marriage is a contract. Wedding is the ceremony. They can (and often are) done simultaneously. But weddings aren't necessary to the process at all.

Well, that makes sense.

[Rater202]

The thought occurs to me that Zodi's seagull was basically forming a cargo cult.

[Peelee]

The thought occurs to me that Zodi's seagull was basically forming a cargo cult.

That kind of happens in the Bobiverse!

Also, now that I'm all caught up on it, Rater, never read those books. I think they might send you into full-on metaphysical crisis anaphylaxic-esque shock.

ETA: Free wifi on the flight home.


There is a non-zero chance that i have opened Strava and set it to record a run that as of this word has 20 miles in 2 minutes and 32 seconds.

[Lord Raziere]

yeah crows are really intelligent, the stories I've heard are things like one trying to give money to a food stand seller for food, and another story says they gather around a corpse of crows to investigate it like a murder.

birds man, most likely animal to become sapient next.

I've finally finished FFXIV Stormblood yesterday leveling Samurai, switching to Dark Knight to level up to hopefully play Shadowbringers as that class one day, but I'm not sure if Shadowbringers will ever become free, programming will take time to learn and I don't have a source of income yet. love the red samurai outfit I got the end of the class quest though, really makes that classic ronin look work.

other random thought I've been having today: cyberpunk as a genre seems to oversimplify the world into megacorps and random criminal gangs on the street, which doesn't really match up with what I see of our world which is full of organizations and people outside of that paradigm with their own beliefs and concerns, but maybe I haven't read enough cyberpunk to know it beyond its steroetypical depictions.

[Anonymouswizard]

That kind of happens in the Bobiverse!

That the one where a tech to gets their mind forcibly uploaded to a space probe and forced to explore other star systems and make copies of himself?

I should really finish the first book.

[Peelee]

That the one where a tech to gets their mind forcibly uploaded to a space probe and forced to explore other star systems and make copies of himself?

I should really finish the first book.

Well, forcibly insomuch as he really wanted to anyway, but yeah. Book 5 releases in just a few more months, and i hear they've optioned the film rights.