[3.PF] What should a "non-wuxia" high-level fighter look like?

[The Vagabond]

I'm basically re-phrasing a question from the Paizo forums. What should a "Non-Wuxia" fighter look like? Not what it does look like, but what it should. I'll put the example fight from the forums onto here;

• A party of high level (17th level) martials is taking on a high-level caster (18th level caster, plus enough minions to make it a CR 20 encounter).
• The encounter is taking place in the caster's stronghold. Think, if you like, of Conan encountering the evil wizard at the top of his tower. This gives the caster the home field advantage plus all the prep time in the world.
• The party consists of a fighter, a rogue, gunslinger or a skirmisher ranger, and a brawler. No spells among them. More importantly, no magical items duplicating spells either. This is about martials themselves being cool, not martials pretending to be casters.
• The caster is RAW legal; no nerfing him. Simulacra of wish-granting outsiders, bags of marbles with symbols on them, teleporting to private demiplanes, all legitimate.
• * The party is not allowed to do anything "wuxia," "weeaboo," "anime," or similar derogatory words.

.... but other than that, the party is not restricted in any way by the Pathfinder rules. The whole point of this experiment is to figure out what an awesome martial character looks like, feels like, and plays like. So if jumping 50' in the air is "wuxia,"or shooting bolts of lightning from your hands is "anime," you don't get to do that.

And, most importantly:

• The party has to win, and win awesomely, so that everyone has a good time.

I'd like people to tell me how a truly exemplary but non-wuxia martial would win this fight,

Mechanics doesn't matter, just describe the type of stuff you can see happen against a high level ranger.

As for the definition of what's non-wuxia, I'd define it as one of the following:

• "If you'd believe Jackie Chan doing it."
• Can be done without CGI or Wirework (Not that it would be practical, just that it can be done)
• You could see Conan the Barbarian do it.
• You'd believe Captain America (MCU, not comics) could do it.

[Milo v3]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the following things also count as "wuxia" for the purpose of this discussion, so people don't mention them to just argue against over the top super powerful things in fantasy can be celtic without being wuxia:

• Mythic
• Celtic
• Anime
• Wuxia

It's the feel that's important in this discussion, not the actual specific word wuxia.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'm of the opinion that magic is power, and not using it is like not using gunpowder and electricity in modern warfare. That said, there are several options here.

One, the high-level fighters all die, or become the magician's minions, or otherwise incapable of scratching the mage. It's not fun to play, it's not heroic, but that's what fighters who don't duplicate mind blank look like in a fight.

Two, the fighters are all dragons, demons, golems or similar. They are naturally resistant to magic, and they're naturally strong enough to bring down the room on top of the mage. The mage is in trouble, though of course, spells can do nasty things without ever touching anyone directly. In this fight, I'd expect the fighters to use their brute strength to crush the mage as soon as possible, possibly simply attacking the tower at night and collapsing it whole in the surprise round. If the mage ever gets a quiet moment to cast the right spell (teleport is one), the fighters are days behind again. Of course, contingency is still practically undefeatable.

Three, the fighters are all gishes - they know magic, even if it's nothing compared to the mage, and they can - to a certain extent - counter and avoid common spells. They're not wuxia, but they're definitely not mundane either. This is my preferred answer, but I don't think that's what you were asking for.

[Extra Anchovies]

With the given information, I'm in total agreement with ExLibrisMortis. You can't be a high-level (15-20) combatant without having either some sort of magic or being a monster (likely one with piles of special attacks and defenses).

• Mythic
• Celtic

For clarity's sake, what are some defining traits of these two? I get anime and wuxia, and have a suspicion that Mythic refers to Greek and Roman epic heroes, but I'm not entirely sure and have no idea what is meant here by Celtic.

[Milo v3]

For clarity's sake, what are some defining traits of these two? I get anime and wuxia, and have a suspicion that Mythic refers to Greek and Roman epic heroes, but I'm not entirely sure and have no idea what is meant here by Celtic.

Mythic refers to the over the top "anime-esque" according to some powers some demi-gods and gods have in various myths from Greek/Roman/Indian. This is because demi-gods and gods count as divine and magical in nature, so aren't allowed.

Celtic is because it is like... the most over the top ridiculous awesome myths. I mean, they use giant rainbow swords and slice mountains and when they're pissed off they get super hot like in a shonen anime so you have to pour water on them.

Also, for the record, I agree with AMExLibrisMortis. I personally think all classes should have a non-mundane power source so they can do magical things at high level and remain relevant.

[Rubik]

Fighters have one thing they can do at higher levels without magic, magic items, or magical support: hit stuff. That's pretty much it. It's the same thing they've been doing since level one; they've just gotten better at it. Unfortunately, most of what they go up against will be comparatively better than them than they were at level 1, so unless their builds are highly optimized, they'll actually be worse in proportion to their enemies, even if said enemies don't have magic of their own. Higher Str and Con, better special abilities, larger size, MUCH larger reach, and so on, which puts the kibosh on half of the tactics that actually worked at level 1.

In short, a wholly mundane party of unoptimized mundanes at level 20 without any magic probably didn't get to 20 without DM coddling, since most monsters at their level will curbstomp them.

[Renen]

You allow simulacrum of wish granting outsiders. Yeh, the party isn't winning. Because if they come close to doing so, a number of contingencies go off, and wizard is back at full HP.

Also, the part of the quote that mentions derogatory words... I do think the only one that qualifies as such is weaboo

[Red Rubber Band]

Considering we're trying to run it as a movie type explanation I'm thinking the wizard will be throwing around a lot of evocation and summons. I just don't see these guys winning, even cinematically, without some kind of magical power.

Most of this could be called out as feeling too anime, but that'll be the other ultimate problem with this. Subjectivity.

So based on the above:
I'd expect the gunslinger to go full Matrix. Hail of bullets, a cape (or trenchcoat ) which somehow protects them from most physical and magical attacks, and the crazy quick reloads.
The rogue. I've read plenty of books with shadow step style characters that did not feel anime, but again it's all based on opinion. I guess it could be the reflexes of a mongoose type rogue dodging, twisting, and evading everything. But... shadows
The fighter is cutting through summons and spells, carving a path through the hordes of minions, spells bouncing off their skin. Probably dipped Barbarian at some point so they Hulk out halfway through the battle.
Skirmisher ranger... obvious archetype is Legolas. Peppers the wizard with enough arrows to throw off their aim, while dodging behind pillars and point blank shooting things in the face. Looks for the higher ground and supports the fighter and brawler from above.
And lastly the brawler. Styled after MGS Big Boss? Using summons as shields and weapons the brawler is lost amidst the sea of mooks. The only way you can tell where they are is the odd generic baddie being tossed up in the air, and the sounds of crunches and breaks that inevitably surround them in battle.

[Renen]

One specific example of a rogue type character from books I know, would be the protagonist of the Night Angel trilogy. He had an intelligent item that literally ate all the magic that was directed at him, and provided immortality. Maaaaaybe that could give a sliver of a chance.

[The Vagabond]

Fighters have one thing they can do at higher levels without magic, magic items, or magical support: hit stuff. That's pretty much it. It's the same thing they've been doing since level one; they've just gotten better at it. Unfortunately, most of what they go up against will be comparatively better than them than they were at level 1, so unless their builds are highly optimized, they'll actually be worse in proportion to their enemies, even if said enemies don't have magic of their own. Higher Str and Con, better special abilities, larger size, MUCH larger reach, and so on, which puts the kibosh on half of the tactics that actually worked at level 1.

In short, a wholly mundane party of unoptimized mundanes at level 20 without any magic probably didn't get to 20 without DM coddling, since most monsters at their level will curbstomp them.

That's the thing- I'm not talking about what they can do, I'm talking about what they SHOULD be able to do. Abilities they should get to be able to fight that Wizard up there. Things that grant them narrative ability.

[squiggit]

The fundamental problem I think is that what's considered "wuxia" or "anime" is entirely arbitrary and all encompassing because they're such broad terms.

Like in threads on the paizo forums I've seen people legitimately argue that characters like Beowulf, Roland and Cu Chulainn are all "too anime". How do you even reconcile that?

[Renen]

That's the thing- I'm not talking about what they can do, I'm talking about what they SHOULD be able to do. Abilities they should get to be able to fight that Wizard up there. Things that grant them narrative ability.

NOTHING short of full casting or a **** load of magic items will make their victory believable. You are saying they have no super special abilities, so a wizard can win as easily as casting one of many "force cage" type of effects. You know... Ones that need teleport action to escape

[Red Fel]

Here's how I see it. If we're dealing with "non-wuxia" Fighters - that is, Fighters who are utterly mundane, just terribly good at it - then we should deal with non-wuxia combat results. In other words, in a wuxia setting, people swing blades at each other all the time, and get minor cuts or scrapes, or parry outrageously, rather than what really happens - namely, you get a blade in your gut and bleed out on the floor.

So here's what I see your utterly mundane high-level Fighter looking like in an encounter with a high-level enemy caster. I've put it in spoilers, because it's part answer, part rant.

Spoiler

Show

1. Get somewhat thrashed. It's inevitable; you're a non-caster going up against a caster. Sit there and take the beating.
2. Bluff. One of the uses of Bluff is "feign harmlessness." You just got your butt handed to you by the caster, it shouldn't be too hard to look pathetic.
3. Catch the bastard monologuing. You're looking at a big bad caster with lots of minions who just owned a team of martials. You know he'll be on an ego trip, and with that many minions, you know he's going to want to show off.
4. While he's monologuing, roll to cram a weapon down his throat. I don't mean roll to attack. I mean ask the DM the DC to ram your weapon down his throat. You are a high-level Fighter. If you can't straight-up murder somebody by forcibly introducing a piece of sharpened steel into their soft, meaty insides, you have no business in your chosen career; go home and sell horse-drawn carriages. You should be able, being utterly mundane, to simply take your weapon and rip a guy open with it. I'm not asking for attack rolls, or tricks, or maneuvers, or anything that can be countered; irrespective of spells, or mage armor, or shape changing, a mundane sword driven straight into a chatty BBEG's open mouth should be entirely lethal.

That's how I see a non-wuxia Fighter doing this. And if the DM has an issue with there being a roll to make someone swallow your non-metaphorical sword, maybe he should just lighten up on the "no weeaboo crap" nonsense and let the game be played as written.

Short version: I take issue with DMs who want to limit what martials can do on the basis of wanting to exclude "wuxia" or "anime" stuff. Performing over-the-top physical acts is the only refuge left to the pathetically normal martial in a world of wizards, demons, and dragons. Stop taking away their nice things.

[Renen]

But remember how he said there are no holding back for the wizard (aka Tippy wizard).
So if the fighter gets within 5ft, multiple contingencies go off. Oh, and he is also immune to all lethal and nonetheless damage. The sword won't even do anything, might make it hard to breathe, but he doesn't need to breathe either, he got a spell for that.

Oh, and thanks to divinations, he knew the fighter would do this a week in advance.

Oh, and this isn't the wizard, it's an astral projection of an aleax - ice assassin of him.

[OldTrees1]

Question: Permission to nerf the caster back to Tier 3 first? Tier 1 combat is rather uninteresting TO in my opinion.

Presuming this is allowed then I see the high level generalist warrior (specialist warriors would be even better at some of these things but worse at others) as:

A being of remarkable resilience.
Through martial prowess and reflexes he is able to avoid or block most blows including rays and insubstantial threats. Even when hit the warrior knows how to diffuse most of the effect away from themselves. What is left affecting them they deal with through their iron will and fortitude(which would be more than mere saving throws of course). The minor bruising they sustain(by diffusing what would have been deadly wounds) is repaired relatively quickly by their great constitution.

A being of endless reach.
The warrior has not yet encountered an obstacle that they could not name at least 2 ways to traverse. Through a balanced application of their great strength and agility they can roam the battlefield quickly. Some might zip around the obstacle(say a Wall of Force), others would exploit its holes, still others would just break their way through. But mobility is not the limit of their reach. They are a master of both melee and ranged warfare. Just as obstacles are little trouble for them such are limited expedience for their weaponry. Through unerring accuracy, exploiting weakness, and sheer force their attacks are not easily blocked. (I don't have a general mundane solution to Planar Travel yet)

A being of perfect readiness.
While the mage and priest have been working on their careful craft that requires patience, the warrior has been honing their own craft. By pressing action into reflexes and developing great intuition the warrior reacts faster and faster than their companions. They start to progress towards the twin ideals of immediate reaction and constant action.

A being of knowledgeable destruction.
How many kinds of wounds can a sword inflict? A seemingly easy question with an equally easy apparent answer. However that is seeming and nothing more. A warrior has spent time pondering, and pondering, and pondering some more. As time goes on they notice the number they can count just keeps increasing. A slash to cause bleeding here, a thrust to immobilize a golem there, the twisting cut that terrifies a vampire, ... The list just keeps increasing and the warrior starts to wonder if they will still be adding new kinds the day they die.


So to give a general answer:
The warrior quickly runs through/around the obstacles thus clearing a path for the party to follow(not that the rest of the party would need it). As they do so they are resilient in the face of the harrying attacks and even have time to provide covering fire for the rest of the party(not that the rest of the party would need it either). The BBEG may retreat if they are quick enough(readied action can hinder casting otherwise) but their stronghold has fallen and the day is saved for now.

[Red Fel]

But remember how he said there are no holding back for the wizard (aka Tippy wizard).
So if the fighter gets within 5ft, multiple contingencies go off. Oh, and he is also immune to all lethal and nonetheless damage. The sword won't even do anything, might make it hard to breathe, but he doesn't need to breathe either, he got a spell for that.

Oh, and thanks to divinations, he knew the fighter would do this a week in advance.

Oh, and this isn't the wizard, it's an astral projection of an aleax - ice assassin of him.

Sword down a throat.

This isn't somebody who's going to be stopped by having acid thrown in his face, or lasers fired at him, or fire. This isn't somebody who gives up just because the enemy is an alien, or a demigod, or a construct, or indestructible. This is Rambo. This is Conan. This is a guy who has decided to introduce steel to your inner workings.

And this guy is going to kill you with a sword down the throat.

No anime. No wire-fu or leaping through the air. No conjuring fire or vacuums with a swing of the weapon. No flashing lights or glowing spirits or organs playing in the background.

Just a sword. And a throat. And maybe a primal roar for good measure.

And then the credits.

[Extra Anchovies]

That's the thing- I'm not talking about what they can do, I'm talking about what they SHOULD be able to do. Abilities they should get to be able to fight that Wizard up there. Things that grant them narrative ability.

Well. The things that high-level martial characters should be able to do is, well, everything you've told us to not mention. Wuxia, anime, Celtic/Greek/Indian mythology. A 20th-level fighter should be able to break rainbows in half with their bare hands and then dual-wield the parts of the rainbow.

ETA: Dual-wield the rainbow. Taste the rainbow.

Do they need to be magical to do so? No, they don't. A 20th-level fighter should just have a bunch of extraordinary abilities that are, truly, extraordinary. They should be able to fly because they're just that strong (think the Hulk, and early Thor/Superman), or because they're agile enough to literally walk on air. They should be able to take their sword and cut a hole in the world that leads to another plane because they're just that good with a blade. That sort of thing.

[Renen]

What should a "non-wuxia" high-level fighter look like?

Something like this

[Rubik]

That's the thing- I'm not talking about what they can do, I'm talking about what they SHOULD be able to do. Abilities they should get to be able to fight that Wizard up there. Things that grant them narrative ability.

Problem is, wuxia is exactly the kind of thing that mundanes will need to be able to do in order to keep up with even a low-optimization wizard. It's the kind of thing that legendary epic mythological heroes throughout the world have done since people started telling stories.

So you cannot say "no wuxia," because without that, all you've got is "I hit it," and that will lead to a very messy death, if you're lucky. If you aren't, enjoy eternity as a wizard's mind-slave.

[Milo v3]

Sword down a throat.

This isn't somebody who's going to be stopped by having acid thrown in his face, or lasers fired at him, or fire. This isn't somebody who gives up just because the enemy is an alien, or a demigod, or a construct, or indestructible. This is Rambo. This is Conan. This is a guy who has decided to introduce steel to your inner workings.

And this guy is going to kill you with a sword down the throat.

No anime. No wire-fu or leaping through the air. No conjuring fire or vacuums with a swing of the weapon. No flashing lights or glowing spirits or organs playing in the background.

Just a sword. And a throat. And maybe a primal roar for good measure.

And then the credits.

But you didn't kill him. You just killed a minion who looked like him made of ice. He's on his own plane of existance, and the rules say you can't use magic.... it's... not exactly fair.

[Karnith]

Like in threads on the paizo forums I've seen people legitimately argue that characters like Beowulf, Roland and Cu Chulainn are all "too anime". How do you even reconcile that?

Well, on that last one...
Cu Chulainn is the one in blue
But, more seriously, with the restrictions present in the OP, I don't believe there is a credible way that martial characters could pose a threat to high-level/high-op D&D/PF casters (at least, not through their martial abilities alone - as noted above, subterfuge could conceivably work). You'd need the ability to do more than what actual human beings are capable of - to move at superhuman speeds, to dodge or block (the magical equivalents of) bullets, to shrug off Hails of Stone and Orbs to the face, to cut through Mage Armor and Prismatic Spheres, to reach through the planes and grab the Wizard out of his demiplane, and so on.

[Extra Anchovies]

But you didn't kill him. You just killed a minion who looked like him made of ice. He's on his own plane of existance, and the rules say you can't use magic.... it's... not exactly fair.

Alright then. Non-wuxia fighters will all have died by the high levels, because they can't cast Ice Assassin etc.

Happy? Probably not, because that doesn't contribute to a fun and balanced game. Fighters need to casually break laws of reality (and of magic) to at least somewhat keep up at high levels of play.

[Renen]

Well, on that last one...
Cu Chulainn is the one in blue

And Beowulfs sword, when used by the other guy in the video (though at a different point in time) and turned into a projectile created an explosion similar to a tactical missile.

[Red Fel]

Oh, and this isn't the wizard, it's an astral projection of an aleax - ice assassin of him.

But you didn't kill him. You just killed a minion who looked like him made of ice. He's on his own plane of existance, and the rules say you can't use magic.... it's... not exactly fair.

Hold on a second, because this is a case of goalpost-moving.

I'm willing to accept that the Wizard has a dozen contingencies, is buffed to the dentures, and probably has an extra life stuffed somewhere in his robes. But the prompt explicitly says that the PCs are taking on a high-level caster. And his minions, true, but the caster himself. Sure, they could be taking on the caster and several omnipotent copies of him. But ultimately, according to the prompt, the caster is present. Otherwise this entire scenario is rendered moot by the statement "Sorry, hero, but your caster is in another fortified keep." If he was never even present to begin with, then it becomes literally impossible for the PCs there to defeat him, because he's not there to be defeated.

So we must assume that the caster is there, in person, in order for the scenario to even mean anything. And if he's there, he can be killed.

With a sword.

You know where I'm going with that.

[Milo v3]

Hold on a second, because this is a case of goalpost-moving.

Actually the OP says: "The caster is RAW legal; no nerfing him. Simulacra of wish-granting outsiders, bags of marbles with symbols on them, teleporting to private demiplanes, all legitimate." The goalposts are intentionally unfair.

[Renen]

Hold on a second, because this is a case of goalpost-moving.

I'm willing to accept that the Wizard has a dozen contingencies, is buffed to the dentures, and probably has an extra life stuffed somewhere in his robes. But the prompt explicitly says that the PCs are taking on a high-level caster. And his minions, true, but the caster himself. Sure, they could be taking on the caster and several omnipotent copies of him. But ultimately, according to the prompt, the caster is present. Otherwise this entire scenario is rendered moot by the statement "Sorry, hero, but your caster is in another fortified keep." If he was never even present to begin with, then it becomes literally impossible for the PCs there to defeat him, because he's not there to be defeated.

So we must assume that the caster is there, in person, in order for the scenario to even mean anything. And if he's there, he can be killed.

With a sword.

You know where I'm going with that.

OK. Without wuxia all u got is hp damage.
The wizards buffs make him immune to all hp damage. He also cant be strangled,drowned, grappled, etc.

Oh hey I know! The wizard only has 1 buff: he is ethereal.
There! Try and touch him without any thing that's magical.

[OldTrees1]

So we must assume that the caster is there, in person, in order for the scenario to even mean anything. And if he's there, he can be killed.

With a sword.

You know where I'm going with that.

Yep the caster is there, in person.

A Tier 1 caster might be difficult to kill though due to certain TO tricks on the caster's body. The sword down the throat should(talking ought not is) bypass most/all of those.

I don't think you need to sneak in either. One of the readied actions of a high level fighter should be enough to disrupt an attempt to Teleport away(via a nice cut perhaps?).

Oh hey I know! The wizard only has 1 buff: he is ethereal.
There! Try and touch him without any thing that's magical.

If you meant: The wizard is on another plane than the stronghold, then that is either the Wizard retreating(started without the buff) or the Wizard not being at the stronghold.

If you meant: The stronghold is on the ethereal plane, then the high level fighter must also be on the ethereal plane already.

So while planar barriers are a good means of retreat, the ethereal plane is not an insurmountable obstacle.

[Extra Anchovies]

Actually the OP says: "The caster is RAW legal; no nerfing him. Simulacra of wish-granting outsiders, bags of marbles with symbols on them, teleporting to private demiplanes, all legitimate." The goalposts are intentionally unfair.

Then the fighter has to play unfairly too. The fighter pierces the heart of the Ice Assassin of the BBEG spellcaster, bypassing the clone's magical defenses, and his blow is so powerful that the BBEG spellcaster feels it too - and it hurts.

The only way for fighters to keep up with casters is to be able to ignore the caster's magic or turn it to their advantage. You're hiding in your demiplane? Fine. I'll strike the edge of the demiplane with my sword and shatter its boundaries, destroying the demiplane and shunting its contents to the Astral, where we'll fight on a more even footing.

Basically, high-level fighters need an ability that lets them do literally whatever they want as long as they can tie it back to being good at fighting. With a permissive and fair DM, that would work just fine.

[Renen]

But how do you stick a sword there if he is ethereal?

[Red Fel]

Actually the OP says: "The caster is RAW legal; no nerfing him. Simulacra of wish-granting outsiders, bags of marbles with symbols on them, teleporting to private demiplanes, all legitimate." The goalposts are intentionally unfair.

Unfair, but explicit. The caster is present. The scenario presumes that much. He can have every unfair advantage, but the scenario necessarily assumes that he is present, at least at some point. He can leave, he can summon minions, he can create an ice assassin in his image, but at some point, the scenario presumes that he is present.

But how do you stick a sword there if he is ethereal?

Easily. He's ethereal.

The better question is, How does the caster take it out if he's ethereal?