OOTS #919 - The Discussion Thread

[gerryq]

I'm also wondering what happens when Tarquin's allies ask why he's sending scores of his soldiers to a quick death against a group of high-level adventurers... given how often he talks about "business before pleasure", I expect they won't be too pleased if he says "so my son can achieve his full heroic potential."

Indeed, I can see Tarquin's allies deciding he is a liability to be a plausible end for Tarquin (admittedly they show no signs of turning on him thus far, but he has no doubt taught them the advantages of keeping a poker face).

[strijder20]

Obviously this is just another of Draketooth's illusions and Nale and Z are still alive, Durkon isn't a vampire and Malack is still his leechy self. There is no battle.

[Muenster Man]

You STILL don't get it, right?

Look, V's fireball deal an average 35 damage. 35. That's the entire HP of a 6th level warrior!!!

Similarly, Roy has roughly +28 to hit, and an deals around 23 damage per hit. That will still instagib any 2nd, and 4th, for the matter, level warrior that is around!! he doesn't even need to be the target of the attack, he just needs to happen to be around when Roy butchers his comrades...

This is D&D. Low level mooks don't cut it againts a party in its teens. Slightly higher level mooks don't cut it either. Armies Vs high level heros is not designed to be a fight in D&D. It is designed to be a massacre.

No, I'm pretty sure I do.

If you look carefully at the post you're quoting, you'll notice that I point out that any low level mook targeted by a high level adventurer has virtually no realistic chance of survival. The point your post was trying to prove was exactly that and added little.

The point I was actually making was that any extra level provides them with a higher attack bonus, possible feats to take for hitting harder/more frequently, likely access to better weapons, and potential ability score increases (if at level 4). An archer mook in this encounter with Blind Fight as a feat would easily cut through that concealment and have a much better (if still poor) chance of hitting their AC. Every bonus and advantage matters, especially if the army is largely identical because then you can extrapolate small bonuses across hundreds of soldiers, making a very real difference. Roy needs every advantage he can get right now, and conversely needs to deny every bonus he can for his opponents. This is a battle of attrition, Roy can take down a dozen or more minions but he'll still likely get hurt at some point in the process.

The only adventurers right now who really faces no threat from the horde of minions are Durkon, unless Tarquin & co. decide to enter the fray, and Elan, who is only kept safe by the whims of Tarquin.

EDIT: Dangit, looked up the Blind Fight feat and it only works for melee. Still, without that example the point stands that any relevant combat feats the army could have taken results in an immense threat for the Order.

[Dracon1us]

Wooohoooo!!!!

I'm probably going to add "Yes, sadly" to my signature. By the way, ponytail!V smiley is long overdue, me thinks ;D

nice avatar...

[Dracon1us]

Indeed, I can see Tarquin's allies deciding he is a liability to be a plausible end for Tarquin (admittedly they show no signs of turning on him thus far, but he has no doubt taught them the advantages of keeping a poker face).

I thought the same...but I just don't see his allies leave him now, not the day in which also malak had become dust in the wind...business dictate that the empire comes first. I see an Expeditious Retreati in their future

[HeeJay]

Obviously this is just another of Draketooth's illusions and Nale and Z are still alive, Durkon isn't a vampire and Malack is still his leechy self. There is no battle.

You are wrong because familicide.

And I can't see how anyone could possibly disagree with me on questions of morality, unless they are a completely immoral monster.

[HeeJay]

Wooohoooo!!!!

I'm probably going to add "Yes, sadly" to my signature. By the way, ponytail!V smiley is long overdue, me thinks ;D

Here you go, right in the first post of this thread.

And I like your new avatar.

[Krim]

No, I'm pretty sure I do.

If you look carefully at the post you're quoting, you'll notice that I point out that any low level mook targeted by a high level adventurer has virtually no realistic chance of survival. The point your post was trying to prove was exactly that and added little.

The point I was actually making was that any extra level provides them with a higher attack bonus, possible feats to take for hitting harder/more frequently, likely access to better weapons, and potential ability score increases (if at level 4). An archer mook in this encounter with Blind Fight as a feat would easily cut through that concealment and have a much better (if still poor) chance of hitting their AC. Every bonus and advantage matters, especially if the army is largely identical because then you can extrapolate small bonuses across hundreds of soldiers, making a very real difference. Roy needs every advantage he can get right now, and conversely needs to deny every bonus he can for his opponents. This is a battle of attrition, Roy can take down a dozen or more minions but he'll still likely get hurt at some point in the process.

The only adventurers right now who really faces no threat from the horde of minions are Durkon, unless Tarquin & co. decide to enter the fray, and Elan, who is only kept safe by the whims of Tarquin.

EDIT: Dangit, looked up the Blind Fight feat and it only works for melee. Still, without that example the point stands that any relevant combat feats the army could have taken results in an immense threat for the Order.

Mmm granted, we don't know the exact Order's AC, but I fail to see how having a +4 or so attack bonus would help.

- Roy's AC is probably in the mid 20s making such bonus irrelevant. Besides, any attack bonus is irelevant if you lose initiative, although I guess you could make a case about Improved Initiative being useful there.

- V has stoneskin, so standard shoots are going to do little.

- Spiky has DR 10 IIRC, so again, not much use in that bonus.

- Durkon has way too high AC, DR, inmunity to crits and all in all, can not be hurt at all.

OK, that leaves Haley and Belkar as potentially vulnerable. Then again, Haley has at least +5 DEX and a +5 leather, plus whatever protective jewelry she has, so, again, barely in reach for a low level.

Mind you, the soldiers riding dinosaurs are probably of higher level, and the dinos themselves are certainly not CR1. But, at the end of the day, it means jack and squat when facing a semi prepared group.

[Muenster Man]

Mmm granted, we don't know the exact Order's AC, but I fail to see how having a +4 or so attack bonus would help.

- Roy's AC is probably in the mid 20s making such bonus irrelevant. Besides, any attack bonus is irelevant if you lose initiative, although I guess you could make a case about Improved Initiative being useful there.

- V has stoneskin, so standard shoots are going to do little.

- Spiky has DR 10 IIRC, so again, not much use in that bonus.

- Durkon has way too high AC, DR, inmunity to crits and all in all, can not be hurt at all.

OK, that leaves Haley and Belkar as potentially vulnerable. Then again, Haley has at least +5 DEX and a +5 leather, plus whatever protective jewelry she has, so, again, barely in reach for a low level.

Mind you, the soldiers riding dinosaurs are probably of higher level, and the dinos themselves are certainly not CR1. But, at the end of the day, it means jack and squat when facing a semi prepared group.

I don't know if initiative is a big deal anymore since the encounter started maybe a dozen rounds ago.

We can go by rules mathematics, even if that means little for the plot of this comic. If these guys have a decent Str/Dex of 14-16, then being level 2 gives them an attack bonus of +4-5 without quality weapons or relevant feats on top of that bonus. If Haley and Roy have an AC in the mid-twenties, then it wouldn't take much more for the minions to be able to hit on a 19. And hitting on anything other than a natural 20 is where those bonuses start to matter.

V's stoneskin is a great start, although it does technically run out after absorbing 150 points of damage. So if (and this is an admittedly a weaker argument) Tarquin says "Take down the spellcaster with concentrated fire!" then in a few rounds that spell is gone and we don't know how many times V has it prepared.

Yup, I already pointed out Durkon is immune to the horde. And Spiky, as summoned by Durkon, has a DR that doesn't run out like V's although he doesn't have fast healing and is subject to critical hits, meaning he can still accumulate damage (very) slowly.

But, I don't care about Spiky's well-being. I'm mostly concerned about Roy because he seems to be the one that Tarquin actually wants dead. In his mind, Roy is preventing Elan from being the leader of the group. And Roy has demonstrated that he can be hit many times in this fight and is in real danger of dying.

[Necris Omega]

Personally, I'm expecting a plotwise solution to Tarquin and Co.

It's been raised, but... as soon as the question of "why?" is raised amongst them, Tarquin will be hard pressed to rationalize this to his allies.

This has no tangible benefit to their business. They're throwing away soldiers and resources on a purely personal matter of Tarquin's, not to mention it's very clear they've already had to put up with this kind of BS once before with Nale. Tarquin stands there trying to play daddy while dragging his associates into the mix and having nothing to offer on their behalf.

Playing around in an adventure party with the Linear Guild is one thing, but now they're burning dozens of men and thousands of gold in resources all for Tarquin's plot fetish. Oh, wait, playing around with the Linear Guild got Malack wacked, so even there Tarquin's shenanigans aren't of trivial cost.

Having this whole thing unravel on him, upsetting his carefully crafted plot and the functions therein would be just about as good as seeing him bite it. Not to mention more realistic at this point.

[PaulTheSamurai]

"Wait - I know that smell..."

[drazen]

Having this whole thing unravel on him, upsetting his carefully crafted plot and the functions therein would be just about as good as seeing him bite it. Not to mention more realistic at this point.

I came up with an epileptic trees theory last night that the red dragon queen is really Elan's mother shapeshifted in his super-top-secret plan from #837, and she's ultimately going to show up and eat Tarquin, given how funny he thought it was when the same thing happened to Lord Tyrinar.

[Yxylu]

Because you just know that some OCD forumites are actually counting.

Panel 3: 3
Panel 5: 5
Panel 6: 23
Panel 7: 17
Panel 8: 157
Panel 9: 2
Panel 10: 3

That obviously includes dead ones, and I did my best trying to see through the sand and fire. It's still well below Comic 917, Panel 20 (654).

[F.Harr]

VAARSUVIUS! YEAH!


NOW we'll see who's keeping the protagonist from his journey, TARQUIN!

[Vortalism]

Ahh... Wizards...

Vaarsuvius, licence to Deus Ex Machina.

Well this answers the many questions and affirms The Giant's stance on V. Great comic anyhow, I just have no idea what's going to happen next, one of the many things I love about this comic.

[Spoomeister]

Vaarsuvius, licence to Deus Ex Machina.

That phrase, deus ex machina. I don't think it means what you think it means.

[Krim]

I don't know if initiative is a big deal anymore since the encounter started maybe a dozen rounds ago.

Uh, uh, I don't know about you, but in my games, each round is resolved by initiative. If your soldiers lose the initiative, and the guy in front grinds them in a single attack, well, that was it.

We can go by rules mathematics, even if that means little for the plot of this comic. If these guys have a decent Str/Dex of 14-16, then being level 2 gives them an attack bonus of +4-5 without quality weapons or relevant feats on top of that bonus. If Haley and Roy have an AC in the mid-twenties, then it wouldn't take much more for the minions to be able to hit on a 19. And hitting on anything other than a natural 20 is where those bonuses start to matter.

At this point, let's just agree to disagree on our concept of "mook", since I am thinking of warriors with a standard array (13/12/11/10/9/8).

V's stoneskin is a great start, although it does technically run out after absorbing 150 points of damage. So if (and this is an admittedly a weaker argument) Tarquin says "Take down the spellcaster with concentrated fire!" then in a few rounds that spell is gone and we don't know how many times V has it prepared.

And in a few rounds, they have eaten a fireball, a firewall, a chain lighting, Roy has mowed down nearly like 50, Haley has picked up a dozen, Durkon has dominated another 4 which in turn kill 2 more, Spiky has killed another half dozen...

And when the stoneskin wears away, V flys out of range, or goes invisible, or casts protection from arrows, or the Giant knows what. And then they realize the whole group is in melee and if they want to shoot, they are simply going to cause Friendly fire.

I dunno, I guess we have very different interpretation of the D&D rules.

[toapat]

That phrase, deus ex machina. I don't think it means what you think it means.

actually, pretty much it means exactly that.

thats also why V had a benchwarming session, as well as 2 more in reserve.

[peejaybee]

I don't think V's sudden use of the active voice here can be overstated. S/he's finally accepting full guilt and responsibility.

+1. That made more of an impression on me than the punchline, because sometimes I do that very thing -- catch myself using the passive voice to minimize my role in my own actions, then very deliberately switch to the active voice. It can be a powerful mind hack.

[Forikroder]

It's good to see V back in the game.



He's not acknowledging Roy as the hero, he's acknowledging him as the mentor figure who gets killed by the villain and motivates the hero to dramatically swear revenge.

you dont pick up replacement mentors in a bar

[chibibar]

V shows up for 15 seconds and saves the day and has done more then the rest of the party.

That is the nature of spellcasters. Especially HIGH level one. When you have a competent spellcaster in your party, it makes a BIG difference.

This is why you don't want too many spellcaster in a party. Prior to 4.0, spellcasters are physically weaker and have to rest/regain spells. This makes them vulnerable and thus need none spellcasters to keep them safe. They are your typical "Glass cannon" but after 4.0, there are at-will powers which allow spellcasters to cast all day (granted the big spells are encounter/daily but at-will are still nice)

[Muenster Man]

Uh, uh, I don't know about you, but in my games, each round is resolved by initiative. If your soldiers lose the initiative, and the guy in front grinds them in a single attack, well, that was it.

Okay, so you play it that way, I think it's a listed variant. Makes for more dynamic battles, however it's more time consuming on already time consuming battles.

At this point, let's just agree to disagree on our concept of "mook", since I am thinking of warriors with a standard array (13/12/11/10/9/8).

Fair point, I forgot about the standard array. Although, I intentionally low-balled the levels of the army. I wouldn't be surprised if Tarquin has large groups of level 2-4 soldiers, making up for that difference in attack rolls.

And in a few rounds, they have eaten a fireball, a firewall, a chain lighting, Roy has mowed down nearly like 50, Haley has picked up a dozen, Durkon has dominated another 4 which in turn kill 2 more, Spiky has killed another half dozen...

Well, yeah, I pointed out this was the weakest point in my argument. But even then, we still don't know just how many minions they're fighting. That cluster V took out in panel 5 isn't even shown in panel 7.

And when the stoneskin wears away, V flys out of range, or goes invisible, or casts protection from arrows, or the Giant knows what. And then they realize the whole group is in melee and if they want to shoot, they are simply going to cause Friendly fire.

The first two options would be repeating the mistake V made during the battle of Azure City. I don't think V wants that guilt in his/her shoulders again. The third has just been cast on Belkar. Maybe V prepared more, but I care less about V or Belkar's well-being than I do about Roy's in this situation, since he's the primary target.

Since we've established mathematically and plot-wise that over many rounds of combat Roy can take damage from hordes of opponents, he is threatened. If the soldier's start fighting Haley or Elan, they're legitimately threatened as well. It's a matter of how many minions they're fighting and how powerful those minions are that would determine whether or not members of the Order will die.

I dunno, I guess we have very different interpretation of the D&D rules.

Indeed.

However, since the original premise of this debate was on the theoretical danger extra levels on these minions would pose, it holds little relevance to the comic itself. If you would like to discuss this further with me, you can PM me or start a thread somewhere. But right here, I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall made out of pointless rules pedantry.

[ThreadKiller]

Reunited, and it feels so good! Love the last panel!

[Oko and Qailee]

V shows up for 15 seconds and saves the day and has done more then the rest of the party.

IDK, Roy has done A lot, and the party beat a ~CR12 Sand Elemental.

TBH if t wasnt for the archers, the Elemental would be a tougher fight than Tarquins entire army.

Think of it like this, Roy probably has 100+HP, for every round he'll kill 8 mooks and of those 8 mooks there is only a 34% chance he'll get hit AT ALL, when he does get hit, it will be for ~10dmg.

That doesn't even factor in the concealment Belkar is creating.

That means, that it's going to take 30+ rounds to take Roy alone down, 60+ due to the concealment, that means Roy, assuming no healing, is going to easily kill 480+ mooks.

Now, add in Durkon, who is immune to the Mook dmg essentially, the devil, the soldiers turning sides...

Don't get me wrong, V showing up is very good for The Order. But don't discredit them, Roy has had a very productive morning, considering they fought the linear guild (twice kinda!), navigated Girards pyramid, destroyed the gate, survived Zykon and Reddie, and then fought Mr. Sandman.

If anything, V is super useful right now, a lot in part because the Order has to be worn out as heck right now simply because they have already done so much.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Erm - Constantine maybe? Keanu was going to heaven and the devil was none too pleased. I don't think it was cancer, but I could easily be wrong.

He had lung cancer, from smoking two packs a day since he was sixteen. You actually see this in Peter Stormare's hands there at the end of the hospital scene.

[Oko and Qailee]

actually, pretty much it means exactly that.

thats also why V had a benchwarming session, as well as 2 more in reserve.

No, V returning isn't a Deus Ex Machina, a Deus Ex Machina is more made up on the spot.

If anything this is more of a "bringing in the cavalry" or an extremely non-subtle "Chekovs gun".

It would be a Deus Ex Machina if we ave never heard of V before

[Forikroder]

IDK, Roy has done A lot, and the party beat a ~CR12 Sand Elemental.

TBH if t wasnt for the archers, the Elemental would be a tougher fight than Tarquins entire army.

Think of it like this, Roy probably has 100+HP, for every round he'll kill 8 mooks and of those 8 mooks there is only a 34% chance he'll get hit AT ALL, when he does get hit, it will be for ~10dmg.

That doesn't even factor in the concealment Belkar is creating.

That means, that it's going to take 30+ rounds to take Roy alone down, 60+ due to the concealment, that means Roy, assuming no healing, is going to easily kill 480+ mooks.

Now, add in Durkon, who is immune to the Mook dmg essentially, the devil, the soldiers turning sides...

Don't get me wrong, V showing up is very good for The Order. But don't discredit them, Roy has had a very productive morning, considering they fought the linear guild (twice kinda!), navigated Girards pyramid, destroyed the gate, survived Zykon and Reddie, and then fought Mr. Sandman.

If anything, V is super useful right now, a lot in part because the Order has to be worn out as heck right now simply because they have already done so much.

they fought the linear guild but the first time Tarquin alone forced them to retreat and the second time they forced them to retreat only thanks to Durkons spells

navigating Girards pyramid wasnt an accomplishment with all the spells guarding it gone

surviving Xykon and REddie wasnt an accomplishment since Xykon and REddie left immediately

and the sandman was a summoned ellemental it wasnt supposed to be a challenge

[Jay R]

But, at the end of the day, it means jack and squat when facing a semi prepared group.

Yeah, but these guys are facing the Order of the Stick.

Personally, I'm expecting a plotwise solution to Tarquin and Co.

It's been raised, but... as soon as the question of "why?" is raised amongst them, Tarquin will be hard pressed to rationalize this to his allies.

This has no tangible benefit to their business...
<snip>
Having this whole thing unravel on him, upsetting his carefully crafted plot and the functions therein would be just about as good as seeing him bite it. Not to mention more realistic at this point.

Maybe Myron and Laurin will decide that they've let him be the figurehead long enough, kill him, and find somebody else to be the warlord who thinks he's in charge of their plan to rule the continent through three empires.

[Oko and Qailee]

they fought the linear guild but the first time Tarquin alone forced them to retreat and the second time they forced them to retreat only thanks to Durkons spells

navigating Girards pyramid wasnt an accomplishment with all the spells guarding it gone

surviving Xykon and REddie wasnt an accomplishment since Xykon and REddie left immediately

and the sandman was a summoned ellemental it wasnt supposed to be a challenge

All of that though is more important plot wise and powerwise than fireballing 40mooks. The Linear guild the second time in the hallway alone would have been a much harder encounter than these mooks, but The Order prepared for it and won pretty decisively.

I'm not debating those fights weren't as hard as they could be, but I just simply don't agree that V has been the useful party member today so far.

[maximus25]

V shows up and wins the encounter, just like a true wizard.

We don't even need the rest of the Order.