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2013-09-18, 06:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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2013-09-18, 06:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
Re: OOTS #919 - The Discussion Thread
Obviously this is just another of Draketooth's illusions and Nale and Z are still alive, Durkon isn't a vampire and Malack is still his leechy self. There is no battle.
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2013-09-18, 06:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #919 - The Discussion Thread
No, I'm pretty sure I do.
If you look carefully at the post you're quoting, you'll notice that I point out that any low level mook targeted by a high level adventurer has virtually no realistic chance of survival. The point your post was trying to prove was exactly that and added little.
The point I was actually making was that any extra level provides them with a higher attack bonus, possible feats to take for hitting harder/more frequently, likely access to better weapons, and potential ability score increases (if at level 4). An archer mook in this encounter with Blind Fight as a feat would easily cut through that concealment and have a much better (if still poor) chance of hitting their AC. Every bonus and advantage matters, especially if the army is largely identical because then you can extrapolate small bonuses across hundreds of soldiers, making a very real difference. Roy needs every advantage he can get right now, and conversely needs to deny every bonus he can for his opponents. This is a battle of attrition, Roy can take down a dozen or more minions but he'll still likely get hurt at some point in the process.
The only adventurers right now who really faces no threat from the horde of minions are Durkon, unless Tarquin & co. decide to enter the fray, and Elan, who is only kept safe by the whims of Tarquin.
EDIT: Dangit, looked up the Blind Fight feat and it only works for melee. Still, without that example the point stands that any relevant combat feats the army could have taken results in an immense threat for the Order.
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2013-09-18, 07:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2013
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- Italy weird enchanted
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2013-09-18, 07:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2013
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Re: OOTS #919 - The Discussion Thread
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2013-09-18, 07:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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2013-09-18, 07:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2013
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Re: OOTS #919 - The Discussion Thread
Here you go, right in the first post of this thread.
And I like your new avatar.Post, post, post, post an amusing and insightful comment!
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2013-09-18, 07:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2011
Re: OOTS #919 - The Discussion Thread
Mmm granted, we don't know the exact Order's AC, but I fail to see how having a +4 or so attack bonus would help.
- Roy's AC is probably in the mid 20s making such bonus irrelevant. Besides, any attack bonus is irelevant if you lose initiative, although I guess you could make a case about Improved Initiative being useful there.
- V has stoneskin, so standard shoots are going to do little.
- Spiky has DR 10 IIRC, so again, not much use in that bonus.
- Durkon has way too high AC, DR, inmunity to crits and all in all, can not be hurt at all.
OK, that leaves Haley and Belkar as potentially vulnerable. Then again, Haley has at least +5 DEX and a +5 leather, plus whatever protective jewelry she has, so, again, barely in reach for a low level.
Mind you, the soldiers riding dinosaurs are probably of higher level, and the dinos themselves are certainly not CR1. But, at the end of the day, it means jack and squat when facing a semi prepared group.
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2013-09-18, 08:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #919 - The Discussion Thread
I don't know if initiative is a big deal anymore since the encounter started maybe a dozen rounds ago.
We can go by rules mathematics, even if that means little for the plot of this comic. If these guys have a decent Str/Dex of 14-16, then being level 2 gives them an attack bonus of +4-5 without quality weapons or relevant feats on top of that bonus. If Haley and Roy have an AC in the mid-twenties, then it wouldn't take much more for the minions to be able to hit on a 19. And hitting on anything other than a natural 20 is where those bonuses start to matter.
V's stoneskin is a great start, although it does technically run out after absorbing 150 points of damage. So if (and this is an admittedly a weaker argument) Tarquin says "Take down the spellcaster with concentrated fire!" then in a few rounds that spell is gone and we don't know how many times V has it prepared.
Yup, I already pointed out Durkon is immune to the horde. And Spiky, as summoned by Durkon, has a DR that doesn't run out like V's although he doesn't have fast healing and is subject to critical hits, meaning he can still accumulate damage (very) slowly.
But, I don't care about Spiky's well-being. I'm mostly concerned about Roy because he seems to be the one that Tarquin actually wants dead. In his mind, Roy is preventing Elan from being the leader of the group. And Roy has demonstrated that he can be hit many times in this fight and is in real danger of dying.
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2013-09-18, 08:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2012
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Re: OOTS #919 - The Discussion Thread
Personally, I'm expecting a plotwise solution to Tarquin and Co.
It's been raised, but... as soon as the question of "why?" is raised amongst them, Tarquin will be hard pressed to rationalize this to his allies.
This has no tangible benefit to their business. They're throwing away soldiers and resources on a purely personal matter of Tarquin's, not to mention it's very clear they've already had to put up with this kind of BS once before with Nale. Tarquin stands there trying to play daddy while dragging his associates into the mix and having nothing to offer on their behalf.
Playing around in an adventure party with the Linear Guild is one thing, but now they're burning dozens of men and thousands of gold in resources all for Tarquin's plot fetish. Oh, wait, playing around with the Linear Guild got Malack wacked, so even there Tarquin's shenanigans aren't of trivial cost.
Having this whole thing unravel on him, upsetting his carefully crafted plot and the functions therein would be just about as good as seeing him bite it. Not to mention more realistic at this point.
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2013-09-18, 08:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
Re: OOTS #919 - The Discussion Thread
"Wait - I know that smell..."
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2013-09-18, 08:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #919 - The Discussion Thread
Having this whole thing unravel on him, upsetting his carefully crafted plot and the functions therein would be just about as good as seeing him bite it. Not to mention more realistic at this point.
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2013-09-18, 08:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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2013-09-18, 08:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #919 - The Discussion Thread
VAARSUVIUS! YEAH!
NOW we'll see who's keeping the protagonist from his journey, TARQUIN!http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...6#post15476516
I know I'm stealing this from someone else. But it's SO FUNNY
Zweisteine quoting Razanir:
"I am a human sixtyfourthling! Fear my minimal halfling ancestry!"
From: Razanir
Bagnold could be one sixty-fourth halfling.
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2013-09-18, 08:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2013
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Re: OOTS #919 - The Discussion Thread
Ahh... Wizards...
Vaarsuvius, licence to Deus Ex Machina.
Well this answers the many questions and affirms The Giant's stance on V. Great comic anyhow, I just have no idea what's going to happen next, one of the many things I love about this comic.Avatar by Kris On a Stick.
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2013-09-18, 08:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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2013-09-18, 08:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2011
Re: OOTS #919 - The Discussion Thread
Uh, uh, I don't know about you, but in my games, each round is resolved by initiative. If your soldiers lose the initiative, and the guy in front grinds them in a single attack, well, that was it.
We can go by rules mathematics, even if that means little for the plot of this comic. If these guys have a decent Str/Dex of 14-16, then being level 2 gives them an attack bonus of +4-5 without quality weapons or relevant feats on top of that bonus. If Haley and Roy have an AC in the mid-twenties, then it wouldn't take much more for the minions to be able to hit on a 19. And hitting on anything other than a natural 20 is where those bonuses start to matter.
V's stoneskin is a great start, although it does technically run out after absorbing 150 points of damage. So if (and this is an admittedly a weaker argument) Tarquin says "Take down the spellcaster with concentrated fire!" then in a few rounds that spell is gone and we don't know how many times V has it prepared.
And when the stoneskin wears away, V flys out of range, or goes invisible, or casts protection from arrows, or the Giant knows what. And then they realize the whole group is in melee and if they want to shoot, they are simply going to cause Friendly fire.
I dunno, I guess we have very different interpretation of the D&D rules.
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2013-09-18, 08:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: OOTS #919 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by toapat; 2013-09-18 at 09:00 AM.
My Homebrew: found here.
When you Absolutely, Positively, Gotta Drop some Huge rocks, Accept NO Substitutes
PM Me if you would like a table from my homebrew reconstructed.
Drow avatar @ myself
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2013-09-18, 09:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
Re: OOTS #919 - The Discussion Thread
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2013-09-18, 09:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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2013-09-18, 09:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2005
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- McKinney, Texas
Re: OOTS #919 - The Discussion Thread
That is the nature of spellcasters. Especially HIGH level one. When you have a competent spellcaster in your party, it makes a BIG difference.
This is why you don't want too many spellcaster in a party. Prior to 4.0, spellcasters are physically weaker and have to rest/regain spells. This makes them vulnerable and thus need none spellcasters to keep them safe. They are your typical "Glass cannon" but after 4.0, there are at-will powers which allow spellcasters to cast all day (granted the big spells are encounter/daily but at-will are still nice)Chibi rules.
Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional.
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2013-09-18, 09:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #919 - The Discussion Thread
Okay, so you play it that way, I think it's a listed variant. Makes for more dynamic battles, however it's more time consuming on already time consuming battles.
Fair point, I forgot about the standard array. Although, I intentionally low-balled the levels of the army. I wouldn't be surprised if Tarquin has large groups of level 2-4 soldiers, making up for that difference in attack rolls.
Well, yeah, I pointed out this was the weakest point in my argument. But even then, we still don't know just how many minions they're fighting. That cluster V took out in panel 5 isn't even shown in panel 7.
The first two options would be repeating the mistake V made during the battle of Azure City. I don't think V wants that guilt in his/her shoulders again. The third has just been cast on Belkar. Maybe V prepared more, but I care less about V or Belkar's well-being than I do about Roy's in this situation, since he's the primary target.
Since we've established mathematically and plot-wise that over many rounds of combat Roy can take damage from hordes of opponents, he is threatened. If the soldier's start fighting Haley or Elan, they're legitimately threatened as well. It's a matter of how many minions they're fighting and how powerful those minions are that would determine whether or not members of the Order will die.
Indeed.
However, since the original premise of this debate was on the theoretical danger extra levels on these minions would pose, it holds little relevance to the comic itself. If you would like to discuss this further with me, you can PM me or start a thread somewhere. But right here, I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall made out of pointless rules pedantry.
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2013-09-18, 09:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
Re: OOTS #919 - The Discussion Thread
Reunited, and it feels so good! Love the last panel!
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2013-09-18, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
Re: OOTS #919 - The Discussion Thread
IDK, Roy has done A lot, and the party beat a ~CR12 Sand Elemental.
TBH if t wasnt for the archers, the Elemental would be a tougher fight than Tarquins entire army.
Think of it like this, Roy probably has 100+HP, for every round he'll kill 8 mooks and of those 8 mooks there is only a 34% chance he'll get hit AT ALL, when he does get hit, it will be for ~10dmg.
That doesn't even factor in the concealment Belkar is creating.
That means, that it's going to take 30+ rounds to take Roy alone down, 60+ due to the concealment, that means Roy, assuming no healing, is going to easily kill 480+ mooks.
Now, add in Durkon, who is immune to the Mook dmg essentially, the devil, the soldiers turning sides...
Don't get me wrong, V showing up is very good for The Order. But don't discredit them, Roy has had a very productive morning, considering they fought the linear guild (twice kinda!), navigated Girards pyramid, destroyed the gate, survived Zykon and Reddie, and then fought Mr. Sandman.
If anything, V is super useful right now, a lot in part because the Order has to be worn out as heck right now simply because they have already done so much.
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2013-09-18, 09:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
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2013-09-18, 09:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
Re: OOTS #919 - The Discussion Thread
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2013-09-18, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
Re: OOTS #919 - The Discussion Thread
they fought the linear guild but the first time Tarquin alone forced them to retreat and the second time they forced them to retreat only thanks to Durkons spells
navigating Girards pyramid wasnt an accomplishment with all the spells guarding it gone
surviving Xykon and REddie wasnt an accomplishment since Xykon and REddie left immediately
and the sandman was a summoned ellemental it wasnt supposed to be a challenge
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2013-09-18, 10:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #919 - The Discussion Thread
Yeah, but these guys are facing the Order of the Stick.
Maybe Myron and Laurin will decide that they've let him be the figurehead long enough, kill him, and find somebody else to be the warlord who thinks he's in charge of their plan to rule the continent through three empires.
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2013-09-18, 10:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2013
Re: OOTS #919 - The Discussion Thread
All of that though is more important plot wise and powerwise than fireballing 40mooks. The Linear guild the second time in the hallway alone would have been a much harder encounter than these mooks, but The Order prepared for it and won pretty decisively.
I'm not debating those fights weren't as hard as they could be, but I just simply don't agree that V has been the useful party member today so far.
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2013-09-18, 10:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
Re: OOTS #919 - The Discussion Thread
V shows up and wins the encounter, just like a true wizard.
We don't even need the rest of the Order.