OOTS #1302 - The Discussion Thread

[BriarHobbit]

This is quite a wonderful fight. I would not count Calder out quite yet. I am curious if Calder is psionic. That would explain how he could control Sunny while his body was in stasis.

[jokem]

Considering the state of V last page vs this one, if it's not a Heal, that's only because the Heal wasn't enough and they needed a Cure on top.

Wizards do not have a lot of hit points, so maybe a Heal was plenty.

[danielxcutter]

i'd imagine wyrm age? he's as big as the ancient black dragon that fought V, but he looks older.

Red dragons get bigger faster than black dragons. I imagine that he's adult or old category with some Mindbender levels.

[Peelee]

Red dragons get bigger faster than black dragons. I imagine that he's adult or old category with some Mindbender levels.

And goblins and sylphs are Small sized. I don't think "strict absolute adherence to the growth rates of different dragon species" is going to be on my OotS bingo card.

[danielxcutter]

Well that's my headcanon, I'm not exactly going to send the Pinkertons at anyone who has a different one. *shrug*

[woweedd]

Bit of a short one, but heh, it really is great seeing how competent this squabbling band of quirky idiots have become over the years. Seriously, this is just badass, they are a well-oiled machine.

[Provengreil]

but can he cast some Heal? I don't know where to find these stats

He has cast the heal spell on panel before.

[danielxcutter]

Heal is a 6th-level spell, and Durkon's been casting 7th and 8th-level spells for quite some time. I'm not sure if he still has 8th-level slots considering he lost two levels in a row from being rezzed but he should still be very much able to cast Heal.

[Crusher]

Heal.

Better known as "Cleric's Feather Fall".

[woweedd]

I guess that's mechanically one of the things that annoyed me about D&D in the 5E campaign I've played, that a big bad opponent like Calder can basically shrug off any status effects they want, and no matter who it is, they fight at top capacity right up until they lose their last hit point and suddenly drop. Like unless you metaphorically pull teeth to find out, there's no way to tell how close or far you are from taking out some big threatening opponent until the fight is completely done.

Besides, he's a dragon, not a god. A dragon, IMO, shouldn't have stats that rival the avatar of a deity, no matter how old and nasty they get.

At the very least, Calder should have suffered some kind of lasting injury from having a creature as big as himself instantly returning to that size inside of his mouth. It should have destroyed his jaw and left him unable to speak and bite at a minimum, and thus made him less of a threat. Instead, it's like there was zero effect whatsoever, because the plot said so.

Good news! That goes both ways. After all, just as a big bad foe can keep fighting at peak performance until they drop dead, same applies to the PCs: Can you imagine how annoying it would be if losing hit points made you substantially weaker? An early setback would mean an inevitable defeat, and whichever side got advantage early would keep it the entire fight, no come-from-behind victories. Sounds frustrating. Just a matter of fairness: Your characters can still fight and run and all that just as good at 1 HP as they could at 100, why shouldn't the bosses get the same luxury?

[wilphe]

And goblins and sylphs are Small sized. I don't think "strict absolute adherence to the growth rates of different dragon species" is going to be on my OotS bingo card.

Aren't goblins established as medium in OOTS?

Don't know about Celia but she's always looked and acted medium

[woweedd]

Aren't goblins established as medium in OOTS?

Don't know about Celia but she's always looked and acted medium

Yes, that is the point Peelee is making IE Rich has alwalys played a bit fast-and-loose with by-the-book sizes.

[Syncrogti]

That dragon has an overdeveloped sense of ego. It's going to get him into trouble some day.

You have six fingers on your right hand. Someone was looking for you.

[Psyren]

This is quite a wonderful fight. I would not count Calder out quite yet. I am curious if Calder is psionic. That would explain how he could control Sunny while his body was in stasis.

I wouldn't count him out at all.

Spoiler: Themes and Prediction

Show

A central theme to this entire story - and D&D as a whole for that matter - has been "we can accomplish far more by working together, despite our diverse perspectives and backgrounds, than we ever could alone, and everyone's earnest contributions matter." We've seen this feature in every book (most recently in Utterly Dwarfed). This is also why Serini's idea of tricking her own party into cooperating resulted in the most powerful gate defense by far and the only one that actually held Team Evil off for a decent amount of time.

But Serini still has a flaw to overcome - well, several, but I'll focus on this one - i.e. not thinking that Soon's contribution mattered. (More Soon's fault than hers, but still.) If the gang beats Calder without the paladins even getting involved, she'll have been proven right to think that, and it will undermine this core theme of the story. (Not to mention wasting perfectly good setup.)

[littlebum2002]

Don't know about Celia but she's always looked and acted medium

Yeah Roy points that out here

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0617.html

[Doug Lampert]

Good news! That goes both ways. After all, just as a big bad foe can keep fighting at peak performance until they drop dead, same applies to the PCs: Can you imagine how annoying it would be if losing hit points made you substantially weaker? An early setback would mean an inevitable defeat, and whichever side got advantage early would keep it the entire fight, no come-from-behind victories. Sounds frustrating. Just a matter of fairness: Your characters can still fight and run and all that just as good at 1 HP as they could at 100, why shouldn't the bosses get the same luxury?

Also: About 25 years ago I saw a prolonged internet discussion about wound effects.

One side said, "Wounds that don't drop you from shock have no significant effect in the combat where you are wounded, because adrenaline is a wonderful thing", that side had lots of studies by the defense department, FBI data, and historical data like why the US Army swapped to the .45 pistol in 1911.

The other side said, "Of course wounds impair you" and had lots of frantic hand waving and no actual evidence whatsoever. Nor could anyone on that side find any evidence despite looking, nor any anecdotal examples other than fiction. It simply did not exist.

If you are wounded, but still in the fight where you were wounded and still fighting at all, then you are close enough to full efficiency that any impairment isn't worth representing in game. Wound impairment is not, in fact, realistic. It is a "realism" rule people add to some systems that makes the game both less fun and actually makes it less realistic. There are lots of things that are unrealistic about HP (wounds aren't cummulative that way, and long term effect and mortality isn't all that closely related to whether or not you go into shock, and serious wounds don't heal as fast as they do in D&D land), but lack of wound penalties is something they got right.

Edited to add: Just because a rule is unrealistic does not make it bad. The various unrealistic aspects of HP (simple, cumulative, and fast healing with no long term effects) are mostly good for the game.

[KorvinStarmast]

As Dan Jenkins once said: "You've gotta play hurt."

[Peelee]

Spoiler: Themes and Prediction

Show

A central theme to this entire story - and D&D as a whole for that matter - has been "we can accomplish far more by working together, despite our diverse perspectives and backgrounds, than we ever could alone, and everyone's earnest contributions matter."

Without putting too fine a point on it, that's how i expect the goblin problem to be resolved in the story, but I wanted to make a specific note that i absolutely love how you put it.

[matador]

He has cast the heal spell on panel before.

Not the only time, either: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0873.html

[Psyren]

Without putting too fine a point on it, that's how i expect the goblin problem to be resolved in the story, but I wanted to make a specific note that i absolutely love how you put it.

It's definitely a theme I can see the Giant (and any similarly-versed DM) resonating with. And agreed, both the Goblins and even the Gods are yet more examples of its power. It's teamwork all the way down.

In addition, Soon's contribution has already been even more effective than anyone is giving him credit for:

Spoiler

Show

His faith in Paladins established the institution that empowered and reinforced a good man like O-Chul, who is directly responsible for just about everything good the MitD has or will do in this story. Without him, the Order would have already lost, and we don't even know what MitD is going to do to save the day now in future.

[Quizatzhaderac]

"Hell, the dwarf..." Actually, Hell was the human shaped goddess who created the vampire dwarf, who doesn't have a proper name, much like Frankenstein's monster.

Y'know what, Belkar's right, that is a pretty weaksauce villain speech.

90% of a good villain speech is timing, you want a moment of power, or even better, turnaround. Which is why Thog has a great villain speech (last row), despite barely being verbal.

This. Calder just practically had his face broken by an instantaneous size-change inside his mouth. He should at the very least be barely able to speak and unable to bite and possibly breathe fire, and now it looks like he just took a dagger straight to the eye (or eye socket).

I was kind of assuming he has a snake-like jaw that's supposed to be able to open to a huge angle.

"The bard's dad had some good ones too"

"Just how many of you are villains or related to one?!"

I am... the good guy here?

[bunsen_h]

On the plus side, I'm impressed by Bloodfeast's durability. He(?) should be down by now, then again maybe there have been defensive buffs and potions applied somehow prior to the fight.

He would, at least, have had the benefit of all "Mass Protection From" spells cast on the party.

Durkon. Honey.

Durkula's oratory comes from copying you, and you heroic-speeched him into obliterating his personality.

Take the compliment, you're just good at speeches, period.

I'm reminded of Miles Vorkosigan's thought about his father in A Civil Campaign. "Miles paused in momentary admiration of his father's ability to deliver lines like that. It put him in mind of the way a combat drop shuttle delivered pinpoint incendiaries." And Miles himself is no slouch at oratory... even not counting his babbling while on fast penta.

That dragon has an overdeveloped sense of ego. It's going to get him into trouble some day.

: "My name is Roy Greenhilt! You killed my father's mentor! Prepare to... become un-undead!"
: "Whatever, Redsword. Why don't you come back later when —"
: "My name is Roy Greenhilt! You killed my father's mentor! Prepare to become un-undead!"
: "Look, kid, you're just not in my —"
: "My name is Roy Greenhilt! You killed my father's mentor! Prepare to become un-undead!"
: "You know, you're kind of monotonous?"

You are a bad person who does bad things. Just letting you know, puns like that are evil.

I'd missed that. Thank you. Catcher in the Rye was on my parents' bookshelf, and I recall having skimmed it when I was a teenager because I'd heard that it was racy, but found it uninteresting.

[Peelee]

"Hell, the dwarf..." Actually, Hell was the human shaped goddess who created the vampire dwarf, who doesn't have a proper name, much like Frankenstein's monster.

Actually, Hell is a plane consisting of nine levels which serves as the Lawful Evil afterlife and whose inhabitants are locked into an eternal Blood War with the denizens of the Infinite Layers of the Abyss.

Hel is who you're thinking of.

I'd missed that. Thank you. Catcher in the Rye was on my parents' bookshelf, and I recall having skimmed it when I was a teenager because I'd heard that it was racy, but found it uninteresting.

Then with the knowledge of that pun, you might appreciate my response to it better as well:

No worries, it's incredibly overrated anyway.

[Taragorn]

*glares at Calder and taps watch*

We'll need at least 3 more strips for Calder to gain the upper hand somehow (or threaten a major character's life), things to look briefly bleak, and then the paladins swoop in for the elaborate turnaround that convinces Serini that they have the snuff.



So, a dragon then

(Okay, even for his kind Calder has a bit of a complex.)

Maybe... She could just as likely realize that she beat Calder, and got curbstomped by Xykon. She may not think beating Calder is the same league.

[danielxcutter]

Well, it did take the entire Order of the Scribble to take him and his cult down. He doesn't have any mind-controlled cultists here, true, but he's still not exactly a pushover on his own.

And we know she's got a lot of self-loathing and is probably rationalizing the OotS beating her as far less an accomplishment than it really is. (Although admittedly they didn't quite beat her in a straight fight.) Defeating Calder on the other hand is something she might consider more impressive.

[Taragorn]

Well, it did take the entire Order of the Scribble to take him and his cult down. He doesn't have any mind-controlled cultists here, true, but he's still not exactly a pushover on his own.

And we know she's got a lot of self-loathing and is probably rationalizing the OotS beating her as far less an accomplishment than it really is. (Although admittedly they didn't quite beat her in a straight fight.) Defeating Calder on the other hand is something she might consider more impressive.

Yeah that was Calder plus the whole cult though. Also she was able to move him into the tomb and maintain his bondage for decades. That's the kind of thing that makes you start to think of something as "not a problem" Plus, Roy and Belkar are actively dismissing him as a mere obstacle to Xykon. Yeah Calder is arguing pretty hard against that now, so it could go either way.

[danielxcutter]

I would expect that one of the casters helped to move him here after he got stuck in the stasis field though. Or Serini just built the dungeon around him. Remember, Calder had already surrendered at that point, so it only would have really required the right spell to seal him in it.

[Psyren]

Maybe... She could just as likely realize that she beat Calder, and got curbstomped by Xykon. She may not think beating Calder is the same league.

She didn't beat Calder, her whole team did. I'm not even sure he's part of the defenses really (how would she seal him up again alone, when he's not a volunteer?) If freed, why wouldn't he just rampage through the complex and smash up all her other defenses trying to find a way out? It seems like this was just the ideal place to store him once he surrendered, and it was supposed to be true stasis except lol SR.

[Crusher]

Good news! That goes both ways. After all, just as a big bad foe can keep fighting at peak performance until they drop dead, same applies to the PCs: Can you imagine how annoying it would be if losing hit points made you substantially weaker? An early setback would mean an inevitable defeat, and whichever side got advantage early would keep it the entire fight, no come-from-behind victories. Sounds frustrating. Just a matter of fairness: Your characters can still fight and run and all that just as good at 1 HP as they could at 100, why shouldn't the bosses get the same luxury?

As an aside, this is exactly how monsters worked in combat in the class but now largely forgotten Tunnels and Trolls. Once you got the advantage, you were almost assured of victory (and you'd take minimal additional damage doing it). But PCs didn't work that way. They were a lot more fragile but their capabilities were much less affected by taking damage.

So, the way fights generally worked was the monsters started out a lot stronger than the PCs. The PCs then tried desperately to hang on, blowing resources (poisoned weapons were a big thing, plus spells and anything else you had) at the start to whittle the monsters down to the point it was an even fight. After that, as long as the PCs were still standing, they could generally wrap things up via attrition. Fights started scary, but all the excitement was over quickly as you'd either lost or it became boring within a couple rounds, and then you'd have 4-6 boring rounds to go of just mopping up.

[Pearstriker]

Poor Calder, he thinks he's the last boss, but he's very clearly shaping up to be the mid dungeon boss that burns resources ahead of the last boss.

Loving the little details throughout the comic- Minrah playing combat medic with Bloodfeast, Serini actually fighting a non hero. Very nice to see :p

As an aside, is anyone else getting worried for Bloodfeast?

The doors look too small for him to get out of this room, and if Xykon and Co. show up while Sunny is out, the Order might end up walled off.

But Bloodfeast might be too big for a wall of force to contain, and Redcloak said something about monsters that Lawbot couldn't contain...