[Path of War] How exactly do Scarlet Throne maneuvers multiply damage?

[Ignimortis]

Basically, title. For instance, there's Rising Zenith Strike:

The disciple makes a Sense Motive check in place of his normal attack roll (he may add any enhancement bonus from his weapon or feats that apply from the use of his weapon to this Sense Motive check as well), and if this Sense Motive check equals or exceeds the target’s armor class, the attack deals double damage. If this check does not meet or exceed the target’s armor class, then the attack fails and the disciple misses.

So what does this actually do? Does it just multiply base attack damage (dice+ability mod+enhancement) like a crit, or does it work with all the extra damage you can have on a strike? Does it double the damage bonus from something like Noble Blade?

The disciple may add a +5 insight bonus to his attack roll and +2d8 insight bonus to his damage roll on a single melee attack made during this turn.

Can you multiply other on-hit damage effects with that? Weapon enchantments like Flaming, or abilities like Stalker's Deadly Strike (which do not get multiplied on crit, same as Noble Blade's boost)?
This is kind of important to how good these are or aren't, because if they do multiply damage in that way, well, there's obscene damage to be had with it. If it basically does a x2 crit on demand, but all the other effects aren't doubled, then it loses a lot of its luster, but it's a lot more balanced against other maneuvers.

Edit: And can it crit? I assume that if it can, then it crits per normal multiplication rules, i.e. it gets x(4+crit mult-1) damage rather than x4x(crit mult).

[Rynjin]

It just multiplies the damage result, which falls under the normal rules on multiplying damage. Extra Damage Dice are NEVER MULTIPLIED, not just "not multiplied on a crit.

Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.

Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.

Eg. if you're swinging a +3 Flaming weapon you're going to roll like 1d8+16+1d6. You add up the normal damage die (1d8) and the static damage (16) for around 22 damage, and then double it to 44. Then add 1d6 (~3 damage) for a total of 47.

In the case of crits, including Scarlet Throne's "forced crits", the second clause of the above quote comes into play.

You multiply the UNMODIFIED damage of 22 and add it to the multiplications separately. Eg. if you use Ruby Zenith Strike (x3 damage) and it also crits with a Scythe (x4 damage) you take the 22 damage x3 (66) and add it to 22 damage x 4 (88) for a total of 154, NOT a total of 264 (66x4).

[Ignimortis]

It just multiplies the damage result, which falls under the normal rules on multiplying damage. Extra Damage Dice are NEVER MULTIPLIED, not just "not multiplied on a crit.

Eg. if you're swinging a +3 Flaming weapon you're going to roll like 1d8+16+1d6. You add up the normal damage die (1d8) and the static damage (16) for around 22 damage, and then double it to 44. Then add 1d6 (~3 damage) for a total of 47.

In the case of crits, including Scarlet Throne's "forced crits", the second clause of the above quote comes into play.

You multiply the UNMODIFIED damage of 22 and add it to the multiplications separately. Eg. if you use Ruby Zenith Strike (x3 damage) and it also crits with a Scythe (x4 damage) you take the 22 damage x3 (66) and add it to 22 damage x 4 (88) for a total of 154, NOT a total of 264 (66x4).

Right, that makes sense. Ran some non-past-midnight basic math and it seems that it'll still be decent enough even on a DEX build which doesn't get to use Power Attack or STR multipliers to 2H weapons (Descending Sunset gives an x4, and with a cheap-ish +10 Sense Motive ring, I ought to be hitting with it all the time, for maybe (1d10+15)x4+2d6 or something, which isn't great, but also isn't terrible for an autohit standard, and if it crits, that's another +1 to the multiplier). Though it also means that I'll probably be abandoning most of the damage-focused Boosts, because they don't really add enough to bother with.

[Rynjin]

Well, even Dex builds can usually fit in 13 Str for Power Attack, as it's usually worth it on full BaB characters. But even without that, I'd look into some of the other Disciplines with meatier flat damage boosts. Steel Serpent has Night's Knife which essentially lets you add your level to the damage, which is nice. There's a few "Make a skill check, add the result to your damage" Boosts running around too IIRC.

Anything that adds flat damage like that instead of damage dice WILL just be multiplied.

[Ignimortis]

Running a PB20 Stalker, so neither full-BAB (and I'm already feeling the effects of it at level 7, at 17 it's gonna be even worse) nor able to fit any STR over 10.

Night's Knife, however...this is a Heal-heavy character, so adding 17 damage to multiply it to 68 does sound like a very good deal for a level 3 maneuver. Can't be combo'd with Dual Strike, but that just means I do an opening salvo with Dual Strike (Mithral Wave, Heavenly Blade) and clean up with Night's Knife+Descending Sunset, possibly in a single turn with God of the Hourglass stance. Should be doing over 300 damage with that without crits or MW proccing silver vuln, so enough for my purposes.

Hmmmm. Wait, does Heavenly Blade get multiplied on crit since it's a flat damage bonus? So if I crit (which, with a Keen Critical Edge Katana, shouldn't be rare), does it just do +200 damage? Because that really puts "single-stroke" into my iaijutsu schtick.

[glass]

Hmmmm. Wait, does Heavenly Blade get multiplied on crit since it's a flat damage bonus? So if I crit (which, with a Keen Critical Edge Katana, shouldn't be rare), does it just do +200 damage? Because that really puts "single-stroke" into my iaijutsu schtick.

Usually, flat adds get multiplied like anything else.

Some flat damage bonuses specify that they don't get multiplied on a crit (but as far as I know usually lack the more general prohibition on multiplying that extra dice have), so by RAW they would still be multiplied for non crit reasons. However, I would be inclined to consider than an oversight and houserule that anything not multiplied on a crit is not multiplied by double-damage strikes either.

[Ignimortis]

Usually, flat adds get multiplied like anything else.

Some flat damage bonuses specify that they don't get multiplied on a crit (but as far as I know usually lack the more general prohibition on multiplying that extra dice have), so by RAW they would still be multiplied for non crit reasons. However, I would be inclined to consider than an oversight and houserule that anything not multiplied on a crit is not multiplied by double-damage strikes either.

Nevermind, I checked, and there's a special provision for that specifically in the maneuver rules:

You can make a critical hit with a strike, but you do not multiply extra damage from a strike when calculating the critical hit damage. It is treated just as extra damage from another special ability would be (like deadly strike damage or damage from a flaming weapon).

Which limits my damage potential quite a bit, although if I push, I might still cross the 300 damage per turn line if I drop everything I have and resort to spending the next turn in recovery.

No such thing is mentioned for boosts, however, so Descending Sunset Strike plus Night's Knife does have good potential for damage and is easy to hit with.

[ciopo]

You multiply the UNMODIFIED damage of 22 and add it to the multiplications separately. Eg. if you use Ruby Zenith Strike (x3 damage) and it also crits with a Scythe (x4 damage) you take the 22 damage x3 (66) and add it to 22 damage x 4 (88) for a total of 154, NOT a total of 264 (66x4).

I think a x4 and x3 results in a total multiplire x6, not a x7, otherwise you're counting the base "x1" unmultiplied damage twice
two x2 is a x3 , because you're adding the multipliers, minus 1 each, plus 1 final
or in other words, when you have multiple multipliers, deduce one from each of them, add them together, then add 1 (the "base" damage)