Is Dragon's Breath as good as it looks?

[Chronos]

My next character will be a wizard (starting at level 3), and I'm looking at spells. Dragon's Breath looks really good, especially when cast on a familiar: Is there something I'm missing? Over the course of three rounds, that's 9d6 damage, in an area, for the cost of a 2nd-level spell slot and a bonus action. Plus, it's a selectable damage type, for those times when you really need to get past an immunity, or take advantage of a vulnerability, or something.

Granted, it'll make the familiar a target, but a flying familiar can just stay out of melee range, keeping it safe from many enemies, and a spider or something can hang out underneath my robe (or underneath an ally's armor), climb out to breathe, and climb back in. And it is concentration, which will probably become a lot more relevant later, but right now, it looks likely to be the best thing I could spend concentration on.

Is it really this good in actual play? Did they forget about familiars when they wrote it, and using up allies' actions was supposed to be the balancing factor?

[LudicSavant]

My next character will be a wizard (starting at level 3), and I'm looking at spells. Dragon's Breath looks really good, especially when cast on a familiar: Is there something I'm missing? Over the course of three rounds, that's 9d6 damage, in an area, for the cost of a 2nd-level spell slot and a bonus action. Plus, it's a selectable damage type, for those times when you really need to get past an immunity, or take advantage of a vulnerability, or something.

Granted, it'll make the familiar a target, but a flying familiar can just stay out of melee range, keeping it safe from many enemies, and a spider or something can hang out underneath my robe (or underneath an ally's armor), climb out to breathe, and climb back in. And it is concentration, which will probably become a lot more relevant later, but right now, it looks likely to be the best thing I could spend concentration on.

Is it really this good in actual play? Did they forget about familiars when they wrote it, and using up allies' actions was supposed to be the balancing factor?

It's about as good as you've evaluated, save that the 'familiar under the robe' thing may not actually work.

At least when playing on a grid, whether or not you get cover is technically determined by whether a line can be drawn to the corner of your space, rather than to the actual dimensions of your body. This prevents many 'bedsheet = full cover' style shenanigans. Aside from RAW technicalities, a DM just may not consider a piece of cloth to be sufficient to protect a familiar from the rigors of battle.

But aside from that? Sure, you can throw it on a familiar and have them do aerial strafing attacks and attempt to fly them to a safe position afterwards.

[kingcheesepants]

At second level Dragon's Breath competes with Web for concentration so that's what you should be comparing it to. At it's most basic this is a comparison of 3d6 elemental damage in a 15 ft cone vs restraining, difficult terrain and light obscurement in a 20 ft cube. A 20 ft cube covers more area and is thus more likely to get multiple enemies, 3d6 damage is alright but not a game changer, whereas restraining an enemy will completely remove melee enemies from consideration, and if they succeed they're still in difficult terrain which could potentially slow them enough to make it impossible for them to reach their targets.
So unless you're fighting ranged foes or can't anchor the web for whatever reason, web is a better option. Though of course dragon's breath has its place.

[Blatant Beast]

and a spider or something can hang out underneath my robe (or underneath an ally's armor), climb out to breathe, and climb back in.

In addition to what Ludic stated, there is also this rule:
"Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space. https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/ba...entandPosition

The first rule of Familiar Fight Club is assume the Familiar will die.
Please, indulge me in offering a small anecdote:

A friend of mine started DM'ing with 5e. My friend would joke with the players in his game, that whenever I, (Blatant Beast), DM, I would kill the PC's animals, and that he, (the new DM), would not be so mean.

I pointed out that I killed tricked out 3e Animal Companions that had their own magic items, and also became absolute monsters when Animal Growth was applied plus other buff spells, and that my newly minted DM friend would just need to give it time until they as well had to put down buffed woodland animals as a tactical necessity.

The combination of Familiar plus Dragon's Breath was the breaking point for that DM. There are only so many turns that one can ignore a tiny creature walking or flying around breathing Fire, Acid, etc, killing things .

The combo is fun, but the Familiar will be Targeted, and it will die, just keep that in mind. Familiars have low AC, and a single HP, and Find Familiar takes an hour to cast, (or an hour and 10 minutes as a Ritual).

KingCheesePants: Web is no longer the hotness for 2nd level spells, that title now goes to Rime's Binding Ice :)

[Chronos]

Web's a great spell, no dispute there, and I probably will eventually be getting it, but my thinking is that it has some overlap with Grease, and since I've been taking spells like Grease for my other spells, I need something for when just plain damage is the right choice. And Dragon's Breath isn't just 3d6 damage; it's 3d6 damage per turn, which can really add up over time.

For reference, the other spells I'm looking at right now are
0: Chill Touch, Create Bonfire, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth
1: Detect Magic, Find Familiar, Fog Cloud, Grease, Mage Armor, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Tenser's Floating Disk, Unseen Servant
2: Phantasmal Force, Dragon's Breath

As a more meta consideration, we're probably going to eventually fight or befriend a wizard-like enemy, or otherwise find spellbooks as loot, and so I'll be getting whatever spells are in those books for "free" (still paying cash to scribe them, but not having to spend my scarce level-up spells known on them). Which means that it's better to use my level-up spells on spells that are less likely to be found in looted spellbooks, which favors non-core spells.

Where is Rime's Blinding Ice from? I'm not seeing that in Xanathar's nor Tasha's.

[Dualight]

Where is Rime's Blinding Ice from? I'm not seeing that in Xanathar's nor Tasha's.

Fizban's Treasury of Dragons, page 21, to be exact.

[Damon_Tor]

In addition to what Ludic stated, there is also this rule:
"Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space. https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/ba...entandPosition

Unless you're acting as the familiar's mount.

[Blatant Beast]

Unless you're acting as the familiar's mount.

That is one option. That stated, I feel comfortable in stating more than a single DM might not let just any old thing count as a mount.

If you notice the Mounts table on page 157 of the PHB: Mounts and Other Animals does not list a bipedal mount.
https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/...hicles#content

Page 155 of the PHB states the following about Mounts:
"Mounts other than those listed here are available in
the worlds of D&D, but they are rare and not normally
available for purchase. These include flying mounts
(pegasi, griffons, hippogriffs, and similar animals) and
even aquatic mounts (giant sea horses, for example).
Acquiring such a mount often means securing an egg
and raising the creature yourself, making a bargain with
a powerful entity, or negotiating with the mount itself".


Again, no mention of bipedal mounts. There is nothing in the rules to suggest that the designer's considered bipedal creatures to be mounts. The Ogre Howdah creature statblock has a special quality "Howdah", that describes that the ogre has a literal fort on it's back.

Bipedal mounts, are not really a thing. Even if a DM did rule, that a bipedal creature can qualify as a mount, training would be needed, especially for combat, and there would need to be a saddle. Again this assumes something like a Pixie Familiar.

[Eldariel]

In addition to what Ludic stated, there is also this rule:
"Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space. https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/ba...entandPosition

The first rule of Familiar Fight Club is assume the Familiar will die.
Please, indulge me in offering a small anecdote:

A friend of mine started DM'ing with 5e. My friend would joke with the players in his game, that whenever I, (Blatant Beast), DM, I would kill the PC's animals, and that he, (the new DM), would not be so mean.

I pointed out that I killed tricked out 3e Animal Companions that had their own magic items, and also became absolute monsters when Animal Growth was applied plus other buff spells, and that my newly minted DM friend would just need to give it time until they as well had to put down buffed woodland animals as a tactical necessity.

The combination of Familiar plus Dragon's Breath was the breaking point for that DM. There are only so many turns that one can ignore a tiny creature walking or flying around breathing Fire, Acid, etc, killing things .

The combo is fun, but the Familiar will be Targeted, and it will die, just keep that in mind. Familiars have low AC, and a single HP, and Find Familiar takes an hour to cast, (or an hour and 10 minutes as a Ritual).

KingCheesePants: Web is no longer the hotness for 2nd level spells, that title now goes to Rime's Binding Ice :)

It greatly depends on the enemies you face too. You're playing Strixhaven? Yeah, it'll die horribly many times (but it's only short rest and 10gp to resummon so whatever). You're playing LMoP? It can actually survive a long time as long as you abuse total cover and flight as much as possible.

Also, if an enemy archer goes out of their way to try and kill it, those are shots not aimed at PCs. So you are happy (same with 3.5e Animal Growthed ACs: if it dies it does its job, getting a new one is just a free ritual).

[Kurald Galain]

My next character will be a wizard (starting at level 3), and I'm looking at spells. Dragon's Breath looks really good, especially when cast on a familiar: Is there something I'm missing?

Well, the obvious thing is that you can't cast a bonus action spell and a regular spell in the same round (except a cantrip). Early in combat, I'd probably want to use my action on some big-effect spell instead.

And well, most characters or creatures can do ~10 damage per round on their own, so they don't need a buff spell to do that. In fact I'd say that on anything except a familiar, this spell isn't really worth it. $.02

[Ionathus]

I've let my wizard player use Dragon's Breath on her familiar before. My hard-and-fast rule for that is the same as my rule for all other "Familiar Shenanigans":

If your familiar isn't participating in combat, enemies will leave it alone.
If your familiar establishes itself as a threat in combat, your enemies will act accordingly.

She's used Dragon's Breath Familiar strategy to great effect. She's also lost her familiar basically every time. She gets that it's part of the risk.

[Blatant Beast]

It greatly depends on the enemies you face too. You're playing Strixhaven? Yeah, it'll die horribly many times (but it's only short rest and 10gp to resummon so whatever). You're playing LMoP? It can actually survive a long time as long as you abuse total cover and flight as much as possible.

Also, if an enemy archer goes out of their way to try and kill it, those are shots not aimed at PCs. So you are happy (same with 3.5e Animal Growthed ACs: if it dies it does its job, getting a new one is just a free ritual).

Which still results in the Familiar being Targeted and dying if the Familiar and Dragon's Breath is effective enough to warrant an attack on it.

The LMoP reference makes me laugh, the Wave Echo Cave is in LMoP I believe, and there is a Flameskull and a Wraith in that dungeon I believe. Fireballs spread, and Wraiths are insubstantial...

If Familiar Drone Strikes were decimating a group of PC, people will ready actions, and take out the drone, regardless of the Action Economy, because the removal is necessary. Tough Games almost always have Morton Fork type decisions to make.

[Damon_Tor]

That is one option. That stated, I feel comfortable in stating more than a single DM might not let just any old thing count as a mount.

If you notice the Mounts table on page 157 of the PHB: Mounts and Other Animals does not list a bipedal mount.
https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/...hicles#content

Page 155 of the PHB states the following about Mounts:
"Mounts other than those listed here are available in
the worlds of D&D, but they are rare and not normally
available for purchase. These include flying mounts
(pegasi, griffons, hippogriffs, and similar animals) and
even aquatic mounts (giant sea horses, for example).
Acquiring such a mount often means securing an egg
and raising the creature yourself, making a bargain with
a powerful entity, or negotiating with the mount itself".


Again, no mention of bipedal mounts. There is nothing in the rules to suggest that the designer's considered bipedal creatures to be mounts. The Ogre Howdah creature statblock has a special quality "Howdah", that describes that the ogre has a literal fort on it's back.

Bipedal mounts, are not really a thing. Even if a DM did rule, that a bipedal creature can qualify as a mount, training would be needed, especially for combat, and there would need to be a saddle. Again this assumes something like a Pixie Familiar.

I've never met a DM that wouldn't let a familiar sit on your shoulder. Frankly I can't imagine a DM ruling otherwise.

[Blatant Beast]

Out of combat there would be no issue. The restriction about not ending your move is another creature’s space only applies to combat.

[sambojin]

Dragon's breath isn't bad. But if you don't mind going way outside core books, Flock of Familiars might serve you better. 3x help actions a turn, without using an action, is about that good. Owls for preference (they can still do stuff. Int2, yes, but Wis12, does count for a bit).
You can also do annoying stuff like drop caltrop/ ball bearing mines, etc as well if the DM allows. Ruin the action economy properly, if you're going to try.

[Eldariel]

Which still results in the Familiar being Targeted and dying if the Familiar and Dragon's Breath is effective enough to warrant an attack on it.

The LMoP reference makes me laugh, the Wave Echo Cave is in LMoP I believe, and there is a Flameskull and a Wraith in that dungeon I believe. Fireballs spread, and Wraiths are insubstantial...

If Familiar Drone Strikes were decimating a group of PC, people will ready actions, and take out the drone, regardless of the Action Economy, because the removal is necessary. Tough Games almost always have Morton Fork type decisions to make.

Well, Wave Echo Caves is the last dungeon of the whole deal; up until then you don't really face much AOE (aside from Venomfang obviously). And if spends action economy killing it you're happy: it's more than done its job. And if they don't, you're happy too. Win/win!

[Slipjig]

See, nonsense like this is why I really dislike how 5e treats familiars. Throwing your familiar into combat should be stressful, and losing a familiar should carry a cost.

Not to go all grognard, but in 2e you couldn't pick what kind of creature responded, the spell took 2d12 hours and 1,000 gp to cast, the spell could only be cast once a YEAR, and your familiar dying meant you had to make a check to see if the feedback killed you (and passing still cost a permanent point of CON). Plus none of this "seeing through their eyes" nonsense.

[stoutstien]

See, nonsense like this is why I really dislike how 5e treats familiars. Throwing your familiar into combat should be stressful, and losing a familiar should carry a cost.

Not to go all grognard, but in 2e you couldn't pick what kind of creature responded, the spell took 2d12 hours and 1,000 gp to cast, the spell could only be cast once a YEAR, and your familiar dying meant you had to make a check to see if the feedback killed you (and passing still cost a permanent point of CON). Plus none of this "seeing through their eyes" nonsense.

I've toyed with allowing any excess damage that kills a familiar to spill back over to the caster but I never finalized it.

[InvisibleBison]

See, nonsense like this is why I really dislike how 5e treats familiars. Throwing your familiar into combat should be stressful, and losing a familiar should carry a cost.

Not to go all grognard, but in 2e you couldn't pick what kind of creature responded, the spell took 2d12 hours and 1,000 gp to cast, the spell could only be cast once a YEAR, and your familiar dying meant you had to make a check to see if the feedback killed you (and passing still cost a permanent point of CON). Plus none of this "seeing through their eyes" nonsense.

How is that better than how 5e treats familiars? Or are you just presenting your preference?

[LudicSavant]

How is that better than how 5e treats familiars? Or are you just presenting your preference?

I've heard some of my friends who are a fan of old school describe it like, it's sort of... there's a sort of sense of weight to it. Like, the opposite feeling of what people are complaining about when they talk about everything being 'spectral.' There's a sense that the world does not exist for the convenience of game mechanics. Instead, you have to adapt your play to the inconveniences of this living and dangerous world. If you're designing for immersion first, inconvenience can actually be a good thing sometimes.

Not necessarily better or worse, per se, but it's a different aesthetic with different pros and cons.

[Amnestic]

There's definitely stuff you could do that isn't quite as extreme as "chance you die". Overkill damage hitting the caster is one. Death of a familiar causing a -1 to all d20s (or just to PB) until a long rest completes is another. Could make each summon 'expend' a hit die, so it can't be used for healing. Could simply bar you from resummoning it for a few days or weeks.

[Chronos]

Second-edition familiars were an entirely different thing from 3rd or 5th. In 2nd, you had huge penalties when a familiar died... but as long as the familiar existed, the wizard got an increase to their own HP. So the optimal way of using a familiar was to write down in your backstory that you cast the spell once, write down your improved HP total, then keep the familiar hidden away and forget that it ever existed. Which wasn't very interesting.

[Eldariel]

Second-edition familiars were an entirely different thing from 3rd or 5th. In 2nd, you had huge penalties when a familiar died... but as long as the familiar existed, the wizard got an increase to their own HP. So the optimal way of using a familiar was to write down in your backstory that you cast the spell once, write down your improved HP total, then keep the familiar hidden away and forget that it ever existed. Which wasn't very interesting.

Basically 3e Toad.