Beholder Mage Questions

[Psycho Ban]

I was looking through Savage Species when I found the Ritual of Association. Basically, for 5600 GP and 2240 XP you can be treated as a creature subtype or classification of your choice (orc was given as an example). I was wondering, if you used this along with the 10 different types of Eye Stalk grafts and the Third Eye graft, could you qualify for Beholder Mage?

[Darg]

Racial subtype is specifically for races. A beholder is not a race, it's a monster. Races are playable creatures. Only if your DM allows beholders as a playable race would you ever be allowed to gain the true beholder subtype.

[Psycho Ban]

Well, I'll mark that down as a win for theoretical optimization.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Beholders are type Aberration with no specific subtype. This is not possible, even from a theoretical standpoint, because a subtype is not what makes someone count as a Beholder.

Furthermore, Beholder Mage was updated to 3.5 in Lords of Madness.

Entry Requirements
Race: True beholder (beholderkin cannot become beholder
mages).
Special: Must put out central antimagic eye.

Nothing about type or subtype. Only a Monster Manual version of a Beholder, not any other versions, can take the prestige class. If it somehow becomes another creature, even temporarily via Polymorph or Alter Self, it cease to qualify for the class and loses all the features of it. So even if you somehow trick the rules into thinking you're a True Beholder, it stops working as soon as you're not one any more.

If you want to somehow buy entery to the prestige class, hire an NPC Psion to use Mind Switch, True three times: Once to put his own mind into the Beholder and the Beholder's mind into his own body, a second time to swap with you so he ends up in your body and you're the Beholder, and once more to go back into his own body and the Beholder ends up in yours. Now you've got a Beholder's mind in your body to steal your identity, if you kill it then both you and the NPC Psion lose a level so hire someone else to cast Imprisonment on it.

[Psycho Ban]

Beholders are type Aberration with no specific subtype. This is not possible, even from a theoretical standpoint, because a subtype is not what makes someone count as a Beholder.

Furthermore, Beholder Mage was updated to 3.5 in Lords of Madness.

Entry Requirements
Race: True beholder (beholderkin cannot become beholder
mages).
Special: Must put out central antimagic eye.

Nothing about type or subtype. Only a Monster Manual version of a Beholder, not any other versions, can take the prestige class. If it somehow becomes another creature, even temporarily via Polymorph or Alter Self, it cease to qualify for the class and loses all the features of it. So even if you somehow trick the rules into thinking you're a True Beholder, it stops working as soon as you're not one any more.

If you want to somehow buy entery to the prestige class, hire an NPC Psion to use Mind Switch, True three times: Once to put his own mind into the Beholder and the Beholder's mind into his own body, a second time to swap with you so he ends up in your body and you're the Beholder, and once more to go back into his own body and the Beholder ends up in yours. Now you've got a Beholder's mind in your body to steal your identity, if you kill it then both you and the NPC Psion lose a level so hire someone else to cast Imprisonment on it.

Well, thank you for the concise guide.

[Chronos]

And even if you do pull off that mind switch thing, you now have LA --, and so can only ever earn XP by DM fiat, and so you still can't take the class.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

And even if you do pull off that mind switch thing, you now have LA --, and so can only ever earn XP by DM fiat, and so you still can't take the class.

Indeed, it's entirely up to your DM whether you can continue as a player character after permanently becoming a LA — monster.

On the theoretical side, you could get to level 20, get a Thought Bottle to store your current xp, create or acquire the items to cast Mind Switch, True and Imprisonment, get level drained to 1st somehow, use the items to Mind Switch the Beholder then Imprisonment your original body, and finally use the Thought Bottle to retrieve your previous XP total and go back to 20th level. However, would the Thought Bottle still recognize you in the Beholder's body? Again there's plenty of room for a DM to simply say, "No."

[Rebel7284]

The simplest way I found of playing a beholder mage is... Zhentarim Skymage.

Beholders fly. Beholder Mage is just an advanced Beholder.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...-Beholder-Mage

[Psycho Ban]

The simplest way I found of playing a beholder mage is... Zhentarim Skymage.

Beholders fly. Beholder Mage is just an advanced Beholder.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...-Beholder-Mage

Your link's broken.

[Remuko]

Your link's broken.

It is in their post but in your quote of their post it works. Very weird.

[Rebel7284]

Your link's broken.

Fixed it. Was posting on mobile, and I guess whatever JS that does automatic link parsing broke.

[Harrow]

If it somehow becomes another creature, even temporarily via Polymorph or Alter Self, it cease to qualify for the class and loses all the features of it. So even if you somehow trick the rules into thinking you're a True Beholder, it stops working as soon as you're not one any more.

I would note that not everyone agrees that losing the prerequisites for a prestige class makes you lose the features of that class, outside of those contained in the couple of books that explicitly state as much, of which I don't recall Lords of Madness being one. You certainly wouldn't be able to take more levels until you qualified again, but losing what you already have isn't guaranteed. Also, is "True beholder" ever defined beyond "not beholderkin"?

[Chronos]

Indeed, some prestige classes (from books other than Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane) disqualify themselves. Probably the worst offender is Ur-Priest, which requires that you not be able to cast divine spells, and then immediately gives you the ability to cast divine spells. Also, while both Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane include a rule that you lose PrC abilities when you lose a prerequisite, they're not the same rule, so if you're going to make that a global rule, you'd have to decide which one has precedence over the other.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I would note that not everyone agrees that losing the prerequisites for a prestige class makes you lose the features of that class, outside of those contained in the couple of books that explicitly state as much, of which I don't recall Lords of Madness being one. You certainly wouldn't be able to take more levels until you qualified again, but losing what you already have isn't guaranteed. Also, is "True beholder" ever defined beyond "not beholderkin"?

It's defined in the same chapter the prestige class is found in, in the section immediately preceding that prestige class. Read the two paragraphs under Beholder Variants on page 41, it briefly discusses the Elder Orb and Hive Mother, then goes on to explain that other beholderkin "...are the subjects of wrath among true beholders..." indicating that all non-beholderkin are considered true beholders.

On page 135 it starts with the beholderkin stats, which includes the Hive Mother but not the Elder Orb. The description of the Elder Orb in Chapter 3 is that it's a standard Beholder that lives longer, typically has higher HD which makes it larger, and doesn't suffer physical ability score penalties for venerable age. That means an Elder Orb is a 'true beholder' but none of the other variants are. There's only one monster in 3.5 that's named Beholder, all others are not true beholders.

[Beni-Kujaku]

That means an Elder Orb is a 'true beholder' but none of the other variants are.

I mean, even in-game, elder orbs aren't even mechanically different from regular true beholders, they're just advanced TB with class levels.

[Crake]

Indeed, it's entirely up to your DM whether you can continue as a player character after permanently becoming a LA — monster.

On the theoretical side, you could get to level 20, get a Thought Bottle to store your current xp, create or acquire the items to cast Mind Switch, True and Imprisonment, get level drained to 1st somehow, use the items to Mind Switch the Beholder then Imprisonment your original body, and finally use the Thought Bottle to retrieve your previous XP total and go back to 20th level. However, would the Thought Bottle still recognize you in the Beholder's body? Again there's plenty of room for a DM to simply say, "No."

As a beholder, your previous xp total would be at best able to get you to 9th level, as you have 11 HD now which counts as 11 levels

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

As a beholder, your previous xp total would be at best able to get you to 9th level, as you have 11 HD now which counts as 11 levels

Indeed, but that still gets you to 9th level spells from Beholder Mage.

[Crake]

Indeed, but that still gets you to 9th level spells from Beholder Mage.

Sure, but presumably you had that already from being level 20.

Also, i did say at best. If your DM decides to impose some amount of LA to account for your status as a beholder now, you may have even less levels, or your DM might decide you must advance by some other means

[glass]

Indeed, some prestige classes (from books other than Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane) disqualify themselves. Probably the worst offender is Ur-Priest, which requires that you not be able to cast divine spells, and then immediately gives you the ability to cast divine spells. Also, while both Complete Warrior and Complete Arcane include a rule that you lose PrC abilities when you lose a prerequisite, they're not the same rule, so if you're going to make that a global rule, you'd have to decide which one has precedence over the other.

Interesting, I never picked up on that. I happen to have CArc handy, and AFAICT it works exactly how I expected it to work. How does the version in CWar differ?

[Harrow]

It's defined in the same chapter the prestige class is found in, in the section immediately preceding that prestige class. Read the two paragraphs under Beholder Variants on page 41, it briefly discusses the Elder Orb and Hive Mother, then goes on to explain that other beholderkin "...are the subjects of wrath among true beholders..." indicating that all non-beholderkin are considered true beholders.

On page 135 it starts with the beholderkin stats, which includes the Hive Mother but not the Elder Orb. The description of the Elder Orb in Chapter 3 is that it's a standard Beholder that lives longer, typically has higher HD which makes it larger, and doesn't suffer physical ability score penalties for venerable age. That means an Elder Orb is a 'true beholder' but none of the other variants are. There's only one monster in 3.5 that's named Beholder, all others are not true beholders.

I asked because I wanted to know if there were any indications on how shape-changing magic interacts. If you use a polymorph effect to turn into a True Beholder, can you take the prestige class? If a "natural" True Beholder polymorphs into something else, does it no longer qualify for the class? What I'm picking up is that it's one of those things that was never addressed. Shape-changing stuff gets a lot of that. If an orc druid wildshapes into a bear, does the party ranger's Favored Enemy (orcs) still work? If they want to use Knowledge Devotion, what Knowledge skill would they roll?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I asked because I wanted to know if there were any indications on how shape-changing magic interacts. If you use a polymorph effect to turn into a True Beholder, can you take the prestige class? If a "natural" True Beholder polymorphs into something else, does it no longer qualify for the class? What I'm picking up is that it's one of those things that was never addressed. Shape-changing stuff gets a lot of that. If an orc druid wildshapes into a bear, does the party ranger's Favored Enemy (orcs) still work? If they want to use Knowledge Devotion, what Knowledge skill would they roll?

Only permanent effects can help you meet prerequisites. You can't cast Bull's Strength then level up and take Power Attack on a character who normally has Str 10. You can't Polymorph into a Beholder then level up and take Beholder Mage.

On the Wild Shape question, post-errata that mimics Alternate Form, and you retain your original type and subtype when using Alternate Form. So an Orc Druid is still a Humanoid (Orc) while Wild Shaped. Even if you take Aberration Wild Shape and turn into a Beholder for hours at a time, even if you have enough uses and duration of Wild Shape to stay in that form 24/7, you still need to keep using another Wild Shape every so often to keep it up so it's not permanent. It would be like casting Bull's Strength over and over throughout the day instead of getting a permanent item to accomplish the same thing. Furthermore, Wild Shape still refers to your original form as such, which likely wouldn't count you as a true beholder.

Finally, even if you could turn into a Beholder and take Beholder Mage, your Beholder Mage spells are specifically cast from your eyestalks which become spell-stalks. If you're no longer in the form of a Beholder, you no longer have any spell-stalks and can no longer cast any Beholder Mage spells. So even if you would retain the prestige class features after losing its prerequisistes, that prerequisite is actually required to use the features so you'll still lose access.

[Darg]

Only permanent effects can help you meet prerequisites. You can't cast Bull's Strength then level up and take Power Attack on a character who normally has Str 10. You can't Polymorph into a Beholder then level up and take Beholder Mage.

That's a PF thing. In 3.5 that was never clarified and only ever hinted at with the complete warrior PRC requirements rules.

[loky1109]

That's a PF thing. In 3.5 that was never clarified and only ever hinted at with the complete warrior PRC requirements rules.

Iirc, there was something directly opposite in 3.0

[glass]

That's a PF thing. In 3.5 that was never clarified and only ever hinted at with the complete warrior PRC requirements rules.

Where does it say that in Pathfinder?

I didn't think it was true for any of 3.0, 3.5, and PF1. AFAIK, the only difference between an underlying Strength of 10 with a +4 enhancement bonus and an actual score of 14 is what happens when you try to apply a second enhancement bonus.

[Chronos]

You can explicitly take feats even if you only temporarily meet the requirements. In that case, you get the benefits of the feat while you have the prerequisites, and lose the benefits whenever you lose the prerequisites. For prestige classes, the rules are less clear.