Steph Erwin, dragon wrestler

[herrhauptmann]

I haven't used grappling too much in the various editions, but I was wondering how useful it is against a monster like a dragon.

Assuming you can get the size to grapple it, and a high enough athletics to succeed, is it actually good? Against casters? Of course. But dragons?

It looks like a dragon would only get one try to break out, since multi attack is a single attack action. Different from fighters who get iterative attacks in a turn. But that doesn't stop the dragon from roasting the party with dragonbreath, or unloading multiple attacks via multi attack and just mauling the grappler to death. So is grappling really going to do anything? Especially if it locks down the main melee damage dealer?

[Unoriginal]

I haven't used grappling too much in the various editions, but I was wondering how useful it is against a monster like a dragon.

Assuming you can get the size to grapple it, and a high enough athletics to succeed, is it actually good? Against casters? Of course. But dragons?

It looks like a dragon would only get one try to break out, since multi attack is a single attack action. Different from fighters who get iterative attacks in a turn. But that doesn't stop the dragon from roasting the party with dragonbreath, or unloading multiple attacks via multi attack and just mauling the grappler to death. So is grappling really going to do anything? Especially if it locks down the main melee damage dealer?

A dragon's main tactical advantage over humanoids is their high flying speed. Being able to pick and choose which PC they're attacking, being able to stay out of a lot of melee characters' range if they want to, being able to hit-n-run with their breath, and being able to just flee means the dragon can control the flow of the combat in situations where less mobile foes would just be stuck fighting a group of adventurers on the adventurers' terms, which is never a good situation to be in.

A successful grapple destroys that advantage, for as long as it lasts.

So yes, grappling is going to do a lot.

It doesn't "lock down the main melee damage dealer", either, it keeps the main melee danage dealer in melee range of the dragon, which is a great thing. Grappling does not prevent attacking.

Sure, it doesn't prevent being multiattacked or breathed on by te dragon... but it's not like *not* grappling the dragon would protect you from that.

Also, once the dragon is grappled, the grappler can shove them prone, meaning that all of the dragon's melee attacks will be made at disadvantage, while all the group's melee attacks are made with advantage. Often a death sentence, when action economy is already working against the dragon (unless they got allies).

[herrhauptmann]

Thank you.
I forgot about shoving prone.

While grappling the person initiating is limited to unarmed or one handed attacks right? Because grabbing a 2 hander should release the enemy. (By logic it would, not sure about rules.)

[Unoriginal]

Thank you.
I forgot about shoving prone.

While grappling the person initiating is limited to unarmed or one handed attacks right? Because grabbing a 2 hander should release the enemy. (By logic it would, not sure about rules.)

Yes, grappling requires one hand per grappled target.

But anyone who want to grapple an adult dragon would already have built a character with that limitation in mind.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I played a pure support vhuman Cleric 1/ Lore Bard, shield master, heavy armor, expertise in athletics with cutting words, designed to grapple and then BA shove prone the most dangerous opponent every encounter. I actually did grapple a dragon and shove it prone, and our melee heavy party absolutely obliterated it. Bards can even learn Enlarge/Reduce now, and Silvery Barbs means winning the grapple and getting advantage on the shove!

[herrhauptmann]

Yes, grappling requires one hand per grappled target.

But anyone who want to grapple an adult dragon would already have built a character with that limitation in mind.

Yeah... I did not.
I've got a high strength rune knight, so I was hoping I could moonlight as a grappler, despite having a 2 hander. I do have a couple hand axes I could use, but I'm expecting to need those with Strike of the Giants to bring the dragon out of the air in the first place.

Knock down, get big, hit a bunch, grapple+shove. Keep it pinned for the rogue and casters

[Unoriginal]

Yeah... I did not.
I've got a high strength rune knight, so I was hoping I could moonlight as a grappler, despite having a 2 hander. I do have a couple hand axes I could use, but I'm expecting to need those with Strike of the Giants to bring the dragon out of the air in the first place.

Knock down, get big, hit a bunch, grapple+shove. Keep it pinned for the rogue and casters

If you can knock a dragon out of the sky, then you've already earned your keep in that fight.

The way to do the grappling, however, would be: get big, grapple+shove, and then hit a bunch.

You won't do great damage compared to your usual, but since you built for two-handed weapons and only want to moonlight as a grappler without investing into it, that's pretty great to actually being able to grapple the dragon.

Something I forgot to mention earlier: grapples require an ability check, so that bypass a dragon's Legendary resistence and save modifier. And they generally aren't proficient in Athletics.

[stoutstien]

Additionally if you treat the dragon like a creature then you'd assume you could do more than just hold it prone with grappling. Clamping it's jaw shut is both effective and true to the troupe of being the big guy wrestling a beast.

[herrhauptmann]

Yeah, skipping the saves is a big goal. My athletics after a belt of giant strength is equal to, or better than the Tarrasque so a dragon shouldn't be a problem. (I've actually avoided looking at dragon stats.)

I figured skill expert for a doubled athletics would be my best choice, we leveled after the last session, and use that as a surefire grapple. 1 feat doesn't seem like too much expenditure for a sure-kill tactic, but if all it means is that I spend longer getting hit since I'm not hitting as hard myself...