A thread of loose ends

[Provengreil]

Ok, that makes a lot more sense.

I don't think they're necessarily mutually exclusive. Though, that being said, i have no idea how anything would get resolved satisfactorily given the systemic goblinoid oppression outside of them and TDO fighting a perpetually uphill battle against the status quo without wrecking everything, so i can't really offer any competing ideas on how it will all end.

Here's one for you: Snarl gets out, starts eating the world. The gods, instead of reaping the world because they somehow can't(Maybe failure to actually agree to conditions in the Godsmoot on account of Hel's plan), move the population of the world past the Snarl and onto the Planet in the Rift, and use their 4 colors to no longer seal the Snarl in, but out.

Since EVERYONE is starting from zero here, the goblinoids are part of the new world just as much as anyone else.

[Metastachydium]

Here's one for you: Snarl gets out, starts eating the world. The gods, instead of reaping the world because they somehow can't(Maybe failure to actually agree to conditions in the Godsmoot on account of Hel's plan), move the population of the world past the Snarl and onto the Planet in the Rift, and use their 4 colors to no longer seal the Snarl in, but out.

Since EVERYONE is starting from zero here, the goblinoids are part of the new world just as much as anyone else.

…which could work, especially since from Big Purple's point of view, this is really just an improved version of Plan B where he gets to keep his following. Sole problem is, this means
1. our heroes failed HARD; and
2. it's really just a bunch of background characters (albeit of the divine sort) clearing up the mess in their stead.

[Provengreil]

…which could work, especially since from Big Purple's point of view, this is really just an improved version of Plan B where he gets to keep his following. Sole problem is, this means
1. our heroes failed HARD; and
2. it's really just a bunch of background characters (albeit of the divine sort) clearing up the mess in their stead.

Yeah, I didn't really like that theory much anyway. I just kinda threw it out there as a potential answer to Pelee.

That said, the Planet was implied to be uninhabited, right? I think I'm remembering right, not going looking atm. Since I agree that the gods just doing a better patch job isn't a likely resolution, that amount of presumably productive land would help a lot on the equality plan.

[Errorname]

but the thing is, the Snarl's presence is already doing that, big time, and the characters doing what they do about it now has the added bonus of being a handy path towards staisfyingly wrapping up the monster races subplot and Redcloak's personal arc. It would just be an extra step in the process and I'm not sure what, exactly, it could add.

I'm not sure either, but the existence of a world within the rifts means there probably is an extra step.

…which could work, especially since from Big Purple's point of view, this is really just an improved version of Plan B where he gets to keep his following. Sole problem is, this means
1. our heroes failed HARD; and
2. it's really just a bunch of background characters (albeit of the divine sort) clearing up the mess in their stead.

Yeah, the gods fixing everything for our heroes is not something I can see happening. However this ends, the Order and Redcloak will be the ones to actually make the decisive plays.

[hroþila]

I don't think that's necessarily a problem. The Order could create the circumstances that would allow the gods to solve the Snarl problem without killing every mortal in the process. For example, by destroying Xykon and convincing Redcloak to contribute his god's quiddity, or by somehow containing the Snarl long enough for the gods to do their thing, or what have you. Obviously the details would need to be worked out, it's easy to come up with scenarios where only the gods would have any agency, but in principle I don't see why the basic idea (where everyone moves to the new world) wouldn't work for this story, and on the face of it it actually sounds quite plausible.

[Peelee]

Pelee.

Your mix is just slightly off. Add a little more Peele to balance out the accidental Pele that got added in.

[Fergie0044]

Another one for the minor list (and likely to be answered very soon) Roy seems to pull Durkon aside in https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1280.html which suggests a little plan is in motion. I'd bet it was a sending that could pull in Hinjo...

[MartianInvader]

Another one for the minor list (and likely to be answered very soon) Roy seems to pull Durkon aside in https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1280.html which suggests a little plan is in motion. I'd bet it was a sending that could pull in Hinjo...

Added.

I'm avoiding adding questions that are simply "What happens to X?" when there isn't a specific hint or hook indicating an upcoming reveal. That's true whether X is a character, place, organization, or whatever. Those aren't really loose ends, they're just musings on the plot.

To that end, I've also decided to take Provengreil's advice and remove the location of Kraagor's gate from the list. Even though there's been quite a bit of guessing on the forums, there haven't really been any hints in the comic itself that it's important, and there's no real reason the story needs to explore it further.

[Bird]

Looks like Thog hasn't come up yet?

We still don't know if he survived the collapse in the arena fight.

[Ruck]

I wouldn't necessarily bet on us getting a resolution to that. We might, but I would bet that it's ultimately not enough to matter. (Unless Rich decides he wants to tell a "Life After Nale" story with Thog in a spinoff or something.)

[Yendor]

Looks like Thog hasn't come up yet?

We still don't know if he survived the collapse in the arena fight.

If I were Tarquin, my plan would be along the lines of "leave him for a week or so until he dies of thirst, then stab the hell out of whatever you dig up".

[Bird]

Even if Thog is dead, I find it plausible that we'll see him interact with Sabine at some point.

While he could remain a loose end, he was quite a prominent character for a long time, and the Giant went out of his way to keep his fate uncertain. So, I do expect to see him again in one form or another.

[Ruck]

The more I think about it, the more I could see Rich thinking Thog's fate in this story doesn't matter, but leaving it open in case he wants to tell more stories or include him somewhere. I recall somewhere he said he loves writing for Thog because he's comedy gold.

It would be pretty funny if Thog of all people was the bad guy who showed up at the end to help the good guys. Not very plausible he could get there, but funny. "thog look for nale, no nale. with no nale thog find not-nale. thog like nale but no nale so not-nale."

[Provengreil]

The more I think about it, the more I could see Rich thinking Thog's fate in this story doesn't matter, but leaving it open in case he wants to tell more stories or include him somewhere. I recall somewhere he said he loves writing for Thog because he's comedy gold.

It would be pretty funny if Thog of all people was the bad guy who showed up at the end to help the good guys. Not very plausible he could get there, but funny. "thog look for nale, no nale. with no nale thog find not-nale. thog like nale but no nale so not-nale."

Should Thog both be alive and relevant to anything, I'd find it much more plausible that Thog is a part of Elan's Anti-Tarquin plan. MartianInvader even has the idea that Sabine is potentially involved already, if anyone could safely lead Thog into such a plan it'd be her.

[Metastachydium]

(Unless Rich decides he wants to tell a "Life After Nale" story with Thog in a spinoff or something.)

Oh, man. Now I want to see that happen.

[Synesthesy]

Looks like Thog hasn't come up yet?

We still don't know if he survived the collapse in the arena fight.

It is obvious that he didn't die until we see him with "X"s on his eyes. I bet even Tarquin did know that and he thought to use him after somehow.

Still hope for a book in two parts - rise and fall of the Vector Legion and Linear Guild. With both a prequel and a sequel, when Tarquin will realize that he not only is not the main antagonist, but that he will die only in a spin off book.

[MartianInvader]

I could see Thog ending up as this mysterious "vessel" the IFCC needs, with Sabine talking him into it. They certainly can muster the power to physically transport him to a plot-convenient location.

Heck, maybe they undead-ify Nale on Sabine's behalf and we get a Final Form of the Linear guild (not willing to bet any quatloos on that, though).

[Aquillion]

If I were Tarquin, my plan would be along the lines of "leave him for a week or so until he dies of thirst, then stab the hell out of whatever you dig up".

Ah, yes, leaving your enemies in an inescapable deathtrap, clearly the mark of the refined villain.

[Metastachydium]

Still hope for a book in two parts - rise and fall of the Vector Legion and Linear Guild. With both a prequel and a sequel, when Tarquin will realize that he not only is not the main antagonist, but that he will die only in a spin off book.

That sounds like a good idea until you realize you'd just give him another story where he truly is the main antagonist.

I could see Thog ending up as this mysterious "vessel" the IFCC needs, with Sabine talking him into it. They certainly can muster the power to physically transport him to a plot-convenient location.

I'm pretty sure this is not the first time I express the sentiment that I could, in fact, see that happening.

Heck, maybe they undead-ify Nale on Sabine's behalf and we get a Final Form of the Linear guild (not willing to bet any quatloos on that, though).

They'd stil be half a team short and more importantly, Nale is dead and not coming back, period.

[Precure]

I see the reasoning for why "epic final duel in villain's secret fortress" sounds cool for a finale, it is, but if we're making predictions we should be looking at the story as written and seeing if the writer is actually setting that up.

And it doesn't really seem like it is? The Astral Fortress is very far away from the Final Dungeon, there's nothing in it of actual plot significance, Xykon's not going to flee somewhere he wants nobody to ever find when he has perfectly viable alternatives.

My impression on the story and writing is that Rich likes one-a-one fights, especially when it involves Xykon and Roy. In their previous two clashes story bend itself to accomodate that need. I expect the same thing to happen here, and it would be perfect way to justife it happening here by forcing them to travel to that place.

[Errorname]

Heck, maybe they undead-ify Nale on Sabine's behalf and we get a Final Form of the Linear guild (not willing to bet any quatloos on that, though).

I am torn on this because Nale's current ending is so excellent and having him come back in any form would really undermine it, but it also feels like an easy way to have Sabine get some back-up for her final play that also brings the story full circle so it makes a lot of sense.

For what it's worth I had the same objections about Crystal and her second death was also pretty satisfying, so I'm sure if Rich did it he could make it work.

My impression on the story and writing is that Rich likes one-a-one fights, especially when it involves Xykon and Roy. In their previous two clashes story bend itself to accomodate that need. I expect the same thing to happen here, and it would be perfect way to justife it happening here by forcing them to travel to that place.

I am not arguing against Roy and Xykon having a final showdown, that's an extremely safe prediction.

But I don't see any reason it has to be at the Astral Fortress. It's not like Rich has to work around someone else's setting choices, he has complete control over the final dungeon and what the arena will look like, and the Snarl being a reality warper gives him even more options. His previous one-on-one duels were constructed in such a way that they felt extremely natural. He built the story around getting Roy into places where he could fight on top of an undead dragon or in a gladiatorial arena or against his best friend in a temple at the summit of a mountain.

I don't really see any of that logistical work for bringing the final showdown to the Astral Fortress and I don't see the need. There is nothing of value plot-wise at the astral fortress, it's frankly way less dramatic than a fight at the final gate or in the unraveling threads of the creation.

[Ruck]

Heck, maybe they undead-ify Nale on Sabine's behalf and we get a Final Form of the Linear guild (not willing to bet any quatloos on that, though).

How would they "undead-ify" Nale when his body is currently a bunch of ashes mixed in somewhere with desert sand?

[Errorname]

How would they "undead-ify" Nale when his body is currently a bunch of ashes mixed in somewhere with desert sand?

Ghosts are undead, so it still counts. The version I've considered is Sabine murdering Tarquin and having Nale possess his body and that ties into the plot about "the Vessel" somehow.

I've gone back and forth about this, I can see a version of this story where it makes sense but it also really undercuts two excellent resolutions that would be hard to beat as final character moments.

[Fish]

Rather than argue about whether a loose end can (or should or will) be tied up, or how it can be tied up, I want to take a look at where.

Ideally, the narrative conclusion comes as close to the actual end of the story as possible. The amount of post-climactic storytelling is therefore limited. It is certainly contraindicated to have an epilogue with months of wandering the globe fixing things, or large numbers of scene changes to locations where they can handle loose ends with low narrative stakes. Scene changes take time to set up.

Example: Elan’s plan to defeat Tarquin. How can we get narrative resolution without a scene change? Tarquin can show up, bedraggled, at the final Gate and tell us how Elan’s plan went. He realized his hero son was doing something more important than himself and he shows up to try to help/interfere. Having him show up — maybe along with some others like Hinjo, Sabine, Thog, or whoever — also supports the “nine sides trying to get to the Gate” interpretation

Going to the Astral Fortress is a scene change; we could probably tie up that loose end without going there at all. The Order grabs Redcloak’s phylactery; Xykon says “who cares, it’s a fake, the real one is in the fortress,” and Redcloak has to admit it the heroes stole the real one. Boom, loose end resolved, without moving off the spot.

This economy of scene changes suggests, if true, that resolving the Snarl won’t require a lot of travel, or even a montage of travel. Maybe the gods show up and put things right at the end, and explain the goblinoid problem, and tie up other things.

Belkar’s death can also give us narrative closure on things, because it transports him instantly to some afterlife where he can witness something happen on another plane.

At least in my mind, that’s how I’m thinking of things. How economically can we resolve things without shifting location too much?

[Ruck]

Ghosts are undead, so it still counts. The version I've considered is Sabine murdering Tarquin and having Nale possess his body and that ties into the plot about "the Vessel" somehow.

But how does this work? Where is Nale's soul? Does Sabine know? How could she get access to it? Why would whatever lower-planes being that's torturing it agree to give it to her?

I don't see how the logistics of this are supposed to work. So it mostly seems to me like people just want to find a way to get Nale back in the story. Which I also do not think will happen.

[Errorname]

Ideally, the narrative conclusion comes as close to the actual end of the story as possible. The amount of post-climactic storytelling is therefore limited. It is certainly contraindicated to have an epilogue with months of wandering the globe fixing things, or large numbers of scene changes to locations where they can handle loose ends with low narrative stakes. Scene changes take time to set up

Fantasy epics in general can get away with sprawling indulgent endings. Big stories have a lot to say goodbye to, so audiences are absolutely willing to tolerate spending time on the curtain call, you could easily montage through a bunch of farewells in quick succession like a Fallout ending slideshow should you so desire. Even if you don't, it would be much easier to justify someone coming to tell Elan that his commandment is fulfilled and that General Tarquin is dead if the heroes leave the final dungeon and go someplace else to celebrate their victories.

This economy of scene changes suggests, if true, that resolving the Snarl won’t require a lot of travel, or even a montage of travel.

I think this is correct for the wrong reasons. Solving the Snarl problem post-climax in a montage isn't particularly tense or dramatic when you could integrate whatever the solution is into the climax directly, but that doesn't mean a montage cutting across a lot of time and territory would be bad in the epilogue, just a bit anticlimactic if it's resolving an important tension.

But how does this work? Where is Nale's soul? Does Sabine know? How could she get access to it? Why would whatever lower-planes being that's torturing it agree to give it to her?

Because Sabine works for the IFCC. If her bosses are willing to give him back to her, she could have him. The logistics of this are the easy part, it's just a question of whether it would actually be best for whatever story is being told. As mentioned I have mixed feelings about it.

[Fish]

Fantasy epics in general can get away with sprawling indulgent endings. Big stories have a lot to say goodbye to...

This can be true, but a lengthy period of anticlimax — traveling around, fixing things at each Gate, restoring Azure City, watching Elan's plot against Tarquin unfold, finding Redcloak's niece, visiting the Astral Fortress — it begins to pile up, and not in a favorable way. Yes, there will be people who will say "and then what happened? and what about the police at Greysky?" but it's just not efficient storytelling.

In other words, you could do the Return of the King ending where you spin out five or six closure scenes before the curtain. Or you could do like Return of the Jedi and get all your major plot points resolved before the climax. Once the Death Star II blows up, it's a short downhill ride on the coaster to the end.

[Ruck]

Because Sabine works for the IFCC. If her bosses are willing to give him back to her, she could have him. The logistics of this are the easy part, it's just a question of whether it would actually be best for whatever story is being told. As mentioned I have mixed feelings about it.

If they have it. I don't think we have reason to think they specifically do, and they're not the only game in town for soul-ownership in Evil afterlives.

I suppose it's easy enough for Rich to write that they do, but I feel like that would have come up at some point before now. Like, say, when Nale was killed and Sabine was with the IFCC at the time.

I do not think it would be better for the story for Nale to come back. I thought, from a meta perspective, that he was killed in part because the story and the Order are moving past his kind of petty shenanigans and into more serious affairs. Much like Haley and Crystal, Elan has simply outgrown the need for this rivalry.

[Errorname]

This can be true, but a lengthy period of anticlimax begins to pile up, and not in a favorable way. Yes, there will be people who will say "and then what happened? and what about the police at Greysky?" but it's just not efficient storytelling.

Montage is extremely efficient storytelling, you can blitz through a ton of settings and characters very quickly. There are examples from this very comic.

I'm not saying that this comic should have a five page section of the epilogue dedicated to Jiminy finally pissing off a customer so badly they stabbed him with a polearm from some other store, but it wouldn't be too hard to resolve stuff like Tarquin in the epilogue without having him show up for the final battle.

I suppose it's easy enough for Rich to write that they do, but I feel like that would have come up at some point before now. Like, say, when Nale was killed and Sabine was with the IFCC at the time.

Honestly, I don't think so. Our IFCC stuff since Nale died was either immediately after and largely through V's perspective (with a joke about them letting new souls go unprocessed while they were focused on V) or ominous and vague in a way which doesn't nail down anything but which does say that Sabine is heavily involved and mixing business with pleasure.

Also if it happened it would be a twist and villains don't speak openly about that sort of thing, because that would be a spoiler.

[Kish]

But how does this work? Where is Nale's soul? Does Sabine know? How could she get access to it? Why would whatever lower-planes being that's torturing it agree to give it to her?

She literally works for archfiends, and she has a huge advantage over every other succubus in that area: if it turns out he's in Hades or the Nine Hells, she could get dispensation from Nero or Lee. I don't think we're going to see Nale again, but "The IFCC couldn't retrieve his soul from whichever Lower Plane they've gone to" isn't the reason why.