A thread of loose ends

[Ruck]

She literally works for archfiends, and she has a huge advantage over every other succubus in that area: if it turns out he's in Hades or the Nine Hells, she could get dispensation from Nero or Lee. I don't think we're going to see Nale again, but "The IFCC couldn't retrieve his soul from whichever Lower Plane they've gone to" isn't the reason why.

But even this, I feel like, glosses over the details. What's the procedure here? How do they find his soul among the many? Is whoever is actually in charge of torturing Nale's soul or whatever going to just go "Oh, okay" if Sabine asks for it for the IFCC? Do they carry that much weight? I don't know.

(I think there are quite a few reasons we won't see Nale, and the practical questions are more of a footnote to the bigger point that there's no place for him in this story anymore.)

[brian 333]

I am torn on this because Nale's current ending is so excellent and having him come back in any form would really undermine it, but it also feels like an easy way to have Sabine get some back-up for her final play that also brings the story full circle so it makes a lot of sense.

For what it's worth I had the same objections about Crystal and her second death was also pretty satisfying, so I'm sure if Rich did it he could make it work.



I am not arguing against Roy and Xykon having a final showdown, that's an extremely safe prediction.

But I don't see any reason it has to be at the Astral Fortress. It's not like Rich has to work around someone else's setting choices, he has complete control over the final dungeon and what the arena will look like, and the Snarl being a reality warper gives him even more options. His previous one-on-one duels were constructed in such a way that they felt extremely natural. He built the story around getting Roy into places where he could fight on top of an undead dragon or in a gladiatorial arena or against his best friend in a temple at the summit of a mountain.

I don't really see any of that logistical work for bringing the final showdown to the Astral Fortress and I don't see the need. There is nothing of value plot-wise at the astral fortress, it's frankly way less dramatic than a fight at the final gate or in the unraveling threads of the creation.

I do not disagree. I only wish to recall that before the dramatic ending of the Godsmoot, there was no plot-relevant reason to go to Firmament. Before Durkon got vamped, if anyone would have suggested Firmament was on the list of plot-relevant locations they would have met with similar arguments.

As of now there is no reason to go to the Astral Fortress. Things will change. Will they change in such a way that The Astral Fortress becomes a necessary stop? I don't know. But I know that one could cherry pick postings on this forum about what The Giant would not do, only to see it done!

[Errorname]

I do not disagree. I only wish to recall that before the dramatic ending of the Godsmoot, there was no plot-relevant reason to go to Firmament. Before Durkon got vamped, if anyone would have suggested Firmament was on the list of plot-relevant locations they would have met with similar arguments.

Except, you know, the two prophecies saying that Durkon would return home posthumously / bringing death and destruction which were introduced early on. There's also just obvious dramatic value in going to the hometown of one of your main characters that doesn't exist for an fortress in the middle of nowhere with nothing of value inside it.

[brian 333]

Except, you know, the two prophecies saying that Durkon would return home posthumously / bringing death and destruction which were introduced early on. There's also just obvious dramatic value in going to the hometown of one of your main characters that doesn't exist for an fortress in the middle of nowhere with nothing of value inside it.

We have similar, (less specific but similar,) foreshadowing of the Astral Tower. How many pointed to Thor's statement, "But it probably won't come up," as a sure sign that it will come up and be important?

And how do you know there is nothing of value in the fortress? Nobody knew about Thor's blessed hammer and gear in the temple of Firmament, until Durkon unlocked the secret hidey-place. But there it was.

Finally, if Durkon died in the final battle to save Belkar from his fate, the party might have brought his body home for a proper burial in the tomb with his father. We'd have weeped like a 20 year old bride at the wealthy octogenarian's funeral in that panel of the denouement. There was no plot-relevant reason for vampire Durkon to go there, except that that was what the author wanted.

Again, I'm not saying that you are wrong. I'm saying that your reasoning is not as conclusive as you might wish.

[Errorname]

We have similar, (less specific but similar,) foreshadowing of the Astral Tower. How many pointed to Thor's statement, "But it probably won't come up," as a sure sign that it will come up and be important?

See, I saw the "it probably won't come up" as a joke about how the Astral Fortress will not matter. It was an excuse to buy the Order time in the race for Girard's gate and a way for Xykon to think he'd secured his phylactery and that's likely the extent of it's importance.

And how do you know there is nothing of value in the fortress? Nobody knew about Thor's blessed hammer and gear in the temple of Firmament, until Durkon unlocked the secret hidey-place. But there it was.

Because we know the thing the Fortress exists to protect is not actually at the Fortress.

Finally, if Durkon died in the final battle to save Belkar from his fate, the party might have brought his body home for a proper burial in the tomb with his father. We'd have weeped like a 20 year old bride at the wealthy octogenarian's funeral in that panel of the denouement. There was no plot-relevant reason for vampire Durkon to go there, except that that was what the author wanted.

If you don't factor in Durkon's section of 'On the Origin of PCs' which reveals the prophecy that he would return home bearing death and destruction that got him exiled, sure.

[Peelee]

We have similar, (less specific but similar,) foreshadowing of the Astral Tower. How many pointed to Thor's statement, "But it probably won't come up," as a sure sign that it will come up and be important?

And how do you know there is nothing of value in the fortress? Nobody knew about Thor's blessed hammer and gear in the temple of Firmament, until Durkon unlocked the secret hidey-place. But there it was.

Finally, if Durkon died in the final battle to save Belkar from his fate, the party might have brought his body home for a proper burial in the tomb with his father. We'd have weeped like a 20 year old bride at the wealthy octogenarian's funeral in that panel of the denouement. There was no plot-relevant reason for vampire Durkon to go there, except that that was what the author wanted.

Again, I'm not saying that you are wrong. I'm saying that your reasoning is not as conclusive as you might wish.

Imean, those are all reasons that it's not impossible for the Astral Fortress to appear again or even be a setting they go to, sure. But none of that is a reason that the Astral Fortress is a loose end. Because, again, if the story were to end without ever revisiting it, then that would not create any issues because based on everything we know, it's already resolved. The phylactery is the only known thing supposed to be there and we know it really isn't there, Redcloak has it. Tied up nice and neat. Compare this to Elan's plan for Tarquin - if we never revisit that, if the story ends and we never find out what it was or that hebhas been deposed or killed or imprisoned or anything, that's not resolved. That is a loose thread.

The Astral Fortress, currently, based on everything we know, is not a loose end. It's not impossible for the story to go back there, but in a loose end thread, it doesn't belong. Not anymore than them possibly going back to the Oracle does. Because at this point in the story, that bit is already resolved.

[brian 333]

Imean, those are all reasons that it's not impossible for the Astral Fortress to appear again or even be a setting they go to, sure. But none of that is a reason that the Astral Fortress is a loose end. Because, again, if the story were to end without ever revisiting it, then that would not create any issues because based on everything we know, it's already resolved. The phylactery is the only known thing supposed to be there and we know it really isn't there, Redcloak has it. Tied up nice and neat. Compare this to Elan's plan for Tarquin - if we never revisit that, if the story ends and we never find out what it was or that hebhas been deposed or killed or imprisoned or anything, that's not resolved. That is a loose thread.

The Astral Fortress, currently, based on everything we know, is not a loose end. It's not impossible for the story to go back there, but in a loose end thread, it doesn't belong. Not anymore than them possibly going back to the Oracle does. Because at this point in the story, that bit is already resolved.

I agree. It is not a loose end. And it is not necessary that anyone go there based on what we know now.

I suppose my objection is rooted in general tropes.

In who-done-it mysteries, the killer is almost always confronted with the facts in front of the surviving cast and confesses. Case closed.

In romances the denouement is almost as long as the story as the happy details of everyone's life after the story is painfully recorded with smiley-face O's and heart-dotted I's.

In fantasy adventure, the big bad guy is defeated by a ragtag band of adventurers at the end of their endurance while in his strongest position and on the cusp of victory.
Sauron in LotR
Emperor Palpatine in RotJ and again in RoS
The Horned King in The Black Cauldron
The White Witch in The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe

I suppose Xykon really doesn't have a base of power, but if he did, that's where he should be destroyed. So, while I am not betting on the Astral Fortress, I don't want to rule it out either.

[Errorname]

In fantasy adventure, the big bad guy is defeated by a ragtag band of adventurers at the end of their endurance while in his strongest position and on the cusp of victory.

I suppose Xykon really doesn't have a base of power, but if he did, that's where he should be destroyed. So, while I am not betting on the Astral Fortress, I don't want to rule it out either.

I can see that, but this isn't that sort of fantasy story. Xykon isn't Sauron and he isn't Palpatine, he's not an evil overlord sitting on his throne waiting for the heroes to come get him while his henchmen do all the fighting. The existence of the Snarl changes the calculus, the strongest position for Xykon is at the final gate with the Snarl in his grasp, and he'd only have to retreat back to the Astral Fortress if he failed.

[Provengreil]

I agree. It is not a loose end. And it is not necessary that anyone go there based on what we know now.

I suppose my objection is rooted in general tropes.

As detailed below, I question your assessment of these tropes.

In who-done-it mysteries, the killer is almost always confronted with the facts in front of the surviving cast and confesses. Case closed.

In who-dunnits, there are two main types. Fair-play and clueless, where the audience respectively does and doesn't have enough clues to make a proper guess before the reveal. OOTS follows neither of these types directly as it isn't that type of story. If you're using who dunnits as a metaphor for any greater mysteries, I'm not smelling what the rock is cooking here.

In romances the denouement is almost as long as the story as the happy details of everyone's life after the story is painfully recorded with smiley-face O's and heart-dotted I's.

But OOTS isn't a romance so....ok? Same issue as above.

In fantasy adventure, the big bad guy is defeated by a ragtag band of adventurers at the end of their endurance while in his strongest position and on the cusp of victory.
Sauron in LotR
Emperor Palpatine in RotJ and again in RoS
The Horned King in The Black Cauldron
The White Witch in The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe

What parallels are you drawing to these from OOTS?

1: LOTR: Not a direct combat confrontation, which OOTS might not fully resolve with but will definitely involve.
2: Star Wars: Betrayed by an abused ally (possible, but doesn't really need the OOTS in particular here. That's an entire plotline contained within Team Evil right now).
3: Horned King: I only read a couple books and watched the extremely condensed Disney cartoon movie, so I honestly don't understand your point here.
4: Literally God does it for the heroes by the end (unlikely, even though it is Thor's plan).

I suppose Xykon really doesn't have a base of power, but if he did, that's where he should be destroyed. So, while I am not betting on the Astral Fortress, I don't want to rule it out either.

The "if he did" phrase is doing some world-class heavy lifting in that sentence. Xykon's entire Lichdom has been thematically tied to the gates and Redcloak/TDO's plan. To resolve that story thread anywhere else than the last gate, in whatever condition or circumstance it's in, is the only real play from a Doylist standpoint.

[Errorname]

But OOTS isn't a romance so....ok? Same issue as above.

The romance and mystery examples are to support the idea that stories in a certain genre tend towards specific sorts of endings. The detective breaks down the mystery and confronts the killer, the starstruck lovers get a big moment of romantic catharsis, that sort of thing, and then arguing that the fantasy equivalent is confronting the big evil bad guy in his dark fortress.

I think that's a flawed argument, but it's not saying that OOTS is a romance or whodunnit

[brian 333]

As detailed below, I question your assessment of these tropes.

In who-dunnits, there are two main types. Fair-play and clueless, where the audience respectively does and doesn't have enough clues to make a proper guess before the reveal. OOTS follows neither of these types directly as it isn't that type of story. If you're using who dunnits as a metaphor for any greater mysteries, I'm not smelling what the rock is cooking here.

But OOTS isn't a romance so....ok? Same issue as above.

What parallels are you drawing to these from OOTS?

1: LOTR: Not a direct combat confrontation, which OOTS might not fully resolve with but will definitely involve.
2: Star Wars: Betrayed by an abused ally (possible, but doesn't really need the OOTS in particular here. That's an entire plotline contained within Team Evil right now).
3: Horned King: I only read a couple books and watched the extremely condensed Disney cartoon movie, so I honestly don't understand your point here.
4: Literally God does it for the heroes by the end (unlikely, even though it is Thor's plan).



The "if he did" phrase is doing some world-class heavy lifting in that sentence. Xykon's entire Lichdom has been thematically tied to the gates and Redcloak/TDO's plan. To resolve that story thread anywhere else than the last gate, in whatever condition or circumstance it's in, is the only real play from a Doylist standpoint.

The examples of the tropes are not meant to be reflective of anything in the comic. They are illustrations of my arguments. They show how tropes can define a genre, or a genera's readership can come to expect and even anticipate certain things.

A perfect example of the fantasy trope I wrote about appears in Utterly Dwarfed. Party down, enemy prematurely gloating, the most powerless member of the party does something incredible, good guys win.

Also, Dungeon Crawlin' Fools: surrounded, sword shattered, things looking bad. Useless gesture of outrage results in unexpected victory.

[KorvinStarmast]

Why would whatever lower-planes being that's torturing it agree to give it to her?

She can be very persuasive. It is part of the succubus schtick.

I don't see how the logistics of this are supposed to work. So it mostly seems to me like people just want to find a way to get Nale back in the story. Which I also do not think will happen.

I am one who is not interested in seeing Nale again. Laurin did us all a favor.

In other words, you could do the Return of the King ending where you spin out five or six closure scenes before the curtain.

RotK on film did just that. \
In the words of my son: Dad, is the movie over yet?
Crap, I just realized that this was over 20 years ago.

She literally works for archfiends, and she has a huge advantage over every other succubus in that area: if it turns out he's in Hades or the Nine Hells, she could get dispensation from Nero or Lee. I don't think we're going to see Nale again, but "The IFCC couldn't retrieve his soul from whichever Lower Plane they've gone to" isn't the reason why.

She does have connections, yes.

Xykon isn't Sauron and he isn't Palpatine

Ya don't say.
Xykon is a 13 year old kid whose Sorcerer PC leveled up way too fast and way too high for his emotional maturity level.

[Rollin]

A perfect example of the fantasy trope I wrote about appears in Utterly Dwarfed. Party down, enemy prematurely gloating, the most powerless member of the party does something incredible, good guys win.

The enemy in that instance, you'll recall, celebrate their momentary triumph in a plainly-furnished rental meeting hall to which they have no special connection (indeed, their heroic prisoner steers them to it to minimize the harm they can do in establishing a base), showing that even a perfect example of the trope can take place just about anywhere. It may need to have a dais, though.

[Ruck]

She can be very persuasive. It is part of the succubus schtick.

I'm sure greater demons or devils or whatever they are have encountered enough succubi to not be impressed. If they even still have sexual desire.

[Metastachydium]

Emperor Palpatine in RotJ and again in RoS

I'm pretty sure flamebaiting is against the RULES, Brian!

I suppose Xykon really doesn't have a base of power, but if he did, that's where he should be destroyed.

Closest thing to that is really his own personal Dark Tower in Gobbotopia City (or his backup tower near the other Hobgoblin City at worst).

The existence of the Snarl changes the calculus, the strongest position for Xykon is at the final gate with the Snarl in his grasp, and he'd only have to retreat back to the Astral Fortress if he failed.

…and is at his weakest, yes. Technically, he only ever meant to set foot in there again if his current body was destroyed!

[Peelee]

In fantasy adventure, the big bad guy is defeated by a ragtag band of adventurers at the end of their endurance while in his strongest position and on the cusp of victory.
Sauron in LotR

I've only seen rhe movie, but i believe that description is more appropriate to the first ten minutes of the movie and not the climax of the trilogy near the end.

[Metastachydium]

I've only seen rhe movie, but i believe that description is more appropriate to the first ten minutes of the movie and not the climax of the trilogy near the end.

I'll politely disagree there. Yes, he's just suffered his biggest defeat in some time, but his opponents bled closer to dry. Everyone is rather certain that he can trivially win the battle at the Gates if he bothers, and he only really loses in the end because he bothers to focus on scoring that cheap win instead of intercepting the weird little people with hairy feet which would be even easier. And even then, what seals the deal is really a Gollum-driven fluke.

[Peelee]

I'll politely disagree there. Yes, he's just suffered his biggest defeat in some time, but his opponents bled closer to dry. Everyone is rather certain that he can trivially win the battle at the Gates if he bothers, and he only really loses in the end because he bothers to focus on scoring that cheap win instead of intercepting the weird little people with hairy feet which would be even easier. And even then, what seals the deal is really a Gollum-driven fluke.

Imean, he doesn't even have the Ring, so he's objectively not in his strongest position.

[Metastachydium]

Imean, he doesn't even have the Ring, so he's objectively not in his strongest position.

Fair, but on the flip side, he's very, very close to clearing even that mark and is really about to win.

[Peelee]

Fair, but on the flip side, he's very, very close to clearing even that mark and is really about to win.

Sure. But if we extend even that much of "on the cusp of victory" to Xykon, it would be as they are about to complete the ritual on the Gate, which isn't at The Astral Fortress, so it still fails there regardless. If Xykon retreats to the Astral Fortress (which i maintain he has zero reason to do, unless his phylactery is destroyed and he is aware of this and he is about to be destroyed and still has enough high level spells to run, in which case it's still nigh-impossible for anyone else to follow him), then he is clearly not on the cusp of victory nor in his strongest position. In fact, it would be quite far from the cusp of victory.

[LadyEowyn]

I have a strong suspicion that things are going to go very badly for Gobbotopia as a direct consequence of Redcloak's refusal to quit while he was ahead.

I share this suspicion.

[brian 333]

Sure. But if we extend even that much of "on the cusp of victory" to Xykon, it would be as they are about to complete the ritual on the Gate, which isn't at The Astral Fortress, so it still fails there regardless. If Xykon retreats to the Astral Fortress (which i maintain he has zero reason to do, unless his phylactery is destroyed and he is aware of this and he is about to be destroyed and still has enough high level spells to run, in which case it's still nigh-impossible for anyone else to follow him), then he is clearly not on the cusp of victory nor in his strongest position. In fact, it would be quite far from the cusp of victory.

Again, I do not disagree, but...

Spoiler: Hypothetical Scenario Which Is Definitely Never Going To Happen In Comic But Could.

Show

Xykon discovers the switcheroo and tries to kill Redcloak. The Oots tries to save RC.

Xykon says, "You may have stolen my gate and my phylactery, but in this dungeon I have discovered the secret of the rifts. Soon I will be creating them in the homes of the gods themselves, starting with the plane of The Dark One. And you, Wrong Eye, I shall save just long enough to see me crowned chief of the gods before I end your suffering by destroying you and your entire race!

Teleport!"

[Errorname]

I share this suspicion.

Yeah. It feels like the only thing that might induce an epiphany in Redcloak, having whatever future civilization the goblins end up building not be defined as a slave state founded on the ruins of a mostly noble city they destroyed is probably a necessary thing for the ending, and having Redcloak build his entire future in the shadow of a growing rift that threatens to destroy everything feels like too big of a set-up to not fire.

However it happens I hope Jirix is up to the task of evacuating the city because boy, if he doesn't a lot of people are going to be annihilated.

Spoiler: Hypothetical Scenario Which Is Definitely Never Going To Happen In Comic But Could.

Show

Xykon discovers the switcheroo and tries to kill Redcloak. The Oots tries to save RC.

Xykon says, "You may have stolen my gate and my phylactery, but in this dungeon I have discovered the secret of the rifts. Soon I will be creating them in the homes of the gods themselves, starting with the plane of The Dark One. And you, Wrong Eye, I shall save just long enough to see me crowned chief of the gods before I end your suffering by destroying you and your entire race!

Teleport!"

Credit where it's due, you've found basically the only situation where it would make sense. But I still don't see the actual advantage of this beyond "hey, this way we get to see what Xykon's astral fortress is!", the drama here could all be done equally well in the Final Dungeon and shifting the location either requires a detour to actually get to the new location or it happens instantly, in which case what was the point?

[Ruck]

I have a strong suspicion that things are going to go very badly for Gobbotopia as a direct consequence of Redcloak's refusal to quit while he was ahead.

I share this suspicion.

Just curious as to what y'all mean. From the ominous tone I gather you mostly mean something to do with the enlarged rift above the city, but I didn't know if you specifically meant in that form or just... something bad will happen.

[Peelee]

Also Redcloak had pretty much quit while he was ahead until his god literally told him to get a move on.

[Ruck]

Credit where it's due, you've found basically the only situation where it would make sense. But I still don't see the actual advantage of this beyond "hey, this way we get to see what Xykon's astral fortress is!", the drama here could all be done equally well in the Final Dungeon and shifting the location either requires a detour to actually get to the new location or it happens instantly, in which case what was the point?

Well said. I get the sense people are predicting we'll visit the astral fortress mostly because they want to see what it looks like on the inside.

[Peelee]

Again, I do not disagree, but...

Spoiler: Hypothetical Scenario Which Is Definitely Never Going To Happen In Comic But Could.

Show

Xykon discovers the switcheroo and tries to kill Redcloak. The Oots tries to save RC.

Xykon says, "You may have stolen my gate and my phylactery, but in this dungeon I have discovered the secret of the rifts. Soon I will be creating them in the homes of the gods themselves, starting with the plane of The Dark One. And you, Wrong Eye, I shall save just long enough to see me crowned chief of the gods before I end your suffering by destroying you and your entire race!

Teleport!"

Actually, i have a very simple rebuttal on how it is exceedingly unlikely that even that could happen.

Namely, is there any reason to think that Xykon hasn't Cloistered the Astral Fortress?

[LadyEowyn]

Oh, I might see the problem. I don't think Thor's plan is going to fail because he's wrong about the Four Colours thing, I think Thor's plan is going to fail because the state of the world is going to deteriorate to the point where simply patching the existing rifts with more gates will stop being a viable solution. I don't know how that gets solved, but this story consistently pushes the heroes about as close to utter defeat as they can possibly go before they find some way to win/survive, and stopping Xykon before the last rift is destroyed is not as close to utter defeat as this can go.

I agree, for somewhat different reasons. The four-quiddity thing is going to be essential - the fact that they can’t win without getting the goblins on side is at the thematic heart of OOTS - but Thor’s “continually patch any rifts that show up using the Dark One’s help” (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html) plan is not going to work because it’s too much of a stopgap. It solves the current problem, but not the permanent one.

My theory is that the resolution will involve The Dark One getting to make some permanent contribution to the structure of the world in a way that makes it a four-quiddity world (i.e. no more rifts ever). I don’t know how exactly that would work, but it sems like the resolution that would be consistent with the strip’s themes, integrating the Dark One and goblinoids as equal partners in the world.

Thor says they always intentionally lock themselves out of further changes when they finalize the creation process - but in a dire enough situation, that’s something that could change.

Just curious as to what y'all mean. From the ominous tone I gather you mostly mean something to do with the enlarged rift above the city, but I didn't know if you specifically meant in that form or just... something bad will happen.

What I mean is that I’ve feared for a while that the Rift over Gobbotopia is going to end up swallowing Gobbotopia, and that will be the big moment that prompts Redcloak working with the heroes. It would be the exact illustration of what’s been now pointed out to him several times - that he’s put proving himself right over the well-being of goblins - if his very real success in materially improving their lives was destroyed by his continued pursuit of the Plan. And he does care about goblinoids - Oona recognizes that there’s a real internal conflict there - so this could be something big enough to cause major remorse and a change of perspective.

[Kish]

The Horned King

Spoiler: The Book of Three

Show

was killed by Gwydion while Taran was unconscious. So...no?

[Precure]

The Horned King

Spoiler: The Book of Three

Show

was killed by Gwydion while Taran was unconscious. So...no?

They're talking about The Black Cauldron The Movie, as there is no Horned King in The Black Cauldron The Book.