A thread of loose ends

[Arcane_Secrets]

Major:

Does Redcloak stay loyal to Xykon until the end or does he switch sides?
Does Redcloak die or live? (I'm pretty sure Xykon's permadead no matter what, but I could be surprised on that).
Do they find another way of restabilizing the world with three gates down assuming the fourth isn't destroyed too or is rebooting it their only option?

Medium:

What happens to Roy's father once its found out that he helped conceal details about V?
Does V ever get Ultimate Arcane Power?

Minor:

Does Julio Scoundrel live after his confrontation with Tarquin? Or, in dramatic fashion, does he die/Elan finds out about his death right before the final fight between him and his dad, to further motivate him to fight against his father to a degree that he never has before?

[Metastachydium]

I would say that the drama of "will V escape from the semi-elemental plane of ranch dressing" is marginally less important to maintain than the drama of "how do we resolve the central apocalyptic threat of the story".

Then again, we also already kinda know the world will be saved and Elan's prophecy kinda made that explicit. We might as well stop reading!

Sometimes the interesting bit is the how, not the what. "Destroy Xykon forever (preferably by hitting him with a sword)" is also a big goal, and almost as tough a task as "convince Redcloak, of all people, to cooperate", and yet, I somehow don't see Xykon unliving happily ever after or V novaing him and telling Roy to just grow up in the end, with the morale being "be a full-caster or get the hell out".

Xykon will escape to his Astral Fortress as a last resort and Roy will follow him there. In there they will have their final fight, 1 vs 1, a rematch of the fight on Azure City.

Wron address there; the Predictions thread is the fourth one down the lane.

* What will happen to Belkar?

Dies. You're welcome.

* What happened between Soon and his team?

Wrong question.

* Who will actually rule Greysky City?

The MOBs.

Major:

Does Redcloak stay loyal to Xykon until the end or does he switch sides?

He hasn't been loyal since about… Well, a lot of time.
Does Redcloak die or live? (I'm pretty sure Xykon's permadead no matter what, but I could be surprised on that).

Does V ever get Ultimate Arcane Power?

Already did. It was a poor match.

[Precure]

Why?

It would be cool.

How?

By following the same dimensional path Xykon use.

[Peelee]

It would be cool.

I'm glad The Giant doesn't write based on this because that would turn out a really poor story.

By following the same dimensional path Xykon use.

A simple teleport could completely prevent that. And there's no tactical benefit to going to that fortress over any random place in Stickworld via teleport, which cannot be followed, so Xykon would have to suddenly become staggeringly incompetent.

So it wouldn't even be cool.

[brian 333]

Why?

A. To retrieve the soul gem containing Dorukon and Lirian so they can learn how to seal rifts.

B. Because fighting Xykon there makes more sense than waiting for him to rearm and go on a vengeance quest beginning in some unknown part of the world inflicting an unknowable amount of damage before the heroes are aware of his location.

C. To complete his destruction before Xykon has time to create a new phylactery.

D. To prevent Xykon from tearing rifts in the Astral and outer planes which he learns to do after 'discovering' the loose threads in The Final Dungeon™.

How?

1. Durkon can Plane Shift and Wind Walk them there.

2. Serini has items.

3. One or more OotS members could die and their afterlife guides could let them go after Xykon on the Astral Plane.

4. Xykon could give Roy the Not-Thad treatment.

[hroþila]

All of that requires Xykon withdrawing to the Fortress before being destroyed. Since he believes he will regenerate safely in the Fortress (rather than, say, around Redcloak's neck, terribly vulnerable to whatever enemies just destroyed him, not to mention to Redcloak himself), it is not immediately clear why he'd bother withdrawing to the Fortress instead of fighting on

[No good @ names]

Has anyone mentioned

Spoiler: start of darkness

Show

Xykon charming MitD to eat Redcloak and spit out the phylactery if Redcloak betrayed him?

Not in this thread specifically, but one opportunity the Order has to win over Redcloak is to turn Xykon against him. O-Chul and/or Belkar then can stop MitD from the eating Redcloak (at the cost of Belkar’s life).

Xykon’s not worried about the phylactery though. As Peelee said, he thinks it’s in his Astral Fortress. Therefore he’s not worried about Redcloak’s survival beyond Redcloak being half of “The Ritual”.

All of that requires Xykon withdrawing to the Fortress before being destroyed. Since he believes he will regenerate safely in the Fortress (rather than, say, around Redcloak's neck, terribly vulnerable to whatever enemies just destroyed him, not to mention to Redcloak himself), it is not immediately clear why he'd bother withdrawing to the Fortress instead of fighting on

+1

Major:

Does Redcloak stay loyal to Xykon until the end or does he switch sides?
Does Redcloak die or live? (I'm pretty sure Xykon's permadead

There’s no guarantee that Jirix or any other goblin cleric automatically becomes the Dark One’s new High Priest without the Dark One having some say or veto of it. So I don’t think “Kill Redcloak and make peace with Jirix” is viable.

A happy ending for Elan pretty much requires the Dark One reconciling with the rest of the Gods. The only narrative I see that happening is through Redcloak growing as a character, and the “good” characters/factions (e.g. Azurites) addressing the grievances of the goblins. The latter will happen because the author has explicitly said that’s something he wants his story to explore.



Xykon’s probably going to the fires below. Because he’d do pretty much anything to avoid that fate.



Also, a thread of loose ends is a snarl, is it not?

[Peelee]

A. To retrieve the soul gem containing Dorukon and Lirian so they can learn how to seal rifts.

B. Because fighting Xykon there makes more sense than waiting for him to rearm and go on a vengeance quest beginning in some unknown part of the world inflicting an unknowable amount of damage before the heroes are aware of his location.

C. To complete his destruction before Xykon has time to create a new phylactery.

D. To prevent Xykon from tearing rifts in the Astral and outer planes which he learns to do after 'discovering' the loose threads in The Final Dungeon™.

None of this explains why Xykon would go there. Which was what the "why?" was addressing.

Also, if you want to go into why the Order would to there...
A. Putting anything other than the phylactery in there is strategically poor, as now there's more than one thing people may want to find instead of only one thing.
A₂. They already have an alternate plan which will seal the rifts better, as we know that the Gates are not a permanent solution.

B. This doesn't address why Xykon would go there (strategically unbelievably stupid, for the exact reason you put in your B), and also doesn't address how the Order would find it.

C. Same as B

D. Same as B, and also wholly unsupported conjecture on top of it.

1. Durkon can Plane Shift and Wind Walk them there.

2. Serini has items.

3. One or more OotS members could die and their afterlife guides could let them go after Xykon on the Astral Plane.

4. Xykon could give Roy the Not-Thad treatment.

1. Doesn't address how they don't know where it is.

2. See 1.

3. See 1, also, why just the Order? Why not any and all dead people in afterlives?

4. To his own secret dungeon? Yet again, this would require Xykon to suddenly become incredibly stupid.


Every explanation for Xykon returning to the fortress requires him to discard the entire reason he made the fortress to start with. Every explanation for the Order to follow him there requires the decision to put the fortress on an infinite, featureless plain a trivially simple thing to defeat (mind, this was deemed a good enough method for the gods themselves to hide the single most important secret they hold. So, ya know, probably not something that is trivially easy to bypass.

Again, it's not impossible for them to go there. I think it's insanely unlikely. But, regardless, as of right now, it's not a loose thread. It's a tied up thread. If we later find out that the gem is there, poor writing though that would be, then it would be a loose thread. But as of the current strip, the purpose of the fortress has been negatively completed. If the story ended without anyone going, nothing about it would be unresolved.

[Precure]

I'm glad The Giant doesn't write based on this...

Pretty weird thing to say. Rule of cool is always was and will be important for this story. Why would Xykon go there? To escape from being killed. Why would Roy follow? To kill him. Why would it happen there? Because Rich likes one-a-one fights and it's a good place for that.

[Peelee]

Pretty weird thing to say. Rule of cool is always was and will be important for this story.

And no important story decisions were made solely on "because it would be cool", which was the only reason you gave.

Why would Xykon go there? To escape from being killed. Why would Roy follow? To kill him. Why would it takes place there? Because Rich likes one-a-one fights and it's a good place.

Why would Xykon not escape literally anywhere else? And i didn't ask why Roy would follow him, i asked how. Roy doesn't know where it is. Even if Xykon was somehow temporarily stupid enough to go to a secret location set up specifically for him to not be at until already destroyed, Roy isn't magical. And if Xykon is weak enough for Roy alone to destroy, why not do it before he escapes? He's got that fancy maneuver that prevents Xykon from using magic, after all. And hey, even if Roy does make it there alone, in literally the last place Xykon would want to go, then Roy is stuck there with no way to return, because again, non-magical. But hey, let's assume he somehow is able to, because why not. Now we have Xykon running ot point B, being killed there, and Roy returning. That's not even cool. That's at best a pointless location change for no benefit and at worst tedious.

Rule of cool is your only argument, and even then, it's not even cool. In the scenario you yourself describe, it's a pointless diversion with no benefit over going anywhere else or not going at all.

[Ruck]

And no important story decisions were made solely on "because it would be cool", which was the only reason you gave.

...

Rule of cool is your only argument, and even then, it's not even cool. In the scenario you yourself describe, it's a pointless diversion with no benefit over going anywhere else or not going at all.

I have long railed against the idea that "wouldn't it be cool if..." is a good enough reason for something to happen in a story. Particularly this story; I don't agree at all that it runs on "rule of cool." It runs on its strong dramatic structure, where actions have consequences and the events are plausible and make sense within the story.

Peelee's already laid out why going to the astral fortress doesn't make sense, and I agree.

(edit: I meant to mention that "cool" is very much in the eye of the beholder, and I, personally, don't find implausible events, pointless ties between random characters, etc. to be cool.)

[Precure]

And no important story decisions were made solely on "because it would be cool", which was the only reason you gave.

Yeah, when you sneakily add a solely to any argument, it would seem silly.

[brian 333]

[Speculation]
Xykon took the fake phylactery to his fortress. Any undead dependent upon a magic item for survival should be able to examine an item and know it is a fake, but even if he had to perform tests, he would still be able to determine if it is a fake or not. Why would he do so? Because he has never trusted Redcloak.

It would be an incredibly stupid act to hide a fake, spend months protecting it, and never realize what it is. But why didn't Xykon destroy RC when he found out? Because he made a replacement, hid it in his fortress, and now RC carries the fake. The strategic value in not confronting RC over the issue is, so long as RC thinks he has leverage, he is not actively working toward getting leverage.
[/Speculation]

Now, about the secret fortress on an empty plain in the middle of nowhere.

On the Astral Plane, distance and direction are meaningless. The security of the fortress is only in the fact that nobody knows about it. Once a character does, the character needs only to go to the Astral Plane and will himself to go there. It is then a matter of time, as the character perceives it, which depends on how familiar the character is with the destination. Xykon is a virtual step away from the tower from anywhere on the Astral Plane. Roy might be several weeks away.

I am not particularly invested in the idea that we must go to the Astral Fortress. It would be cool if we do and it would be a narrative bookend to have the story end where it began, with a party of adventurers crawling through a dungeon on a quest to destroy a lich.

At this point it is not narratively necessary that we do so, but it could be in the future. Just like the trip to Firmament was narratively unnecessary until the Godsmoot made it necessary, circumstances could arise that make a trip to Xykon's Honeycomb Hideout necessary. At that point, every objection so far presented vanishes. I don't know exactly why or how it would come to be because I am not the author, but I could postulate a virtual infinite list of explanations which could be easily dismissed because they are merely speculative. Dismissing speculation is a long way from proof that it cannot happen in some other way.

So, it is plausible that the OotS goes to the Astral Fortress. There has been foreshadowing and at least one member of the party is aware of it.

As of this moment, there is no narrative requirement. The story could end without it. Just as the story, as of the misplaced message episode, could have ended with the party having never gone to Firmament.

[Sir_Norbert]

I am not particularly invested in the idea that we must go to the Astral Fortress. It would be cool if we do and it would be a narrative bookend to have the story end where it began, with a party of adventurers crawling through a dungeon on a quest to destroy a lich.

But that would undermine the coolness of the Final Dungeon (the one they are currently in) being a call-back to Dorukan's Dungeon....

[KorvinStarmast]

How?

Here is a guess: it will be a Weapon of Legacy power that triggers when Roy gets mad that Xykon has escaped him again. Something like a Nemesis/marked enemy/favored enemy kind of skill or feature, details to be Rich-designed.

[Peelee]

Yeah, when you sneakily add a solely to any argument, it would seem silly.

I addressed every reason you gave. If you think only one reason is silly, then you're complaining about yourself.

Here is a guess: it will be a Weapon of Legacy power that triggers when Roy gets mad that Xykon has escaped him again. Something like a Nemesis/marked enemy/favored enemy kind of skill or feature, details to be Rich-designed.

That's the first actual explanation that tries to make sense within the story, which I appreciate.

[Errorname]

Then again, we also already kinda know the world will be saved and Elan's prophecy kinda made that explicit. We might as well stop reading!

Sometimes the interesting bit is the how, not the what. "Destroy Xykon forever (preferably by hitting him with a sword)" is also a big goal, and almost as tough a task as "convince Redcloak, of all people, to cooperate", and yet, I somehow don't see Xykon unliving happily ever after or V novaing him and telling Roy to just grow up in the end, with the morale being "be a full-caster or get the hell out".

So the thing is that Thor's proposed method for resolving the matter of the Snarl is quite undramatic. Xykon gets defeated, Redcloak changes sides, and then several weeks of busywork traveling the world and sealing the prison. It's not going to be that simple, and if it is that simple then what's the point of complicating the Snarl with the planet within the rifts?

Pretty weird thing to say. Rule of cool is always was and will be important for this story. Why would Xykon go there? To escape from being killed. Why would Roy follow? To kill him. Why would it happen there? Because Rich likes one-a-one fights and it's a good place for that.

I see the reasoning for why "epic final duel in villain's secret fortress" sounds cool for a finale, it is, but if we're making predictions we should be looking at the story as written and seeing if the writer is actually setting that up.

And it doesn't really seem like it is? The Astral Fortress is very far away from the Final Dungeon, there's nothing in it of actual plot significance, Xykon's not going to flee somewhere he wants nobody to ever find when he has perfectly viable alternatives.

At this point it is not narratively necessary that we do so, but it could be in the future. Just like the trip to Firmament was narratively unnecessary until the Godsmoot made it necessary, circumstances could arise that make a trip to Xykon's Honeycomb Hideout necessary. At that point, every objection so far presented vanishes. I don't know exactly why or how it would come to be because I am not the author, but I could postulate a virtual infinite list of explanations which could be easily dismissed because they are merely speculative. Dismissing speculation is a long way from proof that it cannot happen in some other way.

The trip to Durkon's hometown became narratively necessary the second the story introduced a prophecy saying Durkon would return home posthumously/bringing death and destruction.

Meanwhile every mention of the Astral Fortress has been accompanied by details that imply it will not actually be relevant.

[Provengreil]

Now, about the secret fortress on an empty plain in the middle of nowhere.

On the Astral Plane, distance and direction are meaningless. The security of the fortress is only in the fact that nobody knows about it. Once a character does, the character needs only to go to the Astral Plane and will himself to go there. It is then a matter of time, as the character perceives it, which depends on how familiar the character is with the destination. Xykon is a virtual step away from the tower from anywhere on the Astral Plane. Roy might be several weeks away.

I feel like this actually works as a strike against going to the fortress. The most anyone in the order knows about it is an offhand comment from Thor that it exists, and it's not clear if Durkon or Minrah even remember, given how big of a data dump he gave them just moments later. So while they could maybe find the place(not sure if that comment counts for "knowing" in this context), the idea that Xykon is still there becomes increasingly difficult to sell.

[Metastachydium]

So the thing is that Thor's proposed method for resolving the matter of the Snarl is quite undramatic. Xykon gets defeated, Redcloak changes sides, and then several weeks of busywork traveling the world and sealing the prison. It's not going to be that simple,

You speak as though you were under the false impression that defeating Xykon and convincing Redcloak to cooperate are one and the same thing, and the latter will follow smoothly andm immediately from the former. The difficulty in getting through to Redcloak is not his loyalty to Xykon, nor is he even guaranteed to switch sides should he become convinced that the Plan cannot succeed, due to Plan B being a thing, and that's ignoring his entire complicated mindset and mindscape.

Further, you are conflating the climax with the denouement. Is defeating Xykon not dramatic? Is getting Redcloak to sublimate his drives into something actually productive not dramatic? If the endgoal of Thor's plan is reached, fixing the world through "several weeks of busywork" will be the compressed epilogue, not the exciting climax.

and if it is that simple then what's the point of complicating the Snarl with the planet within the rifts?

I don't know. What I do know is that it is rather unlikely to be a way to tell the goblinoid subplot to go sit quietly in the corner because it's not important anymore, let alone a means to give us the shiny morale of "segregation was always the answer" as it is often proposed.

[Errorname]

Further, you are conflating the climax with the denouement. Is defeating Xykon not dramatic? Is getting Redcloak to sublimate his drives into something actually productive not dramatic? If the endgoal of Thor's plan is reached, fixing the world through "several weeks of busywork" will be the compressed epilogue, not the exciting climax.

Dealing with the Snarl in a compressed epilogue after the actual main villain is already beaten would not be particularly dramatic, no. That wouldn't be a problem in a story where the Snarl just did not matter as anything but a doomsday counter, but when you end a book on "perhaps we do not know everything we ought about the task we are undertaking" that sort of demands a compelling answer.

The World within the Rifts has to matter, and if Thor's plan of just spot welding the rifts closed for a second time works then it isn't going to.

I don't know. What I do know is that it is rather unlikely to be a way to tell the goblinoid subplot to go sit quietly in the corner because it's not important anymore, let alone a means to give us the shiny morale of "segregation was always the answer" as it is often proposed.

I've never claimed it was going to be. I don't think Thor's plan is going to work because I don't think solving the matter of the Snarl is going to be as simple as just patching up the gates again, and I think the last gate will probably get destroyed, but it has nothing to do with thinking Redcloak isn't important or that the story is going to end with the moral that 'segregation good'. You're arguing against points I wasn't making.

[Metastachydium]

Dealing with the Snarl in a compressed epilogue after the actual main villain is already beaten would not be particularly dramatic, no. That wouldn't be a problem in a story where the Snarl just did not matter as anything but a doomsday counter,

Well…

but when you end a book on "perhaps we do not know everything we ought about the task we are undertaking" that sort of demands a compelling answer.

I mean, "[c]an we even be certain this »Snarl« really exists" from the end of the book after that book kinda did get a very compeeling answer. Yes, the planet complicates matters, no, I don't think it neccessarily complicates things to the degree you would think it does.

I've never claimed it was going to be. I don't think Thor's plan is going to work because I don't think solving the matter of the Snarl is going to be as simple as just patching up the gates again, and I think the last gate will probably get destroyed, but it has nothing to do with thinking Redcloak isn't important or that the story is going to end with the moral that 'segregation good'. You're arguing against points I wasn't making.

I'm not saying you said any of that. I'm saying I'm yet to see so how the planet thing could just throw the Four Colour Cooperation Collective in a compelling way. That "solutions" I've seen so far are kinda very horrible is something I brought up to illustrate that point.

[Peelee]

Dealing with the Snarl in a compressed epilogue after the actual main villain is already beaten would not be particularly dramatic, no.

Dealing with the Snarl Macguffin in a compressed epilogue after the actual main villain is already beaten would not be particularly dramatic, no.

[Aquillion]

[Speculation]
Xykon took the fake phylactery to his fortress. Any undead dependent upon a magic item for survival should be able to examine an item and know it is a fake, but even if he had to perform tests, he would still be able to determine if it is a fake or not. Why would he do so? Because he has never trusted Redcloak.

It would be an incredibly stupid act to hide a fake, spend months protecting it, and never realize what it is. But why didn't Xykon destroy RC when he found out? Because he made a replacement, hid it in his fortress, and now RC carries the fake. The strategic value in not confronting RC over the issue is, so long as RC thinks he has leverage, he is not actively working toward getting leverage.
[/Speculation]

While of course OOTS sometimes has its own rules, in 3.5e a lich cannot create a second phylactery under any circumstances. From Libre Mortis:

A lich can construct only a single phylactery. A lich whose phylactery is destroyed suffers no harm, but cannot construct a new one. If a lich without a phylactery is slain, the lich is forever destroyed.

It has his soul in it, he can't just arbitrarily decide to replace it with something new - certainly not without access to the phylactery itself.

Plus, we have a strong indicator that that's also how it works in OOTS. When Xykon's phylactery fell into the sewers he freaked out and spent massive amounts of time and effort retrieving it; if he could just create a new one, that wouldn't have been necessary.

[Errorname]

Well…

The Snarl not being the focus of the story doesn't mean it isn't important, in his own words the significance of the Snarl is how it's presence alters the shape of the story and the goals of the characters. That's not at all incompatible with a late game twist about what the Snarl is that opens up a different path to victory.

I'm not saying you said any of that. I'm saying I'm yet to see so how the planet thing could just throw the Four Colour Cooperation Collective in a compelling way. That "solutions" I've seen so far are kinda very horrible is something I brought up to illustrate that point.

Oh, I might see the problem. I don't think Thor's plan is going to fail because he's wrong about the Four Colours thing, I think Thor's plan is going to fail because the state of the world is going to deteriorate to the point where simply patching the existing rifts with more gates will stop being a viable solution. I don't know how that gets solved, but this story consistently pushes the heroes about as close to utter defeat as they can possibly go before they find some way to win/survive, and stopping Xykon before the last rift is destroyed is not as close to utter defeat as this can go.

Dealing with the Snarl Macguffin in a compressed epilogue after the actual main villain is already beaten would not be particularly dramatic, no.

If that was all the resolution the Ark got, if Indiana just beat the bad guys and took the treasure and put it in a warehouse, I would call that not particularly dramatic. However, that scene is preceded by an insanely iconic climax where the Ark plays a pivotal role where the movie pays off all the set up of the Ark's power.

The Ark is technically not even a Macguffin, not in the original definition at least, it's properties aren't irrelevant and you couldn't easily swap it out for something different with no effect on the plot. True Macguffins aren't bad, nothing wrong with watching some fun characters kill each other over a big diamond or something, but it's not what the Ark is and I don't think it's what the Snarl is either.

[Peelee]

If that was all the resolution the Ark got, if Indiana just beat the bad guys and took the treasure and put it in a warehouse, I would call that not particularly dramatic. However, that scene is preceded by an insanely iconic climax where the Ark plays a pivotal role where the movie pays off all the set up of the Ark's power.

The Ark is technically not even a Macguffin, not in the original definition at least, it's properties aren't irrelevant and you couldn't easily swap it out for something different with no effect on the plot. True Macguffins aren't bad, nothing wrong with watching some fun characters kill each other over a big diamond or something, but it's not what the Ark is and I don't think it's what the Snarl is either.

So you're saying the Ark is a great analog for the Snarl, and also that it's easily possible for a compressed epilogue after the villain has already been defeated to be dramatic for the Ark (and, thus, for the Snarl).

So what, is your issue that it hasn't happened yet and thus never will or can? Because this seems pretty directly relevant to your statement that it cannot be dramatic.

Also, ignoring that the linked scene is arguably much more iconic than the island scene.

[Errorname]

So you're saying the Ark is a great analog for the Snarl. Also that it's easily possible for a compressed epilogue after the villain has already been defeated to be dramatic for the Ark (and, thus, for the Snarl).

If you ignore the entire point of what I was saying, sure. The ending scene gets all of it's meaning because it's following up on the big climactic sequence where all the set-up about the Ark gets paid off in explosive fashion. With a different climax, that epilogue would still work, but it would play very differently and much more anticlimactically. It'd turn the ark into a true macguffin and make all the portent about it's terrible power mere flavour.

Also, ignoring that the linked scene is arguably much more iconic than the island scene.

Disputable, although frankly neither are the most iconic scene of the movie, but there's no point to arguing about that, they both exist as part of the same movie and if you're only looking at the epilogue you are getting an incomplete picture.

So what, is your issue that it hasn't happened yet and thus never will or can? Because this seems pretty directly relevant to your statement that it cannot be dramatic.

I think resolving the rifts in the epilogue after the actual conflict is over is kind of undramatic in comparison to weaving it into the actual climax, it's the sort of thing that you do with something that doesn't matter. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, I could imagine a version of this story that really is just stopping Xykon and convincing Redcloak to help the good guys that's still a very good comic.

But as far as predicting where the comic is going it really doesn't feel like how it's going to go. Because the Rifts and the Snarl are a big deal, there's strong set-up for a big reveal with the world within the rifts, and a great thing about fantasy stories is that as a writer you have the tools to reverse the apocalypse in a way that a more grounded story doesn't.

[Peelee]

If you ignore the entire point of what I was saying, sure.

I'm trying to point out that the exact scenario you describe as " ot dramatic" is a perfectly fine denoumont, using an example from arguably one of the best and most famous endings in cinema. Yes, other things need to happen first. You are expressly discounting the idea of other things happening first and only saying "this would be bad" despite a direct analog to it not only being bad but being famously good.

I'm not ignoring your point. I'm saying your point is bad.

[Errorname]

You are expressly discounting the idea of other things happening first and only saying "this would be bad" despite a direct analog to it not only being bad but being famously good.

Maybe I'm not making myself clear, but my position is not "this won't happen because it would be garbage" and "this doesn't feel right to me and I think it's going to happen like this instead".

My thinking is simply that because of the setup of a world within the rifts there is going to be a big reveal, and in order for that to really mean something in the same way as previous big moments it needs to shift the direction of the narrative, which I think requires taking the previous assumed solution of "just patch the rifts" off the board. That's just what feels right to me.

To me, Thor's plan working means (to continue the analogue) the Ark never gets opened. And I do think that's a less dramatic (which does not mean bad) way of wrapping up this individual plot thread and I don't think that's what the story up until now is setting up.

[Peelee]

Maybe I'm not making myself clear, but my position is not "this won't happen because it would be garbage" and "this doesn't feel right to me and I think it's going to happen like this instead".

Ok, that makes a lot more sense.

To me, Thor's plan working means (to continue the analogue) the Ark never gets opened.

I don't think they're necessarily mutually exclusive. Though, that being said, i have no idea how anything would get resolved satisfactorily given the systemic goblinoid oppression outside of them and TDO fighting a perpetually uphill battle against the status quo without wrecking everything, so i can't really offer any competing ideas on how it will all end.

[Metastachydium]

The Snarl not being the focus of the story doesn't mean it isn't important, in his own words the significance of the Snarl is how it's presence alters the shape of the story and the goals of the characters. That's not at all incompatible with a late game twist about what the Snarl is that opens up a different path to victory.

Okay. I'll readily grant that much. It isn't incompatible with anything as much as it is unneccessary. Yes, it could, in theory, go that way. The Snarl' presence would alter the shape of the story and it would still be about what the caharacters cook from that; but the thing is, the Snarl's presence is already doing that, big time, and the characters doing what they do about it now has the added bonus of being a handy path towards staisfyingly wrapping up the monster races subplot and Redcloak's personal arc. It would just be an extra step in the process and I'm not sure what, exactly, it could add.

Oh, I might see the problem. I don't think Thor's plan is going to fail because he's wrong about the Four Colours thing, I think Thor's plan is going to fail because the state of the world is going to deteriorate to the point where simply patching the existing rifts with more gates will stop being a viable solution. I don't know how that gets solved, but this story consistently pushes the heroes about as close to utter defeat as they can possibly go before they find some way to win/survive, and stopping Xykon before the last rift is destroyed is not as close to utter defeat as this can go.

Ah. I've good news then! The Four Colour plan doesn't involve creating Gates (complicated, fragile magical sealing mechanisms), but rather simply resstoring the fabric of reality to its pre-Rift state, except with stronger threads. Instead of something one could blow up by hitting it too hard, we get a seamless patch even the Snarl cannot damage.

Now, if said fabric gets damaged to a degree that it becomes literally impossible to just sew it back together… Well, the world falls apart and our heroes die. The End. I don't see that happening.

If that was all the resolution the Ark got, if Indiana just beat the bad guys and took the treasure and put it in a warehouse, I would call that not particularly dramatic. However, that scene is preceded by an insanely iconic climax where the Ark plays a pivotal role where the movie pays off all the set up of the Ark's power.

But then… We have seen the power of the Snarl at work. We have seen rapidly expanding tears in spacetime blotting out the sky and even those tentacles lashing out to murderize people and eat their souls. It's already not an inert box in an even more inert box.