Vampire: The Masquerade - Best Edition for a Noob?

[Mechalich]

As for realism:

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/23/us/mo...nia/index.html

Here is a case where a single 90 lb mountain lion killed one athletic young man and injured another while suffering no injuries in turn.

I sincerely doubt that 4 people with pocket knives would fare any better against an animal close to 10 times that size.

And here is a story of a group of five middle-aged women fighting off a mountain lion. They survived the initial attack, and then pinned the animal beneath a bike. Large cats, except for lions, are ambush predators, making a sudden rush from concealment. If the initial attack succeeds, they gain position to bite into the neck and inflict a kill/crush bite that will be fatal unless the target can throw them off (which they are quite skilled at preventing). However, if that initial attack fails, they are very vulnerable. Cats will generally avoid attacking at all unless they can achieve surprise, which is why in a cougar encounter it is important to remain facing the animal.

Yes, tigers are larger than cougars, but not by 10x. Adult male tigers weigh in around 500 lbs, and females only around 400 lbs. A group of four adult humans will probably outmass a tiger in the aggregate. Pocket knives are small, but a ~4 inch blade is more than capable of inflicting quite serious damage by slicing tendons and opening large blood vessels. Baseball bats are superior in this scenario though, since they can easily break bones and are easier to land strikes with. Tigers do have a well-established record of attacks on humans, but these attacks are almost always from ambush and against lone individuals.

[Talakeal]

And here is a story of a group of five middle-aged women fighting off a mountain lion. They survived the initial attack, and then pinned the animal beneath a bike. Large cats, except for lions, are ambush predators, making a sudden rush from concealment. If the initial attack succeeds, they gain position to bite into the neck and inflict a kill/crush bite that will be fatal unless the target can throw them off (which they are quite skilled at preventing). However, if that initial attack fails, they are very vulnerable. Cats will generally avoid attacking at all unless they can achieve surprise, which is why in a cougar encounter it is important to remain facing the animal.

Yes, tigers are larger than cougars, but not by 10x. Adult male tigers weigh in around 500 lbs, and females only around 400 lbs. A group of four adult humans will probably outmass a tiger in the aggregate. Pocket knives are small, but a ~4 inch blade is more than capable of inflicting quite serious damage by slicing tendons and opening large blood vessels. Baseball bats are superior in this scenario though, since they can easily break bones and are easier to land strikes with. Tigers do have a well-established record of attacks on humans, but these attacks are almost always from ambush and against lone individuals.

Look at the woman's face, that cougar got her good. If it had been a tiger, I doubt she would have survived.

That is the thing about CoD; dodge is so good that the attacker simply cannot touch the defender when outnumbered, let alone put them down.

[Morgaln]

(I am AFB right now so going from memory; I am sure I could figure out some of these answers on my own with in depth study, but some are still unclear)

I am curious about how a werewolf takes damage, and at what point they are conscious and can act.

A crinos werewolf is attacked with a mundane, non-silver, clubs. What happens? How many health levels do I have to inflict to knock it out? How many health levels do I have to inflict to kill it?

If it is incapacitated by bashing, further damage bleed over as lethal? How does this interact with regeneration? Does it heal the bashing at the bottom of its health track, the lethal at the top, or both? Will it wake up again?

To kill it, do I have to fill its track with aggravated, or will lethal do?

At what point does it get the (I forgot the exact term, the roll to see if you can regen as a last stand)? Will it be conscious for this?

When the players knocked out the werewolf with improvised clubs; they wanted to finish it off. I told them this was a bad idea, because they have regeneration and it might wake up again in a frenzy, and so they fortunately didn't go through with it, but mechanically I have no idea how that would have worked.

Note: all of the below is based on the revised rules, since that is the edition I played:

Knocking out a Crinos werewolf with bashing damage works just the same as for anyone else. If you put them past Incapacitated, they will fall unconscious. However, they will stay in Crinos and keep regenerating. Once they are above incapacitated, they can (but don't have to) attempt to wake up (Stamina + Primal Urge vs. 4 + the damage they still have). This is also true for any other form except for a Lupus or Homid Garou in their breed form. You pretty much can't kill a Garou with only bashing damage, it would just keep regenerating. Although that is somewhat unrealistic, so I would probably houserule that you can finish it with clubs given enough time. The rules specifically say that even a club can inflict lethal damage in certain circumstances, like when they are swung by a Crinos Garou or other creature with supernatural strength.

If you knock out a werewolf with lethal damage, they go back into their breed form. At this point, you can kill them by inflicting any kind of further damage (a single health level will be enough). They need hours to heal from this, so you can basically goup de grace them.

Getting them below Incapacitated through aggravated damage kills the werewolf outright.

Channelling rage to remain standing happens at the moment the werewolf would go below incapacitated. The kind of damage used to knock them out doesn't matter for that. If they roll enough successes to remain standing, they never go unconscious, they heal up and go into frenzy immediately. Remember that they can only do this once per scene. A Garou doesn't have to use this at the first instance. If they expect to get up again another way (e. g. regenerating bashing damage or healing from an ally) they can save this for later, but that is risky.

Healing always starts at the bottom, meaning a Garou always heals the least severe damage first. So they can't regeneate lethal damage as long as they still have at least one health level of bashing damage. Remember that regenerating lethal damage during combat (or other stressful activity) requires a stamina roll, while bashing damage heals automatically.

[Talakeal]

Cool. Thanks.

So yeah, it isn't really feasible to knock a werewolf out. Although I guess in newer editions without damage rolls or soak it is a lot easier to keep it down once you get it down.

[Anonymouswizard]

Okay, I went and checked the stats of the first sample Slasher in the book.

He has Athletics 5, and as a Legend always gets his full Defence. That's not very glass cannons.

I also checked the rules for the Jason-inspired Undertakings. The first isn't that impactful, but the second makes all attacks aimed at them deal a maximum of one damage. That's pretty powerful.

I'd like to note note that 7 Strength+3 Brawl/Melee is ten dice on attacks. Also that six dice is 'makes a living at this' level, anybody who sinks five points into Athletics should explain why they have olympic-level skills (which should likely come with Fame and Status). Even second rate athletes are going to be good on the defensive, but that does make some sense.

Finally, where was the werewolf's pack? While I'm not expecting Uratha levels of 'and Jeff's girlfriend's roommate's little brother's sire is also part of the pack' I don't remember Garou really working alone.

[Talakeal]

He has Athletics 5

Must have missed it then. Ok.

...as a Legend always gets his full Defence. That's not very glass cannons.

I also checked the rules for the Jason-inspired Undertakings. The first isn't that impactful, but the second makes all attacks aimed at them deal a maximum of one damage. That's pretty powerful...

Yeah, I guess. It would just be nice if you didn't have to go in for crazy custom powers to make the combat math work like I would expect it to.

I'd like to note note that 7 Strength+3 Brawl/Melee is ten dice on attacks. Also that six dice is 'makes a living at this' level, anybody who sinks five points into Athletics should explain why they have olympic-level skills (which should likely come with Fame and Status). Even second rate athletes are going to be good on the defensive, but that does make some sense.

Right, it would be ten to attack, I got his attack and defenses backward (in the post, not at the table).

Finally, where was the werewolf's pack? While I'm not expecting Uratha levels of 'and Jeff's girlfriend's roommate's little brother's sire is also part of the pack' I don't remember Garou really working alone.

Upstairs in the security office watching on camera and laughing their assess off at their buddy who got his ass beat by some random teenagers.

[Anonymouswizard]

Yeah, I guess. It would just be nice if you didn't have to go in for crazy custom powers to make the combat math work like I would expect it to.

Those are literally standard powers in the book.

Upstairs in the security office watching on camera and laughing their assess off at their buddy who got his ass beat by some random teenagers.

So basically you didn't give him support and were surprised when he got beat to death? As well á apparently not varying their target to get more hits in and leave the PCs carrying around Lethal (or Agg) damage.

[Ignimortis]

Personally, I'd lean towards either V20 or V5. V5 is lower-powered and doesn't exactly understand that Vampire's idea of "Personal Horror" was always a bit flawed, and tends to elicit a response of "Personal Horror? Okay, I'll be the horror, and the NPCs will be the persons." from some, if not most, players. But it is very simple rules-wise, and its' Humanity system is less dull and punishing than any previous editions'.

[Talakeal]

So basically you didn't give him support and were surprised when he got beat to death? As well á apparently not varying their target to get more hits in and leave the PCs carrying around Lethal (or Agg) damage.

Yes. A werewolf against four mortal teenagers with no combat training and improvised weapons should not need support, that is a very surprising outcome to me. I cannot see that outcome occurring in a horror movie, any other RPG I am familiar with including older editions of WoD, or against a similarly sized predator IRL.

[Anonymouswizard]

Yes. A werewolf against four mortal teenagers with no combat training and improvised weapons should not need support, that is a very surprising outcome to me. I cannot see that outcome occurring in a horror movie, any other RPG I am familiar with including older editions of WoD, or against a similarly sized predator IRL.

So they'd have been rolling what, a chance die each or burning through Willpower just to get hits?

[Talakeal]

So they'd have been rolling what, a chance die each or burning through Willpower just to get hits?

The first one or two, yeah, but after that the cumulative -2 dodge penalty is enough that they can hit more often than not.

Again, assuming I was playing it right, which I really hope I was not.

[Anonymouswizard]

The first one or two, yeah, but after that the cumulative -2 dodge penalty is enough that they can hit more often than not.

Again, assuming I was playing it right, which I really hope I was not.

-1 Defence per subsequent attack, reset every round. If the werewolf has decent defence and the PCs have no ranks in Brawl/Melee it should be practically all chance dice, and still mostly them if they have a rank.

[Talakeal]

-1 Defence per subsequent attack, reset every round. If the werewolf has decent defence and the PCs have no ranks in Brawl/Melee it should be practically all chance dice, and still mostly them if they have a rank.

Yeah, -1 does make it better. So I guess we are just in a situation where nobody can hit anyone then!

[Anonymouswizard]

Yeah, -1 does make it better. So I guess we are just in a situation where nobody can hit anyone then!

If Athletics and Melee/Brawl are kept at the same level fights will tend to favour the attacker, as it's easier to raise one stat than two. But yes, two poorly combatants will generally whiff at each other ineffectually, which is actually fairly realistic.

Guns also sidestep defence entirely, until powers get involved. If you thought Athletics 5 was bad wait until you see a vampire with Celerity 5, or a Uratha with Athletics 5 in a hybrid form. But generally 'PCs investigate, find a monster, escape with a few wounds, then grab rifles and set a trap' isn't a terrible loop for a Tier One game.

[Talakeal]

But generally 'PCs investigate, find a monster, escape with a few wounds, then grab rifles and set a trap' isn't a terrible loop for a Tier One game.

Yeah, that is what I was going for. But a decent athletics and the dodge action made the monster go from scary to a joke.

[Anonymouswizard]

Yeah, that is what I was going for. But a decent athletics and the dodge action made the monster go from scary to a joke.

The trick there is to give at least some monsters ways around physical defences. If a group brings multiple professional level athletes (one is workable) or trained combatants then physical attackers. Also remember that they're allowed to switch targets and bolt if necessary, after a round or two the werewolf should have aimed an attack at a less athletic party member and once it got down to a few health boxes exploited it's increased speed to fall back and heal up*.

In this instance it's entirely feasible that they can beat the werewolf up, but are having difficulty pinning him down. Unless the fight is taking place in an actual cage there's probably some escape route even if they have to eat a turn of attacks. Suddenly the narrative changes to 'kill it before it preys on someone else'.

And if defence is really getting out of line just throw some firearms-style attacks their way.

But you're right that CofD is trying to minimise the actual risk of PC death, because that leads to unfinished arcs and players having to write new Aspirations.

* Unless they're a Uratha in Gauru, but at that point they're clearing all bashing and lethal damage every turn

[Easy e]

Thanks all. I would like to avoid d20 style systems. It sounds like V5 might be the way to go.

[Mr Blobby]

V20 (20th anniversary) seems like the most "complete" edition of the game. Like anything you want to do or play it has the tools to play it...

V20 [also called '4th Edition'] is a lineal descendant of the games since 1st Edition in 1991. Same for the three big others [Werewolf/Mage/Changeling], a player familiar with the older versions can get up to speed very quickly - I'm actually right now playing a Mage game with an ST who's using mainly 2nd materials while I'm using 4th and the main arguements we get into is that the Abilities are a little bit different. You can't do that with 5th.

Requiem (the 2000s reboot) 2e is, IMO, the absolute best by a country mile. No metaplot, a streamlined system that V5 tried to copy, fewer but more archetypal Clans*, political affiliation as a character option (with mixed covenant coteries actually working), and a shuffling of 'special' disciplines off to bloodlines rather than major clans. It's also much nicer towards non-kindred PCs, not just other full splats but also mortals, ghouls, and dhamphirs.

*dingdingding*

Which was the key problem. If you wanted to play a more 'localised' and less 'ideological' vampire game where the Deus Ex Elder was much less prevalant and with much more mystery [a lot of Requiem was splats full of 'wierd and wonderful creatures' that an ST may or may not have in their world], you can play Requiem. Vampire 5th tried to ape this while ditching some of the unique selling points which made Masquerade, well Masquerade [as well as ditching backwards compatability] - for example, the 5th Camarilla was quite clearly morphing into the Invinctus. In my opinion, it would have simply have been easier to produce a 'Masquerade/Requiem Conversion splat' where it lays out how Requiem setting/mechanics system can be grafted into a Masquerade game and vice-versa.

V5 has issues with a very narrow definition of 'street level', and V20 suffers from the book being 600ish pages long (being made as a 'one and done' tome for existing fans). Which is an issue with all the 20th anniversary editions, M20 is half as long again.

Yes. Masquerade [as well as Mage/Werewolf] really needs a player 'quickstart' book for players only. I think they exist online, but I've not checked quality of. A player doesn't need the 600-page doorstopper, esp if the ST is handling all the rolls etc.

AFAICT the core combat math is just stupidly broken, and there are a few decisions, like the lack of a perception stat, that make running it a giant PITA.

Masquerade [and the games off it] isn't much better. Odd 'compartmentalisation' of knowledge [wot, I can only roll Academics or Occult?], Firearms with no perception requirement, a situation where being more skilled equals worse results [all about Secondaries] the odd Awareness/Alertness situation, slightly different Ability sheets for different games etc. Every ST I've seen over 15 years has had to do a little bit of homebrewing to get it to work less stupidly.

The problem was combining it with skills.

I can't count the number of times I said something like "Roll Perception + Investigation" only to remember there was no such thing anymore and I needed to find another stat to replace it, and none of the other stats really fit.

You get this if you've 'played around with different WoD games too. This was me recently.

Me: 'Roll Intelligence/Finance; is any of the gear here valuable [and so worth stealing?]
ST: 'What's Finance?'
Me: *looks at sheet* 'Crap, this is Mage, not Vampire!'

[Cue five mins argument to where Finance now lies in a MtA sheet]

[Anonymouswizard]

Thanks all. I would like to avoid d20 style systems. It sounds like V5 might be the way to go.

Why do I have a sudden urge to recommend Monte Cook's World of Darkness?

If continued support isn't important to you then it might also be worth checking out revised and Requiem if you can afford them. If it is, well unfortunately Paradox killed CofD because it did everything they wanted to do with V5 but better.

*dingdingding*

Which was the key problem. If you wanted to play a more 'localised' and less 'ideological' vampire game where the Deus Ex Elder was much less prevalant and with much more mystery [a lot of Requiem was splats full of 'wierd and wonderful creatures' that an ST may or may not have in their world], you can play Requiem. Vampire 5th tried to ape this while ditching some of the unique selling points which made Masquerade, well Masquerade [as well as ditching backwards compatability] - for example, the 5th Camarilla was quite clearly morphing into the Invinctus. In my opinion, it would have simply have been easier to produce a 'Masquerade/Requiem Conversion splat' where it lays out how Requiem setting/mechanics system can be grafted into a Masquerade game and vice-versa.

I will admit there's valid reasons to want to play Masquerade over Requiem, Masquerade is a lot better fir serious lore junkies and tends towards an Illuminati feel rather than a mafia one (and those are just the two that immediately spring to mind). But I think it's telling that V5 basically changed the setting into 'Carthians vs Invictus', which was really one of the worse elements of 1e due to it being similar to Masquerade.

I remember a lot of annoyance on the Onyx Path forums when W5 was being teased specifically because a lot of it's changes seemed to be 'I want to release Forsaken 3e'.

Honestly I do wish that the Conversion Guides were longer, but there was actually an attempt at that very book yhou suggest.

Yes. Masquerade [as well as Mage/Werewolf] really needs a player 'quickstart' book for players only. I think they exist online, but I've not checked quality of. A player doesn't need the 600-page doorstopper, esp if the ST is handling all the rolls etc.]

Honestly once you strip out combat and the power descriptions you could prob ably summarise the actual rules on a couple of sides of A4. But yes, even for CofD I kind of just wish theyh'd release the 2e mortal core without the God Machine Chronicle parts to hand to players.

[comicshorse]

Also, if anyone knows Changeling 20 well or oWoD: Werewolf combat well, please contact me, I have a few rules questions that are driving me up the wall!

I know Changeling the Lost but only First Edition

[Anonymouswizard]

I know Changeling the Lost but only First Edition

Lost is CofD, they're talking about Dreaming.

[Talakeal]

Yeah, we are using Changeling the Dreaming 20th Anniversary edition.

I have SO many rules questions, and the official forum is just crickets.

The worst part is all the stuff they imported straight out of Dark Ages: Fae with no real adjustment to take into account the different system and setting.

[Mr Blobby]

I will admit there's valid reasons to want to play Masquerade over Requiem, Masquerade is a lot better fir serious lore junkies and tends towards an Illuminati feel rather than a mafia one (and those are just the two that immediately spring to mind). But I think it's telling that V5 basically changed the setting into 'Carthians vs Invictus', which was really one of the worse elements of 1e due to it being similar to Masquerade.

It also had the bonus from shearing vampires from 'the whole Caine thing'; this might sound a bit unbelievable but I have seen possible-players [well, one] refuse to play just because of this [and weren't able to be mollified that in this game it was merely a 'myth' amongst several and was something never touched]. There's also a couple of things in Requiem I'd have offered up as sidebar 'optional rules' V5th; for example introducing the idea of 'Blood Potency' [meaning that yes, your character's Generation is not utterly set in stone thus meaning those 6th Gen ancients are just really old, not 'five steps from the source'] or even the Carthians [too staid to be Anarch, too radical for the Camarilla...].

Requiem also had some cool splats which deserved to be re-made for the WoD - stuff like period ones like New Wave Requiem [80s sourcebook] or 'alternative settings' [I loved the idea of 'The Other', like vampirism was like some form of sentient symbiotic parasite which was trying to hijack the host]. Speaking purely personally, think these would have been a money-spinner now the way the now-pointless 'City books' which they were churning out in the 90s.

Lastly, nWoD basically did a proper 'mortals' playbook [simply called 'The World of Darkness'] which even at the time I first saw it struck me as eminently sensible; as long as somebody [like your ST] slid over the table the half-doz 'relevant' extra sheets, you could use your same book to play all the different critters of the world. WoD needs this because there's quite a few of what I call 'mortal plus' folks about, such as Ghouls, Sorcerers, Kinfolk, Arcanium, Inquisition, SAD etc who end up using roughly the same rules.

Which reminds me; the advice about beating a werewolf to death earlier may not apply if the ST in question is not running a 'WtA Garou' - at times the various books built an 'equivalent' using the other game line [for example, a VtM book has Mages built as basically, ghouls with access to more of the flashy Disciplines].

Honestly I do wish that the Conversion Guides were longer, but there was actually an attempt at that very book yhou suggest.

I do remember seeing one waaay back but I couldn't remember if it was legit or just some homebrew. Or even if it was any good.

Honestly once you strip out combat and the power descriptions you could prob ably summarise the actual rules on a couple of sides of A4. But yes, even for CofD I kind of just wish theyh'd release the 2e mortal core without the God Machine Chronicle parts to hand to players.

Thing is, it could be done. I've not played Changeling or Mummy, but all the others mechanically operate fairly similar [the only exception here is Mage Rotes]. Next chronicle I run, I am going to pull apart the official core, slap together a 'quickstart players guide' as a pdf and tell them to just read that. But I suppose that doesn't sell 600-page doorstoppers, does it?

Yeah, we are using Changeling the Dreaming 20th Anniversary edition.

I have SO many rules questions, and the official forum is just crickets.

The worst part is all the stuff they imported straight out of Dark Ages: Fae with no real adjustment to take into account the different system and setting.

To some extent, this is normal. I've never seen two STs run the same game system in the same way. While this does increase 'playability', it also means I normally end up needing to have quite a bit of a chat while doing creation to ensure my PC can actually function as desired in their chronicle.

However, I cannot help you with Changeling, I'm afraid.

[Mechalich]

To some extent, this is normal. I've never seen two STs run the same game system in the same way. While this does increase 'playability', it also means I normally end up needing to have quite a bit of a chat while doing creation to ensure my PC can actually function as desired in their chronicle.

However, I cannot help you with Changeling, I'm afraid.

I'd add that Changeling is a C-tier game that was barely played during its heyday - a time in which many WW splatbooks were produced almost entirely by one person with minimal oversight and no checking to make sure they were compatible with the rest of the own system - and is basically a relic now.

The 20th Anniversary edition was released by Onyx Path in 2017. Considering how Onyx Path works, which is as a nostalgia press far more than a real game company, that means there Rich Thomas held a kickstarter backed by some tiny number of people (potentially less than 1000), and a small group of freelancers was paid basically nothing to compile material, throw it together into modern formatting software, and shovel out a book almost certainly without the whole team ever meeting in person (the WW Wiki lists seventeen authors for the core book, which is absolute madness). Huge issues with the rules and internal consistency is an inevitability.

[Anonymouswizard]

It also had the bonus from shearing vampires from 'the whole Caine thing'; this might sound a bit unbelievable but I have seen possible-players [well, one] refuse to play just because of this [and weren't able to be mollified that in this game it was merely a 'myth' amongst several and was something never touched].

The Caine thing was a massive issue for VtM, because of a mixture of the game basically portraying it as true and never really supplying alternative origin myths (except I think the Settite one). Requiem actually overcorrected in my opinion but I like where it ended up (there's no definitive origin, but hints at an outline and implications of convergent evolution).

There's also a couple of things in Requiem I'd have offered up as sidebar 'optional rules' V5th; for example introducing the idea of 'Blood Potency' [meaning that yes, your character's Generation is not utterly set in stone thus meaning those 6th Gen ancients are just really old, not 'five steps from the source'] or even the Carthians [too staid to be Anarch, too radical for the Camarilla...].

I'm not sure I've said it on this forum, but I really hate attempts to bring Blood Potency into Masquerade, including V5's version. Generation fits the themes of Masquerade, where power is static, the old rule over all, and to gain significant power you have to become what they are.

Blood Potency fits Requiem, where power structures are more fluid and everything needs to evolve with the times. Nobody rules their domain forever, and eventually the pressures will cause you to give up your power, hide away, and likely start pursuing a new goal.

People not liking Generation is another reason I tend to recommend Requiem.

Requiem also had some cool splats which deserved to be re-made for the WoD - stuff like period ones like New Wave Requiem [80s sourcebook] or 'alternative settings' [I loved the idea of 'The Other', like vampirism was like some form of sentient symbiotic parasite which was trying to hijack the host]. Speaking purely personally, think these would have been a money-spinner now the way the now-pointless 'City books' which they were churning out in the 90s.

I like a lot of the work put into CofD historical settings, there was a lot more variety before you even got to Dark Eras (which is amazing, especially The Sundered World and it's relationship to WtF and MtA lore).

I'm slightly annoyed that the Other didn't make it into Requiem 2e as an optional rule, I'd still like to do a game where Others act like Shadows from Wraith.

CofD actually has a ton of cool optional ideas scattered throughout the books, it's the advantage of primarily being designed as a toolbox.

Lastly, nWoD basically did a proper 'mortals' playbook [simply called 'The World of Darkness'] which even at the time I first saw it struck me as eminently sensible; as long as somebody [like your ST] slid over the table the half-doz 'relevant' extra sheets, you could use your same book to play all the different critters of the world. WoD needs this because there's quite a few of what I call 'mortal plus' folks about, such as Ghouls, Sorcerers, Kinfolk, Arcanium, Inquisition, SAD etc who end up using roughly the same rules.

The blue book was always a great thing, mostly because it made every gameline actually compatible. No 'is X actually a skill in this game?'

Which reminds me; the advice about beating a werewolf to death earlier may not apply if the ST in question is not running a 'WtA Garou' - at times the various books built an 'equivalent' using the other game line [for example, a VtM book has Mages built as basically, ghouls with access to more of the flashy Disciplines].

I vaguely remember that VtM 'lupines' were insane. 3+ extra actions per turn FOR FREE, plus a bunch of other Disciplines on top of that.

In CofD I still mostly avoid the Mage rules unless the PCs are running Mages. Instead NPC Magic just get a Power Stat and any dang power I feel like giving them, no matter what line it's from (although Mummy is generally avoided).

I do remember seeing one waaay back but I couldn't remember if it was legit or just some homebrew. Or even if it was any good.

They're official products, and fine. Not amazing, but give just enough advice on 'if you want X in Y'.

Thing is, it could be done. I've not played Changeling or Mummy, but all the others mechanically operate fairly similar [the only exception here is Mage Rotes]. Next chronicle I run, I am going to pull apart the official core, slap together a 'quickstart players guide' as a pdf and tell them to just read that. But I suppose that doesn't sell 600-page doorstoppers, does it?

Yeah, at some point I'm going to make a Player's Reference Sheet for CofD. I think the main issue is that, at the end of the day, WW and OPP have mostly sold their books on lore and so have little incentive to make a basic 'introduction to the actual mechanics' pdf.

[Mr Blobby]

I'm not sure I've said it on this forum, but I really hate attempts to bring Blood Potency into Masquerade, including V5's version. Generation fits the themes of Masquerade, where power is static, the old rule over all, and to gain significant power you have to become what they are.

Yet power is neither static nor do 'the eldest' rule it all. Princes etc rise and fall, and it's not a straight gerontocracy, is it? [Every By Night book I've ever seen has had at least one NPC who was older/higher Gen than the Prince]. An 'elder' Kindred's power isn't just in a decent Gen, a sheaf of Disciplines and an Ability roster with lots of 4s - it's their Backgrounds. It's their Contacts, Resources, Allies, Retainers, Boons etc which keep the Prince on their throne, not their ability to win a cage-fight [though having a Prince who could isn't to be sniffed at].

I'm not sure if I've said this here, but 5th's Blood Potency [as well as the Beckoning and SI] as-is was clearly designed to get rid of the 'Deus Ex Elder' problem as used by lazy STs - or ones who simply made their Camarilla too well, heavy-handed and efficient so 'young' PCs simply don't get a look-in - something worsened by most of the cities outlined are major metros [and thus going to be the most contested]. And/or overplaying the whole 'Jyhad' thing.

Blood Potency fits Requiem, where power structures are more fluid and everything needs to evolve with the times. Nobody rules their domain forever, and eventually the pressures will cause you to give up your power, hide away, and likely start pursuing a new goal.

People not liking Generation is another reason I tend to recommend Requiem.

Eh, it's more a case of not liking every player dump all their Backgrounds into Generation at creation [similar issue; Pure Breed/Avatar] You can still have the whole 'generations knifing each other' thing because an 8th-Gen Prince with around 500XP on their sheet is functionally the same whether she was Embraced by a 7th-Gen in 1755 or she was in fact 9th-Gen then but her vitae has 'matured' a bit since then. But it also breaks the canon principle that there has to be a 'first' vampire.

I like a lot of the work put into CofD historical settings, there was a lot more variety before you even got to Dark Eras (which is amazing, especially The Sundered World and it's relationship to WtF and MtA lore).

I'm slightly annoyed that the Other didn't make it into Requiem 2e as an optional rule, I'd still like to do a game where Others act like Shadows from Wraith.

CofD actually has a ton of cool optional ideas scattered throughout the books, it's the advantage of primarily being designed as a toolbox.

I shall also give a shout-out for the book Damnation City - or 'how to construct your sandpit without killing yourself in the process'. I think it was here which suggested that 'green' PCs should be introduced to the city via a relatively sleepy suburb/satellite town [which removes the Deus Ex Elder issue because they simply don't give a toss about the 'small potatoes' going on in the place] and only after they've 'found their feet' start introducing them into the more major plotlines etc.

Yeah, at some point I'm going to make a Player's Reference Sheet for CofD. I think the main issue is that, at the end of the day, WW and OPP have mostly sold their books on lore and so have little incentive to make a basic 'introduction to the actual mechanics' pdf.

Or more a general 'refrence manual'. All the Flaws/Merits, the Secondaries, Backgrounds etc all collated in one text. The amount of times I've culled stuff from one line to use in my PC in a different one [not for unicorn purposes, mind - just that it 'did' the thing I wanted them to do a lot better than the options I was given].

[Anonymouswizard]

Yet power is neither static nor do 'the eldest' rule it all. Princes etc rise and fall, and it's not a straight gerontocracy, is it? [Every By Night book I've ever seen has had at least one NPC who was older/higher Gen than the Prince].

The Prince is not an absolute authority, and it's generally accepted that kindred of a certain age aren't participating in sect politics so much as manipulating it from the outside. Even then Methuselah Princes are a known phenomenon, generally in a more 'I'm not actually part of the Camarilla but if you don't bug me I'll play by the rules sense' like Mithras.

If the city includes kindred older and more powerful than the Prince then they're generally operating at the highest levels of vampire politics. The Camarilla has ranks above Prince (and the Sabbat above Bishop).

An 'elder' Kindred's power isn't just in a decent Gen, a sheaf of Disciplines and an Ability roster with lots of 4s - it's their Backgrounds. It's their Contacts, Resources, Allies, Retainers, Boons etc which keep the Prince on their throne, not their ability to win a cage-fight [though having a Prince who could isn't to be sniffed at].

The big benefit Generation gave elders was actually resistance to Dominate, coupled with the status inherent to bring of low Generation. But at the same time they're entrenched and have power that you just can't get, with Generation being yet another example.

[QUOTE]I'm not sure if I've said this here, but 5th's Blood Potency [as well as the Beckoning and SI] as-is was clearly designed to get rid of the 'Deus Ex Elder' problem as used by lazy STs - or ones who simply made their Camarilla too well, heavy-handed and efficient so 'young' PCs simply don't get a look-in - something worsened by most of the cities outlined are major metros [and thus going to be the most contested]. And/or overplaying the whole 'Jyhad' thing.[/QUOTE,]

Honestly I'd have taken the opposite direction: make the default PCs Ancillae who can actually call on meaningful resources.

Eh, it's more a case of not liking every player dump all their Backgrounds into Generation at creation [similar issue; Pure Breed/Avatar] You can still have the whole 'generations knifing each other' thing because an 8th-Gen Prince with around 500XP on their sheet is functionally the same whether she was Embraced by a 7th-Gen in 1755 or she was in fact 9th-Gen then but her vitae has 'matured' a bit since then. But it also breaks the canon principle that there has to be a 'first' vampire.

Oh, Generation should not have been a background. All the power stat backgrounds should probably have been bought as Merits, leaving those Background dots free for ties to the setting.

I think the one time I considered introducing blood thickening to Masquerade the twist was that it never went down and advanced logarithmically. So high generation kindred hit their 'cap' early but nobody started unlike with all the benefits.

I shall also give a shout-out for the book Damnation City - or 'how to construct your sandpit without killing yourself in the process'. I think it was here which suggested that 'green' PCs should be introduced to the city via a relatively sleepy suburb/satellite town [which removes the Deus Ex Elder issue because they simply don't give a toss about the 'small potatoes' going on in the place] and only after they've 'found their feet' start introducing them into the more major plotlines etc.

To be fair that's been a thing since Masquerade 1e and it's starter adventure, it's just nice to have it explicitly spelt out.

Or more a general 'refrence manual'. All the Flaws/Merits, the Secondaries, Backgrounds etc all collated in one text. The amount of times I've culled stuff from one line to use in my PC in a different one [not for unicorn purposes, mind - just that it 'did' the thing I wanted them to do a lot better than the options I was given].

Honestly I'd just be happy if players read the damn introduction to a rulebook for once. Or could remember what die to use for attacks in D&D.