What drives a poor reputation for the Rogue class?

[Kane0]

Eh? How would you ability check your way around an alarm, magic mouth or arcane lock spell? What about blindsense, tremorsense and websense?

[JellyPooga]

Eh? How would you ability check your way around an alarm, magic mouth or arcane lock spell? What about blindsense, tremorsense and websense?

Sounds like things that could be "nearly impossible" to me. Some, namely those that lack the proficiency or imagination to even conceive such a thing, might even think that circumnavigating them is actually impossible or magical...you know, a bit like what a Rogue (or anyone with Expertise or other bonuses) can achieve with a high skill check result compared to someone that can't roll over 30 without magical assistance until Tier 3 play.

If you limit what an ability check can do because there isn't a rule saying exactly what every possibility is, then of course a Class that has a large focus on making ability checks is going to look worse. If, on the other hand, you allow a character that cannot fail to roll lower (let alone what they can do with time on their hands) than 25 in Arcana, Perpection, Stealth and with Thieves tools to stop the Barbarian from blundering into an Alarm spell, save the Wizard casting Dispel by marring an Arcane Lock and foiling the careful senses of an entirely mundane (if somewhat large) spider...well, isn't that what high level characters should be capable of? The kind of thing that the rules do actually allow foreven if it's not explicitly coded?

To demonstrate how the game actually guides us, look at Athletics and jump distance. The rules explicitly tell us a character can longjump a number of feet equal to a characters Strength score. A magic spell can triple that. The rules also tell us that an Athletics check can extend that distance. How much? It doesn't say. Why? Because it doesn't have to. The distance an Athletics check will let you jump beyond what is coded is "as far as narratively relevant". A 20 Strength character with a Jump spell can leap across a 60ft chasm. "Impossible!" shouts the crowd as they cheer them on Amazing!. Along comes an athlete an nails a DC:30 check. How much extra distance is that? 10ft? 20ft? What's the world record? No, wrong questions; it's whatever seemed impossible, that looked like magic. "How did he do it?" the crowd should be asking "It must have been magic", but it wasn't. There was a trick, some knack, some use of opportunity, luck or just plain skill beyond the ken of normal folk. If that means they also jump 60ft, replicating the feat that a level 1 spell can achieve, then it might seem like a stretch of human physical capability, but we're talking about characters that exceed those norms. It's also going to mean swimming like a fish, climbing like an ape, running like a cheetah with the endurance of a boar because all that and more is what an Expert in Athletics is capable of in the Heroic Tier as a matter of routine, let alone what the Rogues other 3 fields of Expertise are.

[Elenian]

To demonstrate how the game actually guides us, look at Athletics and jump distance. The rules explicitly tell us a character can longjump a number of feet equal to a characters Strength score. A magic spell can triple that. The rules also tell us that an Athletics check can extend that distance. How much? It doesn't say. Why? Because it doesn't have to. The distance an Athletics check will let you jump beyond what is coded is "as far as narratively relevant". A 20 Strength character with a Jump spell can leap across a 60ft chasm. "Impossible!" shouts the crowd as they cheer them on Amazing!. Along comes an athlete an nails a DC:30 check. How much extra distance is that? 10ft? 20ft? What's the world record? No, wrong questions; it's whatever seemed impossible, that looked like magic. "How did he do it?" the crowd should be asking "It must have been magic", but it wasn't. There was a trick, some knack, some use of opportunity, luck or just plain skill beyond the ken of normal folk. If that means they also jump 60ft, replicating the feat that a level 1 spell can achieve, then it might seem like a stretch of human physical capability, but we're talking about characters that exceed those norms. It's also going to mean swimming like a fish, climbing like an ape, running like a cheetah with the endurance of a boar because all that and more is what an Expert in Athletics is capable of in the Heroic Tier as a matter of routine, let alone what the Rogues other 3 fields of Expertise are.

So if its, narratively relevant, can I jump to the moon? How about across the Atlantic? What about just across the English channel? These all seem pretty impossible to me (not to mention *far* out of scale with my non-skill physical capabilities, since I cannot generally move at supersonic speeds or wield substantial bits of geography as clubs in combat).

There's always this issue, because the 'guidance' offered by the rules really isn't, over whether high level skills are supposed to be like Exalted (write a poem so beautiful that it sends its readers physically to Elysium, Performance DC 30. Hide from the laws of gravitation, thereby flying, Hide DC 32). If they *are*, then Rogues are indeed rather good, Bards are king, and the way we customarily evaluate most features is wrong.

[JellyPooga]

So if its, narratively relevant, can I jump to the moon? How about across the Atlantic? What about just across the English channel? These all seem pretty impossible to me (not to mention *far* out of scale with my non-skill physical capabilities, since I cannot generally move at supersonic speeds or wield substantial bits of geography as clubs in combat).

There's always this issue, because the 'guidance' offered by the rules really isn't, over whether high level skills are supposed to be like Exalted (write a poem so beautiful that it sends its readers physically to Elysium, Performance DC 30. Hide from the laws of gravitation, thereby flying, Hide DC 32). If they *are*, then Rogues are indeed rather good, Bards are king, and the way we customarily evaluate most features is wrong.

In short, yes, you can jump to the moon, Exalted style...if that's the kind of game you want to run/play. Is it likely to be a post-20 epic tier game? Yeah, probably. At least if you want the game to match the other expectations of the genre and at least have a modicum of consistency, but largely speaking D&D isn't great for that style of play. If you're having trouble gauging the expectations of the group and what should or shouldn't be possible given the tone and level of play, then I suggest playing a game or edition that has way more codified rules. 5e is, combat aside, largely narrative led and that is reflected in the rules. When most folk are sitting down to play D&D, they're usually not expecting a space opera style game of Traveller, but it is important to lay out what the style and expectations of the game are; is this a gritty Greyhawk or Ravenloft game? Is it a kitchen-sink fantasy Forgotten Realms game? Magipunk Eberron? Something different?. That's session zero stuff and within the social contract of those expectations will be included the likes of "No you can't play Goku and punch mountains into dust. No, not even with a DC:30 Athletics check", even when those words are not explicitly said and it's all kept in line by the GM setting appropriate DC's. In one game, a DC:30 check may well let you jump 60ft. In another, because it's dramatically appropriate, it won't. And that's fine and as designed. Is it consistent across all genres of D&D? No, it's not supposed to be, because not all genres of D&D are consistent either. It even applies even within the same, generic setting that D&D presents; there are planes of existence that have higher or lower gravity (or no gravity at all!), spells can have different effects on different Planes and so on and so forth.

The fact is that DC's of 25+ are explicitly in the realm of what is not possible for an average character and should be ruled and appreciated as such. What that means in your game is up to you and your GM, but if it has a DC in the mid 20's, it's only achievable by literal magic (in the case of Guidance, we're talking about what amounts to a lengthy magic ritual to accomplish reliably), heroic-level competence or at the very least a lot of time and assistance. That should actually mean something in-world and to the game. A DC:30 lock is not just nearly impossible, it's actually impossible to pick; one of, if not the, finest examples of locksmithing in the world made by a Daedelean level mythic genius. Only magic could possibly open it...that or a lockbreaker that not even money can buy.

A DC:32 ability check might not let you hide (Stealth) from gravity and fly, no, because that's not how hiding works, but it might let you jump (Athletics) so high, far, or accurately (Matrix style) that the difference is for sophists to discuss. A DC: 30 Performance check might not write you a poem to send you to Elysium by pure emotion (unless you're standing near a gate or portal to that place already, in which case it might just do that), but it might attract the attention of a magical creature or minor deity that could get you there. Myths and legends are full of things that high-DC checks can and should accomplish; some might be far fetched, depending on the game style and tone, but "dude that challenges the accomplishments of the gods" is basically what the Rogue is designed around. Prometheus was, after all, a Thief...

[Dr.Samurai]

Essentially, there is a condition in the game that has resulted in two camps.

Due to the open-ended nature of ability checks, there is one side that essentially dismisses ability checks and skills, and another side that thinks you can accomplish all sorts of things with ability checks and skills.

Given that the core books say the DM determines whether something is possible or not, I'm inclined to be in that latter group.

I think the first group is born out of online discourse and the need for credibility. You can't guide someone on how to overcome Websense with an ability check because ultimately that's up to your DM. And when it comes to optimizing, which is a major driver of online discourse, saying something like "Now I can reliably hit DC 25 at-will, which might reasonably bypass nontraditional senses such as Blindsight, Tremorsense, Websense..." feels like a gimme, where as saying "Look at this highly curated spell list I've put together through careful feat selection and multiclassing that lets me do xyz versatile things" feels more like an accomplishment.

As I've said repeatedly, the way we talk about stuff online is only marginally useful at the actual table, because at the table your DM and friends determine what happens, not the rhetorical impositions for discussing optimization online. So the second part (credibility) is a non-issue. And the first part, which is essentially a RAW argument (the rules don't say that) may also be irrelevant for the same reason, your DM decides what is possible. The point of a dice game is to give chances to do something, and the point of leaving the ability check system open ended is NOT to drastically limit what you can do with it.

Tremorsense is defeated in Dune with a special sand-walk. I see no reason why D&D players should unilaterally decide this is not possible with an ability check.

Websense allows a spider to pinpoint the location of a creature in contact with the webbing. Fine. I don't know who simply walks into a Web hazard, but you should walk up to it, not enter it, and just start clearing the way with fire, whether its through multiple torches, or someone's cantrip. No creature in the hazard to pinpoint, and you are slowly making the world a better place.

Blindsight specifically works in different ways depending on the creature and as such I can see a DM ruling it differently. For creatures that are relying on heightened smell and hearing, then moving silently and masking your scent are possibilities for hiding. Moving silently is obvious; masking your scent can be done by purchasing something specifically for this purpose, using materials in the area around you to get their scent on you, or crafting something with an Alchemist's Supplies (you can make soap and perfume, why not some other smelly or non-smelly thing?). The "echolocation" version is a bit trickier. I'm inclined to say cover might work to mask what you are, but seems a bit cartoonish to walk around inside a barrel lol. On the other hand, this study that I just googled two seconds ago and only skimmed through the abstract seems to suggest that background noise can interfere with echolocation. Now, being noisy in order to be sneaky? Probably won't work for most infiltration, but if you just have to bypass a creature with this type of Blindsight, this could be a possibility.

The bigger issue with these senses (apart from Websense) is that it's not always obvious you're contending with it and so you don't know to have the counter-measure up before it's already detected you. If there's a creature burrowed in the ground with Tremorsense, unless you already know it's there it's going to burst out of the ground at you before you can say "I cast Fly" or "Dune Sand Walk!".

With regards to loud hinges, grease them?

Alarm spell... again, how do you know it's there? Are we casting Detect Magic on every window and door we come across, or every 20ft cube? I'd say for this, if you've got reason to believe something is warded this way, send in your trained pet rat and see if it triggers something. It's Tiny, so it triggers the spell. Let it touch a door or window, or enter into an area you think is warded, and see if an audible alarm goes off or if someone reacts to it. This is not bypassing the alarm, only potentially detecting it and alerting the person that cast it (though it could identify who gets alerted, if it's a mental alarm, and provide a target to take out, if possible, rendering the alarm moot). If this is more of a heist situation where you are aware of the Alarm ward, the trick would be to infiltrate at the same time as a decoy. This would require precision timing, which is very much in line with heist stories, but could potentially work. (Alternatively, just have someone or something pinging the alarm constantly, or carry an animal in and release it once you're on the other side so they think that creature set it off.) The scenario will determine if any of these are feasible, but yeah, can't Dispel it without magic.

Not leaving tracks is probably just a function of the Survival skill, given that real life people can and do do this. Again, I see no reason to assume you can't mask or hide your trail with a successful ability check of some kind.

Locate Object is limited to 1000ft, so at a slow pace (to stealth) you're out of its range within 5 minutes. And if this is more of a heist situation with seasoned thieves, you'll know to have a lead-lined box to carry the object in, and you'll time your theft in line with their checking in.

A shapeshifter is acting to be a hostage, which is a contested check, and they have to put on clothing to make the part more believable, which could be a contested check. Doesn't really matter that they are a shapeshifter if you can still intuit that they are a plant.

Alright, off to put furniture together. Be back later.

[KorvinStarmast]

Honestly I think Bard is fine with just jack of all trades and not expertise, not that that alone would level the playing field.

While I agree, you could also scale it down to 1 at 3rd and 1 at 10th and it would still be fine.

[Pex]

Sounds like things that could be "nearly impossible" to me. Some, namely those that lack the proficiency or imagination to even conceive such a thing, might even think that circumnavigating them is actually impossible or magical...you know, a bit like what a Rogue (or anyone with Expertise or other bonuses) can achieve with a high skill check result compared to someone that can't roll over 30 without magical assistance until Tier 3 play.

If you limit what an ability check can do because there isn't a rule saying exactly what every possibility is, then of course a Class that has a large focus on making ability checks is going to look worse. If, on the other hand, you allow a character that cannot fail to roll lower (let alone what they can do with time on their hands) than 25 in Arcana, Perpection, Stealth and with Thieves tools to stop the Barbarian from blundering into an Alarm spell, save the Wizard casting Dispel by marring an Arcane Lock and foiling the careful senses of an entirely mundane (if somewhat large) spider...well, isn't that what high level characters should be capable of? The kind of thing that the rules do actually allow foreven if it's not explicitly coded?

To demonstrate how the game actually guides us, look at Athletics and jump distance. The rules explicitly tell us a character can longjump a number of feet equal to a characters Strength score. A magic spell can triple that. The rules also tell us that an Athletics check can extend that distance. How much? It doesn't say. Why? Because it doesn't have to. The distance an Athletics check will let you jump beyond what is coded is "as far as narratively relevant". A 20 Strength character with a Jump spell can leap across a 60ft chasm. "Impossible!" shouts the crowd as they cheer them on Amazing!. Along comes an athlete an nails a DC:30 check. How much extra distance is that? 10ft? 20ft? What's the world record? No, wrong questions; it's whatever seemed impossible, that looked like magic. "How did he do it?" the crowd should be asking "It must have been magic", but it wasn't. There was a trick, some knack, some use of opportunity, luck or just plain skill beyond the ken of normal folk. If that means they also jump 60ft, replicating the feat that a level 1 spell can achieve, then it might seem like a stretch of human physical capability, but we're talking about characters that exceed those norms. It's also going to mean swimming like a fish, climbing like an ape, running like a cheetah with the endurance of a boar because all that and more is what an Expert in Athletics is capable of in the Heroic Tier as a matter of routine, let alone what the Rogues other 3 fields of Expertise are.

Not to get into that argument again, but for many people yes, they actually do need those rules. You're already admitting people are limiting what skills can do precisely because those rules are lacking. Other people, like you here, enjoy extrapolating imagination of the possibilities making up their own rulings. However, those who don't will insist on no rule - can't do it, and they aren't wrong for it. It's not even DM malice. It's out of general concern of not wanting players to get away with something breaking the game. A spellcaster can cast Jump, but he has to use a resource to do it and the spell description clearly states how it works. For a fighter to jump more than his ST score just because he wants to, the DM doesn't want to set precedent. I've literally had this conversation with two different DMs when I wanted to jump more than my ST score (a druid and a paladin) in the past two weeks. The DMs were dumbfounded on what to do because they had to make it up.

[Blatant Beast]

Tremorsense is defeated in Dune with a special sand-walk. I see no reason why D&D players should unilaterally decide this is not possible with an ability check.

Yet DMs are players that precisely decide what is and is not possible with an ability check, as you yourself acknowledged. If a player has to make a DC 20 Persuasion check in real life with their DM to even afford themselves an opportunity to try a D20 Test with their PC, then definitionally using skills to defeat monster special senses is by it's very nature unreliable, even before considering the mechanics of the die roll.

Websense allows a spider to pinpoint the location of a creature in contact with the webbing. Fine. I don't know who simply walks into a Web hazard, but you should walk up to it, not enter it, and just start clearing the way with fire, whether its through multiple torches, or someone's cantrip.

Uggh. Come on, this "scenario" just shows you are not seriously engaging with the idea. Spiderwebbing is often a Trap! (/Admiral Akbar/)...people in my experience are generally not walking into it willfully. Baldur's Gate 3 of course features bridges made of spiderwebbing just on the cusp of the Underdark, so circumstances could force someone's hand, in this regard.

Doc, coming up with a contrived scenario attributed to another participant in a discussion, specifically with the intent to debunk the contrived position is a rhetorical practice known as the Strawman argument.

Websense, technically works with even a single strand of webbing, so one's location might be compromised by webbing that does not impeded movement. Frodo alerting Shelob to his presence by touching an errant strand of webbing, is a plausible scenario in 5e.

Using a skill to Sandwalk to confuse the senses of Shai Halud, might be an obvious use, if the campaign world has been consistently Dune themed. Consider, however, the classic D&D trope of a mysterious portal that transports the party to a desert instantaneously? The party might not even know the desert has purple worms until after encountering them. (Seriously, both Gygax's, and Greenwood's own D&D campaigns had portals leading to strange places, sometimes other Prime Material worlds or beyond)

Alarm spell... again, how do you know it's there? Are we casting Detect Magic on every window and door we come across, or every 20ft cube?

Detect Magic is a Ritual spell, that has a Duration of Concentration 10 minutes. The largest impediment to using Detect Magic, is wanting to Concentrate on a different spell. That said, in my experience as a DM, my friends often have Detect Magic up and running when exploring a new area.

Not leaving tracks is probably just a function of the Survival skill, given that real life people can and do do this. Again, I see no reason to assume you can't mask or hide your trail with a successful ability check of some kind.

One thing to keep in mind is a Survival check is probably not going to help very much when the trail evidence you are trying to hide is the "clean up on aisle 5" mess of an ogre's brains being spread across a wide area by being killed by the party.

A party with Pass Without Trace active, can march into Cragmaw Castle, (part of a Starter Set module), and start clearing rooms, and not leave bloody footprints behind that point out where they have been, (and where they may be going).

If Pulp Fiction has taught us anything, is don't rush Mr. Wolf, cleaning up the mess from murder takes time. Skill use takes time, and time during an Adventuring Day is generally limited. Many goals an Adventuring Group want to achieve have a clock on them; there is often a time sensitive component to any particular scenario, even if that might be a DM rolling on a Wandering Monster chart.

Locate Object is limited to 1000ft, so at a slow pace (to stealth) you're out of its range within 5 minutes.

Locate Object is the definition of a niche spell. The spell, actually, becomes more useful the more skilled at evading notice the target is. Take a foe like Artemis Entreri from the Drizz't novels. Artemis is a cunning Assassin, skilled at masking their presence.

If the players know that Artemis has a particular keepsake, an object they have on themselves constantly, even if Artemis themself might have a Nondetection spell effect, might hide their trail, or be in disguise, the Locate Object spell could at least point out the direction Artemis went in.

Locate Object, is the type of spell that a cleric or druid prepares, only if they know the spell might be useful. Otherwise, the spell will not be prepared. (It is a good spell to put on a scroll, however.)

[Dr.Samurai]

Yet DMs are players that precisely decide what is and is not possible with an ability check, as you yourself acknowledged. If a player has to make a DC 20 Persuasion check in real life with their DM to even afford themselves an opportunity to try a D20 Test with their PC, then definitionally using skills to defeat monster special senses is by it's very nature unreliable, even before considering the mechanics of the die roll.

I've already addressed this; you're reiterating to me a position I've already outlined as one of the camps.

Uggh. Come on, this "scenario" just shows you are not seriously engaging with the idea. Spiderwebbing is often a Trap! (/Admiral Akbar/)...people in my experience are generally not walking into it willfully.

It was described as an area choked with webs, populated by creatures with websense. As usual, no mention of how the superior class would overcome it; it's just saying the rogue can't do it. So easy to poo-poo non-casters.

If it is someone being trapped in webbing as you're claiming, I'd love to hear how they prevent the spiders from being alerted to their exact location. How does the Bard overcome Websense while they are trapped in the webbing? And if it is a trap as you're saying, hopefully the rogue has a chance to detect it.

Baldur's Gate 3 of course features bridges made of spiderwebbing just on the cusp of the Underdark, so circumstances could force someone's hand, in this regard.

Sure, or they could try and find another way. The details will matter, but the point is that if you come up to a hallway choked with webbing, you don't have to alert the spiders.

Doc, coming up with a contrived scenario attributed to another participant in a discussion, specifically with the intent to debunk the contrived position is a rhetorical practice known as the Strawman argument.

And this is known as being overly sensitive. I didn't debunk anything with that line, because there was no argument being made. A scenario was put forth, and I gave a way I think could work to overcome it. While we're lecturing people though, rebutting my claim with "it's a trap" when the original scenario was "hallway choked with webbing" is known as Moving the Goalposts.

Websense, technically works with even a single strand of webbing, so one's location might be compromised by webbing that does not impeded movement. Frodo alerting Shelob to his presence by touching an errant strand of webbing, is a plausible scenario in 5e.

I'm not making the claim that x method will work all the time and is the only way to do something so... yeah, I agree with you, it's plausible.

I think it could also be plausible to destroy the webbing with fire. Whether the DM treats this as a creature being in contact with the webbing is up to the DM.

Using a skill to Sandwalk to confuse the senses of Shai Halud, might be an obvious use, if the campaign world has been consistently Dune themed. Consider, however, the classic D&D trope of a mysterious portal that transports the party to a desert instantaneously? The party might not even know the desert has purple worms until after encountering them. (Seriously, both Gygax's, and Greenwood's own D&D campaigns had portals leading to strange places, sometimes other Prime Material worlds or beyond)

I already made this point so... we agree? That's correct, the bigger issue to me is whether the players will know ahead of time that something is needed, and what that is. As another example, the shrieker is indistinguishable from a mushroom when it's not moving. But... after you've come across them a couple of times, you might start just killing every 5ft mushroom that looks like those shrieking mushrooms you've seen before you get too close.

Detect Magic is a Ritual spell, that has a Duration of Concentration 10 minutes. The largest impediment to using Detect Magic, is wanting to Concentrate on a different spell. That said, in my experience as a DM, my friends often have Detect Magic up and running when exploring a new area.

Indeed. Concentration conflicts with other spells you may want up, and ritually casting it will eat into other spell durations or you won't have the spell running if you're walking and casting at the same time. And I'd argue you're not being stealthy if you're performing verbal components.

One thing to keep in mind is a Survival check is probably not going to help very much when the trail evidence you are trying to hide is the "clean up on aisle 5" mess of an ogre's brains being spread across a wide area by being killed by the party.

A party with Pass Without Trace active, can march into Cragmaw Castle, (part of a Starter Set module), and start clearing rooms, and not leave bloody footprints behind that point out where they have been, (and where they may be going).

Yes, this is a function of Pass Without Trace. But so long as we're appealing to spells, the cantrip Prestidigitation will easily clean the bottoms of your boots, does not require Concentration or a spell slot, and is instantaneous.

If Pulp Fiction has taught us anything, is don't rush Mr. Wolf, cleaning up the mess from murder takes time. Skill use takes time, and time during an Adventuring Day is generally limited. Many goals an Adventuring Group want to achieve have a clock on them; there is often a time sensitive component to any particular scenario, even if that might be a DM rolling on a Wandering Monster chart.

Agreed, and is a huge variable from game to game.

Locate Object is the definition of a niche spell.

I'm speaking to the scenario that was provided. Assuming the rogue was able to move away each turn (not guaranteed, but for the sake of discussion), they'd have to be checking on that object at least every five minutes to detect the object before the rogue was out of range of the spell. And as I said there's a lead-lined box that will stop it, assuming the object fits there.


The point is not that these are fool-proof or will always work. It's that we can imagine that they could work. For a game of make-believe and chance, the online community likes to say a lot of things are not even possible.

[Psyren]

Eh? How would you ability check your way around an alarm, magic mouth or arcane lock spell? What about blindsense, tremorsense and websense?

- Arcane Lock just increases the DC, get good. In the worst case scenario, take 20.
- Magic Mouth relies on audible or visual conditions within 30 feet. Being hidden or disguised can fool it, as can finding another route into the area.
- Alarm triggers on any Tiny or larger creature. If it goes off, you can fool the target into thinking an animal set it off. Even if it went off mentally, you can Perceive if a sleeping creature is waking up for whatever reason.

As for blindsense/tremorsense/websense - those typically have drawbacks of their own, such as limited range and/or not being precise enough to count as sight.

Spells are not insurmountable silver bullets; a big problem around here is that they're seen that way instead of thinking critically about how to approach them or even what happens after their effect occurs.

[Blatant Beast]

The point is not that these are fool-proof or will always work. It's that we can imagine that they could work. For a game of make-believe and chance, the online community likes to say a lot of things are not even possible.

This dovetails into the larger point I was making, "the online community" is too broad of a generalization, to be a useful distinction.

I'm the sort of DM that will allow Skills and Ability Checks be effective and do extra-ordinary things, and indeed I have argued in favor of that viewpoint in the Playground. Even so, I can recognize that some games would not allow an ability check no matter how high the final total is, to defeat an ability like tremorsense.

A DM that views skill usage through the mundane lens of experience, and reads spells and abilities through a lens of the literal text, is not performing some extreme example of interpretation, even if one can make a credible case that such a viewpoint is probably not the best standard for 5e.

My arguments in this thread have never been predicated off the idea that "skills suck". Indeed my view is quite the opposite, skills can be quite good, (perhaps even better than spells in certain circumstances), but this requires a game that is receptive to the possibilities and a clever player.

Cleverness is a quality of the player. If a solution to a dilemma requires cleverness, and none of the players posses this quality, then it may not matter if the PC's have the exact abilities needed to solve the issue in a straightforward manner.

There are very few abilities that a Rogue has, that can not be replicated by other means. In general, this is true for many abilities in 5e, Rogues are not alone in this.

[Kane0]

Okay so...
- An ability check could feasbily do nothing, or everything it needs to, depending on the DM (and the DC)
- Often it is the player that is required to be clever/savvy/imaginative rather than the character in order to attempt a check (or persuade the DM)
- In order to address magic a certain level of knowledge of the spells in question is necessary on part of both the player and character (lets set aside metagaming and homebrew for now)
- In the event that all this lines up, theres nothing much special about the rogue specifically being able to do so and other classes unable to.

Am I getting this right?

[JellyPooga]

- In the event that all this lines up, theres nothing much special about the rogue specifically being able to do so and other classes unable to.

Addressing this specifically, the particular ability of the Rogue above and beyond other classes is earlier access to and more numerous Expertise, plus Reliable Talent in Tier 3 being a significant shift in assumptions on what ability checks can and will achieve in the game when a Rogue is present, above and beyond what other characters with Expertise can and do achieve when time is an issue (because time is the primary resource that RT saves).

Further, it's probably worth pointing out that Rogues have had access to Guidance (plus an additional 1st level Cleric or Druid spell and cantrip) for longer than other classes (except Bard) have had access to Expertise. If we're calling out Expertise for not being unique to Rogue, we must also call out any Cantrip that might be relevant to the discussion as being equally ubiquitous without invoking specific subclasses or multiclass builds.

With Feats in mind, there are also specific builds that work around some criticisms or holes in the Rogue arsenal in the same way that, say, calling out Rune Knight or another subclass detracts from Rogues USP. Wood Elf Magic and Earth Genasi both grant PWT, Svirfneblin has access to Nondetection, Drow High Magic offers Detect and Dispel Magic, among others.

[LudicSavant]

With Feats in mind, there are also specific builds that work around some criticisms or holes in the Rogue arsenal in the same way that, say, calling out Rune Knight or another subclass detracts from Rogues USP. Wood Elf Magic and Earth Genasi both grant PWT, Svirfneblin has access to Nondetection, Drow High Magic offers Detect and Dispel Magic, among others.

By all means, let's get specific! Let's say, oh, a level 11 Assassin Rogue -- what skills do they have (and which do they have Expertise in), what feats and race and point buy choices?