OOTS #1301 - The Discussion Thread

[gatemansgc]

: YOU COULD HAVE DONE THAT THIS WHOLE TIME?!?

yep i can totally see next comic starting with belkar uttering something similar to that LOL

[Kardwill]

Why? Sereni has an entire hill, surrouding area, and the earth beneath to build dungeons in. Why not have 10-20 feet of earth (at least) between the nearest points of each one? Certianliy, the Final Dungeon should not have any other dungeon spaces anywhere near close enough for this type of travel. Assumption on my part? Yes. But my assumption is based on Serini not being a complete idiot.

Serini CREATED an entire hill. We know that the rift was at the surface, and that the rocks of the ravine is magic "multidimensional stone" (thanks @Ruck for that callback), so it's likely the region was terraformed to build a hill on top of the Gate.
Also note that the other dungeons can be pretty much anywhere, since their entrance is a teleport spell. Which means that hill just has to contain "Backstage" and the Final Dungeon. (The Final Dungeon couls also be under another artificial hill, far from Kraagor's tomb, sure, since its entrance is also a Teleport spell, but I don't think so : Serini wouldn't want to have her homebase too far from the Gate she's guarding, just in case someone managed to find a way to bypass her deception.)
It also means that the Final Dungeon can't be too deep, since it has to be above the original ground level. It is inside the hill, not under the hill. But yeah, there is probably a healthy chunk of magicrock between the Gate and the surface.

TE wonders what happend here, shrugs and continues on, eventually reaching the gateroom where the Order is waiting...

Or we'll just see one panel of X and RC arriving somewhat singed to the Gateroom, with a "Well, that was annoying" comment, and that's all we'll ever see of "Team Evil's extraordinary adventures in the Final Dungeon of Doom".
We know Serini thinks her dungeon will just weaken and delay Xykon, but can't stop him.

Honestly, the one that seems the most strange is the polar ray. V got hit full on, there's no save, so full damage. Yet, doesn't appear to be significantly damaged at that point (I see no noticable damage indicators in 1298). [/URL]

If you look close, it looks like V has 2 "holes" in their chest. And the polar ray looked like it hurt when V tanked it.
V still has these holes (along with a LOT of fire damage) on the current page. So maybe V just has that many hitpoints?

[danielxcutter]

Why would Calder blasting a hole in the mountain that Team Evil can then walk through easily be a good story in the first place? That would be an instant death sentence to everyone in the world, literally; when the Order doesn't have a great chance of beating Xykon on his own even in ideal situations, how would making Team Evil with a nearly full tank of spells and the OotS at their weakest end well?

[b_jonas]

At the minimum, the bauble gives V a +1 to caster level checks (which dispel is). That alone probably puts V at +17 to the greater dispel check.

The DC is probably 26 or 27.

No, it would be 27 if Miron were as low level as Vaarsuvius. Miron is more likely higher level, likely low epic, so the dispel check only had like one in three chance to succeed.

That probably hurt his jaw, but Caulder is lucky he decided to try chewing instead of swallowing. As far as I know, Greater Dispel Magic would have worked on Bloodfeast even inside a dragon's stomach, right?

I don't think so. Spells usually can't target items in someone else's inventory.

[danielxcutter]

No, it would be 27 if Miron were as low level as Vaarsuvius. Miron is more likely higher level, likely low epic, so the dispel check only had like one in three chance to succeed.

"Vampires have LA +8 therefore the Vector Legion would have been low-epic" is... rather unconvincing if you ask me. I think it's more likely that they're each around CR 16~17ish, accounting for having player character-equivalent WBL in items.

I don't think so. Spells usually can't target items in someone else's inventory.

This is right though. It's more about lacking line of sight/line of effect in this case, but the result - "it wouldn't have worked if Calder'd swallowed Bloodfeast" is the same.

[DavidBV]

This encounter is looking good now, the problem is how unexpectedly it has costed the Order a lot of resources. Both mechanical (high level spell slots) and narrative (Bloodfeast). Any potential advantage over Team Evil is lost now.

On the other hand, and I believe Elan would agree, I can't see two consecutive epic battles happening, pacing should go down for at least 20 strips before major action comes. But this comic has always been unpredictable, so who knows.

[Kardwill]

On the other hand, and I believe Elan would agree, I can't see two consecutive epic battles happening, pacing should go down for at least 20 strips before major action comes. But this comic has always been unpredictable, so who knows.

... That's a good point, actually. Dungeon sightseeing is nice, but it was mostly a setup for the Calder encounter, so I doubt we'll see much more of it. Something else will probably happen between this fight and the X+RC showdown, and I doubt it will just be planning and downtime (since those have already been front and center in the strips just before the Dungeon Delve).

[MaverickMopete]

: YOU COULD HAVE DONE THAT THIS WHOLE TIME?!?

: No, not "this whole time". Only when expending the sixth-level spell slot required to do so would be the most expeditious way to conclude a battle.

[b_jonas]

"Vampires have LA +8 therefore the Vector Legion would have been low-epic" is... rather unconvincing if you ask me. I think it's more likely that they're each around CR 16~17ish, accounting for having player character-equivalent WBL in items.

I wasn't thinking of the level adjustment for vampires. It's more that they are much more wealthy than the Order, with access to more varied magic items. They are also ruling half of a continent, with armies answering them, including a private division for Tarquin specifically trained for ominous plot-critical reveals. They definitely seem to be more powerful than the Order, so I presume they're higher level.

[Liquor Box]

A couple of people have commented that Calder is finished, but I think he's improved his position in the last round. Sure, he failed to dispose of Bloodfeast, but he has got rid of the Beholder (for the moment at least), and got another dragon breath off on the party without taking any damage himself. He's had three breaths on them now, so some must be close to death by now (the fact that none have died is pretty good evidence that Calder isn't as powerful of a dragon as people thought IMO).

Also, this fight has gone some time now, and Serini hasn;t participated at all. I wonder if none of her attacks can hurt Calder, or if there is some other reason why she's not doing anything.

[Kardwill]

I dunno. "Secretly ruling half a continent" kinda fits with a lvl 15-20 evil party, I think.

[Kardwill]

Also, this fight has gone some time now, and Serini hasn;t participated at all. I wonder if none of her attacks can hurt Calder, or if there is some other reason why she's not doing anything.

If it was one of my tables, she would be suffering from "NPC syndrome" (the powerful NPCs do their own thing, so that the PCs battle the main threat by themselves), but here, dunno.

She may simply be too old for that kind of direct fighting against a dragon. Her engagements against the paladins and against the order were surprise skirmish using any advantage she could muster, not "frontal epic rogue assault"

[danielxcutter]

I wasn't thinking of the level adjustment for vampires. It's more that they are much more wealthy than the Order, with access to more varied magic items. They are also ruling half of a continent, with armies answering them, including a private division for Tarquin specifically trained for ominous plot-critical reveals. They definitely seem to be more powerful than the Order, so I presume they're higher level.

Eh, they can't be using all the money on their own gear even with all much they squeeze out of the populations, and we've seen Tarquin basically set money on fire on various indulgences.

[rasborry]

Go, V!

Can we squeeze in a third transformation for Bloodfeast in this fight? It's very hype every time it happens.

[Reltzik]

Calder just made a big mistake. The "little" snack wasn't anything of the sort, and his appetite is definitely at risk of getting spoiled.

[KorvinStarmast]

Calder just made a big mistake. The "little" snack wasn't anything of the sort, and his appetite is definitely at risk of getting spoiled.

Never eat anything bigger than your head.

[Dummy]

Does this put V back into the lust category of Belkar's proto-brain?

Goddammit... Why did you sat that?

Now I am obligated to ship them. How do you even come up with a name for this kind of ship? Both Vaarsuvius and V both are horrible to combine with Belkar.

[KorvinStarmast]

This encounter is looking good now, the problem is how unexpectedly it has costed the Order a lot of resources. Both mechanical (high level spell slots) and narrative (Bloodfeast). Any potential advantage over Team Evil is lost now.

On the other hand, and I believe Elan would agree, I can't see two consecutive epic battles happening, pacing should go down for at least 20 strips before major action comes. But this comic has always been unpredictable, so who knows.

Goddammit... Why did you sat that?

Now I am obligated to ship them. How do you even come up with a name for this kind of ship? Both Vaarsuvius and V both are horrible to combine with Belkar.

Velkar.
Belsuvius.
Belkuvius.

But it ain't gonna happen.

[Somniloquist]

It's Belvaar. Don't ask me how I know that.

[Peelee]

It's Belvaar. Don't ask me how I know that.

How do you know that?

[bunsen_h]

The dragon is still alive, right? Looks like Bloodfeast was safely ejected into unoccupied space without harming him.

You just have to look at the dragon's eyes (which is usually a bad idea, in-story). No 'X's.

Vaarsuvius is deliberately helping Belkar. Character growth!

I don't think that V has any particular intention in that regard. It's a consequence, but not a goal.

I'm still not at all seeing how on earth "leave a giant hole" works here. This is an underground dungeon, with no physical connection to any other location in the Hollow (and required going through a magic portal to get here). The odds that there is a thin wall separating this dungeon and one that TE is in or will be entering soon is very very close to zero. It would defeat the entire purpose of having all those dungeons, and requiring that someone get all the marks from exploring all of them before the portal to the Final Dungeon appears, if one could enter the Final Dungeon just by battering down a single wall somewhere.

It would be a very cartoony effect: a series of dragon-shaped holes through multiple walls/doors. I don't think Rich would go that route; it would undermine the tone of the comic.

[Charity322]

Will the greater dispel be permanent or only last until the spell expires?

[Tzardok]

Will the greater dispel be permanent or only last until the spell expires?

Dispells are instantaneous, like fireballs or healing magic. The effects of those also don't end.

[Frozenstep]

Will the greater dispel be permanent or only last until the spell expires?

The dispel has completely gotten rid of the normally-permanent magical effect that was keeping Bloodfeast as a lizard. Bloodfeast will remain a dinosaur unless more magic is used, or it dies.

[gbaji]

One may, of course. But with a nickname like V's, who needs pronouns?

Yeah. It's not like you can get shorter than "V" or "V's".

Serini CREATED an entire hill. We know that the rift was at the surface, and that the rocks of the ravine is magic "multidimensional stone" (thanks @Ruck for that callback), so it's likely the region was terraformed to build a hill on top of the Gate.
Also note that the other dungeons can be pretty much anywhere, since their entrance is a teleport spell. Which means that hill just has to contain "Backstage" and the Final Dungeon. (The Final Dungeon couls also be under another artificial hill, far from Kraagor's tomb, sure, since its entrance is also a Teleport spell, but I don't think so : Serini wouldn't want to have her homebase too far from the Gate she's guarding, just in case someone managed to find a way to bypass her deception.)
It also means that the Final Dungeon can't be too deep, since it has to be above the original ground level. It is inside the hill, not under the hill. But yeah, there is probably a healthy chunk of magicrock between the Gate and the surface.

Exactly. Based on the flashback, the original rift/gate was at surface level. That means that Serini had the entire hill and hollow built specifically as the defenses around the gate. The gateroom itself therefore, should be some hundred or so feet from any surface. The rest of the Final Dungeon complex can be pretty much anywhere in relation to things, but it seems like if you were building such a defense, and wanted to make sure that the only possible way to get there was via the "explore every dungeon and open the magic portal", you would take great pains to ensure that no part of the Final Dungeonn is anywhere close to any part of any other dungeon (or the surface).

Oh! Good call on the other dungeons too. Given the swapovers, they could actually be anywhere. Presumably somewhat close, but technicalliy do not need to actually be in the hollow itself, or even within multidimensional stone. It doesn't matter if folks can magic their way in/out of them, really, since the trap still has to be spung on each, and it's not like ghostforming around for miles in the area looking for random dungeons to enter is actually faster than just opening a door and going in.

So yeah. Likely that only backstage and the Final Dungeon are actually physically located right there in the Hollow itself. And that thing is huge. Plenty of room for backstage and a very large Final Dungeon, while still maintaining significant amounts of physical stone/earth between each.

Or we'll just see one panel of X and RC arriving somewhat singed to the Gateroom, with a "Well, that was annoying" comment, and that's all we'll ever see of "Team Evil's extraordinary adventures in the Final Dungeon of Doom".

Yup. That's an equal possiblity. Narratively, the author has shown us the defenses, so we don't really need to see them in operation. It's enough to say "there's a ton of traps the bad guys will have to get through", and then cut to the scene where a damaged/weakened TE arrives in the gateroom. The traps will have done their job of weakening TE and making it more of a fair fight (which is also the whole point).

If you look close, it looks like V has 2 "holes" in their chest. And the polar ray looked like it hurt when V tanked it.
V still has these holes (along with a LOT of fire damage) on the current page. So maybe V just has that many hitpoints?

Also a good catch. We know that sometimes healing potions heal clothing as well, so does that mean V hasn't healed the damage from the polar ray yet? Or has, and Rich is leaving the holes in V's clothes? Or maybe V has just partially healed the damage?

Dunno. I think that either there was a really really bad damage roll on that polar ray, or V has some protection/resistance we weren't told about, or there was a potion/heal use off panel that we didn't see. While there was presumably time between the polar ray hit and the antimagic field hit for V to have been healed somewhat, V seemed to be busy that whole time (V casts cone of cold, calder polar ray's and then breathes, then V casts lighting, then is hit with anti-magic), and isn't heal a ranged touch spell? V's up in the air the whole time too.

Eh... Got lucky with the damage dice?

Why would Calder blasting a hole in the mountain that Team Evil can then walk through easily be a good story in the first place? That would be an instant death sentence to everyone in the world, literally; when the Order doesn't have a great chance of beating Xykon on his own even in ideal situations, how would making Team Evil with a nearly full tank of spells and the OotS at their weakest end well?

Yeah. I'm not sure what the storytelling point of "And TE gets there faster than expected and without taking damage or expending resources". I do, however, get the whole "We don't need to see the details of TE dealing with the traps", but there are better/easier ways to deal with that.

A couple of people have commented that Calder is finished, but I think he's improved his position in the last round. Sure, he failed to dispose of Bloodfeast, but he has got rid of the Beholder (for the moment at least), and got another dragon breath off on the party without taking any damage himself. He's had three breaths on them now, so some must be close to death by now (the fact that none have died is pretty good evidence that Calder isn't as powerful of a dragon as people thought IMO).

Sure. But he's been taking steady damage the whole time. While Roy's sword missed, Belkar got another stab in, and Haley got in two arrow hits, just this round. His "position" is still "on the ground, dealing with a large dinosaur that can keep me from flying up, so I'm vulnerable to melee attacks". And yeah, I full expect the paladins to show up in the next strip or two.

Bloodfeast, on the other hand, could use a heal.

Also, this fight has gone some time now, and Serini hasn;t participated at all. I wonder if none of her attacks can hurt Calder, or if there is some other reason why she's not doing anything.

Yeah. She's pretty much been standing around the whole time. She does have ranged attacks, and some damage is better than none, so.... yeah. Not sure what she's doing. Hopefully, we'll see something from her coming up as well.

[Shining Wrath]

I'm guessing we'll see a story arc of Team Evil making their way through part of Serini's funhouse, with the point being MitD character growth; he will be given a few lessons in how Xykon and Redcloak really don't care if he gets hurt / suffers pain as they use him for Barbarian Trap Clearing - "walk straight down this corridor and trigger all the traps". Grayview will have some sardonic observations about that being just how life is, and Oona may offer some comments on how MitD's monster type has certain immunities or resistances, which will get the MitD identifier crowd all in a tizzy.

What we'll learn is that TE is making their way through, slowly, and that MitD is being slowly prepped to switch sides at a suitably dramatic moment, probably the final battle.

If the final battle is to take place at the final gate, at some point TE has to realize they are being tricked.

[skim172]

Hmmm....

Does Dispel work on dead creatures? Cuz if yes ... I think V jumped the gun here.

I mean, I love Bloodfeast the Exterminator and would weep hot tears if he died ... but if they had allowed Calder to chew up Bloodfeast the salamander, swallow him, end up in Calder's GI tract ... and then V cast Dispel ... what are the D&D rules for damage inflicted by a giant dinosaur materializing inside your stomach? Is that survivable?

This sounds like a fascinating method of covert assassination. Polymorph a dinosaur into a delicious chicken, roast for an hour and 15 minutes on medium, serve it to a paranoid emperor. And then later that night, when the emperor walks through the anti-magic gate to his private chambers - chunks of Diplodocus explode out of his belly like a can full of springs.

Or ... would the Polymorph Dispel still work post-digestion? When the constituent nutrients of dinosaur have been broken down and distributed all throughout your hated enemy's body, stored in their fat cells and muscle tissue and bones and organs - and then with one Dispel, all the molecules return to their original size and composition ...

Long story short: Hank Pym should be the most dangerous man in the cosmos.

[arimareiji]

Does this put V back into the lust category of Belkar's proto-brain?

Goddammit... Why did you sat that?

Now I am obligated to ship them. How do you even come up with a name for this kind of ship? Both Vaarsuvius and V both are horrible to combine with Belkar.

One of the great romances of all time, as I noted earlier.

(I just wish we had an emoji for a devilish grin…)

Perhaps the greatest sacrifice yet in OotS: V does this, knowing that they're running a huge risk of permanently switching the lump of neurons in Belkar's proto-brain back from Hate to Love/Lust.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html

Edit, because now I'm feeling truly evil: And now I belatedly wonder where Durkon sits in Belkar's proto-brain, after the vampire arc. (Though I wouldn't be a tiny bit surprised if someone has wondered this before me, considering Durkon was the one who V explained this theory to.) At least Hilgya can have the comfort of knowing Durkon is now caught in a three-way 'ship?

[Shining Wrath]

So, possible happy ending for Belkar - his body is ruined, and V polymorphs him into something that's a construct. He no longer breathes, but he's still around, and maybe V chooses a construct that is the appropriate sex for V and Belkar to live happily ever after.

[Ionathus]

Belkar's greatest moment of character growth will be his evolution from a proto-brain to a pseudo-brain, one that can register a third category for people:

Grudging, Sarcastic, Dragged-Kicking-And-Screaming Quasi-Respect